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This country and most 'civilised' countries just keep managing to find new ways to piss me off. I was doing some poking around as you do when you have hopes and dreams and for shits and giggles I've been looking at the tax calculators out there as well as trying to find information on the actual percentages and whatnot on income ( which predictably seems to be pretty difficult ) and if all this data is to believed not only is our economics situation ridiculous but the middle class in particular get robbed for just about everything they have.

Here's what I've found so far, I'd be happy to talk to other UK about this and see if it confirms my suspicions.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm

According to the UK government and anybody who supports taxation of the rich it seems to me that the 'rich' are people with middle class incomes who have a huge chunk of their money taken from them and then the people who are actually wealthy barely feel a thing because of the amount of money that's going to be coming in for them each year and all the investment choices they can make even if they paid honestly without using any loopholes.

Don't these fuckers know anything about percentages? If it is 40% that's going to be taking out a lot more from someone who's earning say £100,000 - £300,000 than somebody who earns £600,000 - £1,000,000 a year and can increase that amount practically any time they like especially if they take advantage of speculation and know how to do it. My favourite example of this little trick is when there was an article I saw about Mark Zuckerberg shorting on his own stock because he knew the price would fall and netting himself some ridiculous profit.

Seriously, help me out with the maths here guys, I really wish and hope I'm wrong about the middle class getting screwed, thank Satoshi for Bitcoin otherwise I would have no savings if I somehow managed to get past the £100,000 mark because that seems to be the moment when everything goes to hell for somebody who's trying to climb the ladder. I'm not surprised people who get success just leave the UK and go to the Caribbean somewhere because the tax rates here look ridiculous.

Isn't this called insider trading? Thought that was illegal.

Getting robbed, with no means of defense, or revolution.

No idea, he did do it though, so he must have found some sort of loophole to exploit.


Going by the maths I've seen it is much worse being middle class than poor or rich here because there's that much income taken off you every time you earn that much you end up going in the poor category anyway, that's sort of my point I guess, I'm just staggered at how bad it is when I see the actual maths and I'm just going by estimates really too, the worse part is a lot of western countries are like this.

Middle class means easily taxed and robbed, lower class is thank you and keep being there, Upper class is can we have a dinner with you and pay for it. The more you have, as in money, the more you get and the less you spend. It is capitalism and the UK is in it. UK is in my opinion a shit country if you are honest and middle class.

The UK is a mess with political and economic corruption, biggest criminals and gangsters running the show. Get out while you still can, the island is sinking.

The problem is that people vote for policies and then someone has to pay the tax for those policies.  There is no point complaining about the tax unless you are also prepared to give up the goodies that we get in return.

The 1% are the big payers of tax - they pay about 30% of all income tax and you'll find that they are the big payers of capital gains tax as well.  The middle class, the people who vote for the policies, get off lightly.

What are these classes you talk about? How much money you have?

All things considered UK is actually not that bad in comparison with other nations.

There is an NHS. Delays at the emergency rooms are shocking, but at least there is 'free' health care.

Politicians are not untouchable, some do go to jail when they break the law.

Alcohol consumption rules here are not as strict as say in the US. (Can drink from 16, can buy from 18)

Most cops here don't carry guns.

Most people are pretty honest here too  ::).

Property ownership: you do actually get perpetual land ownership here with freehold properties, something that is not possible in places like China.

I am not saying the government always follow its own laws... but it does it more often and more consistently than other countries. E.g. They are actually going to release convicted terrorists after they have served their prison sentences, whether they have changed their views or not.

The UK values techies like myself, the wages aren't bad for writing software.

Interbank transfers are free.

The taxes are kind of heavy on the income side though ($%#!"&^? 40%!), I agree. It would have been better to have land value tax and less income tax IMO. Those who can afford to own a property are more able to pay than those who have only income. Oh and the 20% VAT should be scraped, so should CGT, calculating CGT gives everyone headache. LVT alone will probably be enough.

It honestly seems like the only option for someone like me to become a millionaire immediately and move out of the country or the more realistic option, stay in the low income 'bracket' on purpose until I can save enough money in Bitcoin to move out and flee like a dissident, this is another reason why I was considering renouncing my citizenship because then the UK government wouldn't be able to attack me for having Bitcoins stored away if they found out.

Yes, I realise that's a pretty paranoid scenario, but I honestly believe with the way they've been acting that's what they'll get up to soon enough.

Oh and saying the UK isn't as bad as other nations is a bit like saying drinking piss isn't as bad as eating shit, It's really sad when I see UK people get defensive about their nation but I guess everybody tends to do that wherever you go :P.

Its crap yes (tax is) but its reasonably "fair"

UK income tax is banded. So whether you earn 200k or 800k you still pay the same on the lower bands, you just pay more on the difference in the upper band. e.g.

Gross Income 200k
Personal Allowance is nil because you are well over the income limit (100k)
20% on first 31,865 = 6373
40% on next 118,134 (eg "£31,866 - £150,000" band) = 47253.60
45% on remaining 50,000 (e.g. "over £150,000" band) = 22500
Total = £76126.6 (effective rate 38%)

Gross Income 800k
Personal Allowance is nil because you are well over the income limit (100k)
20% on first 31,865 = 6373
40% on next 118,134 (eg "£31,866 - £150,000" band) = 47253.60
45% on remaining 650,000 (e.g. "over £150,000" band) = 292500
Total = £346126.6 (effective rate 43%)

The more you earn the more you pay. At least, that's the way the tax code is written.

The *most* realistic option (imho - at least for me so far), is not to realise significant profits whilst you are a UK taxpayer. Keep it under the capital gains allowance of £10,900 for the year (2013-14) and you can take profits tax free. Anything above that and you start paying tax. Offset costs/losses. Most important get an accountant to make sure you are doing it right ;)

Be thankful the early rumours about BTC being VATable did not come to fruition. Silver is a right mess because of VAT.

Not to mention the weather!

Compared to vast swathes of the present world and at any other time and place in human history the UK is a glittering paradise.

Sure, tax is a huge drain and it's squandered constantly. I'd rather be paying my protection money to The Man than be hiding in a bush in the Congo hoping my limbs aren't going to be hacked off.

It's perfectly understandable to moan about it. But you're moaning whilst well fed with some kind of roof over your head, using your education, (hopefully) decent health, pretty darned safe surroundings and handy infrastructure all provided in part by that pesky tax.

Any tax payments via Bitcoin gains have been long written off in my mind. I'm not going to throw away my life, culture, family and friends for the sake of only 28% of it.

And I like the weather here. There, I said it.

I <3 rain! My miner loves the cold.

I like the weather here as well and honestly, I couldn't give a fuck about conditions of a country really these days, it's all about the people, I'd be perfectly happy living on my own in a semi-detached house or flat for years as long as I have my own privacy but even that's going to get taken away eventually, I'm not just one of those anti-tax people I truly hate everything about western governments and I don't have much love for those in the East either but at least they aren't hypocrites and are openly tyrannical.

I'll find a way around this, I found Bitcoin despite it being hidden away in the deep web so it must be possible :P.

Oh yeah and the weather is fantastic for miners, I was getting worried that the U.K was going to become another horrid heater always turned up at maximum type country but nope always manages to keep raining and get cold :D

If you don't want to pay the taxes, at least be man enough to say you feel the problem is that the people are greedy twats who vote for stupid policies which require taxation.

If you like the people and the people vote for the policies that require taxes, then pay the taxes. 

Simples :D

The problem with that logic is Hawker, most people here aren't that bad, it's the voting block that causes all the problems and they don't even make up more than 50% of the country, the situation isn't as simple as people like you like to make out, voting turnout is ridiculously low in this country and in the U.S. so I'd argue that legally these governments aren't representing these countries at all.

The Brits like the NHS, the roads, the Queen, the Armed forces and so on.  They will always vote for them and thus for taxes to support them.    If you add together the Tories, Labour and LibDems, you have well over 90% of the population and all of them have the same tax policies. 

LOL - http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-referendums/Complete-set-of-provisional-turn-out-figures-for-referendum-now-published

The figures are always a bit sketchy but I remember a BBC article practically complaining that about 42% or so? Were the only ones to show up, it was even worse in some of the local elections, dramatically worse.

True but there is a sweet spot in the UK around 40%.  Go above or below that and tax receipts start to fall.  The introduction of the 50% rate reduced the tax take from the rich - its risen now that the tax is 45% and it might rise again when it goes back to 40%.

Have you read the headline?  It was for the AV referendum.  Take a moment to read up what was at stake - a policy that would not change election results much.  People don't vote for things they don't care about.  

You will also see low turnout for EU elections and for local elections in the safe boroughs.  

Take a look at turnout for important elections: http://www.ukpolitical.info/Turnout45.htm  Its over 60% and that's despite all 3 main parties being committed to roughly the same policies. They are all for NHS, Police, Armed Forces and the Welfare State. 

I can only assume the reason you are on about turnout is that you argue that the policies which UK governments follow are broadly supported.  Unless you can find some party that offers different policies winning votes, that's a hard argument to make.

ROFLMAO. You get persecuted for having screwdriver in your pocket while criminals use pistols. There is higher rate of some criminal offenses in London than in Cape Town. And yet they keep robbing you saying how much they take care of you and how they are ensuring your safety. Sure, not bad  ::)

Roll on independence in Scotland.. Fed up of Westminster taxing us.. Bedroom tax is the latest one!!

Saw Cameron on TV with his serious face on the other day urging Scots to vote no on it for the 'sake of Great Britain'. I'm sure they're just going to miss your taxes and don't really care otherwise.

Are you guys kidding?  The SNP is dedicated to higher taxes and they are the Scottish government.  

I've forgotten the name of the Anarchist but I was told about this guy who had been accused by police of having a brick in his pocket at a protest and throwing at them and the only way he could prove his innocence was getting his coat forensically examined to prove that there wasn't even a trace of brick in the pockets. The only difference between the countries people like to attack so much is honesty, western countries generally tend to be much better at hiding and lying about their corruption whereas the eastern countries just can't be bothered with any of that.

Oh and Hawker I guess I have to agree with you on the voter thing if those turnout numbers are right, but the interesting thing is that my family is pretty pro-labour but they're getting tired of all the bullshit as well which is interesting, I think that the main reason people in the UK vote now is to make sure that the 'other guy' doesn't get in. As demonstrated by labour in the last election when they tried using that tactic against the neo-conservative party.

I think we'll see more George Galloway type manoeuvres by the voters just to make sure none of the main parties win, or at least I hope to see some of it :D lol the look on the Labour parties' faces was fantastic when it happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crvy6twP_3s

It depends on how It's done, there was talk about Scotland keeping the pound even if there was a yes vote on independence in Scotland so in the end it wouldn't mean much, I don't think the SNP know very much about keeping a country independent for all I've heard about them.

That said, the idea of a yes vote for it alone scares the crap out of the main party politicians, much like with the AV Referendum lol :P

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about, I also think that's probably what the Bank of England will be betting on, the politicians are just worried about saving face, they hate letting people decide for themselves on an issue.

Scottish independence will start off with a burst of high taxes to make up for the loss of the subsidy from the English.  Once that pain has been dealt with, the Scots are well educated people with a world class infrastructure of roads, education, health and the like.  An independent Scotland should do just fine.

I hope so, I wouldn't mind seeing an independent Wales as well.

I think the whole of Britain should vote on whether Scotland should remain as part of the United Kingdom, not just the scots..  ::)

Yeah, paid for from that aforementioned subsidy.  To be fair they've got a "get on with it" attitude so have new stuff built which has improved their infrastructure (while in the wealth generating south east, every single development is bludgeoned to death by nimbism), but that wont last long once they are out of the union with less money.  They wont have the EU handouts either as they wont be able to join (Spain has already said they wont support Scotland joining, to send a signal to Catalonia and Basque), will find it very difficult to raise bonds when they have no national bank (BoE signalled will not support them), and the oil revenue is dwindling.  Noone other than the SNP thinks it will work economically, its a complete no starter.

People in the UK are definitely getting screwed, thank the PAYE system for that. With the introduction of PAYE your tax is taken from your pay cheque before you even see the money.

Of course, once you get out of the PAYE system you will find that you can get away with paying much less tax. This is how the majority of the rich operate. They run business and they take dividends and receive 'loans' from off-shore unaccountable companies. It's not even difficult nor illegal. It's just not accessible by your average employee.

Yes the majority of contractors here in the UK use LTD company vehicles to be tax efficient. But for the employed this is not an option. Most people like the comfort of holiday, sick and crappy pension at the end, if the company has not plundered it.

Yes, but then the taxes go to the Scottish people, not Cameron and his Corporate buddies.

That's a nice thought but in reality, the Scots enjoy a generous subsidy as well as disproportionate political representation.  If the Scots leave, England will be financially far better off.

Are you sure? Why are they so bothered about you leaving then? It will effect their interests negatively in some other capacity.

National pride is more important than money.  Ireland got indepedence in 1921 and it was a financial disaster.  There was never a point where anyoen said "Lets go back to being British."  Same with most ex-colonies.

Money is not a big deal if you don't feel free.  As it happens, the Scots seem set to reject independence as they are big fans of the Queen and all that guff.  Sad for me as I live in England and our taxes would fall if Scotland left.  There can never be a Labour government in England again without Scottish votes.

Right, I guess I can find the same job in Cape Town and get paid the same NET amount right?
So easy to throw shit and use stupid cases to justify your opinion.

As a USA resident, its not the amount of taxes which is so appalling (and it is) as how it is spent. Mostly on the military, where it is squandered through inefficiency (see Iraq/Afganistan) and corruption which reaches all the way up to congress (a part of the B2 stealth bomber is made in all 50 states in the USA).

The amount is rapidly 1 trillion USD per year. If Congress took half of this, and spent it instead on improving infrastructure, education, transportation, networks, robotics, nanotechnology, green energy, medical research, and other 21st century technologies, our country would look radically different a be in a much better place in 50 years. We might even be able to dig ourselves out of the financial hole we are in and bring the entire world economy with us (with Bitcoin leading the way - of course). As it stands currently, Im frightened how our country will look in 25 years, let alone 50-100.

I wish we'd just abolish the monarchy and 'all that guff'. It's pathetic. Why can't we sell off/privatise the Royal Family and let somebody else pay for them instead of all our other nationally owned assets?

Very true.

Queenie poo should turn Buckingham palace into a massive B&B she would make a mint with all the Americans flocking to stay there and she would not need handouts from the British public. LOL

If you are of some use, I guess yes.

Its not so simple.  The Queen and her relatives are legal owners of huge tracts of UK land.  If the Royals were cut loose and allowed to charge rent, it would be very expensive.  For example, all seashores are owned by the Crown.