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ok so the vegans dont like killing or harming of animals

so my question is. what would society look like if we did go full on hippy and not kill harm, cage, trap animals?
meaning no farms, no vets(who gonna pay the bill), no slaughter, no culling, no pest control. just leaving animals to roam free

take human population. each generation is ~20 years and most couples have ~2 kids as replacements for them.
obviously the parents have more than 20 years to live. so 2 become 4 become 6 (grandparents die4, great grandkids born6) become 6again become 8 and so on.. which as we all know causes over population in millenias from caveman times to the future

so with chickens that lay eggs far faster and in more quantity
with dogs an cats having litters of multiple offspring.

obviously with no boundaries no 'cullings' no organised killing and just left to be wild and die naturally.. and breed naturally do vegans actually realise the consequences of wanting to get rid of farming.

do vegans actually know what happens to animals if not taken care of
alot of media has provoked the attention of asian countries 'burning dogs' but what they dont address is the overpopulation of dogs due to the previous era of not controlling the population and allowing dogs to roam free.. in essense the 'roam free, live free' philosophy of groups that vegans pretend to now be before vegan was ven a word. are the very reason for the cause of such provocative media stories recently

in my view the native indians had it right. kill what you need, use every piece of what you kill and respect and control nature around you.

i would love to see vegans reaction if they were suddenly charged a farm tax to look after a cow for a full long life, cover all the vet bills, feed, cremation and such. but where the vegan doesnt get any 'product' out of the extra charge

my main point being
when looking at the damage things like british badgers/foxes.. american coyotes, racoons, australian possums and world wide rats. what would the damage be like if it was ruled out to not slaughter, not cull, not treat them as rodents/pests

Might be unpopular with vegans but if a society is going to go full vegan, there might be a need for a mass culling on the start. Bring the animals' numbers down to something manageable. Then reintroduce predators and they should keep each other in balance.

Personally my concern with domesticated species is that, well, they are domesticated. Sheep for example would grow massive mass of wool if unshorn. Cows are just plain dumb and we bred them that way, same goes for other livestock.

I like your cow idea. It's very "white elephant". Might put them into perspective.

imagine cows breeding uncontrolled, unvaccinated.. all the 'foot and mouth' virus stuff. then imagine a heard stampeding down your street
(imagine a lion king/jumanji scenes of stampedes, but happening in your very street)
just imagine how much damage a cow can do to a car if it was running down a side street and got hit by a car.
are we to just pull the carcus to the roadside and leave it like most people do with dead cats, rabbits, badgers, foxes and pheasants when they get run over.

first of all. as humans we are natural predators on the food chain. we do however kill our feed more quickly, precisely and humanely than say a shark does or a eagle

(take below paragraph with some humour)
separate thoughts
would laws change where they give all animals the same basic life rights as humans. meaning even the insect that eats at a cabbage gets to do so and cause it to rot and be larvee and disease infested
would it be declared murder and a prisonable offence of life in prison for hitting a wild cow that you try to avoid but the cow has other idea's
how about if predetor animals killed other animals. because technically we humans are predators to cows. if a hawk kills a mouse do we then lock up the hawk

funny thing is that vegans will start to come around to the 'its ok if predators kill their feed'.. which brings me back to the point about humans being predators

the problems i see with these new 'trends' of lifestyle choices is that people never really do the research. they just see some emotional youtube video and then start acting and repeating the exact same stance as their inspiration. without going into the deeper thought

Just a point here. Not all vegans are such because of the fact that they care about the animals that are dying. If they were -- they'd have a hard time surviving day to day due to the amount of products that are made with animal byproducts.

Most Vegans are that way due to the health benefits of a Vegan lifestyle -- it's not healthy to eat Steak (we do it), it's not healthy to eat processed meats (we do it), and so on. Most foods that we eat as staples -- think sandwiches, eggs,etc -- just aren't good for you.

The Vegan lifestyle is the healthiest. It truly is.

The damage would be tremendous.
Domestic animals without natural predators would breed extremely fast and fill entire villages&cities with their population.
Not mentioning they would live in pain, since cows for example require milking otherwise they will experience great pain and vegans do not drink dairy products.
We'd be overrun by pigs,sheep and most likely rabbits because of their capacity to breed fast if they could find enough food in urban enviroments.
The biggest populations would probably stick to the countryside but there would be plenty roaming urban centers.

This fortunately will never happen because people like meat.

Ugh.....

Maybe just let the hunters go wild? Let them roam and allow the hunters to shoot.

They wouldn't be able to sustain their population growth even if this was the case, as their wouldn't be enough food for them and humans wouldn't allow them to take their food. That would cause death of the aniamls.

The damage would be annoying, and animal activists groups would be pissed, but it'd be fine.... God I don't know why everyone goes DOOMSDAY on everything these days.

Hey Frank1
This is a very good question.

There are two type of vegans :
The Plant based one, they are "in" for the benefits to the health of their body. Probably too for the reduction of pollution and the better carbon footprint.
The "animals lives matter" ones, those guys are in claiming that every single animal life matter. Which isn't wrong, and make sense but the human species has always relied on animals to survive / evolve (silk, wool, leather, farm animal). Where those get a little bit hypocritical sometime is that they would buy an iphone or nike shoes made by a 10 year old children paid 2$ / day. Children are animals too.


Anyway, now that i have laid this very basic explanation of the two type of vegan (according to my views, happy to discuss the veracity). what would happen to all the animals ?


Chicken ?
Hen lay eggs everyday, but not all eggs are fertilized by a rooster.
Not all eggs survive, rodents eat eggs, then small chicks are being eaten by fox and other predators.
And finally, the reason we have millions and milions of hens/chicken is due to heavy farming.

If you look into the wild, you don't see that many chicken roaming wild. I guess at first human will have to play god and reduce the number of chicken by not replacing the ones being eaten by none vegan (no one believe that the world will just wake up vegan, it will take years, chicken can live up to 10 years, surely we have 10 years of chicken resources for the people that want an extension of time before becoming vegan).
Then all of a sudden, no need for chicken, plenty of space for chicken to roam free. Why not releasing the chicken in the field, they are very good at eating parasite within crops, they also fertilize crops with their manure. Farmers would save on chemicals and...


Dog and Cats, I don't think that vegans are against nutting cats and dogs.


Cows ?  same as with the chickens, (except releasing them in crops haha). Without the need to artificially inseminate them,  there would less cows, and they wouldn't be in the city centers. They would be in the wild. doing cow stuff.
Off course there would be some example of cow on the road causing accidents and stuff, but no solution is perfect.
Look at India, cows are goddess there. They do what they want, but you can't really say that they are over populated.
And when a cow is too old, she dies, and a predator will eat it. (could be an eagle / a cougar ... same fate as dead antelope in africa).


Sheep, vegans are probably not against cutting the wool of wild sheep to prevent them of over heating.
Vegans may even agree that sheep could be "farmed" if they had like 500 m2 of green pasture per animal, no killing of their offspring, no artificial insemination and wool trimming once a year.  Basically sheep almost roaming free on large body of land, and being left alone except for the yearly wool collection. No harm there.
Plenty of countries in the world that have excess of green pasture.

Regarding the pest, well it is a hard one.
Maybe that we have a separate way to deal with them.
Maybe we continue to use pest control, maybe a memorandum will say that for the greater good, pest must be controlled.
After all, we jail human because they do bad things to the environment or other human.
It could be the same for pest.

What do you think ?



Cows only have milk if they have a calf, once the calf is big enough to eat grass, the mother cow stops making milk.
In the modern farming industry, cow are artificially inseminated so they have babies (calves) every year and produce milk all the time.
Once they calf is born, he is being sent to a shredder (alive) and sent to trash. 
This wouldn't happen in a world where cows are free.
 

to me there are 2 types non-carnivores..
one vegetarian. doing it more for the healthy eating (no radicalism)
then there is vegan(the radicals) that try drilling it into peoples heads about animal suffering

as for chickens
farmed chickens purposefully keep roosters out of the hen house purposefully to make sure eggs dont fertilise.
but lets say humans have 2 kids in 80 year lifespan
chickens have dozens or more chicks in 10 year life span.
mathematically for a human family to start at 2 and get to 6 takes 60 years.. a chicken can do that in 1 year
so 2-6-36-216.. and its only year 3,not year 30 not year 60.. just year 3

yes natural predators can kill off alot of it naturally but still numbers of population expansion without controls of separating the roosters can quickly escalate things in months/years. not dcades/centuries

for instance media has examples of islands overrun by wild cats and dogs that were left to breed naturally because they were not neutered

imagine the same with cows.. without having a farmer to fense off the bull from getting to the cows.. alot more cows breeding will occur

Might Vegans simply be mandated to always carry around, the pro rata fraction of flocks of animals they have saved ?

:D nah it needs to be full adoption paper work for each sheep, and registered for social security to attain same rights as civil acts. and also have a social security number and healthcare coverage :D

:D whereby as guardian, the vegan takes full responsibilities for the sheeps actions :D

Questions to all non vegan out there :

1) would you eat the following :
Dog ?
Cat ?
Rat ?
snake ?
polar bear ?
penguin ?
Kangaroo ?
worms ?
Parrot ?
Pigeon ?
Monkeys ?
other Human ?

(for all the above, the assumption is that they have been bred for the solepurpose of being eaten, hence, all the animals are diseases free, and the meat is suitable for human consumption).


2) would you drink :
cow's milk ?
Goat milk ?
Camel's milk ?
Dog milk ?
Rat's milk ?
monkey's milk ?
horse milk ?
Human milk ?

(same as above, for each of those animal, the baby has been taken away and killed, the milking animal is being used for your sole purpose. None of these animal have diseases, and the milk is safe to drink).


=> Did you answer yes to all the points in question 1, what about question 2, only yes ?



PS : I am not vegan, however, I only have animal products once a week and in small quantities.

i didnt answer yes to all.. not due to any emotional reason that they are different but that some products just are not delicious for my taste buds

also. lets take cows.
cows usually only have one offspring at a time but have more than 1 udder. a mother udder produces more milk than an offspring requires. so there is more than enough to share. there is no need to kill the cow just to steal milk.
that said male calves do get slaughtered at births because the demand is to raise female cows and costs are more to raise a gender that is less in demand than other

First of all, I'm not vegan. I think there's just a small number of them compared to us who normally eat meat but I understand why they want to do it. They're not forcing anyone to be vegan so I think we shouldn't take it out on them if they don't support eating meat. For me it's mostly emotional. We can't realistically all be vegans though those of us who choose to be should be able to practice without being questioned or put in the spotlight. We have our own beliefs. There may have been previous experiences that pushed them to avoid meat. I just try to put myself in their perspective.

I am not a vegan but your statement seems to be that we as humans must kill animals even if we don't eat them.
Why should we? We should be living peacefully in our ecosystem. I know that you cannot live peacefully with a wild bear but consider the fact that each animal (including humans) are created for different ecosystems.
Vegans just claim that killing animals is harmful as an excuse to blame other people who eats meat.

Actually, a lot of the vegans would love to force others to be vegans.

I like this kind of vegans, not the one on television disrupting traffic or instilling their ideology on someone's head. I have some friends and family members who is vegan and I respect them and sometimes joined them. I like vegan as a lifestyle, or for whatever reasons they have but they too had to respect other persons' food preferences.

I don't say that they are right or wrong to try to force other people.

But, don't we have some people trying to forbid  the Chinese to eat dogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lychee_and_Dog_Meat_Festival)

or the Dane (Denmark) to kill Dolphins (https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/annual-ritual-sees-hundreds-of-whales-slaughtered-in-denmark-pictures-spark-outrage-2170285.html)

Or the Japaneese to hunt Whales for "fake" research purpose.

Or poacher to kill elephants and Rhino for Ivory.

Why are we trying to restrain them in doing what they like to do / have been doing for many generation.

Is our moral ground higher than theirs ?


Who decide which animal is worth protecting ? worth eating ?
We shouldn't kill and eat elephants, but chickens are free for all ?


The Veganism questions is not just a black or white question.
there are many shade of grey.

I think the best solution in a post-carnivore world is to just cull domestic animals and keep some remaining in zoos. I know the simple idea of zoos is anathema to the more militant vegans but we can just convince them it's for historical and scientific conservation, like how we still keep smallpox specimens for research.

Surely one or two zoos having a pair of cows would trigger them less than a slaughterhouse. Good luck to them exterminating cows from India though. They'll feel the wrath of nuclear Gandhi.  ;D

I think those are all good questions and valid comparables. By looking at these all together creates a frame of reference for all killing of other animals.

But I still like the idea of Vegans having to carry the animals they saved around.

Going veg is trendy now. Veg and non-veg were just food varieties in the past. Now they are going full force to make each other look wrong.
Veg people generally associate eating meat with carbon-footprint. But that's just one measure. There are several studies that are showing veg food production is much more devastating to the environment than producing meat. Both of them even claim human body is made to eat meat or to eat veg food. But in reality human body has omnivore structures and organs.
It's better to eat what you feel good and what your body asks for. Not to be forced to change your food habit.

so in a post farming society (farming to cage and kill animals) you propose a culling and zoo society(caging and killing animals)

the only difference i see is the bi product of the culling is just carcusses left to rot. more human starvation due to the remaining wild animals eating all the fruit and veg meant for humans while offering no meat protein into a diet

oh and if you suggest neutering animals and incinerating carcusses. how many racoons, rats, birds, flies, possums, dingos, coyotes have you seen avoiding cities, how many get neutered. and how much polution is produced by burning a mass culling of wild herds

I'm vegan, and have been for about 10 years. I don't think we should torture and kill animals, but I'm not a raving zealot about it. I generally try not to mention I'm vegan as I know a lot of people get antagonised.

The huge herds of animals we have for food - yes there would be a problem of what to do with them if they are no longer being eaten. It's a man-made problem though, we created those herds. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find a solution.

man actually controls farm animal population
did you know there are less cows on a farm than there are mice on a farm.
man controls the cows but not the mice

im not into 'torture' but the facts are animals do die. and just letting animals reproduce by not separating the genders will cause over population.
its why bulls are separated from cows and artificially inseminated.. its why roosters are kept from chickens

though an example im about to mention is a bit of a childish illustration of simplifying it down. but the lion king is a most basic demonstration of the result of a civilation with no code/rule where everything goes back to survival of the fittest. by this i mean what happens in the period where mufasa isnt around to keep everyone responsible and everything is left to fate. it turns to wasteland

again im not into torture (killing for sport) but humane slaughter and using the bi-product of such. is better than just over population, disease epidemics, rotting carcusses and people having bad diets.

think about all the fruit and veg going to waste in a situation of no culling/no pesticide/no insecticide society. even imagine the cows who are not being hand fed in troths, but stampeding through fields eating vegetable farmers crops

imagine cows like racoons or foxes that do enter cities. but instead of just a 20lb animal its a 500lb animal running around

We have bred these massive herds. If demand for animal products decreases we breed fewer of them and their population drops. The argument for thousands of cows rampaging through city streets only applies if everyone instantly goes vegan at the same time. In practice demand tails off more gradually.

Quantify 'a lot'. Come on, that's a lazy generalisation. Some vegans want that. I don't want that.
Some men are rapists, doesn't mean a lot or most or all.

I think those are all good questions and valid comparables. By looking at these all together creates a frame of reference for all killing of other animals.

But I still like the idea of Vegans having to carry the animals they saved around.

And don't forget delicious Bacon. A lot of cults would tell us we shouldn't eat pigs.

I always thought that vegetarians are all about not hurting the animals and not eating meat. Vegans are people who don't eat anything produced by animals. They're a vegetarian extremists.

I understand vegetarians, but don't get vegans. I don't understand how taking an egg from a chicken who lays one almost every day hurts it. You're not killing anything, you're taking a byproduct. A very healthy byproduct. Are you going to say that taking honey from the bees and putting in sugar hurts them?

Vegans and vegetarians are cocky because  they can go to a store and buy soy this soy that, a couple exotic fruits and a fresh bread and they're set for a day.
I'd like to see them left in the woods for a couple days where there's a lot of rabbits and birds but no beans or corn growing around. Would they look for a nest and have some tasty scrambled eggs for dinner or chew bark and drink water.

Only female chickens lay eggs. Male chicks are killed. They are put onto conveyer belts that run into mincing machines whilst they are still alive. Have a look on YouTube if you don't believe me.

I don't think I'm cocky. I don't think I am better than someone who eats meat. I've just made a different choice, that's all. If you want to eat meat and eggs then do so. What you do is your choice, I would have no right to decide for you.

Why should the way chicken meat is processed stop me from eating eggs? I don't see how this is related?

Animals that are killed should be killed in a humanitarian way, with no pain. I don't think this is how it's done everywhere in the world. We shouldn't put a farmer who lets his chicken run around freely and then collects the eggs with one who keeps his birds in a crowded enclosed space, in the dark, and feeds them antibiotics.


I meant the vegan movement in general not you. There are always exceptions but a large number of vegans are people who get everything served on a silver platter and choose to turn down meat because it comes down to choosing soy milk for their coffee or a veggie burger and it makes them feel special.

It's always fun to watch a debate between a vegans and hunters. What's your view on hunting?
How are you vegans going to resolve the problem of simple farmers living off the land? Should they release all their chickens and rabbits and eat corn and potatoes all year?

It's not the way chicken meat is processed. Baby male chicks are not killed for meat. They are not adult chickens for the meat industry, they're literally newborn chicks. The egg industry kills millions of male chicks because they have no use for them, as they will not lay eggs. Video here if you want evidence, but a serious warning before you look, it's absolutely horrific, so only watch if you're sure you want to. https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/egg-industry/baby-chicks-ground-up-alive/


Thanks :)


Obviously I'm not a fan of hunting. There are occasionally valid arguments for culling in certain circumstances, but most are spurious.
As for farmers - it's not up to me, it's up to them. What would give me the right to demand that everyone lives in the same way that I choose to? If you're a vegan or a vegetarian or a meat-eater, you should live as you choose. Biologically we're omnivores, we've evolved to eat both meat and plants.
Similarly I am strongly against religion, but that doesn't mean I'm burning down churches and demanding that everyone becomes an atheist.

That's a fair criticism of my comment.

I actually have no clue as to the %age.

Offhand I'd think it was comparable to the gay/lezzie movements, where there are incredibly obnoxious loudmouths "speaking for the movement" and they have zero similarity to the average gay or lezzie who is a totally normal person

Also find out that those who are vegans some of them don't choose that by themselves actually their health don't allow them and they were forced to become vegan because of their health issues.
So, instead of judging anyone or commenting on anyone we should think according to there perspective s well and everyone has the right to choose what they want to be whether it is vegetarian, non vegetarian, vegan or anything.

Thanks. I'm meriting that because it is so refreshing to see someone concede a point on here!

Speaking from the vegan side, yes, I concede that there are some vegans who are obnoxious dicks, just as there are some non-vegans who are obnoxious dicks. I think the gay/lesbian analogy is a good one. Generally if you have any label that defines a group and represents a difference from the norm, it attracts idiot attention-seekers wanting to be flag bearers.

lol
no.. just no

man inseminates cows at a predictive and controlled rate and slaughters them at a predictive rate
EG cows only live a couple years for meat but can live decades wild
in the wild they can continuously get pregnant and give offspring at an uncontroled rate.
again the bull is not being kept away meaning the bull naturally inseminating a cow like a f-boy does at a nightclub

again without control things go out of control.
i can understand your peace and harmony desires. but the reality is the opposite
also knowing the predator-prey lifecycle and hierarchy a cow doesnt have much prediators however rats do. yet rats in cities are a problem

but its not just cows. imagine sheep, pigs chickens. suddenly its a multispeciies population growth doubling ever couple years not every 20 years(humans average generations every 20 years)

just imagine cows doing what humans do, but every every year instead of 20 years.
oh and before you say les cows than people
cows dont know birth control and dont have the fingers to put a condom on...

think of the reality not the utopia

What is your opinion ?
Are all animal free for hunting ?

Should we hunt grizzly bear in alaska ? what about polar bear ? and Alpacas ?
What about elephants, Lion ? panthere ? those are animals, and like wild pigs, or ducks, they don't "belong" to anyone.

Should we only hunt with bow and arrow (like our ancestors) or with a sniper ?
I live in NZ  (but i am french).
Here (nz) people are shooting with a sniper gun (like legit, they shoot animal - Deer- on a hill at 300 - 400m). Sometimes even at night with infrared lenses. But, hey it is "sport".

Back  home(France), people mainly go to forest, and use a 2 cartridge shotgun, if you are further away than 20m you will miss, and the animal can hide in bushes or behind trees and stuff.

Is one type of hunting better than the other ?


I'll put again what I previously wrote :





Also one more point,
Let's imagine you buy a plot of land in  some random forest.
Technically you can fence it off, and go on a rampage and kill all the rabbits and deer and other animals on it.
Animal lives have no value for the council/government/people.

However, if you want to cut every single tree, and make a huge concrete pad in lieu of the forest, then the government will tell you that the trees can't be cut, that you have to protect the environment, that it will become an eye-sore ...

How about we eat them to extinction?

:)

The point of a vegan society is not to harm animals, so I don't think hunters would be allowed to hunt the population in such a bizarre world  :D
I'm unsure what vegans think about nootering animals? I assume it's okay?
That would probably be a costly solution, but a solution none the less  :-\


I volunteer to eat the burgers.

So the eggs are responsible for the deaths of cocks and if we did not eat eggs nobody would care about them and we'd let them all run free. Is that what you're saying? I'm beginning to see those banners, Stop eating eggs! Save cocks!
So, here's some background story. My grandparents lived in the country, had chickens, made chicken soup out of cocks. My grandpa would catch an old cock or an old hen and chop its head with an axe. I saw that happen when I was a child. Not the greatest view but it's food. It's thousands of years of history. What gives a fox the right to kill a chicken and eat it? Nature. The same nature that gives us humans the ability to hunt and cook meat.

Another background story. I know a guy who had rabbits and is a lousy builder. One night wild dogs broke in and ate all his rabbits. Poor guys were screaming while it happened. I live nearby and tried to stop it but the dogs didn't care for my screams or lights. They were enraged and did their thing anyway. That's nature. At least we humans do it fast and clean.

Most men today are softies who faint at the sight of blood and can't cook anything that doesn't come half-processed.


Most of these animals aren't tasty. People don't eat carnivores like wolves, and lions. Never did even before they begun to go extinct and hunting them was forbidden. There are rules for hunting and there's really a lot of them like you can't shoot very young animals or mothers who take care of their young. Real hunters have a strict code.

The culling is before going full-vegan. The farm animal zoo is just to keep vegans occupied. They'd lose all meaning in their lives when society goes vegan.  Not so special anymore. ;D

I don't believe a full-vegan diet is for everyone, I'm simply suggesting how they might go about this.  ;D

The wild animal population isn't exactly gonna be affected, remember the culling only affects domesticated animals. Wild animals would just proceed like before and existing laws on how to deal with those straying into farmland should apply.

As for rats, sky rats and other vermin, they're here to stay. They'd still go to cities whether we go vegan or not. Remember I'm only talking about getting rid of farm animals since that's what vegans are insisting should be done. I suppose afterwards they'd be crying "You monsters, why are you poisoning rats!" #ratlivesmatter #plagueisfun  :P

If meat-eaters want to eat meat that's their choice. I've already said that. Why would I be waving banners? My point was just that the egg industry breeds millions of chicks and then kills half of them, that's all.

Jesus Christ. VEGANS AREN'T SPECIAL. We are normal people, just like everyone else. I am not superior to meat-eaters, I am not special. Plenty of vegans just want to live quietly without eating animal products. In everyday life I actively go out of my way not to tell people I'm vegan, because I just don't want the aggro. I tell people I don't like the taste of meat and I have dairy allergies. I'm been on this forum for 2 1/2 years, this thread is the first time I've mentioned it here. I'm not judging anyone, other people's decisions are their own. If other people are allowed their own choice, why shouldn't I be allowed mine? I'm not bothering anyone.

Sorry if I'm being aggressive. It's just that the constant sniping really wears me down. Rant over, I'm okay again now.

So about those banners and some of us having a passive aggressive stance towards vegans. I'm fine with people like you who don't start picketing and liberating animals, but many vegans are crazy.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/06/vegans-accused-killing-piglets-accident-storming-farm-cuddle/
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-masked-vegans-picket-burger-king-in-londons-leicester-square-using-137987377.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/02/chef-gets-death-threats-claiming-have-spiked-vegan-diner/

I'm not going to tell anybody how to live, but I really don't see any benefits of vegan diet.

Oops forgot that you're here. Easy to forget there are actually vegans like you. Trust me, it also get tiring for us that mere moments after recipe videos are uploaded we'd already have vegans spamming and then post replies to simple innocent comments like "Oh that's tasty" with "You are all monsters and deserve to die for eating meat!".

Anyway back to discussion, yeah poultrys do cull the male chicks. They just need the female chicks to replace their layer hens. I heard in Western countries it's a horrifying process with the chicks being ground up, sometimes while still alive. Where I live they are actually sold for food and it seems there was no grinding process involved - I see the chicks sold fried or broiled whole as street food in poorer areas.

i dont see styca as a radical vegan
i would think of styca as a peaceful vegetarian

however think in a vegan possible society the vegans(radicals) would not like to see animals locked up either. as many think battery chicken farming (caged) is torture in comparison to free range chicken farming
(they would argue all farming is bad as a separate layer to their beliefs. but free range is lesser of 2 evils)

so in a full vegan society i wouldnt think vegans would want zoos/fenced farmland of any kind

hense my hypothesis of the wild animal free roaming cow scenario is at play rather than a keep cows locked up and cull the escapees

my only thought would b to extend land to be enough to allow natural self sustainability (enough grass land to graze) and fense it off .. but call it a nature conservation reserve.. to atleast hide the 'zoo' / 'farm' / 'animal prison' asthetics of quarantining animals

though, im still thinking the vegans would be against culling, so gender separation would have to be part of the nature reserves quarantine policy to prevent over population

OKAY but you gotta be careful and stay suspicious around these molevegans. They infiltrate our culture for decades. They have long term plans, First they side with the ones who'd like bacon off the menu. Then they solemnly agree with the Scientists That Say beef is bad. Then it's the oils that the chicken is fried in. But really, it's the gradual, relentless march of the anti-meateaters.

I suggest everyone carefully consider those who would take away our Zero Amendment, the right to eat tasty meat.

Here is study material on this subject.

http://www.ooze.com/pweeta/

Yes, that does happen. They sound like attention-seeking idiots. If your aim is to get people to stop eating meat, then the way to do it is not to antagonise people with needlessly aggressive 'look at me!' comments. Especially in situations where no-one has even mentioned anything about vegans. You can't just shoehorn veganism into a topic when it's not even part of the discussion. You have to wonder at the primary motivation of these people, is it animal welfare or is it just attention-seeking? Will they still be vegans in ten years' time, or will they have forgotten about it and moved on to become 'trailblazers' for whatever is the new outrage-of-the-day?

Stay suspicious my friend. My secret aim is to break into your meat stores and replace the meat with carefully sculpted tofu replicas. You will never know the difference. Mwahahahahaha.
Or maybe I'll just say eating meat is your right, and no one person has moral authority over another person's decisions.

Not denying there are vegans who are idiots. It's a certain type of person, they flock to any cause. Anything where there's a metaphorical banner to wave, anything where they can concoct moral outrage.

but then us carnivores use our protein enriched brains and notice that its 'processed meats' due to the sodium nitrate (salts(brine) thats pumped into meat as a preservative/additive that is the threatening carcinogens.. not the meat itself.
which then just means get organic farm frozen or farm fresh meat thats not got 'preservatives' in it

or if you want to fight the vegan radical about the whole 'cancer' thing. just tell them about the salts and tell them that instead of buying meat thats preserved. your instead gonna go hunting and get meat fresh off the bone while its still warm.. as your own radical response

I think that's a vague attribution as to cause, and a Hail Mary Pass as to effect, as are almost all attempts to define healthy. But here's a interesting take on the subject.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/01/bacon-cancer-processed-meats-nitrates-nitrites-sausages

[/quote]

but then us carnivores use our protein enriched brains and notice that its 'processed meats' due to the sodium nitrate (salts(brine) thats pumped into meat as a preservative/additive that is the threatening carcinogens.. not the meat itself.
which then just means get organic farm frozen or farm fresh meat thats not got 'preservatives' in it

or if you want to fight the vegan radical about the whole 'cancer' thing. just tell them about the salts and tell them that instead of buying meat thats preserved. your instead gonna go hunting and get meat fresh off the bone while its still warm.. as your own radical response


[/quote]

Exactly, that is how we evolved, by eating high quantities of animal proteins, not to mention fat to endure long winters. Animal protein is needed for the body to function properly, the problem is the salts and crap they put in the meat to preserve it.

same goes for for smoking to some extent
when they say 'smoking tobacco contains xx carcinogens' what they are not saying is the tobacco alone has x carcinogens but the cigarette paper has xx carcinogens... things like chlorine and such to bleach the paper white, other chemicals in the glue to stick it together, and even the rings that prevent a continuing burn have chemicals.
even the co2 from the smoke itself leaves a carbon tar in the lungs

its not just a swap from rolling tobacco to rolling weed to announce 'cured cancer risk'. because rolling weed can have carcinogens too.. because the paper its rolled in. and the carbon tar.. which is why people use pipes to avoid the paper chemicals and use bongs instead to avoid the paper chemicals and to atleast reduce the amount of smoke,tar, carbon you inhale.

once people know the true facts and not the threats people can then be free to make their own decisions about what and how they put things into their bodies

take vegetarians. they know they are putting weed killer chemicals and pesticides in their body when they dont buy organic. so they can be just as at risk of getting cancer as meat eaters.

but as for the radical vegans that want everyone to cry every time beef is cut up. i should also get to say(its fair) to inform them that most people also cry when they cut up an onion.
i cant help it. when i cut up an onion. i know its gonna make me cry but im still gonna do it because my coleslaw just wont taste the same without it

It seems to me that certain movements are more likely to attract those sort of people, like veganism and SJWism. I don't believe many of these "new prudes" stay in these movements, especially veganism since it actually require discipline

IMHO only movement thaf have high retention is Fat Acceptance since the longer you stay the fatter you get.

but then us carnivores use our protein enriched brains and notice that its 'processed meats' due to the sodium nitrate (salts(brine) thats pumped into meat as a preservative/additive that is the threatening carcinogens.. not the meat itself.
which then just means get organic farm frozen or farm fresh meat thats not got 'preservatives' in it

or if you want to fight the vegan radical about the whole 'cancer' thing. just tell them about the salts and tell them that instead of buying meat thats preserved. your instead gonna go hunting and get meat fresh off the bone while its still warm.. as your own radical response


[/quote]

Exactly, that is how we evolved, by eating high quantities of animal proteins, not to mention fat to endure long winters. Animal protein is needed for the body to function properly, the problem is the salts and crap they put in the meat to preserve it.
[/quote]

I don't think we know for sure about the additives, not sufficiently so to justify paying the higher prices for "organic."

Say for example a person bought only organic, but used plastic containers in the fridge and microwave. Bad things can leech out of plastics, too; particularly when they are heated up.

Now here are two suspect areas, nitrites and plastic components. but there are MANY others.

That's the nature of our world today.

I agree. I think that sometimes these people flit from movement to movement. Go to your radical vegan one year later, and they are eating meat again but have adopted some other cause.

just to question a first hand knowledger of the veggie crew
i prefer to think the healthy happy veggie crew as vegetarian. and the radicals that protest as vegans

just like the strong happy women that succeed as 'independant'. and the radicals that hate men as feminists

but what makes you want to class yourself as a vegan. i dont mean anything harsh in the question i mean why this latest trend buzzword and not just say your vegetarian. what definition do you use to define the difference between vegetarian and vegan
(i know the google search definitions. but just wondering your person choice of which buzzword your associated as)

1. plastic packaging leachs more when heated. for instance hating something in the microwave in a plastic bowl puts more plastic into the food contained than the food would have had if just refrigerating the food in the same bowl
-solution: use a glass or ceramic bowl in the mircowave
-solution: why the heck are you frying the bacon while still in its packaging :D

2. we do know for sure about additives. the articles analogy about finding out granny been putting arsonic on your toast is very good. its not the initial toast its what granny done to it

3. getting food processors to change the addatives or just go 'fresh to frozen', doesnt lead to needing to be organic. it just means the pigs could be factory farmed (not freerange/grassfed) and just hot receive the sodium nitrate treatment
(by the way even organic bacon has sodium nitrate)
(by the way sodium nitrate is used as part of the fertiliser of soils even in organic crop farming. so even veggies have the same stigma)

i personally go to my local farmshop that has a freezer of meat straight from the field that they take out slice it up that day and then when selling it, wrap it up in a paper wrap. (i know i know the chlorine bleech used to whiten paper, no ones perfect)
(i also prfer my sausage and chips in a paper wrap from a chip shop, not a polystyrene tray from a fastfood place)

anyway im digressing
my meander off a vegan society to point out about carcinogens was because i have heard many radicals literally say 'ha ha the pigs are fighting back for how you treat them. now die in cancer agony for eating meat'
yet its not the pigs fault/revenge/cause. its the food factory(granny adding arsenic to your toast) fault/cause.

It's probably because protestors tend to be those with extreme viewpoints. Vegetarianism can't really be classed as extreme, as it's a point on the scale between carnivore and vegan. Some vegans are protestors. Vegetarians probably not. If a vegetarian started to protest about people eating meat, a vegan protestor would probably shout them down for eating animal products at all.
So if you see someone protesting about eating meat, that's why it's more likely to be a vegan doing the shouting. Doesn't mean all or even most vegans, just some - I would suggest a minority.


I don't like buzzwords and labels. They cause all sorts of trouble, and force people into groups and to take sides. They are used for convenience though, and as a shorthand. Semiotics really, signifier and signified. You say apple to mean, well, apple. You don't say I'm going to eat that small spherical green object. Or indeed red object, not all apples are the same, it's just a convenient label for a class of things.
If someone invites me to dinner, I will say 'Are you sure? I'm vegan and it will create extra work for you.' I don't say 'I'm vegetarian and it will create extra work for you.' If I said vegetarian I'd be given maybe a cheese dish which I wouldn't eat, and I'd then have to pretend I had a stomach ache or something. If I go to a restaurant I don't say do you have anything that's vegetarian, as again I'd probably be given cheese something, same problem.
TBH I don't often say I'm vegan, just sometimes it's unavoidable. I don't think I'm part of some elite group, I don't take a vegan's views as more important than those of a non-vegan. We're all just people really, each different.

What? they don't want to harm animal but they do eating some animals? Is they really vegan?  I don't think why some people like that acting like a weird because there are some people also want to be a unique but there are some doing they act that they are not.

We're referring here specifically to a certain type of person who adopts a cause just so they can shout about it, not because they believe in the cause.

Analogy: You know how whenever you see a protest march about something descend into fighting against the police - often the genuine protestors who actually believe in the cause aren't the ones fighting, the fighting is by people who have joined up on the day specifically for a chance of violence.

This is certainly true for political protests such as what we see today in the Antifa and Occupy junk movements.

But why would it be true for vegan and vegetarian stuff?

probably because the main veggie stereotype is the peace and love, 'grow what 'nature' provides and eat its fruits'. the peaceful harmony people that dont want torture and death..

.. then at a protest, violence.. which obviously goes against the peaceful harmony free life of no harm or torture.
so many would and they probably right to say.. the violent protests are not the ones against torture if they themselves want to cause harm

They don't really want to be vegans, they just wanted to be "in", or feel better than other people, or try something new. It's usually new converts that are most militant.

It's particularly telling that the similarity between militant vegans and antifa is they are usually composed of people in their 20s. They just haven't sorted out their lives yet and grasping on anything.

Has anyone see the netflix documentary called "Game changers" ?

Yes, one could  arguably say that the documentary is bias toward a plant food diet.
But it still ask some very good questions about health and performance of our body.

We only have one body and keeping it healthy is important.

I can tell you that the same way we had adds about cigarettes in the 50s being healthy and good (and now unhelathy and banned in public place).
We will have the same change of  opinion about (some) of the animal products (probably not all animal products).

that documentary was interesting

the average man needs just 60g of protein a day
with meat being 25% protein it means 240g of meat
(2 quarter pounders)

so that UFC fighter eating 2kg of steak each day was eating way more protein than needed(500g)
however vegetables only have 3% protein. meaning you need to eat 2kg of vegetables just to get 60g of protein

so yes 2kg of meat is stupid. and instead think of it as one hamburger patty size piece of meat 2 times a day is sufficient
NOT 2 huge steaks
otherwise you will need to be chewing on ALOT of vegetables if not eating meat at all

also animals dont make protein from other meat. they just get protein already created from other meat. the actual protein creation is as the documentary said made from enzymes breaking down vegetation.

but to digest and break down 2kg of vegetation and turn it into protein rather than just get it ready made is something of an adjustment
(people get smelly breath and burp and fart alot as the gut bacteria die off and decay for fresh vegetable friendly gut bacteria to do its work)

so try transitioning slowly or stick to a balanced mix diet. not too heavy on the meat, but still having meat to not go too heavy on the veg.

it takes the body 3-4 times longer to digest and convert nutrients from veg than to just get straight supply from other animals
EG converting fructose (fruit sugar) into glucose, and if there is excess, then into fat. takes alot of effort.
where as meats already have it in biological form ready for usage or storage, thus saving the fructose->glucose conversion effort(but yes with meat, more chance of storing excess and getting fat)
yes meat has some bad enzymes in it. as thats the waste us living animals need to excrete so again eating 2kg of meat instead of 240g of meat is not recommended. dont eat too much meat. you dont need it

but what the veggie crowd dont tell you is 2kg of veg also produces alot of waste too.
so this is why some athletes/vegans dont go full 2kg of veg but instead 1kg of veg and then protein shakes and vitamin supplements to get the balance.

its all about finding the right balance
if you can handle 2kg of veg a day, go for it. or find a balance that suits you either less veg and more supplements or a fair balance of 'meat and 2 veg' medium size plate twice a day

my point being though
many vegan radicals think that they can have a perfect diet on small amount of veg.. sorry they are wrong.
many people end up having to grind their veg into smoothies to get the nutrition but in a liquid form so they are not bloated as much as eating it in solid form.(plus it helps speed up the digestion and conversion delay of veg compared to meats 'ready made' nutrition intake)

Bad idea. I saw a vlog of a kind where a guy told his story of his dietary experiments. He was trying different things like a diet with a lot of fiber and this caused a severe case of intestine irritation where he'd bloat up a lot and be in pain all the time and the thing that helped him was a meat diet. He basically ate beef all day and got rid of the problem as beef is a rather clean meat with no additives and hormones.
Greens are great for you but in moderation. I once tried to eat a lot of fibers and my only achievement was constipation. Everything is good in moderation.

Chickpeas has 19g of protein for 100g of chickpea, I personally love Hummus. 
Fallafel has 13g of protein for 100g, so you basically need twice as much fallafel than Beef steak.


But yes you are right, brocoli has 2.8g of protein per 100g. 

Checked back on this thread to see what's new. I'd probably watch that docu you recommended later, thanks for the suggestion. About the protein in veggies, would the body be able to use all of them up?

Among people that are willing to go part-time vegetarian the main question is if the amino acids in the veggies are bioavailable. Another one is that some people are saying that plant products can block the absorption of certain nutrients, especially legumes (some are even poisonous if not prepared properly).

I'm kinda wary of going full vegan because of that. I remember seeing "slimming" iced tea mixes in the grocery that supposedly have bean extracts to block carb absorption. Also heard of an issue with people that went overboard on kale juice. Just to be safe I avoid legumes during days that I workout.

Check the docu, it is great, they basically take the stories of high performing athletes that went vegans.
I don't know if the body is able to use them all up, but I am pretty sure that the human body is not able to process all the protein in meat anyway.

You will be suprised to hear that on earth billions of people dont have meat everyday and are very healthy.

Yeah a few vegges are not edible raw (like potatoes, pumpinks ....
But on the other hand, almost all the meat could be poisonous if left in the sun and then eaten raw.
And if you don;t gutter well the animal, you can also have food poisoning.


Being vegan doesnt mean eating 1 type of food only or going full steam on Kale.
Also being vegan or vegetarian is not synonym of "healthy" food.

You could eat everyday french fries and Oreos, you are vegan but this is a terrible diet.

To be fair, I don;t really believe going 100% vegan.
If you have meat/fish once or twice a week (out of 21 meals) you get most of the advantages of a plant based diet without being judged as a extremist  ;D

As a vegan you can get plenty of protein from tofu and the various 'meat replacement' products, it's not just beans and lentils.
But a vegan diet is not 100% complete - you miss out on B12 and (in my country, not in some others) iodine.
I can get those in some fortified soy milks, but if I'm not having enough soy milk I do sometimes supplement with B12 pills.

you need to eat 750g of tofu vs 240g of meat to get same protein requirement
you need to eat 1kg of tofu vs 240g of meat to get same fat requirement
you need to eat 3.5kg of tofu vs 1kg of meat to get the same calories requirement

so on average you need to eat more than 3x of tofu than meat to use tofu as a replacement
(triple decker tofu quarter pounder burger instead of a quarter pounder beef burger)

also tofu/soy then requires people to eat 'fortified'(chemically added in manufacturing) soy/tofu products
which as anyone know if something needs to be added via supplements or manufacturing. then obviously the bas product is very deficient in those nutrients naturally

so going full tofu or 'organic soy' (not fortified) can be worse than eating meat.
especially with the lengthier digestion times to convert the nutrients and the larger amounts needing to be consumed, can make you feel uncomfortable

so its about finding a balanced meat and 2 veg diet(portion: meat1:2veg) for the best balanced non fortified/supplemented diet

Considering this it's really weird to see vegans live longer lives on average.
I think there's reasonable suspicion to think it might have something to do with the average vegans healthy lifestyle in contrast to the average meat-eater.

It could well be, yes, after all, we all know correlation does not imply causation :)

Some people (me included) do think that vegan diets are healthier... but this doesn't have to be true. It just needs the right sort of person to believe it's true.
If some people who want a healthier lifestyle believe vegan=healthy, that will be enough to make them go vegan, and presumably they'll also be taking up other healthy activities, running etc, which will make them live longer on average.

considering veganism is coined in 1944 (75 years ago) its not actually got to a stage of proving 'live longer' as the average age of any human diet is higher than vegan age.

by the way there are some people that smoke all their lives and live until 100+ .. but that does not mean on average smoking makes you live longer, obviously

what you also find out is things like people who want a 'healthy lifestyle' usually ensure they go to have their regular doctor checkups and they examine their body more often. nothing to do with diet but just general awareness of health. where as some people who dont care about health just avoid the doctors as its inconvenient.
thus without even discussing what type of food goes into someones mouth. stats would show the health conscious people would show as having their doctor find cancers earlier than someone not health conscious.. simply because the stats sway to the health conscious people simply turning up for health checkups. emphasis nothing to do with diet

Anecdotally, I used to have quite a few colds in winter time - but I've not had any at all in the 10 years I've been vegan.
Appreciate this is hardly conclusive evidence though. We do need proper large scale studies before we can really conclude that veganism is healthier. What works for one person doesn't necessarily for others.

anecdotally, i have a relative that went veggie. h started to get the flu less.. but that might b due to it being harder to cater to his food demands (fussy eater) and how he farted alot more.. so we didnt visit him as much thus we didnt pass him the bugs as much

however
i would like to see studies of non-socially deprived, non food supplimented/fortified vegans vs those of balanced meat and 2 veg diet

Yes, I'd like to see some proper studies too. Non-biased stuff with high numbers of participants.

I'm kind of on the fence about your relative. If he farts a lot more, then that methane contributes to global warming, which is bad, but if the farting is sufficient that he can propel himself through the city by ass-power then that reduces his fossil-fuel footprint, so is good.

Have a merit because you made me laugh :)

I want to point out that in many many countries, animals bred for human consumption are B12 deficient and that vets have to inject them with B12. (google if you don't believe me)

If industrial didn't inject B12 into your meat you would also be B12 deficient and would need supplements.

i get my food from a local farm. i eat meat knowing its straight frozen and not injected with upto50% extra brine to add weight. the veg is like a sack of spuds with the dirt still on, same with carrots. and yes i dont scrub my spuds clean i just rinse them off to get the excess dirt off. so yea id say i still eat a bit of dirt that stuff like b12 converted from.
i love cooking potato skins. nothing beats proper crispy potato skins. no walkers/lays(crisps/chips) can even come close

and my b12 is fine

its good to have laughter
as for global warming. destruction of rainforests, concerting,tarmacing, asphalting land and then having houses and roads where rain is not allowed to sit to evaporate but to instead drain into underground pipes and sewers means less vapour in the air.

sorry but water vapour is more of a temperature controller than carbon/methane
ask yourself why is a rainforest not called a carbon or oxygen forest

Well in your case, i would say that the meat you buy is of far better quality than most.
The vegetable you gets are of very high quality and have all the nutriment you need

And if you get meat from a local farm, the carbon footprint is not as big as other consumers. 
Kudos to you !

The next step, would be to do a little bit more research about the benefits of cutting down meat and eating more veges.

Too long to quote all. But yes, we don't need meat on a daily basis. I'd still eat fish though if I can't get mammal meat, I just don't feel full without animal protein.

As for rotten meat being poisonous, that's common sense. ;D Fresh meat can be eaten raw without much problems (parasites aside but you can also get those from raw veggies too like the kimchi scandal years ago), we just can't absorb everything from it in that raw form (hence cooking).

Personally I don't intend to go against my biology. My teeth shows I'm an omnivore and I'll eat plants and animals as I need and want. I don't allow neither vegans nor paleos to ruin my meal for me.

I saw talks on the thread about Vit B12. If one wants to get it from animals, they actually have to eat the offals too, the meat don't have much of it. I haven't researched where to get it from plant sources but iirc malt and brewer's yeast have B vitamins. And also beer. Beer is always good. 

We have evolved to be omnivores. It's natural that we eat meat, yes. Our bodies need the nutrients that are in meat.
However - doesn't mean that we can't get those nutrients elsewhere, doesn't mean we can't eat a healthy non-meat diet.
Veganism is not natural for humans. But it's not natural that we have cars and computers, it's not natural that we have glasses to correct our eyesight, etc etc.

I think what would change is that all the land used for livestock and growing feeds could be switched to farms or maybe converted to other uses. Not sure what to do with all the farm animals once they get phased out.

Maybe the change can be gradual, with meat getting more and more expensive as meat substitutes get better and cheaper and then eventually only a few breeders remain.


I might go full vegan once we can have lab-grown meat that have the same taste and texture as real meat.

There's this
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/vegan-meat-life-expectancy-eggs-dairy-research-a7168036.html

There's this. It shows lower mortality rates with those taking plant protein vs animal protein. But it's about substituting animal protein for plant protein. I wonder how easy it is for vegans to intake the same amount of plant protein that we do by eating meat. Would you take enough naturally?

if i ait one halfpound burger vs a 1KG bag of sprouts.. .. i certainly know which one would give me 'wind' more

anyway im digressing off the society topic of vegans living care free alongside farm animals that have been set free to be wild again. and turning into a dietry guide
so lets talk about the society of only vegans instead of the diet

I recall reading that on average, a bigger % of vegan are consuming more protein that the quantity they needed compared to meat eater. (ie, meat eater population have a higher % of protein deficiency in the US population)

But this statistic is Bias because, non Vegan (ie meat eater) includes more low socio-economics layers (poor people) that can't afford to eat meat in sufficient quantity (think, people just having a Ramen noodle meal in a cup.., $3 pizza ... people skipping a meal, ).
Meanwhile Vegans are relatively more wealthy people that usually take time to cook and research their meal.  

I can't find  the source, so pardon my approximation.

This (https://www.vivahealth.org.uk/sites/default/files/Protein-vegetarian-vegan.pdf) is quite comprehensive, might be worth a read. It references about 20 different studies.

Spam tinned 'meat' is not Ham
Spam is 7g protien per 100gram weight
ham is 21g protien per 100gram weight

thus poor people buying  spam would be 3x less protien nutrient even if they sliced the same 100g of spam as someone else slicing 100g of ham

and to the same respect
sprouts aint tofu
sprouts =3g
tofu=8g
thus same near 3x diffrence

Yes, and this could potentially skew the 'vegans are healthier' thing as well, because poor health is associated with lower socio-economic strata.
I do think vegans are healthier, but health is a complex thing with many inter-related factors.

Any computer hacker could have told you that spam wasn't very nutritious.

computer hackers dont eat spam. they hack pizza delivery websites to get free pizza
..still not nutritious

I'm sure there's a joke to be had here about denial of service, but I can't find it.

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong. Now for an important question.

Can a vegan eat animal crackers?

hacker: [phones pizza place] 'wheres my pizza'
pizza place: we dont know the delivery guy left on foot, then ransomeware

yes. but they cant eat 'cheese and hackers'

No.

We can however eat honey - it's just that we need signed consent from every bee involved in the process. This tends to take such a long time that mostly we just don't bother and say we can't eat it.

but vegans with their fake sympathy cries still do what they do, yet i never see any signed consent to use crocodile tears

I did try to get signed consent from a crocodile once. Never again. Now I have to use my other arm.

What crocodile tears?

you know the kind. when you find out someone dies and suddenly everyone acts like it happened to their best friend even though they had nothing to do with that person. just to try and fame up their life like they are trendy or special by being in some group

i still of the mindset that vegetarians are the true non meat eaters and vegans are just the buzzword trend lovers of instagram and twitter. who are radicals and oversell their opinions without doing research, and cry on command without real provocation

Oh, yuk. But if it works, even I might give it a try. Yuk. The details and pics at the site are quite extensive... worth reading at least.


Sisters claim swapping their vegan lifestyle for a RAW MEAT diet has cured their autoimmune disease - and feast on uncooked organs, suet and eggs every day (http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/News/271729-2019-11-13-sisters-claim-swapping-their-vegan-lifestyle-for-a-raw-meat.htm)




8)

but then

anyone see the problem with this


so whats the recipies..
oxtongue marinated in a fridge with a sauce made of blood and saliva?
beef liver in a nice lamb seaman soup

Yes I do know the kind, and yes there are some vegans like that. I can't stand people like that. Attention-seeking idiots.

I used to be vegetarian, it was understanding what happens in the egg industry that made me go further. If you are vegetarian because you don't want animals to be killed, vegan is a natural extension where you dont want any mistreatment of animals at all. But I'm not pushing anyone. As I've said before, we have evolved to eat meat. Veganism is in this sense unnatural. To each his own.

We don't all cry on command or push our opinions without doing research. Some of us walk quietly amongst you, indistinguishable from meat-eating people. Just as I had been doing for a couple of years on this forum before posting in this thread. You only see the loud ones, not the quiet ones.

Wow, that's pretty extreme. Raw steak I could understand, but the whole animal nose to tail, raw eyeballs and stuff? I'm impressed someone could manage that. Kind of good if they're using the whole animal though I suppose.

Just to help you out in your weakness...

You might try going to the article and checking out the place that says, "Ashley and Sarah, who boast almost 12,000 followers on Instagram with the handle @strong.sistas," and then signing up with Instagram if you don't already have an account, and asking them. It's all in the site reference in my post you referenced, and slightly quoted.

8)

you dont get it
COOK book... for people who dont COOK
its simple english. no need for anyone to become follower number 12,001 to find that out

Don't you get it? I was simply showing you where to go to get your questions answered. If you don't want answers to your questions, I'm all good with that! But then why did you ask? You can recheck your questions above in the quoted posts.

Don't get me wrong. Intelligence is so overrated. You probably have many other good points that override your intelligence lacks in some ways. So, don't feel bad.

8)

you do realise it was not actually a real question but a sarcastic rhetorical sentence to raise a point..
i guess you missed the point which does not require becoming a follower of a fan club

again to end this subject

raw food requiring a cook book... 
it like saying space requires oxygen to be a void

lets word it another way just for you
if you think you ned a cook book to teach you how to cook meat in a RAW DIET. your missing many points.

but i hope you enjoy following the cooks that dont cook and the lentz that doesnt know law

have a good day though

If we stop killing animals,then this world will become a desert in few decades.

Vegans are just stupids who don't have enough knowledge to know about the food cycle chain.

If you say it was sarcasm, then I might understand that it is. But there would still be some doubt, because you might be speaking sarcastically when you say that it is sarcasm.

This being the case, there is no need to take anything you say as meaning anything.

8)

yep. many vegans dont realise that if animals spread and reproduce and graze on everything green , nothing green is left.

vegans dont realise that 'organic' 'free range' farming ends up needing several fields where cows are periodically herded into other fenced off fields before all the grass is grazed, so that while in another field the first has time to recover and regrow. without farmers/cowbows to herd cows around in a controlled methodic method the animals just eat anything they find.

its why raccoons run out of 'natural' food and end up straying into cities to raid trashcans because they ate all the natural food in the countryside.

if vegans think there is a lack of vegetable supply to feed everyone now. imagine the situation after wild animals are grazing

Even now we are suing lot of fertilizers to grow the things more faster due to lack of availability so how the humanity will survive if no meat to eat. :D

Anyway not every vegan is vegan,because at some point they were eating adulterated foods of no veg items without their knowledge.

You don't understand that green things grow back? Don't you have winter over there in Ireland? Doesn't the grass turn brown in the fall, and turn green again in the spring? Even if it doesn't happen where you are, it happens all over the world in many other places.

8)

Only grass will grow in days but plants take months,if it is in organic then will take more longer.

Lets assume there are 200 plants,50 animals and 50 humans in this earth.50 animal eat 100 plants,25 human eats 50 animal and the 25 remaining eats 100 plants.

If every human in this world becomes vegan he need to share that 200 plants between 50 animals and 50 humans,so huge difference in the availability of food right?

Now you are talking about supporting a world of many more billions than exist right now. Don't forget that we and the animals can eat algae and plankton.

8)

You can jump from the second floor and still can alive doesn't mean we have to jump from there. :D

Let the fishes eat algae and eats the fishes later,make the things simple.

though i dont like to teach badecker, it seems like i have to as he doesnt seem to have deeper thoughts on issues

plants dont just grow from nothing. pollonation and seeds are needed. and when animals outnumber the space for its green feed they eat it to death. this means that they eat it to such a point that the plants dont even get a chance to flower/pollonate to even create new seeds to allow the wind to blow it around to reseed the soil.
animals tread on land and bread the seed.
no roots in the soil means less of a viable land to retain water thus the soil becomes dry and too brittle to be seeded.

come on just think about it logically. when a farmer harvests. does he just wait for spring and magically a new crop is growing.. no
the farmer has to re toil the land(break up the dry brittle land) seed the land and fertilise the land and water it

if regrowth was so natural, guess what.. farmers would only need to work in august to harvest crops and then take the rest of the year off.. but they dont.

if badecker thinks that it just grows back naturally then h has not stepped into the countryside to s what really goes on. and h would have a hard time trying to explain why selling grass seed is even a thing. if in his mind grass just appaers out of nothing each spring.
what he forgets in a non-over grazed non over trampled field the plants and grass have had chance to pollenate and the roots of previous year remain like a net to retain the moisture and nutriants so yes in a field where herds have not gone crazy on the land it 'could' grow naturally. but when there is a over use of the land by herds. then nature just crumbles into dry brittle soil

same goes for rain forests. cut it all down and whats left is dry brittle soil thus land dries up and temperatures in the area get hotter because theirs no moisture in the soil or air to evaporate and take the heat away

If you get hungry enough, you'll eat just about anything.     8)

Hey, man. Thanks for showing us that even you know stuff that is common knowledge to everybody. There are many places in the world where plants grow without threat of annihilation. Everything you say is common knowledge, but has nothing to do with the questions being asked.

8)

if whaling and fishing is banned. even the algae would disappear due to whale population growth imbalancing the whale:fish:algae ratio
 
if farming is banned even the healthy vegetation would disappear due to the cattle:crop imbalance

but enjoy your weed and poison berry soup. have fun with the stomach aches, vomiting and eventual death
long live the poisonous puffer fish

Still have time to get into the serious drought like you mentioned,maybe in 2050 humans will eat anything they have or they will other humans. :P

I knew it would happen one day. I find myself in agreement with one of BADecker's posts.
Oh. My. (non-existent) God.

you will be glad to know you still dont have to agree with badecker. because not everything grows back each spring
especially if its been trampled over..

what badecker and most people think is that land heals itself no matter if its unused or over used. spouting out how grass seeds can regrow in just 6 weeks.
however. that involves maintaining the land to not be over used or having to re-seed the land

hints: why do farmers even need to buy grass seed, why do people need to water their lawns and land


research: land degradation

Phew. Thanks.

I have to take partial responsibility for this. Me and my vegan friends frequently trample through farmers' fields under cover of darkness, foraging for nuts and berries.

(i understand your sentiment was comedic)
but them dirt paths you follow that have been constant year after year, caused by just low population of a few ramblers walking the same strict route. as most other human population use roads instead

now imagine a field being used like a music festival routinely,trampled on randomly with no obvious care for direction or route
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/27/08/35B5D9B500000578-0-image-a-4_1467014142666.jpg

because after all cows dont the intellect to drive cars to just stick to roads or enough intellect to stick to paths
its why farmers doing organic grass feed free range farming have to section off fields and herd cows to new sections every fortnight in cycles of a couple months
http://www.precisiongrazing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/TechnoGrazing-System-cattle-grazing-grass-in-early-spring.jpg

to then.. human organised reseed .. the first patch and give it time to regrow over that 6week recovery time before letting the cattle back on that section

imagine if farmers didnt do that and just let cows bred naturally by not separating the bull from the cows, and not sectioning off area's to give it a chance to regrow. nor reseed the land after the cows move to new area's
http://dailypitchfork.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Cattle-water_Bryce-Gray-620x264.jpg

Overpopulation of cows etc would be a problem if the whole world turned vegan overnight. We'd have to work out how to solve the problem we'd created by breeding so many of them.
However whilst veganism is increasing, it is increasing slowly. Lower demand for meat can be managed through controlled breeding (of livestock, not of vegans. Actually, controlled breeding of vegans would probably also help to keep the vegan numbers down. Win win).

but vegans dont want a natural free choice to just not eat meat and let farming de-popularise out of less demand. they want to change laws and give animals human rights. such as recent news of laws giving animals 'sentience' "they have thoughts and feelings too" thus trying to make slaughtering and cattle farming illegal overnight

again vegetarians for decades had the mindset of just stop eating meat and demand would fall. but vegans are going full throttle into changing laws and wanting overnight change.

All you talk about sounds legit. I don't mind veganism at all, I even find it quite attractive, but if we think about the consequences it can bring it turns out not so ideal. Also, funny enough, some vegans say that for them all lives are equal, but they don't bother when they step on an ant, for example, or kill a mosquito that's picking them. Well, what I want to say is: you can't be nice to everyone and everything. However vegans are really strong and determined people, I admire them

I don't think every vegetarian wants that though. Most vegans i know became like that through personal choice. They wanted to avoid meat though  they won't force other people to share their sentiments. Some of the are aware that we need the nutrition that comes from meat. They just choose to find alternatives and they apply it only to themselves.

That's a valid point actually, that if the law changed then it would be an instant problem overnight.
However I don't think a law change is likely in a western democracy. It would be a real vote killer unless >50% of the population (who could be bothered to vote) was already vegan.

laws can and do change in the western democracy.. and if you didnt realise.. citizens dont vote on laws, they only vote for mp's once every 4-5 years

separetly MP's then vote on laws depending on what their 'whips'  l lobbyists convince them to vote on

at the moment in th UK brxit is opening an oppertunity to change laws real easily, because the UK doesnt have to follow EU laws after brexit the vegans are pretending that animal welfare automatically disappears at brexit.
it doesnt
but what they are trying to do is convince MP's that it will and to enforce a new law for animal welfare that is far stricter than the current laws.

basically we have had RSPCA and animal welfare all along. but the vegan crowd want a new law that makes animals have a higher 'sentience' definition that makes them have a 'life worth living' factor included. this means they cannot be killed just for meat as soon as they reach a certain weight while still young and healthy, but only euphanised if they are too old and suffering or have a disease that would cause suffering

different animals have different levels of 'sentience' for instance run over a bird, no harm no.. 'fowl' .. but run over a dog and RSPCA will come knocking and treat it like a hit and run.
what the vegan groups want is all animals whether wild or farmed be treated with the same high level of dogs/cats
which might all sound peace and love hippy happy.. but the reality is going to be the opposite

Sure. But MPs once elected don't suddenly start implementing unpopular policies like banning meat, which will see them voted out in 4 years' time. Politicians are short-termists. Everything is done with an eye on the next election.

We have a Conservative government. Their aim is to strip away protections and regulations, always has been, look at their history. They would certainly not implement anything that could act as a brake on the excessive profits of their friends.

Not trying to be a preachy vegan (feel free to complain about it though, I can take it :p ) ... but have a look at tool use in New Caledonian crows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Caledonian_crow#Tool_use_and_manufacture), if you're interested. I mean by the crows, not 'in' the crows. Yuk.

Most people think that they are killing animals and eating them which sounds something weird to them but they misses the food cycle if we got imbalance at one stage then whole world will be in danger so if they did for personal preferece then its okay but if they are claiming they are good souls and who were eating meats are going to be in hell then they are just stupids.

sentience and 'reason'
the ability to think 'reason' is the difference between a bacteria and a animal. animals can think and plan. yep they know what to eat, where to find it and how to get to their food
but sentience is more about the ability to feel. such as questioning their reason to be alive and getting emotional about it

the laws of sentience ripples to things about is it murder if an animal is killed or is it just an incident
it ripples into things like is aiding a comatose person to die classed as murder or euthanasia
same as people in vegetative states. its why people are literally called vegetables when they have no cognative awareness of their life.
it impacts things like medical proxy why by a next of kin can decide on another persons medical choices if their cognative abilities are in question
it impacts who is a guardian/carer of an animal or child depending on the level of cognition. its why when a dog craps in a public area, its not the dogs fault for crapping but the dogs owner fault if the dogs owner does not cleanup.

again there are different levels of sentience
a bluetit bird doesnt have the cognative ability to plan on using tools, all it knows is to follow its friends (flock/murmuration)
where as crows and magpies have more cognative abilities. but still not enough to be classed as sentient whereby its lawfully classed as murder to run over a bird

by giving animals the same 'sentience' level as man. is obviously going to cause animal-slaughter to be punishable to the same level as man-slaughter
thus its not just going to be about 'aww that birds smart' but cause people to be criminals for accidently running ovr a bird, or make farming illegal just like euphanasia is.

I guess lets just respect however a person in there diet. As long as it is in the boundaries of human law then that is fine. Be it a vegan or not.  Let's just respect our differences. Anyway, it's what makes human unique, we have a lot of differences right. Cheers.

Agreed we chose to live with reality and chose to accept what the good earth has to offer. Its not like we kill & cook those animals cause we want to, its because we need to. The benefits of good meat to our body and essential nutrients of it that makes our muscles even stronger. Even in the animal kingdom different types of species fight for survival cause that just how the natural cycle goes. To maintain order and control.

I was looking at an article recently on ferral pigs in panema and I'm not sure if anyone knows about them and if they've caused any nuisence (though I imagine they have) - there are also more cows than humans and probably more chickens and pigs.

A lot of things vegans say are just stupid anyway, they don't eat honey because it (supposedly) harms bees but somehow eat flour (because combine harvisters have anti-rodent protection now - they don't)...

Most of the time it's good to at least eat animal byproducts as you're keeping up the diversity, if you can try to go with organic options then they'll be much healthier (if they are actually organic as those animals are better at digesting some vitamins from the gound and producing vitamin D from the sun - where land is cheap you're more likely to find organic well grown animals).

And don't even get me started on fake meat... I don't want to eat a burger because I don't want to kill a cow, but here's my enthused alternative made from soil mould (the thing that means I have to throw out potatoes every month)...

^^^ It's wise to pressure cook ferral pigs before you eat them.     8)

I agree, most of vegans are health concious  :D and also there are alternatives source of protein other than meat such as tofu or eggs.

I think it would be a loss of choice if they couldn't kill it Because it was a profession in their past Now we need animals to keep our society in balance. If we do not harm them they will be able to multiply and increase their numbers In order to survive we have to consume a lot of food for the human body to make meat-eating veggies.

So they are having hard time on digesting meats that is why they turned out into vegans?

Well that's one good reason why one goes full vegan. Sometimes it's not about advocacy and it's about just living a heathy lifestyle and diet. There are those that are in a way, forced to avoid meat. In the end it's a choice. I still believe that we need the proteins and nutrients that can be found in meat and i can't see myself going vegan. But as I've said, it's a choice most of the time.

Absolutely,we need those high protein foods to build our muscle then can we workout to get better physique.Eating veggies all the time can make you feel less powered.Just my personal observation.

I have a couple of vegan friends. I'm okay with them. But there are those vegans who try to tell you that veganism is good and excellent. It's annoying to see people like that trying to drag children into it, who also have a choice of what to become and what to eat. I'm okay with them, as long as they're not actively trying to drag me into it. I sometimes eat vegan food myself, especially when my friends come over. We look for recipes at veggieslicious.com (https://veggieslicious.com). There are a lot of tasty dishes there that I've picked up for myself as well. After all, they have delicious dishes, even though they are vegan. I don't understand why many people think you're vegan if you like to eat salads.

What's worse is that some folks think it's not just ok but part of their vegan mission to force their pets to be vegan...

Hate to tell ya this folks but cats, dogs, most lizards, many birds, et al are either carnivores or at best, omnivores that prefer meat but do also occasionally eat plants when needed. They simply will not get the nutrients they need from only plants and will often practically starve themselves if not fed what they are born to eat or at least something resembling it.