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Title: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: figmentofmyass on August 28, 2019, 06:46:16 PM the headline and "forgery" lede are a bit misleading, as the fraudulent gold bars bleeding into the market are in fact real gold. the purpose of counterfeiting in this case is to launder money by procuring and selling bars that look like they were produced at the world's major legitimate refineries.
the counterfeits are good enough that they've been found in the vaults of jpmorgan chase. i guess gold is pretty good for moving/laundering money after all! :D Quote LONDON (Reuters) - A forgery crisis is quietly roiling the world’s gold industry. Gold bars fraudulently stamped with the logos of major refineries are being inserted into the global market to launder smuggled or illegal gold, refining and banking executives tell Reuters. The fakes are hard to detect, making them an ideal fund-runner for narcotics dealers or warlords. In the last three years, bars worth at least $50 million stamped with Swiss refinery logos, but not actually produced by those facilities, have been identified by all four of Switzerland’s leading gold refiners and found in the vaults of JPMorgan Chase & Co., one of the major banks at the heart of the market in bullion, said senior executives at gold refineries, banks and other industry sources. ...... Fake gold bars - blocks of cheaper metal plated with gold - are relatively common in the gold industry and often easy to detect. The counterfeits in these cases are subtler: The gold is real, and very high purity, with only the markings faked. Fake-branded bars are a relatively new way to flout global measures to block conflict minerals and prevent money-laundering. Such forgeries pose a problem for international refiners, financiers and regulators as they attempt to purge the world of illicit trade in bullion. High gold prices have triggered a boom in informal and illegal mining since the mid-2000s. Without the stamp of a prestigious refinery, such gold would be forced into underground networks, or priced at a discount. By pirating Swiss and other major brands, metal that has been mined or processed in places that would not otherwise be legal or acceptable in the West – for example in parts of Africa, Venezuela or North Korea – can be injected into the market, channeling funds to criminals or regimes that are sanctioned. It is not clear who is making the bars found so far, but executives and bankers told Reuters they think most originate in China, the world’s largest gold producer and importer, and have entered the market via dealers and trading houses in Hong Kong, Japan and Thailand. Once accepted by a mainstream gold dealer in these places, they can quickly spread into supply chains worldwide. ...... “It’s a wonderful way of laundering conflict gold,” he said. “The gold is genuine, but it’s not ethically sourced ... They look completely genuine, they assay correctly, and they weigh correctly as well.” The perfect appearance makes the bars highly effective. “Because gold is completely fungible,” Hayes said, “you can bleed it into genuine production. It’s very, very hard to control.” J.P. Morgan supplies gold from major refiners for many of the world’s biggest banks, jewelers and investors, and the discovery of the forged bars in its vaults triggered a full review of the gold it held, market sources said. One said this sweep unearthed around 50 fraudulently-branded bars. Another said it found several hundred. J.P. Morgan did not comment. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gold-swiss-fakes-exclusive/exclusive-fake-branded-bars-slip-dirty-gold-into-world-markets-idUSKCN1VI0DD Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: 1Referee on August 28, 2019, 09:28:14 PM In this case it might be actual Gold still, but more closer to the retail market, there have been a shitload of Asian fake Gold bars that flooded the market. Kilo bars with tungsten in the center have been sold to a lot of people throughout the last years. People don't realize what they have until they sell their Gold, which we will definitely hear more about now Gold is going through a bullish run itself.
It's a tough position to be in if you're heavily into Gold. I know someone who's frequently trading gold bars and coins back and forth, but only does so when both parties agree to meet up in a shop that has been known to have years of experience and an x-ray metal analyzer to accurately know what the consistency is of the pieces they bring in. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: mu_enrico on August 29, 2019, 04:41:15 AM Wait what? I just know that there is such thing as "major legitimate refineries." In that case, isn't it still worth the same?
I thought gold is fungible. I think fake (cheap metal) gold is much more common than the previous one. I only know to buy gold with a certificate of authenticity from a local reputable company. Damn, should study more. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: davinchi on August 29, 2019, 01:38:37 PM If even gold is getting this type of scamming then there is really no point on not going over to blockchain route for everything. If you could just put up like a qr code deal or just some numbers that represents wallets or address on gold bars you can just check those gold bars on each time someone sell it and you can see where it was gotten from. That way if the company that got mimicked by the scammers (I know gold were real gold but the reputation was stolen) they would be able to refute or agree what has happened was actually what happened.
Otherwise we will keep having these type of stuff in all investment stuff, blockchain literally makes sure the owner is the correct one with many stuff like signatures and all which is the exact reason even cash should be tied to blockchain with their numbers. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: Rustamm on August 29, 2019, 02:06:14 PM A good option for money laundering and the sale of illegal gold, sooner or later it should have surfaced. By the way, this is a good argument in favor of the value of Bitcoin, because it can not be faked, filled with something and presented instead of the original, as was done with gold, filling it with tungsten.
Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: The Sceptical Chymist on August 29, 2019, 02:48:03 PM the counterfeits are good enough that they've been found in the vaults of jpmorgan chase. i guess gold is pretty good for moving/laundering money after all! :D Christ, this is always what's scared me about buying gold or silver--it doesn't matter if it's a bar or something like an American Silver Eagle, there are counterfeits floating around that could fool anyone. I definitely would trust big retailers who sell gold or silver straight from the mint, but I became way too paranoid about fakes early on. I'm a bit surprised that JP Morgan got fooled, though. You know it's bad when crap like that happens.By the way, this is a good argument in favor of the value of Bitcoin, because it can not be faked, filled with something and presented instead of the original, as was done with gold, filling it with tungsten. I would agree with that 100%, except that they're completely different things. Bitcoin is not a hedge against inflation, isn't a safe-haven asset, and can't be made into a nice piece of jewelry. Other than that, you're correct--no fake bitcoins are running around trying to pass themselves off as the real deal.Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: Lucius on August 29, 2019, 03:00:14 PM Those who support Bitcoin now have an additional reason to say that crypto is better then gold, just for reason Bitcoin can not be faked in any way except in the case of forks which misleading people to buy some much cheaper coin.
Now we learn that there is gold which we can call legal, and one that comes to the market through illegal channels. For world who wants to have full control in everything nothing can work that way, everything must go through official channels. But what about silver, precious stones, works of art or food, illegal trade and fake things flooded the world to the point that it became a common thing. Other than that, you're correct--no fake bitcoins are running around trying to pass themselves off as the real deal. Except several dozen of forked coins, who each claim to be the real Bitcoin. https://www.forks.net/list/Bitcoin//1/2017-01-01/2020-01-01 Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: audaciousbeing on August 29, 2019, 05:34:39 PM This alone is a slap on gold itself as a precious metal because this is just showing that it can be adulterated and when that happens, the end is closer than before. I wonder how possible it is to have a fake bitcoin mined from whatever place the adulterated personified individuals might want to go get one and that is an advantage I am seeing here that bitcoin has over gold and comparing them is even out of place.
Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: kryptqnick on August 29, 2019, 06:39:27 PM If even gold is getting this type of scamming then there is really no point on not going over to blockchain route for everything. If you could just put up like a qr code deal or just some numbers that represents wallets or address on gold bars you can just check those gold bars on each time someone sell it and you can see where it was gotten from. That way if the company that got mimicked by the scammers (I know gold were real gold but the reputation was stolen) they would be able to refute or agree what has happened was actually what happened. QR code also seems like a good idea to me. I suggested it a while ago when people were discussing whether fiat can be made so that it's impossible to fake it. Cryptos are indeed not to blame for money laundering activities. There's been various research showing that banks launder more money than cryptos (actually, this one is simply a fact) and that terrorists prefer fiat for now. Cryptos are associated with cybercrime, but it's also growing regardless of the usage of Blockchain, just because of the general advancements in tech. It's just easy to blame cryptos as something new and suspicious, and it's also an attempt of the old institutions to survive by accusing the new thing of having negative impact.Otherwise we will keep having these type of stuff in all investment stuff, blockchain literally makes sure the owner is the correct one with many stuff like signatures and all which is the exact reason even cash should be tied to blockchain with their numbers. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: BitHodler on August 29, 2019, 07:20:28 PM It's funny how when there is something negative going on in the precious metals world, JPMorgan's name always pops up. It wouldn't surprise me if they have something to do with this.
Every central bank has a database of the serial numbers of each gold bar that they own, yet duplicates managed to sneak their way into their reserves. This to me looks like this shady activity is purposely condoned. I find the reaction of people trying to poke fun of gold not really justified. They act like the bars are not real gold but that's not the case. All bars are 99.99% pure gold-- just the brand stamps are manipulated. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: hatshepsut93 on August 29, 2019, 09:31:19 PM the counterfeits are good enough that they've been found in the vaults of jpmorgan chase. i guess gold is pretty good for moving/laundering money after all! :D This is why Bitcoin will never be hugely popular for money laundering, it leaves a trace that will stay there forever, waiting to be untangled, but with physical things like gold or fine art or cash, all traces can be erased. And in Bitcoin it's much harder to obfuscate large transaction. Other than that, you're correct--no fake bitcoins are running around trying to pass themselves off as the real deal. Except several dozen of forked coins, who each claim to be the real Bitcoin. https://www.forks.net/list/Bitcoin//1/2017-01-01/2020-01-01 You need the tiniest bit of Bitcoin knowledge to tell the fakes from real Bitcoin, while with gold only specially trained experts can do it. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: figmentofmyass on August 29, 2019, 10:26:09 PM the counterfeits are good enough that they've been found in the vaults of jpmorgan chase. i guess gold is pretty good for moving/laundering money after all! :D Christ, this is always what's scared me about buying gold or silver--it doesn't matter if it's a bar or something like an American Silver Eagle, there are counterfeits floating around that could fool anyone.at the end of the day, you've got kilo bars of pure gold in your hands either way. if a counterfeit is good enough to be fungible, who really cares? i have a certain appreciation for people who can beat the system. there's a parallel to bitcoin here. some people are seeking out "legit" bitcoin and will pay a premium for it---like freshly mined "virgin" coins or coins auctioned off by the USA government. they avoid exchanges, mixers, and other services because they don't want "tainted" coins. just like gold custodians don't want "tainted" gold. at the end of the day, i'd rather everything be fully fungible. lack of fungibility only hurts little guys like us. if it's real gold, or my node says it's real bitcoin, that's good enough for me. and i wish that were true for everyone else. that would be a truly free market. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: guoyu78 on August 30, 2019, 01:08:08 PM This fake gold is more common in Asian country, especially china, I am even surprised that Japan is involved also because I know japan to always be after quality which is why they have one of the best quality technology from Japan. I do buy some gold a lot from chine, some of them are actually gold, but with a very thin layer and as the article said here, they are almost more of metals, but the ones that I buy are more of metals.
I know that it could be legal sometimes because gold is divided into 10k, 14k, 18k and 24 karat, I think the 24 karats is actually what is meant to be used for gold bar and if anyone is selling anything less than that is probably practicing a fraudulent business. I think is better if people transact more on digital gold, which is safer than the physical gold. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: CryptoBry on August 30, 2019, 02:16:42 PM I am amazed with this story. Right now, there is a growing demand of gold as it is originally the safe haven in times of distress and chaos. The perennial demand for gold has been the very reason why unscrupulous personalities can be engaging in fake gold and even use gold to launder illegal money. So it is not anymore true to say that it is Bitcoin that is facilitating money laundering as any asset digital or not can be utilized for this activity. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: dothebeats on August 30, 2019, 04:25:41 PM Wait what? I just know that there is such thing as "major legitimate refineries." In that case, isn't it still worth the same? I thought gold is fungible. That's what a lot of people thought, too. Just because gold came from legitimate sources doesn't mean the gold per se is legitimate; there are still some that passes through inspection and sometimes, what they give you isn't pure gold and there are some elements added to it to attain that mass. Even if you have the paperwork, if you were given gold with some % of it being mixed with other metals, you are not holding an authentic gold at your hands. I think fake (cheap metal) gold is much more common than the previous one. I only know to buy gold with a certificate of authenticity from a local reputable company. Damn, should study more. Yep, and gold with cheap metals embedded within it has been more and more common in contemporary times knowing that security protocols and ways to detect gold hasn't changed much since forever. The gold market is a scary place to be in, especially those people who are not so meticulous in what they buy. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: Febo on August 30, 2019, 04:39:36 PM I am amazed with this story. Right now, there is a growing demand of gold as it is originally the safe haven in times of distress and chaos. The perennial demand for gold has been the very reason why unscrupulous personalities can be engaging in fake gold and even use gold to launder illegal money. So it is not anymore true to say that it is Bitcoin that is facilitating money laundering as any asset digital or not can be utilized for this activity. Bitcoin was never used much for money laundering. Its transparent ledger makes it extremely hard to hide your wealth in it. The only advantage I see it have is easy to transfer on other side of world, but you simply cant hide it or spend/exchange that easy. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: stompix on August 30, 2019, 05:39:46 PM Those who support Bitcoin now have an additional reason to say that crypto is better then gold, just for reason Bitcoin can not be faked in any way except in the case of forks which misleading people to buy some much cheaper coin. Now we learn that there is gold which we can call legal, and one that comes to the market through illegal channels. For world who wants to have full control in everything nothing can work that way, everything must go through official channels. But what about silver, precious stones, works of art or food, illegal trade and fake things flooded the world to the point that it became a common thing. Unfortunately, this happens to bitcoin also, even without regulations. So-called "virgin" or "clean" coins, newly generated coins that are purchased directly from a miner sell at a premium, sometimes even at 20%-30% if we believe some claims which is a bit too much in my opinion but I'm certain that they are at least 5%-1% more expensive than the exchange price. I find the reaction of people trying to poke fun of gold not really justified. They act like the bars are not real gold but that's not the case. All bars are 99.99% pure gold-- just the brand stamps are manipulated. Yeah, people should really pay a bit more attention, and the OP did mention it. It is not about fake gold making its way into JP's safe vaults but real gold with fake date and location of birth ;D ;D It's not like an adibas or nykey rip-off and more like Huawei claiming its phones are made in the US. Seriously, does anybody care is the gold is from Australia or Somalia, if your gas is from Irak or Norway? As long as it works and it's cheaper...less than 1% care about the origin. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: ene1980 on August 30, 2019, 07:14:21 PM the fraudulent gold bars bleeding into the market are in fact real gold. the purpose of counterfeiting in this case is to launder money by procuring and selling bars that look like they were produced at the world's major legitimate refineries. There are many illegal mining fields when it comes to gold in Africa and South America and all of these comes into the market, they are making replica logo to infiltrate the market and it is not that easy to stop these flow of illegal gold in the market. Glad to see these kind of topic when everyone is going after bitcoin and this market to see these kind of news :D.the counterfeits are good enough that they've been found in the vaults of jpmorgan chase. i guess gold is pretty good for moving/laundering money after all! :D This happens when they start shitting bitcoin, Karma hits hard in their arse :D.Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: Thirdspace on August 30, 2019, 07:51:30 PM It is not about fake gold making its way into JP's safe vaults but real gold with fake date and location of birth ;D ;D yes that's correct and unfortunately some people in this thread totally misunderstood the idea OP clearly explained, the gold bars are real gold metal but the markings are fake (forged) on the topic, I understand the reason behind this is to launder conflict gold or maybe even to purge stolen gold by melting and (fake) re-stamping to make it legit but I don't get how it is being used to launder money ??? aren't gold producers/dealers/trading houses keeping records of their customers? Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: exstasie on August 30, 2019, 08:34:02 PM but I don't get how it is being used to launder money ??? aren't gold producers/dealers/trading houses keeping records of their customers? Organized crime syndicates are pretty good at procuring fake ID and spinning up shell companies. Any syndicate that can make counterfeits this good are highly sophisticated. The counterfeits are also so good that any dealer would have plausible deniability. Talk to the right dealers and offer the right kickbacks in Hong Kong or Thailand and you might find the right help to get your gold into circulation. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: atjiat on August 31, 2019, 05:30:00 PM Based on what you said, I could assume that gold business is very bad and this despite the fact that this business is legal and is under state control in every country. If such a situation exists in the gold market, then what can we talk about the use of cryptocurrency in criminal activity.
Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: fiulpro on September 01, 2019, 06:05:00 PM Well you know I belong to a family who is into this gold business ..so I know how easy it is .. for anyone to actually keep millions of gold at house ..money laundering ..black market ... Buying illegal things and all ...it is not tracable and it can actually be hidden all the way out ..
Many politicians and other people actually hide the money in terms of gold and it gets messy but once it's hidden good then you can use it for anything. Also girls use the benefit of transportation of gold through aeroplanes and all so it is actually easier to play in the black market . Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: SquallLeonhart on September 01, 2019, 07:57:35 PM Based on what you said, I could assume that gold business is very bad and this despite the fact that this business is legal and is under state control in every country. If such a situation exists in the gold market, then what can we talk about the use of cryptocurrency in criminal activity. In all this, one thing that struck my mind is that government can now see that bitcoin is not the only devil that they do see bad people send on an errand, bad things do happen everywhere in every system, and no system is a saint, it is just the ability of those who we put in authority to control and protect the system rather than criticizing it.With all these that is happening around gold also, why has governments that has been antagonizing bitcoin not criticized it, but rather, they are doing their best to make it a safe haven by fighting of the criminal activities around it. is that not what they are supposed to do for bitcoin also, so that it can make things right with all these system that involves digital assets. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: STT on September 01, 2019, 09:24:05 PM but I don't get how it is being used to launder money ??? Anytime theres a cheaper source of something that can be sold at a higher price, crime will attempt to short circuit that potential difference for profit. Arbitrage is what crime does just with no regard to proper ownership or legal hindrance, we cant be surprised this is an ongoing problem. What should really be happening is the gold for vaults is sourced from mines and financing is never short for honest companies. As I hear it, mines are often left short because risks has big money preferring government and the easy win of QE programs and certain gains from that. Thats good for me as an investor because the premium and gap in the market gives a better return for those investors who do take an interest in gold as a bull market and that central banks have been net buyers for over ten years now. Its a good idea to post this article to underline that pretty much every monetary type can become fraudulent and aid crime in gaining funding and profits. The bigger the market, the more attractive it is to large fraud and rogue national agents as the money is easier to 'lose'. BTC of course has good tracking and is open in comparison, its a poor criticism. Quote the counterfeits are good enough that they've been found in the vaults of jpmorgan chase. Common practise by those who buy in the millions, vault owners is to melt down the gold and rebrand it. I believe thats how its done probably partly to disown any previous ownership, imagine how much gold is controlled during the previous world wars or the fall of various nations, Libya being the most recent with giant reserves as I recall.Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: BitHodler on September 01, 2019, 10:52:01 PM Common practise by those who buy in the millions, vault owners is to melt down the gold and rebrand it. I believe thats how its done probably partly to disown any previous ownership, imagine how much gold is controlled during the previous world wars or the fall of various nations, Libya being the most recent with giant reserves as I recall. I actually like that aspect of gold. It just requires you to melt it and then cast gold bars to get rid of any taint. This is where Bitcoin lacks, because coins that are lost are lost for ever, which can be problem long term speaking.Gold on the other hand can be re-used even after thousands of years. It doesn't lose any of its properties. And yes, this property of gold can be and is already quite frequently abused by criminals and even central banks. No way that central banks don't know what and who they buy from. They just don't care what brand and number has been stamped into the bar because it's still pure gold at the end of the day. It's worth just as much as their other bars. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: Kakmakr on September 02, 2019, 07:34:40 AM This is one of the things that popular media usually ignore, when they report on Bitcoin and money laundering. The highly regulated Gold industry and trading platforms are not immune to criminal syndicates that knows how to infiltrate these institutions and how to use this to launder their "dirty" money.
The media is quick to point fingers at Bitcoin, but the formal Banking sector and large financial organizations are doing this on a much larger scale, without people even knowing this. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/business/standard-chartered-sanctions-violations.html Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: SquallLeonhart on September 03, 2019, 10:02:58 AM This is one of the things that popular media usually ignore, when they report on Bitcoin and money laundering. The highly regulated Gold industry and trading platforms are not immune to criminal syndicates that knows how to infiltrate these institutions and how to use this to launder their "dirty" money. They are castigating bitcoin because they know that bitcoin will block some of this means for them, I mean the banks, and for government, they are just fighting a wring course and there are so many things that is of threat and danger to the economy more than just bitcoin. The best they would have just done for bitcoin is to regulate it as much as they regulated the gold also, prior to when gold was regulated too.The media is quick to point fingers at Bitcoin, but the formal Banking sector and large financial organizations are doing this on a much larger scale, without people even knowing this. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/business/standard-chartered-sanctions-violations.html I am sure that some of these challenges would have hindered it a lot before government steps in to create regulation for it, but I believe that with time, government will serious consider bitcoin and then create the necessary regulation that will limit the crime rate in it, and maybe would be same level with gold, when it is able to pass as store of value. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: Indamuck on September 03, 2019, 12:13:00 PM At least bitcoin isn't easy to counterfeit :)
Everyone who buys gold should have a simple test kit and if they are purchasing large bars only buy them from a reputable dealer. I do like bitcoin a lot but I still think gold is a solid hedge because it has held value for thousands of years. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: bryant.coleman on September 04, 2019, 02:05:47 AM I am not entirely sure about this. From what I have heard, the bullion bars from the Swiss refineries come with certificates and these certificates are not very easy to counterfeit. Also, the bars will be having a unique serial number and most of the retailers keep a detailed log of the serial numbers and the shipment details (in case the owners are not anonymous).
That said, it is true that a lot of unaccounted money is being moved in the form of gold. It has become the primary route to circumvent the sanctions for North Korea (along with crypto-currency). Gold from North Korean mines are being sold in the markets of Northeast China, although it is against the UN sanctions and embargoes. Also, gold illegally mined from national parks and reserves from the Amazon rainforest also ends up as unaccounted gold. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: STT on September 04, 2019, 04:23:45 AM https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/business/standard-chartered-sanctions-violations.html I know this bank and have held shares in them, its an ancient bank and at times very profitable but not because its criminal but due to involvement with developing nations across the commonwealth and Asia which can be a very profitable position of arbitrage. It helps illustrate why central authorities dislike or fear Bitcoin because it is not centralised, it cannot be controlled or easily rebuked as happened to Standard Chartered. Stan must clear dollars in order to do business and taking part in that market requires the pass of various regulators and exchanges based in the USA, this means even as a global bank largely based outside the west they still are under the remit of the laws and sanctions of a country(s) in the west. The UN is often not so powerful as it lacks the depth of power in this way so its left to supporting nations such as USA or similar to enable the actions taken behind the headlines that sanctions bring. If BTC has no central authority, no reigns to control its usage it can easily be seen as a problem by some. Its a threat to politics and the control they want over various countries, it doesn't have to be doing anything especially bad just the fact it exists and its large enough to move hefty amounts of cash through is some kind of latent threat it seems. Gold is at least heavy and subject to physical confiscation and control, BTC is instant and undefinable in regulation terms almost. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: fullhdpixel on September 04, 2019, 10:23:11 AM Hell the regular investments are so crooked that most of the time stock brokers have insider info on stuff they invest whereas we are watching from outside like something brand new happened.
Most people have even spies on other companies so they would know whats going on and they that person a percentage of the money they make from the information they gave. Hence there is really no clean guys in regular investment neither, yes there are many scammers and money launderers in crypto that is true, however its same as the drug dealer problem, they say bitcoin makes drug dealers work easier online but before 2008 there was still a lot of drug dealers right? They didn't start working after 2008, it was always a thing. Same goes for financially bad people. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: markj113 on September 04, 2019, 10:30:11 AM At least bitcoin isn't easy to counterfeit :) Everyone who buys gold should have a simple test kit and if they are purchasing large bars only buy them from a reputable dealer. I do like bitcoin a lot but I still think gold is a solid hedge because it has held value for thousands of years. These bars are real gold, they are just stamped with fake refinery stamps. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: shield132 on September 04, 2019, 12:04:43 PM I knew people were trying all the best to mix some other metals and include less gold in bars in order to sell 450gm gold in price of 500mg (for example) but what I see now is unbelievable, they are just faking brand but with very high purity and quality gold, that's insane.
So gold is still pretty great thing for money laundering because people can fake it. But can people fake bitcoin? No, who not anyone talks about it from governments? Shit politics. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: TheCoinGrabber on September 04, 2019, 07:49:27 PM Meh, wouldn't mind it much though this is good news for bitcoins. At least the bars are still true gold. I guess such bars would be a pain to dispose if found out to be "fake" but maybe there can be other ways to use those.
I don't know the laws in the US but are people allowed to have their gold melted down? Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: Harlot on September 04, 2019, 08:45:51 PM And I guessed this is also the reason why Gold has started to climb back up several months already. No wonder that this happened as it has obviously affected the demand for gold somehow making it available to all the buyers who are interested. The thing is how can they do such action of a trademarket violation when the product itself is no different than being a real gold itself, it's just being misrepresented by the use of their own logo/branding without their permission? If I were a buyer and I am not sure if the gold bare I am buying is real then it is safe to back off rather than see it being confiscated in the future. The more pressing issue here is the gold bars being used to launder money itself and I'm surprised the JP Morgan was not implicated of any criminal charges of possessing some to their assets.
Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: exstasie on September 05, 2019, 07:40:05 AM At least bitcoin isn't easy to counterfeit :) Everyone who buys gold should have a simple test kit and if they are purchasing large bars only buy them from a reputable dealer. I do like bitcoin a lot but I still think gold is a solid hedge because it has held value for thousands of years. These bars are real gold, they are just stamped with fake refinery stamps. This story actually showcases one way that gold is superior. Stolen, conflict, or otherwise tainted gold can be melted down and re-stamped. This is much harder to trace than a public blockchain like Bitcoin where every transaction is permanently stored. With Bitcoin, the best you can do is mix your coin taint with others. With gold, taint can be completely erased. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: hatshepsut93 on September 06, 2019, 05:46:13 AM This story actually showcases one way that gold is superior. Stolen, conflict, or otherwise tainted gold can be melted down and re-stamped. This is much harder to trace than a public blockchain like Bitcoin where every transaction is permanently stored. With Bitcoin, the best you can do is mix your coin taint with others. With gold, taint can be completely erased. Is that really that different though? If mixing is good enough, the coins are as tainted as any other coin on the blockchain. And gold might not be perfect either, if someone really wanted, they could craft traceable gold bars by adding some isotopes or chemical markers. Or just using existing techniques - see here. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_fingerprinting) Meh, wouldn't mind it much though this is good news for bitcoins. I don't think that it's either good or bad for Bitcoin, in grand scheme of things it's irrelevant to Bitcoin. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: binhvo1505 on September 06, 2019, 06:40:54 AM wow, this is really a big deal. When the demand is greater than the supply, there will be traders who turn a piece of metal into real gold in a sophisticated way. sometimes those who import gold to sell to customers have encountered this situation.
If this news is widely circulated, I think gold prices will fall sharply. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: RealMalatesta on September 06, 2019, 05:16:59 PM I think there is a big difference between having faking a "brand" of gold and actually faking a gold bar. I mean if you fake a gold bar it would be quite easy to understand if its real or not, it is literally gold, if it is gold than it is, if not then it is not. Its not like paper money, it is not like fiat paper money where you can print more money and if its good quality then people wouldn't understand it.
There are a lot of people who print fake money and get away with it, this is not like that, gold is literally a material and you can check to see if it is actually gold. However the news is faking the brand of the gold which actually does put a value on it, I mean same with diamonds, normally they are worthless but with a brand they worth a lot, gold at least worth a lot without the brand as well. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: TheCoinGrabber on September 07, 2019, 03:27:39 PM This story actually showcases one way that gold is superior. Stolen, conflict, or otherwise tainted gold can be melted down and re-stamped. This is much harder to trace than a public blockchain like Bitcoin where every transaction is permanently stored. With Bitcoin, the best you can do is mix your coin taint with others. With gold, taint can be completely erased. Is that really that different though? If mixing is good enough, the coins are as tainted as any other coin on the blockchain. And gold might not be perfect either, if someone really wanted, they could craft traceable gold bars by adding some isotopes or chemical markers. Or just using existing techniques - see here. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_fingerprinting) Meh, wouldn't mind it much though this is good news for bitcoins. I don't think that it's either good or bad for Bitcoin, in grand scheme of things it's irrelevant to Bitcoin. I meant in the way that people kept accusing Bitcoin as easy to counterfeit or launder. We've always made the argument that the same can be said for fiat, this one shows that even gold experts can be fooled. With the fingerprinting, I wonder if pawnshops are equipped to detect doped gold. If I bought cheap gold bars and found out it's not "real" simply because it's lacking some seals, I'd be worried how I'll dispose it to get my money back. If they are doped but can pass through pawnshops undetected I might try to have them crafted into jewelry. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: Strongkored on September 08, 2019, 03:33:58 AM the headline and "forgery" lede are a bit misleading, as the fraudulent gold bars bleeding into the market are in fact real gold. the purpose of counterfeiting in this case is to launder money by procuring and selling bars that look like they were produced at the world's major legitimate refineries. The so-called fake gold is still real gold, only a fake brand, because if the gold is really fake, then something that is impossible can be found in JPMorgan Chase & Co branskas and it is ironic that JPMorgan Chase & Co. can be deceived like this.the counterfeits are good enough that they've been found in the vaults of jpmorgan chase. i guess gold is pretty good for moving/laundering money after all! :D Quote -snip- https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gold-swiss-fakes-exclusive/exclusive-fake-branded-bars-slip-dirty-gold-into-world-markets-idUSKCN1VI0DD From this news I can conclude that everything that can be used as a place for money laundering, so far we have heard that the blockchain is an alternative to money laundering, but it turns out that even certified gold can be done by falsifying documents or logos / brands. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: bryant.coleman on September 08, 2019, 04:55:11 AM I am still OK with this, as the only ones who are getting harmed are the major corporations and banks who charge exorbitant fees for their branded bullion bars and coins. The buyer is getting gold bars of a very high purity, supposedly at cheaper rates. He may face some issues while converting the bullion bars to cash, but it is still going to be profitable for him. Another positive is that it may help to remove the monopoly in the global gold market currently being held by major miners and refiners from South Africa, Russia.etc and make the playing field a bit more equal. The buyers will be having more options to choose from and increased supply means that in general the prices will come down.
Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: coolcoinz on September 08, 2019, 08:57:33 AM I am still OK with this, as the only ones who are getting harmed are the major corporations and banks who charge exorbitant fees for their branded bullion bars and coins. The buyer is getting gold bars of a very high purity, supposedly at cheaper rates. He may face some issues while converting the bullion bars to cash, but it is still going to be profitable for him. Another positive is that it may help to remove the monopoly in the global gold market currently being held by major miners and refiners from South Africa, Russia.etc and make the playing field a bit more equal. The buyers will be having more options to choose from and increased supply means that in general the prices will come down. You can never know what source, or rather area of business the dirty money comes from. They could come from theft. Would you like to buy cheap gold of high purity knowing that it was stolen and then melted to hide its origin? The problem with selling will also be there because if they are found to be fake you will need to pay someone to check if there isn't a core made of another metal and so on. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: 7788bitcoin on September 09, 2019, 07:22:40 AM The so-called fake gold is still real gold, only a fake brand, because if the gold is really fake, then something that is impossible can be found in JPMorgan Chase & Co branskas and it is ironic that JPMorgan Chase & Co. can be deceived like this. Since gold is a natural resource there are mines which are done illegally and to be considered as a bullion you need to have certain standards and a few authorized mints will produce those and we are living in a world where everything is duplicated and this is not a shocking news altogether.From this news I can conclude that everything that can be used as a place for money laundering, so far we have heard that the blockchain is an alternative to money laundering, but it turns out that even certified gold can be done by falsifying documents or logos / brands. Criminals will find a way to do illegal activities to launder money and blockchain can be used to put an end to those or at least reduce these illegal practices and for that we need more research and studies to come up with a near perfect solution. Logos and documents can be duplicated but you cannot enter a duplicate entry into a blockchain ;).Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: exstasie on September 09, 2019, 06:29:48 PM I am still OK with this, as the only ones who are getting harmed are the major corporations and banks who charge exorbitant fees for their branded bullion bars and coins. The buyer is getting gold bars of a very high purity, supposedly at cheaper rates. He may face some issues while converting the bullion bars to cash, but it is still going to be profitable for him. Another positive is that it may help to remove the monopoly in the global gold market currently being held by major miners and refiners from South Africa, Russia.etc and make the playing field a bit more equal. The buyers will be having more options to choose from and increased supply means that in general the prices will come down. You can never know what source, or rather area of business the dirty money comes from. They could come from theft. Would you like to buy cheap gold of high purity knowing that it was stolen and then melted to hide its origin? Official stamps might make you feel warm and cozy inside, but this is a longstanding practice. For example, the US government is long known to have melted down personal effects from the German occupation into official US treasury gold bars. This is basically how all conflict gold stolen in wars is treated. Money is treated as money, in other words. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: SquallLeonhart on September 11, 2019, 04:31:18 AM I meant in the way that people kept accusing Bitcoin as easy to counterfeit or launder. We've always made the argument that the same can be said for fiat, this one shows that even gold experts can be fooled. I guess that they now see that there is no system that is free of being used for fraudulent acts, security experts' would have given their strength by not even allowing the bar to enter into world market but even with the securities that they out in place, it still does happen even with gold market. With the fingerprinting, I wonder if pawnshops are equipped to detect doped gold. If I bought cheap gold bars and found out it's not "real" simply because it's lacking some seals, I'd be worried how I'll dispose it to get my money back. If they are doped but can pass through pawnshops undetected I might try to have them crafted into jewelry. I think it is even easier that way because gold too does not have limited supply like fiat also, and it could get into the hands of too many people at a particular time, but cryptocurrency have limited supply and it would t always have the supply till future, which means it can be controlled in future, but gold cannot be controlled and that is why its supply cannot even be accounted for, why bitcoin supply can really be accounted for. Well, the bar sleeping into the market is the responsibility of the government anyway. Title: Re: Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets Post by: coolcoinz on September 15, 2019, 09:37:48 AM I am still OK with this, as the only ones who are getting harmed are the major corporations and banks who charge exorbitant fees for their branded bullion bars and coins. The buyer is getting gold bars of a very high purity, supposedly at cheaper rates. He may face some issues while converting the bullion bars to cash, but it is still going to be profitable for him. Another positive is that it may help to remove the monopoly in the global gold market currently being held by major miners and refiners from South Africa, Russia.etc and make the playing field a bit more equal. The buyers will be having more options to choose from and increased supply means that in general the prices will come down. You can never know what source, or rather area of business the dirty money comes from. They could come from theft. Would you like to buy cheap gold of high purity knowing that it was stolen and then melted to hide its origin? Official stamps might make you feel warm and cozy inside, but this is a longstanding practice. For example, the US government is long known to have melted down personal effects from the German occupation into official US treasury gold bars. This is basically how all conflict gold stolen in wars is treated. Money is treated as money, in other words. True, but whether taking something from a country that lost the war is theft is a matter of opinion. Japan was being occupied after the war and the occupants did not think of themselves this way. In their minds they were peacekeepers. How much money, gold, oil was taken from Iraq? At the same time those little bank thefts, account hacks and other white collar crimes are always painted like the worst theft that needs to be weeded out as it destabilizes the system. The world is strange indeed. |