Bitcoin Forum

https://rulings.cbp.gov/ruling/N297495
 (https://rulings.cbp.gov/ruling/N297495)
The US Customs ruling for Bitcoin miners seems half-baked. They treat mining as though it is not a type of data-processing. 

This HS code classification means that US based miners will have to pay a 2.6% tariff on any miners coming into the US from now on. Period.

Anyone know of anyone who is working to fight this? I'd love to connect.

To quote directly from the Ruling,
Based on those guidelines and the fact that an ASIC cannot be reprogrammed - and the plethora of ASIC's in them are the heart of the miners in question - I completely agree with the CBP ruling.

I wrote a paper for my company on this when they asked me to attempt to clarify the ruling. However, as was pointed out, by the letter of what they say there is no room to argue. ASICs are not freely programmable.

2.6% is more than welcome since August.

Our attorneys are full force on this.  Not fun times.

Seems our top broker is looking pretty deep into this too. I'll DM you if there's any news I can share.

I don't see how your attorneys could argue against it.. GPU rigs, sure they should fall under the exemptions as they are freely programmable.

ASIC-based miners however are much like a cash register or hand-held/desktop calculator. Yes modern ones offer high flexibility in addressing their core functions but in the end they are fixed-purpose data devices and both are charged import duty.

Ah my main man donald breathing life back into gpu mining.

Also note that this is from Chinese gear not Japanese gear.

https://rulings.cbp.gov/ruling/N297495


Thus GMO gets a boost

As does Triple-1

both Japanese based.

more references.

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/files/Press/Releases/301FRN.pdf

https://www.usitc.gov/publications/docs/tata/hts/bychapter/1501c85.pdf

Its not arguing the classification, that is the correct one.  It is the filing and pressure of the exclusion to the 25%.

The 25% one is really tough.  But europe has been doing Vat at 17 to 21% for years.

Bottom line it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I think China blinks  then does some concessions to US and tariff ends in under 6 months.

For your business it is difficult.   It leaves you with only GMO and and Triple-1 to source  asic miners.

Not exactly from now on. I just got served a notice of action today for miners I imported in November of 2017 that the now clarified classification will retroactively be applied to all of my imports and this could result in additional fees due.

Since the miners were more costly then the 2.6% is a going to be a lot more per miner.

>:(

This is exactly what happened to us. We received a mid 6 figure bill for things we imported before any of this was even a law.

Now THAT is something I would fight in court!

I do not see any way that CBP can be justified in retroactively charging additional duty from that far back. There is no way an importer could be aware of them not being charged the correct fee because this ruling only came down last June. If CBP has a problem with the new duty fees vs the old ones - that is their problem.

While I am not a lawyer to me it would be the same as retroactively changing (increasing) the punishment for crimes -- that is definitely not allowed.

Do you think for 1 minute that they will try the same thing and go after companies because Tariffs got raised/enacted? Oh yeah, the automakers, steel users, etc would just LOVE that...

Its all so screwed up.

I recently purchased 4 z9 minis from bitmain and paid $37 in customs fees.

My coworker purchased 2 z9 minis and UPS charged him a $506 customs fee.

Both out of the same batch and delivered within days of each other.

Well it appears to me that the new clarification of the classification of the miners is what is causing the additional import fees.

Even before the new 4/26/2018 to 12/31/2050 for 85437099 clasification, the old one from 7/1/2016 to 4/25/2018 under this 85437099 classification the import duties were the 2.6%

Its that now they are starting to understand what this equipment is and reclassifying it retroactively on new understandings.

-M

Yours without PSUs?

His with PSUs?

Without PSUs = a Component = 2.6%

WIth PSUs = a complete unit and a different classification and a 20% fee?

We have the same retroactive corrections, six figures as well, cant fight in court.  At the end of the day, if you import, its your job to know what hts code to use, and correct the import docs if incorrect.  The ruling is only technically a clarification of a status that already existed.

This is a huge cash grab now for the gov, they will eventually hit every import from bitmain ever.

Lesson learned i think is dont write a letter requesting a tariff classification ruling.  I think people have no concept how much that one letter cost the industry.

No PSUs for either of us. Nothing at all different other than carrier.

So after thinking about this, would you consider the xilinx zynq chip to be programmable?

Sure, in the sense that you can write shell scripts, install software, serve webpages, etc.

But it would be impractical to use an antminer for anything besides mining.

Impractical yes of course,  but customs definitions do not rely on practicality, just it can or cant be reprogrammed.

Of course the xilinx SoC is programmable as is the ARM chip used on a RasPi and same for BeagleBone CPU's which are what Bitmain and others used before the s9.

However -- they just handle I/O to the ASIC processors but unlike feeding I/O to a bank of GPU's, the ASIC's have one function and one function only - process SHA256D hashes. That function cannot ever be changed (again unlike GPU's that can readily be programmed to do a plethora of number crunching functions). Those non-programmable super-speed ASIC's are what make any ASIC-based miner regardless of the embedded algo different from the exempt ADP machines. That designed for single purpose function is key to their speed and at the same time their downfall. Ask D3 owners about that.

In this case, that unchangeable core functionality means that by the Rulings any ASIC-based miner has the 2.6% duty assessment applied to it. We are buying these expensive miner to mine with and not to tear apart or re-purpose their relatively inexpensive I/O processors for mundane needs.

edit: In the case of Avalons, at least the controllers - which are just regular, fully programmable and otherwise very nice and useful RasPi's DO fall under the normal ADP exemptions. Just the miners themselves do not.
edit edit: Forgot about the 'data server - no terminal' distinction on the RasPi's so they are not complete ADP's.

Makes sense,

But on a side note, ras pi got hit with tarrifs back in july (we import those as well)  as they are part of an adp machine, they dont classify as full adp machine.  8473.30.20 Unless it includes crt.  switched to bangalore supllier now no tariff, but still the same strange classification.

That is all very true however all large orders are going through import/export brokers or damn well should be for this very reason. It is the responsibility of a brokerage to ensure all applicable codes and fees are correct. When FedEx/UPS/DHL/etc tack on broker fees that is the service you are paying for. As such in my book if CBP wants retroactive fees - go after the brokerages that customers paid to do their jobs right.

forgot about the 'no terminal' subclass. edited post.

I did go through FedEx and they are the ones who sent me the notice of the reclassification and additional fees due.

you guys have it lucky. We pay 15% tax on all miners here in shitbiscuit land.

So what is considered a big order? 4/8/12/16 etc? Or do you have to be designated an importer of mass quantities to be in this boat?

It was anything over US$2500 was subject to tariff before, I guess it's the same only the percentage changed.

So all the way back to 2015 this goes? sh*t at say 100k that is $2,600 bucks. FML.

2.6% plus 25% total of 27.6%

don't think that applies to fees for the ASIC's (others?)

This would be exemption from the new tariffs not the ruling someone "requested".

FYI to the ******* who writes a letter asking what the classification is, you're supposed to tell them by arguing a case. smh.

Again, Disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer!
Personally I would dispute this with the broker and CPB because:
The original shipper and their brokers are who determined which Harmonized Shipping Code to use. We end purchasers have no input on that so how is their screw-up our responsibility?.

Going back to at least 2014, U.S. CBP has accepted import of miners using those codes which of course reinforced shippers and their brokers continued use of those codes.

For large customers, if there were Federal actions underway to re-classify miners, did the brokers at least inform said customers of possible additional fees being levied?

Again, to me I feel the end purchasers should not be liable in any way as this seems to be strictly between the shippers/brokers and CBP. One or all of them screwed up and they are the ones that should pay what's due or ideally the CBP should just eat the previous losses and simply state that starting on such-and-such date all incoming miners fall under the new classifications.

Final customers should be held harmless for this kerfuffle as we had zero input to what happened.

We're in the argument that a consumer shouldn't be charged duties (to a point). Not Joe Shmo's fault production isn't in their country in a global economy. Then retaliatory tariffs are what will hurt consumers and just annoy retailers and manufacturing having to up pricing, alter budgets, or trim to meet them. 

2.6% is a non factor but a 25% tariff will be. I'd apply for relief if you haven't.

Well you could store gear there.  Parts etc and not pay while they are stored.

So it looks like it could be helpful.

As I recall, FTZ's cannot be used as import hubs. They are manufacturing zones and materials/parts coming into them get duty reductions/eliminations. Items produced in them and then sold in this country can be produced cheaper because materials costs are cheaper. By Treaty, items produced in FTZ's that are then exported get the same duty reductions/eliminations upon import into other countries that are part of the trade agreements. Not sure about Tariff's tho I'd think they may also be reduced on a case-by-case basis.

What if you build a mining farm inside FTZ and the miners never leave it? Not sure if there are any FTZs next to cheap hydro power though.

Now hosting in Canada seems more appealing than ever.

That would certainly get around the 2.6% import duty but I doubt would bypass the 25% MIC tariff.

Seems we've working on a loophole but put those relief applications in. Still will be much higher than 2.6%.

So again this is for big shippers? or are they gonna come after everyone since 2015 who got a $2.5k miner or so?

curious

not much I can do about it but pay, assuming they bother to look, I'd also bet money it is the carriers like fed ex and ups

that actually are doing the calculations...no way enough bureaucrats

so if you had 50k of equipment you'd pay a catchup of 2.6% or about $1.300 USD retroactively to the shippers for not following

the 2015 rules sheesh

brad

Relief applications for what: CBP's retroactively charging more import duty and seeking/getting the new duty owed from shipping brokers who of course seek compensation from the final recipient of the miners? As I said earlier, Is there any record of CBP previously disputing the fees paid under the old classification and collecting the 2.6% instead?

For the 25% tariff.

Yeah, I'm only going to owe a few thousand, but that still sucks bigtime.  Fortunately I've already sworn off of buying anything from Bitmain, which was reconfirmed in my mind when they started all this KYC stuff.

From now on, I'll only order from Blokforge and let you guys deal with CBP.

Am rather curious if they are going to hit me for smaller orders, or just called this one out since it was for over $100K worth of gear (back then...).

Canaan requested KYC information as well. If you did order from them you'd know that.

Would be happy to continue to share insights that come across on what we find or are working on regarding relief and exemption but the transparency here is wearing thin and I have no patience for terribly orchestrated marketing.

Then the whole fear mongering aspect, 25% tariff are substantial but there's nothing that complicated about it if you're already used to prior ruling.

Maybe I should just be direct and say that you, *insert company name* guys can do better than this, plus what a melancholy thread to shill on.

Hmm, looking at the MIC Tariff list https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/301/2018-0026%20China%20FRN%207-10-2018_0.pdf I've seen mention of two different tariff amounts: Most items are the 25% BUT later on more were added at only a 10% tariff. Which will miners fall under?

As a side note, it looks like virtually all computers imported into the US will be hit with the tariff. Data processing equipment starts on page 186 of the linked pdf starting at subheading 8470.10.00 Betcha phones fit in there as well.

Unfortunately we have confirmed 25%. So 27.6% total duties as mentioned earlier in the thread holds up in relation to the ruling discussed here. We have a meeting later this week to pursue action before deadlines.

I think there is a 10% temporary tariff on some items and it goes up to 25% in January. But miners as mentioned by minefarmbuy are quite certainly at 25% as of now.

Good to know.  I'm not big enough to order from them directly... sometimes close, but never quite there.  Thanks for the heads up!

25% is confirmed, our customs guy is apparently pretty busy here working on exemption, which will apply for us all for at least a year.

In my experience with DHL and FedEx for imports, not even related to miners, they will often pay the fees up front to comply with Customs to not delay delivery and then they'll send you an invoice later. I've received bills from them almost a year after shipment and if you don't pay they say they will stop shipping to you until you do.

I had a few orders from Bitmain in past 6 months. One I shipped through UPS required me to pay duties before they would deliver to me. Others went through DHL with no duties. I am expecting to eventually receive surprise invoices from DHL.

Well I am in your boat.  My saving  grace is I was charged more then a few times for my shipments.

So I don’t think I will owe thousands of dollars for 2015 to 2018.

I also think my two demo new gen items which were about 3600 and are under the wire for the 25%

I think I owe 200 to 500 usd.

The added tariffs were signed on 8/23 any orders before that are only subject to the 2.6% duty.

We're gearing up to put a lot of resource into exemption of the 25% additional duty for hardware and specifically asic chips. If other interested parties wish to donate specifically to these efforts I'll have an address in my signature once the company passes it to me. 

Hmm, the "specifically ASIC chips" is a questionable area as China has NO advanced Foundries capable of producing 16nm and under chips. TSMC is Taiwanese-owned company and all of their advanced foundries are located in Taiwan. If you want to do business with TSMC don't even suggest to them as a joke that they (Taiwan) are part of China....

True Bitmain, Canaan, and others contracted TSMC to make their chips but technically the chips are not Made In China.

Yea, sorry I'm not familiar with manufacturing of components. Marketing yes, customs no. Conference call tomorrow with a local and national pro in the import export world. If we don't have to worry about chips that will be less to work though with them but maybe more on our back end to recover funds for chip buyers pending discussions tomorrow. I would assume that country of origin matters quite a bit, but i'll pass along after this post ensure this is asked. Notably it will help players in our world country like sidehack and other resellers. Of course mfb as well and importantly all buyers who can facilitate their own orders.   

Substantial completion of the board is china, that is what matters.  We have the same attorneys as another chip manufacturer that ships to china for processing and testing.  Will be sorted out soon enough.

Is BF applying for exemption as well? Should cover market wide for assembled hardware. Wonder how it's viewed with multiple requests for exemption. Your using lawyers for customs work? Not brokers?

Are there any known asic chips manufactured/produced in China?

Because ASIC's as a general family do far more than just mining - I would assume yes. We are talking things like Digital Signal Processors, network switch fabric chips, usb to serial converters, digital watch/clock and calculator chips, mp3 players, etc. Any circuit or collection of circuits that serves only 1 function can be put into an ASIC. However they would be a pretty big node size and the Chinese Foundries are incapable of making anything competitive even with 28nm mining ASIC's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants

That list mentions GloFo planning a plant in China but no mention of what node size it would produce. IMHO it would again be for high node size chips that need to be rock-bottom price for consumer electronics. No way in hell would Global Foundries build a bleeding-edge foundry there. No matter what, safe bet that at least for now the new Tariffs put brakes on that plan.

Yes attorneys that are specialized in CBP matters.  The more the better.

Was able to sit on the call since we'll be soliciting support from the community here. A short list of needs as exemption will apply for us all.

HTS codes for all products being imported from china we wish to file for exemption, we can submit our own ruling if one is not specific enough. Once we have all HTSUS codes we'll move with exemption(s).

Essentially the argument is that the US doesn't offer our products and manufacturers in the US aren't infringed upon if exemption is granted. Consumers and business will only suffer from the added tariff, all things we know.

Our contact is a mentor of one of our team members and so we'll hold off on donations. They'll contact their DC connections once we have all the code/rulings and then we'll push exemptions were it will be beneficial to our businesses and consumers. They would like all HTS codes for the products we source, others sell, and consumers buy whether directly for indirectly.

Feel free to post codes here, or DM me for products known. We'll gather a comprehensive list to deliver and begin work. It looks good with domestic manufacturers are on our side so for GS and Obelisk we'll be reaching out to them for support. If there are other asic mining manufacturers I'm not aware of domestically let me know as well.

Our deadline is 12/18/18 to file.

847150409 is the HS code Inno used to import my T2T

36600268 for S9s that entered on 11/18/17.

Sorry was looking for list for HTSUS codes for products outside of the units. Like RiPi's, psu's, pdu's. Essentially a comprehensive list of codes for us to run though with our outsourced help. Since we can apply for exemption for each product it would be best to do them all together.  

If you are getting retroactive duty charges for prior purchases contact us through the website if you want some help.

Just note every assembled mining unit should be under the 8543709960 HTS ruling linked here.

Well we got list of the products we have posted out to our contact. Hope to hear back soon and start working on our exemption filings. Obelisk has responded to our request, we'll see how that plays out.

Obelisk is a USA company, so I gather you are out of the USA. Let us know, how they approach this. Maybe it will be easier to get an exemption going out of USA then coming in. good luck

brad

No, we're US based. Essentially the tariffs are to "enhance" US production, being there are only a couple manufacturers in the states having their support will bolster our position for exemption and may benefit them as they'll potentially need to source parts themselves from China.

That brings up an interesting query: Do the new 25% tariffs apply to any miner-related components made in China? eg, inductors, resistors, caps, etc. I know they apply to a helluva lot of optical components and laser diodes.

If they do (or in the future, can) how it could effect Non-China based companies that offshore production to China? CoilCraft (US owned) comes to mind for one, they make high current inductors as seen on all hash boards. Wonder if they would be exempt?

So I have been working with a customs attorney on this situation and from what we understand is components are not a part of the tariff.

For example, if china ships the individual cats that form Voltron to Canada. If they are reshipped to the USA as is they would face the tariff. If you combined the units into Voltron and shipped Voltron over, you would not be subject to the tariff because the product is materially different from the way it left China.

It's possible you could include the components into the same ruling as BF posted a page or so back as it addresses accessories and parts as part of the ruling. Off shore manufacturing is ruled the same as regardless of there the company is based. Nike makes footwear in China, shoes are still imported and subject to duties (for example, not sure what footwear rates would be).


Components are part of the new tariff, but as you describe if assembly is done outside of China prior to import would only be subject to the 2.6% not the additional 25% if a full "ADP machine". The real move would be to manufacture components in such a way outside of China as to bring them still into the US as a component, would alleviate any duty if classified correctly.

So assembly of the cats in CAN, then importing the cats into the US to form Voltron, to fit the example given. Of course receiving exemption makes all this effort null and still reduces costs for all parties keeping chains developed intact. Worst case this example would fill the bill if exemption is not approved. Our biggest argument is the fact that the US would be reducing, delaying progress and traction we've gained in the mining arena in what is billions of dollars of potential revenue.

If no relief is found by the new year then USA-based miners will almost undoubtedly miss out on the wave of next generation machines. I know that there isn't a single next-gen machine that, priced as they are today, is profitable in a year in terms of pure BTC return of capital for me (I have free power...). I will say that the 921 is an exception at the $1049 price point, yielding a 0.01BTC profit after 12 months with free power.

Just for the record for everyone, I've received a bill for both 25% under 9903.88.02 and 2.6% under 8543.70.9960 via FedEx for an order of 18 x S9j with an import date of 9/15/18.

Looks good. What did FedEx charge for customs support?

.3464% processing fee + $25.67

We'll be drafting filings for exemptions across a number HTSUS rulings to be delivered before 12/18/18 deadline. Cost is fairly substantial in five digit range. We'd ask for donations but don't want to presume that our most used rulings will be granted exemption. If you like you can DM me for information on donations. Otherwise if you're a current buyer a portion of our commission charge will be routed to these efforts.

Wishing us all luck.

Hi, we need to solicit help for descriptions of an assembled miner and their control boards. We have a good description of the actual chips and some parts but most of the documentation we find is lacking a bit for our taste to present to the CBP. We want ensure our submissions are thorough.

Outside of aesthetics of housing, fan and asic chips, more details on the guts will be helpful.

For the control board we need a overview of function and materials used. 

Appreciate the help and thank you to those who have donated. We're really thankful this hasn't impacted our small team to severely or service to end users. Our plan is to work through materials, parts, then backwards on units from most current across all known and verified units from china.

Does anyone know the laws in regards to used miners? Do you pay based off of what you paid for the miner or is it a set fee per miner [same price as if it was new]?

good luck with that answer.

but whatever you do don't ask the USA government that question.

Laws? I imagine your just asking if duties apply to import of used products? Yes, same as if new but still only regarding the purchase value. Make sure there is an invoice accompanied inside the package and communicate proper rulings.   

A buddy of mine says that FED EX informed him of the proper codes for ASIC miners. Just saying. I'll see if I can get that code he was told and post it on here.

brad

Page one of the thread here has the correct ruling.

thanks

Constitutional violation, under the "ex-post-facto" part.

This SHOULD be fightable.

---

No - they don't have the capability of producing 16nm or smaller chips at all.
I'm not sure if they can even produce 28nm.

I heard from a buddy that data halls are being billed for equipment delivery..that is not happening...just because delivered there was NOT their equipment...

so probably court..fed ex won't eat these costs and I'm pretty sure any overseas folk that had crap in data halls overseas at the very least will just blow it off

its a mess

Fanatic isn't clear if they were hit the he 2.6% or the combo 27.6%. It would just depend on when they arrived and what tariffs where applied.

From a delivery standpoint, a shipping company would need to collect from the delivery address.

Sounds like your buddy would have collect from who the servers where for and/or potentially soak duties. Want to have timely deliveries and upfront costs, plan for the inevitable. People forget sometimes time is bitcoin too.

We were hit with the 2.6%, the 25% is not back dated. The problem with that was we bought thousands and thousands of miners so the 2.6% was still a big 6 figure number after the fact.

yeah I really, really doubt the data hall (big) is gonna eat Fed Ex costs for equipment delivered to them directly from China for customers who have rented their services and left in droves this last year, taking equipment

with them, etc.

But I doubt Fed Ex will eat these costs either

Guess it is Lawyer time. Fun, Fun!

brad

I wonder how it would affect the 25% part when it's pointed out that the VAST BULK of the value of a miner is the ASIC chips that are manufactured in Taiwan (TSMC) or Korea (Samsung) and NOT in China.

You would have to source the chips separately then. Since the final product is made in china they're subject to the added tariff. I think early in thread we use a "voltron" analogy to explain that.

Just got a fraud alert from Chase.  Fed-Ex tried charging $2785 to my credit card.  Chase declined it.  I'm GUESSING this is the 2.6% tarrif from late last years purchase, but I'll be dammed if I'm paying it without an itemized list.

They did send me a notice about the re-tarriffing back when this thread was started.

Yea, get an invoice. Did they charge you duties when they were imported LY? 

The equipment was duty free at the time, although they charged me fees for dealing with customs.

Has anybody won the argument with Fed-Ex that since they were responsible for dealing with customs, and errors in paperwork are on them?

Technically if you're importing it's your responsibility to submit proper paperwork not FedEx. I would gather the information on the ruling they used at time of import to the one they're attempting to collect on. Things to consider are: if you mine as a licenced business and how much you use FedEx.

As an aside is there not already a 10% tariff on all China goods...or is that something coming down the pike by the Trump Administration in the coming months?

or heck? Is it dead because of the flip to the Democrats in the U.S. House or some other reason?

thanks


So any order of any amount (1) miner from outside the USA...they can come back to you and tell you the import tax (if any) you should pay was incorrect and come after you

for a different amount all the way back till 2015? What I mean is the very 'act' of buying something from overseas (China) that is the inevitable outcome? Even if Fed Ex

or UPS or the US Gov't has it wrong from back in the day?

brad

Lot of mixed info here.

August 23rd or some date like that is the 25 % tariff.

But any miner from China going back to the first one sold in 2011 the Avalon I think.

 is subject to the 2.6% tax

So for me I could get 2.6 % on maybe 10000. For a  260 usd bill.

And I could get 25% on an 1800 miner ordered near the tariff date in august this would be 450

So I think I could be charged as high as 700 or 800.

Basically every miner ever purchased from China from 2011 to 2017 is subject to the 2.6% number.

While the 25% number starts in August 23rd maybe August 28th.

So for me I will not be buying any gear for right now. As I sometimes got charged 3% from 2011 to 2017

And some times got charged zip.

I will need to wait to see if I get billed.

truth be told most if not all my miners from 2015 and 2016 were called 'computers' on the invoices..I paid NADA...if they go back and look at that I'd owe

2.6% easy on everything...so that would probably be in my case about..hmmmm..guessing.... $2,000 USD max? yech!...some of that was pass

thru to other folks, I'll never see and have to eat....yech...ack!

brad

There are multiple sections on the action from this year, the highest is 25% the lowest is 10%. Some came prior to late august, some after but nothing that would affect our area in mining before August. I believe you can find the date in the thread here somewhere.

I won't speculate on politics. 1) cause I don't care 2) cause who knows what these hacks do next.

The shipping company technically shouldn't release parcels till duties are paid. We're used to them expediting service as a benefit for consumers.

Someone requesting a ruling, and these insane tariffs essentially put light on the products and now duties known and required. Please do not ever, by any means requests a ruling. Instead, submit your own for approval by the CBP.

As a business you should pay your duties and file paperwork prior to arrival and just get it out of the way with the rulings at had. If things change you can resubmit if you're due credit otherwise most company's sit on the paperwork since they paid a duty already (typically).

As a consumer you might skate by, you might not. Probably not with a "trade war" as 2.6% can be negligible but 25% is not.

Please remember it's your responsibility to pay duties and most corporations have years and years of back log. It's a never ending process and inefficient as hell.

For Philip's situation if you're waiting for a bill and you know when, where, and how much for every parcel you can get ahead of it. Otherwise, estimate on your books hold those funds and get on with your business knowing you can tackle taxation for future and plan for your upgrades if ready.

I have funds set aside  260 plus 450  which is 710. Much like searing I ordered for multiple people and when the bill was over 2500 I was charged 3% which may have been too high.

when the bills were under 2500 I was not charged.  So for now  I will wait for this to unfold and check on the orders made.  along with the orders that were charge and were not charged.

It is not an end the of world number in my case.  So I will set aside 3 x 710 = 2130 which should cover me.

So 47000 in orders. That is under 1300 and some has been paid.  So maybe  1000 maybe 900.

And 25 btc in orders. This concerns me  I checked what btc value was and at 395 a coin  it comes 9780 but I am now worried that companies could use wrong btc numbers.

Coins were a lot lower when the bill was fully btc.  It would suck bad if they use the wrong numbers current btc is 5500 not 400 so I owe about 260 usd with the correct btc assessment.  I have paperwork and will need to hold at least 1260 usd on the side.

Oh well

We just received a bunch of notices a month or so ago about the 2.6% for orders from last year and now fedex is billing them to our shipping account.

After the first charge of $2000 was approved by the CC we got that cc to stop accepting charges from Fedex, so nothing else would be automatically paid. 

Now it's up to $13k owed.

Any advice on dealing with this?  Does fedex typically accept a small settlement amount after awhile if the bills remain unpaid? 

We never signed any agreement with fedex allowing them to bill these customs charges to our shipping account, or any agreement with them allowing them to put negative marks on our credit if these customs bills went unpaid - but since they are now stuck under our shipping account incorrectly, they presumably could. 

Your agreement is technically with the US government if you're importing. Essentially if your tax id is attached to the waybill you are fully responsible. 13k sounds like a lot but pending what you unit cost is, is what is due.

Received Fed-Ex notifications for my (2) orders above $2500 - now several months after my original notification for a $100K+ order.  Clearly they are working their way down.

Have NOT received an invoice for anything yet, although they recently tried to bill my credit card for that $100K+ order.

I see a lot on here about fed ex sending this stuff out and not much on UPS..or am I delusional?

brad

UPS collects duties, their more proactive to charge prior to delivery like DHL.

ah...back in the day I did pay fees on miners coming in....so perhaps it will not be much of an issue in my case ....(fingers cross)

currently selling at the Black Friday low ...its how I roll....got to stay retired next year...what are the rest of you doing?

the needs must when the devil drives....don't ya know

Anyway. I just think we are gonna see quite a big weekend dump....

brad

I think i will end up paying about 800 to fed ex.  maybe less.

I just grabbed a good black friday deal   a 2 tb ssd for 286 - 57 coupon = 229  - 4% rebate = 219.84 for this 2 tb ssd.

all in all last year was a good year this year not too good.

2 quotes .. high price 1) be careful what you wish for

2nd quote .. you don't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need

just has to hang together to act as a bridge will 2021 (or at least 2020) when I tap into my full retirement....i like not working hopefully having to work for idiots again in the next 1.5 - 2.5 years.... :)

by the by

again, anyone getting any of these notices from UPS? maybe UPS was more on the ball back in the day? I seem to remember at the time paying fees on UPS stuff

and not so much on fed ex (I am probably delusional)

brad

So the 25% duty has a 90 day reprieve?

No.  Duty remains for ASICs...any new duties on other goods (many are currently at 10% and were scheduled to escalate to 25% after Jan 1)

Current duties are still 25% + 2.6%

It does look like they are making progress on easing other tariffs so I have hope this will either go to 10% or less, or be eliminated altogether.

Anyone with anymore info on the possibility please share what you know. Keep us up to date if you can.

I imagine we'll have a burst of celebration posts to inform everyone.

A shipping company has given us a "free ride" on some orders to a certain dollar amount. We're looking at verifying, but there are some stipulations we have to follow for them to soak the duties for us. We'll see how that goes, let me know if you want to be guinea pig.

Not when it comes to this stuff.  :P  Im fine making a few hundred dollars a month small time mining with second hand gear. But I don't need to be ordering gear not knowing what my eventual customs fees will be.

I would always project 27.6% at this point.

So just to update, our attorneys in washington have not found any other exclusion requests at this time, if ours are the only ones that go in we will put up link for positive comments and support.  We have multiple being submitted to cover multiple applications of the technology and interpretations.  This is an expensive process and hopefully benefits the industry as it needs some help right now with current prices.  We will accept high fives in return at the next consensus if it works out.

Interpretations? So you've proposed a new ruling?

Essentially we decided to not pursue mining hardware but went after the materials we source, even those outside of this area as those won't change so frequently. With hardware updating every three months you would have to know what is going to be released for a product exemption of the added tariffs. Just since late august there have been maybe 8-10 new releases? Coupled with de minimus threshold, market valuation, just seemed like patience is all that is needed when looking at product side.

What we really need to look at is supporting our good actors in domestic manufacturing like Gekko Science. 

I'll be excited to see your submits on regulations.gov once available. Exemptions excepted or not I still think congratulations are in order!

Virtually every mining device is a general purpose computer running linux plus a fixed function accelerator.  Is this so different than, say, an android phone which has several fixed function accelerators (like the speech detection 'hello google' hardware, wifi modem, etc.)?

Indeed. The problem is that you can't prove as there is no official firmware for other purposes. If I remember correctly the main point was the single purpose of the device. It can't be reprogrammed (they also said something about according to the manufacturer...).

It would be this simple in my opinion: Sell the unit configured (and marketed) as a webserver (etc.) and ship it with a firmware with some web hosting features. Than offer an ALTERNATE firmware which can mine Bitcoin on the side and/or dedicated.

I think after this it would be justifiable as a general purpose computer. But most of this up to the manufacturer and Bitmain is doing KYC for a while (just as an example what can be expected from the manufacturer).


Unfortunately CBP claims that it was not categorized correctly. So it never was 0%, but YOU did not report it correctly (or the shipping company acting on your behalf). Hence it is your error and there is practcally no limit how long they can go back (according to our customs agent).

It is questionable as their "ruling" came out later, so how should we know?

We should (according to them) be happy that they "only" charge the actual percentage and not a fine (yet).

Yeah they could impose a fine but since the sender improperly did this on a wide scale I don't think they will fine us.

Receiver is responsible for duties always unless noted with freighter. Which is why it's optional for solo buyers to use our tax id and mandatory for group buyers.

Is there any real progress on the USA Tariffs being redacted any time soon or are we looking at another year of 25% tariffs and 2.5% import fees in the USA?

Not saying it matters at the moment. Not a lot of ASIC equipment of any flavor that makes sense to get these days even used stuff.

Just figured I'd ask, you folk may be more on top of what may or may not be happening as far as progress on all this stuff with Tariffs on China/Canada etc, etc.

Trade war on US citizens continues. . . . I mean China.

Also for our Canadian brotherhood: https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/import/courier/lvs-efv/menu-eng.html#_s1

Trump says he is going to expand tariffs with China on Friday. Figured it was appropriate in this thread.

http://time.com/5583450/trump-china-tariffs/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/trump-says-he-will-increase-tariffs-on-chinese-goods-on-friday-as-he-complains-about-pace-of-trade-talks/2019/05/05/774c2e92-6f53-11e9-9eb4-0828f5389013_story.html

Expansion was planned for the beginning of the year. Anything 10% moved up to 25%. For us that's import duties on PSUs.

They announced talks I think Nov'18 to try and negotiate a trade deal looks like we know how it turned out now.

Well, it has now been 1 year since I bought any ASIC's, thus I guess the "hard withdrawal" of the addiction is now passed...

Is there ANYTHING on the horizon (9 months or more?) of any note or possibility? (We are talking 10c kWh Winter rates USA and last I looked now 14c kWh Summer rates for 5 months.)

Yeah. We are 'hosed.' :(

I think it has been good for us I think it restricted difficulty a lot which is a good thing in general.

Of course it absolutely sucks for importers.

But  if you think of the build up of want on behalf of USA buyers a raise to 40%  for the summer then a drop off to 5 or 10% in the fall would make for a huge or bigly amount of purchases.  Thus having a solid fourth quarter pump. I see this happening or at least it is my hope for it to happen.

Just received another order from DHL with only 2.6% fees again. I don't know how it's getting by customs or what Bitmain is classifying them as. There is no indication of the HS code on any of my paperwork or invoices. My previous order had a sticker on the box that said server, so maybe Bitmain is classifying them under 8471.50 again.

Good for you. Remember DHL, Fed Ex, UPS can come after you later for fees. I have a buddy with a data hall and FED EX are trolling back 2 years or so at the max I think. (so far).

It seems I hear MAINLY of Fed Ex being proactive on this. Have not heard of any from DHL nor UPS. (I got most of my stuff UPS back in the day...so whew).

It costs $75 my buddy told me to challenge EACH fee that Fed Ex says you owe. Win or Lose the effort. So far he has just paid. Anyway, how I've heard it shakes out from my end of the universe. (USA).

Just got notified by Fed-Ex about 22 L3's that I bought long long ago.

The fun just never stops.

Yup, best to take care of it all upfront.

How long ago though, if before late August 2018 it should only be the 2.6% due.

Has anyone been getting any of these from UPS or DHL? I've not heard of any. Seems to be all Fed Ex.

So is it simply Fed Ex who messed up and after the fact are getting this fixed, or is it just that UPS and DHL don't give a frack?

(Disclaimer: I've gotten none, but I got my stuff exclusively via UPS.)

Last time I ordered from Bitmain you had to specify the HS code that would be used and that code would be saved to your account settings for future orders. Did they change this recently, to they put a code down?

Duties are taxes, which are due at import by the recipient or in our case if you elect to have us file for you under our tax id. Freighters will often expedite shipments to benefit the consumer cause everyone like timely deliveries.

Like income taxes if you don't file it doesn't mean they're not due.

And noticed FedEx simply billed my credit card a couple days later.

AFAIK, the shipper is responsible for specifying the correct HS code. If they classify it incorrectly, they are responsible for the fraud. For those getting billed later by FedEx, what were the packages classified as and did you pay anything at all originally? Any pre-August/September 2018 should only be 2.6% unless FedEx is using it as a money grab. If they were classified incorrectly, they should really be going after the exporter, not the receiver, but I'd imagine it's easier to collect from the receiver in the states.

The only times I've had them send me a bill later was when they delivered without me paying anything and the last time that happened was probably 15 years ago. Both of my last orders that were 2.6% were held until I paid. I have invoices for import duty/tax being paid, but they specify no HS code. I don't know why they'd collect that amount unless Bitmain isn't classifying them under 8543.70.9960.

Doesn't matter what the exporter does. Recipient is responsible to import duties and coding. It's your job if you order to take the appropriate steps. Like us for example we can order direct with customs support or without it drop shipped to you in your name. The only difference is the tax id associated on the CBP paperwork. Ours or yours (if you file). Otherwise you leave it up to parties who might get it wrong and error don't matter. Again, it's taxes. You make an error and owe you're likely going to find out the hard way. Customs paperwork can be refiled like your tax return.

Unfortunately no one is going to notify you if you paid too much. Simply the burden is on you, or you ignore it, or have someone handle it for you.

It does matter what the exporter does based on agreed Incoterm. If it's DDP, then the exporter is the importer of record.

AFAIK, with DHL Express, they act as customs broker/support, importer of record, and handle all of the paperwork for you. If they are filling the paperwork out incorrectly to have lower rates then it would be a violation of the False Claims Act. They pay the fees initially under their account and invoice you before delivery. I've never had to provide any EIN/SSN or power of attorney for these orders, but they were also within threshold for informal entry. If they make a mistake, then I'd imagine they are the ones responsible as importer of record. Whether they try and then bill me again for their mistake is anyone's guess.

I thought the majority of people getting billed had correct classifications but never paid anything. Is that not the case? I'd imagine it would be more difficult to try and collect a different rate at a later date if classified incorrectly if they can't easily determine exactly what was received. Most companies charged under the FCA are from whistleblowers with insider information.


Edit:
After researching even further, the lower rate may be due to the orders meeting informal entry requirements (below $2,500), but still above de-minimis. Without having any copies of the paperwork, I'm really not sure whether DHL is filling it out or if it's a CBP agent. I'm attempting to obtain copies of waybill. I've read different information that states informal entry paperwork is filled out by customs and they classify the packages. If that's the case, it would seem customs doesn't care about charging additional tariffs on what would typically be personal use. So if you are someone who only buys a unit or two at a time and can stay within the informal entry threshold, you may only be charged the lower rate, where as the additional tariffs are primarily targeting commercial use and large orders that require formal entry.

Even an informal entry is subject to duties, if classification is incorrect would be the issue with any variance from duties/tariff being charged. Informal entry is for personal and small business in most cases and allows for more expedited procedures to take place at port of entry and it is likely this occurring as mentioned a few times in this thread to expedite shipments through customs.

Following is still true.

-Duties/tariffs are due unless shipment meets de minimis.
-Responsibility lands on importer to document/file correctly.

I am aware there are still duties and taxes on informal entries. DHL sent me the import duty/tax invoices and made me pay them before delivery. I haven't been successful in obtaining copies of the waybills or any other paperwork, but from what I've researched, the HTSUS classification for informal entries is determined by a customs officer and they complete all custom forms. Goods are immediately liquidated after payment and being released, meaning it is closed from further review and payment. There is no CBP Form 7501 required like a formal entry.

A formal entry can take up to a year for the goods to be formally liquidated after they are released. They hold your bond or cash as surety that your importation was not in violation of any U.S. laws or regulations and can recalculate duties and tax owed if they find an error or don't agree with paperwork. I can see how FedEx and other shippers would be coming back and charging people for formal entries as their own money is being held for accuracy of paperwork until liquidated. Since informal entries are immediately liquidated, no informal entry is at risk of paying additional duties/tax later if you already paid them. It's essentially on customs to classify correctly before liquidating.

I don't plan on getting any new equipment any time soon since there is lack of supply anyway, but I'll keep ordering directly as the markup U.S. re-sellers add for customs support is pretty much the same or more as ordering direct anyway if you get charged the full 27.6%. I typically only order 1 unit at a time and meet informal entry so I'll keep taking my chances with customs classifying incorrectly and liquidating upon payment. The two orders saved me a couple grand compared to if I ordered from Blokforge and I have paid their markups previously.

I just got a $6000 bill from FedEx. For 20 V9 Miners. I think I'm just going to have to let it go to collections and wish for the best..

https://external-preview.redd.it/lcHzJFYzX9drnpH_GAkvXb_zAj9JrEwv7pjPz344mPQ.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=07f07e5c9f1889db51e780470a92cea741eacb23

I'm confused. Are they hitting you with 27.6% with tariff and import fees for Miners BEFORE the tariff went into effect? (I mean they are V9's for crying out loud).

You also, a friend told me, can dispute at $75 buck fee per instance. That may be worth trying. Good Luck.

Others on here with 'better' knowledge, chime right in. I'm just tossing this out off the cuff.

brad

I would imagine there's error. Most V9 sales were so long ago 25% wouldn't be introduced. Would be much better to talk to someone now, collections is a bad idea.

I'm out here looking up how likely it is I would get sued and how they would ever serve me papers since I don't live in America. But you guys may be giving me some semblance of hope. I remember getting a similar notice from UPS from something a while back, but it was only for a few hundred, so I just paid it without any fuss despite it coming in MONTHS after the fact.

What's weird is her response to my email is written in garbage english, and the fedex.com URL in her signature isn't even spelled correctly.

I called up the phone number and got to a voicemail that did match the name though. I have not yet received any instructions on how to pay.

The V9s were imported on Feb 14, 2018. I do see the thing about disputing for $75 each. Should I be talking to a lawyer about this?

Here's all the info I have if you guys don't mind taking a look..
I suppose I could take out a loan to pay this off, but honestly, I'll probably just dodge it if I can.

https://imgur.com/a/X9xil4f

Contact fedex directly from their website, this sounds and looks scammy so you're probably fine. Just tell them about about possible scam mail. Imagine it will end there.

Total bill ends up being about $75 or something. The new fee is just 2.6% of the original declared value. Person at FedEx who was communicating with me via email just doesn't really have any regard for grammar and spacing, and how to spell fedex.com.

A 6084 is a TYPE of bill, that they assumed I would understand, rather than meaning a bill for $6084. Crisis averted, thanks all.

It is interesting that these orders are over a year old and have not been liquidated yet. They are supposed to automatically liquidate after 314 days unless customs extends the time, which they can do three times in one-year increments. That means it can take over 3 years for formal entries to liquidate. Is all of the redacted info your personal info or FedEx's? They are listed as the importer of record on the one form.

On the docs I received. It says the liquidation date is 0/0/0000.

Perhaps that's something I could use to my benefit? It really looks like the employee I'm dealing with doesn't give a shit about anything.

Okay so you owe 75$  correct?

If all it is 75$ you may be better off paying the 75$.

Especially if you have a lot of orders not processed yet.

You would be better off paying for the 75$ and not digging up more orders.

Of pissing off an a-hole clerk at fedex.

Correct. The total owed will just be around $75 which is 2.6% of the original stated value. No big deal.

I would pay it.  And hope you are done.
I have paid six bills for about 400.  But I think I am done.

FedEx has not shipped to me in more then 14 months

Again, is it ALL FedEx with these issues? I've not really seen any UPS stuff flying though here for past stuff due import wise...or did I just miss such?

Anyway, seems the odds of UPS are better than FedEx at this point in time. I've like 95% UPS and have not (yet) gotten anything bill wise as an adjustment.

Wondering I was on above.

edit: heard today from a buddy that got 2 L3+ units from www.eastshore.xyz (http://www.eastshore.xyz) and he paid NO tariff. Just saying. FYI.

My guess would be that it is primarily FedEx and customs discovered they classified large amounts of orders incorrectly. Other shippers either classified correctly, entries liquidated already, or they are eating it themselves. If you look at the paperwork the last guy posted, FedEx is listed as the importer of record and they certified the accuracy. Importer of record is liable for taxes and duties, but customs can go after the ultimate consignee. These letters show that customs is going after FedEx though. In return, FedEx is sending letters stating that additional duties may be charged.

The interesting thing in the last guy's situation is that FedEx received the notice from customs in April showing that a rate advance has been taken. FedEx claims they will pay it and then bill him if they receive a bill, but show no proof they actually received a bill or paid it. 19 CFR 152.2 only allows the importer of record 20 days from the date customs mailed Form 29 to dispute why the rate advance should not be taken, otherwise it's then liquidated with the new rate. These letters do not indicate whether FedEx disputed it and ultimate consignee was notified by FedEx more than 20 days after FedEx received Form 29, yet they want you to pay $75 to dispute it after they no longer can, indicating the shipment has already been liquidated, as their formal protest citation is for liquidated entries. They also list the liquidation date as 00/00/0000 probably to cause further confusion to get you to pay.

For small amounts I'd just pay, but if it was something large, I'd consider ignoring FedEx's requests. Once FedEx has already paid it and it's liquidated, customs is not coming after you. It'd be a different story if customs sent Form 29 to you directly. FedEx can try to collect from you somehow or even refuse to ship to you, but unless they showed proof they actually paid the rate advance, I wouldn't pay them a penny more. Being a large company, it's possible they could have easily worked out a deal with customs to settle all of these incorrect classifications for a lesser amount than what was actually owed and are now just trying to recoup their expenses by sending letters to customers.

Anyone seen any 'experts' on this 25% policy being reversed soon? Not saying at the current difficulty with Bitcoin and other Crypto Coins, it still would make a lot of sense to get an ASIC POW miner of any crypto flavor. But damn, this 25% import tariff kills that idea, dubious or not, deader than dead, as soon as a 'concept' of such crosses my mind!

I'd like to think it was going to happen from current progress within the last month at most say 2 months from now. But that is a wild and half-assed guesses/hopes/whatever.

Anyway, just tossing it out there. Hopefully, folk are more on the ball progress than me on here and can post some links.

Brad

---

Just an aside. IF you managed to get say a 'demo' unit from an ASIC manufacturer inside China to send you a unit FREE for review. (yes, I mean this for you Philipma1957, I'd never have your luck)..but anyway, if the unit was free, there would be no 'tariff' per se right? Now that might be too 'cute' but at least, if a trusted 'reviewer' of this 'demo' ASIC product, IF you did keep such after the 'review'. You would only have to pay the 'retail price' in that the tariff, did not apply? (again, sketchy and unlikely, but worse that would happen is you'd pay the tariff on your demo unit before or after the fact....looking for an 'angle' here dubious or not) :) (Note: This only applies to Philipma1957 us other 'non-solar' minions don't approach his god-like powers to pull this off) :)

But again, how do 'tariffs' apply to goods that are sent to say the press/or to be tested at U.L. labs or above? Free is Free right? Thus, NO tariffs?

Chances aren't likely many receive a demo at zero cost but technically duties (with tariff) are subject to 27.6% of unit cost times unit quantity. Maybe free is free but without researching further myself, I might expect duties to be due on the CI value. Regardless either way is deal on a unit.

So my guy in Clifton wants 50k in new gear.

He has trust worthy people in the PR

So if he brings in 50k to Puerto Rico is that the USA?

No guessing.  I know that the PR was subject to weird import rules when they were getting aid for the Hurricane.  Trump had to waive some bizarre thing. That waiver is over.

So maybe that rule would help anyone that has a PR connection for shipping.

Could help a lot of people here if it is a clean loop hole.

Found this on google, it is basically referring to the 'past' tariff's with Mexico and Canada on such. Also future EU actions.

https://pasquines.us/2018/03/15/trumps-trade-war-would-affect-puerto-rico/

So even though you said NO guessing, I'd find it hard to believe that if those apply, China would get a pass. :(

will keep looking

Brad

---

Well found this: Seems that USA custom rules apply. So the tariff would be a go, just like the rest of the USA in Puerto Rico. :(

https://en.portal.santandertrade.com/international-shipments/puerto-rico/customs-procedures

Yeah oh well. I agree that is a closed loopHole.

At this point any loophole is moot unless you can find s (omeone in Mexico trustworthy ship it there and then drive it into the USA in that manner.

(Damn, unlikely) Alas!

10% additional tariff to China announcement below:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/01/trump-says-us-will-impose-10percent-tariffs-on-300-billion-of-chinese-goods-starting-september-1.html

So now we are at 36.7%, with the previous 25% tariff and 2.6% regular import fees. Thus this added 10% tariff starting Septemeber 1st,  on Chinese ASIC miners of any flavor.

I'm not sure what price of BTC or any crypto altcoin would have to be at the current difficulty in the USA would 'float the boat'. Add pre-orders to this and no way to any indeed!

A buddy says he also expects, regardless of the above, that BTC difficulty will double by the end of this year.

Sheesh.

This should be a great help to China. It's not like they are buying U.S. made ASICs.
What a moron Trump is.

not going to happen we won't be at a diff of 19 by dec 31.

Barring a price of 20k for coins.

a diff of 19k means  all s9's will be turned off if coins are 10k    there are at least 35-45eh of the current 75eh   it more then ½ the network.

at 19 diff price of 10500 the s9's are worthless at 4 cent power.  So the network would need to add a ton of new gear and drop all the s9's

of course if price is 20k  s9's are still good and diff could 2x by jan

Hey friend, I may be buying some of antminer ASICS soon.

I was wondering if DHL ever hit you up for the duty fees?

I really appreciate any info you might have!    8)

They do, they are worse than Fedex. DHL withold a miner from the shipment until they received the their fee.

Unless it's under de minimis.

I gather by the above you mean there is a minimum that tariffs do not apply?

Or has that boat sailed as well? (Of, course, does not apply to us, and the USA, but figured I'd ask, anything we get is well over that limit if it exists, anyway)

I don't suppose with the new tariffs, we can get an exempt like some technology companies are trying to do?

Not exactly sure why I'm even bothering trying to follow this 'snipe hunt' anyway. Even without the soon to be Septemeber 1st, 2019 increase in tariffs by 10% to a total of 37.6% with import fees, that any of this mining ASIC equipment of any flavor of any algorithm, be it BTC/LTC or whatever, would make sense on this FOMO pump anyway. Guess it is just a habit.

Anyway, if there is STILL a minimum where USA tariffs don't apply, let me/us here know. Unlikely to matter, but would be good just to know.

(I need a better hobby, then following dubious ASIC miner purchases and how they interact with dubious USA tariffs)

sheesh

Brad

two s9k. Are 620 plus 178 shipping or 798 therefore tax exempt .

You will need to find a psu state side or like me have 10 or 20 sitting on a rack doing nothing.

So $800.00 USD, or below is Tax-Exempt from the full tariff or just the import fees?

Re-Read above and going to assume you only pay the 2.7% import fees on such.

hmmmm..interesting

not a damn lot to choose from but interesting

brad

you may have to pay the 2.7%   but I can cope with that  and the 6.75% NJ state sales tax.

but 25%  + 2.7% + 6.75% = 34.45%

soon to be

35% + 2.7% + 6.75% = 44.45%

if I choose anything but the s9k.

Interesting. I suppose I have to pay 7% Minnesota Sales Tax. I suppose I learned something.

thanks

Brad

I found this article on Oct 16th, 2019 and the tariffs.

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/2168679/they-were-minting-money-making-cryptocurrency-mining-gear

The 'interesting' line is how the USA classifies the ASIC MINERS as “electrical machinery apparatus” vs previously “data processing machine”.

(Unsure on another note how this affects USA Taxes in that when listed as a computer previously, I could take the 5-year deductible off 'computers' all in 1 year for the full 25% rather than the usual spread out off equipment depreciation, I THINK, it was over each year till 5 years...anyway this is an aside if anyone has clarity on such.) (doubtful) :(


So the key here is on these USA tariff exemptions you want to look for "electrical machinery apparatus" now...but that is so frigging broad now we are likely locked in until this whole China Tariff war is over, which may still take 1-2 years, IMHO.

Anyway, found this classification change, figured I'd point it out on the tariff. I was unaware no longer can be classified as a computer for USA tax equipment deductions.

For all, I know this NEW classification is better, if not for tariff, then for tax purposes. But the went to the trouble of actually CHANGING this, so again, IMHO it means something.

So it either means 1) same old same old or  2) something good or 3) something worse as regards to mining ASIC equipment purchases.

Hopefully, others on here have a better knowledge of such stuff above then myself and can post here on such.

later

Brad

No this is trump/tax/tariff war with China.

You guys have vat  to deal with.

I never claimed to not pay duty fees. They only charged the 2.6% and no additional fees. They were under the amount to meet informal entries, while also being above de minimis. If you have to go through formal entry, then you will definitely pay the higher fee unless you falsify the paperwork. If you go through customs as an informal entry, then it's up to the customs officer filling out the paperwork for how the fee is determined and their responsibility. Informal entries are liquidated at time of release from customs meaning that they can't come back or charge any additional fees. As soon as you pay the fee, it's liquidated and that's final. Customs determines the fee for informal entries and fills out all the paperwork. If they classify an informal entry wrong, then you luck out and pay a lower fee.

Formal entries are different. You, shipper, agent/broker, etc. fill out the paperwork for formal entries and attest to accuracy of classification and fees. Customs has over a year to review formal entries before liquidating. If they find errors with your classification prior to liquidation, they will come back and charge you the additional fees.

The only people I've seen getting hit with additional fees later are from formal entries that haven't been liquidated that were classified incorrectly by themselves, shipper, broker, etc., not already liquidated informal entries classified by customs. In all of my shipments since the Section 301 tariffs went into effect, it would appear that CBP's policy (at least in New York) is to not apply the tariffs on any informal entries, not just de minimis informal entries. FedEx's regulatory update on it interprets the CBP FAQ differently and says only de minimis informal entries are excluded. I would avoid using FedEx since their own brokers are the ones that got them in trouble for misclassification.

I've had multiple orders, all single miners that were informal entries above de minimis, and have yet to pay anything above 2.6%. They were all shipped by DHL. I recently ordered a T17 with coupon that meets de minimis and waiting to see how they interpret that.

philipma, I had to think of you when I watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw7PUrgU3N0

Its sad, very sad ;)

This still seems to be the case. I just received my order for a single S17 Pro via DHL processed through NY and was charged only 2.6% (approx. $67). Shipped from Malaysia. No 25% tariff. I paid DHL the 2.6% while the shipment was in transit.

I have another pre-order for a single S17e through UPS. Let's see how that works out.

No I got stuck  618 + 624 for 2 units a  s17  a s17pro

buysolar paid 67

my clifton hoster paid 147 for 2 s17pro.

All orders were delivered between oct 21 and nov 1

why  did I pay full mine shipped out of China not Malaysia

So I know have  2 t17e due to ship any day nov1-nov10

if they ship out of china I will owe 3330 x 27.6%   =    919.00
if they ship out of Malaysia I will owe 3330 x 2.6% =      86.50

As I bolded,the miner was not just shipped from Malaysia, it was assembled there as well- not China, ergo no Tariff.
For the umpteenth time here, only goods Made in China get hit with the Tariff.

Bitmain would do well to continue building units in a malaysia factory.

The chips are made in Taiwan  which is in a gray world of  not being mainland China  in the eyes of the USA.

Since the chips are well over 60% of the cost of a miner. Assembly in china  vs Malaysia is a huge price difference for us in the USA.

We have ordered 6 s17pros and 1 s17 they have been shipped from Oct 25 th Oct 31

5 from malaysia total tax under 400

2 from China total tax over 1200

If all were from China taxes would have been more then 4000   so paying 1600 vs 4000 is nice for our farm.

However

 I have  2x t17e  at 3330
 I have  1x t17    at   952
 I have  1x t17+  at 1650

total 5932 - 375 coupon = 5557 subject to taxes of some kind

 1637 full tax no coupon discount and made in China
   154 2.6% tax no coupon discount and made in Malaysia

I know they do not discount tax based on coupons as I have always had taxes based on pre coupon prices.

But  154 vs 1637  is  a new machine for me.

I could easily order the t17+  right now if I was sure all the gear was assembled + shipped from Malaysia.

In fact  if I was not burned  already  around 1050  on the two units shipped from China .

I would have ordered a 1252 unit already got a 150 coupon and then ordered the 1650 unit. for 1650-150 = 1500

so the lack of clarity on bitmain's part costs them sales ,in my case 2 pieces at  a cost of 2752, to  USA buyers.

It is really hard to buy gear not know if you pay 27.6% tax or 2.6% tax.

No doubt. According to the waybill it was shipped for Bitmain c/o Flextronix. Probably costs a few bucks more for Bitmain to have Flextronics make them in Malaysia, but that amount means nothing for a $2K miner.

All of mine with the 2.6% were shipped from China with "Made in China" stamps and SZX (Shenzhen) origin codes on boxes and labels. Still have the boxes. August 2018, April 2019, and May 2019. All single miners and informal entries above de minimis.

This post could cost you money.   As you are claiming you know the gear was due to pay the tariffs.

They were informal entries and liquidated at time of release when I paid the 2.6% tariff determined by customs agent. This was not me, Bitmain, shipper, broker, or anyone else determining the import duty or classification. It was determined entirely by customs and liquidated by them. Informal entries are classified by customs and liquidated at time of release. Formal entries are classified by importer of record and can be reviewed for over a year prior to CBP liquidating. Liquidation is final. I believe this is where people are confused with CBP or shipper demanding additional fees. Additional fees can only be assessed on entries that have not been liquidated.

When you paid the higher fees for an S17 and S17 Pro, was it an informal or formal entry? If they were both part of the same order then it would be above informal entry limit. I am only speculating that CBP is not applying the 301 rulings on informal entries since all of my informal entries have only been the 2.6%. Everyone I've seen saying they had fees reassessed were for formal entries not liquidated yet.

If they want to come after me and have me pay for already liquidated entries due to their own rulings, I'd have no problem with it, but I don't foresee it happening. I even tried to get paperwork on what they classified the entries as and all I could get was the waybills from DHL with no classification.

Tariff news

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxbusiness.com/politics/china-us-agree-to-lift-existing-tariffs-in-phases.amp

Likely, now that we are under 'electronics' so to speak here, this will be the LAST tariff lifted, in that it is the elephant in the room as far as imported China goods, IMHO.

From what I gather, this first phase is mostly agriculture and misc.

I pre ordered 4x Whatsminer m20s from Pangolinminer... they are coming from China. Delivered via DHL between dec 15-30

Has anyone from USA ordered from them recently? Also what kind of taxes will I be seeing once they are shipped and how will I be notified to pay them?

I emailed Pangolinminer and they said that they haven’t had issues with the trump tax but could not guarantee that I’ll avoid it...  ???

Pango doesn't have to pay the tariffs so yes, they don't have to worry about it. You're likely liable for 37.6% duties+tariff on unit cost.

27.6%  if I am not mistaken.

I have paid trump tax  on bitmain's gear.  1228  for 2x s17's

I have paid trump tax on innosilicon's gear   350 a few times.

I avoided trump tax on the m10 units from pangolin  each one of the eight I ordered was under 800  I ordered them 1 at a time.

grand total of 8 x 790 = 6320  but all a week apart. so no issues.

My guess is  you will get caught and owe %27.6 x 8000  = 2208

if they wrote them up at 2000 a unit.

You should have asked them to list the price at 500 each

so 4x500 = 2000

I am curious  as to how much you will be stuck .

I think I paid more the 2200 this year on gear ordered.

37.6% duties + tariff.

https://hts.usitc.gov/?query=8543709960%20

wow missed the jump from 27.6 to 37.6. freaking nuts 🥜!!

at cannongentry please tell us what happens.

I'm confused? Is this what they are charging in China now, because of the anticipated 10% tariff hike on December 15th? Or is this something else an 'upping' of the 2.7% import fee to 10% on ASIC miners (ie electronic components)?

Thanks...just lurking..not buying...but seems quite the clusterf*ck for those who are 'brave' enough to get ASIC equipment.

later

Brad

I WOULD HATE TO  PAY 37.6%  TAX ON 4 m20s units..   it would be more then 3000

but what is with the post that states 37.6% is that just 'anticipating' the 10% tariff by the time your supposed China unit hit USA shores? (unsure how that works)

I understand the chart and all..just when/if/how it applies? now? dec 15th? whichever?

I don't recall the date but it's been a while now. "Late summer" just off hand.

The chart linked shows it as a 2.6%. The 35% and what's in column 2 only applies to products from Korea and Cuba. Section 301 is still 25%, so it's still 27.6% total. You just add what's in column 1 with what Section 301 ruling is. 8543.70.99 was listed in the June 2018 $16 Billion Trade Action (List 2) proposed listing here and has not changed: https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2018-13248.pdf

This is the August 2018 notice of action listing and when it went into effect:
https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/enforcement/301Investigations/2018-17709.pdf

Thanks, I was more than a bit, befuddled.

As far as I can tell from the news the 10% increase in China tariffs is still gonna go into effect on December 15th, unless some miracle happens, here in the USA.

Man, the 25% tariff is just one of like 20 or so clusterf*cks going on in the USA as we speak, sheesh...I wonder if the talk is true on more tariffs on the EU as well?

Is it true to say the consumer is paying the tariffs not the makers or originating nation.   China has supposedly devalued their currency to account for some of the difference but I'm not sure thats helped.   If the hardware can be used anywhere in the world then the only people its hurting is the country operating the tariffs so its basically another form of taxation on those particular goods.

Well, this recent article says that is exactly what China is doing to offset tariffs.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3013678/china-letting-value-yuan-slide-offset-trade-war-tariffs-us

China also 'doubles' infrastructure projects to offset tariffs

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3033564/china-doubles-value-infrastructure-project-approvals-stave

The catch is China has many more options to play with as a quick-acting centralized system to counteract any tariff effects by the USA. The above also does not account for the other thing China has....trade surplus per year on top of the above.

Anyway, how it looks are ASIC tariffs are gonna be here for quite a while yet. Then even if the tariffs go away, the USA still has to account for the other advantages China has above.

sh*t

Brad

Yes. This is exactly how tariffs work. The importer pays them, not the country of origin. If you are a consumer importing directly, you're paying 100% of the tariffs to U.S. customs. If you're buying from a re-seller that imported the goods, then they are marking up the goods to offset the tariffs that they paid to U.S. customs. Tariffs primarily hurt the consumer. They only hurt the manufacturers if the tariffs are high enough to make people no longer want to import. While Trump claims China is paying the tariffs, that's simply not true. China pays absolutely nothing on his tariffs. It's 100% on the importer. The billions he claims that are paid by China are actually paid by U.S. importers. He's just clueless.

Again, if you want to delve into economic detail google on why China has the advantage of this tariff, besides it benefiting China.

1) China has very little to worry about from the tariff side from their buying..it is the other way around.

2) China has a growing trade surplus with the USA so that also mitigates the tariff from China's point of view.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/14/china-2018-full-year-december-trade-exports-imports-trade-balance.html

3) China can do more infrastructure projects on a quick say so, as a centralized economy and that also mitigates the tariff's effects as well.

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2183977/china-ramps-infrastructure-spend-stave-economic-slowdown-and

4) China manipulates Yuan currency to also mitigate tariff's influence

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/business/economy/us-china-yuan-renminbi-trump.html

5) Of course, China also uses Capitalism as a means to keep power. If they needed to, they would toss markets under the bus further to keep Communist party in power.

https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2119839/how-communist-china-has-embraced-capitalism-remains-leninist

We, the USA have as our only 'real' lever the imprefect shooting ourselves in the foot consumers eating the tariff costs as our redress. No way in hell, unfortunately, can China not win this battle. The Communist party of china does not care about profits, but eventually, the USA will crack and get rid of tariffs giving even more power to China in the economic front. I hope I'm wrong, but this whole mess tariff and otherwise is gonna end badly. We should have kept with the allies and the large asian pacific trade deals. As it is, we shot our load with tariffs and now have to eat the consequences.

My own view is the tariffs will continue into the Spring of 2021 if there is a new Presidential administration. We are likely stuck till then, again, IMHO.

or  usa companies leave china and use India for cheap labor.  Thus china is a big loser.  As to this happening ask guys like Tim Cook. Frankly I don't  hate the tax I rather us set up factories inside India. This would give usa two spots to build goods to send here. Not just china. Not a big fan of usa companies that only use china to build gear. Fuck them.

Korea or Singapore would be best regarding duties specifically.

Always wanted to visit Singapore would love to see usa get more building and exporting from them.

I thought the entire point of this was to get US companies to manufacture in the US using US labour. Of course that won't actually help much because it will just mean more products will still be more expensive because people in the US won't work for the sort of money that people in China/India/Mexico etc will work for, so the US companies will just have to charge more because their labour costs are higher, and the consumer will have to pay more.

Part of the issue is theft of IP  which China is pretty famous for or at least has been accused of doing.

Whether  you build in China India or Mexico vs USA the smaller customer gets stuck one way or the other.

But if you only build in 1 country you don't have any flexibility to negotiate with the factory/government location.

If Apple had factories in China ,India, Mexico and USA  vs Factories in China  it gives them more flexibility to tell any location fuck you I will lower production here and ramp it up in other country.

It also helps lower theft of IP  since if it happens while using the China location apple can say fuck you I will reduce production next year to punish you for theft of IP.

Sounds like FUD to me. I'll leave it at that, don't want to derail the thread too much ;D

Okay looks like some action

from Sara Cook on twitter

https://twitter.com/saraecook/status/1205513023500300288

from prez Trump

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1205509125788098560

not sure if this links will work but it apppears  to moving in a better direction.

Unsure what you mean if the "25% Tariff remains as is" which is probably most stuff that is not related ro Agriculture. :(

staying at 25% is better then adding 10% penalty on dec 15th.

and they actually claim to have a phase one agreement.

Yeah, forgot to mention it is good the other 10% was not added on to this. But Phase one is simply (mostly) agriculture, which in 20/20 hindsight probably neither China nor the USA would ever go down that road again, too much backlash. Better to just have the 25% on more or less everything to 'dilute' the backlash. Those 'pesky' farmers were noisy, on news and all, as a specific united group. I see under the classification now ASIC's are called 'electronic components' or some such. Which is too bad because there was some talk of exempting I think it was laptops for Christmas a while back? (Not sure if desktops).

Anyway, that would maybe be the next thing taken out of the tariff IMHO, but we are gonna, 'specific' consumer products by name, to lessen the pressure. miss that loophole I guess. I'm just 'wizing in the creek' here ..not like at these prices for ASIC equipment, even without the tariffs, at 10c kWh electric I could realistically spring for any equipment anyway. But, like an old 'retired' HOME ASIC miner (now defunct species) I like to follow my quaint historical past and/or see how others with better options are dealing with all this. :)

Does anyone have any news about the CBP complaint about the tariff with the reasoning "no (US) compatible product" went anywhere?
(I guess not as the tariff is still alive)

I wonder if trump will jack tarriff due to corona-v

or if he will suspend the tarriff due to corona-v

I looked on https://www.asicminervalue.com/miners/bitmain/antminer-s19-pro-110th

May 2020 due
   
110Th/s bitmain
   
3250W
   
75db
   
SHA-256
   
$2.84 /day as of this moment. Add the tariff and the fact that halving is what 6 weeks away? By the time you get this all things the same will be half of this? indeed at these prices after halving ...well I won't go there. The above is at 10c kWh, but even at 1/2 of that in power it still sucks big time even without tariff with halving. :(

but IMHO, the tariffs will stay, to get rid of the tariffs would mean Trump would have to admit they had 'hampered' trade and not helped the USA which is counter to all he has said the last year...anyway as I see this...politically folk are not paying attention to it so why bring it up?...he will let it lie IMHO.

brad

edit: wrong price above at 10c kWh corrected such.