Bitcoin Forum

I see a lot of scam busters on here doing a great job tracking alt accounts.

How long do you think it will be before people start framing each other by posting addresses that are not theirs?

True, they are going to post an address that they control to get the coin.   But if they don't really care about the airdrop (or whatever) they can just use an alt account to post the address of someone they don't like and both accounts are banned.

I guess I should take this opp to say I've never engaged in any activity here that required me to post an address for payment.  :)

For this reason we can not say for sure that two or more accounts are connected just because same address posted from those accounts or someone quoted someone else's post which looks they were following up some comments. I have already seen few cases and my standing was pretty much looking to where these ends.

I believe such cases must have already happened. This is less of a problem than you think. If somebody enters some shitcoin bounty with my address, is anybody reasonable going to believe it was me? [1] The same goes for you and others. Most affected members would be other bounty spammers, sig. spammers on various levels. Behavioural analyses makes this less of a problem.

In >95% of the cases that people were connected this way, they were actually connected. Are you saying such rates of accuracy are inadequate? :-\

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[1] There was a case where a long time ago where Yahoo asked me linking me to some spreadsheet, I had no idea what the project was nor did I enter its airdrop.

I never done the math percentage but unless there are some other facts and evidence is obvious then it's a hard call, at least for me.

That spreadsheet example is a good one.

How is it a hard call if it was almost always correct ??? This does not make sense to me. You should exercise caution when evaluating, but you should also keep in mind its correctness. The average user being caught this was has no idea what they are doing let alone ways of evading.

Alternative identifications IMO for this case are:

- The language used, or the style of English (if they have never posted locally).
- Forum boards that they usually discuss (based on posts)
- Airdrop history followed by both accounts (based on post history).
- Original ERC20 balances from both accounts (based on the addresses of other wallets previously used).

I said earlier that I have not done the math yet so I can not come to a conclusion. I am also not invalidating your point of judgement. If my memory is not too bad then I have seen few cases where I could not make a clear call.

Yeah, it's can happen of many user, especially for newbie account.
All rank can join in bounties, it's why so easy to make new account and post other user address.


I think it's why we have meta board to explain if he was never cheating a campaign or never create alt account.
If he get banned or red trust from DT user, but he didn't make a new thread about his banned account. It's clear he is agree if he cheating in this forum.

As far as I know there are programmers here and maybe they could somehow make a script that could search all users whom are active for 3 to 6 months and what bitcoin addresses are they posting in campaigns. The idea is to get all user posts that has the term "Bitcoin Address" and the 34 characters followed and if those characters (the wallet address) can be found on the forum with another user posted it. I knew it would be a hard program to make but it would be worth it for the management somehow.

Correct, but I am talking about cases where we were really wrong in the end (this is a subset of the set of all the times we were wrong because this includes cases that we do not know about). Sometimes they are inconclusive sure, but I would not doubt its superb accuracy (is far from perfect, but no tool is perfect). We make use of what little we are given here.  :-X

Perhaps from now on I will try to follow the reputation board a little more than before. :-D

If you care for your health, then this is not the wisest decision. :D You're welcome to the party.

In cases like this have happened, account A took the address and profile of another person, posting to various campaigns.
Example:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5236686.msg54127767#msg54127767

But it can be seen from the campaign Spreadsheet, when the prize manager does not accept both of them or account A only posts the Application once, after which it disappears.
And the main account can give red/neutral if it's not the main Alt account.

For example: Account A takes someone else's et address and slanders in various campaigns / fraud.

If trading: I exchange xxx coins with account B.

It is known here that the account has a trading relationship or takes someone else's eth address.

Different, if viewed from the results of different campaign tokens sent to the same address, but different accounts, that is clearly an Alt account.

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There are actually three options to resolve your doubt vod.

In detecting them the same person (one user) Alt, native.
One:
Prepare a Spreadsheet sheet, to prove they are Alt connected.

1. Example: Spreadsheet: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5232726.msg54031548#msg54031548

Here uses a different address.
That is: address A is used in a different campaign by an Alt account, to most they use one or two addresses, but those who use the same Alt remain.

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2. The second:
Blockhain: etherscan.io/address: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2544574.msg54091574#msg54091574

Here proves they send coins to the same address round and round and continue to do day after day.

of course additional evidence is needed: telegram, twitter, facebook etc.

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After all this was published with accurate evidence, they appeared and said: that was my grandmother, my aunt, my wife, my sister-in-law, etc.

Done.

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If the Alt account that is blocked is driven by this rule:


Example; https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2544574.msg54081311#msg54081311
Instead they create even more. While the rules are clear.

Some people obey, some ignore their meanings: missing one grows a thousand, a silly saying used by many militaries.
And don't forget again your Bpip is very helpful in this case, you are a genius.

On the other hand, identifying alts with connection of addresses can go wrong also. For example, I have not participated in Mb8coin bounty but I have purchased some from bounty hunters before listing. Now, if I had participated in the bounty and received coins from them too in the same address, would you call me bounty cheater? Not necessarily but that's the truth. Connected in address = Bounty cheater which sometimes is not the case. Posting an address should not be the only case to call someone  bounty cheater but that can be one of some other criteria.

Stop sig. spam posting. I have answered the same together with Royse777.

Here is a recent thread where one user is asking why he got banned because he didn't do anything wrong.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5238000.0

Turns out he has at least 6-7 additional alt accounts based on the connection that was made between the ETH addresses that were used. He claims one account is not his, another one belongs to his girlfriend, and for the rest...well he was set up and framed. Quite an interesting read.  

Actually very easy, and you don't even need machine learning.

Remove the quotes, separate post into an  space delimited array and then find the values that match the string parameters.


Thanks old timer.  I built it, but IB gave it life and credibility with a design and then SM helped out with issues I couldn't solve quickly.  I've posted this before but it's nice to see everything calculating properly again.  :)


Yeah, they all say that. 

That has actually occurred in the past (mainly in the ^{Mk I} and ^{Mk II} Known Alts threads) - users were slapped with DT1 negative trust and then "asked" to post a signed message with the wallet address that was used.  No signed message = scammer & Red Paint ^TM sticks.  I can't recall the last time it occurred, but it's always on the cards.

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(One of the many reasons I'm trying to use vanity generated wallet addresses for the various SigCamps I've signed up for)

When I stared off here, I did some (small amount of) monkeying around with airdrops and bounties. I recall using other’s people’s posts as a template, by copying their post and replacing the data with mine. At one point I did not replace the ETH address, and although it didn’t take me long to see the mistake, chances are that there are quite a few that will follow the monkey see monkey do routine, and leave some of the data unedited on the post they copied from someone else and used it as a template.

Probably recurrence using the same linking social accounts or addresses should be taken into account to link Bitcointalk accounts. A one-off is not really heavy proof.

I have also some confusion about this issue. And sometimes I have investigated mine by own. so that I can report it to the community. Because It's really possible to do by some bad person who does not like me. But I think no high-rank member will do it. Most of the cases it might be done by some shady and red trusted members.

Revenge knows no boundaries. Some high-rank could always go through great lengths such as creating a new account using a VPN on another device.

So far I haven't seen any cases where a member got tagged solely just because the other user have posted the same address as he was, I always see additional evidences such us the same Telegram account, addresses are connected to one wallet, same date of registration, same topics being posted, same bounties being joined but just tagging a member and another account with just the same address alone shouldn't be enough to convince any DT member to tag those accounts this wouldn't really be fair for the member if he is being framed for something. Also if they are guilty you'll see the common answers like "we are a group of family","we are friends" so these types of alibis are a sure red flag of what a bounty cheater says.

I've thought about it before, but it doesn't seem to be a big deal since many people here have a lot of experience in detecting connected accounts, so I did not ask about it. There are many factors to consider whether two accounts are connected to each other? It was mentioned above, so I will not repeat. The problem is that even though the accounts are proven to be interconnected, it is still not important, no problem (I have never agreed with this opinion, but I have to admit it). The most concrete example I've ever had, the connection between RapTarX and Little Mouse, it has been proved. But nothing happened to them, no negative trust, nothing. Many agree that as long as the two accounts are not cheat on the same signature campaign, it is not cheating, and one person has the right to use the two accounts to participate in two different signature campaigns  :D It means the connected accounts are still safe  :D

We go to another case, suppose the user makes a connection between the two accounts deliberately with a sub account, then participates in the same signature campaign with the person they hate. It can also happen, but at a very low rate. Signature campaigns require certain ranks, in my opinion the lowest is Full member is necessary. No one will waste a Full member account just to sabotage others, the value of Full member is not small to waste when the merit system has worked very well. Even if someone defies to make, nothing to be sure because we can still consider other factors. So I believe this is not a big problem if this forum really works in a fair way  ;)

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Hit me if I'm wrong somewhere  :D it took me more than 5 minutes to present it

I would totally believe jt was you.
You have promoted scams before
Atriz admitted knowingly spamming for a scam and wanted to get paid so stuck with it. You and he traded 50 merit chunks for spamming the same shit project.

So your arguement does not hold water atrix. Lol

Yes this can happen and can be a huge problem.

There is no proof of alt  you can never prove it is the same person.  Even style analysis can be reverse engineered to provide strong match. Copying same receive address is of course simple

Proof of alt doesn't exist

There are ways to prove alt accounts, like if both accounts sign the same address, or one that was ever used to transfer coins between them.

But the better solution is to build a system where alt accounts have no value. 

I always take this into account. I don't believe the indicator should be the primary source of evidence of 2 (or more) accounts being connected. It can be secondary, but not primary. Posting style is arguably more effective in providing proof IMO.

A combination of the two and I would probably believe that a connection exists.

Is there a thread where we can list all of our alts in one post? I know individual accounts can be posted in the rep section, but maybe it would be useful if we had a reference section with a primary account listing all publicly admitted alts.

It does not totally fit your needs but maybe you can use it. Known Alts of any-one - A User Generated List Mk III (2020 Q2) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2544574.0)

Many thanks for recommending the Known Alts of any-one - A User Generated List ^{Mk III} (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2544574.0) thread - yes indeed you are welcome to post your alt connections there using our custom made Submission Form (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2544574.0#post_Form).

The Known Alts thread is an opportunity for users to identify their own alts, or alts of others and potentially alert others when there are scams that have occurred by those alts.  You won't be given negative trust feedback simply for having an alt as it's a widely accepted practice such as myself having a "mobile" alt.  And, for people launching crypto/games/casino etc and want a brand name for their launch.

Why would transfer of coins prove alts?

It would be unusual for alts to sign to prove they were alts unless they intended to prove that
Malboroza was correct when he responded to the claim about his alt zorrobeck
That unless you have video evidence of him posting from both accounts then he would not entertain the claim.
Even then you have twins?
Deep fakes
Siamese twin holding a basket ball high on his chest slightly off to the right hand side
Genuine multiple personalities unaware of their " friends "

That was just a joke but certainly posted address is very very weak sauce and easily faked.

Basically your question is a follow-up clue that clarifies the evidence that the account is connected after OP question about posting the same address even though it's not the owner.

Not all, but most have been proven. Therefore it's necessary to track their transaction history. Their wallet ever accepts or stores altcoins that are at least 80% the same and transfers all of them to one another or collects several altcoins to one main wallet/exchange with the aim of making it easier to sell.

Proof will be stronger if they surrender (not oppose) the accusations or reg tag they have received.

I can assure you that what you describe has happened (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1072408.0) years ago, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it continues to happen. Luckily, in the above case, the imposter made a mistake, although that could have been by design.

One way to prevent yourself from falling for this is to confirm that whatever was received was valuable and was actually spent. The order addresses were posted may allow you to rule out an impostor. Someone trying to attract attention is a good indicator they are an imposter.

You really need to think critically when deciding if a posted addresses is evidence that two accounts are alts.

That person hasn't posted in this thread - where are you quoting from?  Please elaborate on your/his claim.

Honestly Vod, I have shared this thought too and you're correct to the last letter. This is a dangerous time and tide we live in with scammers and blood letting goons everywhere.

Although this is slightly different — At a time in the past I made a suggestion on an Altcoin thread to BM to help curb cheating and scamming. It was simple - BM should ask all participants to update their profiles with their wallet address and then update their spreadsheets from that address. That way, scammers won't he able to use other people's accounts for social media tasks.

Sorry, let me rephrase.

If one account signs address A and the other signs address B and then we ever see coins moving from A to B it's a good indication of alt accounts.

Again, this is where technology will help.  Like the plagiarism bot, a good algorithm can detect alt accounts from many years ago.  Unlike the plagiarism bot, the results won't prove harm, and will need to be reviewed.

No.


OK, even I'm lost on what you are asking on this one...

If user Alice signs wallet address 1aaaa... and also signs wallet address 1bbbb... and then user Bob posts that wallet address, then it's a sure sign that Bob is Alice.  If Bob is asked to sign wallet 1b... but can't then Bob is using Alice's wallet address to impersonate them.  If Bob *can* sign 1bbbb... then Bob is Alice.

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If user Alice signs wallet address 1aaaa... and Bob signs wallet address 1bbbb... then they could send Crypto to each other all day long and it doesn't prove anything except maybe they have satoshis to burn on TX fees.

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IF on the other hand Alice signs wallet address 1aaaa... and Bob signs wallet address 1bbbb... and then BOTH wallets are in the send side of a TX - then that proves Alice and Bob are alts as they are using wallet addresses from the same wallet.

e.g.


The only way both wallet addresses can be a part of the outgoing transaction is if they are part of the same wallet.

How? One solution would be to make sure all accounts have no value, but that goes against the forum's mission to be "as free as possible". Another solution would be KYC, but that's not going to happen any time soon either (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3097811.msg32026584#msg32026584).
I haven't seen any other forum in which alt accounts were a problem, or even a thing people used for that matter. Bitcointalk is different than any other forum I've ever seen in so many ways, and in general that's a good thing.

I'd say that's a good indication of a trade taking place ;)

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I don't tag users based on one of them posting the other's address, and I recommend others not to do it either. I sometimes ask myself: could this be done to my account without my knowledge? If the answer is yes, the evidence is no real evidence and whoever is blamed should get the benefit of the doubt.

If you don't return my PMs, you have to wait like everyone else.   ;)

I'd glad most have the knowledge that a simple copy/paste of an address is proof of nothing; the same as copy/paste of any information.  I'm sure the community will react the proper way if an accusation ever comes up.  


Missed this one.   That is a bad idea, since it helps people assume it is you, with something you cannot control.  You are fighting ignorance of newbies here - they won't know a vanity address is something anyone can generate.

But if they participate regularly in multiple campaigns together and all the received coins are transferred to the same address, is it another good sign? It also says that they cheated, right?
I tend to agree with you on this matter  :D considering all the factors that are needed to make the right decision, the connected account is not bad for tagged, but using the connected account for fraud is bad, can't cover up. It's hard to find common ground in this matter  ::)

Wouldn't KYC make alt accounts more valuable?  The more verification, the more you can sell it for.

Well, technically if all accounts are valued more, but alts since they wouldn't be able to "double" kyc, it would make them less valuable. Right?

Of course you would have to pass a KYC every few weeks to avoid account sale. I totally see this happening  ;D

That known alt thread looks a bit complicated, and it is fairly long. I own JetCash .com (https://JetCash.com), and when I get a more comfortable connection, I'll list my alts on a page there. Any account that purports to be me, but isn't listed on that page, will be a scam. I'll start a thread that just lists alts, and doesn't include any comment or discussion posts, this should make it easier to check for admitted alts.

Which PM did I overlook?

Possibly. But usually that happens with bounty spammers who spam millions of Facebook and Twitter links for some worthless tokens. Honestly, I gave up caring if they "cheat" the campaign that produces so much spam and only wants to sell their worthless tokens.

It is the general condition of all altcoin projects  :D I was very interested in altcoins in 2017 and before, but after participating in a series of bullshit projects, I ignored all of them  ::) If I remember correctly, I have more than 50 shit coins in my wallet, 5% of them are valuable on the exchanges, but the prices are very low. The rest are just meaningless symbols  ::) But undoubtedly fraudulent projects continue to exist now and in the future, spammers will still be there to help them advertise their project by spamming  :D

Detailed is the word I would have used - not sure why you would want to reinvent the wheel.  There is a search box function at the top of each page of the forum - you can quickly search for any user listed in any of the three threads quite quickly.  (There are other ways of searching for user info, but you must have missed them when you skimmed over the complicated information).

As to going off site to find information - yeh, people have tried that in the past...

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Free plug for the original and best:

Known Alts of any-one - A User Generated List ^{Mk III} (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2544574.0)

Well, sent to you on Apr 4, but I never really asked a question, so there was no need to reply.  :)

Some low rank bounty managers "Newbie or Jr Members" seem dont care about the reputation of their accounts when managing bounty. They allow cheater to occur on bounty they manage, especially on social media campaigns such as "Twitter and Facebook". Lack of manager attention to user registration allows people to cheat in various ways in campaigns. As I got it today Cheater bounty hunters found (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5239884.msg54206703#msg54206703).

I hope we can find a solution for cases like this, and if not, maybe there will be many users who are harmed by fraudsters. POA which is proof that someone joined the original account can still be manipulated by fraudsters by sending other users POA posts when filling out forms.

What do you expect from them, people without any experience? I even believe that they are cheaters in the campaign they run. Nothing is easier than cheating on your own campaign. The projects behind that also don't seem to care about what's going on. In general, they are a chain of bullshit that resonates with each other. A true project will place more importance on recruiting members than anything, new people are never accepted there. Just ignore all that rubbish  ;)

Hiring an experienced manager could be the best solution until. Most of this  "Newbie or Jr Members" accounts you are pointing to are somewhat cheating on there own bounty budget mostly by managing the bounties by themself with less experience or with the only motive of marketing without understanding the rules around.