Bitcoin Forum

Recently I tried leveraged trading for the first time at Bitmex, and ended up in a loss. It seemed similar to a gamble, where you deposit, place a bet and either win (and double) or lose everything. In leveraged trading, if you deposit & place an order and it reaches your liquidation level, you lose everything.

Gambling can't be compared to regular trading, as in regular trading, you don't win much and don't lose much either. However, if you're trading with leverage, then that trading can be considered something similar to a gamble.

I only gamble I do not trust the whole leverage trading, If I am going to gamble ill do it right and play cards or poker, Something that I actually have a chance at I have asked several people the same question, and none have ever made really much off of leverage trading..

once I was trying to use leveraged trading in bitmex and I can make a good profit. I think it's not the same as a gamble because if we can buy at the low price and the price is increased, you don't have to close that leveraged trading but you can just let it make the profit for you. and I don't think that if we trade using the leverage it is considered as a gamble too. it depends on what price you buy the coins.

I remember that I can buy bitcoin at the lower price at $3xxx and it's still run until now. and makes a profit for me. although the price is up and down, I still make a profit and I don't want to close it right now.

This is an another case which you do able to purchase bitcoin on 3k range which no matter which angle you would really able to have profits considering on the price we are into now.I cant blame OP do see Leveraged trading is comparable to gambling. Even myself do have that kind of perception or view too towards it. Gamble if you dont know on what you are doing but if its always based up with some analysis then it cant be considered as one.

How can take the leverage trading and gambling in the comparison bro. Then you do not need to check the price changes and marketplace value in the profit consideration too bro. Gambling is personal convenience to play the betting, slot roll and etc to win and loose the profit bro.

I think op take this discussion to wrong section. if you are creating the thread with the news with the gambling dude.

everyone has a different view on this. and maybe you just see from the point of pleasure. gambling is more fun than leveraged trading. because the risks we get from both are pretty much the same

Leveraged trading is essentially borrowing money from the broker and play the bet. It will offer you a certain level of liquidity and once the liquidity is exhausted, your trades get squared off. This is also known as "margin trading" in real world stock market and a very risky proposition.

Even though these are structurally different than conventional gambling, but the end results are very similar to gambling, the game of luck! But leveraged trading comes with a very high risk exposure as compared to conventional gambling.

I would not consider it the same, gambling is easy you either play dice or select on a outcome that's going to happen but leverage trading is not that simple, many people won't even have any idea what's it about and they may just get in and burn their hands so I would prefer gambling that is easy to understand it's better to face a known adversary than a unknown adversary.

Well i think that even leverage trading can't be compared to gambling as well, because no matter what trading is always going to depend somewhat on knowing the markets and what you are trying to trade, where is gambling it all depends on your luck even if you try to convince yourself otherwise, trading with leverage and putting a price that the coin is not going to fall down to is not something that you just guess it is something that you need to really look in too and decide where in gambling its all based on preeducated guess.

Did you not know what you were getting yourself into by margin trading?  That's one of the problems with it.  As opposed to just using a cash account, you can easily lose everything if you run into a margin call.  Sure, the gains can be so much greater but the chance of getting wiped out is also greater.

The United States got into serious trouble with leverage, if you recall the banking crisis of 2008 and 10 years before that, Long Term Capital Management.  Too much leverage is a killer.  Give it a shot if you've got some spare money to lose but be aware that you could end up with the same result as you just got.

This thread motivated me to open an account @ bitmex to try crypto trading on leverage. Unfortunately, the USA is a "restricted" region? (It might be a state based restriction, rather than nation based)

http://i67.tinypic.com/214d006.jpg

What's a good exchange for leveraged trading, where I might have access?

The last time I tried trading with leverage on the stock market, I think the minimum account balance to do so was $2,000. One neglected advantage of crypto trading could be leverage with balances less than $2k. Generally higher potential profits are correlated with greater risk. Many financial and economic instabilities and recessions can be traced back to large investors gambling with toxic assets when financial bubbles pop.

"Regulation" prohibits people like me from having financial opportunities with leveraged crypto trading on bitmex. I know that people circumvent regulation via VPN/proxy/etc. But shouldn't these platforms operate on an equal opportunity basis?

whenever you are talking about trading whether it is normal way of buy low sell high or leverage trading, at the end of the day the results of it will be determined based on how good you can speculate the market. if you make mistakes you will lose money and if you don't and speculate it accurately then you make a profit. so if you lost money in leverage trading that means your speculation was off the market. try working on that and you will be more successful and eventually realize that the unpredictability of the market is nothing like the unpredictability of gambling. the first one is not 100%, you can still predict the market to some extent but you can never predict the outcome of a bet.

Both trading and leverage trading can be compared to gambling. The less you know what you are doing and the more you are relying on luck on how you feel the market will go, the more of a gambler you are. The difference is, leverage trading is similar to gambling when you borrow money, so you can bet higher amounts. You can win more but you can lose faster as well.

How the market is going to be is also based on our luck but we can't say this is purely based on our luck like in gambling.But I really don't know clearly that what is an leveraged trading can someone explain that term in easy form. :D

Precisely, leverage trading compared to gambling all I can say is worst in gambling. There's no assurance in gambling but in trading maybe you have a chance. If I rate them in my own the lowered one is gambling, pure luck base on gambling but in trading, you have a chance by searching and make a study of what coin you trade for.
For me, these two things are very risky, so I will not engage of these of strategy in earning money.

In trading there's a guaranteed return especially when you know what you are doing. Regular trading is cannot be consider as gambling because you have the strategies every time you trade, and you study for it however people consider trading as gambling because many greedy people are still trading even they know nothing. Leveraged trading is quiet more risky and it can be consider as gambling because you are borrowing money just to have more profit which I think more greedy compare to the ordinary trading.

What separates gambling from trading is simply the duration of winning and losing as both is about winning and losing just like every options in life that is about winning and losing. Focusing on gambling and trading, while in regular trading, you can quickly cut your losses when you see things not going according to the way you plan it, unlike gambling that the when an event happen, your status is already determined. In leverage trading that you have experience its just so close to gambling but not the same thing what makes it looks like gambling is because you are not allowed to alter your position after you have locked it in.

Once you put in your money into something and you will earn in return from it. I think it slready called gambling since you do not have the assurance the return of youre money plus the profit unless you are too lucky but most of the time youll ended busted. In my opinion both can be considered as gambling.

Trading/leverage trading can be compared to gambling but depends on how you are doing your trading. If you start placing your trade without studying the market and not analyzing anything, but with a hope of "gaining" something then you are actually gambling cause you are hoping to make profit but you are totally uncertain about what is going to happen. But if you do your analysis properly chances are high that you have predicted the outcome thus this time you aren't gambling.

I don’t know how can you compare gambling with trading and leveraged trading? Trading is far better than gambling because it is business and the source of making more and more money while gambling is the way of losing your earned money. It will take to into debts and you will never be able to pay those debts till the end of your life and finally you will suicide.

Trading is the most profitable source of income and many people are making more and more money from crypto trading. Gamblers are losing their money online and offline. They have no respect in society, besides trader has lot of respect in his community because of having money. By trading you can become the richest person of your community.

I don't think that leverage trading is the same as gambling. because we still need to analyze where is the trend wants to go and how good the market if we buy the coin. but in leverage trading, we can add power because we can get leverage to make money but we could also get lost if our buy does not match with the trends. so it is important for us to know where the price wants to go so we can make a profit in leverage trading.

It's not exactly like gambling, leverage trading is mostly for those people who know the market very well, i don't know if you remember but there was a trader once who had few bitcoins and started leverage trading in December. He converted those few bitcoin to some 80 bitcoins and he thought he knew everything about the market but in jan as price started falling he got frustrated and start leveraging more and finally in feb lost everything when the market crashed

That's a very typical mentality you have portrayed. Just like how a common man with zero knowledge about gambling would think. I won't blame you because this is how a major portion of the society thinks about gambling and you are not someone with exceptional mental capability. So no wonder you would do that.

By characteristic, trading is also gambling. In gambling you bet on your luck and in trading you bet on your speculation and obviously luck. It's because of some people with typical mindset portrays gambling as negative in the society. A change in outlook towards gambling is obviously needed and I strongly condemn your views on gambling.   

From their terms of service:


At Bitmex, there's no minimum account balance required for leveraged trading. You're good to go even with a few satoshis. However, I must say that you're lucky for being in a restricted region. It ruined my savings of whole year in a blink of an eye. ::)

I'm never going to open that website again.

in my opinion, gambling is playing off-chance. Trading on the other hand is all insightful knowledge and confidence, therefore I'd go leveraged trading where at least you still have some limited control over your money

Additionally, there are tools you can use in trading to help you predict future pricing and patterns in the market (technical analysis), but in the end it is extremely debatable whether or not these tools help or work much, and trading is still luck-based, much like gambling. You can reduce risk in trading to minimize losses by reducing trade sizes, etc, and trading isn't exactly rigged against you the way regular gambling is with house edges, but trading and gambling are clearly related in some ways.

If we start talking about leveraged trading, though, we start to stray closer to true gambling. Leveraged trading is extremely risky and there's a reason why most people choose not to do it- though your gains are greater as a result of leverage, so do your losses, and then margin calls also come into play. In the past when I've tried trading, I never even looked to it or thought of it for these very reasons.

Thx for the info. That clarifies things. I'll try to find another exchange which accepts US residents. If I trade I'll probably use a balance of $20 or less and focus on percentage gained/lost rather than overall bankroll. To get an idea of how profitable/unprofitable it is over the long term. Around 5 years ago, I tried trading on an exchange and only managed to profit around $12 per day. It wasn't much more profitable than HODL so I gave it up. Maybe things are different now.

If trading crypto with leverage was more widely available 5 years ago, I might've been able to turn my $12 per day gains into a decent sum. Sorry to hear about your losses. I lost around 8 bitcoins gambling when 1 btc was worth around $12 around 2011-2012. I know that feeling.

This topic has been discussed pretty much for the last 20-30 years by people going and buying stocks or futures.

The answer is always the same. Its called gambling if you don't know what you are doing and just trading on greed and emotion.

I use Bitmex alot and I see day in and day out more or less the same situation. People deposit like $100 and get greedy and go 100x so they end up being whipped out usually within the hour and their account is cleared.

Even if the trade does work out they usually take profits way too early and their stop loss is pretty much being margin called.

At least when leveraged trading, you have a basis of why you bought at that level and sell at that level even though there is still a risk that you will be margin called when price doesn't go where it is suppose to go. In gambling, more often than not you will depend on a chance that you will get lucky that what you bet on can win and it is a one time big time win and one time loss too but when you are trading, you still have a chance to hedge your position so that your losses will not be that big or may at least be break-even or have some profit.

Some people would choose gambling over leveraged trading though because some games in gambling are no-brainer while in trading, you need to do analysis that may be stressful for some people.

Yes, even outside margin trading, anyone who is doing anything without knowledge is actually gambling because there is no way such a person will be able to do it better than someone with knowledge. However, in the real gambling, there is nothing like knowledge which is what totally makes trading a whole lot different from gambling.

In a way, we can call trading an educated gambling in which you have a chance of doing far better if you are well learned and have a good strategy, and that is one thing you can never get from real life gambling in the casinos.

Well, that depends on how high the leverage you are placing is and how knowledgeable you are when it comes to trading. I have never liked leverage trading anyway because in the real sense, you are actually gambling and in this case it is even more of an educated gambling for those with knowledge than the real style of trading. In this case, you are either losing or you are winning and nothing like patience to hold as in the case of trading normally but in a way, with great knowledge, it is still better than normal gambling in a way.

These two are different things. Gambling is a source of losing money and trading is a source of making money. Earn money from trading and lose them in gambling are the formula of addicted and regular gamblers and traders of cryptocurrency. If you have any care of your family you will never gamble and will only trade affectively to make more money.

I believe they both can be very dangerous in their own way because they are both risky for one to borrow to trade is a funny stupid act that is unbearable when thought of because no trader should borrow to tades because of the instability. Gambling on it own can be a good act if only one know how to be a master in his or her game, thos is another way it will be better.  

The good thing about trading is that you have all it takes to be a winner most of the time and even if you are losing, you are just losing small.

I understand a lot of people consider margin trading with gambling, but that depends on each individual and how they are going about it which indeed some people are actually gambling than trading anyway since they simply have no strategy and all they do is guess work, and that is not different but in the case where they are doing it professionally with great knowledge it is a lot more than just gambling.

It depends. If you think that technical analysis and fundamental analysis are skills in which you can improve upon and therefore increase your percentage of accurate predictions, that would mean that you don't consider that gambling, but a job, so this wouldn't be the same as going into a casino and spinning a roulette. The fact that you are using leverage or not in your trading doesn't change that, you either consider TA and FA as skills or you just think trading is 100% luck.

Personally I think it's actually safer to use leverage in trading than most casino activities. Maybe, you can consider poker a proper skill, and also sports betting in which you can study the statistic and teams involved, other than that it's mostly luck out there.

I don't think you can compare them either. If I were to gamble I would stick to standard gambling, and I were to trade I would stick to standard trading. To be honest, leverage trading seems too complicated, and at least with gambling there is some fun / entertainment involved (at least for me).

Yes, comparing is kind of illogical, yaa both requires skills, like in Poker I believe skill set is highly required and in trading obviously without some skill you will kill yourself financially within few moments. But both are different personally for me, like I trade to earn and I gamble to have fun and enjoy the earning as well only if I have luck.

I think for a good future crypto trading and for a worst future crypto gambling. Now you can understand these phenomena and can decide which one is better for a better life. But the problem is this that regular gamblers cannot quit gambling although they know the worst verdict of gambling but still they gamble and don’t think about their future.

Well if you think about it, the principles and the skill for normal trading or leverage trading are probably the same. The strategy used, or the risk/award ratio is what puts them apart in my opinion. On normal trading you can just buy or sell, and even if the market goes against you, you can choose to keep it open i you really think things are going to change, and you will have the comfort in knowing that you wont lose more that you have already invested.

On leverage trading, not only the losses can happen much faster, you can't really leave a trade open, because you could end up losing even more than what you invested on that trade. The potential returns are of course much higher, but so is the risk. I don't think one is mo close to gambling than the other though. You just need different bankroll management rules in my opinion.

In gambling there are only two faces to choose its either win or loose but in leverage or marginal trading aside from when or loose there is another thing called control and this is the strategies for trading applied in gambling you put your money on which side you are betting and you can't take control of that when the betting was placed unlike leverage trading you can take control of your money and when to decide for the right time to trade.

Don’t waste your powers here. Rather if you want to make good strategies and you want it to get fruits for you, best option is trading or investing.

But not gambling, not in any case. The reason behind this statement is, gambling is harmful and you can lose all what you have got right now. This is natural that human is greed to money so this greediness get over heated when you are in gambling.

Gambling is basically either you will win or lose. In trading there is winning a bit, there is winning a lot,
there is losing a bit, there is losing a lot. I mean the chances are if you know how to trade than you will make good returns depending on your knowledge of the market. I feel like they are not even comparable. One is a job, the other is gambling. Trading is income of many people in our world (the crypto world) and they make a living of it, sometimes they win and sometimes they lose but if you are a good enough trader you end up on profit. Gambling is not a way to make a living.

Base on what others said and others are saying, leveraged trading on bitmex are very very risky but can give you very high profit if you are a professional leveraged trader. I can say that leveraged trading is somewhat like gambling because if you don't know where will it move, you will lose all your money. I think before we do leverage trading in bitmex, we must try to do testing first. There is a website for that thou I don't know what it is.

From that point of view the advantage is you can have some basis if you do know how to assess and read some graphs there's some trace that will guide you to assess well before placing your investment, speculations and historical patterned can give good opinions unlike gambling where its base more on luck.

Yeah win or lose is the main character of gambling specially for the people who need quick lucky profits. But if you're going to differentiate it with trading activities, which seemingly having comparisons with gambling due to risk involved. However you may lose all your bets in gambling, unlike with trading coins with lower value. You might be losing it but not totally wasting it, because minimal percentage will be loss if a coin will be sold earlier.

It's better to gamble than leverage trading, the market might just shift any moment the chance of going up and down isn't close to 50% also. People have lost many funds in leverage trading, it's always better to practice first so you know what you are doing

There is no comparison between trading and gambling. Trading is a well reputed and profitable business while gambling is the way of losing money and respect as well. How can you compare gambling loss and trading loss? A gambler loses almost everything if he continues gambling but in trading a trader may earn a lot of money when he gets a chance.

I don't they are any different... They are both gambling in someway, even though professionals use indicators and analysis, most of them are just gambling away their money, the thrill of seeing your money go exponentially up is very exhilarating, I think it is why most of them lose so much, since they engage in trading without discipline or proper training. 

Every gambling activity have their own risk so you need to be wise to choose that fit based on your need.
Personally, I'm never do any leveraged trading because for me , it's quite risky


Especially gambling on crypto make far more risky !

When you are before many options and you have to make choice that what to do with all of this, then best is to opt for that choice that have least risk factor. There is always risk factor and loss so you can’t just get escape from it. Don’t try to be fool and don’t fool others as well. You can never make anything better in this gambling. No one ever have made so how can you come to this.

Well although leveraging wouldn’t be a profitable scenario but still it is much better than this gambling. There is basic difference between trading and gambling and that is luck. You are totally dependent on your luck in gambling but you can utilize your skills that can make your results good. Don’t worry about trading, it definitely would be helping you in a better way.

Well, you can actually win a lot on usual cryptocurrency trading if you have big funds of your own. If you borrow money to invest it into something - it is very risky, because you can end up not only losing everything, but owing in addition to that. I wouldn't suggest to do that no matter what happens, just like gambling should be done with funds one is okay with losing.
How did you manage to lose everything, though, if cryptos never go 'busted' like during stock market simulation games. If you lost a big amount, but the coin is actually good, then you should keep holding it anyway. This is a major difference from gambling by the way, because if you bought a coin and the price dropped, at least you still have this coin and hope that it may rise again.

i have to disagree with you and apparently alot of users who also believe that gambling and margin trading are the same ! in gambling you most of the time have a 50% chance to win.However,in trading you can cut your losses and increase your chances as much as you can . don't enter a trade which you didn't analyze well with 100x leverage , try to be very picky when it comes to enter a trade with leverage and don't put ridiculous leverage stay with 10x and you will be fine.

Well... There are differences and similarities but at the end of the day it wouldn't be logical to consider them same.

-Leveraged (specially heavily leveraged) trading leads to either a big profit or a big loss.
-Betting leads to either a big profit or a big loss.

How can you say that gambling has never made anybody a big profit?

Your point is very valid here. Gambling in any sense can cost you a lot of money or it can also give you huge profit. It can go either ways. The main word that should be noted here is if it will be consistent or not. And we must admit that making consistent profit from gambling is very hard. It is very hard but it can be achieved by those who are responsible enough to limit themselves to bet on games that have more chances of winning.

my gambling is ended with losing my money but my leveraged trading in bitmex still continue and I don't have to close the trade because of I still in the profit mode. and from this, I think it is a different thing if we compare between gambling and leveraged trading because in gambling, we have a big chance to lose all money and in leveraged trading, we can recover our loss if we can make a good analyze. and so far, my leveraged trading still up and down and it's followed with bitcoin price ;D

This looks similar to the "binary optinos" sites where you should bet on the Euro, Gold etc should go up or down...i wouldn't try it.

Yes I also agree with you that there is a big difference between gambling and trading, we cannot compare leverage trading with gambling. In trading we can minimize our lost by wait for some time, even we cannot cut all our lost by invest more in a low price.

I agree that leveraged trading is almost as risky as gambling, it's just the possible profit that attracts people, but even a professional trader, as for me, can't make a 100% prediction. Sometimes one can say with a 70-80% probability that a certain cryptocurrency will increase, or decrease and whether it is better to sell now, or to buy. But guessing the exact price in a certain period of time - that's too risky and only the one who personally manipulates the price can know what will happen. I think leveraged trading should be done only with small amounts of money, due to the likely possibility of losing it all, unlike in a regular trading, where there are chances to recover your losses someday.

They really look same to me since losses are 100 percent when you miss on your 'bet', and the upside it that you get rewarded far beyond the normal trade. imagine a 100x leverage position

When many people here are comparing trading with gambling, the margin trading must be a pure trading version of gambling. You cannot hold your positions if you have opted for higher leverages. You will get greedy when you will be set with more capital to trade compared to what you actually have.

I guess we had big topic here about gambling with borrowed money. I guess that has no big differences from leveraged trading.

Well, that is one way to put it but in another way, you really cannot compare gambling fully with trading but you can compare yourself trading to you gambling based on how you actually perceive trading. If you are trading with no strategy and all you do is gamble the possibility of where the position may fall to, then you are actually gambling, and in most cases some people with no knowledge even end up using a high leverage. Trading can be done with knowledge and that is what makes it entirely different from gambling.

Thank you for reminding us. The common thing among trader and gambler is, they always prefer to learn their lessons only from their own experience. Sadly, no discussion here may not helpful to both of them, :(.

I've never participated in leveraged trading. The end result is the same but it's not gambling in the same way that correlation does not equal causation.


In truth, if you're on some hot news that will shake up the price and you have a good understanding of the market, you could have the odds in your favor. For example, if you kept going long, you could have made a lot of money over time.


With gambling you'd just continually lose money day after day.

You're mixing market manipulation (insider trading) with normal trading. If you are onto some rare news that only a few people know about you are an insider. Just like you would be if someone from the SEC were to tell you that they are planning to allow CBOE ETF next month and you went on and invested everything. It's against the law.
If you trade like a normal person you can never know what's going to happen. For instance when Winklevoss ETF got rejected the price went down, but today a number of ETFs met the same fate and the price didn't budge. Trading is just a more fancy type of gambling.

First You need to know what your dealing with, isn't just a gamble. But a market trading economy that can shift up and down randomly.
Consider you have the knowledge about some crypto and that has a high 24h volume on exchanges.
Also if it has alot of activities (tradings). Else its a dead coin.
There are some guides from Doug Polk, you should check them out.

It has similarities as you don't have full control over leveraged trading either. But leveraged trading is not based on pure luck like most of the gambling games. I don't think it could be considered as gambling.

leveraged trading using analysis to determine the trends and we need to know where the price wants to go in the next hours or tomorrow. and in leveraged trading, we can have a chance to get profit and even for big profit especially, if we can make a good analysis. but in gambling, our chance is not too big and we still depend on the luck factor and we have a chance to lose the money.

So when do you start calling something gambling? When you have 10% control? 5%? 1%? If you analysed gambling you'd know that some games are 100% luck but some are only 50% or even less. Are some of them gambling while others are not?
In my opinion if there is some amount of luck involved it's gambling.

In my eyes, gambling stands as a much harsher way to lose money because the risk is much bigger whilst at least in 'leveraged' trading one can rely on many indicators such as news and technical trend analysis.

Both things are more than different and you can not be comparing them, trading is good, and you can make profit if you study it.

Gambling is more than different, you can not make profit if you just study it, because it works because of an algorithm, that is based on the platform.

Approach margin trading like you are gambling, and you will realize they are not so different. Margin or trading the leverage way is a type of trading where if you do not have a strategy, and a good trading knowledge, you can get liquidated completely, and that is one thing you really do not want to see happen right? But you will see it happen just in the same way as gambling will get you screwed when you see trading as just a game of luck. A lot of people today that approached margin trading with the mindset of gambling, will sure have that story to tell you

They actually do have a lot in common depending on how you approach trading and most especially leverage trading.
First and foremost, margin trading is something you can lose everything by getting liquidated, which is the same thing that can happen with gambling.

The only difference here is that when you are trading with knowledge and a good strategy, you sure will have a good chance doing well at it than gambling of course, but the mistake you ever want to make is to approach margin trading like gambling, you would be surprised at the level at which you will get burned the same way gambling originally does.

Still, when buying something in trading without proper analysis then it will lead to disasters whereas in gambling people do start gambling with lots of hours spent on deriving their own strategies still same disasters may happen in a blink of eye. Not just with gambling and trading, in our routine life, if we go in perspective analysis we may find lots of similarities in many conceptually different domains. Hence, no wonder in comparing/differentiating gambling and trading.

That is not correct, I do not believe that we cannot make money in gambling, it's possible to win but the chance to win is very small compared to trading or course. You spend time to study a certain type of gambling as long as it's based on skills, I am sure you will win in the long run.

Even if they seem similar there is a difference, you can choose whether or not you leverage your trades, that small difference is enough to tell you that gambling and leverage trading are not the same, however once you use leverage trading I will admit that both activities become very similar, this is why it is recommended that only those that are expert traders use leverage at all but like always people do not listen because they only see the potential profits they can get.

I don’t think that “leveraged trading” is similar to gambling. No matter what type of trading it is, your decisions should always depend upon the knowledge about the market, implying that you need to understand and research the market carefully. Even for deciding the price of the coin in leveraged trading, you should really have some market knowledge but in gambling it entirely based on random guess and the result is based on your luck.

Sure it is, especially in a volatile market like Bitcoin. While with normal trading you can as they say hold a bag for a while, it's impossible with leveraged trading.

To make it simple, normal trading involves technicals and fundamentals. If you buy in and the technicals fail you, you are still left with the fundamentals. That gives you the ability to freeze funds for a while, while being 5 or 10% at a loss, and wait for a bounce. This isn't possible in leveraged trading as you have to pay to hold your position and can eventually run out of money or come to the point when your eventual gains would barely cover the exchange fees. That's why it's a quick way to a large profit... or ruin.

Yes, you are right. In leveraged trading, we should know how much profit we should take and don't greedy because this will makes you become a loss. I prefer with leveraged trading too although we don't have much knowledge about the coins as long as we can see the green colour in the status of the trading then it means, we can take the profit. I think it's easy to try in leveraged trading and the profit will be good for us.

In any kind of trading and gambling greediness can be a killer of your stash. Both are risky, both can be tricky as hell, and both can take your money away or earn you a lot of money. I will go with gambling, much easier, much less bothering, leverage trading require special skills, you need to be active a lot, you need to have accounts everywhere, basically you earn of fluctuations in exchange rates between two different countries, now you figure it out how to do it, with gambling you have much more fun and its much easier.

I don't agree with this post.

Yes gambling with dice or blackjack can be more "fun" however its basically "gambling" and there is really no method except luck. With trading if you got a few years experience you can filter out the trades which are most likely to work. And if you got a good risk/reward ratio then you are way ahead rather than just tossing a dice roll.

With dice you can't really do this because each roll is completely independent of the prior. With the markets its different. Especially if you are trading in a strong bear market like we are right now and you are only going short, you got the trend in your favour, with dice you don't have that advantage.

I'm not sure on what basis you are ready to treat these two as the same things. Even gambling and leverages trading are having many similarities, definitely they are two different things and they both need completely different approaches so that we can get what we actually aiming for.

Gambling is known for its easier nature and anyone can start with it when they are having very small to no money to spend with whereas trading requires lots of hard work on strategy making and continuous learning about knowledge and remembering old events (which are not at all required for gambling). You may choose either one based on your preferences but definitely NOT imagining these are alternate to each other.

All the gamblers do not need to be a trader and the vice versa is also true because gambling and trading are completely different fields that is the reason they require completely different set of skills and these are existing for different purposes so choose the right one for your needs and you may go for both at different time but definitely with different mindset and skill set.

Ill go with gambling . why ? simply because i can easily understand its mechanics and i can start as early as possible even if i only have a small capital .  gambling is also more benficial imo because many sites nowadays do offer jackpots and other goodies .

Leverage trading on the side may seem a bit confusing to me but i know that this one can provide more succesive income than in gambling  .

I get your point mate, with gambling you can easily play the game without considering anything, just simply play with your luck and if you win you can enjoy your earnings yet when you lose you will go and move on knowing that you play inside gambling, while in leverage trading where you use your
knowledge and try to sort things out, when you lose you will always think about it and stress yourself as you've done what is needed to assess the next movement.

Gambling is simple, you do not need to study it hard because in the end you'll still rely on your luck.
You win some, you loss some, that's gonna happen, but don't expect you'll have more wins than your losses as gambling is not build that way.
If you win big and you stop, then maybe you can be profitable, but most of us will still continue, we think making money consistently is possible.
So eventually, we will still gonna return our winnings and sad is we will be down again.

This is different from gambling, the only similar is the risk because you need to risk your money to make money.
Its's not easy, but unlike gambling, your chances to be successful here is way higher.

So you need to apply different approach on two, if you want to do both.

No, I won't go with gambling, you will not make money from gambling. I choose for leveraged trading because I can have a chance to make money and I know it will be a big profit in that trade. But yes, I need more knowledge and skill to make money from leveraged trading and I am sure I can learn from many tutorials. And for the account, I think I only register on one exchanges and leveraged trading is different than arbitrage trading.

Knowledge and time are both important, and anyone who are in a mission of making money in trading are willing to spend time and effort to learn.
We should know it's different from gambling, so we know what to focus and what to consider as an entertainment.

There is no much different between gambling and leverage trading as both are too risky to go into.  It is possible that you can loose all your investments in just a single trade as will as loosing your entire investments in a single betting!  However,  you can predict to some extent by using candlesticks formation or news in leverage trading but in gambling you only depend on luck.

Lol both have their advantages and disadvantages and are very risky. Even though you can have more lucks with leverage trading than mere gambling. You can as well lose a lot of money on leverage trading.

I especially believe that leverage trading with altcoin is pure gambling.

Cause on btc you can see the big waves... But on alts? With the BTC price ratio?
Lol you can't see shyit don't kid yourself.

Gambling and leverage trading are almost the same.  But one is lesser in risk than another.  If you are trading you do make some analysis using technical and fundamentals issues but in gambling it is a different think entirely.

I don't see any lesser risk in them both, these two are still risky and could end up in losing too much of your money. But with the help of technical analysis it might have increased your chances but not that high so it is still risky. I suggest if you go leverage trading you should have a better TA and other analysis in the market so you won't end up burning your whole money.

Yes I also don't know much about leverage trading because it will not been used to be much more people but gambling is always been used by a lots of people and increasing every day so I also trust gambling more than this type of trading.

This is also what I had thought when I first tried leveraged trading. It is comparable, like 50/50 if the dump will happen or the pump. It's a matter of great technical analysis on charts, but it still won't be 100% sure because of the uncertainty of the market. There are preparation and strategies for trading and also for gambling, and then if you lose in any of them, you could apply the martingale strategy. I have not yet tried it, but I know someone who uses it in trading.

Because you are a gambler and such sections are filled by most gamblers, but when you are in the trading section then there will be lots of people debating you when you said that. As privously, gambling and trading have advantages and disadvantages and when you equalize the two or choose the one that you think is profitable then you have to know both and at least you have to try how to gambling and how to trading. Many people who said gambling was about luck, you just need to put up and pray to be approached with luck, strategy only gives a little confidence in you. Unless with trading, it can be 99% to get profit you have to use a strategy.

Its more risky in leverage trading if you don't know how to do it well, though gambling of course its given that its risky but in trading you still do your effort here to study the market. Better not to trade and gamble at all if you think the risk is too much for you or it will just put you more in debt. Just have fun in gambling, don't take it seriously or else you will lose more.

With margin trading, you can trade with an extra amount of money borrowed from someone on the basis of the money you already have. You can be able to make a bigger profit because your buying amount will bigger too and when the price can increase, your profit will increase too. I prefer to do leveraged trading than gambling because there is a big chance for me to make a bigger profit than ordinary trading. But still, I like playing gambling too as many other ;D

But gambling is more popular in this situation most of the people don't know about leverage trading because when people are thinking about money making they are going only easier said that's why gambling will more popular and there is no higher guidance will about to trade in the way of leverage trading.

Leverage is the chance to do something you couldnt do otherwise which is sell Bitcoin you dont own or buy when you dont actually have the full amount required.    It requires more accuracy then just a plain hold because its more time dependant, I thought you meant like real market trading for a minute because normal markets have a ton of borrowed money in there.    Bitcoin becomes more volatile with borrowed money, I'm not sure its for the best if it leans on money that will disappear later too much.     

My overall take on Bitcoin price pulling back is that it was necessary to squeeze the rag dry of all the weak money in the price, before we can continue with a more stable price.   Having the exchange with margin in there keeps putting back short term blips in price that may not last if the overall effect is to remove anything less solid.   Anyone doing this should be sure to take profits fast, like a bet not think its going to keep running up.     Price is checking itself alot nowadays not running so much, it might in future but seems every week is quite similar in that way now

Because people only see ordinary trading so far and they don't know much about leverage trading. But for people who are familiar with trading, I think they hear about leverage trading and they want to learn how to make a profit using leverage. But it's too risky to trade with leverage especially if we don't have any knowledge about the trend and we only use the same method with ordinary trading. In leverage trading, as long as the trend still increase, you can make a lot of profit especially if you use huge money to place short or long trading.

Inside crypto, leverage trading is mostly contains of lucks, as analysis and data indicators are not really being used by many traders who
work with this type of tradings, influence by bagholders can simply change the market directions and whatever you do there's no chance of yours
to reverse what they wanted to do and whatever directions they wanted to take.

in terms of popularity both trading and gambling are equal but trading is more preferable option by majority because they believe that it is more profitable and less riskier due to the fact that you have some guides that you can depend on  . unlike to gambling that luck only play a major role .  for people that are less knowledgeable like me , i dont have a choice but go with gambling .

It is really difficult to be in leverage trading now, we can't actually make profit with these. Gambling might have a huge risk also but it somehow more applicable at this time. Prices may affect our trading strategies but for gambling, it is only our luck who could brought us into winning. Leverage trading will only be effective when the market are pumping.

Why wouldn't you be able to make a profit in leverage trading? There are a lot of opportunities as long as you are correct in your predictions/analysis with different indicators or something like that. I do not entirely agree that it's only luck, you could also increase your chances in winning when you input your strategy too. It's better to be prepared.

And I think it's better to have margin trading with leverage so you could profit on an uptrend and downtrend with the right calls.

leveraging now can make less profit and big loss because of too much volatility so gambling can be better in this situation. Its good not to do anything without enough knowledge, it only means you know what to do in the right way. Gambling only needs a small understanding and you can play easily.

Gambling can some how be compared to trading with leaverage because in both you may loose all or double your capital of which you use for the investment. I will advise people to always steak to the one for which you are good at in other for you to continue earning your profit from either gambling or leaverage trading.

You are right.
Trading with leverage is high risk.
Gambling with provably fair is better then using leverage.
I trade without leverage only.

Both things, gambling and trading, has risk and it’s a matter of how well prepared you are with what you are doing. For example, there are a lot of great traders, not the one who claim themselves great, do very well with trading. It’s just a matter of consistency, correct analysis, and the right trend. Leveraging is great when you are trying to have a small amount and still have a great profit but unless you have no knowledge with that, it would be hard. I’m just thankful that my trading bot is now capable of margin trading even if I have less knowledge with it.

Same scenario here. When I thought I have sustained enough knowledge to do swing trade in bitmex, I lose all my funds, too. Nothing left. That is also the time I've come to realized that it is close as gambling. The only difference is that when whales entered the market, even the strongest indicators and TA will become worthless.

Whales are powerful than anything in this industry . thats the bad side of investing and trading in any markets not just on cryptos  . that is also the reason why i only prefer gambling because there is no known whales in the gambling scene . you can win or loose depending on your luck  .


Gambling with provably fair is fair but that doesnt mean that you can now win more often  .  in gambling luck do still matter the most  . though trading with leverage has the same risk as gambling  because both are unpredictable .

Trading is similar to that of gambling, it has got high risk in it. If the predictions about the games result get coincide with the prediction we'll get a good earning. If the same happens in the opposite way loss happens. With trading similar risk is there, but the same on borrowed money makes the trading process more difficult. Because, we're in a forced situation to invest on the right coin. Small mistake will cause a big loss and when it is borrowed on interest it is further loss.. In this regard it is better to go with gambling than leveraged trading.

Gambling is more effective than leveraged trading because the effect of people was or Hyatt to gambling more than trading that's why it will be more popular but in trading you can make the consistent profit but in yamli it will not been happened for anyone this is the main problem when comes to gambling.

It depends on the period. Where there are major bullish run with little spread across the markets, I'd say that is quite safe to have short positions even with leverage. Lot less painful than gambling.

Yeah, gambling with provably fair is fair but in my own experience, it's still not fair that's why I don't like games with a provably fair method. I stick to the games where you can challenge your skills among to the other players and not to some luck based game. This is just my own opinion hope it doesn't bother to you or to anyone. ;)

Well its your preference but actually you are advertising some luck-based game gambling site  ;D well we do have our own preference but still people do likes to engage
into these games yet high probability on gaining big profits on a short or almost instant duration.Going back on topic about leverage trading, they do have similarities
in terms of gamble-like decision but on trading theres a certain analysis you can rely on.

You're wrong about all of it.
Gambling isn't more effective than leveraged trading unless you bet on a game of skill like poker and you're good at it. Trading can be really profitable if you know what you're doing like betting on a coin right before its fork. Bitcoin pumped when it split into BCH, BCH pumped when it split into SV, ETH pumped when they announced the fork.

You aren't making consistent profits from trading. Most people don't, especially in the bear market.

You have a good view about trading and gambling and it is important we all know that both gambling and leverage trading cannot be predicted accurately but for to some extent one can easily predict leverage trading than gambling.

I can even add another point that proofs that they might be similar...
In gambling, you have house edge that determines that casino always wins.
In trading, you have transaction fees that determines that exchange always wins.

But here similarities ends. Because if trading you can increase probability of winning by various methods and experience. In gambling each system (other than putting all on red) decreases your probability of double.
Yea ... Martingale too - Does Martingale Work? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5112216.msg49832531#msg49832531)

Well, you can say that casinos and leveraged trading  are co aidered gambling. It's just that we have a basis for leverage trading entries like technical analysis. In gambling, we only rely on luck and some martingale strategies which I do not often use.
I bet, you were so hasty to enter leveraged trading and did not used deeper analysis that is why you loss. You can not take lightly that kind of trading unlike gambling.

Indeed, I always thought trading and gambling in literal sense same. Although there is no pattern whatsoever in gambling since every roll (considering dice game) is unique, while in trading you can use TA or such.

Exactly, leverage trading is same like gambling, even most of the threads are here they said that trading is same like gambling, So it is but not whole trading is same like gambling, Leverage Trading is similar with gambling and Regular Trading is another thing, here our money not on the top of risk still we can earn profit.

When a gambler has skills in one game and he is a specialist in that game, I am sure that he will choose to gamble than trading. But for ordinary people who don't gamble for a long time and he doesn't trade for a long time, I think he will choose to trade than gambling because trading will have a chance to make money than gambling. Besides that, he cannot win in gambling in every day, but he has a chance to make a profit in trading everyday.

True but Leverage trading is a little better though.
 Things are a bit predictable with leverage trading. It is high risk high reward thing while  gambling are mostly risky.
 Normal trading is better than both for earning consistently.

For long term aspect then no doubt that trading can really give out that chance on making money on longer runs which you cant even possibly or hardly do on gambling.
We are basing luck based and skill based things on here so theres no question among the two if whose be the one who can able to give out profit but on a lesser risk.
Trading can only be considered gambling if you dont know on what you are doing specially on leverage which is more higher risk than on conventional way of trading.

There is a big difference between traders and gamblers; First, the trader always relies on the trading system, and secondly, the trader is not controlled by greed. In trading, greed can provoke a trader to increase trading positions without a clear basis of analysis, deviate from the system, and ignore risk management.

I think for a short term, trading could also give the chance of making money as long as we can choose the right coins to trade. But in gambling, no matter if that is a short term or long term, you are hard to make money, and even you will have the money, and you will not realize that. I agree that trading will be gambling if the traders don't know how to make analysis and he only buys the coin without research.

But there are still many traders who have greed with the aim of getting a big profit, therefore many traders suffer losses due to this. And for gamblers it is also the same as merchants in emotional matters. If we play gambling with greed, of course you will experience losses and losses.

I think that gambling in sport betting is similar to leveraged trading because sport betting has lower limits as the maximum bet that is in the slot machine and in the slot machine if you hit max bet you can lose a lot of money in a short time.

Leveraged trading aims to do this to make you minimize loss by setting a limit to your trades.Both have turned normal persons into addicted ones so both are dangerous.

We have different philosophy brother! I am also take my risk at trading than gambling. In trading, I can wait before the price goes up. Eventhough, it is too dangerous to trade specially in bearish market, I will choose it than to bet in gambling. Though, I am also betting in lots of gambling site. However, I don't want to lose all of my money from them.

I don't think that the traders will not be controlled by greed because many traders cannot take their profit because they want bigger profit. Greed will always be on our side no matter in the trading or the gambling. But we have the power to control our greed so we can reach the goals we want, especially in trading, we can always take the profit if we can prevent greed.

Being greedy is an inevitable thing and what you are talking here is just a common sense for someone need to be done specially on trading.Setting out goals or profit taking is a must but there are really some instances which you would need to risk up a little bit to maximize profitability.This do always matter with risk management because not all actions that are longing for more profits can be considered as greed anytime.

I think was all that are happening in life of a person is like gambling it's very risky. Yeah trading is like gambling you can win and you can lose. It needs  patience do not do it at once play one at a time you don't need to rush everything you can do it according to what your skills can since we are also relying at luck something we need to be careful still.

Greed is one of the major psychological elements of human emotions. What really matters is how you control the greed. I personally don't compare trading with gambling, even the leveraged trading is also not comparable with gambling.

Both are risky but trading is calculated risk and gambling is uncertain risk. Greed may drive us in choosing our own method of making money,  but the methods are totally different!

It's exceptionally easy to become greedy in leveraged trading, especially when you've got the ability to potentially multiply your stack on just one or two trades. Unfortunately you also get a liquidation price close to your entry with a highly leveraged trade which can mean a tiny movement can wipe you out (potentially your whole account on cross leverage). Greed kills with both gambling and trading, but you're able to do things like TA and different sorts of analysis with leveraged trading and methods of risk management that can make leveraged trading less risky than simply gambling. Unfortunately, a lot of newbies seem to completely disregard simple things like risk management and thus essentially end up gambling.

Greed will lead to losses either in trading or gambling. I think that margin trading is too risky even for experienced traders. On the other hand, normal trading can give higher profit than gambling. But it also requires more skills.

In both gambling and trading we have luck factor alone to get succeeded, those kind of options we need to ignore at anytime. When you want to invest on the gambling please prefer sports betting or your own skilled games. As like that in trading you can do the simple limit sell trading and make money, if you go margin trading you will be stuck and may have more possibility to face the loose.

Trading needs luck but not completely based upon luck, but when it comes to gambling most of the time it is going to need Luck to win the game. If you are lucky you are going to make money through trading or gambling but if it is not meant to be then don't do gambling just give a efforts to increase your skill of crypto trading and try to make profits

Disagree with you on this mate, gambling is different from trading becasue is only gambling that's luck oriented while trade has some sort of professionalism, experience and strategies. As a gambler, most of my winnings come from luck compared to my early days in trade.

Both gambling and leverage trading can be a good source to get high profits depending to what extent of leverage a trader will put in his trade however, gambling and leverage trading can't be a comparison to each other because they are two different things. Gambling is when you bet on something and it is mostly pure luck because no strategy can be used to guarantee your winning unless if you do sports betting where you can base your bet on facts and the statistics of the team your betting and the chance of winning is high. Leverage trading on the other hand is also called a margin trading wherein a user can leverage his cryptocurrency or dollars by borrowing funds which will enable them to increase the trade amount which in return can result to higher profits if you trade right. However, it can be very risky so a trader should study and analyze the market very carefully to make sure the trade is right because if you trade in the wrong side of it then you can lose everything and you still have to pay the leverage that you have applied to that trade.

The only difference is there could be things that could lead to a rise or loss of price for a longer period of time unlike gambling which is compeletly unpredictable.
There are many ways to speculate the price change but recently, there have been about 10% of price change in every couple of days and so on.
And as the price would be same for all paticipants, you can also follow the leading investor to copy thier winings.

A leveraged trade mostly has its risk in the setup and being stopped out from a move that immediately goes the wrong way.   The advantage to the trade is that once you call a trend right it can continue for much time, a long on BTC at the lows of this year would still be in profit now and continue for who knows how long before you are forced to close it out.

That seems like a big reward to risk return, gambling I think tends to be more short term immediate pay off and possibly you build up a skill playing a particular game

I don’t think that gambling is not short term because you can also make it in a longer term. Leverage trading on the other hand can also be done in a short term and day trading can be do several time. I think what actually differentiates the two is the level of risk involved. I think leverage trading is far less risky than gambling.

Fully agree with  you.  Playing on bitmex very similar to roulette. If you are using low leverage it is like betting on red/black. If leverage is high - then it is like betting on a number. You can win a lot, but your chances are lower. Just don't forget to setup stops every time, otherwise you can lose everything

Leverage trading qualifies as gambling... though a little better than probability based gambling... It  is quite  similar to skill-based gambling because of some level of predictability in bitcoin price especially during a bull run.
If you ask me to choose between leverage and probability based gambling, I will choose leverage. But I will definitely go skill-based gambling than leverage... depending on the situation of cryptocurrency market

No need to choose up because you can eventually do both things as long you would able to handle the risk accompanied with it.

The thing on leverage is that you do have basis on what you are doing.It can really be considered gambling when it comes to rewards
which we know that it can be possibly big but somehow it do have same equivalent when it comes to losing.

I found it pretty much same, tried leverage trading for first time yesterday, made some cents with 10x leverage then went all in at 100x leverage ($11, in case you are wondering) and lost it all.

I agree, you can consider leverage trading as gambling because you gamble by borrowing money to increase your funds but in leverage trading it isn’t about luck, it is about making the right decision or predictions based on facts and historical data to succeed unlike gambling which is more on luck.

Gambling is different from leverage trading. There is a house edge in gambling and for me it is just all about luck to win. While in leverage trading, your skills in ordinary trading can be helpful. It is just its more difficult to learn compared to gambling. Both have risk but I prefer leveraged trading.

there are of course few really long runs in one direction, however in most cases even on a bull movement there are periods of going down quite significantly, which is enough to ruin your wrong call.  Even professional  traders often see market differently and out of the same movement make contradicting conclusions on a next move.

Is it that leveraged trading is a part of a gambling you borrowing money from the broker and play the bet.if you are doing bet involve money is it called gambling. so it is the same for me. you do gambling because you borrow money and you bet.what is the difference of gambling and leveraged trading is it the same? In trading you gamble too because you do risk in trading.in trading you lose and you earn so for me it is the same.

Both have the same levels of risk. It depends now on your expertise. If you are a good follower of some sports then betting is a good choice. The same with a person who specializes on charting and news is fitted for leverage trading.

i guess no  . trading is less riskier because you can choose good coins and you are sure that those coins can grow later on but in gambling you dont know if you will win or loose . gambling is more risky  .


yes . some people hates trading because they find it hard and they go on gambling because they think its easy  . for me i dont choose both but i rather do investing because its more less riskier trading  .

Exactly, there are a lot of people who lose on leveraged trading even their use all their experience, historical data, etc.  Even professional traders draw very different pictures out of the same trading diagram, and one would go long, while other will short.

Almost similar to binary if you put your money to bet on go up or down in a short time of course the chance to win is only determined by luck. But in regular trading you don't feel loss for the all of your capital, in contrast to gambling, if you lose then you will lose all your capital

If you use a small leverage, even with high volatility there are very little chances you get rekt. Moreover if you use a stop loss you can't get rekt.
In gambling you can't use a stop loss!

Trading with leverage is only suitable when you don't have much bankroll but you are pretty sure about the next move of particular pair. Its not advised to make leverage trading as a regular trading practice because it will at some point will lead to forced liquidation regardless of your initial bank roll and profit. I once lost 1200$ after making $600 on the same trading pair with leverage trading. Most of the cryptos keep swinging so its better to put your own money and keep buying/selling with every swing rather than taking loan for buying anything.

However I can't agree that leverage trading can be considered as gambling.

In terms of how easy to takeover yes gambling is far easier than trading, you can just bet all you want and expect luck to permits you no need to calculate and think of anything else, but in terms of chances its much better to take trading if you do have time to research and review more about the market condition for you to take advantages of situations.

     Not all forms of gambling are just based on luck. If someone is a sports better, they can just randomly pick teams to win; however the more skilled gambler knows the players and what is going on with the teams to attempt to make a better determination. Also, in the game of Blackjack, some people keep track of the cards that have been dealt by card counting, which does take quite a bit of thinking. However, even in games that are purely chance, some gambler's still do a great deal of thinking because they believe they have a "system" for picking out certain outcomes.

I actively bet on CS:GO matches at the moment, and I can confirm that I also put time in my analysis of two teams going against each other just like I would be planning out entries, stops and exits in advance for a trade, though if you want to you can just pick one team and cross your fingers too. It's good to note that even with lower leverage, leveraged trading can be a gamble if you're not putting any thinking or analysis into what you're doing. At leverages of above 10x things just become gambling, because your liquidation price is just so close to your entry that a few dollars of movement can mean a liquidation or forced closure of your position.

Ive done tons of CSGO bets and its best done un-leveraged with just your own inventory to spend, win or lose.    Converting into BTC was not a problem as it is also an leveraged space for me and since BTC often rises over years I didnt have much regrets.   CSGO skins can also rise in price, double or more.

The problem with leveraged trading, which I have also done is the cost of finance over night.   Hence the term day traders, as people can not justify the risk and cost of these nightly holds.   Another notable time period would be Fridays when many will not hold until Monday.

Hot money or leverage has a fairly large influence on our various markets including BTC now as its entered futures trading.    Gambling I would always recommend not to mix with money borrowing, not unless you've done it for years and have it registered as your primary job which is almost none of us.