Bitcoin Forum

Hi all,

As many of you may know, I've been busy this past year with my new startup, Ballet. (https://www.balletcrypto.com/) I sold BTCC in early 2018 and took a sabbatical year off. Then in January 2019, I brought together several of the best people from BTCC and started Ballet. (And yes: all of my staff from the BTCC Mint business is with me at Ballet today.)

We launched the REAL Series physical cryptocurrency wallet late last year. It's a 100% non-electronic physical cold storage wallet that serves as a bearer asset. This product takes architectural inspiration from the Casascius physical bitcoins pioneered by Mike Caldwell. We added several important features: BIP38 two-factor key generation (2FKG), multicurrency support, and a convenient mobile app (called Ballet Crypto) to allow for easy depositing, sending, and management of multiple wallets. (And a truly undiscovered secret feature: our Ballet Crypto mobile app actually has GREAT support for traditional paper wallets and physical bitcoins, allowing you to split out all of Bitcoin’s fork coins, individually send out small amounts, etc. Give it a try!)

Last month we launched the Ballet PRO Series, which are custom-made for each buyer. You choose your own passphrase and send the BIP38 intermediate code to us, and we manufacture customized wallets that can only be decrypted by your passphrase. Further, for true disaster recovery needs, we provide three (3) identical wallets in each set, so that users can safely place these wallets in multiple locations, to prevent loss from theft, fire, and other natural disasters.

Our company has an official account here on BitcoinTalk: BalletCrypto (same as our Twitter handle)
My colleague Robert will be posting from that account. Stay tuned.

Last question:
What new products would you like to see us launch?  (Hint: we already have a really cool new product that will launch very soon... Can you guess what it is?)

It’s good to be back here on this BitcoinTalk forum!

thanks,
Bobby

Hint: this new product is something that this audience would like (something that you're familiar with...)

Good to see ya here Bobby! I’m the guy on Twitter who suggested Ballet create physical crypto, a round 2 of BTCC collectibles essentially. BTCC did such a good job with its coins, bars, chips, different metals used etc. I think everyone would love to see more of that type of stuff.

As we spoke about on Twitter briefly... I would absolutely love to see something like a 3 coin chip set (loved the cases you used for the BTCC chips ) that had funded Bitcoin , Litecoin, and Monero chips. I of course would love to see a multitude of Ballet bitcoin chips ..but that 3 coin set would be so unique.  With your brother and Pony both being collectors themselves, guessing they’d like seeing something like this!

My guess ..you already took my advice :)

Hi Bobby,

Let’s see some more virgin loaded coins and chips or on “something different and new media” if possible.


Big fan of all the freshly loaded chips and coins that came straight from newly mined blocks  8)


Thanks!

Got myself a Ballet and have been impressed and happy with it! Can't wait to see what you've got up your sleeve but if it's anything like loaded Chips we are all in for a treat. Happy to see you back bobby :).

This....DEFINITELY virgin BTC mined to something physical would be my hope and request!

iBHK8

Anything with any sort of ROI, regardless of how low.

The only series with issues that I am aware of is the very last one, which was the quality control issues with shipping.

Sure I would love to see PM products as well, but no reason you can’t have both. Chips are more affordable and definitely very popular. So why not both! More the merrier :)

Love the look of the first run of ballet wallets.
Doing a promotion of one here which closes on Saturday: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5223732.msg54010021#msg54010021
Really interested to know what the next iteration of this wallet could be?
Digital display to follow your competitors would be a major selling point for me.
Then I would be just keeping it for myself. ;D
But still love the way these ones look and having it signed was a nice touch of class!

I know I am going against the grain here, but personally I do not want to see any more virgin BTC loaded products. BTCC Mint bottled lightning with their amazing products, and I think creating new series in that vein would take away from it. Instead, there are so many other form factors or innovations that Ballet could pursue. I love how Ballet is bringing collectibles to the masses, and I’d like to see that progress. Just my two Satoshis!

physical coins you can make your own private key pair with?

Anyone can create BIP38 encrypted wallets for free using https://github.com/pointbiz/bitaddress.org
  
Please go back to making coins funded by Bitcoin coinbase rewards.  It was unique and unmatched in the physical crypto world.  If you made them using our own keys that would be a step up.  Ballet is not a step up or improvement.
  

I would argue Ballet is an improvement because it makes it easy for those just getting into crypto. It’s an all in one ready to go offline hardware wallet. A newbie can’t be expected to browse github, determine legitimacy, properly secure a device for offline key generation, print said keys, destroy printer cache, and then store these keys safely for long term (paper won’t work, and metal requires additional steps and items)....all of that OR simply buy a Ballet.

In my opinion, it’s more important to go after the broader market rather than appeal to collectors. The former creates growth, the latter is mere fan-service.

Why couldn't paper wallet work for long term?

PS. I like Ballet and thinking about purchasing few pcs

Are you referring to something similar to our PRO Series offering?
https://www.balletcrypto.com/en/pro

---

Thank you!  You've nailed it.

You've nicely described all of the reasons I jumped back in last year to start this company.
The mission is to grow the crypto space, and bring in more new people -- by making it super easy, for regular non-technical people to actually hold their own keys, and manage their crypto in a truly offline fashion, that's simple and reliable for them. That's the vision for Ballet; to make cryptocurrency accessible to everyone.

Having said that, the new product that I'm teasing now, is actually aimed at collectors -- which is why we're planning to reveal here on Bitcoin Talk forum first.

thanks,
Bobby

---

"paper wallets" that are made of just plain paper is fragile and weak, and is not suitable for long-term storage.

These are the issues that come to mind:
1) water damage (running ink, paper falling apart)
2) mold damage
3) getting chewed up / eaten by rodents (yes, it happens!)
4) fire damage

That's why some people chose to laminate their paper wallets, to prevent #1 and #2.
Others choose to backup their recovery seeds onto steel plates, which is an extra burden.

and of course, Fire is the ultimate enemy, that is truly hard to guard against without using redundancy.  (other than Gold, nothing on earth is truly 100% fire-proof.)

thanks,
Bobby

---

You mentioned "digital displays" on the wallets...

I want to take this opportunity to address the topic of electronic components in wallets, and share these thoughts with all of you.

Throughout my life, I have always been a gadget guy. I'm a tech guy, I'm a geek, and I'm proud of it!
So all along, I always try to buy the latest gadgets, smartphones, and electronic devices.  I guess many people out there are the same, which is why you mentioned about digital displays (either LCD, organic LED, or e-Ink displays).

However, in designing the architecture for Ballet products, I purposely took the reverse path: which is to AVOID electronics and electronic components.

Why? It's because at the end of the day, electronics are fragile and not resilient. They are prone to failures, they have battery/charging requirements (which creates issues), and any electronics of the "latest technology", by definition, will go out of style and become obsolete. Electronics don't age well. (Just think about if I gave you a floppy disk or a CD-ROM today, how will you get the data off of it?  and that's assuming the data on it is still there; not damaged and recoverable.)

And worst of all, secure chip and electronics circuitry usually have bugs, which necessitates firmware upgrades. So they're not really all that secure after all!  These firmware upgrades are always a nightmare; you just never know if it'll go smoothly. (sometimes, the devices won't even operate and mandates you to upgrade the firmware to proceed.)

My conclusion is that the most reliable way to hold data is to make it visually readable, without the use of any technology. This is why Ballet wallets store your encrypted private keys (EPK) and the BIP38 passphrase in simple human-readable text. We use fixed-width fonts to improve readability. And for the EPK and the deposit address, we even also show it in QR code, to make it machine-readable as well.

Imagine if the private key components are stored on a secure element chip, or in a NFC or RFID chip. If anything goes slightly wrong, it'll be practically impossible to extract the private keys.
- Have you seen NFC and RFID antennas break, rendering the device useless?  YES, I have...
- Have you ever bricked a device during a botched firmware upgrade?  YES, I have...
- Have you ever had to throw away a device because the built-in battery died / melted / corroded?  YES, I have...
- Have you ever had trouble finding the necessary cables and connectors, to connect a really old / legacy device?  YES, I have...

My conclusion is that for truly reliable long-term storage, I do NOT want the data to be stored on electronic components. (Even a USB flash memory stick or SSD is a bad idea...)

Rather, I want it to be always visually accessible, which is what Ballet offers: a human-readable vision-based architecture to store your private key components, stored in a tamper-evident fashion.

So in the years and decades to come, even in my own old age, I know that the private key data on Ballet wallets will always be accessible and retrievable.
As long as the wallet is not lost or itself damaged/destroyed, then no technology advancements or passage of time will stop Ballet from working.

For these reasons, we don't plan on adding Digital Displays to our physical cold-storage wallets.  Hope that makes sense.

thanks,
Bobby






 

---

Back during BTCC Mint days, the reason we didn't make coins tied to user-provided BIP38 passphrase is because such a coin would by nature be dependent on BOTH remembering the user's chosen passphrase, in ADDITION to trusting BTCC to have made the coins correctly. Worst of all, this kind of password-protected coin would NO LONGER be a bearer asset.

at BTCC Mint, I've always strongly emphasized the bearer asset nature of our coins and bars and chips.
Any authentic BTCC Mint collectible you see in the public / secondary market, can be trusted to be valuable and funded accordingly.  There's no external dependencies, and there's no risk that the coins is still unfunded. (which is why I emphasized on loading every coin BEFORE we sell / ship it.)

So the issue is:
How important is the bear asset nature of loaded coins?

or is it better to have it password protected (with passphrase provided by user, and now depends on user to remember & backup that passphrase?)

thanks,
Bobby

Ballet wallets and they are wonderful, but I can't find the ETH Ballet in amazon
when you reveal the surprise of that mysterious collectible?  ::)

Back during BTCC Mint days, the reason we didn't make coins tied to user-provided BIP38 passphrase is because such a coin would by nature be dependent on BOTH remembering the user's chosen passphrase, in ADDITION to trusting BTCC to have made the coins correctly. Worst of all, this kind of password-protected coin would NO LONGER be a bearer asset.

at BTCC Mint, I've always strongly emphasized the bearer asset nature of our coins and bars and chips.
Any authentic BTCC Mint collectible you see in the public / secondary market, can be trusted to be valuable and funded accordingly.  There's no external dependencies, and there's no risk that the coins is still unfunded. (which is why I emphasized on loading every coin BEFORE we sell / ship it.)

So the issue is:
How important is the bear asset nature of loaded coins?

or is it better to have it password protected (with passphrase provided by user, and now depends on user to remember & backup that passphrase?)

thanks,
Bobby


[/quote]
How are the PRO series different than the reasons you listed for not doing them back in BTCC mint days?

btw, "Triple Ackup" on your website doesnt exude tremendous confidence.

As Ballet is making wallets, since a portion of our users do want to pick their own passphrase, we built the PRO Series to cater to this audience.
As we know that when loaded with crypto, the PRO Series wallets are NOT bearer instruments, so we attempt to make that very clear to users, with extra messaging on the backside of the card, as well as on the packaging.

Most importantly, we changed the color to Sapphire Blue, to distinguish the PRO Series wallets from the bearer asset class of REAL Series, which remains bare stainless steel color.

Back during BTCC Mint days, we weren't making wallets so to speak, but rather just loaded physical coins. For that, we decided that it was important to make them universally as bearer assets (and thus without any external passphrase dependencies).

and yes, thanks for catching our typo mistake on our Pro Series web page. It was supposed to say "Triple Backup".
It's already fixed, and I've already asked my engineering team to investigate and come up with a plan to prevent / minimize these typographical errors in the future. My apologies to you for this unprofessional typo on our website.

thanks,
Bobby

Thank you for the prompt response and distinction from Ballet's wallets to yesterday's BTCC mint. I know I would be interested in a bearer asset coin collectable if offered by Ballet. Especially considering you mentioned BTCC mint team is still with you.

This is encouraging!

Majorly going against the grain lol.  BTCC coins and chips are certainly a special kind of collectible, but this is why it would be great to have Ballet making coins and chips again.  No one else is making anything with virgin bitcoin and to have a larger company making funded items, that adds a good deal of trustworthiness, not to mention BTCC collectibles are already deemed one of the most trustworthy out there.  I certainly hope he doesn't take your advice !  :D

https://wiki.coin.community/BTCC_Mint_-_Bitcoin_Block,_12.5_Bitcoin

http://45.77.136.131/27-04-2017/cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1149/5302/products/Mint_block_2015_white_2stars_1200x1200_01_1024x10246c03.jpg?v=1474622920

http://45.77.136.131/27-04-2017/cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1149/5302/products/Mint_block_2015_white_2star_02_large6c03.jpg?v=1474622920

https://wiki.coin.community/images/a/a9/BTCC_Mint_block_12.5_btc_giftbox.jpg

https://wiki.coin.community/images/f/f1/BTCC_Mint_block_front_face.jpg

https://wiki.coin.community/images/6/61/BTCC_Mint_block_12.5_btc_eight.jpg

https://wiki.coin.community/BTCC_Mint_-_Bitcoin_Block,_12.5_Bitcoin

Is this a hint for a collectible based on a major event in less than two months?  ;)

the Bitcoin block/s looks very impresive and awesome  :o :)
must have for every collector  ;D

oh my god, this is so beautiful

Will the new ones for 2020 halving be funded?

YES! Please tell me it will be something along these lines! Virgin BTC mixed into a Ballet item of sorts. Huge fan of Ballet BTW. I used Ballet to learn how to peel and then split forks and it was literally magical. It handled everything within seconds. I peeled a pre-forked Satori chip just to learn and understand the process of peeling/splitting and understanding the process since I had never peeled anything before so I tested it and it went flawlessly! So I'm a huge Ballet fan here for a multitude of reasons mostly allowing for more mass adoption as that's what BTC needs most right now and making it easy to peel if one ever needed to break glass incase of emergency, etc.... I'd love to see some aspect of the 2 combined but definitely with virgin BTC funded to the project/item. Just my 6.25 bits ;D. Hope that's the case. Either way all the best and good luck with whatever it is you're planning!


iBHK8

Very interested Bobby.  Looking forward to a chat soon.

Nice teaser Bobby, surely hope it is going to be a trilogy!

Now that you've seen the teaser.... we plan to release more details & sample images within about ~24 hours.  (Once I announce it, regardless of what timezone you're in, it will NOT be an April Fool's Joke. Just giving plenty of warning and notice now.)

Yes, these Blocks will contain virgin BTC straight from the coinbase reward (zero hops), and includes all transaction fees in the block. This means that besides this being a truly limited series, each and every block will be unique, and have it's own block height, and unique block reward BTC amount. The blocks will be funded directly by our mining pool partner, to be announced later. (If there are additional mining pools who want to join us and cooperate, please send me private message or email.)

However, in terms of sales, you pay for the Block and the BTC separately. Once you pay, we will send you the empty block (in late April), and then once you confirm receiving it, the mining pool will mine the virgin BTC to your block, as a separate transaction. You WILL need to pre-pay a deposit, and extra BTC will be refunded to you after the mining is done.

We will first launch the pre-halving Blocks, with 12.5+ BTC.  The price will be 1.0 BTC for the block, plus extra for shipping.
We will start taking orders very soon, in the next few days. This series will be strictly limited, definitely no more than 100, and probably much less.
Every Block created will be made to order. This means that you have to order to buy one. If you don't order, there won't be any free inventory for sale afterwards.

Later in May, after the halving, we will release the post-halving Blocks, with 6.25+ BTC. The price for that is still TBD, but less than 1.0 BTC.

So.... let's see if any of you are interested in this product!

For every 1 person that replies to this message within the next 30 minutes, I'll release 1 teaser photo of the new product (up to 3 total images, as that's all I have now.)

cheers!

Congrats on the continuation with this. Posting for teaser pics.

Tease please  :P

https://i.imgur.com/p23OuFE.jpg


Thanks!

That's the design image for new 2020 three-star edition of the Bitcoin Block from Ballet...

(the post-halving blocks will be four-star edition.)

https://i.imgur.com/0XwwJOX.jpg

Here's teaser #2...

a photo render of the actual block.

the size will be 8.0 x 8.0 cm square block, that is 1.0 cm in thickness, made of pure Titanium.
(In US dimensions, that's about a 3.15 inch by 3.15 inch square block, at 0.4 inch thickness.)

(This is all the exact same size / dimensions / design as the Bitcoin Block from my BTCC Mint days in 2016...)

Yessss!

And a Litecoin Block (?)  ;D

more teaser pics needed  ;D 8)

Sorry, no Litecoin Block yet... unless:
1) there's enough demand, maybe via Kickstarter?
2) there's a mining pool to help us mine virgin LTC...

In the meantime...

https://i.imgur.com/PcaauAV.jpg

That's the full photo render of the true size and shape of the 2020 Bitcoin Block by Ballet.

Enjoy!

thanks,
Bobby

BTW, great to hear your positive stories about Ballet wallet and the mobile app.  We indeed did put in a lot of thought and refinements into the app, to fully support this community.

In specific, our mobile app has great support for ALL kinds of paper wallets and physical bitcoins (and supports physical litecoins also).
Please give it a try.  (you will need a physical Ballet REAL wallet to use the app to import from paper wallets, and it'll split out all the pre-fork coins for you.)

Please give us feedback; and let us know if any of you run into problems using Ballet Crypto app with your physical coins.

We support all physical coins as long as that crypto is supported by the regular REAL Bitcoin wallets.
The full list is here:
https://www.balletcrypto.com/en/coins

That's only an 8% premium on the 12.5 blocks. No it is not cheap, all the more rare they will be.

Hi Bobby,

Congratulations on the cool new offering coming from Ballet.

I second the question in bold above.  Given the value of the btc a metal more appropriate than a few quid of Ti seems like it would be much more suited to the project.  

Just my thoughts, and again, cool project.

they're always people (rightly) suggesting for Gold/Silver as base material.  I do like gold/silver, but for practicality purposes, we can't go with gold/silver due to the various import/export rules surrounding precious metals. So it's a no-go.  Sorry.

the premium is less than 8% (when you factor in the extra BTC in transaction fees for each block, as the total will be over 12.5 BTC).
our market research suggests that 8% is very reasonable for this kind of unique product.

And for collector's value, the fewer sold, the better!  ;)

The Ballet app and the cards themselves are incredible. Like I mentioned I originally bought it just to have it then it was your brother Coblee who recommended I use Ballet for my purposes of wanting to try understanding how to peel/split and all the rest and it went perfectly. Once I scanned the Satori the app instantly notified me I had BTC, BCH, BTD, BTG etc....available and it handled it all for me. I haven't tried any other coins as this was just an experiment to learn how to peel a collectible etc. But so far the mobile app and the Ballet itself is 5 stars! If I ever have any other coins to try I'll definitely use the Ballet wallet. And I speak very highly of it when someone asks now that I've had some time with it and realized just how easy it made everything work etc...Good luck the rest of the way as the teaser pics look good.

1) It will be interesting to see the interest level on the 12.5 blocks since those have been done albeit a bit different(BTCC vs Ballet) same but different. ;D
2) I have a feeling the 6.25BTC blocks will be far more popular but that's just going off it being cheaper/more affordable and it will be something entirely unique etc....

Either way I'm glad you plan to offer some more cool collectibles! Good luck with it all!

iBHK8

The scratch off spot concerns me immensely on these. With a 1BTC premium this thing needs to stay MINT to ever hope to retain any sort of value in the secondary market. An accidental scratch or rub ruins this in such an easy way due to having a scratch n sniff on the block.

Nice job, Bobby!  Please consider doing a smaller denomination given the high cost of these.  One of the really nice things about your pocker chips(besides the high quality) was that they came in small denominations which made them very accessible.

Very nice, congratulations bobby & team!


"Yes, these Blocks will contain virgin BTC straight from the coinbase reward (zero hops), and includes all transaction fees in the block. This means that besides this being a truly limited series, each and every block will be unique, and have it's own block height, and unique block reward BTC amount. The blocks will be funded directly by our mining pool partner, to be announced later. (If there are additional mining pools who want to join us and cooperate, please send me private message or email.)

However, in terms of sales, you pay for the Block and the BTC separately. Once you pay, we will send you the empty block (in late April), and then once you confirm receiving it, the mining pool will mine the virgin BTC to your block, as a separate transaction. You WILL need to pre-pay a deposit, and extra BTC will be refunded to you after the mining is done."

I'm maybe missing something here, but how can the empty blocks be sent out before the actual blocks (& rewards) are mined as these need printing/engraving onto the said blocks?

I guess that the blocks have been already mined, they are then sent to the addie on the physical block after it has been delivered, rather than being mined directly to the addie on the physical block, I'm not very up on the mining side of things TBH

it is cool and nice but i like it more with the hologram in the btcc...it looks more shiny and beautifulf imo   ;D buut not bad at all

The coins will be mined directly to the address on the physical block.

Congrats to Bobby and Team! These are very beautiful.

It would be amazing to see coins and chips with lower denominations with freshly mined BTC, as many of us cannot afford whole blocks.
I hope you can make these in the near future. I think you would have many customers here.

the square dimensions of the blocks are to emulate the idea of a physical "bitcoin block" containing the block reward.

More importantly, this is a continuation of my Bitcoin Blocks at my last company, BTCC.
As you all should know, I created and launched  this Bitcoin Block physical bitcoin concept in 2016 at BTCC (it was actually conceived of in 2015).

I have since sold that company, and the new owners closed down the BTCC Mint business as they no longer wanted to continue with it.

Now that I'm with Ballet, I'm relaunching this product, and Ballet's Bitcoin Block is a continuation of the product offered by us at BTCC Mint.
We've purposely kept the design the same (including the material, the size / weight, and even the packaging will be similar).

Yes, I'm copying myself from 4 years ago.

For those reasons above, we purposely didn't use stainless steel, but happy to look into that for future new products.

thanks,
Bobby

1) You're right about BTCC having already done that. See my post above, as that was me at BTCC launching BTCC Mint products. I was the creator and coin maker, so to me, the Bitcoin Block concept is indeed unique, though I've brought it over from my past company to now.

2) Thanks for your input.

3) It's a continuation of BTCC Mint's Bitcoin Block. So some collectors want a continuation, and collect blocks from different periods in Bitcoin's history.

thanks,
Bobby

Yes, you have a good point here.

We made an explicit decision to go with Ballet's new 2FKG technology, so that we break down the private key to manufacture them in 2 difference facilities (the encrypted private key under the top sticker, and the BIP38 passphrase under the scratch off). We think this is an overall improvement to the old method from BTCC Mint, which was a 1-factor private key, all done by me locally.

In any case, this design and architecture is what we have with the new 2020 Bitcoin Block.

thanks,
Bobby

We are preparing the product info pages, and will have the ordering process up soon (in about 24-48 hours).


Also, is there interest here to auction off the first few of the lower serial numbers?

How many should we auction off? How many people are interested?

This is what I can't get my head around, you are sending out empty (non-funded) physical blocks but they have the actual block number mined with rewards printed or engraved on them, how can this be if these are then mined directly to the physical blocks later, i don't get it?

Hi Otoh,

Very good point.  I'm glad you discovered this issue, which I previously didn't get to address:

We are sending out empty blocks, however, the block height and reward amount on the block will be done this way:
 
It'll be custom made high-end raised-lettering stickers, to be applied and affixed onto the blocks by the customer after the block is mined. (We will send these out to customers in a follow on delivery, after the block is mined.)

Even though this is do-it-yourself (DIY) step, it's good quality and easy to do.  We've already tested this process and the results are very good.

Details will be provided later, after we launch the product. Thanks for allowing me to bring up this important point.

thanks,
Bobby

Should of course have been mentioned from the start, certainly doesn't appeal to me, but keeping an open mind for now.

So these are not designed to be bearer instruments like BTCC or Casascius coins/blocks, just some stick on raised letter strips to show what's meant to be their actual block mined and rewards value, which don't sound at all tamper proof to me  :-\

I'm not sure I understand.... the 2020 Bitcoin Blocks are indeed bearer instruments (once funded by the mining pool).

The only difference is that we are selling and shipping it empty, and then later, it'll be loaded by the mining pool.

Yes, as for the full look and feel, to see the final block height and amounts, there will indeed be a DIY step.
These details and everything else will indeed be properly explained once we launch the product.

We talk about tamper-evident, and not tamper-proof. (or are you referring to some other aspect of something being tamper proof?)

The only true tamper evident component of the block is the sticker covering the encrypted private key, and the BIP38 passphrase underneath the scratch-off part.
The raised lettering showing the block height and block reward BTC amount is a display nicety, as in the end, it's all about what the balance shows for that address on the actual blockchain.

I'm only giving you a preview here, and sorry for not clearing on all of the details during this "tease" phase. (Hope the forum members here appreciates the early access information here.)

thanks,
Bobby

"The raised lettering showing the block height and block reward BTC amount is a display nicety, as in the end, it's all about what the balance shows for that address on the actual blockchain."

But short of pealing them how does anyone know that particular physical 'block' is what it purports to be in the easily spoofed (I assume) DIY stick on block number and rewards ID part of the physical block?

Um, more like early access to the lack of the most critical information here if you ask me :(

The product picture you posted doesn't show a DIY stick on block number/reward strip (or at least nothing like I'd expect to be able to achieve on a first attempt), so it's misleading & for a > $82k product this really doesn't look too promising to me at all  :'(

https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPcaauAV.jpg&t=611&c=16tgUNuNjggX6g

Otoh, you're a long-time and respected member of this community, so I'm a bit confused by your line of questioning, regarding how anyone can tell a physical bitcoin collectable is what it purports to be? if you don't believe the craft of the physical bitcoin collectable (the design, the fit & finish, the actual metal coin/bar, the certificates & instructions, the packaging, etc), then by definition, you can't prove the coins are there until you peel the sticker and try to move the coins on the blockchain using the private key. Right?

On our Bitcoin Block, the sticker is tamper evident, and using the Ballet Crypto mobile app, you will be able to scan the QR code on the Bitcoin Block, and it will show you the details of the block, including the block height, and the block reward amount.  The app will easily allow you to check the balance and the USD value (or other fiat currency), and one day, if you choose to move the coins, the app will allow for that as well.  

The coins are store on this Bitcoin Block via the passphrase-encrypted private keys, and it's industry standard (BIP38) and non-proprietary to Ballet.

Maybe please clarify your concern here?

And regarding the lack of critical information, it was certainly not my intent to deceive or be purposely lacking of critical information. We are busy getting this product prepared for a launch on our website. I had thought that this audience would appreciate the early photo tease and my early conversations with you all, to describe the details.  But again, communications is a process that takes time.  (Sorry I didn't have 100% of the information to dump into a long post here on day 0.)

Thank you for your patience...

thanks,
Bobby

Regarding that image of the Bitcoin Block, we've done our best to render it like how it'll actually be.

The DIY stick-on numbers (block height and block reward amount) will indeed look like that, as currently shows in the photo render.
You'll just have to wait if you want to see the final photos... but unfortunately, we don't have that available yet.

thanks,
Bobby

Thanks for your response Bobby, it's 2 AM now for me so I'll let others comment or not on your offering regarding the now disclosed DIY part of it Etc, still wishing the best for all your efforts in the crypto space of course...

Thank you Otoh.  Appreciate your comments, your good questions, and your support.

I'm in Las Vegas, so it's 2:00 am for me as well.  Good night.

We are working hard to get the web pages launched by Wednesday afternoon. The ordering process should be up and ready by then as well.

This audience, on the collectables forum, will be the first to know about this product. It'll launch on:
https://block.balletcrypto.com/
(It just redirects back to the main home page for now, but once launched, that'll be the entry point for the Bitcoin Block.)

Once launched, please be patient with us as we fix minor errors and add more clarifications to anything that we may have omitted. 
I appreciate the constructive feedback from everyone on this forum, so that we can have a good launch, and build a great product for everyone.

Some additional insights to share with everyone:
- Since early 2019, after starting Ballet, I've wanted to carry over from BTCC Mint and create a 2020 version of the Bitcoin Block, so that we can have blocks both before and after the block reward halving even in May.
- For this Bitcoin Block, we got started in earnest in January, refining the designs, etc.  However, the coronavirus situation in China put a pause in the work and we didn't get to resume on late February. There were some significant delays, but thankfully, we'll still make it in time, for having blocks made before the halving event in mid-May.
- Thankfully, the titanium hardware is already in manufacturing, and we will receive our first samples soon. (The downside is that we won't have time to make additional changes...)
- There are 2 major differences from how we made the Bitcoin Blocks back at BTCC Mint in 2016:
   1) We are using Ballet's new 2FKG process, to have 2-factor private keys, instead of the single private key during BTCC Mint days. We strongly believe that this is a *safer* approach to manufacturing physical bitcoin collectables. This means that the manufacturing will take place in two countries (China and USA), and this there's additional time delay built in, to transport the parts around the world, especially during this coronavirus shutdown time.
   2) We decided to ship the blocks to customers first, before mining the bitcoins into it. The reason is simple: the value is too great now, to allow for shipping loaded physical bitcoins. There are all sorts of insurance and customs and tax issues, if the product was sold & shipped as loaded. Now, we're able to just sell the empty Bitcoin Block, where the customer pays the mining pool for the loading of the block, all done after the customer receives the block. Again, this also adds time to the process.

In any case, the main point is that we are cutting it close, in terms of scheduling.  There is a real concern that we won't be able to make that many blocks pre-halving, given the timing constraints as revealed above.

So this is genuine advice:
Order now if you definitely want one. Quantities are limited. Every pre-halving Bitcoin Block will be made-to-order, and we will NOT create any excess inventory for sale later to walk-up customers.

And yes, we know it's expensive. A cheaper version will come after the halving...

thanks,
Bobby

I was wondering why to have the private key printed on the sticker, instead of engraving it on the titanium block, and cover it with a sticker/holo etc. (for extra durability, since paper sticker/print could deteriorate). Would the engrave part might be considered a security flaw? (i.e. someone is able to see the private key through x-rays etc.). Prolly cover it with a titanium sticker? (LOL  :D). With a 1BTC premium (and the 12.5BTC+ loaded value), I was looking for a better (more durable) storage solution for the private key.

Since this is a collectible (that can be traded in the secondary market) and not a private wallet (for personal usage), I was wondering if the 2 stickers private key approach (similar to the ballet wallets) is an appropriate implementation here. (i.e. peel the top sticker, view the private key underneath, and attach it back again).

Concerning the "scratch off spot", what if you replace the "scratch-off" material, with a (more durable) hologram sticker. Scratch off the area is a one-way process (it can not be undone). Hence, peeling the hologram will have the same effects.

I agree with @teeGUMES that those scratch-off surfaces (if it's the same scratch-off material as the ballet wallet) can be easily, unintentionally and accidentally scratched.

just my 2 satoshis

Hi tweetious, good feedback. Thanks for giving me a chance to address these important questions.

We are purposely reusing our tried and tested product technology from the Ballet REAL Series of physical cryptocurrency wallets. The main reason is to reduce manufacturing uncertainty and prevent delays.

Regarding the scratch-off surfaces, we will do our best to keep it intact and high quality.

The stickers on the Block is already tamper evident, and will leave behind a hexagon pattern if pealed. It cannot be reaffixed to the block without leaving a visual trail.

Most importantly (as mentioned in my previous posts), we want to preserve the spirit of the past 2016 version of the Bitcoin Block from BTCC Mint days, and make minimal changes. Yes, two important changes were made (the 2FKG and shipping blocks empty), but we felt those were necessary.

thanks,
Bobby

Hi Bobby,
Just an idea. Please take it or leave it. First congrats to yourself and your loyal team trying hard to bring something sexy back to our world. I'm a huge fan of Ballet and BTCC as I own some items of both your Ballet and BTCC projects. I want your team to all succeed. Having said all that do you think it might be better to skip the pre-halving 12.5 blocks and considering you've already done them previously(sure it's a bit different but they've been done) but with the the 12.5 blocks being so rushed and not being able to get the best and most proper feedback from this community on what we'd all or atleast the majority of us would want to see implemented into the future project(s) and then use this feedback to make a much more desirable and better post halving product with the 6.25 block and even perhaps more variations? Just food for thought. Thanks again and appreciate all you're trying to do for the community!

iBHK8

Otoh,

We've soft-launched for everyone in this forum to preview and order:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5237283.0

and regarding your concern about the DIY part of applying the stick-on lettering for the Block Height and Block Reward, I've posted detailed photos and videos here. Hope you like it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5237283.msg54140873#msg54140873

Be sure to watch the 2 short video clips!

thanks,
Bobby

Im really trying not to be overly critical here, and to be honest this product is something I personally couldn't afford, however, the whole DIY side of this doesn't seem to be ideal at this price point. As someone who eyeballs for fine detail I dont think I could deal with this kind of imperfection on such a highly priced product.

At first glance, everything looks OK bit on closer inspection, pictured below, you can see the blobs of glue coming out from the numbering. Whilst i have no doubts that these are extremely secure, I cant see how this method wont be somewhat messy....

https://i.ibb.co/kGDxFFQ/download-19.jpg (https://ibb.co/kGDxFFQ)

https://i.ibb.co/BjQ4c1k/Screenshot-20200402-092845-Slack.jpg (https://ibb.co/BjQ4c1k)

The reason I bring this up is because of the nature of this being a DIY product, people will have to do this part themselves and if you cant do it without looking less than perfect, I cant see others doing it any more cleanly.  Even when it comes to centering the numbering for final positioning, I would hate myself if it was even 1mm off!

Hopefully you can see this as the constructive criticism it is intended as.
Regards, Corrosive

What's to keep the two facilities from colluding and breaking the security?  Or a hacker accessing both separately?  I preferred it when you were the point of failure and your reputation was on the line.  Now the attack surface is bigger and that's not necessarily desirable.

80K trusting the private key is not compromised in the process...

Imho one should create their own private keys.

Sorry, but you are wrong.  The attack surface is not smaller.  Before it was 1 man taking complete ownership of the process and staking his reputation on it.  Not only do you now have to trust Bobby, but you have to trust the two "facilities" he's contracting the work out to.  It's not like it was with BTCC where Bobby had complete control of the keys.  There are now two additional systems in play here generating media using the keys and their passphrases and using people and computers to do it.  You have to trust that the people behind the facilities won't collude, won't be compromised by an outside party and that they will destroy every trace of the data they handled when the job is done.  I'm surprised Bobby even went this direction.

Hi Hellot.

You're obviously a very well respected member of this collectibles community on BitcoinTalk forum. And thus your comments carry a lot of weight in people eyes. For that reason, I am compelled to respond in length, to clear up the confusion and potential misunderstanding. It may not have been your intent, but your comments are creating FUD here (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt), so I will clear things up for everyone.

First of all, I know you to be a long-time member of this community, as I recall you were my customer of my BTCC Mint products. Thank you for support us during those years from 2016-2018, and for your continued recognition of the BTCC Mint products in the secondhand market in the subsequent years. It's good to have loyal customers and fans, and I feel honored.

That said, I don't think I know you personally, and I don't recall knowing your background. If we've happen to have already met in person, then my apologies in advance, for not making the connection between your face and your username here.

As a seasoned CoinMaker, I do have quite some extensive experience making physical bitcoin collectibles and protecting users' private keys. I've done it professionally for 3 years, from 2016 to 2018, and I personally built the BTCC Mint business, and made over 22,000 coin/bars/chips, containing over 8,700 BTC in value. I take pride in having done a good job, with zero safety lapses and security issues. In essence, BTCC Mint coins have never been hacked or "swept", and they never will in the future -- you have my word here. And the fact that people found my BTCC Mint products to be innovative and high quality; that's just a cherry on top.

In comparison, I dare assume that you probably do NOT have this level of CoinMaker experience as compared to me. If I am mistaken, and that you have legitimate CoinMaker experience rivaling my background, then please share, and I would gladly tip my hat to you.

As the CoinMaker for BTCC Mint, I indeed was fully involved for every step of the private keys under each and every coin/bar/chip. This has been elaborately documented over the years, as I've made many postings here explaining the process, and how I took operational security seriously, to prevent any hacking, theft, and sweeping of coins. Even though I was the CoinMaker and I personally generated all of the private keys (using offline computers and software), the manufacturing process did indeed involve other people -- namely my trusted staff in the BTCC Mint team. (I hope you did NOT wrongly assume that I personally and single-handedly created, packed, and shipped all 22,000+ coins/bars/chips.) For the critical steps, where the private keys are "exposed to air", I only involved the most trusted of my team members, and I was practically always there to supervise the process and procedures. And as history will prove itself over time, there were no rogue employees making surreptitious recordings and photographs of the private keys.

So technically speaking, if there were dishonest employees, thieves, or a corrupt CoinMaker, the BTCC Mint coins would end up not being safe at all, and would have likely already have been swept and hacked by now. The value of all BTCC Mint products, at over 8,700 bitcoins, would exceed USD $60 million today, and at the peak of Bitcoin in late 2017, that's close to $200 million (including all fork coin values).

At Ballet, through much brainstorming, research & development, we have come up with an even BETTER solution that what the market offers: the 2-factor private key approach to physical bitcoins, AND with a multicurrency solution. This has NEVER been done before, and we have actually filed multiple US patents on this invention. (Our first patent, U.S. Pat. 10,554,401, was issued just two months ago, on February 4, 2020.) The main point is that now, we are able to make physical bitcoin collectibles, using a 2-factor private key, where the private key components can be made in 2 geographically separate facilities, by two different sets of personnel, to make the process and resulting physical bitcoins even SAFER than before.

As an veteran CoinMaker and expert in this field (I've been in Bitcoin for 9 years now, since early 2011), I can and will attest that generally speaking, a two-factor private key is SAFER than a single-factor private key solution for physical bitcoins.

I am the Founder and CEO of Ballet, and I invented this Two-Factor Key Generation (2FKG) approach to making physical bitcoin wallets, with the dual manufacturing location aspect. I created this process to improve on an already great process at BTCC Mint. Without a doubt, I can tell you that our new 2FKG products are at the least, at the same highest safely level as done compared to BTCC Mint. You have my word here.

And to further address your comments:


The two facilities you're referring to are both at my company. My USA company is called Ballet Global Inc. It's a Delaware Corporation, headquartered in Las Vegas, NV, where we have our manufacturing, packaging, and logistics facility. The other facility is in Shanghai China, where I run the company Shanghai Mintery Networks Limited, a wholly foreign-owned company setup in China, that is 100% owned by Ballet Global Inc. These two facilities you're referring to, are NOT third party contracting facilities the likes of FoxConn, etc. In other words, we do NOT contract out our manufacturing. We do all of the critical steps in-house, done by our own employees (and not done by some nameless / faceless factory worker). As I'm only one person, for obvious reasons I can only be at one location at any one time, but rest assured: I have personally designed the manufacturing process for both of these locations, and I am personally involved with all of the critical steps at each of these two facilities.

Hellot, since we have not met in person, and I have not give you the tour or a detailed description of the manufacturing process at Ballet, I urge you to please do not spread any unsubstantiated rumors and FUD about Ballet. Like I have already offered several others on this forum, I openly invite you to visit both facilities and learn about our process first hand, so you can get a better and strong understanding of why I truly believe that Ballet's solution is top-notch.


There is no such thing as having complete control of the private keys, unless literally, I did everything from start to finish.  This did NOT happen at BTCC Mint, as I did involve my select trusted employees for several of the critical steps where the private key was "exposed to air". (And besides, even Mike Caldwell openly admits that he got help from others in making his Casascius coins.)


Yes, correct, but like I've said earlier: I personally designed and oversee all of that process, and I still am the single person doing the key generation at both locations, running the program, adding human entropy, and generating the BIP38 passphrases (in Las Vegas), and generating the Encrypted Private Keys (in Shanghai). Without revealing too many of our trade secrets here, I can assure you that I'm directly involved at each of the critical steps, such that I can monitor that no one else is able to surreptitiously secretly record down the private key components.


Again, I disagree with your logic here.

As told before, my whole staff of the most trusted key personnel at BTCC Mint is now with me here at Ballet. The people involved in the most critical procedures at Ballet, are the exact same people who helped me while at BTCC Mint.

Your theory that my staff in Ballet's Shanghai office can secretly collude with the Ballet staff in the Las Vegas office is preposterous. My staff are well compensated, have equity stock ownership in the company, and are considered founding team members. If they can steal the private keys at Ballet through collusion, then by your logic, they could have just stolen the private keys while at BTCC all WITHOUT doing ANY collusion.

My conclusion is simple, and this is an EXPERT opinion:
The attach surface vector is MUCH smaller now at Ballet, through the use of two-factor private keys, made at two different facilities around the world.


Well, all I can say is that you made that judgement without knowing me, without having met me in person, and without truly understanding the process at Ballet.

Now that I've given you a deeper explanation, I hope I've changed your mind.
We have extensive operational procedures at Ballet, involving many laborious steps, to make private key security of the utmost importance.  This is all possible because of my 3+ years of CoinMaker experience, one of the most trusted in our space.

Thank you all for reading this long post. I felt compelled to write this extensive post as I don't want the misinformation to taint the image and reputation of Ballet. Time will prove us right, and that's how we will continue to build our reputation.

thanks,
Bobby

Hi，Bobby lee

I am interested in the post-halving Blocks,with 6.25+ BTC .I am looking forwards to seeing it. :)

Trusting the private key generation for a 14 btc item by random strangers on the internet sounds kind of risky.

 
Thanks for the detailed response.  It was not my intent to spread FUD, I was responding to your description of the manufacturing process and it looks like I wrongly assumed you were using third parties for the printing process and then assembling them in house.  I apologize for that, I don't usually make assumptions, I should have asked more questions.  From your response it sounds like you have adequate control over the process and I trust you are taking all steps to limit exposure to the secrets and taking necessary steps to ensure that the information cannot be assembled and broken at a later date.  Thanks for continuing to make collectible coins.
  
Edited this after review because I did ask the right questions.
  

The TRUST is strong with you, young Skywalker.  :D




Thanks for clearing that up.
So we need to trust your anonymous employees...
Luckily it never happens that anonymous employees get other jobs, 5 or 10 years from now.

Hi Corrosive,

Thanks for your constructive feedback.

I've since posted a detailed update in the other thread dedicated to the Bitcoin Block:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5237283.msg54308384#msg54308384 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5237283.msg54308384#msg54308384)

You'll see my explanation about these "stickers".
It's actually should have been more appropriately described as "electroforming metal sticker badges".  See the above post for more details.

thanks,
Bobby