Bitcoin Forum

More details is here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=525168.0


I think it's good time to educate russians about the benefits of bitcoin.

I'm calling all russian speaking to start massive campaing promoting bitcoin in comments and discussions of relevant articles in russian press. May be their dumb authorities will finally realize that bitcoin is their friend.

One word.

BASTARDS

It's obvious that you don't understand how credit cards work. No, they didn't block heir bank accounts, they just cannot spend them using heir debit/credit cards. This hurts American and European businesses more than Russia and the Russians! Stupid Obama! Worst president ever!

Just few banks was banned from using Visa and MC, not whole Russia. Even if all Russian bank got the ban hammer, they will never turn to Bitcoin. Russia government doesn't like things they cannot control, so it is silly to say that they will love cryptocurrency because of this event. China has decent success with their own bankcard brand - UnionPay, Russia will learn that lesson and try to do the same. Furthermore, Russian already have few good payment systems: WebMoney, YandexMoney ...

OP please dont chinese whisper something,. (a link that leads to another link, that leads to a news media story, which has not fully quoted or shown the original source document/interview to verify)

again stop causing chinese whispers.

now to correct you. russian people can still go to their bank or to an ATM and get their money out. the only thing that has changed is that mastercard do not process transactions on retail outlets.


so at worse instead of handing a card over to a retail cashier the people of russia have to go to an ATM and buy stff the old way ( paper money ) until the banks issue new cards with a new processor.

so your title should read mastercard/visa have stopped processing transactions for customers in russia.

i am just thankful you are requesting others to educate, and not endorsing yourself as an educator

LOOOOLLLL
thanks for sharing!
another good reason for using bitcoins!

honestly this hole krim-thing is totally stupid!

I think Obama should be careful on his moves because this will probably lead to all Russians selling their many billions of dollars.
And something tells me China will follow.

Bye bye U.S. Dollar  :-*

EDIT: Then again maybe that's his plan to start WW3

the bigger news still to come is pick pocketting, handbag thieves and 'stick ups' because everyone has to start carrying around lots of bank notes now instead of a card protected by a pin number

There's not much economic leverage over Russia by the USA because Russia imports nearly nothing from the USA.   However, the rest of Europe is dependent on Russian natural gas, and means to ship natural gas from the USA to Europe in significant quantities are years away.  The USA is war-weary, and can't make a credible military threat.  

The only tools that Obama has left to deal with the Russians are token economic sanctions.  If the issue isn't solved by next winter, I predict Europe will capitulate to Putin when it starts getting cold.

Bitcoin isn't big enough for Russian oligarchs to use to get around the sanctions.   However, it shows that VISA/Mastercard will use politics to determine the validity of transactions going through its system.   Banning Wikileaks donations was just the beginning.

TTM, you don't see the point.
Unlike Chinese, the Russians have had freedom to spend money abroad, till now.
I suppose that russian payment systems are worthless outside of russia and people are getting isolated from the outer world.

May be this move is even good for Russian govt as it would force their citizens to spend all the money inside the country. But people will just lose the crumbles of financial freedom they have.

This is why adding the ability to blacklist bitcoins would be a mistake.

We do want governments to accept Bitcoin though, and to have the community actively endorsing Russians to break sanctions imposed by a lot of governments across the world would not help our ultimate goal to get Bitcoin widely adapted. Most people understand Bitcoin can be used just for this, but we as a community should avoid endorsing certain uses for Bitcoin to avoid negative hype.

Russia could not crash the USD even if it tried to.  In fact it looks like Russia has already sold 100 Billion in the last two weeks with little effect.  They don't have much ammo left when it comes to this move.  This will hurt them more then it hurts the USA. 

Obama or Putin could start WW3 easily either openly or secretly.  This is NOT hard to do.  A little mistake with a ship, plane, missile or sub could do it on either side.  Luckily neither of them really want it. 

Surprisingly the USA could actually get enough natgas to Europe if we wanted to and this would cripple Russia pretty badly.  With one year if we started now we could along with others make up for the Russian natgas by a combination of re-routing, conserving and new capacity. 

France's nuclear plants are looking pretty smart right now. 

Russia will probably start selling their gas and oil to China instead if the EU impose sanctions on gas supplies, as the Chinese don't seem to be in a particular hurry to introduce sanctions. So if they haven't already, they might start building a couple of pipelines into China near Harbin (one for gas, one for oil) and get their income from that instead. Aside from that, this might force the EU to ramp up energy efficiency measures in its constituent member states to counter a contraction of gas supplies that would result from this, and also increase the price of gas supplies from the North Sea and Norway in turn. The US would be eyeing off possible export deals for their shale gas, and possibly Australia as well if their LNG exports to China and the US decline as a result.

Plenty of ways things could play out, depending on key decisions.

This is why we have Bitcoin!  No one to deny our transactions :)

As far as I read, living standards are higher in Russia, so it would make sense for the Ukrainans to want to join them. Anyway, maybe a little pain first, but it wouldn't take long until they manage just fine without MasterCard and Visa, along with their fees.

They are like playing chess. Let see what is the Russia's next move to counter America's sanction.

I wonder what country will make checkmate? who'll be the winner and how much people will suffer from this game?

visa and mastercard made problem for wikileaks too. don't use them, they are front business of people who are against bitcoin.

Given that the Russians sank their own sub the last time they tried to launch a torpedo, I don't think this is a very big problem these days. These things are complex, and after 20+ years of neglect they probably will not work too well.

Unlike the AK47, which you can bury in mud for 20 years, dig up and fire....

Money are not blocked, is lie.
Blocked are payments via mastercard or visa.
People pay via webmoney.ru for online payments and with other services.

Turn all your funds into Bitcoin while there is still time! 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BWUeQwGEGQ

Why? Webmoney.ru p2p loans goes up to 30% daily, and You can start to investing with less than $1.

As a prosper.com lender I am laughing now.....

prosper is only for some states of US, not open to everyone

on webmoney.ru you can find many offers from 1 to 0.5% daily

Subject is too strong... Only one bank is blocked, and I really don't understand why this bank has been chosen as a victim. Bank of Russia is not so popular organization, most of the people even didn't knew about their existance. It seems that this idiots thought that it's something like Bank of America. :D

Anyway, now this bank became popular through a free promotion by Obama... Putin, Rogozin, Kadirov and a bunch of others even opened their accounts here :D

Hmm... Kadyrov's account will be very heavy. Every year he is stealing billions of USD from the Russian tax payers.

I think that owners of this bank were lucky during these days. So much free PR :)

See http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/03/24/293866579/a-primer-on-the-sanctions-against-russia (http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/03/24/293866579/a-primer-on-the-sanctions-against-russia)


These are token sanctions, because Russia has very little trade with the US.   I'm sure that Putin is asking for payment in rubles for the American astronaut that the Russians just gave a ride to the ISS.

http://www.servant.org/writings/humor/h_mfarj.php

 :D

Agreed. And it is positive PR as well (in Russia).

Sounds a bit another form of cold war eminent.

Blocking money of Russian tax evaders help RF to be stronger.
Blocking foreign money order service help Russia to build and develop own processing services.

Russia need more sanctions.

Actually such behavior of any payment system is a rude violation of the law. Nobody is allowed to block or spy without authorization from court.

http://www.forbes.ru/finansy/regulirovanie/252629-rossiya-kontratakovala-visa-i-mastercard

So, the new bill is currently under review. If it will be accepted then MasterCard and VISA will be forced to build local transactions processing centres on the russian territory. This would be able to protect citizens from Obomber's malicious activity (accounts locking, collection of transactions data).

By the way, this also means that mastercard & visa will lose their profit from processing fees (VISA makes ~$4 billion for a year here).

I don't think so, now the government is also bad, President Obama is trying to solve this problem. So now the policy is in line with the temporary phase of the Federal National conditions.

Guys you should see this as a plus, if Russians in USA and Russia cant use Visa and Matercard, maybe this will help bitcoin.  Way to go Visa and Mastercard!!!

I have read that Putin ordered to make their own credit card company after Visa and Mastercard blocked Russia

Not all test work in the first time eventually they will perfected it. Russians has pretty advance delivery and defense systems. Just imagine 50 megaton thermonuclear bomb detonated in your city and russians still have +8000 more if its not enough.

I wish it would be thruth but it seems like Putin are far from Bitcoin and maybe he even think that Bitcoin is something that is american abd now he is trying to get rid of evetyting connected with US

That's why Bitcoin is good than visa and mastercard

What facts do you have that tell Visa&MasterCard are against Bitcoin?

Everything is for the better future!)) Maybe they finally understand what Bitcoin is our better future

It would be logical to assume that Visa/MasterCard are against Bitcoin because is it a competing payment system that would cut into their profits.   They are going to fight it, or find a way to adapt and live with it, such as providing bitcoin to Visa/MasterCard gateways.

I personally think that Visa/MasterCard should fade away, by deeming themselves to be the arbiter of who can trade on the system (i.e. Wikileaks, Russian citizens using certain banks)  

I think the Target data breach helps the world know just how insecure their system is.

I have it on good authority from both my Russian and Chinese friends say this whole mess will blow over soon enough and get back to normal. 

So everyone can calm down and reinvest in btc.

Perhaps it is for you, that what others think.

Feel you say is like the Russian government does not support the development of network economy.

I am pretty sure this show will soon end and we just should be patient

At least some of the value they offer comes from consumer protection. The charge-backs that vendors hate are beneficial to customers, and since it is customers who have the money there may well still be a market for credit card-like consumer protection in Bitcoin.

Agreed. VISA / Master just play supporting roles to the US in its war for world domination.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=525190.msg5956741#msg5956741

It would be interesting to see what MasterCard or VISA investors think about this.  ::)

I am really worried about BTC-E. They just activated VISA withdrawals.

*laugh* If you think anyone can lob a tsar bomba over here, then you really need a bit of perspective. Go look it up, see what a 50mt bomb is.

As for being worried? Nope. This kind of tech is exceptionally complex, and not having been kept up to date in the past 20 years is a good indication that it might have... problems... working.

50MT or 100MT is really too much, it would cause too many problems. Though 97% of energy was generated by fusion, the last explosion of 50MT bomb resulted with massive radioactive contamination above the Arctic Circle.

Sub'd this thread +1 to the OP and thanks for the news.  This sounds like something I'll be very interested in learning more about when I've got more time.

Visa, Mastercard resume services with 2 Russian banks blocked after US sanctions

http://rt.com/business/visa-mastercard-us-sanctions-693/

Sanctioned Bank Rossiya ditches foreign currency for rouble

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/krispotupchik/8712371/385422/385422_600.jpg

http://rt.com/business/rossiya-bank-sanctions-ruble-913/

Will see... ::)

Then why not put ATM's inside the retail stores? That would solve the issue of walking around with a lot of cash on hand.

And I agree, this was a very bone-headed move by Obama.

I do not believe it can help coins somehow.
Coins are enemies for a classic currency of any country - especially like Russia.

Ftfy. :)

US has incredible strict control of foreign accounts usage, with almost zero level of tolerance. This system is extremely close to dictatorship, much closer than its counterparts in USSR or Russian Federation ever were.

Just one example, in USA I can get 3-5 years of prison if I forgot to declare some foreign incomings. In Russia or Germany for the same action I'll get only a moderate fine.

Lavrov stated today:

"There will be a replacement. Both Visa and MasterCard are already worried about losing our market share."
"It's all virtual money, virtual transactions, and anything virtual can be replicated, especially now, when both Russia and other countries have specialists who know how it works."
http://ria.ru/economy/20140514/1007758715.html

"Virtual money", eh? Does he know he is only one step from invoking Bitcoin?  :P ;D

Some good news for Visa / Master. At least they will not get banned in Russia.  ;D

Russia set for national payment system but Visa, MasterCard will stay

http://en.itar-tass.com/opinions/1769

They will, in case of refusal to build local transactions processing centres.

Oh god.. this is such an embarrassment for Visa / Master. They should have kept their mouths shut, rather than poking the bear with a stick. Really, I feel sorry for them after reading this news.  ;D

Visa, MasterCard to pay $3bn to stay in Russia - Morgan Stanley

http://rt.com/business/159196-visa-mastercard-morgan-stanley

A company shouldn't be able to block a certain ethnicity from its business (which is really just bad business) and yes maybe this will work out good for bitcoin.

How the hell will a 25% fee on profit be larger than the revenue?

75% of profit is not profit at all, it won't even cover the bribes... sorry, lobbying. :)

I was referring strictly to the numbers the article claimed..
Let's not mention "hidden cost or gifts or travel expenses" here.

I haven't heard of a situation where 1/4 of the profit can be larger than the revenue. If we're dealing with the same definitions , profit can't be itself larger than revenue.. so wtf?

Russia gov hates everything that they can't control, like bitcoin, but bitcoin can be a great way to bypass these credit card bans and USA future and current economic sanctions, so what will speak louder?

Well, again somebody talks about the government control while being unable to see the world beyond own nose. Sorry, but it seems very strange to me.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=525190.msg6691455#msg6691455

Bitcoin wiki, maybe? ::)

It can't be the great way, because this solution won't work at all. Forget about bitcoin in the mainstream banking. Modern implementations of bitcoin protocol are incapable to achieve the required transaction rate. There are no decentralized cryptocurrencies which would be able to work as national payment system. Too many scalability issues there waiting for a solution before it will be possible. Sorry for strong language, just tired of these dreams about decentralized & full-scale international banking. It simply won't happen in the near future. It's not about hate or control, it's technically impossible right now. But, eventually, it will be possible.

Lols , so you're not just a red bear , but also a bitcoin bear :).

lol... Morgan Stanley advises Visa / Master to GTFO Russia.

Visa, MasterCard Better Off Quitting Russia, Morgan Stanley Says

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/visa-mastercard-better-off-quitting-russia-morgan-stanley-says/500169.html

What's happened? They don't want to be responsible for some of their recent actions? :)

RT:


Moscow Times:


Lols

It seems that we need to read this bill without using proxy entities like RT. ::)

It would seem that Moscow Times is closer to what I read being proposed earlier, a deposit and not a tax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXGPzDq45gM

Something about SWIFT and USD ::)

It is something like the deposits bank have to maintain with the central banks I guess.
So , this will actually not hurt their profits

Stupid journalists.

Yes, in case of absence of sanctions. It seems like this deposits will be used as something like insurance fund.

Let's for a moment suppose that visa and mastercard go nuts.
They block all the card and money transfers.

What would be the short term consequences?
A bank run? A drop in e-commerce? enormous use of webmoney ? Bitcoin usage?

If I discover that Visa stops its operations, I would look for alternatives, and Bitcoin would be an obvious choice. I would be asking international merchants to accept BTC in the absence of Visa payments.
Bank run? No.

Lost money will be returned from insurance fund, then something interesting would happen.

Maybe, if significant part of deposits money was invested into the foreign assets.

This event will have a shocking effect to e-commerce, and some transitional period will be required before new PoS equipment will be established by sellers.

The only problem is international banking. National system will be incompatible with VISA or MC, so customers of sanctioned bank will be unable to work with foreign VISA/MC clients directly. But this shouldn't create any irresistible problem, because local banks are able to work with any payment system using the foreign pass-through, if it would be necessary.

I'd like to see that. But actually, webmoney is just another bank, it could be sanctioned as well as any others.

Unfortunately, bitcoin network wouldn't be able to process such amount of transactions.

Thanks for the detailed answer.
I just realized that a bank run shouldn't be triggered.

The money you have on your visa card are money owned by the bank in my case for example ING.
So it's just you card that got disabled  , it's not your account that is at risk .. so I guess no bank run.


As for webmoney...didn't know they are actually a bank , not a service.
It's a pain in the ass sometimes to use but I had no problems with it in the last 4 years so people would consider it first  , before bitcoin unfortunately.

Right now, VISA / Master is caught between the devil and deep sea. On one side they face the wrath of Obama and his cronies if they don't comply with their order to block the Russian transfers. On the other side, they risk losing their rapidly growing business in Russia and its allies.  ;D

Is the Russian national card payment system active now? Or are they yet to officially start the payment system? Can these cards be used for payments outside Russia?

Still in the planning stages:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%91%D0%B6%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82#2014_.D0.B3.D0.BE.D0.B4

Interestingly, Belarus already has its own national, domestically developed system, Belkart.

I remember not so distant past, when visiting Germany, you had to be prepared to take cash in ATMs and pay with cash in the shops, as almost none accepted VISA, while accepting national EC card.

Visa and mastercard are devils with way to much power in their hand. It's time for a change I think. ;)

In that case it would have been a good idea to jointly develop a combined card payment system for both Russia and Belarus. The infrastructure and the technology is already there.

That's funny to change my post, yeah.
So how does it breaks my position?

Visa announces readiness to pull from the Russian market:
http://rbcdaily.ru/finance/562949991518906

now russia block VISA&MASTER

bye bye USD, BTC is future

I don't know. Seems like Russian Duma backpedals, promising to soften the deposit demands... :(
http://ria.ru/economy/20140521/1008678543.html

The google translation makes no sense for me unfortunately.
Is there a deadline on June 1st for this issue?

If they don't make the deposit they will have to force shut-down?

No, what it says is that the lawmakers can reduce the required level of deposit by the 1st of July, which is the deadline for Visa and MasterCard to Make the deposits.
Visa and MC are asking for the size of the deposit to be reduced and this is being discussed at the moment. The new law comes into power on the 1st of July, and the lawmakers say they will reach a compromise by then, and they refuse to comment any further.

New law will apply since June 1st, so all issues should be resolved before this date. Article says that representatives of visa & mc are currently negotoating with Central Bank of Russia in order to find suitable value for insurance deposit.

Thanks for the explanation.
But it makes no sense for them to declare that. How can they be so sure.

It can only mean that they have already settled for a smaller amount or even made deal behind the back , requiring them to actual deposit that sum but giving them some privileges in return so both sides will be happy.The politicians acting like patriots and the visa/mastercard team happy about the payouts.Probably they encountered a lot of problems while developing a national system or they didn't had the time.



^This will have to wait.

I think that it will be much lower than the $3 billion, which was demanded by the Russian authorities. Probably will be in the range of several hundred million US Dollars.

Russia won't accept bitcoin, ever. If their leaders can't steal something from it then it is no use for them to allow it. And after this situation with Visa & Mastercard they will probably develop their own banking&paying procedures, just like China and Belarus. It is only loss for Western Banking companies and for the russian people really.

Too early to say that. In the early stages of Bitcoin (especially in 2011 and 2012), Russians constituted for a large part of the Bitcoiners (IMO, they constituted close to 25% of the Bitcoiners at that time). The Russian government is not pro-Bitcoin, as of now. But they have not yet banned Bitcoin, as China and Thailand has done.

Thailand hasn't banned anything related to bitcoin , they were just poor translated news and China hasn't banned bitcoin usage just trading.

My source is Bitlegal.


Also, see this:

Bitcoin banned in Thailand

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100923551

It is legal in Thailand to buy and sell Bitcoins for native currency. It is not legal to buy and sell for other currencies.

http://www.techinasia.com/bank-thailand-countrys-top-bitcoin-exchange-resume-operations/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=550894.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=605641.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=617268.0

Doesn't seem to banned to me.

Because it isn't. It is restricted, but not banned.

That was my point. Lots of fake or incorrectly translated "news" that spread a lot of false information.
And some people take from granted single posts of some blogs or forums.

In case of Thailand even the central bank and the government changed their view a few months ago.
Waiting for China to do their 180 move also.

that's what you get when you do something against the will of almost every western country

I think you posted this in the wrong thread :).
It's about visa and mastercard in russia not the ukraine crisis.

It is unlikely china will do 180 move seeing they are trying very hard to prosecute municipal corruption.

Once money leave the country, the government won't be able to seize the asset of corrupted official.

Wait until bitcoin gets big enough so that the ones running the government can hide their billions through bitcoins. Then everything will change as at this moment it's not suited for that kind of sums.

Some respite for Visa / Master in Russia.

Russia could relax rules for Visa and Mastercard -source

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/22/us-russia-sanctions-credit-idUSBREA4L06I20140522

The title is a bit misleading

A quote from the article:
That doesn't sound at all like relax. Seems like Visa has the upper hand right now.

I wouldn't say that Visa is having any advantage right now. If Putin really want, he can kick out Visa / Master in a matter of days. On the other hand, Visa / Master will be severely affected by the loss of one of the fastest growing markets, if he does so.

Severely? Not even close.

According to the Russian central bank, the volume of card transactions in Russia reached 7.3 trillion rubles ($204 billion) in the 4th quarter of 2013. If the two U.S. companies processed 90 percent of that volume, about $2 billion per day, they would have to deposit $4 billion with the central bank between them. Their combined Russian revenue in 2013, at 0.1 percent of transaction volume, looks to have been about $724 million, although that may be a generous estimate: Mastercard says Russia accounts for 2 percent of its revenues, a mere $167 million in 2013.

I also think that the Russians have a paypal like service which is wide spread isn't it?

The percentage might be small, but the market in Russia is one of the fastest growing ones in the world. Other card markets such as the US and the EU are extremely saturated right now, with little scope for growth. So, Russia might be 2% of the volume, but it represents 20% of the potential growth for Mastercard.

Right. As expected Visa and MasterCard came to an agreement with Russian lawmakers:
http://www.forbes.ru/news/258103-visa-i-mastercard-dogovorilis-s-pravitelstvom-ob-usloviyakh-raboty-v-rossii
The details are not given.

They came to agreement with government, not with lawmakers. Lawmakers currently prepairing the new bill, which will be used to allow adjustment of deposit value requirements by government.

After all that barking about how visa and mastercard can get the of russia if they don't pay an agreement with no details given to the public seems like I was right , Visa has the upper hand.From what i can read with the google translator it seems like they need at least 6 years to create their own payment network.

They would do it faster with bitcoins.

http://m.forbes.ru/news.php?id=258201

Just like I said before (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=525190.msg5929168#msg5929168), VISA & MC are planning to create the local processing centers, this would allow them to work around all these US sanctioning issues.

This might provide a temporary respite for Visa / Master. But with the Russian public remaining fiercely opposed to them, I don't think that they will stay in Russia for the long term.

And it's June the 4th and in the end , nothing happened.
Seems like visa was to much to handle :).

They came to an agreement:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303749904579579422487971570

Not really if i read the last two paragraphs:

Mr Siluanov said Visa and MasterCard currently "have problems" with the insurance deposit demanded by the law, but that both sides would seek a solution. Earlier this week, Mr. Siluanov said that Russian cardholders should be ensured against possible service disruptions.

A finance ministry official who asked not to be named said Thursday that Russia hopes to reach an agreement with Visa and MasterCard that will result in creation of a payment system akin to existing systems in France and Turkey. In these two countries global card providers work together with their local peers, processing transactions together.

They won't get any money and any deposit from visa.
Those guys know they can cripple the Russian commerce and they will not pay a cent more.

Seems like a game.

I wouldn't put it as dramatically. Visa and Master Card are only really important when trading with abroad by tourists or Internet commerce. I don't know what the numbers are, but I can't imagine that being a large segment.

Visa and MC have almost 90% of all card transactions in Russia.

According to the Russian central bank, the volume of card transactions in Russia reached 7.3 trillion rubles ($204 billion) in the 4th quarter of 2013. If the two U.S. companies processed 90 percent of that volume, about $2 billion per day,

Well , it does seems like a lot to me.


Also :

"We have 100 million cards there (in Russia) and it is not in anyone's best interest, inclusive of the Russians, to make those cards not available to their own citizens," Pollitt said.

This was visa alone.

Right. Russia needs a domestic payment card system. Badly.

As for the number of cards issued. I have thee Visa cards only because the banks force me to have them to be eligible for other services. I use only one of those when I am abroad. Inside Norway, the transactions go through the Scandinavian Bank Axept payment card system, so in my daily life Visa is not used, except for an occasional internet purchase.

I wish Russia the same.

You don't use financial services as a weapon of war. This is immoral. The Russian people are not responsible for the bad actions of their government.

Who determines where "bad", and where the "good"? Or by word "bad" you mean something what Obama doesn't like? :D

bad actions of their government? Did the Russian government invaded half the world nations for their oil and gas resources, like what the Americans did? Did they gave weapons and money to Al Qaeda, just like what the Americans did in Syria?

american propaganda tells them that everything that Obama doesn't like is bad. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

No , it's far better to use live ammunition. That wouldn't be immoral.
It'a a war game and it's being fought not with guns but with $.

And unfortunately , yes , the people are always responsible for the action of their government , because... it's THEIRS.
You don't support the government , replace it or bring it down it. You don't like it and you can't overthrow it or replace it, move to another country.

At least the Americans after the invasions withdraw from those countries... the Russians are still there after 60 years :)

Well, German people are even not allowed to have a real constitution, for example. Basic Law was approved at 8 May 1949 by puppets of occupation administration, and it still in power. Taking into account all these signs, Germany is under occupation right now... 2014 - 1949 = 65  ::)

Russians still there after 60 years? Which countries are you talking about? As far as I know no Russian soldier is stationed outside Russia. On the other hand, the US is having a military presence in more than 100 countries.

International aggression is bad. Seizing territory from another nation is bad. I don't care what Obama thinks at all. I didn't care what George W Bush thought either. I didn't vote for either and disagree with pretty much everything either one of them said or did in office.

Well please educate my weak American mind. Save me from my governments propaganda for I am unable to think for my self. Better yet stop being an elitist prick.

Free trade makes war less likely. Restricting that trade based on political bickering makes war more likely. 

 

Then you should be protesting against your own country who are the no.1 aggressor. Will give you a list, here:

1949 Greece
1952 Cuba
1953 Iran
1953 British Guyana
1954 Guatemala
1955 South Vietnam
1957 Haiti
1958 Laos
1960 South Korea
1960 Laos
1960 Ecuador.
1963 Dominican Republic
1963 South Vietnam
1963 Honduras
1963 Guatemala
1963 Ecuador.
1964 Brazil
1964 Bolivia
1965 Zaire.
1966 Ghana
1967 Greece
1970 Cambodia
1970 Bolivia
1972 El Salvador
1973 Chile
1979 South Korea (Pro-USA government wanted)
1980 Liberia
1982 Chad
1983 Grenada
1987 Fiji
1989 Panama
2001 Afghanistan
2002 Venezuela
2003 Iraq
2004 Haiti
2009 Honduras
2011 Libya
2011 Tunisia
2013 Egypt
2014 Ukraine

The post peaceful country in the world , Russia:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Historical+map+of+Russia&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go&uselang=ro

At lest the Americans bought some of the lands like the former colony of Louisiana and Alaska but...

Seems to be pretty stable, save for those times, when Russia was invaded.

From it's neighbors view , sorry to say it but I remember how my teacher once said about another empire , It seems like a cancer spreading.
Besides , it's the only empire or country that kept expanding it's territory every century. and yes it just did it again this one too :).

I don't disagree at all. The US government makes a lot of bad decisions. Being an American does not mean I support any of this. 

Russia has lost a lot of territory during the 19th and 20th centuries. Examples are Alaska (to the United States), Kars (to Turkey), Novorossiya (to Ukraine) and the Semipalatisk-Karaganda region (to Kazakhstan).

That wasn't "lost" , you can lose your wallet on the street  but you can't claim you lost money when you did go shopping with them and bought a bunch a stuff.

It was lost. Russia received compensation, which was at that time worth less than 1% of the real value of Alaska. Also, the sale was made under the threat of an impending British invasion.

Real value? It was the value at that time and it was seen as a foolish move by a lot of Americans.
Like the people who claim that the guy buying a pizza with 10 000BTC was an idiot.

And the impending British invasion... which never happen.

The land was sold and it wasn't lost.
How much of the land Russia sits on was bought and not conquered spilling blood ?

Russia , Britain , France , Turkey they did the same , no point in defending the the Russians as some peace loving people.
They did the same in Siberia as the americans and british in the US with the natives.

At the time of the Siberian conquest, that region was being ruled by the Tatars, who had enslaved the local population. Not saying that the Russians were any better than the Tatars, but the Russians didn't took the land from the original inhabitants. The Ostyaks and Voguls had already lost their land at the time of the Siberian conquest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Siberia

I know you don't like Wikipedia although  you quote it often , but look at the references.

Besides lots of samoeds and aleut people were slaughter and those were not tatars. And god knows how many more natives.

Also , the siberian khnate rulled by tatars was a small part of siberia.
And again as in the other thread , acting like an invader and killing the invader that got there first before you doesn't make you better.

The Samoyeds and Aleuts were living in the more remote parts of Siberia. They were contacted much later. Initially, the contacts were limited to the Ostyaks, Tatars and Voguls. The other smaller tribes were already decimated as a result of the inter-tribal warfare. When smallpox and other epidemics reached their lands, most of the tribes became extinct.

But this has happened not only in Siberia. It has happened in the Americas, Africa and Oceania.

Which again makes my point , the russians acted the same as the americans and english.

And just because they slaughter them after the tatars (later) doesn't really help.







more.....?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/business/2014/06/140620_russia_visa_mastercard_deposit.shtml

According to new bill, it is required to account only the foreign processing operations. VISA & MC don't have any local processing centers, so all of their transactions should be accounted. It seems that nothing has been changed in real, they're still required to pay $2.9 billion.

Niothor, I wanted to reply to your post, before holidays, but forgot, where I saw it. Now Balthazar inadvertently brought the topic back up. :)

In your examples above you took the history out of context.

First you need to consider what came before: 300 years of Tatar-Mongol occupation (yoke) of Russian, a period when Russians were almost completely exterminated. Those brutalities were still fresh in memory then (they are still not forgotten now), and, as Cossacks were pushing further East, the people who looked Asian were associated with Tatars or Mongols and brutality was a way of dealing retribution. I do not in any way justify such actions, but that is the mindset of that period.

Contacts with Chukchi existed from before the events you describe. As an aside Chukchi have several words describing human beings, but only they themselves and Russians were gratified with their use of the word "real people". At the same time Chuckchi creation myths say that Russains were created by the gods to serve Chukchi with metals and goods, but somehow forgotten their true purpose and turned on their masters.

Now, let's see what came later - in 1770 the Anadyrsk fortress was laid down, which spurred friendlier relations between Chukchi and Russians, and already in 1775 Angarsk fortress was built, and it served as a centre for trade - big fairs were organised there, where Chukchi and Russians could exchange all kinds of local goods, and the turnover of trade accounted for hundreds of thousands of roubles in the monetary value of those days. In 1848 the fair was moved to Anjusk fortress, and served up to the middle of the 19th century.

VISA announced that they will build their own local processing centre in Russian Federation within 2 years:
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2499104

The world is build by conqueror. Anyone who feel sorry for their enemies today may come to regret some years down the road.


 

Spot on.

Christianity was evil at one point during the crusades:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades


Muslim wasn't that much different:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests


If you are on the winning camp, enjoy it while you can. Survival of fitness, any culture who got themselves into bad position either need to adapt and change or die off to make room for others.

1949 Greece
1952 Cuba
1953 Iran
1953 British Guyana
1954 Guatemala
1955 South Vietnam
1957 Haiti
1958 Laos
1960 South Korea
1960 Laos
1960 Ecuador.
1963 Dominican Republic
1963 South Vietnam
1963 Honduras
1963 Guatemala
1963 Ecuador.
1964 Brazil
1964 Bolivia
1965 Zaire.
1966 Ghana
1967 Greece
1970 Cambodia
1970 Bolivia
1972 El Salvador
1973 Chile
1979 South Korea (Pro-USA government wanted)
1980 Liberia
1982 Chad
1983 Grenada
1987 Fiji
1989 Panama
1991 ex Yugoslavia
1999 again Yugoslavia (Serbia&MN)
2001 Afghanistan
2002 Venezuela
2003 Iraq
2004 Haiti
2009 Honduras
2011 Libya
2011 Tunisia
2013 Egypt
2014 Ukraine

They still have bitcoins here ready to be used massive. I just don't get it why people still resist from it, while it makes so good to all of the people.

Because it's not ready to be used massive. Not in our universe, at least.

Legal Prime GS Consulting, JSC

It's a pretty big law firm, which is located in Moscow, and they accept bitcoin as payments for their services.

http://www.legalprimegsc.ru/news/my_prinimaem_k_oplate_bitkoiny_Bitcoin_dlya_obespecheniya_anonimnosti_pri_raschetah_s_klientami_pri_okazanii_uslug_trebuyuschih_spetsialnogo_rezhima_k-344/

So if you need a lawyer in Russia, then you can contact them.

What are Russians doing at the moment with their money?

Sanctions might be getting worse and fast, due to the airplane.  If I was in Russia I would be converting all my disposable money into Bitcoin - Bitcoin shouldn't change that whole much but the Russian economy could be in the gutter if big sanctions are placed against it.

They most of them don't care about sanctions. Some people are investing into shares of energy and industrial sector companies... I'm buying shares for 1/3 of my monthly salary, for example.

I don't think Russians are much aware of bitcoin.  I am thinking about to logging in in to my VK account and spread the word BTC to all. I have got many friends. I just want to recover my pass. I last logged in more than 4+ months ago.
Kindly,
          MZ