Bitcoin is a scam that thrives on language manipulation

[Wildwest]

Although bitcoin is only a database but it is not possible to change existing data entries, because bitcoin itself is a digital currency that is decentralized and does not depend on any institution

[fxsurfer]

There is no causal relationship between inflation and the nature of dollars.

Well you did not answer my question. If dollar is similar to "RIGHT to goods" than where are my 97 $ worth goods? dollar is just piece of paper that i worth as much as someone is going to give for it currently. It has no value.
From that chart you can see that its value is continuously going to 0.
Average fiat currency dies after 27 years...

Your 97 $ worth goods are on the market. Borrowers are constantly producing goods and services to be able to earn salaries or revenue for their dollar loan payments. In other words, borrowers are obligated to use your dollars, which means that you have rights to their goods and services. So, it's pretty simple.

[StackGambler]

There is no causal relationship between inflation and the nature of dollars.

Well you did not answer my question. If dollar is similar to "RIGHT to goods" than where are my 97 $ worth goods? dollar is just piece of paper that i worth as much as someone is going to give for it currently. It has no value.
From that chart you can see that its value is continuously going to 0.
Average fiat currency dies after 27 years...

Your 97 $ worth goods are on the market. Borrowers are constantly producing goods and services to be able to earn salaries or revenue for their dollar loan payments. In other words, borrowers are obligated to use your dollars, which means that you have rights to their goods and services. So, it's pretty simple.

Your overall point is quite interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that since bitcoin is just some code in a database and doesn't correspond to real-world value, it cannot be considered sound money or a currency. You're right in that bitcoin originated in a form that wasn't backed by real-world value. Now, to create real-world value, all it takes is the faith of two people. That's it. Two people, amongst each other, have to agree that there is value in bitcoin, and all of a sudden, it's backed by everything in the world that has value.

A simple example is this, which happened to me last night. Some friends came to my dorm room, and we decided to play blackjack. We didn't have money - all we had were playing cards and Monopoly Deal cards (which is another card game). We decided that for that session, one Monopoly Deal card would be worth $1, and we played blackjack using the Monopoly Deal cards as chips. It is true that intrinsically, the Monopoly Deal cards have little to no value. However, in that room, and in that game, each card became worth $1 simply because we, amongst each other, trusted that we would honour the value. If one of the friends in the group who was acting as the dealer refused to payout the Monopoly Deal cards into real money in case someone won, then the cards would no longer be considered valuable.

Bitcoin is just what I described above blown up to a worldwide scale. Yes, bitcoins are intrisincally worthless. The moment a network of people starts to accept it, it instantly gains value. Now, thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people worldwide consider bitcoin to be money - money in the sense, it has value, it can purchase food, goods, services, and whatnot. If 100,000 people consider something to be worth $X, it doesn't matter if that object is code or dog shit. It's still valuable, and it still works, because of global decentralized trust. Not to mention the actual hardware and electricity that goes into maintaining the proof of work required to create blocks. That's a different argument altogether.

[fxsurfer]

There is no causal relationship between inflation and the nature of dollars.

Well you did not answer my question. If dollar is similar to "RIGHT to goods" than where are my 97 $ worth goods? dollar is just piece of paper that i worth as much as someone is going to give for it currently. It has no value.
From that chart you can see that its value is continuously going to 0.
Average fiat currency dies after 27 years...

Your 97 $ worth goods are on the market. Borrowers are constantly producing goods and services to be able to earn salaries or revenue for their dollar loan payments. In other words, borrowers are obligated to use your dollars, which means that you have rights to their goods and services. So, it's pretty simple.

Your overall point is quite interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that since bitcoin is just some code in a database and doesn't correspond to real-world value, it cannot be considered sound money or a currency. You're right in that bitcoin originated in a form that wasn't backed by real-world value. Now, to create real-world value, all it takes is the faith of two people. That's it. Two people, amongst each other, have to agree that there is value in bitcoin, and all of a sudden, it's backed by everything in the world that has value.

A simple example is this, which happened to me last night. Some friends came to my dorm room, and we decided to play blackjack. We didn't have money - all we had were playing cards and Monopoly Deal cards (which is another card game). We decided that for that session, one Monopoly Deal card would be worth $1, and we played blackjack using the Monopoly Deal cards as chips. It is true that intrinsically, the Monopoly Deal cards have little to no value. However, in that room, and in that game, each card became worth $1 simply because we, amongst each other, trusted that we would honour the value. If one of the friends in the group who was acting as the dealer refused to payout the Monopoly Deal cards into real money in case someone won, then the cards would no longer be considered valuable.

Bitcoin is just what I described above blown up to a worldwide scale. Yes, bitcoins are intrisincally worthless. The moment a network of people starts to accept it, it instantly gains value. Now, thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people worldwide consider bitcoin to be money - money in the sense, it has value, it can purchase food, goods, services, and whatnot. If 100,000 people consider something to be worth $X, it doesn't matter if that object is code or dog shit. It's still valuable, and it still works, because of global decentralized trust. Not to mention the actual hardware and electricity that goes into maintaining the proof of work required to create blocks. That's a different argument altogether.

Trust is the mother of all investment frauds. You invest a certain amount of money into someone's investment scheme, then some data about you and your investment is added into the organizer's database (DB) as a record of your investment, and all you are left with is TRUST. Trust that you will get your money back in the future. But that in no way means that DB record of your investment is valuable, i.e. that trust magically made it valuable. This record is just a mark of your investment. Nothing more and nothing less. You cannot utilize that mark like goods or services are utilized.  Also, that mark is not legally enforceable like dollars are since they are debt certificates that grant rights to goods, services or collateral of the borrowers on the bases of their obligation to repay loans. So your mark or record in the DB is entirely worthless in economic sense. The same is true for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is just a numerical mark added into the DB. It is a mere DB entry that, as such, has zero value, regardless of TRUST.

[killat]

Man, not again, please. Is bitcoin again a scam? We heard this hundreds of times and bitcoin is still here with us and will continue to exist as long as Internet will. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it a scam.

[fxsurfer]

Man, not again, please. Is bitcoin again a scam? We heard this hundreds of times and bitcoin is still here with us and will continue to exist as long as Internet will. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it a scam.

We also heard a thousand of times that the Earth is round, but flat-earthers are still here with us and will continue to exist as long as Earth will. Point?

[JayJuanGee]

Man, not again, please. Is bitcoin again a scam? We heard this hundreds of times and bitcoin is still here with us and will continue to exist as long as Internet will. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it a scam.

We also heard a thousand of times that the Earth if round, but flat-earthers are still here  with us and will continue to exist as long as Earth will. Point?

That explains your nonsense and failure/refusal to accept facts and logic. 

In essence, you seem to believe the earth is flat just like you erroneously believe that bitcoin does not have value because it is merely numbers on a ledger. 

Never mind that such bitcoin ledger happens to be the first time that the byzantine general's problem was solved to prevent double spends and true digital scarcity through network verification and confirmation every 10 minutes.

[kelz1]

Haven't heard that one before, normally it's price manipulation. Language based manipulation is true for people that all of these posts trying to spread fud and fomo for their bitcoins

[fxsurfer]

Man, not again, please. Is bitcoin again a scam? We heard this hundreds of times and bitcoin is still here with us and will continue to exist as long as Internet will. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it a scam.

We also heard a thousand of times that the Earth if round, but flat-earthers are still here  with us and will continue to exist as long as Earth will. Point?

That explains your nonsense and failure/refusal to accept facts and logic.  

In essence, you seem to believe the earth is flat just like you erroneously believe that bitcoin does not have value because it is merely numbers on a ledger.  

Never mind that such bitcoin ledger happens to be the first time that the byzantine general's problem was solved to prevent double spends and true digital scarcity through network verification and confirmation every 10 minutes.

Double-spending has absolutely nothing to do with bitcoin.  Double spending is a potential flaw in a digital money scheme in which the same money can be spent more than once. Unlike physical money, a digital money is represented with an entry in a database (DB) that can be duplicated or falsified.  As digital money is certificate that grants specific rights, such double-spending leads to inflation by creating a representation of rights that actually do not exist. So in the problem of double-spending we have two separate entities  - representation of the right(DB entry) and the right itself. Bitcoin on the other hand is only one entity - DB entry, and that entry represents nothing - it represents no right. As such it has nothing to do with double-spending.  

[Tytanowy Janusz]

Your 97 $ worth goods are on the market. Borrowers are constantly producing goods and services to be able to earn salaries or revenue for their dollar loan payments. In other words, borrowers are obligated to use your dollars, which means that you have rights to their goods and services. So, it's pretty simple.

No they are not. You don't understand chart i placed in my first post.



It means that for $100 worth goods from 1900 you have to pay $3000 currently. It means that in 1900 all you need for leaving for whole month was worth $100. So $100 worth goods in 1900 means food for 4 weeks, bills (water, electricity, taxes, rent for house). Now $100 is worth as much as food for 1 week.
Food for 3 weeks, bills (water, electricity, taxes, rent for house) disappeared from value of $100 bill since 1900.

[JayJuanGee]

Man, not again, please. Is bitcoin again a scam? We heard this hundreds of times and bitcoin is still here with us and will continue to exist as long as Internet will. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it a scam.

We also heard a thousand of times that the Earth if round, but flat-earthers are still here  with us and will continue to exist as long as Earth will. Point?

That explains your nonsense and failure/refusal to accept facts and logic.  

In essence, you seem to believe the earth is flat just like you erroneously believe that bitcoin does not have value because it is merely numbers on a ledger.  

Never mind that such bitcoin ledger happens to be the first time that the byzantine general's problem was solved to prevent double spends and true digital scarcity through network verification and confirmation every 10 minutes.

Double-spending has absolutely nothing to do with bitcoin.  

That is correct.  Double spending has nothing to do with bitcoin because bitcoin resolved that issue.  That is called Bitcoin 101, and you seem to NOT understand it, even though you are trying to present yourself as some kind of an expert about something that you clearly don't understand.  Hopefully, your handlers are paying you well to spout such nonsense.

Double spending is a potential flaw in a digital money scheme in which the same money can be spent more than once.

Exactly.  Bitcoin solves that problem without any centralized authority, unlike fiat systems that require centralized banks to agree or validate.

Unlike physical money, a digital money is represented with an entry in a database (DB) that can be duplicated or falsified.  

You are not really saying anything new.

As digital money is certificate that grants specific rights, such double-spending leads to inflation by creating a representation of rights that actually do not exist.

Huh?  What are you talking about?  Does not sound like bitcoin, you are talking about some other kind of crypto or fiat, perhaps?

So in the problem of double-spending we have two separate entities  - representation of the right(DB entry) and the right itself.

Whatever the fuck you are talking about requires trust, and likely one of the authorities to ensure that there is no inflation.  Sounds like you are referring to some kind of centralized system.

Bitcoin on the other hand is only one entity - DB entry, and that entry represents nothing - it represents no right. As such it has nothing to do with double-spending.  

Bitcoin is a system, not an entity (not "one entity" as you are saying).  In other words, you are talking gobble-dee-gook and in riddles. 

[fxsurfer]

Your 97 $ worth goods are on the market. Borrowers are constantly producing goods and services to be able to earn salaries or revenue for their dollar loan payments. In other words, borrowers are obligated to use your dollars, which means that you have rights to their goods and services. So, it's pretty simple.

No they are not. You don't understand chart i placed in my first post.



It means that for $100 worth goods from 1900 you have to pay $3000 currently. It means that in 1900 all you need for leaving for whole month was worth $100. So $100 worth goods in 1900 means food for 4 weeks, bills (water, electricity, taxes, rent for house). Now $100 is worth as much as food for 1 week.
Food for 3 weeks, bills (water, electricity, taxes, rent for house) disappeared from value of $100 bill since 1900.

If you invested your goods and services into a debt instrument (dollar), that has maximum maturity of 30 yeras (long-term loans), then your current dollars have absolutely nothing to do with dollars (loans)  that were issued 120 years ago. You are comparing apples and oranges.

[Tytanowy Janusz]

If you invested your goods and services into a debt instrument (dollar), that has maximum maturity of 30 yeras (long-term loans), then your current dollars have absolutely nothing to do with dollars (loans)  that were issued 120 years ago. You are comparing apples and oranges.

$50 bill from 2009 is now worth $40. Where are my $10 worth goods from every $50 bill i earned and didnt spend in 2009? Its been only 10 years since than. That is also comparing apples to oranges? Just stop talking that bitcoin is scam because fiat is bigger scam. Thats why bitcoin was created. We don't want to take part of this anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LyEKxDYbM

Bitcoin is money created by comunity for comunity with limited supply that noone can change. Its transparent and safe. Its utility creates its value and with value it has power to transfer goods.

[fxsurfer]

Man, not again, please. Is bitcoin again a scam? We heard this hundreds of times and bitcoin is still here with us and will continue to exist as long as Internet will. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it a scam.

We also heard a thousand of times that the Earth if round, but flat-earthers are still here  with us and will continue to exist as long as Earth will. Point?

That explains your nonsense and failure/refusal to accept facts and logic.  

In essence, you seem to believe the earth is flat just like you erroneously believe that bitcoin does not have value because it is merely numbers on a ledger.  

Never mind that such bitcoin ledger happens to be the first time that the byzantine general's problem was solved to prevent double spends and true digital scarcity through network verification and confirmation every 10 minutes.

Double-spending has absolutely nothing to do with bitcoin.  

That is correct.  Double spending has nothing to do with bitcoin because bitcoin resolved that issue.  That is called Bitcoin 101, and you seem to NOT understand it, even though you are trying to present yourself as some kind of an expert about something that you clearly don't understand.  Hopefully, your handlers are paying you well to spout such nonsense.

Double spending is a potential flaw in a digital money scheme in which the same money can be spent more than once.

Exactly.  Bitcoin solves that problem without any centralized authority, unlike fiat systems that require centralized banks to agree or validate.

Unlike physical money, a digital money is represented with an entry in a database (DB) that can be duplicated or falsified.  

You are not really saying anything new.

As digital money is certificate that grants specific rights, such double-spending leads to inflation by creating a representation of rights that actually do not exist.

Huh?  What are you talking about?  Does not sound like bitcoin, you are talking about some other kind of crypto or fiat, perhaps?

So in the problem of double-spending we have two separate entities  - representation of the right(DB entry) and the right itself.

Whatever the fuck you are talking about requires trust, and likely one of the authorities to ensure that there is no inflation.  Sounds like you are referring to some kind of centralized system.

Bitcoin on the other hand is only one entity - DB entry, and that entry represents nothing - it represents no right. As such it has nothing to do with double-spending.  

Bitcoin is a system, not an entity (not "one entity" as you are saying).  In other words, you are talking gobble-dee-gook and in riddles.  

If a bank grants a loan (obligation of the borrower), and this loan is represented with alphanumeric entry $50,000 in bank's database(DB), that means that when this loan(dollars) is put into circulation, the new holder of these dollars is granted RIGHT to borrowers goods, services or collateral as explained in the OP. Now, if someone arbitrarily changes DB entry from $50,000 to $500,000,000 in the deposit account of that new dollar holder that leads to inflation by creating the DB representation of rights that actually DO NOT EXIST, as no borrower and no loan contract is behind $499,950,000. Hence double-spending problem. In reality this is digital money counterfeit.

In the case of bitcoin there is no RIGHT that is represented with DB entry because bitcoin is a mere DB entry and a mere DB entry is bitcoin. That is why mentioning bitcoin it the context of double-spending is oxymoronic. Adding entries into a DB has absolutely and literally nothing to do with double-spending problem. Discrepancy between DB entries and the thing represented with DB entries is double-spending problem. So, bitcoin system is just a database management system and it has nothing to do with money or payment or spending or double-spending.

[StackGambler]

There is no causal relationship between inflation and the nature of dollars.

Well you did not answer my question. If dollar is similar to "RIGHT to goods" than where are my 97 $ worth goods? dollar is just piece of paper that i worth as much as someone is going to give for it currently. It has no value.
From that chart you can see that its value is continuously going to 0.
Average fiat currency dies after 27 years...

Your 97 $ worth goods are on the market. Borrowers are constantly producing goods and services to be able to earn salaries or revenue for their dollar loan payments. In other words, borrowers are obligated to use your dollars, which means that you have rights to their goods and services. So, it's pretty simple.

Your overall point is quite interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that since bitcoin is just some code in a database and doesn't correspond to real-world value, it cannot be considered sound money or a currency. You're right in that bitcoin originated in a form that wasn't backed by real-world value. Now, to create real-world value, all it takes is the faith of two people. That's it. Two people, amongst each other, have to agree that there is value in bitcoin, and all of a sudden, it's backed by everything in the world that has value.

A simple example is this, which happened to me last night. Some friends came to my dorm room, and we decided to play blackjack. We didn't have money - all we had were playing cards and Monopoly Deal cards (which is another card game). We decided that for that session, one Monopoly Deal card would be worth $1, and we played blackjack using the Monopoly Deal cards as chips. It is true that intrinsically, the Monopoly Deal cards have little to no value. However, in that room, and in that game, each card became worth $1 simply because we, amongst each other, trusted that we would honour the value. If one of the friends in the group who was acting as the dealer refused to payout the Monopoly Deal cards into real money in case someone won, then the cards would no longer be considered valuable.

Bitcoin is just what I described above blown up to a worldwide scale. Yes, bitcoins are intrisincally worthless. The moment a network of people starts to accept it, it instantly gains value. Now, thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people worldwide consider bitcoin to be money - money in the sense, it has value, it can purchase food, goods, services, and whatnot. If 100,000 people consider something to be worth $X, it doesn't matter if that object is code or dog shit. It's still valuable, and it still works, because of global decentralized trust. Not to mention the actual hardware and electricity that goes into maintaining the proof of work required to create blocks. That's a different argument altogether.

Trust is the mother of all investment frauds. You invest a certain amount of money into someone's investment scheme, then some data about you and your investment is added into the organizer's database (DB) as a record of your investment, and all you are left with is TRUST. Trust that you will get your money back in the future. But that in no way means that DB record of your investment is valuable, i.e. that trust magically made it valuable. This record is just a mark of your investment. Nothing more and nothing less. You cannot utilize that mark like goods or services are utilized.  Also, that mark is not legally enforceable like dollars are since they are debt certificates that grant rights to goods, services or collateral of the borrowers on the bases of their obligation to repay loans. So your mark or record in the DB is entirely worthless in economic sense. The same is true for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is just a numerical mark added into the DB. It is a mere DB entry that, as such, has zero value, regardless of TRUST.

Good thoughts, and well put. Here's what you're saying:

Bitcoin is bad because it is based on -
i) Trust that you will receive your money back in the future
ii) A "mark" can't be used for goods or services
iii) Something that is not legally enforceable
iv) An organizer's central database

Dollars are good because they are based on -
i) Debt payable by a central entity
ii) An obligation for people to pay back loans

First and foremost, there are a few misconceptions about your idea of bitcoin. It is true that most speculators purchase bitcoin in the hopes that they can recover their money, with profit, in the future. However, for the people who use bitcoin as it is intended, they are generally doing it just to convert their fiat currency into a form of sound and secure money. Their purchase of bitcoin is not necessarily based on trust that they will one day get their money back, because they truly see bitcoin as money. (I, personally, feel the same way to some extent). That's point number one. The second misconception you have is that bitcoin can't be used for goods and services... it absolutely can. Your point was true in 2011 and maybe 2012, but it's 2019, and I can buy almost anything with bitcoin... things that even the dollar cannot buy.

Point number three may be a con; I'd agree with that. Bitcoin is not legally enforceable. Of course, it is a pareto optimality thing, because whereas buyers are worse off that they have no recourse if they send money to a scammer, merchants are much more safe when they accept bitcoin transactions. If you've tried PayPal, it's an utter nightmare for sellers. If PayPal was used on the dark web... imagine the utter shitshow it would be, speaking both legally and otherwise. So, yeah. Something not being legally enforceable is not always a bad thing. And of course, the fourth point... bitcoin is probably the furthest thing from a central database. That's the whole purpose of nodes, and that's the whole purpose of keeping the blocksize small: so that there can be an abundance of little databases peppered across the world who can verify and store what's going on, all the time.

Let's move onto dollars, shall we? It's very true that dollars are backed by something very tangible, and something that's unlikely to ever fall apart. However, it is eventually based on trust in a centralized system (which seems to be something you hate if it's in bitcoin, but something you praise if it's in dollars...?) Moreover, given an infinite timeframe, anything centralized is bound to collapse. All rules fade away (re: The British Empire), all fiat currencies die or inflate away into oblivion. Not to say that won't happen to bitcoin (it's a very young, 10 year old experiment) but it's much less likely to happen, since its value is based on decentralized, widespread trust which seems to grow day by day.

In conclusion, you're right that as of now, bitcoin is more risky. You see the government as more secure that a system of widespread trust, and I completely understand it. It's a rational position to have. But, over time, as the dollar inflates, as more governments turn tyrannical, as more and more restrictions are imposed... people will start craving freedom. People will crave power over their own money, and will want to stop being financially boxed in. People will crave... bitcoin.  

[fxsurfer]

If you invested your goods and services into a debt instrument (dollar), that has maximum maturity of 30 yeras (long-term loans), then your current dollars have absolutely nothing to do with dollars (loans)  that were issued 120 years ago. You are comparing apples and oranges.

$50 bill from 2009 is now worth $40. Where are my $10 worth goods from every $50 bill i earned and didnt spend in 2009? Its been only 10 years since than. That is also comparing apples to oranges? Just stop talking that bitcoin is scam because fiat is bigger scam. Thats why bitcoin was created. We don't want to take part of this anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LyEKxDYbM

Bitcoin is money created by comunity for comunity with limited supply that noone can change. Its transparent and safe. Its utility creates its value and with value it has power to transfer goods.

Your $10 worth of goods are in the hands of borrowers. That is the risk of holding dollars (money in the form of debt instrument) long term. Your bitcoin on the other hand is no money, but database(DB) entry. It has no value since value cannot be created by adding numeric entry into a DB. Calling a DB entry a money is language manipulation.

[StackGambler]

If you invested your goods and services into a debt instrument (dollar), that has maximum maturity of 30 yeras (long-term loans), then your current dollars have absolutely nothing to do with dollars (loans)  that were issued 120 years ago. You are comparing apples and oranges.

$50 bill from 2009 is now worth $40. Where are my $10 worth goods from every $50 bill i earned and didnt spend in 2009? Its been only 10 years since than. That is also comparing apples to oranges? Just stop talking that bitcoin is scam because fiat is bigger scam. Thats why bitcoin was created. We don't want to take part of this anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LyEKxDYbM

Bitcoin is money created by comunity for comunity with limited supply that noone can change. Its transparent and safe. Its utility creates its value and with value it has power to transfer goods.

Your $10 worth of goods are in the hands of borrowers. That is the risk of holding dollars (money in the form of debt instrument) long term. Your bitcoin on the other hand is no money, but database(DB) entry. It has no value since value cannot be created by adding entry into a DB. Calling a DB entry money is language manipulation.

Everything isn't money, until it is.

Casino chips are useless outside of a casino, but within the casino, they're worth everything. Arcade tickets are just useless bits of paper, until you step into the arcade and can redeem them for items. Bitcoin is just code as well. Let's say bitcoins are arcade tickets. Intrinsically worthless, right? But what if the whole world is the arcade, and every item in the world can be redeemed with the arcade tickets (bitcoin)? Well, isn't bitcoin, then, money? If something, regardless of how much value it intrinsically holds, is universally deemed to be valuable, what better definition of money exists? This isn't language manipulation, it's just truth.

[fxsurfer]

If you invested your goods and services into a debt instrument (dollar), that has maximum maturity of 30 yeras (long-term loans), then your current dollars have absolutely nothing to do with dollars (loans)  that were issued 120 years ago. You are comparing apples and oranges.

$50 bill from 2009 is now worth $40. Where are my $10 worth goods from every $50 bill i earned and didnt spend in 2009? Its been only 10 years since than. That is also comparing apples to oranges? Just stop talking that bitcoin is scam because fiat is bigger scam. Thats why bitcoin was created. We don't want to take part of this anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LyEKxDYbM

Bitcoin is money created by comunity for comunity with limited supply that noone can change. Its transparent and safe. Its utility creates its value and with value it has power to transfer goods.

Your $10 worth of goods are in the hands of borrowers. That is the risk of holding dollars (money in the form of debt instrument) long term. Your bitcoin on the other hand is no money, but database(DB) entry. It has no value since value cannot be created by adding entry into a DB. Calling a DB entry money is language manipulation.

Everything isn't money, until it is.

Casino chips are useless outside of a casino, but within the casino, they're worth everything. Arcade tickets are just useless bits of paper, until you step into the arcade and can redeem them for items. Bitcoin is just code as well. Let's say bitcoins are arcade tickets. Intrinsically worthless, right? But what if the whole world is the arcade, and every item in the world can be redeemed with the arcade tickets (bitcoin)? Well, isn't bitcoin, then, money? If something, regardless of how much value it intrinsically holds, is universally deemed to be valuable, what better definition of money exists? This isn't language manipulation, it's just truth.

Throughout all human history money has always been an actual thing - either commodity or certificate that grants specific rights. Even casino chips grant specific rights i.e. - casinos are legally obligated to cash chips they issued. When number is added next to your virtual address in a database (DB) called blockchain NOBODY is legally obligated to cash this number or to exchange it for goods or services, which means that no right is granted by Bitcoin. Also, Bitcoin is not a commodity. That's why Bitcoin is NOT money. It never was it never will. Bitcoin is a mere DB entry - a mark added to your virtual address that records the fact that you gave your stuff for free to someone. So calling Bitcoin a money is indeed language manipulation.

[Reid]

Wow I really read throughout the whole pages. That is tiring.
Why? You just keep on repeating every answer like you are copy pasting it.

You are saying bitcoin aint a currency or a commodity. Then why the hell do people are now using it to pay bills and other stuffs.
Some already withdrawn and traded it with an item just like how they did it ages ago. Just like gold.

What is really your purpose in doing all of this? You go to a bitcoin forum to waste time telling all of this?
You know we will always support bitcoin here.

If you are creating a new coin to compete with bitcoin then you might as well tell it earlier.

[drumamat]

If you invested your goods and services into a debt instrument (dollar), that has maximum maturity of 30 yeras (long-term loans), then your current dollars have absolutely nothing to do with dollars (loans)  that were issued 120 years ago. You are comparing apples and oranges.

$50 bill from 2009 is now worth $40. Where are my $10 worth goods from every $50 bill i earned and didnt spend in 2009? Its been only 10 years since than. That is also comparing apples to oranges? Just stop talking that bitcoin is scam because fiat is bigger scam. Thats why bitcoin was created. We don't want to take part of this anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LyEKxDYbM

Bitcoin is money created by comunity for comunity with limited supply that noone can change. Its transparent and safe. Its utility creates its value and with value it has power to transfer goods.

Your $10 worth of goods are in the hands of borrowers. That is the risk of holding dollars (money in the form of debt instrument) long term. Your bitcoin on the other hand is no money, but database(DB) entry. It has no value since value cannot be created by adding numeric entry into a DB. Calling a DB entry a money is language manipulation.

Well, let's say that Bitcoin is a database. But why is the price of this database so high? Why do millionaires invest their money in Bitcoin?Why owners of a large number of bitcoins do not touch their assets?(Judging by Your post bitcoin should be manipulated).