Bitcoin Forum

If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that money cannot appear by just adding numerical entries  into a database(DB), then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmically added numerical entry (50 initially) into a DB called blockchain, is NOT the creation of money. In other words, adding entries into the DB (blockchain) is just a database management process that belongs to the field of informatics and NOT money creation process that belongs to the field of economy.

Throughout all human history money has always been - either commodity or certificate that grants specific rights. Current (FIAT) money, like dollars, are such certificates. Namely, dollars are put into circulation when banks grant loans to borrowers - who then use these dollars to purchase goods and services from individuals - who then become dollar holders. But, since borrowers are obligated to make their loan payments they needed dollars back. How will they get them? Well, they obviously must produce some goods or services so that dollar holders can buy them and in that way fund salaries or revenue of borrowers.  With salaries and revenue borrowers will get dollars for their loan payments while dollar holders will get goods and services. If borrowers fail to provide goods and services, and thus default on their loan payments, the banks will activate collaterals and instead of goods and services, sell borrowers land, cars, houses... to dollar holders. Thus, in a nutshell, FIAT money, either paper or digital, is debt certificate that grants its holder the RIGHT to goods, services or collateral of borrowers.

As we can see, MONEY is either commodity or certificate that grants specific rights. Even casino chips are form of money as they grant specific rights, i.e. - casinos are legally obligated to cash chips they issued. On the other hand, when numbers are added next to someone's virtual address in a DB called blockchain, NOBODY is legally obligated to cash these numbers or to exchange them for goods or services, which means that no right is granted by bitcoin. Also, bitcoin is not a commodity. That's why bitcoin is NOT money. Bitcoin is just a fancy name for a DB entry.

But what people did is something strange and bizarre. Namely, they took (stole) the definition of "payment" from the field of economy, and copy/pasted that definition over the text that defines informatic concept of adding entries into a DB. In that way the illusion was created that by adding numerical values into the blockchain one is actually paying. But in reality, no payment is occurring as neither goods/services nor granted rights (certificates) are transferred from one person to another. In other words, the economic definition of "payment" is this: a transfer of goods(commodity), services or rights from one person to another, while in the case of bitcoin, NOTHING is transferred, but only numerical entries are added into the DB.

So, the whole bitcoin system is just a database management system, while bitcoin is just a DB enty. And calling a DB management system a payment system, and a DB entry a money is nothing but a language manipulation. That is why bitcoin is a scam that thrives on language manipulation. In this scam, a numerical mark is added into the DB when uneducated, naive, or greedy individuals give their valuable possessions to unknown persons for free.

This is not accurate, If there is a consensus between a group of people that X is worth Y - then that thing is viewed as valuable. Usually due to some sort of utility or feature that it possesses.

Here you see the birth of programmable money, not issued by a state but rather founded in cryptography, accountability is achieved via a transparently distributed ledger.

You are arguing from an angle based on what looks like clear bias, there are several accounts in history where people agreed upon something having X value and traded it as such, this is what happened here. People see the utility this thing has and agreed that the market value is X.

It is just social economics and math + some good utility at play.

This is retarded.

Bitcoin can do everything what FIAT money does, except the inflation which is a feature.

the FED can create infinite amounts of Dollars but there will be only 21 million bitcoins. No central bank has the power to create more coins.

Well, the point is that payment is transfer of SOMETHING. Throughout all human history money has always been the ownership of either commodity, gold certificates or certificates of borrowers' debt(fiat money). And all these items are not nothing but something. Thus, Bitcoin is not money - money cannot be created by changing entry in a database.

Bitcoin is just a fancy name for changed entry in a database. Fiat money is the name for issued loans. Inflation is an economic term that refers to an environment of generally rising prices of goods and services. So, Bitcoin has NOTHING to do with FIAT money or inflation.

Bitcoin is cryptographic alternative of fiat and current payment systems, to make everything clear I mean that Bitcoin/Monero is mostly used as a payment method which is fast, cheap and anonymous compared to others.
Just tell me, when you pay with debit card, what happens here? It's just a transfer of numbers from one place to another, absolutely same happens on bitcoin too and it's not language manipulation.
Also fiat money isn't created when bank grants a loan, money is just moving and if someone is rich it's because you are poor and it will be like this always.

Fiat is loan, and loan is not nothing.

Hmm
How do you find the notes in the first place? Isn't it you just print when you want? Have you backed it by anything?

It's like if I have political shelter and have a print machine which is able to print money and the papers and the holograms and the designs then I can print as many notes as I want. You call it currency system?

This is by definition what fractional reserve banking is doing, changing entries in a database and creating 10 times the money they actually have on hand.

There is little point in continuing this discussion when all you desire to do is fight your angered point of view, rather than look at it objectively.

A private key is a mathematical proof of ownership for whatever bitcoins are associated with that key. That mathematical proof is the only way to interact with those coins, nothing else can interact with it, no government, company or person can do it without those private keys. Cryptography makes it impossible.

Mathematics, are tangible parts of our universe. Numbers and notations might be abstract, since we gave them value and order, but mathematics are natural, and exist within the realm of the tangible universe.

So bitcoin is a currency based of tangible principles.
Fiat is abstract, since there is no protocol behind it. Your loans do not follow any mathematical immutable rule.

Fiat is a scam.

Wrong again. What fractional reserve banking is doing is issuing, securing and repaying loans, while entries in a database are just means to evidence that process.

Fractional reserve banking is a banking system in which banks only hold a fraction of the money their customers deposit as reserves. This allows them to use the rest of it to make loans and thereby essentially create new money. This gives commercial banks the power to directly affect money supply. When the rest of the money they 'create' is done, how do you think this is done. Not by adjusting a centralized database?

Don't cite something incorrectly then state wrong again. This conversation is pretty tedious

So, how that changes the OP?

So no new or original thoughts, then?  Just another dull rehash of your last couple of topics with no fresh insights.  Have you ever stopped to consider that not all of us place any value in your legally enforced debt obligations?  If you value them, great.  Stick to that and leave us in peace.  We happen to believe our system is better off without those.  

If I wanted to be slaved to a corporate enitity for taking out a loan which they magicked into existence from nothing, I would do that.  But since I currently live debt free, there's no value for me in the traditional banking system.  There is only cost, inconvenience, surveillance and restrictions.  A bunch of worthless middlemen profiteering off my economic activity while offering me very little in return.  You can keep that crap.

Yeah, despair is the only thing you got right in this whole post.
And the PoD (proof of despair) is when you create topics like those:



Of course, there will be no original posts or arguments or whatever, the whole anti-bitcoin debate is based in his case is based on only one thing, how they are created.
Honestly, I thought this bear market that will probably reach 1.5 years would bring in some better trolls but damn, not just the price and news are lame lately, even the bears look like they had a rough winter.

Well, you can call fiat money(loans) crap if you like, but this won't change the fact that Bitcoin system is not a payment system but a database management system and that it has nothing to do with money and economy.

This is technology and not a scam, if in the case of a transfer the sent is a value, and if you consider bitcoin to be just manipulation, then you will never be able to exchange bitcoin with fiat that you can use to meet your needs.

Hmm.

Bit wired question. let me clear things one by one.

First of Bitcoin, which is made up of a combination with two great quantum physics technologies which are blockchain and cryptography. Independently both have "ZERO" value. But the experiment held with both these technologies invented an amazing, revolutionary decentralized platform within the peer-to-peer network.

Now according to the specification of Bitcoin, Bitcoin has a specific amount to be generated according to a timely manner. And for making this happen it uses SHA256 algorithm to encrypt data within the block, while processing transaction verification and data storing require a certain amount of power which can be generated by using electricity and other types of equipment.

Now day by day this power is increasing and affecting the production of Bitcoin, which ultimately impact on the price of BTC against fiat. Halving is also the most important factor can also impact on price according to demand and supply.

Considering all parameters and technologies, Bitcoin is far more than Fiat. Basically, Bitcoin can be considered as a commodity, as it's limited.

Till the day we, human are still testing possibilities. But Bitcoin has proved its existence already. And Proof of Existence is a great proof for the upcoming future, just matter is acceptance.

Except that it clearly is an economy.  It's our economy and we couldn't care less if it doesn't meet your "standards" to qualify as an economy.  You are of no consequence to us.

Calling a database management system a payment system and a database entry a money is a scam by definition.

You're clearly a troll who does not wish to engage in actual conversation, or have an agenda. Go waste someone else's time.

This is retarded. Gosh - I was about to say that but you beat me too it  :P

"Fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan" - What? So your saying that banks can 'Make Something from Nothing"? and call it valuable? Just grant as many loans as possible then right? Still making tons of free money?

I really thought you made it clear that something cannot come from nothing?

Fiat money is made from a printing press, and since the gold standard is out the window, the value is traditionally based upon the economy and the amount of 'bills' in circulation... But that is still something people need to agree on, which is why currencies are also very unstable.

I'm guessing your methods of "Money Creation" was what Venezuela was following.

And where does the value for the LOAN come from? Cmon dude, do some critical thinking, maybe fill up your basic economics gaps. There's nothing that FIAT has going for it, and bitcoin doesn't - except for a number of ways to take power away from the working people and putting it in the hands of central planners.

It is not economy because economy assumes the exchange of SOMETHING while in the case of Bitcoin NOTHING is exchanged but only database entries are altered.

you say FIAT is real because its something.. you say its something because a bank grants a loan to exist.
then by saying such, your also saying bitcoin is real because its something. the blockchain and people validating it say its something because they grant the block reward to exist

EG
a orphaned block/rejected block is not something. the community reject such blocks. and so orphaned blocks are not something.
the same as rejected loan agreements is not something

you yourself then countered yourself by saying fiat is not something by initially saying
bank loans are exactly the same. changing entries in a database. thas all a bank loan is....
granting a bank loan is based on meeting a rule threshold for acceptance

so if you think bank fiatloans are something. then bitcoin rewards are something too. as those that grant/accept a block, agree it is acceptable and meets the accepted threshold to allowed to be created


the payment is not simply changing a entry. its having the entry which can only be changed by a certain entity giving permission for another entity to have it. this is about ownership, permission, and change of controller/ownership/permission

..
now you understand that FIAT and bitcoin in respect of data is the same. what you have to realise is the VALUE of that data is decided by those that have control/permission to change the data from one entity to another.

take for instance, bitcoin. people know the bottomline value of bitcoin (the lowest value they would dare swap the control/permission of the entry) is based on the creation/acquisition cost of that. so if it costs $43k of electric and ASIC hardware to create a block with a reward entry of 12.5. then those with permission to change who gets to has control/permission of the 12.5 entry wont swap such permission below cost.
the receiver wont accept the 12.5 entry for $43k if they did not think it was worth that much effort/cost

this is where the markets develop. where people start to display their thinking of what the value should be for the entries they want to send and receive.
and this is where bitcoin has more benefits than FIAT.
because there is an underlying cost for its creation/acquisition (asic mining)

yes there is speculation. which is where ABOVE the underlying value(bottomline cost) that people speculate that future or utility  premium to add on to the value. but the underlying cost/value still has relevance.
people get to a point where they would see that bitcoin wont just disappear instantly. thus there is no point selling right down to zero as they can see it will still function the next day. so people instead set a bottom limit to how low they will refuse to sell below. which is mainly their acquisition/creation cost(buying/mining cost)

FIAT has a more flimsier less set in stone underlying value. U.S government for instance try to form a underlying value of things such as $7.50 is the minimum value for an hour of sweat labour (minimum wage laws)

What if it is a database?

If you think that way, then Central Bank printed money are just papers.

It is the people who make these things valuable.

Let me think further like you...

Gold is a damn stone which shouldn't have any value... but it does. Guess why? Because we people give it.

Bitcoin does something and what it does is being found valuable by the community.

As simple as it gets...

When a bank grants a loan, the loan contract is shown both, as an increase in bank’s assets because the bank now has an additional claim on borrowers, and as a positive entry on the liability side of the bank’s balance sheet, because fiat money owners now have an additional claim on the bank. Given the fact that a claim is property in the fullest sense of that term, that it has its own value, and it may be sold, transferred, mortgaged, and inherited, it follows that dollars, euros or pounds are actual things with intrinsic value.

What that means in practice is that borrowers have two options: either they will sell their services and valuable things to fiat money owners directly on the marketplace to get money for their loan payments, or the bank will take possession of their land, cars, homes and will sell their valuable things to the owners of fiat money indirectly, via foreclosure. So one way or another, legal enforceability of fiat money, i.e. its claim status, ensures that its owners will come back into the possession of valuable things similar to those they handed out to borrowers or other people in the money circulation chain.

And that’s the beauty of fiat money. Since it comes from debt, and debt is a legally enforceable liability that must be settled, the demand for dollars, euros or pounds will exist as long as this type of money exists. In other words, even if people completely abandon fiat money as means of exchange, the borrowers are still forced to use it until all their debt is paid off, since non-acceptance of fiat money won’t make borrowers’ obligations go away. That means that ultimately, fiat money will provide its owners with actual things in the form of goods, services or property of borrowers, just like the gold certificates provided their owners with actual gold. To put it another way, in the past, fiat money was backed by gold, today, it is backed by the assets of the banks and by land, cars, homes and other property of the borrowers.

So no, loans are not just entries into a bank database. Loans are both rights and obligations. Bitcoin on the other hand is just entry into a database, i.e. - NOTHING.

Central Bank printed money are papers that represent loans of borrowers the same as paper Treasury bill certificates represented a short-term debt obligation of the U.S. government. Loan and debt are SOMETHING. Bitcoin is NOTHING.

BITCOIN is being use to scam people, but BTC it self is not a scam but another level of money!
This ipens new opportunity to many people, but these people or we, should know the right use of this currency.
If we will be looking forward to it like what pyramiding made to us before, then you should stay away!

And they can print those papers infinitely which means they can create infinite debt.

That's uh scam baby.

You can't do that with bitcoin because you can't create more than 21 million coins.

The amount of debt you can have with bitcoin is limited, unlike FIAT.

Go take eco101. You need proper education.

fiat money is as you said in previous posts. just an entry in a database.
the contract terms are not saved to that bank database. fiat money is just digits in a database

the rules of granting a loan are the rules of decision of those maintaining the databas. much like the bitcoins consensus protocol decides which block is acceptable

what happens with the units of account of a database are not shown in the database. again the consensus of a bank. the consensus protocol of bitcoin and the humans involved decide the value and reason to move the unit of account from one entity to another

bitcoin however is actually better than the banks fiat database because bitcoin can define rules in code rather than relying on paper/human thought. EG smart contracts can set utility/function to the units of account. even the very simple things such as a block reward remains locked(maturing) for 100 further blocks ahead of it before being spendable. thus making bitcoins unit of account more than just an entry in a database. but something of function/utility.

bitcoin too can do all the function of fiat. it can be transfered, the reason for the transfer can be for the same human decision as fiat, for being sold against products and services, inheritance. and yes even used to pay for a house. it can be escrowed and contracts set up that people then need to pay with other financial sources to repay the bitcoin payment of the house. just like mortgages


loan agreements are just protocol rules. much like bitcoin consensus rules. but its funny how your now diverting away from talking about the fiat itself and now talking about rules of human decision outside the context of the unit of account database

no they are not forced to use it until all their debt is paid off
if i have british debt. i can simply get on a plane. go to america and use dollars and just leave the british debt.simple choose never to touch a pound ever again
debts can be written off
i can live on bitcoin, euro or any other currency. i can even live like a hermit and forrage for food. or do manual labour in exchang for barter for food/lodgings and avoid all fiat currency all together
this is because the fiat database unit of account is as you say just numbers on a database

a blockreward is just an entry in a database. but the bitcoin consensus rules are the rights and obligations that make that blockreward 'granted' to exist. learn about consensus rules and orphans/rejects. it might surprise you
EG a block reward may only exist if it shows it has performed a minimum task and met rules. only blocks meting thos obligations get the right to have a blockrward granted to exist.

same as fiat is just an entry in a database. but the banker rules are the rights and obligations that make that fiat 'granted' to exist

atleast grasp the basics of economy

Debt is not scam but a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received. Scam is when you tell the public that changed entry in a database(Bitcoin) is money or asset.

Debt is a scam when you can create them infitinitely.

USD is debt paper and FED can create debt paper infinitely. The debt papers they are creating is not backed by anything.

This is how this game ends:
Switzerland’s Central Bank Made $55 Billion Last Year—More Than Apple (https://www.wsj.com/articles/55-billion-profit-for-giant-asset-managerthe-swiss-central-bank-1515485509)

Switzerland's CB made more money than Apple by doing simply nothing.

This is what the US doing for decades.

You can't do any of these with Bitcoin.

FIAT = Debt Paper = Bubble = SCAM.

Bitcoin = Pin.

Well, you can keep repeating your nonsense but this won't change the fact that fiat money is DEBT(right and obligation), while entry in a database is just means to expres the size of this right and obligation. Your Bitcoin on the other hand is entry in a database that expresses the size of NOTHING.

What a stupid argument. It is like saying: we can create numbers infinitely - therefore NUMBERS are SCAM.

Stupid argument? At least I got one. You don't have any.

Come back when you have something to say. Cursing and shouting gibberish won't help you.

Well, your argument is indeed stupid since the ability to produce something doesn't render something a scam. Regarding my argument, it is pretty simple: Bitcoin is the name for changed entry in a database (change from 0 to 50 initially). By changing entries, SOMETHING cannot appear or despair. Therefore, Bitcoin is NOTHING. Telling the public that NOTHING is money or asset is SCAM.

You are still continuing with your gibberish.

Read my post above again.

Bitcoin's supply is limited. It is not debt papers. It doesn't promise you anything but a safe transaction.

FIAT used to be backed by gold. It is now backed by debt. You can't put a cap on the debt you create. Gold was limited supply, debt is not.

That's why they had to leave gold standard. Bitcoin is similar to gold standard. The supply is limited and you have to work to extract new coins.

The difference is, you can send and receive your money very fast, unlike gold. Also no physical form neither, again unlike gold.

Bitcoin is the ultimate form of money.

The fact that some algorithmic constraint doesn't allow for sum of numeric changes in a database to exceed 21 million, has nothing to do with supply. Supply is a economic concept that describes the total amount of SOMETHING that is available to consumers. Since Bitcoin is the name for changed entry in a database and SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries, Bitcoin has nothing to do with mentioned economic concept. Bitcoin is an informatics concept related to database management. On the other hand, fiat money is economic concept since fiat money is DEBT or LOAN, which is an actual thing - SOMETHING that has supply by definition.

In the same way fiat money is represented by DB entries at banks, Bitcoin is represented by entries in blockchain.
They are similar. All the rest is convention. In the same way one accept fiat for his work and pay for goods and services, another can accept Bitcoin for his work and pay  for goods and services.
Indeed, there are difficulties in this because the poor legislation and the lack of payment processors make it difficult to accept and spend Bitcoin, but that will be solved in time.

You say debt, loan and so on. Cannot [insert any entity here] lend Bitcoin? As I said, it's all about convention. You have to either get out of that box, either stop trolling, whichever is the case.

"something"
lol

mind blowing knowledge of economics "something"

...
so you obviously accept fiat is just digits in a database. thus you have moved away from the database debate.

so you now want to debate the rules/reason/utility for the creation.
fiat is contract rules that are flimsy, uncontrolled and can cause distress for those involved. bitcoin is consensus rules of happy agreement without threat or flimsy rationale..

....
fiat is based on debt. where it costs NOTHING to create fiat debt. but leaves the recipient being informed that they must do things after receiving it 'or else'. though the threat is only feared by those that dont know better about ways to avoid/evade the threat.

however bitcoin has a creation cost. and it does not demand the recipient to do things after receipt 'or else'. it offers freedom and oppertunity

meaning people that desire an economy without threat/slavery/servitude can give goods and services to bitcoin knowing once they have bitcoin they have freedom...

or they can be given fiat requiring headaches to get it, and then threats after getting it.

...
but with that said. to simplify it the consensus rules of creating bitcoin and the rules of creating fiat. are rules. but bitcoins rules and method and results are better than fiat

Well, the point of this discussion is exactly the distinction between the actual thing (DEBT or LOAN or FIAT MONEY) and its representation (DB entry). So, we have TWO separate entities - the thing (money) and DB entry (representation of the thing). On the other hand, Bitcoin is DB entry and DB entry is Bitcoin. Thus, we have only one entity. That means that NOTHING is represented in a DB called blockchain and its entries are just empty or useless mathematical abstractions. It's like changing number 0 to number 50 in your excel spreadsheet. Hence, Bitcoin system is just a system which changes, stores and secures numbers, which has nothing to do with economy, money, payment, asset or whatever, since all these instances presuppose the existence (or the exchange) of actual things, not numbers. In a Bitcoin system no such thing exists, but only numbers, which renders this system just a DB management system.

Nothing? Ask the miners how much investment were spent on electricity, and mining equipment.


There are no "changes" made in the blockchain, it's an append only "ledger". But not an ordinary "ledger", it's a censorship-resistant "ledger". An open, neutral, permissionless, stateless "ledger" housing digital a "coin" with no central clearing-house.

One "coin" costs $3,800. You might believe the "coin" doesn't value, but the market clearly does. 8)

And what is this thing? It's nothing. What gives value to thins thing is the convention. The same type of convention that gives value to Bitcoin. The convention that you can use this "db entry" to get paid for goods and services and also pay.

Let's think further: what makes a difference between a 100$ bill and a 10$ bill? In your words 100$ is clearly a scam because it's no big difference from the 10$. Same paper, same ink, some writings on it. Why would it value more? (The answer is: because of convention.)

This article is not accurate for many reason, one of which is glorifying the fiat that has no value backing it but just a mere paper legislation, that is what actually gives dollar it value, and many conflicting economic policies are already taking a negative toil on it. The bitcoin has come to resolve many issues associated with our fiat and the fraudulent financial system. The bitcoin itself is very difficult and complex to create, this makes it very valuable and it fits as  currency and store of value.

Well, that's just semantics then, and my argument looks like this:

If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that economic things(goods, services or rights) cannot appear or disappear by adding or deleting numerical database(DB) entries, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmically added numerical entry (50 initially) into a DB called blockchain, is in economic sense actually NOTHING or nothingness.

#

communal fiat are state currencies that reward individuals of a state for work that benefits the community, bitcoin is no way doing that,

this community proofed with you again that its full of idiots

This is absolutely right. You can't create stuff out of thin air. There is no title (what you are calling 'rights') in Bitcoin.

There are no coins, or transactions or ledgers. They are all metaphors for what we are doing.

'We' as in people, real live humans.

What we are doing is coming to agreements, peer-to-peer, that my x is worth your y, and we are both happy to swap them.

We redesigned economics, correctly this time, while you slept, so that it is actually honest.

But the whole point is that "your x" is DB entry and "my y" is economic thing ( good, service or right). Giving goods, services or rights for DB entry is not market exchange (agreement on value), but giving your stuff for free and hoping others will do the same, which is essentially how ponzi schemes operate.

No, read again, that is not the point. There is no title or db.

That's irrelevant. Any market or payment system assumes the exchange of goods, services or rights between parties. In the case of bitcoin nothing is exchanged, but only numbers are added into the DB (blockchain). Thus, the point is that bitcoin has nothing to do with market or payment or agreement on value or economy. The whole bitcoin system is just a DB management system. People are giving their stuff for free because they falsely believe that DB management system is payment system.

You have a very wrong perception of what fiat is.
Fiat is not just a loan fiat is something like a governmental order or decree of a particular rejoin it could also be financial

https://i.imgur.com/6Mj74B0.jpg

I get it, I really do, new concepts are hard, sometimes even treacherous; but this was all dealt with in 1929.
Your standard economic models did not work then, and they do not work now.
I guess somehow that will be irrelevant to you.

My perception of FIAT is not the issue here. The issue is the fact that FIAT is RIGHT (economic thing), while bitcoin is DB entry and that giving economic thing for DB entry is giving your stuff for free.

DB management system is not a new concept. What is new is the level of human stupidity where adding entries into a DB is called payment.

This is an unfunded article and a trash because from your analysis on dollar how the bank issues it as a loan to how the owners of goods and services accept it as a collateral does not colorate with the economic definition of money, bitcoin is the advance level of all currency and at that it run on the decentralized bank call the blockchain and if you agree with me with the definition of money then bitcoin will not be a language manipulation as you have said.

If having a dollar is similar to have right to goods than explain me this chart...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YTyPGaEsBcw/T0Kd1nS9zJI/AAAAAAAABQw/MhD1cWnfJI8/s320/Purchasing%2BPower%2Bof%2BU.S.%2BDollar.jpg

Why my 100$ bill from 1900 is now worth as much as 3$ was worth in 1900? Where are my 97$ worth goods? Disappeared due to inflation? Due to printing scam fiat money into system without coverage of goods?

Dollar (any fiat currency without gold standard) is the biggest scam of present.

Bitcoin is not a currency. A currency is money. Money is an actual thing, such as good or certificate that grants specific rights (gold certificate or debt certificate(dollars, euros). Bitcoin is DB entry. DB entry is a record or notation of an occurrence. Bitcoin is the record of occurrence where one gives his goods, services or money for free. Calling a DB entry a currency is semantic manipulation. That's why I said that bitcoin is a scam that thrives on language manipulation.

There is no causal relationship between inflation and the nature of dollars.

Well you did not answer my question. If dollar is similar to "RIGHT to goods" than where are my 97 $ worth goods? dollar is just piece of paper that i worth as much as someone is going to give for it currently. It has no value.
From that chart you can see that its value is continuously going to 0.
Average fiat currency dies after 27 years...

Although bitcoin is only a database but it is not possible to change existing data entries, because bitcoin itself is a digital currency that is decentralized and does not depend on any institution

Your 97 $ worth goods are on the market. Borrowers are constantly producing goods and services to be able to earn salaries or revenue for their dollar loan payments. In other words, borrowers are obligated to use your dollars, which means that you have rights to their goods and services. So, it's pretty simple.

Your overall point is quite interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that since bitcoin is just some code in a database and doesn't correspond to real-world value, it cannot be considered sound money or a currency. You're right in that bitcoin originated in a form that wasn't backed by real-world value. Now, to create real-world value, all it takes is the faith of two people. That's it. Two people, amongst each other, have to agree that there is value in bitcoin, and all of a sudden, it's backed by everything in the world that has value.

A simple example is this, which happened to me last night. Some friends came to my dorm room, and we decided to play blackjack. We didn't have money - all we had were playing cards and Monopoly Deal cards (which is another card game). We decided that for that session, one Monopoly Deal card would be worth $1, and we played blackjack using the Monopoly Deal cards as chips. It is true that intrinsically, the Monopoly Deal cards have little to no value. However, in that room, and in that game, each card became worth $1 simply because we, amongst each other, trusted that we would honour the value. If one of the friends in the group who was acting as the dealer refused to payout the Monopoly Deal cards into real money in case someone won, then the cards would no longer be considered valuable.

Bitcoin is just what I described above blown up to a worldwide scale. Yes, bitcoins are intrisincally worthless. The moment a network of people starts to accept it, it instantly gains value. Now, thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people worldwide consider bitcoin to be money - money in the sense, it has value, it can purchase food, goods, services, and whatnot. If 100,000 people consider something to be worth $X, it doesn't matter if that object is code or dog shit. It's still valuable, and it still works, because of global decentralized trust. Not to mention the actual hardware and electricity that goes into maintaining the proof of work required to create blocks. That's a different argument altogether.

Trust is the mother of all investment frauds. You invest a certain amount of money into someone's investment scheme, then some data about you and your investment is added into the organizer's database (DB) as a record of your investment, and all you are left with is TRUST. Trust that you will get your money back in the future. But that in no way means that DB record of your investment is valuable, i.e. that trust magically made it valuable. This record is just a mark of your investment. Nothing more and nothing less. You cannot utilize that mark like goods or services are utilized.  Also, that mark is not legally enforceable like dollars are since they are debt certificates that grant rights to goods, services or collateral of the borrowers on the bases of their obligation to repay loans. So your mark or record in the DB is entirely worthless in economic sense. The same is true for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is just a numerical mark added into the DB. It is a mere DB entry that, as such, has zero value, regardless of TRUST.

Man, not again, please. Is bitcoin again a scam? We heard this hundreds of times and bitcoin is still here with us and will continue to exist as long as Internet will. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it a scam.

We also heard a thousand of times that the Earth is round, but flat-earthers are still here with us and will continue to exist as long as Earth will. Point?

That explains your nonsense and failure/refusal to accept facts and logic. 

In essence, you seem to believe the earth is flat just like you erroneously believe that bitcoin does not have value because it is merely numbers on a ledger. 

Never mind that such bitcoin ledger happens to be the first time that the byzantine general's problem was solved to prevent double spends and true digital scarcity through network verification and confirmation every 10 minutes.

Haven't heard that one before, normally it's price manipulation. Language based manipulation is true for people that all of these posts trying to spread fud and fomo for their bitcoins

Double-spending has absolutely nothing to do with bitcoin.  Double spending is a potential flaw in a digital money scheme in which the same money can be spent more than once. Unlike physical money, a digital money is represented with an entry in a database (DB) that can be duplicated or falsified.  As digital money is certificate that grants specific rights, such double-spending leads to inflation by creating a representation of rights that actually do not exist. So in the problem of double-spending we have two separate entities  - representation of the right(DB entry) and the right itself. Bitcoin on the other hand is only one entity - DB entry, and that entry represents nothing - it represents no right. As such it has nothing to do with double-spending.  

No they are not. You don't understand chart i placed in my first post.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YTyPGaEsBcw/T0Kd1nS9zJI/AAAAAAAABQw/MhD1cWnfJI8/s320/Purchasing%2BPower%2Bof%2BU.S.%2BDollar.jpg

It means that for $100 worth goods from 1900 you have to pay $3000 currently. It means that in 1900 all you need for leaving for whole month was worth $100. So $100 worth goods in 1900 means food for 4 weeks, bills (water, electricity, taxes, rent for house). Now $100 is worth as much as food for 1 week.
Food for 3 weeks, bills (water, electricity, taxes, rent for house) disappeared from value of $100 bill since 1900.

That is correct.  Double spending has nothing to do with bitcoin because bitcoin resolved that issue.  That is called Bitcoin 101, and you seem to NOT understand it, even though you are trying to present yourself as some kind of an expert about something that you clearly don't understand.  Hopefully, your handlers are paying you well to spout such nonsense.


Exactly.  Bitcoin solves that problem without any centralized authority, unlike fiat systems that require centralized banks to agree or validate.


You are not really saying anything new.


Huh?  What are you talking about?  Does not sound like bitcoin, you are talking about some other kind of crypto or fiat, perhaps?


Whatever the fuck you are talking about requires trust, and likely one of the authorities to ensure that there is no inflation.  Sounds like you are referring to some kind of centralized system.


Bitcoin is a system, not an entity (not "one entity" as you are saying).  In other words, you are talking gobble-dee-gook and in riddles.  ::) ::)

If you invested your goods and services into a debt instrument (dollar), that has maximum maturity of 30 yeras (long-term loans), then your current dollars have absolutely nothing to do with dollars (loans)  that were issued 120 years ago. You are comparing apples and oranges.

https://wolfstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/US-CPI-2018-05-purchasing-power-dollar.png

$50 bill from 2009 is now worth $40. Where are my $10 worth goods from every $50 bill i earned and didnt spend in 2009? Its been only 10 years since than. That is also comparing apples to oranges? Just stop talking that bitcoin is scam because fiat is bigger scam. Thats why bitcoin was created. We don't want to take part of this anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LyEKxDYbM

Bitcoin is money created by comunity for comunity with limited supply that noone can change. Its transparent and safe. Its utility creates its value and with value it has power to transfer goods.

If a bank grants a loan (obligation of the borrower), and this loan is represented with alphanumeric entry $50,000 in bank's database(DB), that means that when this loan(dollars) is put into circulation, the new holder of these dollars is granted RIGHT to borrowers goods, services or collateral as explained in the OP. Now, if someone arbitrarily changes DB entry from $50,000 to $500,000,000 in the deposit account of that new dollar holder that leads to inflation by creating the DB representation of rights that actually DO NOT EXIST, as no borrower and no loan contract is behind $499,950,000. Hence double-spending problem. In reality this is digital money counterfeit.

In the case of bitcoin there is no RIGHT that is represented with DB entry because bitcoin is a mere DB entry and a mere DB entry is bitcoin. That is why mentioning bitcoin it the context of double-spending is oxymoronic. Adding entries into a DB has absolutely and literally nothing to do with double-spending problem. Discrepancy between DB entries and the thing represented with DB entries is double-spending problem. So, bitcoin system is just a database management system and it has nothing to do with money or payment or spending or double-spending.

Good thoughts, and well put. Here's what you're saying:

Bitcoin is bad because it is based on -
i) Trust that you will receive your money back in the future
ii) A "mark" can't be used for goods or services
iii) Something that is not legally enforceable
iv) An organizer's central database

Dollars are good because they are based on -
i) Debt payable by a central entity
ii) An obligation for people to pay back loans

First and foremost, there are a few misconceptions about your idea of bitcoin. It is true that most speculators purchase bitcoin in the hopes that they can recover their money, with profit, in the future. However, for the people who use bitcoin as it is intended, they are generally doing it just to convert their fiat currency into a form of sound and secure money. Their purchase of bitcoin is not necessarily based on trust that they will one day get their money back, because they truly see bitcoin as money. (I, personally, feel the same way to some extent). That's point number one. The second misconception you have is that bitcoin can't be used for goods and services... it absolutely can. Your point was true in 2011 and maybe 2012, but it's 2019, and I can buy almost anything with bitcoin... things that even the dollar cannot buy.

Point number three may be a con; I'd agree with that. Bitcoin is not legally enforceable. Of course, it is a pareto optimality thing, because whereas buyers are worse off that they have no recourse if they send money to a scammer, merchants are much more safe when they accept bitcoin transactions. If you've tried PayPal, it's an utter nightmare for sellers. If PayPal was used on the dark web... imagine the utter shitshow it would be, speaking both legally and otherwise. So, yeah. Something not being legally enforceable is not always a bad thing. And of course, the fourth point... bitcoin is probably the furthest thing from a central database. That's the whole purpose of nodes, and that's the whole purpose of keeping the blocksize small: so that there can be an abundance of little databases peppered across the world who can verify and store what's going on, all the time.

Let's move onto dollars, shall we? It's very true that dollars are backed by something very tangible, and something that's unlikely to ever fall apart. However, it is eventually based on trust in a centralized system (which seems to be something you hate if it's in bitcoin, but something you praise if it's in dollars...?) Moreover, given an infinite timeframe, anything centralized is bound to collapse. All rules fade away (re: The British Empire), all fiat currencies die or inflate away into oblivion. Not to say that won't happen to bitcoin (it's a very young, 10 year old experiment) but it's much less likely to happen, since its value is based on decentralized, widespread trust which seems to grow day by day.

In conclusion, you're right that as of now, bitcoin is more risky. You see the government as more secure that a system of widespread trust, and I completely understand it. It's a rational position to have. But, over time, as the dollar inflates, as more governments turn tyrannical, as more and more restrictions are imposed... people will start craving freedom. People will crave power over their own money, and will want to stop being financially boxed in. People will crave... bitcoin.  ;D

Your $10 worth of goods are in the hands of borrowers. That is the risk of holding dollars (money in the form of debt instrument) long term. Your bitcoin on the other hand is no money, but database(DB) entry. It has no value since value cannot be created by adding numeric entry into a DB. Calling a DB entry a money is language manipulation.

Everything isn't money, until it is.

Casino chips are useless outside of a casino, but within the casino, they're worth everything. Arcade tickets are just useless bits of paper, until you step into the arcade and can redeem them for items. Bitcoin is just code as well. Let's say bitcoins are arcade tickets. Intrinsically worthless, right? But what if the whole world is the arcade, and every item in the world can be redeemed with the arcade tickets (bitcoin)? Well, isn't bitcoin, then, money? If something, regardless of how much value it intrinsically holds, is universally deemed to be valuable, what better definition of money exists? This isn't language manipulation, it's just truth.

Throughout all human history money has always been an actual thing - either commodity or certificate that grants specific rights. Even casino chips grant specific rights i.e. - casinos are legally obligated to cash chips they issued. When number is added next to your virtual address in a database (DB) called blockchain NOBODY is legally obligated to cash this number or to exchange it for goods or services, which means that no right is granted by Bitcoin. Also, Bitcoin is not a commodity. That's why Bitcoin is NOT money. It never was it never will. Bitcoin is a mere DB entry - a mark added to your virtual address that records the fact that you gave your stuff for free to someone. So calling Bitcoin a money is indeed language manipulation.

Wow I really read throughout the whole pages. That is tiring.
Why? You just keep on repeating every answer like you are copy pasting it.

You are saying bitcoin aint a currency or a commodity. Then why the hell do people are now using it to pay bills and other stuffs.
Some already withdrawn and traded it with an item just like how they did it ages ago. Just like gold.

What is really your purpose in doing all of this? You go to a bitcoin forum to waste time telling all of this?
You know we will always support bitcoin here.

If you are creating a new coin to compete with bitcoin then you might as well tell it earlier. ;D

Well, let's say that Bitcoin is a database. But why is the price of this database so high? Why do millionaires invest their money in Bitcoin?Why owners of a large number of bitcoins do not touch their assets?(Judging by Your post bitcoin should be manipulated).

This topic is not about human behaviour and what makes people do the things they do. This topic is about language manipulation where database entries are called money, which is getting uneducated people to invest their hard earned dollars/goods/services for a mere numerical marks in a database. People are of course free to give their valuable possessions for free to someone just because their gifts will be numerically marked in a database, but that won't magically make these marks money nor it denies my right to write about this.

So, your question is essentially why do people behave irrationally with money? Well, it's either greed or ignorance.

He is a sorry bankster scum which doesn't want to lose his so called "job" which is slavery in reality. Bitcoin is here to destroy the banking system and anything related to it.

He is getting paid to fight against bitcoin, indirectly. That's why he is repeating that bullshit over and over again.

It is a matter of life and death to him.

If no one uses the legacy banking, he won't have a job.

Don't you think that it is rational to avoid monetary system (investing in debt) seeing that amount of goods represented by this debt is shrinking all the time? We choice bitcoin due to rational reason not greed or ignorance.

This is community coin backed by its usage for community (storing value outside of system, transfer of value - this usage build its long term value and with long term value it has ability to transfer goods). Why you think its worse than coin backed by debt?

Why don't you look a little wider at this question.Perhaps a certain proportion of people are driven by greed and ignorance.But there are also people for whom greed and ignorance are alien.Let's Say Elon Musk.Listen to his podcast where he really admires bitcoin and sees it as the future.https://ark-invest.com/research/podcast/elon-musk-podcast (https://ark-invest.com/research/podcast/elon-musk-podcast).

The extent of any understanding will not provide benefits if it only focuses on its shortcomings. I think bitcoin is a form of management process that leads to a financial revolution strategy, where the main goal is to make it easier for people in making transactions. Currently bitcoin's the only currency that's known to be effective, because bitcoin can also be used in a series of systematic and coordinated processes.