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Here I primarily refer to the blackjack variety of card games and similar games where you can gain advantage by counting cards, i.e. taking notice and remembering the cards which have already been seen. As far as I know, brick'n'mortar casinos are likely to kick you out once they see that you are counting cards as this is a cheat according to their books. However, and this is a tricky part, I can't fathom how anyone could reliably determine whether you are practicing this technique or not. And then, I, for one, would consider it a skill rather than a cheat

What's your take?

If I go by the books, counting cards in blackjack is not illegal if no external help is taken or if no card counting machine is used. However, casinos usually take it as a cheating because this ability gives an edge to card-counters against the house. So there are two ways to look at it. If you belong to the player fraternity, you will see it as a skill and if you belong to the gambling house, you will see it as cheating!

Yes, that's what we can start out from

But if we assume that blackjack or any other card game (say, poker) is a skill-based game, to a certain degree, then this skill necessarily takes from the house edge (provided there is a house edge, of course) since otherwise it would be a luck-only game, a game of chance. And if we think about it further, it is the casinos' approach that starts to look extremely cheaty on its own as any skill should count as a cheat to them

I wouldn't consider it dirty at all. It's a skill that shifts the house edge in your favor a bit. It isn't illegal at all, but it's pretty damn hard to pull off nowadays. The casino's will look at if you're flat betting or not and then look at when you start to increase your bets on certain hands and throw you out. They have security cameras that accomplish the same thing so you're being watched at all times.

If you can pull off counting, go for it. It's a real skill to not get caught.

How can you call that a cheat game ? If a person have a smart and sharp mind, he can remember the cards already seen and play accordingly. I will call it a skill rather than a cheat. Also how can casino kick you out, if you count the cards in your mind. They should never know whats going in your mind.  :)

I looked into this matter a little deeper now

They have actually developed approaches and techniques for checking if you are trying to pull off something like card counting. For example, if you start to bet more (i.e. increase the stakes) after more cards are seen, this is kinda a sure sign that you are counting the cards (provided your own cards are good). Otherwise, there is no logic in raising the stakes. But then raising the stakes during the game should be prohibited to make counting cards an exercise in futility

I would not consider it as a cheating because during school days what we had being taught is to remember and write down in exams and so that focus one will develop overs the years. Now in the same way by staying focus I remember the cards which are played, and which are remaining and accordingly I play the game. Also its the mind game so any would not know if they calculate int he mind and show that they do are not keeping a track of it.

taking notice and remembering the cards which have already been seen. is not card counting. That's a primary card playing sense. If you lack it, it's better not to gamble on cards.

Card counting is actually trying to remember the serial of whole deck as they get displayed and shuffled in real world casino. That's not a thing in online casino. Most of the casino has a rule against card counting and expel the ones found to be doing that. But still it's a profitable take if you are not caught. Very few people do master that art.

I think it is impossible to do in any modern casino

As I understand it, the deck is shuffled using a shuffling machine, thus you won't be able to learn and memorize the order of the cards in the deck (such a machine is also used to prevent people from colluding and that kind of thing). However, as per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting) article on the subject,


Put differently, what you consider a primary card playing sense, or what we consider a legitimate skill in a card game, casinos, on the other hand, think of as a cheat

Raising the stakes has no link to the card counting. There may be a player who is not counting the cards but still want to take risk or put pressure on the opponent by raising the stakes. He could be over confident too. There are lot of possibilities for raising the stakes and not just card counting.

Its purely a skill, one who has better memory power can count the cards even before anyone acknowledges it. So this law made by the gambling side to restrict players from winning too often but still we can't say it is not practiced by any gambler when playing a card game so yes its a skill.

So consider you are playing on an online casino where the live dealers are doing the deals and you are playing Blackjack there. Consider the two following statements:

1. The dealer users more than one deck to deal the round. Its like 5-6 decks made into a mountain of cards from where they draw. You can visit the Evolution gaming providers and you can see it right away. If you can remember that many number of cards and survive through all the rounds then props to you.

2. You are also not counting cards from the start. Completing an entire deck for the dealer and then remaining on table to complete the next mountain of cards, make it all the more difficult.

3. Often you will not be playing alone. You will have to count the cards held by the other 5players at the table too if you want to keep track. Again something that makes it more difficult. Moreover why will they wait for you to count before the next round?

Now consider an online Blackjack game where there is no physical deck being dealt out, like the one on Stake. Cards are dealt every round from a new deck. How do you expect to count card there?

What I am trying to point out is that you may count cards, but it is just something that becomes pointless in such situations.

I voted for the wrong option (sorry about that LOL) but I do believe that counting cards isn't, in any way a cheat that will cost the house a fortune over time. It's something of a skill that one could develop by playing blackjack or other card games that people get used to doing. Casinos hate this method since they think that they're being robbed of a fair game, while in reality not everyone can do it and one must have the mental capacity to remember the cards that are being tossed and are being shuffled by the dealer. Not everyone has the mental capacity of a computer capable of processing actions that are done almost seamlessly in a matter of seconds.

Counting cards or remembering the cards which have been already appeared is a true talent or skill because only few people can have this kind of talent, and it is really rare for a person to remember the previous card of your opponents that was appeared until the very end of the game. The only reason why other casinos consider this kind of talent a dirty cheat because they could get bankrupt if they let this kind of person inside a casino and won every game.

If you get caught I guess its cheating as they did make it a rule in the traditional casinos. I tried counting while playing just around with friends, its actually hard to do unless you have a very keen mind in remembering the cards. Counting cards in online casinos is a lot harder if possible. Should you discover a fair casino if you can do this. But you definitely have the skills if you can count the cards alone, using the counting card skill to work for to win is a lot better skill.

In my view if you are able to process this much information in a short period of time, it is a skill but in the eyes of a casino if you are caught counting cards then you will get a good spanking and will be thrown out of the casino. The casino always have weird rules, if you are big whale who always win then you will not the allow to play in a casino.

Nah, I wouldn't say so

When you see, i.e. literally see with your own pair of eyes which cards are being played, that you have a better hand than the other players at the table, it makes perfect sense to raise stakes to win more. Indeed, it doesn't mean that you can't raise stakes for other reasons as well but this doesn't change the fact that casinos are watching the players for this activity and consider it an indicator of "cheating" through card counting

Im not really that good on remembering things that do flashes out on a few seconds or more. Im not say this isnt a skill but you do really need to have that photographic memory which is really an advantage into these kind of game where you can able to card count and remember everything .Its cheating on House rules but it isnt in general sense.

If you do play on casino and do able to card count then better not to show yourself too obvious.Im sure that only a few do able to to perform such as this one.

worthy of mention are other techniques like shuffle tracking, ace sequencing, and hole carding---all of which (like card counting) are considered legal as long as you aren't using external devices or colluding. like card counting, they can get you banned from casinos when management catches on though.


gamblers often raise stakes after losing in a futile attempt to get back in the black. this is profitable for casinos who generally have an edge either way. they want people to raise stakes.

a better solution would be to shuffle when players increase the stakes. that gives the house their edge back.

Its a skill there are people practicing it for years to have an edge, there were masters that was able to beat casinos of thousands of dollar. I dont see it as a dirty cheat since even casinos knew it and i think its not even illegal.

There is nothing bad to count cards and related to this probability, but in anyway, it's not smart to tell other players about this  ;D Most people can't understand that your "counting" doesn't affect probability or game result, they think with counting you became "luckier" or get some advantage. This is nonsense of course, but only for people that know math even a little.

For other people it's good chance to deal with you in aggressive manner  :-\

I see counting cards as a skill and less of a cheat since it takes time before you start getting good at it and when you look at it in a different way it could be similar to those card memory games. But rules are rules when you're in a casino and even if it's not included in the rules their decision is the only thing that matters(once you're caught).

Is there anywhere written in the rules that counting the cards are not allowed. I don't think so. People think this is as a cheating but it is not mentioned anywhere. I see no harm in counting cards, if anyone has good memory he can do so.

It is a legit skill in my opinion.  The player using this method is only applying his own wit on remembering things.  He does not use any third-party program to take advantage of anyone else, this is the same as face bluffing which is considered as skill in poker.

As long as the player is not using any means of extra tools to get an advantage on his opponent but rather relying on his own wit and skill, I will never consider counting cards as a dirty cheat.


Some Casinos do think that it is illegal as one way of protecting their own profit but I think it is unfair.

A skill ofc. Cheats are acts that bring about absolute chances of winning after all. Like, there ain't even a sliver of a chance of a cheater losing if he/she doesn't want to. Casinos only think of it as a cheat because they lose profit because of it. Imagine if someone actually was like those in manga and manhwas that change their cards magically (just imagine), then that's friggin cheating. Just counting cards? Nope. Hell, that's a basic skill imo and you aren't really playing a game of cards if you haven't counted the cards left in the deck at least once. Isn't it a natural mindset? Even if the answer is a bit broad and nonspecific.

Same here, I consider it more of a skill than a cheat.

While casinos don't like them mainly because they are losing money instead of earning, card counters are not doing something illegal. They are not violating any game rule. They could be kicked out of course but there is hardly a solid evidence that proves someone is a card counter.

It is legal. Well, you are using your brain to make it possible and not some sort of device to record the cards. But of course, the casino will consider it as cheating or they can kick you out of the house because it is their way to avoid more losses when they are already at a disadvantage.

I consider counting cards as legitimate skills, which not everyone can master it. If there are casinos that consider counting cards
as cheating, I think it's just unwarranted fear. But to my knowledge most casinos are guidebooks about counting cards in blackjack
games do not include cheating. Also It's hard to know who is counting cards anyway, because counting cards are done in our minds.

a legit skill and an impressive one(even if some people claims that it is easy to learn). I can't think of a reason why someone would think counting card is a dirty trick/cheat. although counting card is not illegal I think doing it on a casino is frowned upon by casino staff or owners.

According to https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/11479/why-is-card-counting-considered-illegal-in-blackjack, card counting isn't considered illegal. This isn't cheating in any sense of the word. 994 P.2d 1151 (2000) CHEN v. NEVADA STATE GAMING CONTROL BOARD and Monte Carlo Resort & Casino:


But unfortunately, the source page of CHEN v. Nevada is not available anymore.

According to https://www.quora.com/Why-is-card-counting-considered-illegal, count cards is not illegal, as it said on that page:


But we know that the casino has their own rule so they can easily to said that is illegal or legal to the players.


So perhaps, one casino considers that counting cards are illegal, and they will ban the player from using that method. But in the other casino, counting cards is not illegal, and the player can use it as long as the player is doing without any technology. Well, that will depend on where you play the game ;)

You will find many interest article on Google about counting cards is illegal or not, and they will have a different opinion about that. We should follow the rule in the casino, so they don't ban us from the games.

The reason that the casinos are considering counting card as an illegal move is because the players have a higher chance of winning, and a player winning is something that the casino hates, they loss profits when there are constant increase in winners. Imagine mathematicians storm the casino and play blackjack and poker and other card games, this will cause an imbalance in edge because people are frequently winning rather than losing. With the rise of online platform, the card counting is getting harder.

My tip for players who knows how to do card counting is always tip the dealer, because they are willing to let you win.

but how can they know that you are counting card if you will be only silent  ? are they mind readers lol  .  and yes your saying is true    .

 this isnt something that is easy to do but it takes skill and good memory  . for sure many people or gamblers dont have that , so why would they worry about thier losses . and besides they already put up a business that they can loose too more than they win   .  so there is nothing to be blame on here   .

Even in our local gambling counting cards consider as cheating thats why this is prohibited in all cards game not only in blackjack or poker but all the card games so i stand as this is not skilled but a cheat instead.

but anyway it depends on the rules in where you are playing but if we are talking in casino houses here?then absolutely a cheat that will this be decide.

There is no harms for players obviously but it is not for the house. Casinos may ban your account if you are getting caught doing card counting. Indeed there is no written rules about this case but some shaddy casinos may accuse you do card counting even if you did not do it.
Afaik there are also some card counting devices/software, anyone use this device or software has higher chance to get banned imho since it is not a skill at all. Casino will catch it as there must be a pattern of the betting if someone use a card counting software.

There is no law that says it's illegal, but if you are in a casino, this is called illegal and they hate is, actually there's a movie about this, they are a group of students and they got caught up in the end, for them making money was easy but it's risky when you get caught.

This is the movie I'm talking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_(2008_film)

I voted skill because it's not easy to do it takes a lot of concentration and photographic memory to do this, it takes hundreds of hours to  practice this and a great concentration to do it in a real game, I don't know how can they fathom (these casinos) if you are doing this, it's just their way of bullying you if you have a good run of win.

Ofcourse it is a skill , one should understand that it is not easy to actually do all the calculations in your head , plus it's not like you will read a book and master it in one day , it takes brain capacity and experience.
One needs to understand that it is a game made by humans , why would they actually go around and label something cheating when people can find faults in it . It is just like a computer program , you think it's smooth until and unless someone proof checks it .
Well I do think no random person would be able to do that ,I myself haven't heard of someone near me doing it . It is very rare.

Personally?for me this is part of skills because we only reading thru eyes and mind not with our hands,meaning there is no physical contact so how does it come to cheating?
there are many gamblers that doing this before but now i believe that in many places this is not allowed but for a real gambler?this is a skill and not to be consider as cheating.
so there is a rule lol,what you are saying is in local gambling right?but in casino house this is not allowed.

Cheaters mostly wins in gambling that is the same thing why there are crimes happens after,i have known a friend who once cheat in gambling and got killed that same night.

Yeah maybe in big casinos this is prohibited, and just like what I put as an example which is the movie, I saw how a student got tortured by the casino security so its the law within the casino, not a law that the government has created, otherwise those cheaters that is getting caught doing this will just be brought to the jail. Also in your example, your friends got killed, so where's the law there? people from casino sometimes put the law in their hands.

You don't need to remember that much. Card counting doesn't work like what you seem to think, i.e. you don't need to remember the exact order of each card in the deck (or half a dozen decks)


See above


That makes it three statements out of the two announced. What should I make out of this?


Then again, this is not how card counting works. You don't count cards literally, one by one. You remember which cards have been shown and then reevaluate your chances based on that information

Card counting is undoubtedly a skill rather than a cheat method. It is literally very hard to count cards when dealer, waitress, and other members of casino staff converse with you as a way to break your concentration. So your skill level should be very high to count cards. They may also implement flat deals if they suspect you of card counting.

Generally, card counters avoid poor bets, watch others cards, mainly focus on counting the cards rather than conversing with others and they make unusual bets and win. So when they find someone acting weird, they'll keenly watch you and pick you up.

If there is a rule, then one should not be breaching it. But, it is an art to keep memory of it and also requires a skill which not every one of us can possess it. It is talent and should be recognized I feel so. But yes, everyone has their own set of rules and if followed is fine or else people will switch to other places.

I would advise folks to read a couple books on this topic

The first is Make It Stick by Peter Brown, and the other, which I'm reading now myself, is Moonwalking With Einstein by Joshua Foer. While the first book deals primarily with the issues of learning as such (even though "make it stick" refers to remembering here), the second book is exactly about how to remember full decks of cards and similar things

The truth is that you are not required to have some uncanny memory capabilities as every single one of us is already equipped with enough memory capacity. It is accessing that memory which sucks, and Joshua Foer's book explains in detail how memory champions, the so-called grand masters, manage to pull off these seemingly impossible feats

This casinos will never want you to win at all times, I guess they have people who can monitor those people that are card counting, this is a legit skill, because it is not easy to learn, it takes perseverance and hundreds of hours of practice, these card counters can bring a casino down if you have at least 20 card players who can do that in one casino, they are finish.

^ Definitely it is a skill because not all are capable of doing it. It is like your capability of remembering things that are only shown to you in a glance and you can quickly remember those things or pictures that saw for a bit and that is a form of skill since not all can do it at the same rate as you do. Nevertheless, if you will look on it on the side of the house edge it is considered as cheating so it will be better if you are going to use that kind of skill in blackjack make sure nobody can notice you and pretty much I am sure that some are doing the same as you do discreetly.

Photographic memory is a myth (an urban legend if you please)

However, we all have a kind of photographic memory. There were plenty of extensive studies and research into the matter that show how well regular people remember images if they were exposed to them only for half a second. In the experiments all of the subjects were able to tell the images they saw a few hours ago from the new images presented to them next to the old ones. Moreover, even after a couple years like 80% of the individuals tested were able to tell if they had seen a certain image in the past. It basically means that what we see somehow gets indelibly imprinted in our memory even if we can't consciously retrieve this information later on

Counting cards is not an easy thing, so I think it's not a trick, but a special ability. Although I have not witnessed the event live, I heard that there were such people, I do not even know if it is true, but in my country, a gambler had previously received cards and received high payments from several casinos. I do not know whether it is necessary to have an inherent ability to do card counting or if it can be learned by some hard work, but I want to congratulate everyone who can count cards. In my opinion, counting cards is talented, and he thinks this because he is only jealous of those who consider it cheating and can only count cards.

Well, on my own. It is a skill for there are only a few people who can easily and quickly remember those cards and count it, even when we do it on a non-gambling game only some of us can retain in their mind the set of pictures, and once flip it you can still remember not all but most of the pictures even if it is not facing you anymore. As what avicz said if you will look on it on the gambling house side you perhaps considered as cheater so if you find it as a skill you may use it but make sure it shouldn't be noticeable or else you will be kicked out of the game or worse out of the casino.

---

Indeed, as far as I know, it is not only you who do the same or should I say most of the players do the same but they just don't let anyone know that they are using it as well for it is everyone's strategy that will help us to win and we all know that everyone wants to win in every game.

23 to 1 on the poll I wonder how this becomes a cheat, I consider it a legit skill to beat the dealer and your opponents, it's not easy to do I cannot even do it because I have a lot of memory lapse, only a few people have a photographic memory it's a gift if you can remember precisely all those cards that come along.

Its going to be tragic when your mind pulls some memories that aren't correct which the cards were merely games in the past. It's probably possible if you have played the game over and over and you are not sure anymore whether what you counted was right.

You'd really have to be addicted to the game to be able to lay your plans ahead when you assume what cards are left.

Well, that's not what I mean

And this is probably not what is meant by card counting, either. I can't say that I'm much into card games (just curious), but in certain games (e.g. poker) you can raise stakes during the game (e.g. to make the other players fold). In this case, card counting refers to deducing what cards the other players might have by looking at what you yourself have been dealt and what cards have already been played. I agree that this is a skill which every decent card player should have or develop, but casinos seem to think differently, especially when all of a sudden you start to raise stakes against the house

Yeah that's true you are going to need hundreds of games before you can actually implement it, it's much different when you are in practice than doing it in an actual game, there are so many distractions doing card reading in the actual games than in practice, but if you mastered it but people know that you have it, you cannot stay playing in one casino, they won't let you.

obviously. ::)

i was responding to your point that casinos should prohibit raising stakes during the game to prevent card counters from having an edge.

this is how group card counting works:

1. the spotter plays the minimum and is the lead card counter
2. he signals the big bettor when the deck is hot (ie more likely to produce face cards and aces = better odds)
3. the big bettor raises the stakes

instead of prohibiting this type of action, casinos use a practice called "preferential shuffling". when stakes are raised mid-game, the decks are shuffled. this removes any card counting advantage but allows players to raise the stakes, yielding more profits for the casino.

It's enough stupid, i think anyone here understand. As i said before, "counting" doesn't affect probability of game result. For example, we are playing Hold'em, and i have two Jacks on my hand. So, i'm counting the probability to get at least one more Jack for set. This will be 2/50 (i don't count cards at my hand, and poker deck has 52 cards). Will it affect a chance to get one more Jack? Obvious - no.

So where is cheating?


Heh, really interesting  :)

But you're talking about some pure cheating, if i correctly understand what you're talking about. With ordinary probability theory you can't be sure what cards will be after, only the chance to get it. Also, you should know all hands of all players at the table (if we are talking about poker)

Emphasis is mine

And that's another can full of worms. Okay, the books are saying that card counting is illegal and you get thrown out once caught. But here comes the tricky part. How can a casino, or anyone else other than yourself, tell that you are cheating in this fashion, i.e. actually catch you red-handed? There's no legitimate or reliable way unless you do something stupid that gives up your approaches. Raising stakes can be considered such a proof from the casino's point of view (which seems to be the case anyway), but there can as well be a myriad of other reasons for doing that, dealer's choice to pick up one

It’s a very skilled way of cheating, if anybody is intelligent & suave enough to do it then they deserve what comes with it to be honest.

agree on this one, could not say that it is legit, but if you can count cards, it is a special skill, that has to be developed and trained, so could not say that it is cheating, which is related to some kind of scam with an easy effort
of course, casino has final words on this one, and they do not want to lose money, so they will call it dirty cheat always

So this is a trick used by the casinos if someone won huge amount of rewards! How can they say it is a form of cheat?

Its like a strategy to analyze the game so it must be called as skill though.

I expected something like that. Methinks it can be now rightfully declared as an official gray area for the purposes of this thread. With that said, the case which at this point might be of interest to us (given the amount of attention this dilemma has drawn) is when it is illegal in a casino to do the card counting. And most interesting is how they are implementing this ban in practice. For example, how are they distinguishing between legitimately raising the stakes and what they think of as illegally upping the ante?

Anyone have an idea?

It's not a dirty cheat at all. Of course, some casinos will call it a cheat cause it gives you some advantage over them and they don't want it but to be fair who can control you online? No one will understand that you count cards but they may have algorithms that can guess your strategy and if you count, ban you. But I highly doubt that ever happens because live casino suppliers use 8 decks during blackjack and cutting card is put not in the middle but a little bit closer to 4th dack but sometimes it happens and because of employees mistakes cutting card is put on near to 5th and 6th deck but that happens very rarely and sometimes that accidents are reported by dealers and quickly fixed.

I just think if it is a skill and of course it is accompanied by luck, as we know gambling is a game of luck but when players have very good skills then players like this are very likely to get a higher level of luck than others, I think it is very unlikely they use cheats in gambling like this and or other casinos.

Yes, that is not cheating, but the casino has the rule, and they can say that it is illegal or legal. We cannot do anything if they say that it is a dirty cheat, but if the casino is okay with that, then that will be no problem for us.


I don't have any idea since the casino can do anything they want, including to say counting card is illegal.

I think that is not a dilemma because as long as we don't use any technology, and you don't use any trickery or signals or anything else to communicate with someone else, then I guess that will not break the rule. But we know that they can easily ban someone in their place without notice, and they can search for any reason why they ban that person.

As a gambler, I don't consider it a cheat and I consider it a skill. Acquiring a good use to that skill would absolutely give you an advantage in playing a certain game If a casino considers it as a dirty cheat, They can easily prohibit it. A gambler will do anything to win on a casino on a safe side that the money you can win can't be forfeited because you violated a casino's rule.

For me, counting cards is not illegal, it's just skill on you but the casinos do not allow the counting of cards because it will give you a big chance of winning the game but actually I don't get them, why they don't allow that kind of ability. There is much gambling that actually uses skills to have an advantage in the game and they don't even ban those things because it just depends on the person if they are going to use it or if they have that kind of skill.

If I can learn that skill I would love to practice that, but I'm the kind that is so preoccupied with so many things in mind, I don't think it's possible for average guy like me, and I consider it a rare skill, to be able to remember all the cards that are passing, I also consider this a threat to gambling casinos, that is why they do not allow such player to play.

This logic is not without flaws

Okay, some players who can count cards are taking from the house edge, we get it. But if we assume that card counting is a natural skill as long as you only use your brains for it, then any such skill should be considered as taking advantage on the house. In this manner of reasoning, a casino should only let in gamblers with low IQ's, at least as far as skill-based games are concerned (where Blackjack belongs to)


I remember a story about some really smartass mathematician who was able to drain a casino dry by making right bets at the right time. He got thrown out in the end (more like denied entry but still)

   There are some exercises for training your brain to memorize things faster, and to learn more! You can
find some online stuff about it, free books and videos about people who are practice that! Anyone can
try that, but we saw in the movies that casinos don't like card counters! Playing BJ online is different I think,
who can guarantee that you play with only one deck?!
   Counting cards is a skill, skill that can earn you some money, and probably a skill that annoy casino stuff!

That makes an interesting case for looking into it deeper

If we are talking about the US casinos, many seem to be run by Native Americans in reservations. And to my knowledge, these Indian tribes have a certain amount of sovereignty, so their reservation can be considered an enclave, i.e. an independent country surrounded by foreign territory. In practical terms, when you turn up there, whatever the reason, you are no longer protected by the federal law. In the end, it may turn out a total no-law zone, and thus you are on your own there (Nevada has its own gambling laws as well)