Counting Cards -- a Dirty Cheat or a Legit Skill?

[johhnyUA]

What's your take?

There is nothing bad to count cards and related to this probability, but in anyway, it's not smart to tell other players about this   Most people can't understand that your "counting" doesn't affect probability or game result, they think with counting you became "luckier" or get some advantage. This is nonsense of course, but only for people that know math even a little.

For other people it's good chance to deal with you in aggressive manner  

[ralle14]

I see counting cards as a skill and less of a cheat since it takes time before you start getting good at it and when you look at it in a different way it could be similar to those card memory games. But rules are rules when you're in a casino and even if it's not included in the rules their decision is the only thing that matters(once you're caught).

[MFahad]

I see counting cards as a skill and less of a cheat since it takes time before you start getting good at it and when you look at it in a different way it could be similar to those card memory games. But rules are rules when you're in a casino and even if it's not included in the rules their decision is the only thing that matters(once you're caught).

Is there anywhere written in the rules that counting the cards are not allowed. I don't think so. People think this is as a cheating but it is not mentioned anywhere. I see no harm in counting cards, if anyone has good memory he can do so.

[serjent05]

Here I primarily refer to the blackjack variety of card games and similar games where you can gain advantage by counting cards, i.e. taking notice and remembering the cards which have already been seen. As far as I know, brick'n'mortar casinos are likely to kick you out once they see that you are counting cards as this is a cheat according to their books. However, and this is a tricky part, I can't fathom how anyone could reliably determine whether you are practicing this technique or not. And then, I, for one, would consider it a skill rather than a cheat

What's your take?

It is a legit skill in my opinion.  The player using this method is only applying his own wit on remembering things.  He does not use any third-party program to take advantage of anyone else, this is the same as face bluffing which is considered as skill in poker.

As long as the player is not using any means of extra tools to get an advantage on his opponent but rather relying on his own wit and skill, I will never consider counting cards as a dirty cheat.

I see counting cards as a skill and less of a cheat since it takes time before you start getting good at it and when you look at it in a different way it could be similar to those card memory games. But rules are rules when you're in a casino and even if it's not included in the rules their decision is the only thing that matters(once you're caught).

Is there anywhere written in the rules that counting the cards are not allowed. I don't think so. People think this is as a cheating but it is not mentioned anywhere. I see no harm in counting cards, if anyone has good memory he can do so.

Some Casinos do think that it is illegal as one way of protecting their own profit but I think it is unfair.

[Wexnident]

A skill ofc. Cheats are acts that bring about absolute chances of winning after all. Like, there ain't even a sliver of a chance of a cheater losing if he/she doesn't want to. Casinos only think of it as a cheat because they lose profit because of it. Imagine if someone actually was like those in manga and manhwas that change their cards magically (just imagine), then that's friggin cheating. Just counting cards? Nope. Hell, that's a basic skill imo and you aren't really playing a game of cards if you haven't counted the cards left in the deck at least once. Isn't it a natural mindset? Even if the answer is a bit broad and nonspecific.

[Darker45]

Same here, I consider it more of a skill than a cheat.

While casinos don't like them mainly because they are losing money instead of earning, card counters are not doing something illegal. They are not violating any game rule. They could be kicked out of course but there is hardly a solid evidence that proves someone is a card counter.

[kayvie]

It is legal. Well, you are using your brain to make it possible and not some sort of device to record the cards. But of course, the casino will consider it as cheating or they can kick you out of the house because it is their way to avoid more losses when they are already at a disadvantage.

[MCobian]

I consider counting cards as legitimate skills, which not everyone can master it. If there are casinos that consider counting cards
as cheating, I think it's just unwarranted fear. But to my knowledge most casinos are guidebooks about counting cards in blackjack
games do not include cheating. Also It's hard to know who is counting cards anyway, because counting cards are done in our minds.

[acroman08]

a legit skill and an impressive one(even if some people claims that it is easy to learn). I can't think of a reason why someone would think counting card is a dirty trick/cheat. although counting card is not illegal I think doing it on a casino is frowned upon by casino staff or owners.

[maydna]

According to https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/11479/why-is-card-counting-considered-illegal-in-blackjack, card counting isn't considered illegal. This isn't cheating in any sense of the word. 994 P.2d 1151 (2000) CHEN v. NEVADA STATE GAMING CONTROL BOARD and Monte Carlo Resort & Casino:

This case presents a conflict between two inconsistent public policies that have developed over the years with regard to the gaming industry. On one hand, gaming establishments have the unquestioned right to protect themselves against so-called "card counters" who have developed expertise in the game of "blackjack" ("twenty-one"). On the other hand, neither card counting nor the use of a legal subterfuge such as a disguise to gain access to this table game is illegal under Nevada law.

But unfortunately, the source page of CHEN v. Nevada is not available anymore.

According to https://www.quora.com/Why-is-card-counting-considered-illegal, count cards is not illegal, as it said on that page:

No, it is not illegal to count cards as long as it is JUST YOU doing it without any technology, and you don’t use any trickery or signals or anything else to communicate with someone else.

But we know that the casino has their own rule so they can easily to said that is illegal or legal to the players.

Casinos have the right to deny service to anyone, and of makes sense to deny players from playing a game in which they have an advantage versus the house.

So perhaps, one casino considers that counting cards are illegal, and they will ban the player from using that method. But in the other casino, counting cards is not illegal, and the player can use it as long as the player is doing without any technology. Well, that will depend on where you play the game

You will find many interest article on Google about counting cards is illegal or not, and they will have a different opinion about that. We should follow the rule in the casino, so they don't ban us from the games.

[Lorence.xD]

a legit skill and an impressive one(even if some people claims that it is easy to learn). I can't think of a reason why someone would think counting card is a dirty trick/cheat. although counting card is not illegal I think doing it on a casino is frowned upon by casino staff or owners.

The reason that the casinos are considering counting card as an illegal move is because the players have a higher chance of winning, and a player winning is something that the casino hates, they loss profits when there are constant increase in winners. Imagine mathematicians storm the casino and play blackjack and poker and other card games, this will cause an imbalance in edge because people are frequently winning rather than losing. With the rise of online platform, the card counting is getting harder.

My tip for players who knows how to do card counting is always tip the dealer, because they are willing to let you win.

[imstillthebest]

It is legal. Well, you are using your brain to make it possible and not some sort of device to record the cards. But of course, the casino will consider it as cheating or they can kick you out of the house because it is their way to avoid more losses when they are already at a disadvantage.

but how can they know that you are counting card if you will be only silent  ? are they mind readers lol  .  and yes your saying is true    .

 this isnt something that is easy to do but it takes skill and good memory  . for sure many people or gamblers dont have that , so why would they worry about thier losses . and besides they already put up a business that they can loose too more than they win   .  so there is nothing to be blame on here   .

[peter0425]

Even in our local gambling counting cards consider as cheating thats why this is prohibited in all cards game not only in blackjack or poker but all the card games so i stand as this is not skilled but a cheat instead.

but anyway it depends on the rules in where you are playing but if we are talking in casino houses here?then absolutely a cheat that will this be decide.

[Bitinity]

I see counting cards as a skill and less of a cheat since it takes time before you start getting good at it and when you look at it in a different way it could be similar to those card memory games. But rules are rules when you're in a casino and even if it's not included in the rules their decision is the only thing that matters(once you're caught).

Is there anywhere written in the rules that counting the cards are not allowed. I don't think so. People think this is as a cheating but it is not mentioned anywhere. I see no harm in counting cards, if anyone has good memory he can do so.

There is no harms for players obviously but it is not for the house. Casinos may ban your account if you are getting caught doing card counting. Indeed there is no written rules about this case but some shaddy casinos may accuse you do card counting even if you did not do it.
Afaik there are also some card counting devices/software, anyone use this device or software has higher chance to get banned imho since it is not a skill at all. Casino will catch it as there must be a pattern of the betting if someone use a card counting software.

[Kasabus]

There is no law that says it's illegal, but if you are in a casino, this is called illegal and they hate is, actually there's a movie about this, they are a group of students and they got caught up in the end, for them making money was easy but it's risky when you get caught.

This is the movie I'm talking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_(2008_film)

[robelneo]

Here I primarily refer to the blackjack variety of card games and similar games where you can gain advantage by counting cards, i.e. taking notice and remembering the cards which have already been seen. As far as I know, brick'n'mortar casinos are likely to kick you out once they see that you are counting cards as this is a cheat according to their books. However, and this is a tricky part, I can't fathom how anyone could reliably determine whether you are practicing this technique or not. And then, I, for one, would consider it a skill rather than a cheat

What's your take?

I voted skill because it's not easy to do it takes a lot of concentration and photographic memory to do this, it takes hundreds of hours to  practice this and a great concentration to do it in a real game, I don't know how can they fathom (these casinos) if you are doing this, it's just their way of bullying you if you have a good run of win.

[fiulpro]

Ofcourse it is a skill , one should understand that it is not easy to actually do all the calculations in your head , plus it's not like you will read a book and master it in one day , it takes brain capacity and experience.
One needs to understand that it is a game made by humans , why would they actually go around and label something cheating when people can find faults in it . It is just like a computer program , you think it's smooth until and unless someone proof checks it .
Well I do think no random person would be able to do that ,I myself haven't heard of someone near me doing it . It is very rare.

[kotajikikox]

Personally?for me this is part of skills because we only reading thru eyes and mind not with our hands,meaning there is no physical contact so how does it come to cheating?
there are many gamblers that doing this before but now i believe that in many places this is not allowed but for a real gambler?this is a skill and not to be consider as cheating.

There is no law that says it's illegal, but if you are in a casino, this is called illegal and they hate is, actually there's a movie about this, they are a group of students and they got caught up in the end, for them making money was easy but it's risky when you get caught.

This is the movie I'm talking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_(2008_film)

so there is a rule lol,what you are saying is in local gambling right?but in casino house this is not allowed.

Cheaters mostly wins in gambling that is the same thing why there are crimes happens after,i have known a friend who once cheat in gambling and got killed that same night.

[Kasabus]

There is no law that says it's illegal, but if you are in a casino, this is called illegal and they hate is, actually there's a movie about this, they are a group of students and they got caught up in the end, for them making money was easy but it's risky when you get caught.

This is the movie I'm talking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_(2008_film)

so there is a rule lol,what you are saying is in local gambling right?but in casino house this is not allowed.

Cheaters mostly wins in gambling that is the same thing why there are crimes happens after,i have known a friend who once cheat in gambling and got killed that same night.

Yeah maybe in big casinos this is prohibited, and just like what I put as an example which is the movie, I saw how a student got tortured by the casino security so its the law within the casino, not a law that the government has created, otherwise those cheaters that is getting caught doing this will just be brought to the jail. Also in your example, your friends got killed, so where's the law there? people from casino sometimes put the law in their hands.

[deisik]

So consider you are playing on an online casino where the live dealers are doing the deals and you are playing Blackjack there. Consider the two following statements:

1. The dealer users more than one deck to deal the round. Its like 5-6 decks made into a mountain of cards from where they draw. You can visit the Evolution gaming providers and you can see it right away. If you can remember that many number of cards and survive through all the rounds then props to you

You don't need to remember that much. Card counting doesn't work like what you seem to think, i.e. you don't need to remember the exact order of each card in the deck (or half a dozen decks)

2. You are also not counting cards from the start. Completing an entire deck for the dealer and then remaining on table to complete the next mountain of cards, make it all the more difficult

See above

3. Often you will not be playing alone. You will have to count the cards held by the other 5players at the table too if you want to keep track. Again something that makes it more difficult. Moreover why will they wait for you to count before the next round?

That makes it three statements out of the two announced. What should I make out of this?

Now consider an online Blackjack game where there is no physical deck being dealt out, like the one on Stake. Cards are dealt every round from a new deck. How do you expect to count card there?

Then again, this is not how card counting works. You don't count cards literally, one by one. You remember which cards have been shown and then reevaluate your chances based on that information