Religion and Morality.

[BADecker]

Hey guys. I've been watching a lot of debates on youtube about this topic where theists, apologetics, philosophers, scientists, agnostics and atheists discuss whether religion has a monopoly over what people perceive to be right or wrong. Guys like WLC, Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Frank Turek, Richard Dawkins etc. Go after each other's throats to prove their points and honestly, i think every one of them has a valid argument.

What do you think?

I agree, everyone has a unique perspective based on their own individual knowledge and personal experiences. This knowledge and experience is subjective due to the numerous variances that help shape and mold the human Psyche. Through the eyes of another, definitions and interpretations tend to vastly change, for example: "One mans trash, is another mans treasure. One mans pain, is another mans pleasure."
   Religion or better said, spirituality often becomes mans basic necessity, it gives man a sense of self, a feeling that maybe the life he lives and experiences is actually bigger than just himself. Religions can be dogmatic when taken to the extreme of course, but the underline principal is that religions contain basic morals & ethics that a religious follower can aspire to live by.

Hypothetically speaking for arguments sake

Example: In the religions of Catholicism and also Judaism, there exists a set of 10 basic commandments followers must adhere to.

10 Commandments

1.“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
2.“Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
3.“Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”
4.“Honor thy father and mother.”
5.“Thou shalt not kill.”
6.“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
7.“Thou shalt not steal.”
8.“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
9.“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
10.“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

Now, looking at religion through an outsiders perspective, the Commandments 1 - 3 might seem a bit absurd, especially to an atheist, while commandments 4 - 10 seem like basic codes and tenants any man regardless of their race, political affiliations, gender, sexuality, religious doctrine, or creed could live by.

Saint Paul said, Galatians 5:14:

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

(Commandments 4 - 10).

But Jesus says that you are to love God above all things (Commandments 1 - 3), and then your neighbor as yourself (Commandments 4 - 10). Why the difference?

Because when Jesus died on the cross for all people, taking away the sins of all, He made God into family. It's not that God isn't God any longer. It's simply that God has become a neighbor, through the death and resurrection of Jesus.

[styca]

I still stand by my position that it's impossible to perform a morally good act if you're religious.
An atheist can perform an act of kindness without any expectation of reward.
A Christian knows that if they perform a good act, it gets them a step closer to heaven. If there is a guaranteed reward for being good, how can you separate goodness from self-interest?

[styca]

10 Commandments

1.“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
2.“Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
3.“Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”
4.“Honor thy father and mother.”
5.“Thou shalt not kill.”
6.“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
7.“Thou shalt not steal.”
8.“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
9.“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
10.“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

Now, looking at religion through an outsiders perspective, the Commandments 1 - 3 might seem a bit absurd, especially to an atheist, while commandments 4 - 10 seem like basic codes and tenants any man regardless of their race, political affiliations, gender, sexuality, religious doctrine, or creed could live by.

Not really. Take #5 for example, 'Thou shalt not kill' applies only to members of your own tribe...

Man: 'I want to kill someone, is that okay?'
God: 'Is he from your own tribe?'
Man: 'Nah.'
God: 'Go for it. You have my blessing.'

https://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Thou_shalt_not_kill_only_applies_to_members_of_your_own_tribe

[BADecker]

10 Commandments

1.“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
2.“Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
3.“Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”
4.“Honor thy father and mother.”
5.“Thou shalt not kill.”
6.“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
7.“Thou shalt not steal.”
8.“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
9.“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
10.“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

Now, looking at religion through an outsiders perspective, the Commandments 1 - 3 might seem a bit absurd, especially to an atheist, while commandments 4 - 10 seem like basic codes and tenants any man regardless of their race, political affiliations, gender, sexuality, religious doctrine, or creed could live by.

Not really. Take #5 for example, 'Thou shalt not kill' applies only to members of your own tribe...

Man: 'I want to kill someone, is that okay?'
God: 'Is he from your own tribe?'
Man: 'Nah.'
God: 'Go for it. You have my blessing.'

https://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Thou_shalt_not_kill_only_applies_to_members_of_your_own_tribe

You would be right if the commands and many more like them were not written in the depths of our hearts. If we don't know it, it's only because they have been covered by layers of "brainwashing."

[styca]

Me again, replying to you on what feels like every single thread on the forum 

I think the inherent desire, in the depths of our hearts as you put it, to do good and to be a moral person is a wonderful thing. You don't need God for that though.

If you are a good person and you believe in God, then you're doing yourself a disservice. It's not because of God that you are good, it's all you.

[BADecker]

Me again, replying to you on what feels like every single thread on the forum 

I think the inherent desire, in the depths of our hearts as you put it, to do good and to be a moral person is a wonderful thing. You don't need God for that though.

If you are a good person and you believe in God, then you're doing yourself a disservice. It's not because of God that you are good, it's all you.

- Except that the nature of everything is that we need God to even live;
- We are never sure if a good thing we are doing is really the good that God originally placed into our hearts when He built us;
- It's our failure to do good that makes us need God's Jesus-salvation;
- We need God's help to protect us from the temptation to step out of goodness.

Think about this. In the things we are capable of doing, we always do whatever we want to do. Obviously, if it's a thing that we can't do - like literally jumping to the moon with our own legs - we won't do it. But let's say it's something bad, like cheating on our spouse, or robbing a bank that we are capable of robbing. If we want to do it, we will do it. If we don't do it, it's because we wanted something else more. We always do what we want to do... sin or not.

The temptation thing is directed by God. God "penetrates" way beyond the depths of the microcosm, and fills the macrocosm. He is everywhere. Knowing this opens up a whole lot of questions about why things don't operate differently in the universe. Nobody can answer all those questions, but some of us can answer some of the basics.

[af_newbie]

Me again, replying to you on what feels like every single thread on the forum  

I think the inherent desire, in the depths of our hearts as you put it, to do good and to be a moral person is a wonderful thing. You don't need God for that though.

If you are a good person and you believe in God, then you're doing yourself a disservice. It's not because of God that you are good, it's all you.

- Except that the nature of everything is that we need God to even live;
...

Many devout religious lunatics die right this minute.

Many Atheists continue to live without God, quite happily I might add.

Your conjecture does not make any sense.

Just because you believe in some crazy blood mythology about some ancient salvation through one particular crucifixion,
it does not make it true.  

The opposite is likely true, your position is unsupported by any evidence, it is a personified wish list of hopes and dreams.

You are good because you are good, regardless of what you believe.  The same goes for being bad.

[styca]

The thread title is Religion and Morality.
I think morality is the important word here. I don't believe in God, but if I had to choose between the two I'd go for everyone being morally good, rather than everyone not believing in God.
I accept that belief in God can be useful to help certain people through life.

Morality is the important bit though, however you arrive at it.

[af_newbie]

The thread title is Religion and Morality.
I think morality is the important word here. I don't believe in God, but if I had to choose between the two I'd go for everyone being morally good, rather than everyone not believing in God.
I accept that belief in God can be useful to help certain people through life.

Morality is the important bit though, however you arrive at it.

There is no religion in the world that if you follow it would make you a good moral person in the 21st century.

All of them are loaded with misogyny, discrimination, sadistic punishments, instilling fear and enslaving people both psychologically and financially.

All of them are preoccupied with sex and power. 

Morality is constantly changing, it cannot be anchored to a book unless this book is for one specific culture and is constantly being updated.

Mostly uneducated, gullible people follow religions.

[styca]

Morality is constantly changing, it cannot be anchored to a book unless this book is for one specific culture and is constantly being updated.

This is indeed a basic problem of Chrsitianity. The bible, particularly OT, is a guide on how to live in a tribe in the middle-east a couple of millennia ago. It may contain what they thought at the time were universal truths, but some of them look really f***ing sadistic to modern eyes.

[BADecker]

Everyone is religious. People are religious beings. Much of science is religious activity. Check the whole definition - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t

[af_newbie]

Everyone is religious. People are religious beings. Much of science is religious activity. Check the whole definition - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t

So what?  It does not change the fact that God aka Jesus depicted in the Bible was a sadistic, misogynic, serial killer.

What does science have to do with the Bible?  We are talking about the insane morality of the Abrahamic religions.

[BADecker]

Everyone is religious. People are religious beings. Much of science is religious activity. Check the whole definition - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t

So what?  It does not change the fact that God aka Jesus depicted in the Bible was a sadistic, misogynic, serial killer.

What does science have to do with the Bible?  We are talking about the insane morality of the Abrahamic religions.

You are wrong. You are talking about Satan and people. Jesus is the essence of life. He arose from the dead.

[af_newbie]

Everyone is religious. People are religious beings. Much of science is religious activity. Check the whole definition - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t

So what?  It does not change the fact that God aka Jesus depicted in the Bible was a sadistic, misogynic, serial killer.

What does science have to do with the Bible?  We are talking about the insane morality of the Abrahamic religions.

You are wrong. You are talking about Satan and people. Jesus is the essence of life. He arose from the dead.

Did you not read the Bible?  Why are you denying what Jesus wrote in the Old Testament?

Most vile, sadistic rules ever imagined. Evil in its purest form.

[BADecker]

Everyone is religious. People are religious beings. Much of science is religious activity. Check the whole definition - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t

So what?  It does not change the fact that God aka Jesus depicted in the Bible was a sadistic, misogynic, serial killer.

What does science have to do with the Bible?  We are talking about the insane morality of the Abrahamic religions.

You are wrong. You are talking about Satan and people. Jesus is the essence of life. He arose from the dead.

Did you not read the Bible?  Why are you denying what Jesus wrote in the Old Testament?

Most vile, sadistic rules ever imagined. Evil in its purest form.

We have the exact pencil and piece of parchment He used to write the O.T.  What are you even yammering about?

Not only are you biting the hand that feeds you, but you are biting the holy God Who made you, and keeps you alive. Since you are that wicked and evil, you are like a plague that needs to be eradicated before you infect others. It will happen to you in God's time. After all, God is healing the world by getting rid of diseases like you. So, we all hope that you change before He has to get rid of you.

I mean, that's what He had to do in Bible times to the diseases that wouldn't change.

[af_newbie]

Everyone is religious. People are religious beings. Much of science is religious activity. Check the whole definition - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t

So what?  It does not change the fact that God aka Jesus depicted in the Bible was a sadistic, misogynic, serial killer.

What does science have to do with the Bible?  We are talking about the insane morality of the Abrahamic religions.

You are wrong. You are talking about Satan and people. Jesus is the essence of life. He arose from the dead.

Did you not read the Bible?  Why are you denying what Jesus wrote in the Old Testament?

Most vile, sadistic rules ever imagined. Evil in its purest form.

We have the exact pencil and piece of parchment He used to write the O.T.  What are you even yammering about?

Not only are you biting the hand that feeds you, but you are biting the holy God Who made you, and keeps you alive. Since you are that wicked and evil, you are like a plague that needs to be eradicated before you infect others. It will happen to you in God's time. After all, God is healing the world by getting rid of diseases like you. So, we all hope that you change before He has to get rid of you.

I mean, that's what He had to do in Bible times to the diseases that wouldn't change.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1367154.0

Your Jesus is as pure and unadulterated evil as they come.

If you think any rules in the Bible are remotely justified, you are an evil person.

"God is healing the world..."  WTF does this mean? 

Giving HIVs to babies in Africa?  Making babies born with genetic disorders?

There is no God you FUCKING retard.

I am done talking to you.

[BADecker]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1367154.0

Your Jesus is as pure and unadulterated evil as they come.

If you think any rules in the Bible are remotely justified, you are an evil person.

"God is healing the world..."  WTF does this mean? 

Giving HIVs to babies in Africa?  Making babies born with genetic disorders?

There is no God you FUCKING retard.

I am done talking to you.

Listen to yourself. You are right on the border of going crazy mad. Relax, man.

You know, it's probably good that you are done talking to me. Even quiet cancer in the body isn't attacked by the immune system with the vigor that a wildly active cancer will be.

If you don't get too raving boisterous against God, He just might give you longer time to repent.

God is loving. He is always slightly in a quandary about how much time to give people to repent. I mean, he doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. And He is trying hard to reduce the punishment for those who DO go to Hell. So, if you are less active against Him, you don't have as much to pay for in Hell if you die today. But if you get wildly active in your anti-God approach, and He sees that there is little chance that you will repent, he might let you die young, so you don't have so much to pay for in Hell.

I don't know what God will do in your case. Only He can judge what is best for you. Maybe you are on the edge of repentance without even knowing it. So He might let you go on living, all the while trying to tease a change of heart out of you. But, He might see that you are so adamantly against Him, that it is definitely the best move to let you go now.

So, it's probably best that you are done talking about this kind of stuff to me.

[af_newbie]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1367154.0

Your Jesus is as pure and unadulterated evil as they come.

If you think any rules in the Bible are remotely justified, you are an evil person.

"God is healing the world..."  WTF does this mean? 

Giving HIVs to babies in Africa?  Making babies born with genetic disorders?

There is no God you FUCKING retard.

I am done talking to you.

Listen to yourself. You are right on the border of going crazy mad. Relax, man.

You know, it's probably good that you are done talking to me. Even quiet cancer in the body isn't attacked by the immune system with the vigor that a wildly active cancer will be.

If you don't get too raving boisterous against God, He just might give you longer time to repent.

God is loving. He is always slightly in a quandary about how much time to give people to repent. I mean, he doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. And He is trying hard to reduce the punishment for those who DO go to Hell. So, if you are less active against Him, you don't have as much to pay for in Hell if you die today. But if you get wildly active in your anti-God approach, and He sees that there is little chance that you will repent, he might let you die young, so you don't have so much to pay for in Hell.

I don't know what God will do in your case. Only He can judge what is best for you. Maybe you are on the edge of repentance without even knowing it. So He might let you go on living, all the while trying to tease a change of heart out of you. But, He might see that you are so adamantly against Him, that it is definitely the best move to let you go now.

So, it's probably best that you are done talking about this kind of stuff to me.

It is a fucking myth.  Nothing will happen to me or you.  You are truly retarded.  Beyond any help.

[BADecker]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1367154.0

Your Jesus is as pure and unadulterated evil as they come.

If you think any rules in the Bible are remotely justified, you are an evil person.

"God is healing the world..."  WTF does this mean? 

Giving HIVs to babies in Africa?  Making babies born with genetic disorders?

There is no God you FUCKING retard.

I am done talking to you.

Listen to yourself. You are right on the border of going crazy mad. Relax, man.

You know, it's probably good that you are done talking to me. Even quiet cancer in the body isn't attacked by the immune system with the vigor that a wildly active cancer will be.

If you don't get too raving boisterous against God, He just might give you longer time to repent.

God is loving. He is always slightly in a quandary about how much time to give people to repent. I mean, he doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. And He is trying hard to reduce the punishment for those who DO go to Hell. So, if you are less active against Him, you don't have as much to pay for in Hell if you die today. But if you get wildly active in your anti-God approach, and He sees that there is little chance that you will repent, he might let you die young, so you don't have so much to pay for in Hell.

I don't know what God will do in your case. Only He can judge what is best for you. Maybe you are on the edge of repentance without even knowing it. So He might let you go on living, all the while trying to tease a change of heart out of you. But, He might see that you are so adamantly against Him, that it is definitely the best move to let you go now.

So, it's probably best that you are done talking about this kind of stuff to me.

It is a fucking myth.  Nothing will happen to me or you.  You are truly retarded.  Beyond any help.

https://i.imgur.com/bp8OwaE.jpg

Now relax, man. Is there anything that you don't know? Be honest, now. There are lots of things that you don't know. Maybe God is on Jupiter. Be humble. You don't know that God doesn't exist. Whisper a little, because He might be listening to everything you say against Him.

[af_newbie]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1367154.0

Your Jesus is as pure and unadulterated evil as they come.

If you think any rules in the Bible are remotely justified, you are an evil person.

"God is healing the world..."  WTF does this mean?  

Giving HIVs to babies in Africa?  Making babies born with genetic disorders?

There is no God you FUCKING retard.

I am done talking to you.

Listen to yourself. You are right on the border of going crazy mad. Relax, man.

You know, it's probably good that you are done talking to me. Even quiet cancer in the body isn't attacked by the immune system with the vigor that a wildly active cancer will be.

If you don't get too raving boisterous against God, He just might give you longer time to repent.

God is loving. He is always slightly in a quandary about how much time to give people to repent. I mean, he doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. And He is trying hard to reduce the punishment for those who DO go to Hell. So, if you are less active against Him, you don't have as much to pay for in Hell if you die today. But if you get wildly active in your anti-God approach, and He sees that there is little chance that you will repent, he might let you die young, so you don't have so much to pay for in Hell.

I don't know what God will do in your case. Only He can judge what is best for you. Maybe you are on the edge of repentance without even knowing it. So He might let you go on living, all the while trying to tease a change of heart out of you. But, He might see that you are so adamantly against Him, that it is definitely the best move to let you go now.

So, it's probably best that you are done talking about this kind of stuff to me.

It is a fucking myth.  Nothing will happen to me or you.  You are truly retarded.  Beyond any help.

Now relax, man. Is there anything that you don't know? Be honest, now. There are lots of things that you don't know. Maybe God is on Jupiter. Be humble. You don't know that God doesn't exist. Whisper a little, because He might be listening to everything you say against Him.

That is true.  But the probability of any Gods described in the Abrahamic religions exist is pretty much zero.

They deserve no attention or worship even if they exist.

Mythology is mythology.

BTW, I don't know many things but I don't invent answers, I just admit I don't know.