Bitcoin Forum

Hey guys. I'm very active on Quora. There a great many people are predicting tgat cryptos will get bigger soon as Wall Street is working to get invested in cryptos. They all think that once banks bring their massive funds into crypto, that the price will go sky high.

I'm not so optimist. I think Wall Street getting into Bitcoin can only mean bad things. Mainly rehypotecation and paper bitcoin allowing countless people to invest in Bitcoin 'certificates' rather than owning actual Bitcoin.

How do you guys feel about that?
You think Wall Street money getting pumped into Bitcoin can be a good thing?

I for one only see bad stuff down that road. Bitcoin  is supposed to be the death of Wall Street, not it's instrument.

Your thoughts?

Here is what concerns me. I am a gold and silver bug. So I buy and keep as much gold and silver as I can afford (yeah Bitcoin too).
But I fully understand that the price of silver and gold is heavily controlled and kept down. While I only invest in physical bullion, most people don't bother to buy physical billions.  They just buy gold and silver certificates which their bank tells them represents an actual gold bar they will kindly store for you.

So you can actually go to your bank or broker and buy a gold certificate. It will have a serial number which they tell you is matching an actual gold bar somewhere in their vault.

What they are not telling you is that this same certificate can be issued to several other customers. So they effectively sell the same bar to many people. This scam can only work so long as not everyone decides to cash in their certificate and demand their physical gold. And in fact the vast majority of paper gold investors never bother to cash trade in their certificates for actual gold or silver.

The problem with this is that gold and silver are valuable because they are scarce. But when they issue several 'certificates' for the same bar, they are effectively creating the illusion that there are more bars in circulation than there actually is. And the more paper gold they issue, the more they create the illusion that there are more gold in circulation. And this has for effect to keep the price of gold down.

My fear is that if Wall Street actually gets around to invest in Bitcoin, they will not issue any actual Bitcoin to their customers anymore than they are issuing actual gold bars to their customers. They will just sell 'paper Bitcoin' or bitcoin certificates to their customers. 

Some people call this rehypotecation, some others call it fractional reserve banking. But I call it what it actually is - fraud and price control.

What are your fears that they might actually implement these things if Wall Street decides to sink their teeth into Bitcoin?

So we should use blockchain to control gold and silver market maybe not whole market but certificate part.
Using the blockchain will allow to control individual bars deposited in any treasury and prevent you from "selling" the certificates of the same bars to several people at the same time...

Yes, we should/could/would do just that.
But Wall Street is not likely to do that. They are likely to sell you something like a mutual fund. And they will claim for example that x% of it is in Bitcoin, and an other x% of it is in Litecoin, and so on....
Your mutual fund investor is not going to tell you to go buy coin to keep in your wallet because that would directly remove him as the middle man.

When others rejoice in Wall Street getting into cryptos, I don't rejoice, I cringe.

I think you fail to understand how much money is being made from rehypotecation and fractional reserve banking. Bankers are not going to give up that cash cow any time soon.

To be honest, investment money from Wall Street will have a significant impact especially on the fluctuations in crypto prices in the market and may tend to pump up crypto prices. But, it won't last long. I do not mind the investment made by Wall Street towards bitcoin because it means that the technology that exists in bitcoin has been recognized by many parties and is feasible to be used and formalized as an asset or currency.

Nope. That's not what it means. Wall Street has no desire to recognize Bitcoin as a currency or as a ham sandwich.  All that Wall Street cares about is to make money. If they figure out a way to make money from paper bitcoin, rehypotecation, fractional reserve banking, and futures market, that's exactly what they will do.
And there is only one result to such a scenario: price control. Just like they do with oil, gold, silver, and fiat.

Through Over The Counter trades, it is very possible that institutional money is already circulating around the Bitcoin community. And I do not think it's a positive prospect for regular investors. It would not increase circulation or the regular usage of bitcoin as a currency.

Yup, if there is a potential for gain, greedy Wall Street is never too far.
In fact I think the 2017 roller coaster ride of Bitcoin was engineered. And likely some Wall Street players reaped in large sums through pump and dump schemes.

I do worry a little about scalability and privacy. But mostly, I worry more about Wall Street and banksters getting involved.

If we are talking about something like futures contracts, then yeah, probably nothing good for bitcoin, as futures kind of ignore the natural flaw of events and the real prices. If we are talking about traders actually buying bitcoin on exchanges with the demand-offer driven price - well, it surely can help the market recover and the prices climb up, but I don't think even this is a good thing. I am concerned that the stock traders don't really give a shit about what they buy or sell. They are focused only on profits. So, these people will easily dump bitcoin once when they feel they can get most of it, which can trigger a bearish trend even worse than the one we already have.

It will be bigger soon definitely but it doesn't mean just because Wall Street is becoming involved with it, we have to celebrate. Crypto market had grown already and additional adoptions are a plus.

Same sentiment, we do feel the same thing on this. But we have to see that thing, there will be no motion if they won't get involved.

People have been saying that for many years. It's an unrealistic way of framing things. It's not like on a specific date, a faucet gets turned on and all of a sudden, there's Wall Street money flooding the market, BTC to $5 Billion per coin!

That's not how markets work and it's definitely not how Wall Street works. Institutional money has been trickling into the crypto markets for several years now. That's undeniable fact. This trickle will continue to grow over time, and not necessarily in the spot markets. Will new custody solutions or regulated markets help? Sure, but again, we're not going to the moon tomorrow because of it.


I agree. People underestimate the effect that leveraged paper trading and collateral rehypothecation can have on the spot market. The supply perceived by the market could be significantly diluted and the price obviously won't benefit from that.


The jury is out. I'm not sure how things will work out. There's lots of potential for manipulation that will hurt retail investors like us though. On the other hand, if Bitcoin continues growing as a recognized store-of-value asset, there are other forces at play. Precious metal bugs and other speculators, even central banks eventually may want some exposure as a hedge. And they won't necessarily be content holding paper bitcoins. That could also have a powerful effect on the market.

If wall street enters a coin, I think this is extraordinary, remember that on Wall Street there are many stock indicators that are a reference for the protection of the world market. This will greatly affect the region and develop stock exchanges and Crypto.
Of course Wall Stret takes this step by considering all its considerations.
This will have a tremendous impact on Crypto, and this is a special advantage for Bitcoin, This can help reduce the volatility of the price of digital currencies and will pave the way for digital currencies to be accepted as a payment tool for everyday transactions.

Okay.  Let me explain something here.
When you borrow 200,000$ from the bank to buy a home, they don't actually give you a briefcase with 200,000$ cash in it. In fact, they don't even have to have any money in their vaults to loan it to you. What they do is they write down that you owe them 200,000$. It's just an entry on their ledger.

And the guy you buy the house from, he doesn't get 200,000$ in a briefcase either. The bank just adds that amount on their ledger.

I'm not even joking here. This is actually written into law and it's called fractional reserve banking. A.k.a. the ability for the bank to loan out 200$ when they only have 10$ in their vault.

This is why your bank will give you a really hard time if you try to cash out a large enough sum of money. They'll say you could be a suspected terrorist or drug dealer. And they will try really hard to make you change your mind. In fact, here in Canada, it's actually illegal to walk around with that much cash in your wallet or in your car.

The bank won't have a problem with you if you try to deposit a million$ in cash. But if you try to withdraw just 10,000$ out of that million, you might be a terrorist.

Banks are actually terrified of the idea that everybody suddenly decide to withdraw their money in cash. Simply because they don't have it. And so they would have to tell you you can't withdraw your money. This is called a run on banks. When the banks are not capable of giving you the money you deposited in your account.

Now take this idea over to your investment broker. When you call him up and you tell him you want to invest some of your money in gold, he never actually sends you a gold bar for you to keep under your pillow. What he will do is give you paper gold. That is, he will give you a gold certificate with a serial number on it. And he will tell you that this is the serial number of your gold bar.

And he will tell you that your gold is stored safely in a vault somewhere. And every month he will charge you a small fee for your gold storage. Now the average Joe might think he owns a gold bar but he doesn't. Possession is nine tenth of the law. In other words, ,if you don't hold it in your hand, you don't own it. So the only thing that the average Joe owns is a piece of paper, an IOU for a gold bar, nothing else.

But what your broker doesn't tell you is that he is selling the same paper gold to 10 or 20 other people. So an other 20 other people are walking around thinking they own the same gold bar as you do. And most interestingly, they all pay monthly storage fees for that same gold bar.

Now, naturally the average Joe thinks that the more people invest in gold, the more the price will go up. But in fact, with paper golf, the more people invest in gold, the more worthless it becomes.

After all, gold is valuable because it's rare. Not everyone  is able to walk around with a gold bar in their coat. So that's why it's so expensive to own gold.

But if everyone is walking around with a gold certificate in their coat, than suddenly gold doesn't look like it's so rare and valuable anymore.

The more you buy gold certificates, the lower the price of gold will get.

Some people call this a form of fractional reserve banking. Others call it rehypotecation. And yes, it's legal too.

Do you see now why I don't think Wall Street and banks getting involved in Bitcoin is a good idea?

Your bank and your broker will never give you actual keys for your coin. They'll just give you a Bitcoin certificate.

Bitcoin is the revolution against greedy crooked bankers and brokers. It's not supposed to be one of their tools for profit and control.

On simple terms wall street or institutional investors i imagine may not
be interested in creating a wallet, buying their bitcoin and securing that
wallet for future liquidation or trading just like I imagine they are not
interested in buying, storing, securing, transporting and trading actual
gold bars.

So many people are only interested in institutional investors coming into
bitcoin investing in order to give themselves big returns, which may not
happen. A lot of people thought this when the "futures" trading started.

It's not only Wall Street.It's the CBOE and CME that want bitcoin derivatives.The whole Bakkt project is about bitcoin futures/derivatives.This is what the institutional investors want.I guess that they just want to store btc.
But if you buy such derivative,the entity that owns the real btc that backs that derivative might scam buy.
This is just another level of centralization.

As it has the potential to contribute big to the world, the large scale centralized networks try to be the early investors. In such a way not only Wall Street or CBOE, majority of the financial institutions were into the crypto. Already most of the financial institutions have invested big into crypto indirectly, as the direct involvement will ruin their business stature.

In a way, we already have this in the form of Bitcoin Futures, " Futures trading gives new investors the choice to bet against Bitcoin and also allows them to settle contracts in dollars, boosting their liquidity. Plus, Bitcoin futures allows investors to trade off the cryptocurrency without actually owning it. This protects them from any volatility in the real-time spot market." - Source : http://theconversation.com/how-bitcoin-futures-trading-could-burst-the-cryptocurrencys-bubble-88971

The latest submissions to the SEC are in the form of Bitcoin ETFs <It is backed by actual bitcoins, but the investors are not in possession of the actual coins <private key>, because they do not want to worry about the security or storage of those bitcoins.

This opens up institutional investment into Bitcoin, but it is similar to the "certificates" that you mentioned with Gold and Silver in your post.

Is this risky for the investor? Yes. <True Bitcoiners always have control over their private keys, because it is similar to having physical Gold or Silver in your possession.>  

and actually it good start for cryptocurrency market to recoverey its price.and one of richest  man in the world already be the seed investors in BAKKT , and i think it will attract more billionaire to invest their money into cryptocurrency.it just only about time like Binance's CEO said.dont forget to FIDELITY already in final test.

This explanation is actually pretty close to the reality. I mean why would wall street really be giving them real bitcoins if they already have such ways of luring people with digital certification. Its truly intriguing how they illustrate people about the owing of physical bullions. When it will come to the bitcoin then they will surely have some boded digital platforms via which they will be given bitcoins but not the real one, just the illusion of same as OP stated.

This will never ever create any real demand about the bitcoin. Because for demand to get hyped, actual bitcoin must be bought from the circulation. :-)

So yeah, it could be the case that Wall Street will never be able to hype this market at all.

If there comes any pseudo marketing due to the fact that Wall Street being entering into market, then there will be smaller portion of population which will go and buy bitcoin in the hope that they will see it hiking one day. But without that its just hope.

This, I think, would be happening at a larger scale in the near future. They know for a fact that not all people would love to get themselves in a hassle of storing and keeping their assets safe, so they'd go to a trustworthy bank and let the institution handle their money for them. What amazes me is that they are able to do this thing for decades, and have even invented fancy names for the fraud that they are doing. I'm not afraid of institutional investors coming in to crypto; what I'm afraid is if people are too gullible enough to let the banks rip them off of their money thinking they got a better deal on crypto.

Oh I love this guy. He saw through the banking scam, I mean banking institution and they are all right.
Yeah I get it, you are not joking about it because it is reality.

If this is just what they will do with the crypto technology then hell no. I would still want to see a bitcoin in my wallet rather than having just a certificates which proves I really own 1 while in reality 10 of us own that 1 using just a certificate. This is why I hate the banks.
So where is our money at?
They invest it for a greater profit. It is a good business, maybe I will also create one. ;D

Most people here don't care about crypto vs the banks.  They just want their bags to be pumped so they can dump for fiat money.  There aren't many hardcore libertarian left in bitcoin.

There's no doubt that the institutional act is to form a kind of centralization of crypto market and this is why I don't support the CBOE and CME when it was implemented. Besides, the CBOE and CME was one of the thing which I believed that lead to the bad corrections of the crypto market last year because some set of people seize the advantage of CBOE and CME to force control and manipulate the market.

Would the traders go to banks to buy certificates instead of going to crypto exchanges to buy BTC?

They can create however tons of those certificate but with the information surrounding the internet, they sure would see advise to get a wallet of their own. They'd be thinking wisely not to buy certificates than having a real nano wallet for themselves if they are to really hold coins.

Wall Street is such a strong institution that death of it is very hard to imagine. We will have to wait to see if this news is true or if it's just a speculation. Lots of people are hoping and are believing in blockchain as a revolution of currency system but, as I was writing about similar subject numerous of times, I don't think that it can pass by the greatest players just like that. They will find a solution to continue with the system that makes them the only side that consider about everything when money and payment system is involved...

Institutions are not always Wall Street
with Bakkt launch we will have merchants adoption
There are services what can join crypto thanks  to Bakkt
Not all institution what are on Fidelity are Wall Street
But for sure some Wall Street boys will like to join party and than we will have kind of manipulation big pump and yet another dump
I am only  afraid what than after EFT approval bitcoin  can be the same like gold market is now where price is fully controlled by big institution money

For the fact that "bitcoin will be death of wall street and not an instrument" we are already beyond that. Wall street already turned bitcoin into an instrument and people use it like a commodity and investment.

Bitcoin wasn't suppose to be an investment, it supposed to be money itself, however people use it like "put dollars into exchange, buy bitcoin, sell bitcoin, withdraw more dollars from exchange" and since they started using it that way and bitcoin became a topic of "how much dollar it is" instead of "what is the buying power of it" wall street already won.

Bitcoin will never hurt wall street from now on, there is no way, maybe master card and visa but not the investment companies, they will jump in on this and some of them already did and I am sure most of them hold some bitcoins just in case and that resulted with bitcoin losing that "wall street killer" ideology long ago.

this can actually cause a stir in the market, with the wall street decision to put money into bitcoin, they definitely want a "return" if the market is pumped up on the huge investment they make. and yes, maybe you are right if bad things will happen if in the end bitcoin will be owned in the form of a certificate where there is the name wall street and not bitcoin in full anymore. but the possibility of that happening is only 10%, I'm still very confident bitcoin will continue like this, and its value will definitely grow with or not wall street there.

Not yet! This market is not ready for it. Investors must be sure that their money are in safety place - Binance and other exchanges aren't such places...
There no laws and rules of regulation this market... It's early right now for Wall Street to join crypto world. Crypto futures is one step but to move further, the market should be prepared for it.

This is the reason that all these people want a Bitcoin ETF. It is not going to do any good in terms of technology or mass adoption. It will just make the bags of the big players bigger and they will just pump the price.
Decentralized vs centralized or crypto vs banks doesn't exist anymore.

I somewhat agree to your statement but not entirely! If wall street money is pumped into crypto market, we will gain one very important parameter for the sustainability of cryptos - legality! That will be an examplenary incident for the rest of the world and will serve as a case study for those pessimistic countries! It may increase the adoption rate of cryptos to a massive level we can't imagine now!

However, every good thing comes with its own risk and it will not be an exception. We will have to face increased number of speculation around crypto prices. As we will see huge money inflow during good times, we will also see even greater number of withdrawals during bad times. The crypto prices will be more unstable than ever. But this is something we are already facing so it won't make much difference for the existing traders, but newbies will have hard time to cope up with it.

In a nutshell, I don't see the adoption if wall street is a bad thing after all. Crypto us definitely a revolution but the beauty of this revolution lies with co-existance.

I have a unpopular opinion in my mind that wall street Wall Street money is already in the crypto market of course not officially but privately. Even though we don't have ETFs yet we cannot dismiss the possibility that some of their board members are already buying up and selling cryptos with large sums of capital privately this people are risk takers and most of them want to go big or go home. So in the conditions we are having now where whales dominate the market we can say that some of the whales are also from wall street, only making it official with ETFs won't change anything in the market.

At first it sounds very great to hear that an institution as large as Wall Street is bringing its investment into Bitcoin, but your analysis of the negative impact gets me worried. I would like to know how certain you are of this assumptions as it has not happened, neither did Wall Street came out to declare their modus operandi when it fully gets involved in Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. If you have a source, please name it. Thanks

Purely cash settled markets don't matter. They are isolated from the spot market because these are essentially "contract for difference" (CFD) markets. Buyers and sellers agree on a contract price, and the sellers pay buyers the difference between current value and settlement value. This is settled in cash, so there is no avenue for buying or selling of real bitcoins, so it doesn't affect real prices. If Wall Street were to manipulate cash settled markets downwards, there's no way for Bitcoin holders to sell coins elsewhere and wire the USD to CME to buy their coins back. Since arbitrage is impossible, these markets should always follow spot, never lead.

If we start seeing "paper bitcoins" (Citibank is currently working on one such instrument, and Bakkt is working on another), it's a different story. If the option exists to settle in Bitcoin, then these markets could potentially lead the spot markets, all while diluting the supply. That spells disaster for the price.

The following is worth reading twice and trice until everyone understands this.


Let's make no mistake about this. Wall Street, institutional investors, and banks can only wreck havoc on Bitcoin.  Nothing good can come out of any Bitcoin investment where you don't hold your keys.

Banks worked tirelessly to eliminate gold money and the gold standard over the last century. They are not going to allow Bitcoin any traction without putting up one hell of a fight.

Wall street didn't do it, people who uses it does.

Printing paper money is unlimited ever since so I think that's the way of being a Bitcoin, when the things in this world that is limited and in demand at the same time, the price appreciation will be inevitable.

Someone proposes Bitcoin to be deal with the wall street and that someone knew that he/she will make a profit out of it no matter how good or bad it is. We can't tell it as early as of now but good thought.

We need to have institutional investment in bitcoin if we are to see huge numbers like everyone dreams about, i am not sure how they can provide bonds and certificates with bitcoin without owning one, but when it comes to future trading it is true, you do not need to own bitcoin for those kind of trade, you really cannot issue bitcoin or any bonds without any collateral, if they issue bonds in the name of bitcoin they need to have real bitcoin as collateral. Regulation will be coming up in near future so that we will have some clarity regarding those.

of course these institutions need a role from the government to provide rules and policies, so that investors will feel comfortable. luckily in my country there has been a discourse for that, so if done by many countries it will have a good effect

The market really need funding to recover and if Wall Street will bring in money I think it will be a great developments. Institutional investors need to come into this market and if it is going to be through Wall Street then I think it is for the good of the market.  I know that big investors will like to get greater percentages of bitcoin so there can continue to control the demand and supply of bitcoin and if possible trying to centralized it but the reality is that bitcoin is greater than government,  company or individual to control and as such I welcome the development.

Would be a pretty bullish move then. Unfortunately the majority of these news are overhyped and not coming to real practice. They are there to keep people's spirits alive and make sure they survive the bear market because we are hopeful for the future. Hope is a good thing and something that is lacking in many people.

However lets get the ETF for bitcoin done at least before thinking about wall street. ;D SEC said that its going to happen but nothing clear yet as of when. If this happens before the ETF then the effect could be different. Institutional money from wall street may or may not be interested in bitcoin. I reckon there will be more FUD from nocoiners.

Bitcoin was created to solve the problems associated with fiat currency. I can not invest in bitcoin and be given a paper certificate. If this is done the aim of bitcoin has been defeated.

Cash-settled Bitcoin futures are essentially those bitcoin certificates

And they have been around since November 2017 if I'm not wrong on the dates. However, they didn't attract a lot of investors, so there is no reason to think that these certificates would necessarily do better. And keep in mind that they can't fool anyone into thinking they have real bitcoins while there are in fact none

The rumors are circulating non-stop that there is less gold in the COMEX vaults than the amount bought with physically-settled gold futures, and that may in fact be true. But this trick is set to fail with Bitcoin as it is easy for everyone to see on the blockchain how many bitcoins they actually have

Guys who have been involved in Bitcoin for a while don't think the price of Bitcoin is all that important. What we view as very important is that the number of Bitcoin users increase while the platform remains anonymous, decentralized, affordable, and unregulated.

The only people who are concerned with the price of Bitcoin are those who never even heard of Bitcoin before 2017. And they think it's some sort of get-rich-quick investment vehicle.

If you want your bank to offer Bitcoin mutual funds and if you want your government to regulate/legislate Bitcoin, you are completely missing the boat on what Bitcoin stands for.

For a very very oversimplified explanation of why banks/government/institutions into Bitcoin is a terrible idea, I suggest you read my 13# on this thread: found here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5108256.msg49685666#msg49685666

And if you want a much better explanation than mine, here is Andreas Antonopoulos (a.ka. Bitcoin Buddah) explaining it very eloquently:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LgI0liAee4s&t=262s


Any time you invest in Bitcoin and you don't have the keys in your wallet, you are not investing in Bitcoin at all.
Again, for a really oversimplified and dumbed down explanation, re-read my post 13# on this thread.


This is what you believe based on your unshakable faith in the establishment and banksters. In fact when it comes to gold, I can buy an unallocated certificate, or an allocated one. They are the exact same price, except the unallocated one doesn't even pretend to have a gold bar attached to it.

I don't buy neither, I buy physical gold. And you can't buy that from a bank or from a broker.


If it moves, government wants to tax it.
If it keeps moving, government wants to regulate it.
If it stops moving, government wants to subsidise it.

If you look around you today, you can't name a single thing or action that doesn't involve government legalizing it, legislating it, taxing it, standardizing it, permitting it, licencing it, subsidizing it, or restricting it.

And it greatly saddens me to watch statists beg for more government intervention into everything. It saddens me even more to see the Bitcoin community invaded by a bunch of government loving and Wall Street loving statists.

So you are a gold bug?

Okay then, but I don't think we can compare gold to Bitcoin for the purposes discussed here. When you buy an allegedly allocated gold certificate, you can't check whether this gold actually exists and allocated to you personally. But with Bitcoin it is different as no one will be buying Bitcoin certificates without being able to check whether their bitcoins actually exist (even if they don't have the keys)

This question had been discussed in great detail in the past, and the consensus was such these institutions will be interested in full transparency regarding their operation (as Bitcoin easily allows such transparency) lest they should fail to attract a lot of investments and investors. That's the power of the blockchain

Yeah, I'm starting to realise that. I was mining in early 2009. And after 10 years away, I decide to come back. And this is what the community has become? A bunch of greedy people more concerned with the price than anything else while completely misunderstanding what Bitcoin stands for.

In this thread I've come to realise that a great many people here would gladly get rid of their coin to get paper coin issued by their bank or broker.

This is not helping one single bit.

If you ask me, this is a very lopsided view

While you personally may be in for quite a long time and not going to spend or exchange even a single satoshi for fiat, no matter what the price might be (though I seriously doubt that), having Bitcoin's price tag over 3k helps a lot even if you are an early adopter (you know, life circumstances and all that). But this price simply wouldn't be possible without all these greedy people sticking around. Without them Bitcoin would likely remain mostly unknown to anyone out there (I mean common people), with its development stagnating heavily (provided Bitcoin would be developed at all). In short, cast no dirt into the well that gives you water

I'm not against greed and profit. Greed and profits are good things.
But it's blatantly obvious from reading this thread that most people don't understand what the philosophy of Bitcoin is. Some comments outright welcome legislation and regulation.
Don't these people understand that Bitcoin was set up to fight against government fiat? Don't they understand that banks, government, and Wall Street are the ennemy of Bitcoin?

How many of the people on this thread do you think would be jumping up and down if tomorrow their bank manager offered them a Bitcoin account or Bitcoin credit card?

Greed is good. If you are going to buy Bitcoin at low price and sell it at high price,this is actually good for Bitcoin as it helps stabilise the price and makes it more suitable as a stable store of value and currency.

I don't have a problem at all with profit. I'm not a communist. I just realise that most people on here only view Bitcoin as an investment vehicle and they would be willing to trade anonymity, and unadulterated free market for legislation and regulation if they are given the promis of more profit.

I don’t really see anything wrong with that. Bitcoin is not actually owned and controlled by anyone or group of people.

Although it can be manipulated, that’s why you are being told the price is based on the rate of demand and supply. Those who are rich will invest a huge to pump the price and when it happens they will quickly withdraw and price will start to fall again. So if they invest their money, the only thing that’s going to happen is that price will rise and that’s it.

Yup, that is precisely the whole point of Bitcoin.
And if I ever find a paper Bitcoin, I am hanging it on my wall of shame.
But given that a great many people within this community fon't seem to understand the fundamental value and idea of Bitcoin, if they welcome regulation and Wall Street, what are the chances that the normal Joe on the street will also welcome all that as well?

If Wall Street and banks get their teeth onto Bitcoin, we will see paper coin, coin certificates, and coin oriented mutual funds appear as well as a host of other forms of Bitcoin derivatives. All those would be very bad for Bitcoin.

As I stated earlier, I buy gold and silver. And so I know a few people who invest in gold and silver too. Sadly almost all of them don't even know what an once bar even looks like. They all have gold certificates and gold based investment vehicles. And they all seem to think it's the exact same thing as owning actual gold.

I have little doubt that these people would prefer to have coin derivatives instead of the actual keys.

Now you don't see the whole picture

There is no other way if we want Bitcoin to succeed in the end. All in all, your position comes down to challenging and defying governments ("Bitcoin was set up to fight against government fiat"). This is definitely not the way to go because it is just stupid and would pretty much be equal to fighting with windmills. There is another approach more subtle and thus more promising over the long term

We should let the governments regulate Bitcoin as they please and see fit as we can't stop them anyway. At the same time no one can stop you from using truly private currencies either if you are actually looking for a fight. And Bitcoin's greater popularity among wider public will also contribute to your cause as well

Look, I understand that you want your Bitcoin to go up in price so you can turn a profit. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Where you are wrong is thinking that regulations and Wall Street involvement is going to somehow make the Bitcoin price go up. You think it will bring Bitcoin into the mainstream.

The problem here is that government and banks are not interested in finding a better alternative to fiat which they control. They are not interested in surrendering their control of money, and the supply of money.

Government doesn't want you to have money they can't track, money they can't control and steal from you via taxation and inflation is not what they are after.

And all that Wall Street wants to do is offer you derivatives (a.k.a. paper Bitcoin) for you to invest in.

When they figured out a way to issue paper gold, they effectively diluted the price of actual gold. Because countless people prefer to hold paper gold over actual gold. They are bring told this paper gold is safer, more regulated, and just as valuable as actual physical gold.

Same thing with Bitcoin. If they can sell you a Bitcoin derivative of any sort, instead of selling you the actual keys, they are effectively diluting the price of Bitcoin.

All this is very difficult to explain if you actually believe legislators have your best interest at heart. And it's even harder to explain if you actually believe there is a piece of gold behind every gold certificate in circulation.

And it's simply false to assume we need legislators and Wall Street to get involved to promote Bitcoin. If this was the case, crack cocaine would be dirt cheap.

In fact I wish governments all around the world would outlaw Bitcoin.  At least it would prevent Wall Streel and banksters from openly offering derivatives which have nothing to do with actually holding coin.

The time for really big players is coming. More whales on cryptocurrency market will give better stabilization. At the beginning always happen strange things and manipulations. With time it all will work for better Bitcoin in the future.

The banks and government have been handling the USD for the last 100 years ever since it was gradually taken off the gold standard. And as a direct result the USD lost 98% of it's value throught inflation and the USA racked up a 22 trillion $ debt.
And you think these creeps will do go to Bitcoin?  Like they did so good with the USD?

Actually no, personally I'd prefer if Bitcoin stayed where it is now but with added volatility (say, within the 1k range)


If you are right, then it should bring more volatility. If you are wrong (and I'm right), then it should bring higher prices, as simple as it gets


What government do you refer to here? Anyway, there is no agreement between powers, so any government in particular doesn't mean a shit on its own


It won't work with Bitcoin because you can't sell paper bitcoins without providing a means to validate them, i.e. whether they are actually backed up by real ones. This is the difference between gold and Bitcoin. They have already tried to pull off this trick by creating cash-settled Bitcoin derivatives (i.e. futures) and they fell flat on their face. Their effort mostly failed as no one got interested in this shit. That likely explains why there is no Wall Street with Bitcoin (and may never be)

As you can't fool the blockchain

When you buy a mutual fund, you don't get any voting rights within that fund when it's investing in stocks of a given company. In fact the fund manager doesn't get any voting rights either.
And if that mutual fund has investments in gold, you don't get to touch a gold bar, and neither does the fund manager.
So what on earth makes you think if there is a crypto mutual fund, that you will get the keys?

If you think your broker of fund manager are going to buy Bitcoin for you and hold the keys for you, you are sadly mistaken on how things really work on Wall Street.

If you think your bank is going to allow you to deposit and spend Bitcoin, and loan you Bitcoin to buy anything by giving you the actual keys to your loaned coin, you are sadly mistaken on how things really work in the banking world.

If you buy a gold derivative, you are not actually buying gold.
If you buy a Bitcoin derivative, you are not buying an actual Bitcoin.
When your fund manager or broker tells you your portfolio has a given % of cryptos, they will not send you the keys for you to hold.
When you tell your broker to invest in gold, he doesn't tell you to go to the gold dealer and buy a bar of gold. Ask yourself why.
And so when you will tell your broker to invest in Bitcoin, he will never ever tell you to go to Coinbase and load up on Bitcoin keys.

Wall Street will not plug in an Antminer or buy a Tresor for the benefit of their clients. The faster you can understand this, the better off you will be.

Just take the gold market as an example. The market for gold derivatives is 20x bigger than the actual gold supply. And you can increase the gold derivative market to double of what it is now, it will have only negative effects on the actual gold price.

But keep telling yourself that what doesn't work for gold will work for cryptos. Good luck with than.

In fact, nothing makes me think so

If you were reading my posts here carefully, I never mentioned the transfer of keys to the owners of bitcoins (Bitcoin certificates, more specifically). I meant that the funds should be interested in convincing people that they actually own the bitcoins they claim they have. If they do, then they wouldn't be able to create more paper bitcoins then there are real ones. On the other hand, if they fail to do that, investors will stay away from such funds

Look dude, I really don't feel like explaining to you how derivatives and paper gold/coin work and how corrupt and destructive the banking system and Wall Street really are.

It would take a few books to explain it to you because it would take way too long. You can start by watching a really good movie with Steve Cartel and Brad Pit called 'The Big Short'. And if you are more of a book worm, as I am, you can read 'The Creature From Jekyll Island'.

In the end most people who invest in gold are only too happy to buy derivatives and paper gold instead of the actual bullion. And most people don't even bother to find out if it's really backed by gold or not as they don't even care. When people tell me they invest in gold, I pull out an once bar. And pretty much all if them are amazed and confess they never saw a gold bar before.

I can assure you that Wall Street getting into Bitcoin will have the same result.

Of course some people who hold a paper Bitcoin might demand to have the actual coin. But the vast majority of investors never do that.

I don't care about how corrupt and destructive Wall Street is

It is enough for me to know that they can't corrupt Bitcoin, and that (as I explained above) is likely one of the reasons (if not the sole reason) why they have been staying away from it for so long. In this way, you may continue to make noise (like "it would take a few books to explain it to you"), but it still won't make Bitcoin more corruptible or destructible. Bitcoin is not gold (in this regard), and all your actions with it are public and can be pretty much considered set in stone (e.g. who paid whom and how much)

let's be realistic,  liberation and financial freedom comes from owning way above average of whatever that majority of people accept as a method of payment one-way or the other. if you are a poor kid and you are not working on it, bitcoin won't help you.

if tomorrow we wake up and every bank out there closes their doors, and the whole world elect bitcoin to be the one and only measurement of wealth, are we all going to be liberated? indeed not, those with more bitcoin stacking will be liberated and happy while the rest will be just as miserable they are now.

financial freedom is always about the "quantity" , how you scale/measure it does not matter, bitcoin,gold,cash,sheep,cows, lands or anything for that matter.

bitcoin's major and probably only strength over traditional system  is "anonymity", and you will never be liberated with 0.1 btc hiding in your wallet.

It all depends on how you look at financial freedom, because it's very much subjective, but I think that you're describing it in the most effective way for most of the people living in well developed countries.

In third world countries people are satisfied with financial freedom in form of a fair and open economy, and where their payments can't be censored by oppressive regimes that don't want you to transact with whoever they don't like.

If you can blend in both, regardless of where you are in the world, it's much closer to a pure form of financial freedom. I think that's the main priority for a lot of people here. Some will get there eventually, most won't....

Bitcoin is the solution to a problem.
And the big hurdle here is that if you don't recognize there is a problem, explaining it's solution to you would be in vain.

All of the G20 countries operate under a crushing debt that can never be repaid. How can it be that all of the 20 richest countries in the world are in debt?

To put it very simply, here in Canada, the government installed the central bank in the 1930's. And roughly around the same time, they started the income tax.

They told us that the income tax was going to be temporary and it was only to help pay for the war.
But that was a twofold lie. The income tax was never going to.be temporary, and it was never meant to pay for the war. In reality the income tax is a direct consequence of the central bank issuing worthless fiat paper backed by debt.

In fact not only the income tax was a result of the central bank, but the continuously increasing national debt is also directly caused by the central bank and it's fiat paper.

Most people believe their income taxes go to pay for the infrastructure and social services. That is an absolute myth. The income tax goes to service the national debt, which is created by the worthless fiat paper. Without the central bank and with an honest monetary policy, their would be no need for income taxes.

And this exact same story is repeated in the USA. In fact pretty much every country that instigated a central bank had to start the income tax and saw a rising national debt.

The central banking system and debt back fiat paper are the greatest scheme pulled upon the people on this planet.

Satoshi Nakamoto and tge early adopters of Bitcoin all understand the above. This is why any form of regulation and Wall Street involvement must be rejected and understood as destructive.

Today the average Canadian pays more than half of his income in taxes to various governments. In the USA it's around 40 cents on every dollar you earn. In Norway and Sweden it's a ridiculous 70-80% of their income going to taxes.

Still everyone around me professes they have economic freedom and they live in a free country. That's entirely false. You are a debt slave. And Bitcoin can be the key to your shakles. If we don't screw it up and demand government regulations and Wall Street money.

That looks to me as an inverted tautology

It is like saying that if you don't earn money (or generate income in some other way), you are going to remain poor. Or you are poor because you don't earn enough income. Indeed Bitcoin is not going to help you here as you are not earning enough of it. But in this case it is not different form any other means or venue for generating profits (fiat or otherwise)

Essentially, it is a truism, something like "buy low and sell high". Other than that, I agree with your point, for example, about financial freedom always being about the quantity ("size does matter after all")

Master card recently propose patent for fractional reserve on bitcoin. This will makes master card creating their own bitcoin paper and as for i know this is not real bitcoin like in market. Maybe i am wrong but its the face how corrupt wall street is.

You are definitely right, this is an eye opener to everyone but due to the power of the government, all we can do is to follow what has already been made in the past. We are still slaves working hard having an underpaid rates. We have been blind by the rules which we are assuming of their lies. This is why, they want to control the BTC to prevent our freedom of owning it in reality.

Bitcoin certificates? How could that be possible since even without institutions we can own our own bitcoin. With wallstreet money getting into crypto memans a lot to the progress of it. Not that bank will bring funds to crypto but they might adopt to make transactions using it.

I have no doubt that if you ever wanted to buy gold, you would buy the actual gold, and not a certificate. But the vast majority of people choose to buy worthless paper gold than actual gold. I even have a friend who lives not 5 blocks from a gold dealer, yet he prefers to buy gold derivatives and paper gold.

So people are already doing it with gold. What makes you think they won't do it with Bitcoin?



If by progress you mean certificates and other derivatives, than you are correct 100%.


Think about this for a minute. We need the banks to buy just about anything. From paying your bills to buying on Amazon. And they get paid very handsomely to move that fiat paper around for us. Why on earth do you think they would move to something that takes the banks out of business?

That's as meaningless as a horse buggy maker thinking he can put pneumatic tires on his buggy to compete with cars.

Rest assured if a horse buggy maker gets to invest in cars, there is nothing good to come out of this.

You need to understand that the exact same thing can be said about gold. You don't need Wallstreet or your bank to buy real gold. Yet people line up to buy fake paper gold.
That is what banks and Wall Street will do to Bitcoin.
Your bank will not move to Bitcoin so that you can send and receive money without paying the bank. Why would they do that?
When you call your broker to invest 1000$ in Bitcoin, ge's not going to tell you to download a wallet and buy coin on Coinbase. Why would hr do that?

When you stop and think for a minute, Wall Street and banks are not good news to Bitcoin.

It doesn't mean a shit

There are literally thousands of totally useless and pointless patents. You can patent something too because you can (but beware of prior art). Kidding aside, if MasterCard patents fractional reserve on bitcoin, it doesn't in the least mean that anyone will be using these paper bitcoins, and definitely not because of the royalties (just like with other such stupid inventions). All in all, it is an exercise in stupidity and futility

Governments are always powerful and they will do everything in their power to control each and every citizen and nothing can be done about it, if you are living in a country where you could vote for the next rules, make sure you choose the perfect person rather than skipping the entire electoral process.
Bitcoin will give you the freedom to trade beyond boundaries and right now it is seen as a store of value and eventually it will change. If there is regulations and clarity on each governments take on the current market, you might see institutional investments and it will boost the market without a doubt but not sure how it will be in the long run.

I find your attitude to be rather defeatist. And I don't agree.


If voting could change anything at all, it would be illegal. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Freedom is a well armed sheep demanding a vote recount.

Government is involved in every aspect of your life. You can't point to a single thing they don't tax, regulate, standardize, license, permit, or subsidize. And you yourself wrote that governments are too powerful and there is nothing you can do about it. Well, for starters you could stop demanding more government involvement in every aspect of your life, and everyone else's. That would be a pretty good start, don't you think?

I don't think Mastercard is in the business of creating useless and pointless patents.


You overestimate public stupidity. As I pointed out earlier, I invest in physical gold and silver (that's bullion I can hold in my hand). Yet I would say that the vast majority of people who invest in gold and silver know very well what woryhless paper gold looks like. Yet when I show them a gold 1 oz bar, they tell me they never saw that before.

In fact most people would prefer paper gold over actual real gold. So why do you assume nobody would want paper coin over real Bitcoin is behond me.


Owning paper gold and worthless gold derivatives is also an exercise in stupidity and futility. But that doesn't stop people from buying it like hot cakes. What makes you think they will scuff at paper coin and coin derivatives?

What evidence do you have for that?

Because it doesn't happen in other markets. Anyone can look up what's in the COMEX gold vaults and see outstanding contracts aren't fully deliverable. But nobody cares and everyone keeps trading. Very few traders care about the underlying trustability of markets or custodians, they just want to make profits. Why would that change with Bitcoin? Because "blockchain?" LOL. Most Bitcoin investors don't even know how to use a block explorer, and this will only get worse over time as more mainstream investors enter the market.

It is pretty simple really. If these funds claim that the Bitcoin certificates they are going to issue are fully covered by Bitcoin reserves, you would expect them to actually provide a means of checking that (given that all relevant information about ownership is freely available on the blockchain anyway). If they don't do that, it will raise a lot of eyebrows and accusations of deliberate lies as well as misinformation (probably followed by lawsuits). On the other hand, just one fund actually proving they are what they claim to be will suffice as the rest will have to either do the same or go out of the business

So yes, because "blockchain"


I really doubt that. I guess the next thing you are going to say is that the mainstream investors are illiterate

Wall street investing they found in bitcoin will have the capacity to pump the price of bitcoin in the market but the fact is it can only have positive effect on bitcoin since bitcoin operate on the law of demands and supply but the wall street will not have the ability to control bitcoin because bitcoin is a decentralized institution.

I disagree with your point of view. It's not really as serious as you think. The crypto market is also a financial market. When our market has many new whales invading, it will have a lot of interesting things.
The whales will dispute the right to manipulate, pushing the price of coins high to gain possession. We will be profitable as more and more big investors join the crypto market. ;D

The benefit wallstreet brings to bitcoin is not just financial, it is about marketing. Even if they don't directly pump the price it will hit the media and add more confidence for regular people to invest in it and start mainstream adoption

You don't realise that the majority of people who invest in things like stocks and other investment vehicles don't really care if the paper they buy is backed by actual assets or not.

Those people who are buying gold certificates today are content with the the claim that it's backed by gold without any means of verifying it. They are equally happy to buy unallocated gold certificates, which don't even try to claim they are backed by actual gold.

So if the vast majority of people are fully happy with worthless paper gold, what makes you think they won't be happy with worthless paper Bitcoin?


I strongly disagree. They are already openly doing just that with gold and only very very few people give a rat's ass about it.

If wall street bring bitcoin, its a great marketing for cryptocurrency. People and investor must be interesting and studying about bitcoin and invest on cryptocurrency market. People will thinking bitcoin is regulated investment and with limited supply, bitcoin price will increasing

especially with the increasing number of bitcoin users, and what needs to be remembered is that at the moment the bitcoiner is still minimal, of course we can imagine if many countries legalize it.

It doesn't matter what the majority of people do or not do, whether they care or not. A couple of lawsuits and a dozen of angry dudes (like Bitfinexd one) will do just wonders in this regard in this epoch. The rest will be history. Other than that, people who invest in stocks are buying stocks and they are what they are, even if these are trash stocks only. Obviously, you are confusing stocks with derivatives here, investors with speculators

While the former do care if they buy real value or paper shit


Bitcoin is not gold (and I won't get tired repeating it)

Big institutional money has been going to enter this market for a long time, but still can not be solved, there are too big risks and revenues, and maybe they are afraid of uncertainty...
Anyway, I don't see the good news that with the arrival of wall street, the price will go up. This price may just as well go down, as it is more likely that large amounts of money may play down to buy bitcoin at a better price first.
Warren Buffett and other influential people on wall street do not make a finger and know where to invest, so it's better to drop the price and then start buying.
As Buffett said, buy shares of companies when the companies are very bad..

Your late, wall street guys have already been in crypto for a long time.  Winklevoss twins have connections in all those circles and they have been in bitcoin for years now and are working on their additional crypto businesses.  The money needed to enter the market is the average joes who don't even know how to use bitcoin.

No. This is the exact type of "their" thinking.
We need those people to enter but only with knowledge. What good is there from speculators and opportunists?
Plummets and volatility, nothing more. We need stable adoption by those who care for their own and their kids freedom.

Agreed on all the rest you have written, "they" are already in, most likely playing dirty by now.

The Wall Street guys are in cryptocurrencies market and I strongly believe that some of them Own some projects.  Institutionalized investors like bank are waiting for some set up in cryptocurrencies market for them to started coming into the market.

Any proofs? Wall Street is there for a concrete reasons which big percent of it depend on factors like power,money. Institutional money is smart money which never flows to financial assets that don't have any potential like return on the investment more than 50%. Speculation is root of all evil and crypto markets are strongly manipulated by big guys. Inside information is biggest advantage of them and we all know the power information in 21 century especially for financial markets.

The question is not about their money

Even if these guys have been in Bitcoin since its inception (which may well be the case). For this they don't need ETF's, SEC approvals and whatnot. The question is about managing someone else's money (preferably big money). Basically, ETF's and similar institutions (for example, pension funds) are investing the money of their clients. And their clients are these average Joe's who may not even have heard about crypto (let alone been using it)

First, let us all agree that we are all on the same side here - on the Bitcoin side.

Secondly, when I talk about paper coin, I refer to coin derivatives and investments vehicles such as futures market, certificates, and others.


It does matter a great deal what the majority of people do. When some people invest in paper coin, they are essencially dilluting the price of coin. And I am going to provide a very simplistic example here.

Let's say I am a broker and I offer Bitcoin certificates. You buy my worthless certificate. You even see that I have more than just your coin, I have 20 coins on there.  And I even offer you to look on the blockchain to verify I do in fact have a coin to back that certificate. Than I sell an other 200 certificates to an other 200 guys on the forum. And I show each and everyone of them that I do have the coin on the blockchain to back that paper. But I only have 20 coins on the block chain to back the 200 certificates.

That sounds absurd and ridiculous. But that's exactly what they are doing with gold right now through variations of rehypotecation and fractional reserve banking. And it's all legal, albeit completely immoral.

The big problem with this is that my little scheme is creating the illusion that there are more coins in circulation than there really are. And the more paper coin I sell, the more negatively the bitcoin price is affected.

There are two ways this scam can ever end. Either everyone smartens up, or everyone decide to cash in their certificates. And neither ever happens in this day and age. And if it does happen, government will just bail me out. Cuz, ya know, I'm too big to fail, trickle down economics, and all that nonsense.

I understand that you think regulation and Wall Street money would bring awareness towards bitcoin, legitimize it, and act as publicity for Bitcoin.

But it won't. All it will do is legitimize paper coin. And that will have the same effect as what paper gold does to actual gold: divert potential gold investors towards paper gold.

For every guy buying an actual coin, there would likely be an other 20 guys buying paper coin.

Without Wall Street, everyone who invests ends up investing directly in Bitcoin. But Wall Street just steals some of that investment money via paper coin.

This is exactly how the gold market works right now. The price of gold is actually strictly engineered and controlled. Wall Street would do the same thing with Bitcoin.


I'm not aware of what event you are talking about here. So I can't speak to that.


It doesn't matter if some people care about having the keys when investing. All tgat matters is tgat some investors will be lured away from Bitcoin and into paper coin.

This is what Wall Street does best - offer fake investments, a.ka. derivatives. And that's how they collapsed the entire housing market in 2008 while reaping insane profits. But based on your logic, the 2008 housing bubble didn't happen because most people who invest in a home can see they hace an actual home to invest in.


Thanx for the tip.

I'm not talking about gold. I'm talking about what Wall Street did to gold. And what they will do to Bitcoin.

I know the difference between a puppy and a kitten. But if your next door neighbor is strangling kittens for fun, it might not be a good idea to let him play with your dog.

The point here is this. Imagine that ten people are getting ready to invest in Bitcoin right now. All they can do is buy and sell bitcoin, or mine, or whatever they wish to do to aquire actual Bitcoin. Doesn't matter if 5 out of these ten people are retards willing to buy anything with a B on it instead of actual Bitcoin. All they can do is buy Bitcoin, period.

But once Wall Street is regulated and offering paper coin, some of these ten guys will be fooled by it. And even if only two of them are dumb enough to buy paper coin, that's still two investors taken away from Bitcoin, and two investors creating the illusion of an increased supply of Bitcoin.