a society question about vegans

[franky1]

ok so the vegans dont like killing or harming of animals

so my question is. what would society look like if we did go full on hippy and not kill harm, cage, trap animals?
meaning no farms, no vets(who gonna pay the bill), no slaughter, no culling, no pest control. just leaving animals to roam free

take human population. each generation is ~20 years and most couples have ~2 kids as replacements for them.
obviously the parents have more than 20 years to live. so 2 become 4 become 6 (grandparents die4, great grandkids born6) become 6again become 8 and so on.. which as we all know causes over population in millenias from caveman times to the future

so with chickens that lay eggs far faster and in more quantity
with dogs an cats having litters of multiple offspring.

obviously with no boundaries no 'cullings' no organised killing and just left to be wild and die naturally.. and breed naturally do vegans actually realise the consequences of wanting to get rid of farming.

do vegans actually know what happens to animals if not taken care of
alot of media has provoked the attention of asian countries 'burning dogs' but what they dont address is the overpopulation of dogs due to the previous era of not controlling the population and allowing dogs to roam free.. in essense the 'roam free, live free' philosophy of groups that vegans pretend to now be before vegan was ven a word. are the very reason for the cause of such provocative media stories recently

in my view the native indians had it right. kill what you need, use every piece of what you kill and respect and control nature around you.

i would love to see vegans reaction if they were suddenly charged a farm tax to look after a cow for a full long life, cover all the vet bills, feed, cremation and such. but where the vegan doesnt get any 'product' out of the extra charge

my main point being
when looking at the damage things like british badgers/foxes.. american coyotes, racoons, australian possums and world wide rats. what would the damage be like if it was ruled out to not slaughter, not cull, not treat them as rodents/pests

[1714160731]

1714160731

[Mometaskers]

Might be unpopular with vegans but if a society is going to go full vegan, there might be a need for a mass culling on the start. Bring the animals' numbers down to something manageable. Then reintroduce predators and they should keep each other in balance.

Personally my concern with domesticated species is that, well, they are domesticated. Sheep for example would grow massive mass of wool if unshorn. Cows are just plain dumb and we bred them that way, same goes for other livestock.

I like your cow idea. It's very "white elephant". Might put them into perspective.

[franky1]

Personally my concern with domesticated species is that, well, they are domesticated. Sheep for example would grow massive mass of wool if unshorn. Cows are just plain dumb and we bred them that way, same goes for other livestock.

imagine cows breeding uncontrolled, unvaccinated.. all the 'foot and mouth' virus stuff. then imagine a heard stampeding down your street
(imagine a lion king/jumanji scenes of stampedes, but happening in your very street)
just imagine how much damage a cow can do to a car if it was running down a side street and got hit by a car.
are we to just pull the carcus to the roadside and leave it like most people do with dead cats, rabbits, badgers, foxes and pheasants when they get run over.

first of all. as humans we are natural predators on the food chain. we do however kill our feed more quickly, precisely and humanely than say a shark does or a eagle

(take below paragraph with some humour)
separate thoughts
would laws change where they give all animals the same basic life rights as humans. meaning even the insect that eats at a cabbage gets to do so and cause it to rot and be larvee and disease infested
would it be declared murder and a prisonable offence of life in prison for hitting a wild cow that you try to avoid but the cow has other idea's
how about if predetor animals killed other animals. because technically we humans are predators to cows. if a hawk kills a mouse do we then lock up the hawk

funny thing is that vegans will start to come around to the 'its ok if predators kill their feed'.. which brings me back to the point about humans being predators

the problems i see with these new 'trends' of lifestyle choices is that people never really do the research. they just see some emotional youtube video and then start acting and repeating the exact same stance as their inspiration. without going into the deeper thought

[squatz1]

Just a point here. Not all vegans are such because of the fact that they care about the animals that are dying. If they were -- they'd have a hard time surviving day to day due to the amount of products that are made with animal byproducts.

Most Vegans are that way due to the health benefits of a Vegan lifestyle -- it's not healthy to eat Steak (we do it), it's not healthy to eat processed meats (we do it), and so on. Most foods that we eat as staples -- think sandwiches, eggs,etc -- just aren't good for you.

The Vegan lifestyle is the healthiest. It truly is.

[iluvbitcoins]

The damage would be tremendous.
Domestic animals without natural predators would breed extremely fast and fill entire villages&cities with their population.
Not mentioning they would live in pain, since cows for example require milking otherwise they will experience great pain and vegans do not drink dairy products.
We'd be overrun by pigs,sheep and most likely rabbits because of their capacity to breed fast if they could find enough food in urban enviroments.
The biggest populations would probably stick to the countryside but there would be plenty roaming urban centers.

This fortunately will never happen because people like meat.

[squatz1]

The damage would be tremendous.
Domestic animals without natural predators would breed extremely fast and fill entire villages&cities with their population.
Not mentioning they would live in pain, since cows for example require milking otherwise they will experience great pain and vegans do not drink dairy products.
We'd be overrun by pigs,sheep and most likely rabbits because of their capacity to breed fast if they could find enough food in urban enviroments.
The biggest populations would probably stick to the countryside but there would be plenty roaming urban centers.

This fortunately will never happen because people like meat.

Ugh.....

Maybe just let the hunters go wild? Let them roam and allow the hunters to shoot.

They wouldn't be able to sustain their population growth even if this was the case, as their wouldn't be enough food for them and humans wouldn't allow them to take their food. That would cause death of the aniamls.

The damage would be annoying, and animal activists groups would be pissed, but it'd be fine.... God I don't know why everyone goes DOOMSDAY on everything these days.

[guigui371]

~snip~

Hey Frank1
This is a very good question.

There are two type of vegans :
The Plant based one, they are "in" for the benefits to the health of their body. Probably too for the reduction of pollution and the better carbon footprint.
The "animals lives matter" ones, those guys are in claiming that every single animal life matter. Which isn't wrong, and make sense but the human species has always relied on animals to survive / evolve (silk, wool, leather, farm animal). Where those get a little bit hypocritical sometime is that they would buy an iphone or nike shoes made by a 10 year old children paid 2$ / day. Children are animals too.


Anyway, now that i have laid this very basic explanation of the two type of vegan (according to my views, happy to discuss the veracity). what would happen to all the animals ?


Chicken ?
Hen lay eggs everyday, but not all eggs are fertilized by a rooster.
Not all eggs survive, rodents eat eggs, then small chicks are being eaten by fox and other predators.
And finally, the reason we have millions and milions of hens/chicken is due to heavy farming.

If you look into the wild, you don't see that many chicken roaming wild. I guess at first human will have to play god and reduce the number of chicken by not replacing the ones being eaten by none vegan (no one believe that the world will just wake up vegan, it will take years, chicken can live up to 10 years, surely we have 10 years of chicken resources for the people that want an extension of time before becoming vegan).
Then all of a sudden, no need for chicken, plenty of space for chicken to roam free. Why not releasing the chicken in the field, they are very good at eating parasite within crops, they also fertilize crops with their manure. Farmers would save on chemicals and...


Dog and Cats, I don't think that vegans are against nutting cats and dogs.


Cows ?  same as with the chickens, (except releasing them in crops haha). Without the need to artificially inseminate them,  there would less cows, and they wouldn't be in the city centers. They would be in the wild. doing cow stuff.
Off course there would be some example of cow on the road causing accidents and stuff, but no solution is perfect.
Look at India, cows are goddess there. They do what they want, but you can't really say that they are over populated.
And when a cow is too old, she dies, and a predator will eat it. (could be an eagle / a cougar ... same fate as dead antelope in africa).


Sheep, vegans are probably not against cutting the wool of wild sheep to prevent them of over heating.
Vegans may even agree that sheep could be "farmed" if they had like 500 m2 of green pasture per animal, no killing of their offspring, no artificial insemination and wool trimming once a year.  Basically sheep almost roaming free on large body of land, and being left alone except for the yearly wool collection. No harm there.
Plenty of countries in the world that have excess of green pasture.

Regarding the pest, well it is a hard one.
Maybe that we have a separate way to deal with them.
Maybe we continue to use pest control, maybe a memorandum will say that for the greater good, pest must be controlled.
After all, we jail human because they do bad things to the environment or other human.
It could be the same for pest.

What do you think ?

The damage would be tremendous.
~snip~
Not mentioning they would live in pain, since cows for example require milking otherwise they will experience great pain and vegans do not drink dairy products.
~snip~

Cows only have milk if they have a calf, once the calf is big enough to eat grass, the mother cow stops making milk.
In the modern farming industry, cow are artificially inseminated so they have babies (calves) every year and produce milk all the time.
Once they calf is born, he is being sent to a shredder (alive) and sent to trash. 
This wouldn't happen in a world where cows are free.
 

[franky1]

~snip~

Hey Frank1
This is a very good question.

There are two type of vegans :

Chicken ?
Hen lay eggs everyday, but not all eggs are fertilized by a rooster.
Not all eggs survive, rodents eat eggs, then small chicks are being eaten by fox and other predators.
And finally, the reason we have millions and milions of hens/chicken is due to heavy farming.

to me there are 2 types non-carnivores..
one vegetarian. doing it more for the healthy eating (no radicalism)
then there is vegan(the radicals) that try drilling it into peoples heads about animal suffering

as for chickens
farmed chickens purposefully keep roosters out of the hen house purposefully to make sure eggs dont fertilise.
but lets say humans have 2 kids in 80 year lifespan
chickens have dozens or more chicks in 10 year life span.
mathematically for a human family to start at 2 and get to 6 takes 60 years.. a chicken can do that in 1 year
so 2-6-36-216.. and its only year 3,not year 30 not year 60.. just year 3

yes natural predators can kill off alot of it naturally but still numbers of population expansion without controls of separating the roosters can quickly escalate things in months/years. not dcades/centuries

for instance media has examples of islands overrun by wild cats and dogs that were left to breed naturally because they were not neutered

imagine the same with cows.. without having a farmer to fense off the bull from getting to the cows.. alot more cows breeding will occur

[Spendulus]

~snip~

Hey Frank1
This is a very good question.

There are two type of vegans :

Chicken ?
Hen lay eggs everyday, but not all eggs are fertilized by a rooster.
Not all eggs survive, rodents eat eggs, then small chicks are being eaten by fox and other predators.
And finally, the reason we have millions and milions of hens/chicken is due to heavy farming.

to me there are 2 types non-carnivores..
one vegetarian. doing it more for the healthy eating (no radicalism)
then there is vegan(the radicals) that try drilling it into peoples heads about animal suffering

as for chickens
farmed chickens purposefully keep roosters out of the hen house purposefully to make sure eggs dont fertilise.
but lets say humans have 2 kids in 80 year lifespan
chickens have dozens or more chicks in 0 year life span.
mathematically for a human family to start at 2 and get to 6 takes 60 years.. a chicken can do that in 1 year
so 2-6-36-216.. and its only year 3,not year 30 not year 60.. just year 3

yes natural predators can kill off alot of it naturally but still numbers of population expansion without controls of separating the roosters can quickly escalate things in months/years. not dcades/centuries

for instance media has examples of islands overrun by wild cats and dogs that were left to breed naturally because they were not neutered

imagine the same with cows.. without having a farmer to fense off the bull from getting to the cows.. alot more cows breeding will occur

Might Vegans simply be mandated to always carry around, the pro rata fraction of flocks of animals they have saved ?

[franky1]

Might Vegans simply be mandated to always carry around, the pro rata fraction of flocks of animals they have saved ?

nah it needs to be full adoption paper work for each sheep, and registered for social security to attain same rights as civil acts. and also have a social security number and healthcare coverage

whereby as guardian, the vegan takes full responsibilities for the sheeps actions

[guigui371]

Questions to all non vegan out there :

1) would you eat the following :
Dog ?
Cat ?
Rat ?
snake ?
polar bear ?
penguin ?
Kangaroo ?
worms ?
Parrot ?
Pigeon ?
Monkeys ?
other Human ?

(for all the above, the assumption is that they have been bred for the solepurpose of being eaten, hence, all the animals are diseases free, and the meat is suitable for human consumption).


2) would you drink :
cow's milk ?
Goat milk ?
Camel's milk ?
Dog milk ?
Rat's milk ?
monkey's milk ?
horse milk ?
Human milk ?

(same as above, for each of those animal, the baby has been taken away and killed, the milking animal is being used for your sole purpose. None of these animal have diseases, and the milk is safe to drink).


=> Did you answer yes to all the points in question 1, what about question 2, only yes ?



PS : I am not vegan, however, I only have animal products once a week and in small quantities.

[franky1]

Questions to all non vegan out there :

1) would you eat the following :
polar bear ? yes
Kangaroo ? yes
Parrot ?  yes
Pigeon ? yes

2) would you drink :
cow's milk ? yes
Goat milk ? yes
Camel's milk ? yes

(same as above, for each of those animal, the baby has been taken away and killed, the milking animal is being used for your sole purpose. None of these animal have diseases, and the milk is safe to drink).


=> Did you answer yes to all the points in question 1, what about question 2, only yes ?



PS : I am not vegan, however, I only have animal products once a week and in small quantities.

i didnt answer yes to all.. not due to any emotional reason that they are different but that some products just are not delicious for my taste buds

also. lets take cows.
cows usually only have one offspring at a time but have more than 1 udder. a mother udder produces more milk than an offspring requires. so there is more than enough to share. there is no need to kill the cow just to steal milk.
that said male calves do get slaughtered at births because the demand is to raise female cows and costs are more to raise a gender that is less in demand than other

[gabmen]

First of all, I'm not vegan. I think there's just a small number of them compared to us who normally eat meat but I understand why they want to do it. They're not forcing anyone to be vegan so I think we shouldn't take it out on them if they don't support eating meat. For me it's mostly emotional. We can't realistically all be vegans though those of us who choose to be should be able to practice without being questioned or put in the spotlight. We have our own beliefs. There may have been previous experiences that pushed them to avoid meat. I just try to put myself in their perspective.

[Naida_BR]

I am not a vegan but your statement seems to be that we as humans must kill animals even if we don't eat them.
Why should we? We should be living peacefully in our ecosystem. I know that you cannot live peacefully with a wild bear but consider the fact that each animal (including humans) are created for different ecosystems.
Vegans just claim that killing animals is harmful as an excuse to blame other people who eats meat.

[Spendulus]

First of all, I'm not vegan. I think there's just a small number of them compared to us who normally eat meat but I understand why they want to do it. They're not forcing anyone to be vegan ....

Actually, a lot of the vegans would love to force others to be vegans.

[clickerz]

Just a point here. Not all vegans are such because of the fact that they care about the animals that are dying. If they were -- they'd have a hard time surviving day to day due to the amount of products that are made with animal byproducts.

Most Vegans are that way due to the health benefits of a Vegan lifestyle -- it's not healthy to eat Steak (we do it), it's not healthy to eat processed meats (we do it), and so on. Most foods that we eat as staples -- think sandwiches, eggs,etc -- just aren't good for you.

The Vegan lifestyle is the healthiest. It truly is.

I like this kind of vegans, not the one on television disrupting traffic or instilling their ideology on someone's head. I have some friends and family members who is vegan and I respect them and sometimes joined them. I like vegan as a lifestyle, or for whatever reasons they have but they too had to respect other persons' food preferences.

[guigui371]

First of all, I'm not vegan. I think there's just a small number of them compared to us who normally eat meat but I understand why they want to do it. They're not forcing anyone to be vegan ....

Actually, a lot of the vegans would love to force others to be vegans.

I don't say that they are right or wrong to try to force other people.

But, don't we have some people trying to forbid  the Chinese to eat dogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lychee_and_Dog_Meat_Festival)

or the Dane (Denmark) to kill Dolphins (https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/annual-ritual-sees-hundreds-of-whales-slaughtered-in-denmark-pictures-spark-outrage-2170285.html)

Or the Japaneese to hunt Whales for "fake" research purpose.

Or poacher to kill elephants and Rhino for Ivory.

Why are we trying to restrain them in doing what they like to do / have been doing for many generation.

Is our moral ground higher than theirs ?


Who decide which animal is worth protecting ? worth eating ?
We shouldn't kill and eat elephants, but chickens are free for all ?


The Veganism questions is not just a black or white question.
there are many shade of grey.

[Mometaskers]

Personally my concern with domesticated species is that, well, they are domesticated. Sheep for example would grow massive mass of wool if unshorn. Cows are just plain dumb and we bred them that way, same goes for other livestock.

imagine cows breeding uncontrolled, unvaccinated.. all the 'foot and mouth' virus stuff. then imagine a heard stampeding down your street
(imagine a lion king/jumanji scenes of stampedes, but happening in your very street)

I think the best solution in a post-carnivore world is to just cull domestic animals and keep some remaining in zoos. I know the simple idea of zoos is anathema to the more militant vegans but we can just convince them it's for historical and scientific conservation, like how we still keep smallpox specimens for research.

Surely one or two zoos having a pair of cows would trigger them less than a slaughterhouse. Good luck to them exterminating cows from India though. They'll feel the wrath of nuclear Gandhi. 

[Spendulus]

First of all, I'm not vegan. I think there's just a small number of them compared to us who normally eat meat but I understand why they want to do it. They're not forcing anyone to be vegan ....

Actually, a lot of the vegans would love to force others to be vegans.

I don't say that they are right or wrong to try to force other people.

But, don't we have some people trying to forbid  the Chinese to eat dogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lychee_and_Dog_Meat_Festival)

or the Dane (Denmark) to kill Dolphins (https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/annual-ritual-sees-hundreds-of-whales-slaughtered-in-denmark-pictures-spark-outrage-2170285.html)

Or the Japaneese to hunt Whales for "fake" research purpose.

Or poacher to kill elephants and Rhino for Ivory.

Why are we trying to restrain them in doing what they like to do / have been doing for many generation.

Is our moral ground higher than theirs ?


Who decide which animal is worth protecting ? worth eating ?
We shouldn't kill and eat elephants, but chickens are free for all ?


The Veganism questions is not just a black or white question.
there are many shade of grey.

I think those are all good questions and valid comparables. By looking at these all together creates a frame of reference for all killing of other animals.

But I still like the idea of Vegans having to carry the animals they saved around.

[tsaroz]

Going veg is trendy now. Veg and non-veg were just food varieties in the past. Now they are going full force to make each other look wrong.
Veg people generally associate eating meat with carbon-footprint. But that's just one measure. There are several studies that are showing veg food production is much more devastating to the environment than producing meat. Both of them even claim human body is made to eat meat or to eat veg food. But in reality human body has omnivore structures and organs.
It's better to eat what you feel good and what your body asks for. Not to be forced to change your food habit.