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Hey guys. I've been watching a lot of debates on youtube about this topic where theists, apologetics, philosophers, scientists, agnostics and atheists discuss whether religion has a monopoly over what people perceive to be right or wrong. Guys like WLC, Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Frank Turek, Richard Dawkins etc. Go after each other's throats to prove their points and honestly, i think every one of them has a valid argument.

What do you think?

You know, I believe that conscience is the best religion ever.
If you don't have it, you have no god inside you. Simple  :)

I understand that. Though I'm not actually asking about religion. How do you come up with your conscience? Some atheists say that knowing what's good or bad can be a product of evolution and that it's imprinted already in the genes. Theists say that God is the basis of what's good, so by that you also get a definition for what's not good. Some philosophers say that it's a product of time and it's by instinct.

I just wanna what people's thoughts are about this. Where does your definition of morality come from?

My opinion is that no act committed in the name of religion can be morally "good".

What I mean is that if you follow a religion, then you obey the dictates of that religion without question, and you act according to the rules of that religion, again without question. If a religion tells you to be kind to strangers, then the reason you are kind to strangers is not because you think it is a morally good act, rather you are doing it because the religion tells you to do it.

I suppose there's a distinction in there in that if you choose to follow a religion specifically because of its moral code, then the point doesn't really apply. But generally that isn't the case, people tend to follow a religion because they have been born into it.

It's the 'question everything' approach really. If you do not constantly critique and evaluate your own behaviour, then you can't perform a morally good act. If you don't take responsibility for your own actions, and instead defer all meaning to your religion and your god, then any act isn't really 'your' act at all.

I'm kinda leaning on that view as well. Though some arguments indicate that without God, or the bible, or the quran, you won't have a basis as to what good or bad is. I kinda got confused with that argument but I'd be happy to try and understand it. I think you don't need to have any external basis. What's hurts you is not good, therefore you shouldn't bestow that upon other people. I think the many of the early humans understood that even before being introduced to any religion.

The other point about religion, that I forgot to add, is that if your religion tells you to act in a certain way that you think is morally good, then there's no way to separate out whether you are doing that act because it is inherently good to do so, or whether you are doing it in expectation of future reward from your religion.

For example, if Christianity defines something as good behaviour, and further says that after death only good people get to go to heaven whereas bad people suffer eternal torment in hell, then are you performing the act because it is good, or because you want to go to heaven and avoid hell? This is why a religious person can't be good - it's too tied-in to expectation of future personal reward/punishment.

But if you don't follow a religion, then you stand on your own, and you act without expectation of any future positive or negative impact on yourself.

If the outcome of the debates does not include enhancing love for God and people, then the debates are wrong.

8)

First of all, many philosophers and atheists do not understand that God is the source of all creation, life and love.
God is behind all natural laws, he is the creator of mathematics, physics, science etc.
In the end, God is also the source of ethics and morality, which are unchanging and absolute.
People can create only temporary moral which cannot stand the test of time.
Religion is merely an intermediary between God and men.
And as someone has well noted, what is most fundamental is that God is love and our Heavenly Parent.
God's love was his motivation for creation and the absolute morality he gave us as a guide to life.

Well most of them have no problem with enhancing love for other people as one aspect of morality. They differ largely though when it comes to love of God. We know there more than a thousand religions and a handful of major ones. For the people who believe that religion is the basis of morality, how do one assure himself that his religion is the true basis and not the others?

Conscience comes from your schooling and your self learning.
Religion too is a learning but it doesn't purely teach about deciding what is right or wrong but states what's right and what's wrong. Which is a form of brainwashing.
A brainwashed mind can't make an unbiased decision.
I don't mean everyone needs to dump their religion but when it comes to making a decision, be neutral and don't get influenced by your religion.

Religion must be rational, how can you be religious while your own mind does not say yes about it. When someone successfully debates your religion, does he say That your religion is wrong, and he said as it is based on a variety of logical propositions, we can see how when Dr Zakir Naik who opened debate with various religions, and He presented various arguments so that many of his opponents became silent without being able to respond.

I think that religion is a good set of rules for the general population and the general population usually is dumb. This is the reason why smart people debate it and go against it because they feel like they have their own morality and can see a difference between good and evil. Then comes a priest and tells them what to do or that they are immoral according to some of his rules. Rules made 2k years ago, rules that sometimes even the priests don't obey.

We don't need religion to be good and moral but if you are lost and find it difficult to function in society maybe religion is the way to go. People who need guidance will find religion helpful and those who don't can do without it.

They have a valid argument but we have to respect both opinions.
If someone believes on something we cannot stop to respect that. If there are records that God existed many decades ago, we have to consider them as an argument from the side who support the religion.

They also a human same like you so they are nothing more than you in the view of God,so just do what you think and be good for you and others.Religion is for people not to control anyone from their comfort zone.

I am no expert but considering that people seem to have certain common values despite differing religion/culture, I believe we have some sort of internal moral compass. How that is expressed is then affected by culture, for example how some cultures put more emphasis on honor, etc.

For me, there is no such thing as right and wrong when it comes to morality; there is simply accepted and unaccepted.

Each individual will determine for themselves what they will or won't accept, and will base their actions accordingly. Society, religion, culture, upbringing, environment, laws, individual traits and even current state of mind will all influence what an individual will perceive as acceptable.

As such morality is both subjective and relative.

Do you really think it's okay for each person to determine for themselves what is moral and what is not?
Personally, I think there needs to be some social consensus on what is acceptable and what is not, otherwise we will have chaos and clutter in society.
And I agree that human morality is relative and changeable but God's morality is absolute and unchangeable, and therefore more reliable.

This is true. And all people have reasonably correct morality written on their hearts. But when they deviate from the correct morality in themselves, they show that they are corrupted liars.

8)

God made the universe including the earth. What does He do for people, partially to show them His love?:
Consider religion. James 1:27"So you see? True and pure religion goes above and beyond simple morality. It goes into extending one's self into loving and helping those in need.

8)

I'm not only saying that it's okay, I'm saying that the bulk of individuals on the planet already make this determination for themselves based on factors I outlined in my previous post.

We already have a number of social consensus's on what is acceptable; laws and religion are two of the more dominant examples. Laws will differ from state to state and country to country, while religion will differ from person to person. Both will evolve or change over time to suit societal needs. This leaves no absolute common ground on which to form a solid consensus on what is right and wrong.

As an atheist, I can't agree with the last part of your last sentence. If you base your God's morality on any religious scripture, then you're basing it on morality of the human(s) who transcribed/wrote it at the time.

^^^... except when they were instructed what to write by God.     8)

Religion and morality, funny topic, when you include government and rules all that became hilarious.
In some countries and religions it`s not moral and legal to have more then one wife, but there are countries where that`s ok. When you think about that, sexuality, religions, government laws, this world is really messed up.
Same is with smoking weed. In some countries and religions it`s forbidden, in some it`s ok. How to talk about drugs then? Can we talk about it, or its forbidden?
In my opinion there is just one wrong thing, it`s to physically hurt others. Except in one case, when someone want`s that, BDSM. So its logical to assume that I think that religions are mostly wrong, government`s too. Entire society have wrong foundations.
But one day people will evolve, all this will be history. Same as we read now about stone age, about kings and slaves, some people will read about this times and they will think how it`s possible that people live under this conditions and they didn`t rise earlier to make changes.

^^^ People never evolve except locally for a generation or two. But in the long run, people always DEVOLVE. Things are going to get worse.

8)

It`s like some rule, it need to get worse before its get better for everyone. We have some stupid system that last for centuries, in these systems nobody is free, and that`s a huge problem.
It explains your opinion thou. Generation or two accept the current state, next generation despise it and they wish something else, rebel generation.

BADecker do you know what you need to be happy and fulfilled?

Immersion within the Shekhinah - http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13537-shekinah.

8)

Some of those names sound familiar. Haven't following them but yes, those people you mentioned tend to be outspoken secularists. I believe most of them are atheists, Dawkins definitely, not sure about Peterson.

We need to understand that since they don't believe in any deity, it's going to affect their views of the source of morality, which is why most of them point to an innate biological origin. I don't think debates between them and religious folks are going to end well, completely different worldviews.

Ok, and how do you plan to achieve that? Trough prayers, meditation of some kind, some drugs? Or you plan to live like they say you need to live to be able to achieve that in some point?

To be honest I started to read your link and after few lines my head wanted to explode. Its too complicated to catch who is who there, which languages are used to explain certain terms, words, I don`t know how to explain the mess I see there.

I like other kind of literature, I will share something with you:

 “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.”

 “The more a thing tends to be permanent, the more it tends to be lifeless.”

 “No one is more dangerously insane than one who is sane all the time.”

It`s Alan Watts. Its something I can relate too. And to not forget I still expect you to answer me how you plan to  "get to" or "achieve " Shekhinah". I hope that answer isn`t to private.

I could answer your question with one word... Die.
Or I could add a few more words to it... Die believing in Jesus salvation.
Or I could go into the whole story of God and Satan and the fall and the salvation of Jesus and the New Universe talked about in Isaiah and the destruction of this universe (the lake of fire... Revelation). But you can read the Bible for all that info, yourself.

Alan Watts succeeded in starting a very noble account of the spiritual way things exist. But if he had believed any of it, he could have made it into a Christian document second only to the Bible, itself.

What was his writing called again? Oh yeah. "Myth and Ritual in Christianity." I'm sure you can find a copy of it on the Net somewhere. Or do you have it?

8)

Ideally every religion supposedly emphasises on morality and poses a standard that is morally sound to their individual religious approval. However, the challenge arises from the practices of their followers forsaking the moral principles taught and twisting them to justify their immoral action.

That's your point of view.
Do you think that we are in a worst situation that many years ago where you can die if a mosquito had bited you? I wonder in what society you live in and you say that things are getting worse...

Religion does NOT have a monopoly, but it certainly can help, unfortunately in some aspects it can also harm and leave people misled in darkness.

So, as everything in life, it depends. It doesn't even depend on the religion, but on the person.

People can still die of mosquito bites.

Now, people don't die from being thrown from a horse as much, but they die in car accidents a whole lot more.

All people live in hope. People of the past lived in hope just as much as people of the present.

People from 7 thousand years ago lived longer than 900 years at times. Check the Septuagint.

The devolution we have is caused in part by environment. But it is also caused by moral depravity. This depravity is being corrected by religion, somewhat. But devolution is causing religion to become ignored more and more.

8)

Informal religion has a monopoly in the lives of everyone:
So, everything in life depends on the person's religion, because God controls everything in life based on His desires, and how the person's individual religion conforms to His desires.

8)

Every Religin had their own set of beliefs so it was not surprising that their arguments are both valid. You should not argue with other religion in terms of what is right and wrong because first of all different religion arise because of diffirent beliefs and perceptions. In terms of Morality and Religion, Religion does manipulate the Morality for it limits the persons decision because there was a supreme being that is going to judge them in their actions. In my opinion, Religion isn't important, what important is the Spirituality.

I too have the same thinking. A person lives through his religion, soon after the birth of a child, he/she gets baptized which is the initial point. From there onwards we are into the hands of God. We desire for something, and we strive hard to get it. Same time one next to us doesn't have a desire but he gets what we desire for. This is how God makes us strong in all ways and gives us when we hardly need it.

In a common law (lore) court in the USA, whatever anybody says is true. If there are differences, the court is there to find out which truth is reality.

8)

we all have different views and beliefs depending on how we were raised but the ultimate religion lies in how we perceive things as right or wrong. Religion is not there to control but to guide and redirect your opinions.

How we know the truth if they believe that they beliefs was true? In fact, they have different beliefs but they have different think that they say the truth even in others was not. How we can say who is the true and who is not if a person have different beliefs? How the argument work?

That is what the court does... finds the truth. Once it is adjudicated by the jury, the answer the jury gives is the final answer. But...

While a jury verdict in a common law court can't be changed, somebody can bring up a different question that is similar to the first, and essentially makes the first verdict of no effect depending on the new question ruling with a new jury.

In addition, if somebody thinks the jury members acted wrongfully (in bad faith), he can take them to court individually and get damages. But he better be right, because if he loses, his damages and fines will increase.

    8)

Unchanging?

When was the last time you stoned to death a waitress who served you coffee after your Sunday mass?  

Or killed gays when you saw them in the street?

If we only knew what that unchanging morality is.  LOL.

3000+ examples and counting.

Morality is created by culture and is temporal.  What is moral in one culture is obscene in another and vice versa.
What was once considered moral in Christianity/Judaism/Islam is no longer moral today. Slavery, stoning people to death, etc.

God is a man-made construct to help you cope with the challenges in life.  

A self-deluding psychological trick to help you survive in the complex world.

Your idea that God is a man-made construct is simply you making yourself into a god... a man-made construct.

8)

Read the Bible, before you open your ignorant mouth.  

Bible endorses slavery, killing gays, stoning people who work on the Sabbath to death.  

This book was written by ancient people, for ancient people.

Nobody obeys the moral rules in this book, except for the ISIS fighters.

Mic drop.

Read the Bible, before you open your ignorant mouth.

The New Testament, which is for all people today, endorses none of the things you say, above.

But you know this already. The only reason why you fight saying the truth, is because you are generally rebellious against God, your maker.

8)

Are the 10 commandments given by God to all people?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKXZ8KuvY7E

Indeed, they are never going to agree. I don't really understand why science vs religion is even a thing. They are completely different, you can't reconcile the two.
Science means theories backed up by hard evidence. It's another word for truth, really, or the best human approximation we have to truth.
Faith is just a belief that isn't backed up by evidence.

This is why science is developing and expanding, and religion is shrinking. It used to be that religion explained everything. But over the centuries sciene has provided better and better explanations for more and more things. Religion shrinks, it is simply a name for the science that hasn't yet been discovered.

The essence of the Ten Commandments as they are written in the hearts of all people are given to all people.

The official Ten Commandments as they are given in the Bible, were given only to the Ancient Israel people. However, anyone can commit to obeying them.

8)

Formal science is a limited view of the science that God made. In some cases it might be a detailed view of certain tiny aspects of the science God made. In many theoretical cases, it is a wrong view, because other attached parts of God-science are not considered.

8)

So the Bible was not written for you or any other American Christian lunatic.

No, the whole Bible was written for everybody. The way it was given to whom it was given shows what parts of it are a law for which people, and which peoples parts of it are not a law for.

The New Testament is law for everybody. But it is a law of love and salvation faith for everybody. In it is found freedom. But such freedom only remains if there is faith and love.

8)

Science is truth determined through reason and acquisition of evidence. God is the collective term for the science we haven't discovered yet. Maybe there are some things that are forever beyond human understanding, maybe we'll never understand exactly how our universe came into being - but that's a limitation of human understanding, it doesn't imply the existence of God.

Science is extremely limited truth, plus the acknowledgement of not being sure of anything (science theory).

Let God show us the great truths that science will never be able to figure out on its own.

8)

Hmm, so you decide which laws apply to you, and which do not?  What ingenious algorithm do you use, round-robin cherry-picking?
 
You are a joke.

Slavery is wrong, always was, and always will be.  

The morality in the Bible is abhorrent.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1367154.0

No, slavery wasn't and isn't always wrong. Why do you want to take away the freedom of people so much? Do you think that they are making such a big mistake by using their freedom to voluntarily go into slavery, that you just have to save them from their wrong thinking, before they hurt themselves? So you want to bind people into your slavery by not allowing them to voluntarily go into slavery.

You slaver, you.

The Bible is about Jesus salvation. Nobody is forcing you into salvation. Everybody is allowing you to freely go into the slavery of eternal destruction. But you want to make everybody go into the slavery of destruction, by preaching that the Bible is bad.

You hypocritical slaver, you.

8)

Slavery is and always was wrong.  Your moral compass is broken.

People who know that slavery is wrong are better than your Yahweh. 

You, however, are a sadistic piece of shit, just like your Yahweh.

Well, thank you for admitting you are a wrongdoer. There are a lot of people who won't admit it, especially when they do the wrong they talk against... like you doing slavery, or at least attempted slavery.

8)

The greatest strength of science is the admission of when things are wrong. Science is the bedrock of proven facts that underpins the modern world. And science also contains theories and hypotheses that might be true and might not, but just need more evidence to determine either way. If it's wrong, it's wrong, and science will move in a new direction.

One thing I find really distasteful about religion is the absolute unquestioning moral certainty. It's like a kid saying something and then rather than hear a rebuttal just sticking their hands over their ears and singing 'la la la I can't hear you'.

We should question everything.

Religion questions nothing. It is certainty handed to you on a plate. You are explicitly told not to question it.

You are mixing real science (reality) with the science that scientists express.

8)

Moral is a set of values that contain rules, ways of life, customs, and institutions that are influenced by socio-cultural values and of individuals or groups of society. These regulations contain good and bad standards of human behavior in the eyes of the surroundings. Meanwhile, religion is a system that regulates the order of faith (belief) and worship of Almighty God and the rules that relate to human relations and humans.
the two are connected to each other so they are inseparable.

There's a distinction? Science is specifically the results that scientists express. Sure there are unproven theories, that's how science progresses, by having ideas and then testing them. Established science means established facts. If the theory is disproven, then science heads off in a different direction, always on the search for more facts.

It sure does. Religion is for bloodthirsty psychopaths.

https://i.ibb.co/3c4jtgZ/Bible-kiils.jpg

The Bible commands nobody to do any of those things listed in that picture. How do we know? Those commands were given to one country, to Ancient Israel. Ancient Israel isn't around today. But, when Ancient Israel was commanded, it was for beneficial things, like ridding the earth of the ungodly people. Ancient Israel didn't carry out their marching orders very well, so we have multitudes of liars, like you, around today.

The New Testament is for people today, and it has none of those directions/instructions for people of today. Why not? Because Ancient Israel didn't do the job that they were supposed to do, so God has found something else that works better... preaching.

8)

And who wrote (or inspired) the OT?  According to your own mythology, it was Jesus himself (as he, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are the same entity).  What does it tell you about God's (Jesus') character?

Killing children?  C'mon, Hitler was more selective in his killing than your Jesus character.

You seem to forget this part. You are enjoying an evening at home with your children and your wife. Some thugs crash the door down, tie you up, and proceed to rape and torture your wife and kids right in front of your eyes, for hours, before they finally murdered them.

Obviously you are tied up, so you can't do anything. So, you say, "Good work guys. I enjoyed the show," right? You would be happy if some thugs did such to your family, right?

Isn't it more likely that if you survived the ordeal, that you would work with law enforcement as hard as you could, to track those guys down to see justice done to them? And if you had the opportunity to literally punish some of them yourself with your fists... or maybe a baseball bat... wouldn't you do it?



God made the world and people out of love. Everything He did to punish evil people, he did because they were torturing and murdering His children. His law enforcement was Ancient Israel, some of whom were tortured and murdered by the evil thugs of the day.

And here you go, being a hypocrite about the things that God does, and becoming one of the evil thugs thereby. Be happy and be afraid, that God in his mercy and patience regarding you, allows you to live a little longer so that you have a chance to turn to Jesus-salvation.

8)

Have you completely lost your marbles?  We are talking about killing children who cursed or disobeyed their parents.

Your God/Jesus is a bloodthirsty psychopath.  If some politician would come up with a bill that outlined to kill people for the reasons specified in the Bible, he or she would be asked to undergo a psychiatric evaluation.

Are you even reading my posts?

How in the world goofy are you. All of a sudden you start talking about children, and then say that that's what we were talking about all along. You're about as nutty as they get. But that might be acceptable, if you weren't such a liar.

8)

You need to read more. Write less.

Quit being so moral. You are starting to sound religious.     8)

It's impossible to be morally good if you are religious. If you perform what you think is a good act, how can you separate out whether A) you did it because it was the right thing to do, B) you did it because God wants you to do stuff like that and you want to please God, or C) you did it because you want to go to heaven so you have to obey God's laws.

Every 'good' act a religious person performs is because of B and C. Sure there may be a bit of A in there as well, but how can you really know that?

Non-religious people may also perform some good acts for selfish reasons. But they can also perform truly good or altruistic acts with no consideration of reward or benefit for themselves - religious people can't do that.

In Jesus's parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-46), He talks about the good things that people do, and the results of their doings regarding salvation. So, on the outside of it, it looks like people are saved by the good that they do. So, what is all this talk about being saved by faith and not works?

When you think about it, you will realize that nobody is 100% good, and nobody is 100% evil, regarding the things they do. Some of the goats will be nearly 100% good, and some of the sheep will be nearly 100% bad. So, what is Jesus really talking about? Here's what.

Saint Paul says (Romans 14:23) that everything that does not come from faith (in Jesus salvation) is sin. So, the good that the goats do is still sin, even if a particular goat looks almost 100% good. This means that even a sheep that looks almost 100% bad has his sins forgiven in Jesus, just to be a sheep. So his bad is gone, and all that God sees is his good.

8)

I am 1000% better than your God/Jesus/Horus or whichever mythological character you believe in.

https://i.ibb.co/Z8Rcvws/Jesus-Horus.jpg

Not acknowledging God is sin... just as St. Paul says in the reference I showed you above. Your pic shows that even the ancient Egyptians acknowledged God, even though they didn't understand Him correctly. Therefore, you have no good in you, and will have no good until you change and start to acknowledge God.

9)

Sure. No problem.  Make it a cardinal sin. LOL. 

Mythology is mythology.

No, it's a sin because the knowledge of God is available throughout nature. Machines have makers.

The idea that God does not exist is mythology, and a sin, because it is easy to see machine nature all around us.

8)

There were over 3000+ Gods in human history.  Yours is not that special.  It is in the same bucket as the rest of them.

Christianity, Islam, Judaism are mythologies.  None of them are based on historical figures.  They all start with the same God and Moses as the main characters. Enough said.

If you don't think these are mythologies, you need to research it.  All historians agree that Moses was not a historical figure.
All three religions are fairy tales, written to control people.

PS. Look up the definition of mythology.
https://www.google.com/search?q=mythology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mythology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_mythology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

No. Those were gods, not God.

Many groups of people and individuals understood God without the Bible, because they understood through their spirits some of the words of the Bible that they had not seen biblically.

There were also angels, people and myths that were considered to be gods by some people.

The God of the universe Who is a spirit, and Creator Controller of all things, that is God but not a god. If one of the more-than-3000 gods are portrayed like that in the writings about him, without portraying wrong things about him, then they are referring to God, as well.

The best bet for talking about God is to use the way He is described in the Bible.

8)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mythology

Read more, write less.

Think a little, rather than simply believing Wikipedia quacks.     8)

I do disagree profoundly with you about religion and God, but I'll admit I'm not an expert on the nuances of Christianity. Could you help me on one point? I had always thought a big part of Christianity is that those who aren't Christians are condemned to hell. Have I misunderstood? Is it a fact of Christianity that your soul can still be saved and you can still go to heaven just through being a good person, even if you're not a Christian?

You are correct. Those who are not Christians are condemned to Hell. The question revolves around what it takes to be a Christian. There are 3 basic places where Christianity is found (Jesus is the Christ.). But only one of them is clearly understood. It's really the only one to work with for people who want to be Christians. I will place it in #3, below:

1. Not clear. In the Garden of Eden, after Adam and Eve had sinned, remember how God was walking in the Garden in the cool of the day? Adam and Eve hid themselves. God is a Spirit, so how could He walk in the Garden? It was Jesus that was walking. This conforms with the Old Testament term, "Angel of the Lord," which is understood by many (most?) Bible scholars to be Jesus preincarnate. The Angel of the Lord is found throughout the O.T.  Google "preincarnate."

2. Not clear. Most people understand the idea of a embryo/fetus/new-born to be innocent. To understand what Jesus has to do with this, we need to understand that Jesus has all authority in Heaven and Earth (Matthew 28:18), and that it was He who put us together in Mommy's tummy (Psalm 139:13) because He has all authority. Since Jesus is the salvation, the embryo/fetus/new-born knows nothing other than Jesus, since he/she is in formation by Jesus, the Christ. The new embryo/fetus/new-born is automatically a Christian, but he/she will probably lose the memory of it when learning the many things of the world in later life. In addition, a forceful spirit might reject Jesus at a very early age.

3. Clear. The New Testament, particularly the Gospels; the deep explanations of parts of the Gospels are found in the Epistles.

Obviously, what I have written here is very brief. So, realize that you might have slightly different understandings of what I have written. Of course, Solomon says, "The more the words, the less the meaning." So, brevity might be the best thing.

8)

I agree, everyone has a unique perspective based on their own individual knowledge and personal experiences. This knowledge and experience is subjective due to the numerous variances that help shape and mold the human Psyche. Through the eyes of another, definitions and interpretations tend to vastly change, for example: "One mans trash, is another mans treasure. One mans pain, is another mans pleasure."
   Religion or better said, spirituality often becomes mans basic necessity, it gives man a sense of self, a feeling that maybe the life he lives and experiences is actually bigger than just himself. Religions can be dogmatic when taken to the extreme of course, but the underline principal is that religions contain basic morals & ethics that a religious follower can aspire to live by.

Hypothetically speaking for arguments sake

Example: In the religions of Catholicism and also Judaism, there exists a set of 10 basic commandments followers must adhere to.

10 Commandments

1.“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
2.“Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
3.“Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”
4.“Honor thy father and mother.”
5.“Thou shalt not kill.”
6.“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
7.“Thou shalt not steal.”
8.“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
9.“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
10.“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

Now, looking at religion through an outsiders perspective, the Commandments 1 - 3 might seem a bit absurd, especially to an atheist, while commandments 4 - 10 seem like basic codes and tenants any man regardless of their race, political affiliations, gender, sexuality, religious doctrine, or creed could live by.

Saint Paul said, Galatians 5:14:(Commandments 4 - 10).

But Jesus says that you are to love God above all things (Commandments 1 - 3), and then your neighbor as yourself (Commandments 4 - 10). Why the difference?

Because when Jesus died on the cross for all people, taking away the sins of all, He made God into family. It's not that God isn't God any longer. It's simply that God has become a neighbor, through the death and resurrection of Jesus.

8)

I still stand by my position that it's impossible to perform a morally good act if you're religious.
An atheist can perform an act of kindness without any expectation of reward.
A Christian knows that if they perform a good act, it gets them a step closer to heaven. If there is a guaranteed reward for being good, how can you separate goodness from self-interest?

Not really. Take #5 for example, 'Thou shalt not kill' applies only to members of your own tribe...

Man: 'I want to kill someone, is that okay?'
God: 'Is he from your own tribe?'
Man: 'Nah.'
God: 'Go for it. You have my blessing.'

https://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Thou_shalt_not_kill_only_applies_to_members_of_your_own_tribe

You would be right if the commands and many more like them were not written in the depths of our hearts. If we don't know it, it's only because they have been covered by layers of "brainwashing."

8)

Me again, replying to you on what feels like every single thread on the forum  :)

I think the inherent desire, in the depths of our hearts as you put it, to do good and to be a moral person is a wonderful thing. You don't need God for that though.

If you are a good person and you believe in God, then you're doing yourself a disservice. It's not because of God that you are good, it's all you.

- Except that the nature of everything is that we need God to even live;
- We are never sure if a good thing we are doing is really the good that God originally placed into our hearts when He built us;
- It's our failure to do good that makes us need God's Jesus-salvation;
- We need God's help to protect us from the temptation to step out of goodness.

Think about this. In the things we are capable of doing, we always do whatever we want to do. Obviously, if it's a thing that we can't do - like literally jumping to the moon with our own legs - we won't do it. But let's say it's something bad, like cheating on our spouse, or robbing a bank that we are capable of robbing. If we want to do it, we will do it. If we don't do it, it's because we wanted something else more. We always do what we want to do... sin or not.

The temptation thing is directed by God. God "penetrates" way beyond the depths of the microcosm, and fills the macrocosm. He is everywhere. Knowing this opens up a whole lot of questions about why things don't operate differently in the universe. Nobody can answer all those questions, but some of us can answer some of the basics.

8)

Many devout religious lunatics die right this minute.

Many Atheists continue to live without God, quite happily I might add.

Your conjecture does not make any sense.

Just because you believe in some crazy blood mythology about some ancient salvation through one particular crucifixion,
it does not make it true.  

The opposite is likely true, your position is unsupported by any evidence, it is a personified wish list of hopes and dreams.

You are good because you are good, regardless of what you believe.  The same goes for being bad.

The thread title is Religion and Morality.
I think morality is the important word here. I don't believe in God, but if I had to choose between the two I'd go for everyone being morally good, rather than everyone not believing in God.
I accept that belief in God can be useful to help certain people through life.

Morality is the important bit though, however you arrive at it.

There is no religion in the world that if you follow it would make you a good moral person in the 21st century.

All of them are loaded with misogyny, discrimination, sadistic punishments, instilling fear and enslaving people both psychologically and financially.

All of them are preoccupied with sex and power. 

Morality is constantly changing, it cannot be anchored to a book unless this book is for one specific culture and is constantly being updated.

Mostly uneducated, gullible people follow religions.

This is indeed a basic problem of Chrsitianity. The bible, particularly OT, is a guide on how to live in a tribe in the middle-east a couple of millennia ago. It may contain what they thought at the time were universal truths, but some of them look really f***ing sadistic to modern eyes.

Everyone is religious. People are religious beings. Much of science is religious activity. Check the whole definition - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t

8)

So what?  It does not change the fact that God aka Jesus depicted in the Bible was a sadistic, misogynic, serial killer.

What does science have to do with the Bible?  We are talking about the insane morality of the Abrahamic religions.

You are wrong. You are talking about Satan and people. Jesus is the essence of life. He arose from the dead.

8)

Did you not read the Bible?  Why are you denying what Jesus wrote in the Old Testament?

Most vile, sadistic rules ever imagined. Evil in its purest form.

We have the exact pencil and piece of parchment He used to write the O.T.  What are you even yammering about?

Not only are you biting the hand that feeds you, but you are biting the holy God Who made you, and keeps you alive. Since you are that wicked and evil, you are like a plague that needs to be eradicated before you infect others. It will happen to you in God's time. After all, God is healing the world by getting rid of diseases like you. So, we all hope that you change before He has to get rid of you.

I mean, that's what He had to do in Bible times to the diseases that wouldn't change.

8)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1367154.0

Your Jesus is as pure and unadulterated evil as they come.

If you think any rules in the Bible are remotely justified, you are an evil person.

"God is healing the world..."  WTF does this mean? 

Giving HIVs to babies in Africa?  Making babies born with genetic disorders?

There is no God you FUCKING retard.

I am done talking to you.

Listen to yourself. You are right on the border of going crazy mad. Relax, man.

You know, it's probably good that you are done talking to me. Even quiet cancer in the body isn't attacked by the immune system with the vigor that a wildly active cancer will be.

If you don't get too raving boisterous against God, He just might give you longer time to repent.

God is loving. He is always slightly in a quandary about how much time to give people to repent. I mean, he doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. And He is trying hard to reduce the punishment for those who DO go to Hell. So, if you are less active against Him, you don't have as much to pay for in Hell if you die today. But if you get wildly active in your anti-God approach, and He sees that there is little chance that you will repent, he might let you die young, so you don't have so much to pay for in Hell.

I don't know what God will do in your case. Only He can judge what is best for you. Maybe you are on the edge of repentance without even knowing it. So He might let you go on living, all the while trying to tease a change of heart out of you. But, He might see that you are so adamantly against Him, that it is definitely the best move to let you go now.

So, it's probably best that you are done talking about this kind of stuff to me.

8)

It is a fucking myth.  Nothing will happen to me or you.  You are truly retarded.  Beyond any help.

https://i.imgur.com/bp8OwaE.jpg

Now relax, man. Is there anything that you don't know? Be honest, now. There are lots of things that you don't know. Maybe God is on Jupiter. Be humble. You don't know that God doesn't exist. Whisper a little, because He might be listening to everything you say against Him.

8)

That is true.  But the probability of any Gods described in the Abrahamic religions exist is pretty much zero.

They deserve no attention or worship even if they exist.

Mythology is mythology.

BTW, I don't know many things but I don't invent answers, I just admit I don't know.

I agree with all this. God is indeed, as in Dawkins's memorable quote 'the most unpleasant character in all of fiction'.
But we can't prove a negative, we can't prove to believers that God doesn't exist.
So my position is more, okay, say God exists and is really performing all this evil crap, should you really worship someone like that?

You know what gets my blood going is when people insist that the Bible was written by this loving, all-knowing 'God'.
Anyone who actually read this thing will know it is an ancient work of literature, in the same genre as Oddysey and Illiad.
It has ancient mythology written all over it.

https://i.imgur.com/rq8GeRw.jpg

Totally true about bible then and now. Anything in the bible that is disproven by science, or offensive to modern morality, the stock response is oh yeah that bit is a metaphor.

For me,  the idea of religion is very much based on your conscience. Your perception of right and wrong. Religion though is said to be based on faith does very much relies on a persons conscience. This is what determines for good morals which is adviced and thought in every religion.

People are religious beings. Our religion is our attempt to work with the future, a thing that we know imperfectly, and that we really don't know anything about.

If we didn't have the idea religion built right into us, we would operate our lives in fear of the unknown. The orderliness of aspects of the universe gives us hope that things will work out well for us. If we have no other religion, then this is our religion. Often we want more than something as simple as orderliness.

8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

No contradictions. Simply lack of context.     8)

I think that all religions have been created due to the fact that people are afraid of dead.
Believing in something makes us think that there is another world on the "other side" and our relatives are waiting with our God.
There is not any scientific proof what happens after death.

There isn't any proof, scientific or otherwise, that science will always be able to even touch everything... to say nothing about proving it.

The evidence for this is that science hasn't been able to readily find or conduct experiments on the soul. But we are getting closer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xeh001ptDgo.

8)

When was last time religion found any evidence of anything?  
At least with science, you can see its usefulness.  Progress is made, the quality of our lives is improved.

Why do we even have religions?  What are they good for?

PS. Harry Potter books are not evidence of Harry Potter's existence.

You talk so silly. The science religion you adore is finding new stuff all the time. Most of the formal religions have found some of the basics already. Science often tries to ignore the basics because it isn't smart enough to see that religion has it right.

8)

All your nonsensical posts stem from the fact that you don't know what science is.

So said^^ by the science-religion guy who doesn't even realize that atheism is only his religion.

     8)

The scientific method will always be better than faith in discovering the truth.  You would not know it because you do not understand what science is and how science operates.

It is not the label that matters, what epistemic tools it provides is far more important.

My point exactly! You have faith in scientists and the media, that what they tell you is the truth, and that they discovered the truth by scientific methods. Do you have proof that they are telling you the truth? Did you watch them do their scientific methods. If you only read about it in their white papers, did you really understand what you were reading? If you understood it, did you do the tests to make sure that they were right? Or did you just believe it out of faith?

The Bible has all kinds of morality written into it. And it has punishment written in, for those who don't keep the morality. And it is the record of what happened to those who didn't keep the morality and what happened to those who did. And it shows how God both punishes those who disobey, and rewards those who obey, and how those who are repentant find Jesus-salvation.

The point is, people have faith all over the place in this life. Nothing that anyone does is ever done without at least a little bit of faith.

God is shown to exist in the machinery of the universe. Machines have makers. The highest and best morality is to honor and respect God since we have been made by Him. Since we live by faith, we have religion. The religion of honoring God is the best morality that we can have.

So, have you done all the experiments that you believe in? Or are you only trusting that others aren't lying to you? Be moral and tell us the truth, now.

8)

If you use the same measuring tape (scientific method) it does not matter where in the world you measure a 3' stick, it will still be 3' in length, regardless of where the measurement was taken.

I have conducted many Physics, Biology and Chemistry experiments by myself in my schooling.  Did I verify experimentally every single scientific theory or law?  Of course not, I do not need to.  I can look at the results the scientists produced and I rely on the verification by other scientists.  At no point, I have faith in any scientific results.  That is the point of science, you don't need faith when you have facts.

But you would know this because you were inoculated to science early on in your homeschooling if you have any schooling at all.

Your faith is in the other scientists. However, if you have faith that a 3' stick will remain 3' wherever in the world you measure it, you are having faith in God that He is holding physics in place. So, your faith isn't in the facts. It is in God that He will maintain the facts as facts.

We are finding that standard vaccines are producing more of the disease that they are supposed to be inoculating against. Check all the posts in the vaccine threads to find the links to the evidence and proof. So, I guess being inoculated to science means that I have more of it.

8)

You cannot have faith in facts.  You have faith when you don't have facts.

I trust scientists to produce objective results.  Why? Because their results can be verified.  No scientist can put out bullshit and not be challenged.

I don't get it that this simple concept is so hard for you to understand.

Scientists are challenged all the time. What do you think a change in their scientific theory is? Have you forgotten that the only fact in a science theory is that it is a theory? The object of the theory isn't a fact. If it were, the theory wouldn't be a theory.

The only reason you understand that you know facts rather than having faith in them, is because I have mentioned it over and over in this forum.

8)

You have said a lot of nonsense on this forum.  Keep them coming.

If all religious blokes are like you, religions will disappear in 2-3 generations.

LOL!



8)

Illiad and Odyssey are still around.  Your point is?

I KNEW you would come around to acknowledging religion sooner or later.

8)

I really don't know what your point is.  The Bible will always be the ancient work of literature that it is.

There will always be book fan clubs reading it and salivating at some of the gruesome parts.

What I am saying is that in 2-3 generations more people will recognize it to be weird, ancient mythology, not much else.

If you read books from Voltaire's time, you will realize how much weight the Bible had in his time vs today.

The impact the Bible once had on society has been diminished as it continues to become irrelevant.

https://barna.imgix.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/z-01.jpg

Yes. The diminishment of religion over the generations is in large part because science advances continually. Religious 'truth' is just a catch-all term for the stuff that science hasn't uncovered yet. As science advances, the unknown gaps (a.k.a. religion) get smaller.

Religion is built into the makeup and the mindset of all people. Even if science was smart enough to understand this today, scientists might not admit it, because they often have a personal religion that wants to know the answer the way they want to know it... rather than what the truth is.

8)

The statistics of how many Bibles there are worldwide, way beyond any works of science, is quite impressive.

The more we delve into the nature of science, the more we praise God that He did it this way.

There have always been people who didn't want to acknowledge God. God will give them what they asked for in the Judgement... no God = Destruction, but...

The death and resurrection of Jesus was the thing that took all the sins of all people for all time. No more sin to punished for. Only gifts according to the faith of the people.

In the Resurrection, everybody will be given a glorified body similar to the Body Jesus received after He arose from the dead. Even the unbelievers will get a glorified body that cannot die.

The believers will get life-with-God that they were asking for - Heaven. The unbelievers will get life-away-from-God that they were asking for - Hell. The everlasting bodies of all of them will keep them alive forever. Even Hell's worst destructive forces will not be able to destroy the life of the unbelievers. But it will be exactly the opposite of fun... staying alive without God.

8)

The number of printed copies does not signify much.  The impact the Bible once had on the societies around the world is waning.

That is an observable fact.  As progressive thought takes over, the biblical wisdom is vehemently rejected.

But progressive thinking without God and the Bible fails. But progressive thinking is better if it has God and the Bible. The Voltaire example shows it. History of nations shows it.

As the numbers of copies of the Bible increase, when are you going to realize that there is God-strength in the Bible? If the Bible didn't have strength, it would be done with.

Consider the holy books of religions other than Judaism and Christianity. They are few in number. Why? Because they don't have the strength of God in them. Even the science-religion books don't come near to the strength of the Bible.

Really, the only reason why solid science is as solid as it is, is because God is making it solid. The reason science theories that are against what God says wind up being foolishness, is because they are against what God says.

There have always been people who have rejected God and the Bible. Most of these are dead. But the Bible and God and the people of God live forever.

8)

This ridiculous cult is force-fed to all uneducated people who do not know which primate family they belong to.

https://i.imgur.com/SwkNgeB.jpg

But your forgot to read the rest of the way, or to get an understanding of circumcision.

Abraham was stopped by God from killing his son. But because Abraham trusted God enough to do it, he was venerated by God, and became the father of many nations and peoples... people too numerous to count.

Actually, circumcision on the eighth day is beneficial for causing the immune system of a male child to become wildly active... far stronger than any of the claims made for vaccination by any of the medical. And there is more wonderful benefit to circumcision that I won't go into here.

So you see, as usual you speak out of ignorance, and show that your ignorance is deluding you into stupidity.

8)

That is simply another of your wild claims.

BTW, circumcision was not started by Jews.  There is physical evidence that Egyptians were practicing it well before written history.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/circumcision

What is next, bloodletting when you get sick to drain the demons out of you?

And we still can't duplicate many of the feats of the ancient Egyptians... at least not with the same kind of primitive methods that they seemed to be using.

Study eighth-day circumcision, and you will find many benefits of it. You speak out of ignorance.

8)

Still, it does not change the fact that Abraham was a schizophrenic who almost killed his son, as the story goes.

There is nothing to study.  Circumcision is bodily mutilation. Perpetuated by primitive people.

I should be thanking you for proving how dumb you are. But I won't, because you are so pitiable.

But, I suppose I should be glad that you at least have religion and morality... well, the religion part, anyway.

8)

^^^ Basic human DNA programming shows that human morals are based on "love your neighbor as yourself." Such is beneficial for all people.

8)

Humans have lived in social groups for a very long time. Altruism evolves through natural selection. Think about it. A proto-human in a forest spots a predator. He has time to warn one of his colleagues. Does he warn the one who is always kind to him, or does he warn the selfish shit who no-one likes? Who dies, who survives to parent the next generation?

I'm simplifying of course, but this is a valid behaviour.

Altruism devolves. All you need to do is look at how the politicians are leaching off the people. Read this to see it plainly - http://stopthepirates.blogspot.com/.

8)

I don't know if you know but in Australia and New Zealand.
 10 to 20% of men are circumcised.
And this is not because there are 10 to 20% of jew ....  those religions are almost nonexistent.
I wouldn't call new zealander or australian primitive

And according to the same source, up to 60% of the american men are also circumcised.
I wouldn't call american primitive people


source : http://www.citymed.co.nz/minor-surgeries/circumcision

And how many of them had a say in the matter? None.

People who self mutilate, or mutilate their children are primitive simpletons.

you clearly didn't check the source.


 I guess you can argue that even as a teenagers they don't really have a choice if they don't want to be seen as un-manly dude.

This is slightly off topic.