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About a month ago on November 23, I bet 0.14 BTC on the De Jong - Altmirano tennis challenger match which was going to start the next day at around 11am, with De Jong winning at 2.6 odds. However, a few hours later something interesting happened where he drastically dropped from 2.6 to a 1.2-1.3 favorite.

This then gave me a few options:

1. Cash out in full for around 0.268 BTC (0 risk and guaranteed instant reward of nearly 0.13 BTC)
2. Not cash out at all with a chance to win 0.364 BTC (100% risk and 0 guarantee of winning)
3. Cash out partially for whatever amount I wanted while still keeping the bet open (less risk and less return/reward, a nice balance of the 2)

So I decided to go with option #3 and partially cash out my bet for 0.1394 BTC to get my initial back, while keeping the remainder amount open at 2.6 odds to potentially win the full bet if De Jong won the match. That remainder amount was 50% of the bet, with a stake of 0.067 BTC left at 2.6 odds to potentially win 0.174 BTC if De Jong wins.

The next day I was watching over the match, and thankfully De Jong won it pretty comfortably 6-2 6-4.

So I go on my account super excited to receive the win, and 1 hour later nothing shows up. So I reach out to support, and they tell me that apparently, I got an email a few hours before the match that they decided to "cancel" the match because of a change of odds, and that my win would not count.

I was and still am in complete shock about this, because odds in tennis change all the time and it is never a valid reason to cancel a match in advance. This is what their email said:

"Dear EpicChamp,

This is to inform you that   game coefficient  was  changed  from 2.6  to 1.7. Therefore, you  bet was cancelled .
Sorry  for the  inconvenience and wish   you  the best of  luck!"

First off, besides the terrible grammar, this is a complete lie because De Jong was never given 1.7 odds of winning this match on ANY betting site the entire time. After his odds dropped from over 2.6 he was ALWAYS universally below 1.3 across all other sites too. So it seems as though they just randomly came up with 1.7 out of the blue because that was never the case.

Second, it is complete bs to just cancel the entire bet right before the match simply because of a change of odds. Odds change all the time in tennis and other sports in general, and it is not my fault that he was first posted at really good odds and then dropped because maybe they realized he was actually the better player. So because I was able to make the bet in time at great odds, I 100% deserve to win this bet with my remaining stake of 0.067 BTC at 2.6 odds for 0.174 BTC. This is the most fair and right thing to do, and EVERY other gambling site that had this bet on that day, honored this bet and rewarded people who bet on De Jong their full money. I know this because I had some friends who used another site for the same match and they were rewarded for it DESPITE the drastic change of odds.

Yet for some reason FortuneJack refuses to do this to honor fair play, and does not bother explaining the reason behind it. I've never had this happen to me before, and all other gambling sites haven't canceled this bet/match for their users either.

But EVEN WORSE than canceling my bet last minute and preventing me from winning 0.174 BTC, they decided to go ahead and KEEP the remaining balance that I had on this bet of 0.067 BTC to themselves as well.

So not only are they not counting my bet as a win, but now they also refuse to return to me the remaining 0.067 BTC that I had left on this bet from the night before at 2.6 odds.

I have been contacting them about this for over a month now, and they don't seem to care or do anything about it. All they are telling me is that this is their final decision and that's it.

At this point I feel totally cheated & completely robbed of my money, and I don't understand how something like this can ever be acceptable.

If they gave me the option to partially cash out my bet the night before and still be able to keep a large portion of it in play for a chance to win the bet at 2.6 odds, just like any other regular bet, then they should honor that bet and count it as a win. As simple as that.

And if they decided to bend the rules in their favor and purposely cancel this bet 2 hours before the match was about to start, then at the BARE MINIMUM they need to return to me the remaining amount which they are refusing to do.

So right now I am really not sure what else I do, and I wanted to bring this up to let everyone know how shady FortuneJack is and how they cannot be trusted with their bets at all; as well as your thoughts on what should be my next steps from here to fix this.

0.067 BTC and 0.174 BTC are equivalent to $2300 USD and $6100 respectively. Maybe if this was in the low hundreds I wouldn't have cared as much, but what they are doing is completely wrong & unethical in so many ways. In fact, I should at least get back ~0.13 BTC, because that is how much I would have gotten the day before if I cashed out my bet in full for 0.268 BTC.

It's almost as if they can just do whatever they want and you have no say whatsoever, even if they are completely wrong and you have a lot of evidence + logical reasoning to back your case.

I really hope something can be done about this and not just let them get away for their shady way of doing business and running their site.

It sounds like they are giving you your deposit back at least, so that's good. You should probably just place bets elsewhere, would be my advice going forward.

On one hand, honoring the "incorrect" odds would be the noble thing for FortuneJack to do.

On the other hand, they're going to point to potentially multiple clauses in the sportsbook terms and conditions that says they reserve the right to do exactly that.

So in my opinion, it's probably best just to move on. Casinos pointing to their terms and conditions as an excuse to not have to pay somebody out is the norm... probably won't be bucked in that regard.

And I don't like this practice of they can do whatever they want.

It's like I need money, I create a casino with these terms and conditions. I selectively target users and seize deposit/winnings and when they will ask for a reason - I make up some reasons or even do not give any reason because there are no reason at all. Because I have the terms and conditions, I can have anyone's money anytime. No, I can not.

If any case comes in the community we need to evaluate the cases depending on their merits. There are fake cases as well.

@EpicChamp, if I was you then I would be furious for a while. It's normal that you feel cheated. But here maybe there are some mistakes from the providers they use, hence they revised the odd and informed their clients (you and other who placed the bet in the same market) before the match kicked off. I would consider it wrong if they would give the reason after you had the match settled. Still this is not black and white but not wrong too.

Have you got your stake back in full? I think few sats left if I calculated it correct. Here the case could be for those few sats that lefts. If you get the stake back in full then let's move on like nutildah said already.

We all have our bitter experiences, and we need to learn living with them. Sorry you had this bad experience.

brutal deception of fortunejack. see the judge's justification for obvious error
https://valuebettingblog.com/how-i-beat-888sport-in-court-and-got-paid/
– If there was an error on the bookmakers part, it cannot be passed on to the consumer

Good story to read and happy to see that the guy won eventually.

Remember we are not lawyers and this is an open forum. If there is a chance for OP to take legal action then he can use the same route. Good luck to OP.

PS: Sorry I ran out of smerit. This reference deserves some merit.

Wow, that's a great story to read. As you can see, the amount is 1500€ which is just a good amount and worth filing a case. I think that the amounts ripped by Fortune Jack are worth filing a case and running behind them. I'm sure that alot of legendary members and well-known members here are running the fortune jack's signature campaign, where are you guys? Do you think that it's legal to cancel this type of bets, even if they cancel it then they should return the stake amount to the OP. Just my my 2¢.

This is the problem. I have NOT received my remaining stake of this bet at all.

I asked them why are you not returning me the remaining amount, and they're saying they will not do it because I already "partially" cashed out the night before. I mean what the heck?!

It shouldn't matter if I cash out partially or not, I had a lot of money still left on this bet, and it should be treated just like any other regular bet.

And just like any other regular bet, in the case of a cancelation of a match for whatever reason (withdrawal, retirement, weather, etc) - they MUST return back the initial stake, which they are refusing to do.

Honestly, if I knew this crap was going to happen and it was going to be such a big problem - I would have just cashed out in full the night before for 0.238 BTC with a 0.1 profit and would never have to deal with this bs.

I just can't believe that they think this is ok to just do such shady and unethical things and basically do whatever they want on their site without respecting and honoring their bets & users.

They sent me their terms and conditions, and nowhere in there does it say that in the case of a match cancelation (during or prior to the match for whatever reason), that the remaining stake of the bet will NOT be returned. It must and is always returned if a match gets canceled in advance. So at the bare minimum, they need to return the remaining 0.067 BTC I had left on this bet. But even more than that, it should be ~0.1 BTC as I explained in my original post.

In terms of canceling a match in advance, it is not very clear on their terms of when it is ok for them to cancel and when it is not. Although their reasoning is clearly a "change of odds from 2.6 to 1.7" which is COMPLETE BS and is not a valid reason to cancel a bet in advance, as odds change all the time!

I think Fortunejack does have all the rights to cancel a bet here. It is not about a minor change. If odds went from 2.6 to 2.5, they shouldn't cancel it. If it goes from 2.6 to 1.7, that's not a normal change.
It indicates that the odds were incorrect at the time the match was about to start. So there is no longer a marginal difference. I think a lot of bookies would make this decision. Does seem normal to me?
These kind of things can happen with betting.

It doesn't matter, it's not my fault the odds changed after already having placed the bet. The 1.7 odds never actually happened btw, he dropped to around 1.3 universally amongst other betting sites, yet not a single other site canceled the bet in advance for those who got in early (or even later for that matter, as you can't just cancel it for few people who have better odds and keep it for everyone else).

It's not the first or the last time there is a change of odds prior to a match, but rarely ever does it get canceled like this.  

In any way, if they're gonna cancel my bet - they need to return the remaining stake I had on it which is 0.067 or 0.1 BTC which they are refusing to do right now and don't even bother giving a proper & logical explanation.

This is surely a big mess.  They already admit there fault by giving OP the option for cash out with profit a night before the game. They are the one who gave a complimentary option just to continue the game knowing that there's an error ongoing in the odds. They should just cancel it before the match start and not let OP hope for his bet.

The thing is, they just wait for the result of the game then made a decision after OP bet has won.


I hope FJ will reconsider your case.

I wish that was the case exactly, but they actually sent me an email informing me about the cancellation of this bet 2-3 hours prior to it (which I did not see at the time because I was sleeping and normally don't check my emails).

The problem is that their reasoning for it is illogical and unjustifiable, and even in the case of a cancellation prior to the start of the match - they must return the remaining stake on the bet, which they haven't.

So in all fairness, I should win 0.174 BTC because the player I bet on won the match, but at the very least they need to return what was left on the bet from the night before which is 0.067 BTC.

they have no right to cancel a bet except in case of a technical error.and there is a drop of the odds all the time and people play for cashout in beta and other sites. there is also a drop from 13.00 to 1.05 which is almost 100 percent cashout

---

The main reason (among others) for the refusal is that frequent signals for non-payment of profits were filed against them - multiple cases of canceled bets at their discretion through free interpretation of the rules and conditions. The last of these cases is from 18.12.2018 in the football match Chivas Guadalajara - Esperance Tunisia from the World Club Cup. Hours after the end of the sporting event, the odds for the winning team were halved and customers with a winning bet were damaged. A number of complaints followed through the electronic form of the SCG website, with the only response from the operator being a standardized response (attached below) to customers that the website reserves the right to adjust bets. Two months after this case, Betfair's license was not renewed, and mass consumer dissatisfaction with this particular case may have tipped the scales for the decision.
Purely legally, the refusal to renew the operator's license last year can be interpreted as an administrative measure for the above violations. Such an interpretation automatically rejects their possibility of obtaining a license under Art. 6, para. 1, item 1 of ZH for a period of 5 years. The main function of the SCG under this law is to form a proper state policy in the supervision of gambling, in particular to prevent proven incorrect online operators. Therefore, the decision of the SCG on the new application of Betfair will be a test of the integrity and consistency of the actions of the SCG to individual licensees.

---

it is a big fine and license revocation for such fraudulent practices

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Their email is 100% true and I would even prove it with a screenshot if I could somehow upload images on here.

I really hope one of their representatives sees this thread and does something about it, because what they did is complete bs and pure injustice.

Inaccurate explanation + unethical decision behind a bet cancelation should never be allowed.

I have 2 questions if you don't mind, just for clarification:

1. Did they send you the cancellation notice email before the match had started?

2. Are you able to withdraw your initial deposit?

Knowing the answer to these might go a long way in determining what to do next.

1. Yes they have, but I was sleeping during this time and did not see it until after the match was over. Even if I had seen it, their reasoning is complete BS and doesn't make any sense, because De Jong's winning odds were never at 1.70 up until that point.

2. The night before I partially cashed out 0.1394 or 0.1396 BTC (which is still technically below my 0.14 deposit + bet) and then withdrew it from their site.

The remainder of the amount that was left on the bet I never got back. Not the winning amount neither the remaining stake of 0.067 BTC.

Thank you, I hope so too. They have to learn and understand that they cannot just do whatever they want and get away with it. They need to have some common sense and respect fair play to users.

Makes me wonder and question what would have happened in this situation had I NOT cashed out anything the night before. Would I have lost my entire 0.14 BTC bet too? Or would they would have returned it to me?

Because if they had canceled the match the same way & returned it to me, then they should also return any other partial bet that was on this match as well.

Partial bets should not be treated any differently than regular bets that had no partial cashouts.

And if they wouldn't have returned it to me, then this would have been even 10x worse as I would have lost all my money after having picked the right player to win.

In what world would this make any sense?

Thanks for being honest about what happened.


Hmm... I can see how you'd be pissed off... You were allowed to cash out a portion of the bet, then they retroactively canceled the bet. I think that if they responded they would probably just draw from their terms and conditions to avoid having to pay you anything additional. For example, this is toward the beginning of their Sportsbook Terms (https://fortunejack.com/faq/sportsbook):


This could also apply as you managed to make money risk-free from what was an apparent "mistake" in the line:


I'm not taking FJ's side but preparing you for how they will probably respond.

I understand this rule and thank you for bringing it up - but my point is, if they gave me the opportunity to cash out partially the night before, knowing this may have been a technical error on their end (as well as giving me an option to cashout IN FULL for 0.238 BTC), then they should honor this bet as a win and not cancel it last minute when they changed the odds 1-2 hours after I got in for 2.6. And if they did decide to cancel so late, then they should be returning my remaining stake on the bet. Especially if they were willing to pay me 0.238 BTC (instant 0.1 btc profit) for cashing out in full the day before.

And regarding the 2nd rule/point - there was still a lot of risk for me involved. I risked 0.067 BTC to potentially win 0.174 BTC if my player won, and if he had lost I was willing to lose it all fair & square.

If I wanted to avoid any risk, I would have just cashed it all out and called it a day, but I kept 50% of the stake and was willing to take the risk to win even more if De Jong won that match, which he did.

So in the case of a cancelation like this, they need to return the remaining amount because that is what was at stake on this particular bet.

In fact, I was technically risking 0.1 BTC because that is the extra amount I would have earned had I cashed out in full the night before, vs 0.174 of what I could have won had De Jong won the match.

So technically, not only did I lose a stake of 0.067 BTC, but I actually ending up losing ~ 0.1 BTC instead if that makes sense, which now makes this look even worse and adds an extra twist to this whole mess.

I can understand that this is irritating and infuriating but honestly - I don't see what you are arguing for here.

You got your original money back, no? What happens after that (since they cancelled it before the match) should not matter. Your point is that "your money" (which is technically not yours since you got your money back) should be paid back to you but I just can't see why it should?

Let's play with the idea that your betsize was 10x as large, do you mean to tell me that you place a bet for 1.4BTC, cash out 1.4BTC due to the odds dropping drastically and then once the bet is cancelled you demand to get another 0.67BTC on top of it, for a bet that was never live to begin with? It makes absolutely no sense.

And this is me looking past the fact that in your title you claim that they "refuse to return your btc" which is.. a lie?

Because I had an open bet with a lot of money remaining at stake that could have easily & instantly been mine with a click of a button. So if they decide to cancel it then they need to return that stake and treat it just like any other bet.

Otherwise, how can this even be classified as a bet to begin with? (if it didn't have anything on it)

It's 1 thing to lose this money entirely if the player I bet goes on to lose the match (which is the only risk I was willing to take when I decided to partially cash out), but in the case of a match cancelation (before or during the match for whatever reason, doesn't matter) it should simply be returned back to me.

Otherwise, if I had known I would be at the risk of LOSING the whole 0.067 BTC / 0.1 BTC in this kind of scenario in the case of a bet cancelation ON TOP of accepting the risk of my player losing the match (when I had to make this decision the evening before), then I would have honestly just cashed out the entire bet in full for 0.238 BTC instead of 0.139 BTC when I had the chance of doing so; and that way I would have instantly profited ~0.1 BTC without having to worry about any of this crap right now.

FortuneJack needs to take responsibility for opening this bet at the given odds, and honoring that bet in full for those who took advantage of it early on just like every other gambling site did on that day.

And if they decide to crack and bend the rules to cancel the match in advance because of their "mistake" (with stupid reasoning that is completely inaccurate), then at the very least they need to return the remaining amount that was left on this bet. And that's a lot of money at stake here, it's not your typical 2 or low 3 digit bet.

Since you cashed out your bet and you took your stake back, Forjunejack is not paying you the 0.067 BTC that wasn't cashed out as you already took back your original stake.

In their mind, your bet was voided and since you took your money back, for them there is nothing more to discuss.

Imo, you are wrongly chasing those 0.067 BTC.

You should chase the full amount of your bet.

Either you deserve paying in full or nothing.

Imo this story has 2 thinks to examine:

1) Odds are dropping everyday. This is a fact.

Bookies have absolute no reason to void a bet cause odds drop from 2.30 to 1.70, from 2.30 to 1.30 etc. You will never see pinnacle voiding a bet placed at 2.30 cause a rich gambler decided later to smash a line from 2.30 to 1.30. Odds are moving as bookmakers need to hedge their bets.

Those who think that odds drop is not normal and is happening in only rare cases, they can check the link below for daily odds drop. Simply there are dozens of such cases every day.

https://www.oddsportal.com/dropping-odds/

Noone of the games listed above is going to be voided from any fair bookmaker.

2) The big question in your case imo is:

The odds set from Fortjunejack was an obvious error?

If odds were obvious error, then imo they can void this bet. Imagine Bet365 opened Barcelona to beat Leganes at odds 10/1 when whole world had odds at 1/2. Will they honor bets on Barcelona at 10/1? No way.

If Fortunejack odds though were in line with all other books at the time you took the bet, then thinks are getting complicated. How Forjunejack can claim that they had wrong odds when the whole bookies worldwide had same odds as Forjunejack?

Personally got no idea about Tennis so can't answer if early odds at 2.30 were obvious pulp or not.

Someone who is expert with Tennis and can judge if those early odds at 2.30 were obvious error or not, should act as mediator for you and FJ imo.

It does not matter if you have seen the email or not, the fact is that they sent you the email before the match started.

Now, one question could be - did they sent you the email before the partial amount you cashed out or after the partial amount cashed out? Here I do not know what will be the valid case if they email you after the partial cash out. Will the email be the notification of cancelling the remaining stake or the entire stake since the cashed out money should be yours already.

@EpicChamp, Look I have a bad reputation (to some users LOL (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5302905.0)) of going against sport books, as long as I see a claim is genuine in my judgement then I do not care if they are in business from a decade with a billion dollar's reputation, or they just started yesterday. I treat the same and believe in evidences.

In your case no evidences required yet since you already said that you partially cashed out 0.1394 or 0.1396 BTC and your bet amount was 0.14 BTC (in the first line of your opening post). If the cashed out amount is 0.1394 BTC (for example) then they owe you 0.0006 BTC.


Now you are confusing me/us - after the bet (stake 0.14 BTC) did you still have 0.14 left in your account?

Anyway, overall this is what I am understanding.
Technically FJ still owe you 0.0006 BTC (if the cashed out amount was 0.1394 BTC, if your stake was 0.14BTC and if they sent you email before the match and partial cashed out). I can not blame them because they sent the email before the match starts and partial cashed out (assuming), once they give you the remaining 0.0006 BTC of the stake.

I also said in my last post that this does not look black and white and not wrong too (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5304432.msg55958318#msg55958318). So if you are not happy with the outcome and I understand your frustration - I would suggest taking this to the court as we have seen there was a case that was won in the court (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5304432.msg55959056#msg55959056).

PS: Did anyone PM FortuneJack to have an input in this thread? I think we can hear a story from their side too.

1. Of course ideally I want to earn my full amount, as I 100% believe I deserve to win it fair & square. Canceling this bet that late was complete nonsense on their end, and goes against all fair play. It was an open bet with a lot of money at stake (despite the partial cashout the day before), and of course I deserve to win it and not have it be canceled right before the match is about it start. But worst-case scenario they need to return what was left on that bet. You can't just cancel a bet and not return to the person the stake of that bet, cuz that is complete bs & robbery at its finest. If I knew this was going to happen, I would have cashed out in full the day before and would have been guarenteed to win an extra 0.1 BTC when I had the chance, instead of simply "getting my money back".

2. The thing is, it wasn't just FortuneJack that opened him at these odds. An hour or so before I placed my bet, he was given at 3.0 and 3.1 on other gambling sites (Cloudbet & Stake for instance), before slowly dropping to 2.8 30mins later, and then ultimately 2.6 by the time I transferred my BTC to make the bet.

So you can say it was a universal error across all betting sites before he dropped form above 2.6 to below 1.35, but all other sites honored all users who had him winning at odds 2.6 & above and it seems as though FortuneJack is the only one that is giving me problems about it.

How is that possibly be right or fair?

To me it's completely unacceptable and I really hope something will be done about this.

1. The email was sent many hours after I had already partially cashed out 0.1394 btc from the day before. I would estimate that it was sent around 11-12 hours later and 2-3 hours before the start of the match.

And while from that standpoint or point of view you can say they owe me "0.0006 BTC", but what is that even gonna do? That's only gonna cover the fee to transfer my BTC and that's it. The REAL loss here is 100-300x that amount.

2. After I did the partial cashout for 0.1394 btc, I withdrew it from their site to my wallet and had nothing else left except the open bet with a stake of 0.067 BTC at 2.6 odds to win 0.174 BTC. I did this because I did not want to keep such a large amount on any gambling site as it is never 100% secure.

Here are the 3 variations of my ACTUAL losses that I had from this bet cancelation:

1. ACTUAL loss = 0.067 BTC (this was the remaining amount I had left on this bet at 2.6 odds which was about 50% of the partial cashout)
2. OPPORTUNITY COST loss = ~0.1 BTC (I could have cashed out everything the night before for 0.238 BTC and profited nearly 0.1 btc on top of my initial 0.14 btc bet). This to me is the real loss I suffered from this scenario in the case of a bet cancelation.
3. EXPECTED / WINNING loss = 0.174 BTC because in 99.9% of scenarios where this match would and should have been played out as usual despite the change of odds that happen ALL THE TIME, I would have earned 0.174 btc fair & square. Every other gambling site let the match play out as usual, so why can't FortuneJack do the same?

So no, they don't just owe me 0.0006 BTC, they owe me 100-300x that amount because of their unjustifiable reasoning and way of running their site. 

And no, no one from FortuneJack has reached out to me about this yet. I hope this can get their attention and they can fix this as soon as possible because I have been waiting over a month now and they don't seem to care at all and lately have been completely ignoring my emails.

Quoting the entire response for reference. I will PM FortuneJack to have an statement in here so that we know their story in public before I say anything else.

Thank you very much, that would be greatly appreciated!

Just to add to this, canceling this bet right before the start of the match was completely wrong & unethical as no other site did this, and I 100% believe I deserve to win this bet in full vs only getting 0.067 or 0.1 BTC back, much like the previous user above you mentioned. Plus, their reasoning for canceling the bet is completely inaccurate and illogical as well, as De Jong was never given 1.7 odds to win this match like they claimed in the initial email. You can even verify this through the oddsportal website.

FJ as a sportsbook has every right to cancel any match for any reason so long as they do it before it starts. You are not entitled to something because of it - had they done it when the game started or afterwards then you'd have a case here but as of now there is nothing. Bet was canceled BEFORE it was being played, what happened after matters not.

Of course they can theoretically cancel a bet in advance, but they need to justify it with a valid reason; otherwise, they cannot just randomly cancel a bet in advance for no reason AFTER a user has already placed the bet. And in this case, their reasoning is completely wrong and invalid because their explanation is simply not true.

They claim that they did it because of a change of odds from 2.6 to 1.7, but 1.7 never happened and you can verify this with a site like oddsportal.

And now they can't just make something else up because it goes against their original explanation, so they should simply take responsibility for posting De Jong above 2.6 odds for several hours the day before, and anyone who bet on him to win at these odds should be rewarded for it. Fair & simple.

And canceling a bet because of a change of odds (even if it wasn't 1.7) is never a valid enough reason to cancel a bet/match, because odds change all the time in sports and they know that. It's not my fault that I got in at higher odds and then he dropped for whatever reason. It's not the first or last time this happens, and in the past bets have never gotten canceled because of this. (I cannot count how many times in the past I bet on a player to win at higher odds, and then his odds have dropped and I still won the bet - and same thing vice versa when it happened against me).

Fair and simple.. For you?

Perhaps we should also look into anyone who placed a bet on the opposite result and retroactively take btc from their accounts to fund your "fair and simple win". That'll make sense right and it would be fair and simple to them too, right?

It would be 100% fair because if they got in late then it's their problem, not mine. Betting odds change all the time and you have to take it at face value for what the odds are at PRESENT time, not what they were in the past or could be in the future or a few hours later.

If you don't do any gambling then you obv don't seem to get it or understand how this works.

Oh believe me - i get "it". You want to be paid for a game that was canceled BEFORE it was being played. If anything you don't seem to get it.

Of course I deserve to get paid, because they had no valid explanation or reasoning to cancel this bet in advance to begin with. Every other site kept this bet open throughout the entire match DESPITE the drastic change of odds. I even have a friend who used another site and got in at even better odds than me (I think 2.8 or 3.0) and they counted his bet as a win.

Same with all the other betting sites. Because that is how it works and how it should always be done.

Yet FortuneJack refuses to pay me for my winning bet and then has the guts to take away all the stake I had on this bet and keep it to themselves. This is the part that annoys me the most.

In what world does this possibly make ANY sense?

They might have the right to do it, but that doesn't make them not shady if they unjustifiably cancelled a bet. There's a reason sportsbooks don't cancel all bets that have had line movement against them.

In principle, with a license from Curacao, they can do whatever they want.

I'm sorry but if they can just do whatever they want then what's the point of even having any rules to begin with and betting with FortuneJack at all? I don't care where they're based, they should stick to basic universal & ethical rules and conduct fair play at all times.

I'm sick & tired of all these centralized companies who just bend the rules in their favor and do whatever they want while getting away with it. If you're going to operate a gambling site and/or casino, it MUST be fair play to both parties. Not in favor of anyone.

Otherwise, they will have a terrible reputation in the industry and it would be rightly so. Shocking coming from a company that's been around for such a long time.

If they don't reward me with my winning amount (or at the bare minimum give me my money back), I will never bet with them again and will NEVER say good things about them to anyone due to their shady, unethical, and unjust activities & behaviour.

[/font]
Excuse me but what you wrote does not make sense.

FJ can void a bet before it was being played ONLY IF odds were obvious error.

OP placed a bet when odds were 2.60.

Bet was voided only after odds were down to 1.30.

When closing odds are 1.30 his probability of winning the bet were much higher than when he placed his bet. By voiding his bet, OP is the one who lost and not FJ.

This is not fair.

To summarize: - FJ can void this bet only if odds were obvious palp.
                      - If they wanted not to take any risk for this game, they should have forced him to fully cashed out his bet prior the game start but no way voiding his bet. Given
                         that odds moved in OP's favor, he would have a descent profit as well which is normal since he spotted good value at 2.60

https://justiceforpunters.org/complaining/
there were also many cases in which the court or the regulator forced bookmakers to pay for technical errors. for example, instead of odds 1.01, odds were given 101 and tens of millions were paid to players

That's an interesting case.

And as for my particular scenario - it was far from such a grandiose technical error. 

This is interesting, from the three options OP had which is;

1. Cash out in full for around 0.238 BTC (0 risk and guaranteed instant reward of nearly 0.1 BTC)
2. Not cash out at all with a chance to win 0.364 BTC (100% risk and 0 guarantee of winning)
3. Cash out partially for whatever amount I wanted while still keeping the bet open (less risk and less return/reward, a nice balance of the 2)

If @EpicChamp choose option 3 of partially cashing out say 50% of initial wager which is 0.07 BTC instead of what he got how would have fortune Jack dealt with this ? Were they going to hold on the players other half siting T&Cs?? I don't think so!

IMO FJs mistake should not be passed onto its players,they should take the hit and save face...just my 2cents!

1. Withdraw would probably be picked up in a security check and they'd just let him keep the initial amount (the bet amount).
2. Bet cancelled and stake returned, stake.. not potential win.
3. They'd most likely give him back the difference which was his bet.

IMO, it is pretty clear-cut but let's see when/if FJ responds.

For #1, I guarantee you the whole amount would have showed up in my account and I would have been able to withdraw it in full from their site if I wanted to, much like I cashed out 0.1394 BTC and withdrew it from their exchange that day without any issues.

For #2, if they were going to cancel this "regular" bet just as any other bet in the case of a match cancelation and return the stake, then they should do the same thing for a partially cashed out bet. I still had a LOT of money/btc remaining on it, and it should NOT be treated any different to a regular bet that had no (partial) cashouts.

---

Also, another point I'd like to bring up and something I'd really like to know - is what happened to all the bets for everyone on FortuneJack who bet on De Jong to win AFTER the change of odds when he was at around 1.30 to win?

Did FortuneJack also send them an email 2 hours before the match was about to start, saying that they decided to cancel it? And then did not return them their stake at the time?

I HIGHLY, HIGHLY doubt it. Otherwise, people would be shocked if this happened and it wouldn't make any sense because at that point, the odds were barely changing he always remained between 1.2-1.3 to win.

And assuming they haven't, how is it fair that for 1 group of people the bet for the same match gets canceled, and for another group it remains active/in play before + during the match?

It's either you cancel it for everyone, or you cancel for no one. And in situations like these where there is only a change of odds, match/bet cancelations should never occur.  

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Hello @EpicChamp,

We're aware of the case you're talking about, will be making an official announcement here for the community.

Please do, I would love to see what you have to say about this publicly to everyone on here.

Hello everyone,

Sorry for replying kind of late to the on-going case under the username of @EpicChamp. Since the beginning of the event, our team has been actively working onto the solution that would be appealing to every member of the Bitcointalk community. We think the decision our company made aligns to the priorities of FortuneJack, including but not limited to strictly following the Terms and Conditions & the existing Privacy Policy to maintain the overall fairness to every single player of our platform.

Generally speaking, the majority of the Sportsbooks do change the odds all the time, that’s not an unusual event to be occurring. However, the casino as a whole is responsible to remind the player in advance about the upcoming change to the on-going bet slip. So did our team, after the odds had dropped from 2.6 to a 1.2-1.3 favorite.

https://i.ibb.co/YT31ffP/1.png

In addition to notifying the user beforehand, according to the General Provisions of Sportsbook Terms and Conditions, the company does reserve the right to cancel coefficient in case of any technical or mechanical fault. In the concrete, the odds of the match that @EpicChamp chose, was mistakenly supplied by the official partner of our betting data services, betradar. Right after, our in-office specialists received the message regarding the technically / mechanically typed out odd, including the recommendation to straightaway cancel the on-going bet, our team had to as well take immediate action of terminating the bet slip and removing the remaining balance from the account.

Here’s the screenshot of the email briefly explaining what, when and how the odds mistakenly displayed on our end, sent by the team of in-office bookmakers, that in charge of regulating the markets.

https://i.ibb.co/BZY2d0r/2.png

As for now, player has already withdrawn the initial deposit in full. The remaining stake and a possible winning amount were not credited to the player, as both of the events arise right after classifying the case under the technical/mechanical fault, meaning that odds were mistakenly sent out from betradar. Bet was canceled before it was being played, so we don’t think it’s fair to be talking about the fact of receiving the remaining amount + the possible win.

All the proofs, showcasing the reason behind canceling the bet along with a set of rules within the Terms and Conditions of FJ, implies to the fact that the case we’re talking about should be closed, with no further investigation.

Thanks for your response FJ. I really appreciate your decision to share your experience with us.

Let's forget about the terms and conditions for a few minutes because we all understand and know that by showing the terms and conditions a bookie can make anything possible in their favor unless it has been taken to the court and the law has a different view in it. We are not the law makers but bunches of shitposters who have no day job (possibly) and spend all the day in an anonymous forum for nothing LOL. Bitcoin is a drag and I blame satoshi to create this forum. Theymos also need to take some blames :-D

Anyway jokes aside, lets be serious and let me explain my view considering the following quote from you:
Please pay attention to both bold fonts.


So it was suppose to be on-going bet/s and it's completely fine with me. In fact, in my first post in this topic I said something similar to the OP that they (you) informed you (OP) before the match started.

Anyway, according to the player he cashed out partially before receiving your email. Once I will cash out something then this is my money. Correct?
The other partial was ongoing bet which had the stake 0.067 BTC, in other words the on-going bet had an stake of 0.067 BTC.

When you cancel a bet you return the stake and keep the winning (if it was won).

So technically in my opinion, considering the mistake that happened from your provider, considering the communication time, considering the partial cashing out before the email sent, considering the on-going bet after the email sent - I think you owe the OP 0.067 BTC which was his stake by that time after you informed him.

This is what I personally think will be a fair ending. Again thanks for your response and happy new year ahead.

Cheers,

If the initial deposit was fully returned and even withdrawn already, I think it's a normal resolution of a tricky situation. But some things remain unclear to me: if the op received the full stake back, why was he unhappy about not receiving something (apart from not getting the win)? To be honest, I don't understand why the player was able to cash out with a win prior to the match outcome. I cashed out early only a couple of times in my life, so maybe I'm missing something, but in those cases I lost a small fee due to backing out, and it was fair. So this situation with the op cashing out partially, but it was still almost the full initial stake, and then some hypothetical remainder being left as a bet on De Jong is quite confusing.

It wasn't manually returned by them or by their own will, I had the option to and simply decided to cash out whatever amount I wanted, and decided to partially cash out 0.1394 BTC myself while keeping the remaining 50% of the bet open for the match the next day.

And the other remaining 50% I had left (0.067 BTC at 2.6 odds or ~0.1 BTC from the extra amount I could have cashed out in full the day before) FortuneJack refuses to return it after canceling my bet 2 hours before the match.

This should have been done right away, and I should not even be asking them to do this. It's a complete no-brainer and in every situation where a match gets canceled, the remaining stake of the bet is always returned in full to the bettor. Plain & simple, no questions asked.

So I don't see what their problem is with returning my remaining stake after deciding to cancel this match, as that always happens for any bet right away - whether it is a regular bet that hasn't been touched, or a partially cashed-out bet.

That is the bare minimum I'm looking for them to do, and it's something that should have been done a long time ago.

But ultimately I am going for much more than that, and have them count my bet as a win because I 100% deserve to win it, and they should have never have canceled this bet in the first place to begin with. ESPECIALLY since this match was given various live in-play odds (for different scenarios) and wasn't canceled for everyone who had a bet on it before or during the match.

Because as it stands right now, they are basically counting this bet as a complete LOSS by not only not rewarding it as a win, but not returning the remainder stake either which never happens when a bet gets canceled for whatever reason.

First off, thank you for replying back to me and the community here.

Also, I would like to address and say a few things about your response:

A. A technical/mechanical error can mean a lot of different things. To me and much like another user mentioned a few posts earlier, a "technical" error is a completely accidental error that features odds at a ridiculously and completely different value than what they were intended to be initially, due to a simple computer error such as adding another 0, 1, or decimal to the odds.

For example, for a Roger Federer vs Juan Martin Del Potro match, let's say that normally Federer would to be a 1.5 favorite to win the match. But due to a "technical" error, he was posted at 15.0 odds to win instead. And as soon as people saw it, they jumped at these odds right away because the valuation is simply wayyy too good - because how can Roger Federer be such a huge "underdog" against Del Potro?!

But because it was a truly honest mistake and a complete "technical" error, the bookmaker *could* have the right to cancel the bet in advance and RETURN THE FULL STAKE to everyone who made the bet. Although EVEN in this case of a technical error, as the previous person mentioned above, when a case like this was taken to court - the bookmaker lost the legal case and was forced to pay millions of dollars to everyone who got into this bet at the ridiculously high valuation odds they posted due to their technical error.

But if this kind of mistake happened in my favor, then I would have no problem accepting it as an honest mistake from your end and would be totally fine with my bet being canceled prior to the match, as long as you RETURNED MY REMAINING STAKE.

HOWEVER, I would NOT consider my situation to be a "technical" error, because although there was a difference in odds from what they were at initially to what they changed to later, this was not a technical error and instead more of a regular odd-changing scenario due to various other reasons or factors. So this was more of an initial judgment error/mistake and a regular case of a change of odds, instead of a "technical' or 'mechanical" error.

And since Altamirano is a pretty good player who is much older and a lot more experienced at the challenger level than De Jong and there isn't a huge gap between their rankings, I was not completely surprised that he was originally chosen to be the favorite player to win this match considering this information. Him winning at 1.4-1.5 odds and De Jong being at 2.6 is not that unreasonable or wrong because there are 10+ different reasons and factors I can say to support and back up these odds as well.

So please don't say that this was a technical error because it really wasn't, you simply misjudged and/or underestimated De Jong's potential to win the match in the beginning, and then decided to change the odds after realizing this by making him a much bigger favorite to win.

And then of course you wanted to cover yourself and minimize your risk + avoid potentially losing a fairly big bet like this, so you decided to cancel my bet right before the match was about to start without even RETURNING my remaining stake!

This is not how it works and is wrong & unethical in many ways, and you know it. Anytime there is a regular change of odds, a bet cannot be canceled and should be played out normally just like any other bet.

B. In this post you even claim yourself that odds changed from 2.6 to 1.2-1.3 - but that is NOT what you claimed in the email that you sent me when you decided to cancel my bet. In the email you wrote that the odds dropped from 2.6 to "1.7", and that THAT was the reason why you decided to cancel this bet - the change of odds from 2.6 to 1.7 was your reasoning. And there is a big difference between a simple change of odds (as odds change all the time) and a technical error, and in your email you did not mention anything about it being a technical error.

So that reasoning is completely wrong because De Jong was NEVER given 1.7 odds of winning this match. You just made this number out of thin air and canceled my bet without a valid or accurate reason. Because as I said above, you did not mention anything about there being a "technical" or "mechanical" error or anything else besides the change of odds between 2.6 to 1.7 (which in itself is not that significant, nor is uncommon to happen in tennis or other sports, where bets never get canceled because of this), and yet now you are claiming something different.

Also, even if the odds DID somehow drop from 2.6 to 1.7 - that is not such a significant difference to a point of canceling the entire bet before a match is about to start. In the past, there have been MUCH greater changes of odds for different matches & sports, and yet people's bets were never canceled by the bookmaker before the match was about to start because of that because that would be against the rules. So canceling a bet for such a small change of odds does not make any logical sense and is not allowed.

So for that kind of lame & inaccurate reasoning (saying it changed to 1.7 when it never did), you have no right to cancel my bet ON TOP of a regular situation of a change of odds, even if it wasn't 1.7.

C. Your reasoning for not returning my remaining open stake for 0.067 BTC or ~0.1 BTC is the following:

"The remaining stake and a possible winning amount were not credited to the player, as both of the events arise right after classifying the case under the technical/mechanical fault, meaning that odds were mistakenly sent out from betradar."

First off, it's funny how you keep pointing fingers and blaming "betradar" multiple times for "mistakingly" giving you the wrong odds, and yet refuse to take ANY responsibility YOURSELF for not verifying those odds BEFORE officially posting them on your webssite. I can care less about who and how you get your odds from, or who the heck your odd provider is - because it doesn't matter. You must always verfiy every odd yourself before posting it on your site, and need to take full and 100% responsibility for every single bet you officially post on for your users to bet with, and not blame or point fingers at someone else for giving you the wrong odds.

That is such a lame and terrible excuse for trying to justify why you posted the odds at 2.6 (and also 2.8 + 3.0 an hour before) instead of 1.2-1.3 right away.

I really don't care about how or why you decided to do that, and it is not my fault that you made it official and gave me and other people on FortuneJack the opportunity to bet on De Jong at 2.6 odds at that given time.

If you are not the one coming up with the odds, you should always do your own due diligence and double-check every odd for every match, before officially posting it on your website.

Yet instead of taking full responsibility for it and owning up for your mistake by honoring my bet and counting it as a win, you are purposely trying to prevent me from winning the bet for 0.1746 BTC by unjustly canceling my bet right before the match was about to start to minimize YOUR risk of losing this bet.

And on top of that, you are also refusing to return my remaining stake back for your own benefit - which on the face value is 0.067 BTC, but really should be ~0.1 BTC because you gave me the option to cash out my bet in FULL the day before for 0.238 BTC for a profit of nearly ~0.1  BTC. So in essence, after my partial cashout from the day before, I was at the risk of losing 0.1 BTC for a chance to win 0.1746 BTC which I rightly and 100% deserve to win. And in the case of a cancelation, you NEED to return back my remainder take.

You also said that the "Bet was canceled before it was being played, so we don’t think it’s fair to be talking about the fact of receiving the remaining amount + the possible win."

So tell me then - in what world IS IT fair or makes any sense for an online gambling site to cancel a match + a person's bet for whatever reason, and then NOT return to that person their remaining stake of that bet?!

Anytime a match is canceled, whether it is due to a walkover, retirement, weather conditions, or because of situations like COVID - the stake of the bet is ALWAYS returned to the bettor. NEVER in a million years has a bet been canceled and the person's stake was kept to the gambling site, it has never happened to me or ANY of my friends before who have been gambling for 10+ years.

This is a complete no-brainer & non-negotiable, and should have been done right away AS SOON as you canceled my bet and sent me that email. I still cannot believe I have to explain this to you because even a 10-year-old kid would understand why you need to return back my stake if you decide to cancel the bet. And the fact that I "partially" cashed out the day before, is completely irrelevant and has NOTHING to do with how much was remaining at stake to win this bet at 2.6 odds. Which again, as I said was a LARGE amount of 0.067 BTC at face value, and 0.1 BTC at a real value ($1900 and $2850 respectively).

The only scenario or situation where this would be 100% ok and make perfect sense, is if the match was played out in full without any cancellations, and the player who I bet on ended up losing it. But if you're going to cancel the bet in advance, you NEED to return the right stake amount which is this case should be ~0.1 BTC or at least 0.067 BTC. And this should have been done right away on that day.

D. Here is another point I want to bring up that I asked in my previous post about why I believe this bet should not be cancelled and count as a win:

What exactly happened to all the bets for everyone on FortuneJack who bet on De Jong to win the match AFTER the odds changed when he was at around 1.30 to win?

Did you also send all these people an email 2 hours before the match was about to start, saying that they decided to cancel it? And then did not return them their stake at the time?

I HIGHLY, HIGHLY doubt it. Otherwise, people would be completely shocked if this happened and it wouldn't make any sense because at that time, the odds were barely changing or moving as he always remained a big favorite to win between 1.2-1.3 odds.

And since you haven't canceled this bet for other people who bet on De Jong between 1.2-1.3 odds, how is it fair or right that for 1 group of people the bet for the same match gets canceled, and for another group it remains active/open before AND during the match?

Because if I remember correctly, you also had LIVE PLAY available for this match on your website for those who wanted to bet on it during the match. This means you haven't officially canceled this bet or match for everyone on FortuneJack.

This is completely ridiculous because you are not allowed to do this and it goes against all official and ethical rules.

So it's either you cancel the bet for EVERYONE, or you cancel for NO ONE. And in situations like these where there is only a change of odds, match & bet cancelations should never occur.

And if you're not going to cancel this for everyone (which you didn't), you also have no right to cancel this bet or match ONLY for me in advance either.

Due to this and all other reasons I mentioned previously, I 100% deserve to win this bet in full for 0.174 BTC. Your reasoning is very inaccurate and does not make much sense at all, to me and to other people on this forum either.

So I would like you to honor your bets + fair play, and take full responsibility for opening this bet at 2.6 odds even if it was a mistake on your end, and reward me and anyone else who also bet on De Jong at 2.6+ odds the full win.

I look forward to seeing you do the right thing in this situation and showing integrity & good morals in the way you run your business. Not only would I personally appreciate it, but I am sure everyone else here would as well - thanks in advance!

Cheers,

EpicChamp

odds start at 3.00 on bwin betathome, ie on other odds providers. and then gradually falls. there is no reason to cancel the bet. everything else is a scam

Exactly, as I previously mentioned in this thread - De Jong first opened at 3.0-3.1, then 30mins later he dropped to 2.8, and by the time I decided I wanted to make a large bet on this match and transferred over my BTC to their website, he dropped to 2.6. Yet despite missing out on much better odds, I am not complaining and have never complained about how it's so unfair that odds dropped from 3.0/3.1 to 2.6 in less than an hour. I accepted these odds for what they were at the time (although not nearly as lucrative as when I first saw it at 3.0), and still decided to make this bet.

It should be 100% counted and rewarded as a regular win just like any other bet that has goes through a variety of changes in odds before the match or game officially starts.

Canceling this bet is wrong on many levels that I don't understand how FortuneJack thinks it's fair or ok to cancel this bet and then have the audacity to keep my remaining huge stake of 0.067 BTC/0.1 BTC to themselves too (which is equivelent to $1800-$2900). This is the part that frustrates me more than anything else, because right now it's as if they're treating this bet as a loss rather than a cancelation (in which the money is always returned to the bettor in full).

Anything other than keeping this bet open prior to the start of the match and then counting it as a win after De Jong won it - is completely unethical and unacceptable behavior that is never tolerated. FortuneJack needs to show some respect to their users and honor fair play.

Much like if De Jong would have LOST the match to Altamirano, then believe me I would have NEVER complained or brought this up in the first place. I would have simply accepted it as a fair loss and moved on like I always do anytime I lose a bet. Simple as that.

So I expect FortuneJack and any other betting company to do the same and treat my bet as a win.

That's not the problem. FortuneJack canceled the bet before the match started due to a technical error on the part of their odds provider. It can't honor your bet as a win because your bet was cancelled. If your tennis player would have lost, you'd have the same amount of bitcoin. Going on and on about your "remaining stake" is meaningless because your claim to the stake is contingent on having won a bet which you didn't win because it was canceled.

I wonder if other players which bet the other site of the game, betting on 1,4 or whatever odds which then went up to around 3 also got their bets cancelled.

Thats the biggest question for me here.

Listen, I really do not care who their odd provider is; to me as a user that is completely irrelevant to me. If they make these odds official on their website then it is 100% their responsibility whether the odds are as they should be or not, or are theirs vs someone elses. If they post the wrong odds (which I wouldn't even be able to know at the time) and allow me to make a bet, then it is not my problem that the odds are what they at the time of making the bet.

And if they're not the ones who are making their own odds, then they should be extra careful in that regard and always do their extra due diligence and double-check every single bet prior to officially posting it on their site. But blaming it on someone else and not taking responsibility on it when you post it on your own site where you have full control, is very childish, immature, and unprofessional.

Also, I hate the excuse of it being a "technical" error, which is complete BS. It was far from a technical error - it was a simple case of a change of odds. Because if this really was a technical error, then the odds would not have been slowly dropping by 0.20 units every 30mins for 2-3 hours. If they were able to slowly change he odds, then surely they would have seen the "technical" error right away, and instead of slowly lowering the odds of De Jong  - they should have completely frozen the entire match right away and resumed it only after having the updated odds with De Jong being at 1.2-1.3.

However, clearly they were not smart enough to do that as that's not what happened on that day. Instead, they decided to slowly drop the odds and only THEN after a few hours, decided to completely change the odds of the match. And I'm sorry, but this does NOT equate to a technical or unintentional error.

If they slowly dropped the odds from 3.2 to 3.0 to 2.8 and 2.6 over a 2-3 hours timespan, then it was 100% intentional and does NOT translate to a "technical" or accidental error. It was a simple case of a change of odds that happens all the time in tennis and other sports.

Second, as I mentioned in the previous post, if the player I bet on would have lost the match - then I wouldn't have had any issues with losing the bet and my BTC at all, and I guarantee you I would have NEVER brought this up because I 100% believe in honesty, transparency, integrity, and fair play. 

Also, as I was watching the match, I wasn't even AWARE that they decided to cancel my bet beforehand, and while watching it I was 100% committed & prepared to either win it in full for 0.174 BTC, or lose everything I had left on this bet. No in-between. Only after the match ended and I did not receive my winning amount did I discover that they decided to cancel my bet 2 hours before the match was about to start, which is absolutely ridiculous for the reasons I explained in my lengthy post in response to FortuneJack above.

Finally, I still do NOT have the same amount of bitcoin which was at stake for that bet, because after canceling the bet FortuneJack still hasn't returned that amount back to me. This is the part that frustrates and annoys me the most because that should have been done right away in the case of a bet cancelation. Not returning the remaining stake that I had left is complete theft, robbery, and a complete disgrace that crosses all lines & boundaries.

I'm really surprised that you don't seem to understand my point of view and are taking their side in this. Seems like you're the only one here who doesn't seem to get it while everyone else agrees. You should probably re-read everything I wrote and maybe that will make some more sense to you about how deceiving FortuneJack is behaving regarding this bet and whole situation.

---

I am wondering this too and asked something similar to this 2 times already.

I am really wondering about what happened to everyone who bet on this match and De Jong AFTER they dropped from 2.6+ to 1.2-1.3.

Did FortuneJack also send them an email 2 hours before it was about to start saying they're going to cancel it? And then didn't return their stake back?

Of course not! It just wouldn't make any sense and people would be absolutely shocked and go against this decision as well, because at that point the odds were barely changing and there would be no reason at all for canceling it.

And you cannot just cancel it for 1 group of people, and then keep it open for another group of people prior to the start of the match. That's not how it works and goes against all formal and ethical rules.

This situation is a simple case of a change of odds, where some people got in at more favorable odds than others - and that's it.

FortuneJack should take full responsibility for that and award anyone who bet on De Jong their winning bet with the full amount, and take away the stake for anyone who bet on his opponent who ended up losing. That's how it always works.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Have you read my post and everything I've written thus far? Or not?

To summarize:

The day before the match, I had the option (after odds changed) to cash out for 0.238 BTC in full right away if I wanted to, which would have profited me ~0.1 BTC or $3,300 at the current BTC price.

I also had the option to cash out partially. So I decided to do a partial cashout for 50% of the bet instead, and keep the other 50% of the bet (a stake of 0.067 BTC) for the match the next day, for a chance to win 0.174 BTC at 2.6 odds. It just so happened that 50% of the bet that I cashed out was 0.1394 BTC (still below my 0.14 btc initial bet), but I still had "0.067 BTC" remaining on that bet at 2.6 odds. That's equivalent to $2,200 right now.

Then out of the blue, FortuneJack decides to cancel my bet with the remaining 0.067 BTC @ 2.6 odds 2 hours before the match was about to start without any valid or justifiable reason for it.

(They sent me an email stating the wrong drop of odds as their main reasoning, which is not a valid excuse to cancel a bet as odds change all the time and everyone got in at different odds for this match - but that's beyond this point. I wrote more about why this should have never been canceled in the 1st place in my previous posts on this page.)

Then after canceling my remaining 0.067 BTC bet from the day before, they STILL haven't returned that amount back to me. Which basically means that they are counting my bet as a LOSS (as in my player losing the match) rather than a "cancellation". Because anytime a bet gets canceled in tennis (usually due to a withdrawal, retirement, or poor weather), the stake of the bet is always returned back to the better in full.

Yet FortuneJack decided to treat my bet as a loss and keep the entire 0.067 BTC / 0.1 BTC amount to themselves instead of returning it back to me. This is the biggest problem I have with them and what frustrates me the most.

How on earth can it make ANY sense or EVER be allowed?! This is complete theft and robbery at its finest. They have absolutely no right to take away my remaining amount of the bet if they cancel the bet in advance, and have seriously crossed the line & all boundaries by doing this.

Because if they decided to CANCEL my bet, then they must return my remaining stake right away as it's always done. Plain & simple.

And whether the bet should have been canceled in the 1st place or counted as a win is a different case and is ultimately what I'm after (because I they should have never been allowed to cancel the bet for that match), but at the BARE MINIMUM, they must return back to me the 0.067 BTC I had left on that bet. They should've even done it right away on that day.

In fact, they should really be returning ~0.1 BTC because that is how much I was actually risking by keeping half the bet open instead of cashing everything out in full, for a chance to win 0.174 BTC.

Does this make sense to you now?

FJ has already provided a reasonable response:


Just imagine FJ didn't have the cash out option -- your bet would have been returned to you in full. This is about how things ended up working out for you. Just because the cash out option exists it doesn't render your bet valid, as the bet was based on incorrect odds supplied by their provider.

If it seems like we're taking FJ's side, its because they're in the right here. You don't have to like them or use them anymore, but your case isn't going to move the needle on the community's general assessment of their reputation.

But they DID have it available, and after giving me this opportunity you can't just take it back and come up with a bunch of random and lame excuses for not returning it. The fact of that matter is that I had an open bet at 0.067 BTC at 2.6 odds to win 0.174 BTC, and if you're gonna cancel the bet then you must at least return that 0.067 BTC back and treat it just like any other bet - plain & simple. I could have even cashed out for 0.238 BTC and profited 0.1 BTC if I wanted to, and they would have lost even more that way.

Also, on here they wrote that the bet dropped from 2.6 to 1.2-1.3, but in their email they said they decided to cancel it because it dropped from 2.6 to "1.7", which never happened in the first place.

There was also no mention of any technical error in the email either, and this was NOT even a technical error! They may have just accidentally underestimated his chances of winning and then adjusted the odds to what they thought made more sense. That's it.

But that's not a valid excuse to cancel this bet for me. Why should I be penalized for their misjudgment? IF they're going to offer me the option to cash out partially and keep a certain % of the bet open, then they need to honor that option and not steal my money if they decide to cancel the bet.

And why would they cancel the bet only for me and not for everyone else who bet on him after the change of odds? That is completely unfair, unethical, and against the rules. It's either you cancel betting on this match for EVERYONE, or NO ONE - there's no in between.

You are crazy if you think FJ are sitting there and setting the odds for individual games while replying to your emails... There is no conspiracy here, shit happens. Nothing lost, nothing gained - move on.

Not true, I lost out on 0.1 BTC if I had cashed out in full.

So if they are not going to return to me 0.1 BTC, they need to return at least return 0.067 btc upon canceling my bet.

What part do you not understand?

I was playing by their own rules and doing everything THEY allowed me to do and gave me an option for, and now they are going to break their own rules and steal my money?

This is complete bs and you know it!

Even more so, they had NO rights to cancel this bet to begin with as I explained 100 times already. Gambling sites never cancel bets because of a simple change of odds, NEVER. It is against the rules because it would mean they'd have to cancel the match of the bet for everyone completely, and they haven't done that.

So they can't just cancel it for me and not for others who got in at different odds, what kind of BS is this?

If they made a mistake by posting the wrong odds (which they had 2-3 hours to completely change), then they need to make up for it and reward those who took advantage and picked the right player.

And not only are they not owning up to their mistake, but they're completely stealing my money too and counting the bet as if it was a loss.

WTF?!

How can you possibly side with them is beyond me. If this happened to you then I guarantee you would have flipped out after having been stolen thousands of dollars after picking the right player to win, just saying that sounds like such a complete joke!

Because it is like I previously told you - If you would have cashed it out in full they would have just voided that balance from your account and only let you withdraw your deposit. It's quite simple.

According to FJ's timeline it was live for less than 3 hours, until canceled. How this all turned out is absolutely acceptable.

/thread

If this was a technical error they wouldn't have been slowly dropping odds by 0.2 units for 2-3 hours before freezing the match and changing odds completely - they would have done it right away in the first 30mins before the 1st change of odds.

They have NO valid excuses for even canceling this bet in the first place, absolutely NONE. I don't care if it's their platform or made a misjudgment mistake, they have to play by their own rules and can't just do whatever they want. They need to honor their bets, respect their users, and operate in fair play at all times.

And no, if I had cashed out in full I 100% guarantee you I would have been able to withdraw 100% of it on the spot. Otherwise, what's the point of them offering this option to begin with? Btw, this happened AFTER the odds completely changed, not during the first 2-3 hours.

And "technically" I still didn't even get my full money back. I had 0.14 btc originally and partially cashed out for 0.1394, so either way they owe me money no matter how you look at this.

So they better give me my money back or else I will bash them forever as they are breaking all of their own rules, stealing my money and operating in a shady & sketchy way like complete scammers.

My previous comment also applies to your post as well.

It is NOT within their T&C and they are going against their own rules for their own benefit to avoid losing this bet.

Saying it was a "palpable" error is complete nonsense and up to interpretation. How do you even define and differentiate a palpable or technical error between an honest misjudgment?

Where does the line drawn between what's palpable/accidental and intentional?

To me De Jong being at 2.6 odds and then dropping to 1.3 is not that huge of a mistake or technical/palpable error at all.

His opponent (Altamirano) is the older player, more experienced in challengers, and has a higher career ranking than De Jong. I can give you a bunch of other reasons as to why it would make sense for him to be the favorite to win this match instead, and him being around 1.4 would make perfect sense.

It's not like a Roger Federer vs Fernando Verdasco grass-court match where Federer "accidentally" got listed at 5.0 odds of winning instead of say 1.2-1.3 like he was intended at initially. No one can say, support or back up Verdsaco ever being a huge favorite to beat Federer on a grass court in any way (assuming both players are healthy). So that would be a much better example of a "palpable" or technical error, but definitely not in this situation where De Jong being given 2.6 odds is not that unreasonable considering the circumstance and his opponent.

And like I said, what's 10x worse than them canceling the bet is them not returning my remaining stake.

What was the point of even offering me the option to cash out in full for 0.238 btc, or partially for whatever % I wanted if they knew they were going to cancel my bet either way right before the match and keep everything that was left to themselves?

How is that fair or ethical in any way, shape or form?

It's like giving your best friend an expensive gift for their birthday (like a brand new iPhone) with them graciously accepting it, and then a few days later FORCEFULLY taking it away from their hands & keeping it to yourself without their permission or consent (aka stealing) because you both got into some stupid argument. However, the MOMENT you gave your best friend that brand new iPhone, it is now 100% their asset, and taking it away from them in a forceful manner without their permission or consent does not only break all moral, ethical, and social rules - but all FORMAL rules too as it is 100% ILLEGAL and would be considered stealing, where you can be put in jail for that.

That's exactly what FortuneJack is doing here.

How can they possibly operate in such a shady & deceiving manner and literally steal people's money like this when they VOLUNTARILY gave them the option to partially cash out their bet and keep the remaining stake open is beyond me. Just complete madness.

They offered me this opportunity themselves which I gladly took, and then forcefully took it all away from me which goes against their own damn rules. They may have been given an order to cancel the bet from their odd provider (which I 100% disagree with but that's another discussion), but def NOT to take away people's stake and keep to for themselves. I've never seen anything like this before.

I get that they didn't intend to have those odds right away, but that's not a valid excuse and not my fault. They saw these "palpable" odds above 3.0 in the first 30mins and kept De Jong above 2.6 odds for the next 2-3 hours, when they could have easily canceled betting on this match right away if this really was such a terrible, obvious and huge mistake - but they didn't do that.

So if they allowed people to bet on this match in that 2-3 hour time span, then they have no right to go and cancel my bet afterwards after having so much time to do it beforehand. It's not like it was available for only a few mins and I quickly took advantage of it to exploit their "palpable" error at a ridiculous valuation.

It really doesn't make any sense and I 100% deserve to win this bet the normal way just like I always would anytime there is changes of odds for any match, this one being no different. And since they kept bets open for this match after the big change of odds without canceling it for other people or officially on their site - how is that fair that they cancel it only to me and to no one else? Just complete rubbish.

The only scenario where it would make sense for me to lose my remaining money on the bet is if the player I bet on would have lost the match, and that didn't happen.

Either way, upon canceling the bet the 1st thing they should have done at the time and must do right now is return the remaining stake of my bet for either 0.067 btc or ~0.1 btc. Then we can discuss whether the bet should have been canceled to begin with or not, and if not then it should count as a win and get the full 0.174 BTC.

Anything but that is a complete fraudulent behavior that is simply unacceptable and crosses all boundaries.

FortuneJack's official statement regarding the case can be accessed within our main thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=774929.msg56044693#msg56044693).

You never responded back to me again on your main thread with a follow-up message after I replied back to you.

I am still waiting for your response about the latest reply I made about what you wrote on your thread, because I am 100% against what you are doing and I have proven it on multiple occasions, even according to your own damn rules.

So whether on here on over there, I would like you to reply back to me and address the new points that I made.

This is completely unacceptable and you're not going to get away with stealing thousands of dollars from someone who WON a bet and is not only getting paid for winning, but also not being returned their stake at the bare minimum.

Ths is turning out to be a really complicated case. There are 2 sides to it, we can discuss about morality and about legality.

Morally - FJ is in the wrong from the start. If I own a webshop and offer laptops for 40 euros, if I receive payment for a laptop, I simply have to sell it for 40 euros. It was my mistake to begin with. Same as bookies, they have to be responsible for the odds they are offering. Morally speaking his bet should be paid out in full - all the bets that are accepted on all the betting platforms should.
The problem is that they all work the same. It's not just FortuneJack, it's every bookie in the business. Their TOC basically says that they can do what they want and you have to accept it if you want to bet there.
Morality does not equal responsibility though - it just adds to a company's status among its customers. I'm pretty sure FJ will lose more money in lost revenue from some members who won't be betting there anymore than they would have if they admitted their mistake and paid out the bet - but it's their choice and morality is something a company can decide on. You can either be better to your customers or drain them for more money.

Legally I'm nowhere near educated enough to provide anything meaningful to the discussion. I *feel* he would win in court, based on multiple cases like these (https://valuebettingblog.com/how-i-beat-888sport-in-court-and-got-paid/) I'm aware of. There are a lot of possible complications though, because every country has their own legislative when it comes to cases like these and what was decided in Spain would probably not be decided in USA or Germany or wherever. Companies like these often have gaming licences in obscure countries and it can be hard to sue. Legality does equal responsibility though - that's why more and more people seek justice in court - most of them win as well.


Personally, it all comes to this and for me this is simply not acceptable. It is a business, OP did lose part of his effective balance and we cannot make it go away because FJ is here a long time. I mean, we can and probably will because that's how the world works, but we really should not. We should hold people and businesses accountable for their actions and this situation is clear.
As a community and society we should strive to make a better experience for everyone and we should expect the industry's leaders (such as FJ) to keep high standards of transparency, fairness and even morality. What we should take as granted is the legality, so I'll just finish with the following:

FJ can (and did) decide to void his ticket according to their TOC. I do not agree with it at all, I think it is not appropriate behavior and I think it is borderline a criminal act. It is also an industry standard we have agreed to accept and we are turning a blind eye while it's not concerning us. We should not be accepting it and should be fighting it with all legal means available because it is the right thing to do. Companies with extreme revenues and huge profits should be held accountable for their mistakes. They should not be able to have a magic wand that erases it.

What FJ should not be able to do in any case whatsoever is to keep his stake for themselves. That is a criminal act for sure and it can be branded as theft, pure and simple. If there is a section in FJ's TOC that states that they can keep the stake for themselves, I'd like to see it in writing and I'm asking them to provide it.

I'd also like OP to provide proof for the following:
@EpicChamp I merited your post so you can upload pictures now. Just wait until your status switches from Newbie to Jr. Member.


If what he's saying here can be proved, it means the following:
- FJ initially did the right thing, accepting cashout with them losing money
- when he cashed out 50%, they accepted his 50% to remain as a valid bet

At that point, we must observe it as 2 separate bets:
- bet A (50% of the amount) was cashed out early for profit
- bet B (50% of the amount) is a separate bet - that can be voided according to TOC but must be refunded if voided, no matter what happened earlier with bet A.

My opinion is that, as a bare minimum, the stake must be returned to the player. If he can prove what he's saying, though.

This has been going on for a while now. The truth has long been brought out by Fortunejack, right? It seems to me that facts are fairly easy to get to the table based on the general terms and conditions.
I get the idea that we now keep turning in a vice circle.

The only proof I can show you to prove that I had ~50% of the initial bet remaining at 0.0672 BTC @ 2.6 odds is a screenshot of my bet. I am trying to upload it but I'm not sure how to add any URL as it's just a screenshot.

Beyond that, I did not take screenshots at the time of these 3 options, because how was I supposed to know this mess was going to happen and that they were not going to honor my winning amount & cancel the bet right before the match was about to start? That was the last thing on my mind and I never expected this to happen, esp from such a "reputable" bookie like FortuneJack that's been around for such a long time.

But I 100% guarantee you that this was the case.

In fact, funny enough I just looked back and came across the paper that I used at the time to help me make a decision on what I should do in this case. And according to my paper at the time, the amount I could have earned in full may have been even greater than 0.238 BTC, but rather 0.26873 BTC instead - an extra 0.0373 BTC had I cashed out in full.

If I can figure out how to upload an image on here, I can show you a photo of this paper which also shows exactly that if I cash out for ~140 mBTC (it was actually below that at 139. something, but I rounded it up), I would earn 174.36 mBTC if I win the bet. If you do the math, this is the exact equivalent to a stake of 0.067 BTC at 2.6 odds.

The other thing I was thinking of doing was cashing out 100 mBTC instead (40 mBTC less than what I ended up choosing), and in return would have in fact kept 168.73 mBTC open (in total, or 64.896 mBTC @ 2.6 odds - instead of 67.2 mBTC @ 2.6 odds) for a chance to win 228.54 mBTC instead. I can assure you I would not be coming up with these random numbers out of the blue, and that this is the exact option I was voluntarily given by FJ the evening before the match, which is 100% in accordance with their own rules since they're the ones who gave me this option.

This is literally documented in my notes and it matches everything perfectly with what actually happened and how much I was supposed to make if FJ hadn't canceled my bet right before the match was about to start.

---

No, beyond just morally & ethically - even based on the general terms & conditions they should have never canceled this bet to begin with, much like no other betting site canceled it for their users either.

They basically just cancelled it for me & no one else, and kept this match open for betting before and even during the match. According to any gmabling TOC, that is against the rules and not allowed.

And read above exactly why this was not a technical error and not even a massive drop of odds either. Change of odds happen all the time in tennis and other sports, and bets never get canceled because of that alone.

If they have any kind of respect to their users and even a slight sense of goodwill, they will not only return my stake back (which is an absolute must) - but also count my bet as a regular win just like they should have done 2 months ago and much like every other gambling site did as well at the time for anyone who bet on De Jong to win.



[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Hello @cryptofrka, thanks for showing your interest in the on-going case.


Can you clarify bit more what you mean by saying us keeping the stake for ourselves?

The stake he left onto the bet was annulled, not kept in any way on our side.

As the actual cost of the bet (the first stake placed onto the position) was given back to the customer, there's no another $ amount stored within the system - everything else is a cost on our end. So I can say that none of the user's funds have been confiscated or legally obtained by FJ.


-
Tornike

Oh really, is that so Tornlike? The remaining stake wasn't kept on your side?

Then where exactly did it go, just magically disappeared out of thin air after you randomly canceled my bet for no apparent reason?

Let me remind you again that you voluntarily gave me the option to either cash out in full the day before for 0.2687 BTC or do a partial cashout for any amount or % I wanted. And I decided to cash out for 50% and keep the other 50% open. This is all in accordance to your own rules and is 100% fair.

This was your decision to allow me to do this, I did not cheat your system or hack your site/this bet in any way to do my 50% partial cashout, and in the end I had 0.0672 BTC left at 2.6 odds to win 0.1747 BTC. Then right before the match was about to start - you decided to bend the rules in your favor, cancel my bet super late for no valid reason, and then had the audacity to also keep my remaining stake to yourself as well.

Do you really think this is fair or ethical in any way?

I mean why did you offer me this option in the first place then? What was the point of giving me the choice of doing a partial cashout if I was going to lose my full remaining stake whether my player wins, loses OR the bet gets canceled for whatever reason?

In order words, no matter what would end up happening afterward (in this match or bet), I would end up losing my entire stake of 0.0672 BTC with you keeping it all to yourself - why is that? Do you really think this is right to do or makes any sense?

Because in that case, I would have simply cashed out everything in full for 0.2687 BTC and been done with it; and avoided any risk of losing my BTC from not only a scenario of my player losing, but also in the case of you canceling this bet.

Hey there, thanks for taking an interest.
I don't really want to be the devil's advocate just yet, EpicChamp still needs to provide some proof for what he's saying.
Since you're not actually opposing it however, I will start from the position that the following is true:


Can you confirm or deny that?

If that is true however, FJ offered him to cash out. If he cashed out in full, you would let him withdraw it all, agreed? Because that is what you offered him.
He did not cash out all, but a portion - which was also offered from your side - if what he's saying is true. At that point, what he already withdrew becomes irrelevant because he used your offer to cover his investment. He withdrew the deposited amount and kept the rest on your site, using it as 'another' bet, although still a part of the same one, only in a lower percentage.
Let's ignore the fact that you cancelled the bet, which I'm sure you can according to TOC, but the fact is that the bet he made with the remainder of his initial bet is his money - not FJ's.

Actual cost of the bet was returned to him only because he chose it when he chose the % of the bet he wanted to cash out earlier. He could have chosen 20% or 80% as well - then these numbers would not match.
It is normal that it looks as a cost from your side in your system because his winnings are bigger than his initial deposit - because you allowed him cashout of a part of his bet for profit.

I'll use placeholder values here:

Player invests 10 mbtc on odds 2.50, his potential winnings are 25 mbtc. The bookie realizes they made a mistake with the odds and offer the package that EpicChamp says he received, with instant casout of 20mbtc as a possibility.
Player still has 10mbtc value. He can choose to have 10 while keeping the bet open. If he chooses that, in this case when the bet was cancelled later, he would get his initial stake of 10mbtc back.
Player can also choose to instantly take the offer of cashout and take 20 mbtc. Then, you'd have cost in your system as well - because he withdrew more than he deposited - because he fairly cashed out and won the ticket with lower odds.
Player chose option 3 however, and used 5mbtc of his money to receive 10mbtc from FJ. He withdrew that. 5 remaining mbtc were kept as a bet, that part of his initial 10mbtc is still his stake and when the bet was voided, his stake should be returned.
In this case player actually has 15 mbtc on a 10 mbtc deposit, because the difference of 5 mbtc comes from partially cashing out before the bet was voided altogether.

For all this to mean anything though, he has to prove receiving the offer mentioned a few times already.

I doubt that would ever happen, due to the fashion that he gained the balance it would probably be handled similarly to how a bug in a slot game or similar would.

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Let me once again clarify what would be happening in case you choosing the option of cashing out in full.

Either way, the withdrawal would not be accepted as our official odds provider, betradar, strictly directed us to cancel the winning amounts and remain the account with the initial stake you had before placing the bet. You've lost nothing, not to say you intentionally using the technical error of the provider to maximize the possible winnings - going for the partial cashout was the only way for you to go.

-
All good - we're here to discuss and make the right decision.

As stated above, the cashout system offered him the option (it made the mistake as there was no signal from the betradar of the mistakenly provided odds - once we received the notification, we immediately took the action), as there's no way for us to manually check every single bet ongoing onto the website.

No matter what the user would choose, we would still require him to wait for the confirmation phrase and withdrawal would not go through.

We have to mention the fact that EpicChamp was not the only user placing the bet.

To be true, another player of FortuneJack had the stake placed onto the same match, but indeed it was made after correcting the odds.

Of course, we didn't cancel his bet, nor nulled the balance. So the OP stating the fact that we deliberately took the action against him is nonsense. All players are treated the same way as there's no purpose for us to come out against a certain personality.

Why do you keep on pointing fingers and blaming other people/organizations for YOUR mistake? It is your site and you are 100% responsible for placing these odds and making them official to everyone on your site to bet on. Whether you come up with the odds yourself or someone else provides them to you, I can care less as the user. To me you're both the same company and since this your site & not theirs, you are 100% responsible for the odds you decide to post & provide to your users. Stop blaming other people for giving you the "wrong" odds, and start taking responsibility for your own actions & decisions.

And while this betrader company may have given you the wrong odds initially, it was you who kept slowly dropping these odds by 0.2 units every 30 minutes in the first 2-3 hours when this line went up. This proves that this was not a "technical" error or an "accident" like you claim that it was - it was 100% intentional. Because if this was such a clear/obvious "technical" error or accident - you would have noticed it, frozen, and changed the odds right away - not 2-3 hours later.

As I said many times, I can give you 10+ reasons why his opponent could have been the favorite to win this match. To me, this was a very even match without any clear favorites, with both players having equal chances of winning, so I chose to bet on De Jong because he was posted with better odds. This happens all the time and is not the first or last time something like this occurs where a user might think the match is even, but for some reason 1 player is given better odds than the other, so he chooses to bet on the one with better odds.

And then it was you, not them, who decided to wrongfully cancel my bet 1-2 hours before the match was about to start when not a single other bookie canceled it for their users - and I know this for a fact because I have a friend who also bet on De Jong at 2.8-3.0 odds and he won the bet in full without any problems or cancelations in advance.

They might "suggest" you to do it because they made some mistake, but at the end of the day it is 100% your decision to make - not theirs. And you cannot cancel a bet for 1 person and not for others for the same match just because someone has slightly different odds.

HA! This proves my point!

So you decide to cancel this bet only for me and not to him because I had different odds? And you think this is ok or allowed to do?

Do you realize how many times odds change before a match or game is about to start, and different people can have completely different odds going in? And in these situations bets are never canceled for ANYONE?

For example, let's take a Djokovic vs Zverev match. Djokovic is first posted at 1.4 to win and Zverev is 2.6. Then 2 hours later Djokovic drops to 1.25 and Zverev goes up to 3.4. And few hours later Djokovic drops to 1.15 and Zverev goes up to 5.0.

Do you think it's fair for those people who bet on Zverev initially at 2.6, when now there are people who got him at 5.0 a few hours later? No, it may not be fair - but as a bookie, you're not going to cancel this bet for them or anyone because of that (or vice versa for those who bet on Djokovic at different times).

The SAME thing applies to my situation.

My point is odds always change and everyone gets in different odds, but you cannot just cancel the bet for 1 person with X odds and NOT cancel it for another person with Y odds. Only if there is an actual problem with the match itself or someone gets injured and it's not played out in full.

-
Kindly asking you not to mislead the community once again by stating that we cancelled the bet intentionally.

Once again attaching the screenshot provided by a partner company of ours, that showcases the mistakenly shown odds at specific timeframes.

https://i.ibb.co/BZY2d0r/2.png

You've been continually shilling the ideas that you think is right without providing any proofs/data, whatsoever. To make the right decision, the community needs to see the process going on both of the ends. We would be more than welcome if your statement was fully backed by some data and analysis, all the comments made by you is written emotionally without any context and only points out to the pure scam.

FortuneJack, as the crypto-driven and supported casino/sportsbook, has never had the intention of stealing player's funds, in case making the mistake, we would be taking the responsibility and givings credits back to you, but it's not the case as for now.

Wait a second - so are you saying that you did NOT keep slowly dropping the odds from 3.0+ every ~30mins by 0.2 units for 2-3 hours until you reached & stopped at 2.6 before you completely changed the odds?

Is that what you're trying to say?

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Odds to change naturally from time to time.

But the provider dropping the mistakenly placed odds from an unrealistic rate to the real one is different from what you're saying.

We will be patiently waiting to receive more feedback from the community - as it's the case we pay attention to and would love to be treated rightfully.

It was NOT an unrealistic rate at all.

Once again, for the 100th time, I can give you 10+ different reasons why it would make perfect sense for his opponent to be the 1.4-1.5 favorite to win this match. For example, he's 5 years older, more experienced at challengers, and has a higher career ranking than De Jong.

There are many factors that can easily lead to him being the favorite to win this match, and at the time it did not seem like a mistake at all - especially when you kept slowly changing the odds over a 2-3 hour time period without any major changes.

To me this was a very even match and was anybody's game to win, and the 2nd set proved to be very competitive too. Had Altmirano held his serve from 4-5 down, this could have been 5-5 and he would have had a good chance to win the 2nd set and play a 3rd where anything could have happened.

Neither De Jong nor his opponent was a superior player to win, and neither should have been given 1.3 odds of winning in my opinion. I do not understand or agree with why you chose to do that & post either of them at these odds, but it's not up to me to decide.

But one thing I definitely do not agree with is you claiming it was a "technical" error or an accident when it clearly wasn't, because everything was done intentionally. Therefore, the bet should have never been canceled to begin with, and I deserve to win my bet in full (and whether I cashed anything out the day before or not doesn't matter).

Anyways, I'd love to see what other people in the community have to say also.

P.S. In this case anytime odds change against your favor, you might as well just always get your odd provider to claim it to be a "mistake" as an excuse, and then proceed to cancel the affected bet only to people with better odds to minimize your risk/potential loss. Is that something you always do when a player's odd change? If not, then why did you do this against me? How is that possibly fair or right in any way? It is completely unacceptable and goes against fair play.  

Also, if your odd provider betrader made what they claim to be a "mistake", then that's 100% on them & their problem, as well as your responsibility for accepting these odds and making them official for 2-3 hours on your site, and then giving me the option to do a full or partial cashout for any % I wanted. This is something you should privately discuss or argue about with them, and if you don't want to pay the winnings out of your pocket, then they should do it out of their pocket because according to you, it was mostly their fault.

(Although I still don't understand why these would be the wrong odds or a mistake, because I believe that there was no clear favorite to win that match, and I can give you many reasons why it would make sense for De Jong's opponent to be the favorite initially at 1.4-1.5 odds; but once again, it's not up to me to decide)

My point is that this has nothing to do with me and is not my fault as the user/bettor, and I should not be penalized for it and lose out on thousands of dollars after choosing the right player to win because of their mistake, not mine.

Much like if I personally made a betting mistake of putting the wrong amount or choosing the wrong odds or decided to change my mind later, it would be too late - and if I wanted to cash out it would be for 30-50% less than what I put which normally wouldn't make any sense & I would be basically forced to accept my mistake as it is. That is 100% fair and I'm not going to be blaming anyone else but me for putting myself in this kind of unfavorable position. I always own up to my mistakes & take full responsibility, and I would like you to do the same.

So I kindly ask you to respect fair play as well and reward my bet as a regular win, much like all other betting sites did for their users on that day for the same match for everyone who bet on De Jong to win (even at 2.6+ odds, before he dropped).

P.S. It says in your image that the email was received on December 31st. Why is that when the match took place in November?

I did not think of this as even a remote possibility until FJ confirmed it themselves. That actually means they made 2 consecutive technical mistakes. First one was to accept the bet with wrong odds, the next one was to offer the customer options that were not options after all (we still do not have a screenshot that confirms it though).
In that case it's not simply a math problem/issue anymore (which I assumed it was) and we enter the domain of the TOC. I kinda feel that FJ has it covered there.


As a customer, I'd be pissed at how you handled this if it happened to me (not you personally but FJ in general). I agree with EpicChamp that even if the provider was responsible for the wrong odds, you as a site should take responsibility as well. But I won't dwell on that, that's covered in TOC and I'm sure you are free to cancel bets in the way that you did.

I think all of this would not be as much of a problem if you just cancelled the bet instead of offering these 3 options in the first place. He'd probably accept it and move on because it's not the first time it happened. But we're talking about a decent amount of money, and in this case FJ really did a rollercoaster ride on the guy's emotions.
First he thought he made a good bet. Then it was voided partially and he thought OK, I already have some money because I withdrew my deposit and have some extra on the bet. Then the bet was cancelled although he picked the right outcome. Then he thought well, at least I still get my stake back. Ultimately, after all your technical difficulties and bad communication, the player was left with only his initial deposit.

I understand you are a big business that has a million users and tens of millions of bets. But when something like this happens, when you make continuous mistakes at the expense of the same user, even if you are right according to the TOC and even if it was all just a mistake, maybe some option can be found because like this it really leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Imagine the guy's feelings after losing bit by bit by bit of his winnings, even if they weren't actually winnings according to the TOC. He thought they were and that's important as well.

He was determined to play on that guy, if you voided it earlier he'd probably bet on it elsewhere. He did think he has a bet on FJ, therefore he did not bet somewhere else, therefore he lost even more money because of your miscommunication.

_______________________________________________________________

Since this no longer becomes the discussion about stealing of funds and turns into 'what can we do as a bookie/what is the right thing to do', I'm withdrawing from the discussion because I already said my moral standpoint on situations like these in general. Since I'm sure you can wrap this all and say it's an error, I'm not sure what other options the player has other than possibly seeking justice in court. That would be really difficult though so I'd advise him not to - he'll probably just be wasting time and energy.

Since you asked for community's feedback - I'd rather see that FJ takes a part of the blame for this. It really is your fault, all of it, even if you can justify it with TOC it doesn't make it right. That's something that only you can decide though but I hope to see a fairer outcome than simply saying 'no harm done, let's move on'. Maybe try to make some kind of a deal with the player, so he actually gets something in return for this emotional whirlwind.

My 2 cents anyway, cheers to everybody.

Seems to me that this is a similar case and you could potentially lawyer up. Thinking about this, Ive had mix response while trying to find bets that are undervalued. 1xbet paid me for all bets but one that were massively undervalued while Bet365 paid once but voided the bet the other few times. Cloudbet voided my bet in a similar fashion long ago. I didn't think much of it back then since I thought it was well within their rights to void the bet that were on the book due to either technical error or their incompetence. I didn't make any issue of it but I should have.   :-\

In the end, I think it will come down to where FortuneJack are licensed and how will the law in that country interpret the situation.

Good Luck :)

Also, another thing I'd like to point out is that if you look more closely into this, the odds for this match were not completely out of line either - anything under 3.0 is a reasonable amount (let alone 2.6), nor is it a huge mistake or a clear/technical error - especially for a challenger match where there was no clear favorite, with both players being close in rankings + had an equal chance of winning. Anything between the range of 1.3-3.0 (or 1.4/1.5-2.6) means the match is expected to be competitive, and the player who is expected to win is not a significant favorite and there could very well be an upset.

However, if De Jong was placed & given at 5.0+ odds (2x higher), then maybe I would understand why you would consider this more of a "mistake" or technical error (since it is hard to justify), and wanted to cancel it in advance (although even then it shouldn't happen because it is not the bettor's fault). But in my case, the odds were only 2.6 which I believe was very reasonable, fair and within the competitive range where it's hard to predict a clear winner or outcome.

So to cancel a bet in advance because 1 player was given only 2.6 odds in a competitive match without any clear favorites, and claim it as a technical error is simply not true and doesn't make any sense.

-
We would be more than welcome to somehow negotiate onto the bonus of some sort of to support the idea of us influencing his emotional whirlwind.

It's up to user to decide if he wants to talk about it.

As him talking about us crediting the bet as a win doesn't make sense and goes against the decision we made.

Not going too much into details anymore as it doesn't move a needle - let's get this case closed so both of ends can feel free and satisfied.

The only thing that makes sense to do in this case is to credit my bet as a win, and at the bare minimum return my 0.0672 BTC stake since my bet was canceled. At this point, I am not planning on making any more bets on your site unless you return my stake or count my bet as a win; therefore, I am not interested in any bonuses.

You can reverse & change your decision anytime, and I explained to you many times on this thread why it makes perfect sense to count my bet as a win and why I deserve to win this bet fair & square.

You have still not provided me with a valid & clear explanation for canceling my bet and then keeping the stake to yourself. And please don't tell me it was because of a technical mistake because that is not true, a drop from 2.6 to 1.7 is not that significant to be considered a technical error, and especially not when it was intentionally kept live on your website for 2-3 hours without any major changes.

Your decision is completely disrespectful, unfair and wrong on so many levels; and I cannot believe that you would cheat, bend the rules, and take away a lot of money from your users while thinking that this is ok or completely normal to do.

If you go through all the comments on this + other threads, almost everyone in this community also agrees with me that you should not have canceled this bet, and that I fully deserve to win the bet in full (or be returned my stake at the very least).

The general consensus amongst people is that what you did is unfair and ethically & morally wrong, and that if you have any respect towards your consumers and a sense of goodwill, then you should take full responsibility for any "mistake" that was made, and count my bet as a win.

This is also what every other gambling site did in this match for their users (and in every similar situation as this in general), and I would greatly appreciate it if you do the same to prove your reputation and gain trust from me and everyone else. I am asking you very politely and would be very grateful for your cooperation on this.

This is a large amount in the thousands which is very important to me & makes a big difference in my life right now (esp with COVID and everything that's going on), whereas for you it's probably just a fraction of how much you make each day. I really don't understand why you're refusing to reward me for winning this bet, and I look forward to seeing you do the right thing and prove to me and others your goodwill.

We've been actively listening to every single member of the bitcointalk community since the opening of the thread. Unfortunately, we could barely find one person to be supporting your idea by us counting the remaining bet with the casino's funds as a win (the amount stayed as a bet does not belong to the player as it's entirely coming from the point of mistakenly provided odd).

As I've mentioned earlier, FJ would be more than welcome to negotiate on any type of bonus or an offer as a goodwill from our end to respectfully treat the customer. Not to mention, still many of the legendary and notable members haven't yet stated their feedback onto the ongoing case, as their words of wisdom is quite frequently crucial for us to label the case as a closed.

From this point, we're not going into the polemics as it doesn't make any sense. While you emphasizing on purely spamming the thread with not so quite important comments (most of them shilling out personal points of views instead of posting proofs).

It's quite crucial for us to take care of every player gambling at FortuneJack. As everybody knows, the team community of FJ has always been supporting the gambler's state of view instead of blindly rooting for the company's interests. Sadly, none of the arguments nor proofs proves your point and you as a person insisting onto the emotional side of expressing the opinions makes the entire audience not quite interested in replying here. Would be awesome if you could somehow make it kind of official and briefly assisted by data.

We've to as well mention the fact that you've been disrespectfully treating all the members of the bitcointalk community only for the reason of them having a different point of view. Please be civil-spoken to everyone as it's important to clearly move this convo to the end.

We're stepping out from this moment and are not going to go into details until the communication gets its standard look.


-
Team FJ

What kind of "proof" exactly do you want me to provide to support my arguments?

So far you have not denied anything about what I said or claimed, or that my information/evidence was incorrect - so are you saying now that the facts that I wrote in my longer posts is false and didn't happen?

Also, I just went back and analyzed what everyone had to say so far:

1. nutildah (Legendary Member) said: "Honoring the "incorrect" odds would be the noble thing for FortuneJack to do."

2. Royse777 (Legendary Member) said: "I don't like this practice of they can do whatever they want. It's like I make up some reasons or even do not give any reason because there are no reason at all. Because I have the terms and conditions, I can have anyone's money anytime. No, I can not. When you cancel a bet you return the stake and keep the winning (if it was won).

So technically in my opinion, considering the mistake that happened from your provider, considering the communication time, considering the partial cashing out before the email sent, considering the on-going bet after the email sent - you owe the OP 0.067 BTC which was his stake by that time after you informed him. This is what I personally think will be a fair ending."

3. LEVSKI7 (Jr. Member) said: "Brutal deception of fortunejack. They have no right to cancel a bet except in case of a technical error and there is a drop of the odds all the time and people play for cashout in beta and other sites." - and 2.6 to 1.7 drop is def not a technical error (amongst other reasons). Odds start at 3.00 on bwin betathome, ie on other odds providers. and then gradually falls. There is no reason to cancel the bet. everything else is a scam"

He then shared a VERY similar case that was won in a legal battle against another bookie. This is the link, feel free to read the whole case: https://valuebettingblog.com/how-i-beat-888sport-in-court-and-got-paid/

4. BlackFor3st (Hero Member) said: "I think Fortunejack does have all the rights to cancel a bet here" But he isn't 100% sure, and he never mentioned that he also "thinks" that it's ok or right for you to keep the remaining stake as well upon the bet cancelation.

5. Beparanf (Hero Member) said: "This is surely a big mess.  They already admit there fault by giving OP the option for cash out with profit a night before the game. They are the one who gave a complimentary option just to continue the game knowing that there's an error ongoing in the odds. I hope FJ will reconsider your case."

6. Xavofat (Hero Member) said: "Your explanation is clear and strong enough. If the email you quoted here is true then I really don't understand how odd's 1.7 is happened! The validity of that's email is not fair enough by OddsPortal's review. (I) hope you will get back your money"

7. spyrosc200 said: "You should chase the full amount of your bet. Either you deserve paying in full or nothing. Imo this story has 2 thinks to examine:

1) Odds are dropping everyday. This is a fact.

Bookies have absolute no reason to void a bet cause odds drop from 2.30 to 1.70, from 2.30 to 1.30 etc. Check the link below for daily odds drop. Simply there are dozens of such cases every day.

https://www.oddsportal.com/dropping-odds/

None of the games listed above is going to be voided from any fair bookmaker.

2) The big question in your case imo is:

The odds set from Fortjunejack was an obvious error?

If odds were obvious error, then imo they can void this bet. Imagine Bet365 opened Barcelona to beat Leganes at odds 10/1 when whole world had odds at 1/2. Will they honor bets on Barcelona at 10/1? No way.

If Fortunejack odds though were in line with all other books at the time you took the bet, then things are getting complicated. How Forjunejack can claim that they had wrong odds when the whole bookies worldwide had same odds as Forjunejack?

To summarize: - FJ can void this bet only if odds were obvious palp. (which simply isn't true when all other bookies had the same thing happen initially, it wasn't just a mistake on your end)
                      - If they wanted not to take any risk for this game, they should have forced him to fully cashed out his bet prior the game start but no way voiding his bet. Given
                         that odds moved in OP's favor, he would have a descent profit as well which is normal since he spotted good value at 2.60

8. DarkStar_ (Legendary Member) said: "They might have the right to do it, but that doesn't make them not shady if they unjustifiably canceled a bet. There's a reason sportsbooks don't cancel all bets that have had line movement against them.

I also don't know where they got the 1.7 from that they mentioned in the email; OddsPortal seems to agree with your claim."

9. roosbit said: "IMO FJs mistake should not be passed onto its players,they should take the hit and save face...just my 2cents!"

10. scammed-by-nitro asked: "I wonder if other players which bet the other site of the game, betting on 1,4 or whatever odds which then went up to around 3 also got their bets cancelled? Thats the biggest question for me here."

11. cryptofrka (Hero Member) said: "If the bet was accepted, it should be honored + paid out in full - according to the odds that were available at that moment.

Morally - FJ is 100% wrong from the start. As bookies, they have to be responsible for the odds they are offering. His bet should be paid out in full - all the bets that are accepted on all the betting platforms should. For me this is simply not acceptable. It is a business, OP did lose part of his effective balance.

As a community we should expect the industry's leaders (such as FJ) to keep high standards of transparency, fairness and even morality. I do not agree with it at all, I think it is not appropriate behavior and I think it is borderline a criminal act. It is also an industry standard and [we] should be fighting it with all legal means available because it is the right thing to do. Companies with extreme revenues and huge profits should be held accountable for their mistakes. They should not be able to have a magic wand that erases it.

What FJ should not be able to do in any case whatsoever is to keep his stake for themselves. That is a criminal act for sure and it can be branded as theft, pure and simple.

If what [OP} is saying [is true], it means the following:
- FJ initially did the right thing, accepting cashout with them losing money
- when he cashed out 50%, they accepted his 50% to remain as a valid bet

At that point, we must observe it as 2 separate bets:
- bet A (50% of the amount) was cashed out early for profit
- bet B (50% of the amount) is a separate bet - that can be voided according to TOC but must be refunded if voided, no matter what happened earlier with bet A.

As a bare minimum, the stake must be returned to the player."

Also, he mentioned: "[FortuneJack} made 2 consecutive technical mistakes. First one was to accept the bet with wrong odds, the next one was to offer the customer options that were not options after all. I agree with EpicChamp that even if the provider was responsible for the wrong odds, you as a site should take responsibility as well."

12. slaman29 (Sr. Member) said: "Never had a bet cancelled from odds changes"

13. shield132 (Hero Member) said: "If bet was made hours earlier before the match and if the bet was canceled immediately, then yeah, seems there is nothing wrong with FJ but otherwise I wouldn't like that. (it WASN'T canceled immediately, it was canceled 12-13hours after I placed the bet)

14. Haunebu (Hero Member) said: "I agree that it is unethical and FJ have faced several issues like this in recent times"

15. serjent05 (Legendary Member) said: "EpicChamp indeed has some BTC to refund on that canceled bet, I don't know why FJ can't see this stuff. If the record of FJ tallies EpicChamp's story, he then will have no problem claiming those BTC for refunds."

He also confirmed this by saying that "If what you are saying is true then I agree that you deserve to claim your remaining stake"

16. RokokGudangGaram (Full Member) said: "This is not a proper cancellation especially if your bet has been accepted already, they can cancel the game if in case you haven't bet yet or the game hasn't started yet. It is not a proper way to handle your winnings especially if you successfully make your bet."

17. Even Hhampuz (Legendary Member) who is one of the only people who for the most part seems to agree with you, said this: "It's different when they cancel the bet quickly and long before the game is ever played. " - which did not happen because it was NOT canceled quickly and long before the match started. It was super late and at the time I wasn't even aware of it, that's how late it was.

**Look at ALL THESE COMMENTS FortuneJack**

15-17 Community Members all agree with me on several things:

1. What you did is morally & ethically wrong.
2. The bet should not have been canceled for many reasons they all listed themselves (on top of my own in my longer posts). Therefore, I deserve to win my bet in full if this bet wasn't canceled because I chose the right player to win.
3. Even if you are "officially" allowed to cancel this bet according to your TOC - you need to return my 0.0672 BTC stake back.

I went through each person who replied 1 by 1 and put down what all of them had to say about this situation. It is a VAST majority of people who agree with me and are against your deceiving behavior & way of running your site.

Everyone agrees that you should honor this bet, take full responsibility, and reward my winning amount (or at the very least return my stake back).

And once again, let me know what kind of "proof" do you want me to share or see here exactly.

Also, are you saying that anything about what I said is wrong or incorrect? if so - what exactly did I say (as a fact/evidence) about what happened is wrong or incorrect that you disagree with?

Don't quote me out of context please. The email from SteadyLogic with the timeframes seems pretty convincing that it was a legitimate odds error. 2.6 to 1.3 in one shot is a pretty reasonable palp, unless you have proof that there was some external event that caused the odds drop (for example, news that Altamirano might be injured/not feeling well).

(disclaimer: I haven't had a very detailed look into this)

You took my words out of context. What I said was this:


You ignored the other 2/3 of the point that I was making, which is they don't have to pay out your bet so they're not going to and it's best to move on. I'm not trying to defend FJ, just letting you know they probably won't change their minds. If I were you I just wouldn't play there anymore.

According to their email, they claimed that they canceled the bet because odds dropped from 2.6 to 1.7 - that is not that uncommon and far from a reasonable "palp", esp when all other bookies had very similar swings of odds for this match on that day. It wasn't just FortuneJack, yet all of them counted the bet as a win for those who bet on De Jong regardless of what his odds were when they placed the bet.

Yes, but we had both agreed that odds never hit 1.7 and that the email was inaccurate.

The other 2/3 points don't really matter as much, my point is that TOC aside - you said that you believe that they should be honor this bet because it is the right thing to do. Therefore, it should be considered a win for me (just like it would have been a loss had the player I bet on would have lost).

Do you still agree with that?

I am not the one to say or decide if this is right or wrong - I am simply going based on facts & the evidence/reasoning I was given by them.

The email was sent to me 1-2 hours before the start of the match, so maybe at that point the odds changed again and he became 1.7. I don't know and it doesn't matter why they claim it was 1.7; my point is that they officially used this as their reason for canceling my bet (aka change of odds), and now are trying to claim that it was a palpable error instead, which it clearly wasn't for many reasons with this being 1 of them.

According to you, it was voided prior to the game starting so there was never a chance that it was a loss.


To quote yourself: (bold emphasis mine)

Why the switch from 100% certainty to uncertainty?

I was stating my opinion on what I think about the reasoning of the email they wrote to me.

I am still confused why they think he was given at 1.7 at any point, but I was not checking these odds every 5mins to know exactly where was at every given time/minute.

There is always a small chance that much like he randomly dropped from 2.6 to 1.3 initially, that he also shot up from 1.3 to 1.7 in an instant too - and maybe that happened right as they wrote this email 2 hours before the match, I wouldn't know (esp since I was sleeping during this time). It's simply impossible for me to know the exact odds of the player I bet on between the time I partially cashed out and when the match was about to start.

Either way, even if it was below 1.7 - that's beyond the point. Nowhere in the email did they claim they canceled the bet due to a "technical" or "palpable" error, and their only reasoning for canceling this bet was a change of odds - yet now they claim something different? Interesting isn't it?

My point is - if they truly believed & knew it was such an obvious palpable error or "accident", then that should have been the first thing they should have written to me in the email & claimed it exactly as such, which they haven't. This tells me it was not a palpable error, and at this point I do not believe them claiming that it was, and I highly question any other reason they may provide because they did not mention anything other than a reasonable change of odds (2.6 to 1.7) in their email. And this is a fact.

It is also very easy to come up with & find other excuses after the fact - however, the reason must be stated at the time of, not a day, a week, or few weeks/months later. And at the time their only reasoning for canceling my bet was a drop of odds from 2.6 to 1.7.

(And if I ever accidentally put up odds at 3.5 when I intended to do it as 1.35 as an example, this is exactly what I would have written:

"Hello EpicChamp, we are really sorry to inform you but there was a technical error in our system where player X was accidentally displayed at 3.5 when he was intended to be at 1.35, therefore we decided to cancel your bet AND return your stake back - hope you understand" or something along those lines.

Yet they did not write anything similar to this, did not return my stake back, and I really don't wanna hear their palpable error excuse anymore. Even if it was, I gave countless reasons on here why it still wouldn't make sense for them to cancel my bet because of that, and it is not my fault or responsibility - therefore, my bet should be rewarded as a win and I should not be losing thousands of dollars because of their mistake)

02:34:26 24/11/2020 - markets open with the odds of 3,0 - 1,34 (technically wrong odds).

05:18:35 24/11/2020 - betradar identifies the issue and closes the markets till the morning.

09:37:20 24/11/2020 - market reopens with the correct odds of 1,16 - 4,6.

EpicChamp used the cashout option after an hour of the opening markets - 24/11/20 10:37:23

So basically betradar cancelled and annulled all the bets within the time frame from 02:34:26 24/11/2020 all over to 5:18:35 24/11/2020.

The pattern is shown above clearly states that it wasn't natural odd drop.

It was a correction happening in few hours after labelling it as an error.

By looking at the above-mentioned time frames, we can see that the user was intentionally trying to trick the cashout option system, as it was only used after the correction. In case him using it before the correction, the system would send an obvious site error as a message.

OP knew that there was a wrong odd on FJ.

Placed the bet on time.

Waited for the correction till making the partial cashout to be at the safe side. He 100% knew that we would be cancelling it so took the initial deposit (first stake) back to his funds. No win, no lose, I guess.

By following the pattern, we can see him purposely utilizing the bug as an advantage against other members, who were betting ONLY after the correction of the odds.

It's crucial for us as well to have the fair play environment for everyone gambling here at FJ.

Dang, you almost had it right FortuneJack!

Except noooooooo, I did NOT perform my cashout after 1 hour of opening the market  at "10:37:23" - if I understand your timezone correctly.

I performed my partial cashout right around that 8:18 to 9ish timeframe, about 6-7 hours after the lines first went live (at ~3.0 odds) and about 1-2 hours after I initially placed my bet. I don't know what timezone you're using, but for me I can only speak in EST.

Odds went live around 6:30pm EST and he was posted around 3.0 odds universally across all betting sites.

1 hour later around 7:30pm EST he was around 2.8 odds on FJ.

30 mins after that around 8:00pm EST he was at 2.6 odds on FJ, and that's when I placed my 0.14 BTC bet exactly around 7:58pm EST on De Jong to win.

Then about 1 hour later after 8:45pm EST, the line became frozen for at least 30 mins.

Afterward, around 9:20pm EST De Jong for some reason dropped from 2.6 to 1.2-1.3. Why did this happen I have no idea and once again it is not up to me to decide.

Then 3-4 hours later, between 12-1am (right before I was about to go to sleep) - I noticed that you voluntarily gave me an option to cash out either in full for 0.268 BTC or partially for whatever % I wanted while keeping the remaining amount open at 2.6 odds much like my original bet. So because I was given this option by you, and to minimize my risk, I decided to only cash out ~50% of my bet. But I did not expect this to happen at all and I was willing to go to sleep knowing I took a 100% risk of potentially losing this bet without getting anything back if my player loses, and I was willing to accept this risk even if odds didn't change and you did not offer my the cashout option.

Then the match started around 10am EST on the 24th, which is 9-10 hours after I performed my 50% partial cashout.

Then at 8:08am EST you sent me a bet cancelation email, which was sent 12 hours after I initially placed my bet, and ~7-8 hours after I performed my initial cashout. And only 2 hours before the match was about to start.

So if you KNEW for a fact that this was a glitch or error in the system, then why did you wait 7-12 hours before canceling my bet instead of doing it right away, as well as NOT giving me the option to do a full/partial cashout?

This is no different than when a user makes a bet on a certain player to win a match at say 2.5 odds. And then 2 hours later that player goes from 2.5 to 5.0, and now you're in a crappy dilemma. Had you waited an extra 2 hours, you would have gotten him at better odds. OR you simply changed your mind and decided it wasn't worth it anymore and wanted to cancel this bet. Or maybe you made a complete accident and put in the wrong amount.

Well, guess what? In this case, depending on the bookie, some may not allow you to cash out this bet at all and you would be forced to watch it play out without being to cash anything out.

And then there those who would allow you to cash something out, will allow you to do it at a 30-50% instant loss. So most of the time, it wouldn't make sense to do it as the bettor cuz you'd be losing a lot of money right away because either the odds changed or you simply made a "mistake" and changed your mind. But regardless of the reason you want to cancel after placing the bet, you will not be able to cash out your full amount without losing a large portion of it.

So much like I as a user may still be able to cash out but suffer a huge loss, similarly FJ wanted to "cash out" to avoid this bet being played out in full because they feared they were going to los the bet since the odds drastically changed. So they gave me the option to cash out whatever % I wanted at a guaranteed loss, that loss would still be much lower than if had I not cashed out anything at all.

So in simple terms:

I placed a 0.14 BTC bet at 2.6 odds = 0.364 BTC if I win
Then if I wanted to cash out in full after the odds changed it would have been = 0.268 BTC.

This means that if I had cashed out in full, FortuneJack would have cut their losses & saved ~0.1 BTC assuming the player I bet on would have won, which he did.

Therefore, it makes perfect sense why they would give me this option, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. It benefits them just as much as it benefits me if I take them up on it, making it a win-win situation. I lose out on winning an extra 0.1 BTC, and they save+cut their losses by 0.1 BTC.

It's also very similar to a case where you bet on an underdog player to win at 3.0, and then during the live match he was playing amazing and won the first set and is now up a break in the 2nd, in a very strong winning position. At this point, his odds of winning are no longer 3.0 but rather 1.3, and your 1k bet would turn into 3k total if he ends up winning the match. But at this time the bookie gives you the option to cash out in full for 2.2-2.4k (or less if you cash out partially), knowing that they are likely to lose this bet, so at least they want to cut their losses by $600-800.

At this point, you are guaranteed to win something if you choose to cash out in full or partially if that is an option; OR if you really believe that the player you bet on will close it out and win the match then you can wait an extra 30mins and by then it "should" be over. But in that case you run the risk of the favorite player making a comeback as it happens quite a lot.

So those who don't want to take too much risk will be happy to cash out in full for 2-2.5x their initial bet instead of potentially the full 3k, and are completely ok about missing out on a 3.0 win if they can be guaranteed a nice win at lower odds when given the chance at a 2-2.5x return.

THIS IS THE EXACT SAME IDEA!

You probably realized that it was likely that you were going to lose this bet after odds changed, and offered me the option to cash out whatever % I wanted to minimize your losses (as if you were about to lose a live match as I explained above); and I was happy to partially cash out and keep everything else in play which was still very risky because it was a pretty even match and anything could have happened on that day. This way, instead of you potentially losing 0.364 BTC, you would only end up losing ~0.314 BTC if my player wins - saving yourself a 0.05 BTC loss. This is completely fair and a win-win situation for both of us.

And no, I did not know or think the odds were wrong. How am I supposed to know this? For me, it was a fairly even match and there were no clear favorites. And even if I did think De Jong was the favorite - my opinion doesn't & shouldn't matter. The only opinion that matters is that of bookies who post the odds on their site and make them official.

You can post a match where 1 player was given 5.0 odds of winning thinking "yeah they're probably not gonna win", and I could be thinking the exact opposite & believing they have a good chance of winning + placing the bet. And then what do you know? If my player ends up winning then I was right while 90% of people thought otherwise. So once again, what I think doesn't matter and is why bets are made to see who's right & who's wrong.

In this case, I just happened to get in at good odds that made sense to me at the time, and I was fortunate that the player I bet on ended up winning the match. But the 2nd set was very competitive and his opponent could have also won it just as much, and if they played a 3rd set it could have gone either way, which proves there was no clear favorite in this match.

Also, here you wrote that he dropped to 1.16 - but in the email you sent me you wrote that you decided to cancel the bet because he dropped from 2.6 to 1.7. So why are you now mixing things up and changing the numbers?

I don't know where you got 1.16 from because even I didn't see him being given such low odds at the time. Also, 1.7 instead of 1.16 makes a lot more sense to me as well because the match was very even and I believe there was no clear favorite here.

So please explain to me & everyone here where or how did you get 1.7 from? And please stick to only this number because that was your only reasoning for canceling my bet according to your email.

Aside from that, I hope everything else I wrote earlier makes sense to you & shows why I believe I deserve to win my remaining amount in full.

-
You clearly don't understand how casinos/sportsbooks operate in general.

We've as a FortuneJack have neither technical nor legal right to manually update/change/disable odds on any game provided.

In this case, betradar is the company doing the updates on odds, any of the change is coming from their back-end, not us.

So you stating the fact that we were updating the odds from time to time, as well as coming up with the odd of 1.7 or a 1.16 doesn't make sense and is wrong.

As you're wrongfully trying to make us credit a bet as a win, may I kindly ask you what made you change the idea of doing it so?

Here we're uploading the screenshot of the email, where you're asking for the remaining stake, not for the winning amount:

https://i.ibb.co/qnm52X5/image.png

Need to as well mention the fact that you're changing the numbers you use with the comments here for the community. It only serves the idea of misleading other people and not emphasizing the truth. I do recommend you going back to the comments and see what you've been writing, as the odds updates, cashout times, and withdrawal periods were different from the facts that you've been providing.

Last but not least, at the time you requested the partial cashout, we had no signal from betradar about the mistakenly provided odds.

As soon as, we had our hands on the data - we immediately took an action.

Kindly asking the community, to read the email he sent to the company representative - this entire case can be considered closed by just reading the facts, numbers, proofs, and wishes by the user stating himself. No need to argue here anymore, if the community asks for more screenshots like this, most of them coming via email and chat, we would be more than welcome to reveal them. Unfortunately, many of those are quite sensitive and cannot be shared publicly - but if that's the case we can.

Once again you keep pointing fingers at betrader and blaming them for everything without taking any responsibility for making these odds go live on your website for 2-3 hours, and then choosing to give me the option to cash out partially or in full. If according to you they made such a terrible mistake and are fully to blame for this, then go talk to them about it and get them to pay me for my winning bet out of their own pocket (and btw, as a user I see you both as the same company and I don't like to see this "separation" or "me vs them" mentality - to me you are both equally the same).

But why are you blaming & penalizing ME for their mistake when I had absolutely nothing to do with it?

Why do I have to be the one who suffers your consequences and loses thousands of dollars while you and your lovely betrader partner get away with this and face 0 consequences for your "mistake"? That's not how it works.

In life, any time you make a mistake in anything it comes with negative consequences & you have to pay for it; and in this situation your consequences were either losing the bet in full or partially after you decided to change the odds. This is beyond my control and NOT my mistake.

Just like if I make a mistake and choose the wrong odds or put in the wrong amount to bet with, that also has negative consequences to me and is entirely my fault & has nothing to do with you. In this case I can lose a lot of money which wasn't intentional, but it is only my fault if it happens and I have to take 100% responsibility for it instead of pointing fingers at other people for my mistake.  

Also, to respond to the screenshot you attached in my email:

I was asking for the stake because that is something that should have been done right away. It is completely unacceptable to take away a bettor's stake if their bet gets canceled for any reason. This is what annoys me the most and you should have returned my stake 2 months ago, because that's what you MUST do any time a bet gets canceled. And much like a Hero or Legendary member recently said here - not returning my stake in the case of a bet cancelation is considered a criminal offense . It is theft & robbery at its finest.

So the first step or thing you must do is return my stake. And after you would have returned my stake THEN we can discuss and debate whether or not it was right or justifiable for you to cancel my bet 2 hours before the match was about to start. This can be a long debate but I have proven many times by now why I 100% deserve to win my bet in full, and many users here agree with me as well (which is why this is what I am ultimately going for & fully deserve).

But you returning my 0.0672 BTC stake is not even a debate and a complete no-brainer + non-negotiable. You MUST return my stake back at the very least and you should have done it right away 2 months ago. I shouldn't even have to ask or explain to you a thousand times why you need to return my stake back and why you should have done so the moment you canceled my bet. And everyone in the community agrees with me on this also.

Although ultimately what I am really after is claiming my bet as a full win because this bet should have never been canceled in the first place for all the reasons I explained above and earlier in this thread.

Not only is it morally & ethically wrong, but you had no valid explanation for canceling this bet to begin with. Mistakes happen and odds change all the time, sometimes more so than other times, but it is never a valid or good enough reason to cancel a bet in advance. Especially not when all other betting sites did not cancel this match for their users, and you are the only one who did.

How is that right or fair in any way? It isn't and I think you know this yourself.

You also mention that my facts and numbers do not align - what exactly does NOT align? What did I say or write before as evidence that is either NOT true or I am claiming something different now? You need to be more specific rather than just bluntly saying stuff like this & generalizing too much.

Finally, you blame betrader again saying you "had no signal from betradar about the mistakenly provided odds" at the time of my cashout.

Well, guess what? I can care less about your signals! It is not my fault or responsibility or mistake as the user. It is 100% your responsibility to make sure that BEFORE you give me this option to cashout, that you do your 100% due diligence with your betrader partner.

But once you make it official and allow me to withdraw if I wanted to, then that's 100% on you because it is your site, not betrader's.

It seems like you need to have a long discussion with betrader about what happened and how exactly you are both going to fix it by rewarding me my winning bet. That as well as how to avoid a similar situation as this happening in the future.

But for the meantime, you owe me 0.174 BTC for choosing the right player to win this match. Plain & simple.

And if you have any honor, dignity, or goodwill - then I'd like to think that you'll take responsibility for what happened (even if it was a mistake), and reward me for my winning bet in full.

The decision is final and will not be changed.

We do take the full responsibility for wrongly showcasing the odds live at the website for 2-3 hours approximately.

For that reason only, we're offering 25% of your initial deposit back as goodwill from the company.

Kindly asking moderators to take this thread into conclusion, as it moves no needle neither to us nor to the side of the community.

I appreciate your 25% off my initial deposit offer and while it is better than nothing, everyone here agrees that this is not the right compensation.

Bottom line is, De Jong was first posted between 2.6-3.0 on your site for 2-3 hours, then dropped to 1.3-1.7, and in your email you claimed that the change of odds from 2.6 to 1.7 was your reason for canceling my bet. You did not mention anything about a technical/palpable error, nor that it was a complete accident. Which makes sense because I did not believe this was a technical error or an "accident" at the time.

And now you are trying to claim something else as your reason? And you also cannot justify the 1.7 valuation either?

I think it is fair to assume that you made a "mistake" on your end with the odds (although I still don't fully understand why De Jong would be dropped this much or given such terrible odds of winning when this was a close match), but this is not my fault or my decision to make - and just like in everything else in life, you need to own up to & pay for your mistakes.. I should not have to be the one who pays for a mistake that was made on your end, and lose thousands of dollars because of that. And if you really believe & claim that this was all betrader's fault - then they are the ones who should pay for my winning amount.

Either way, I do not deserve to lose thousands of dollars because of a mistake that was made on your end (whether it is your or betrader's fault, to me it doesn't matter because in my eyes you are both equal), and one of you has to pay for this "mistake" & accept the negative consequences of any mistake that you make on your website. Not just in this case for me, but in other cases against other bettors too - much like I always pay for my own mistakes if I make the wrong bet or put the wrong amount by accident or any other reason.

This wasn't even such an obvious or terrible mistake either. It's not like you were going to post him at 1.17 and accidentally posted him at 7.0 (or even at 5.0+) or anything like that, in which case it would have been super obvious that it was a clear error.

In my situation, the "mistake" was nothing this extreme in nature and to me it certainly wasn't as obvious & clear as you claim it to be - and at the time I did not think & it did not seem like an accidental error at all, and I had absolutely no way of knowing that this may have been a mistake on your end (especially when the odds kept changing for 2-3 hours). I personally found the odds to be completely reasonable.

Also, you have still not explained how exactly you came up with 1.7 odds as you wrote in my email and used as your only reasoning for canceling my bet. So please stop changing & mixing up your numbers + reasoning, and explain to me and everyone here - how did you come up with 1.7 valuation? Otherside you are confusing & misleading everyone in the community if you cannot answer these questions and justify your reasoning.

Also - did YOU write this email to me, or are you going to blame betrader for writing this email too?
(It seems as though you've made far too many "mistakes" in such a short period of time for me or anyone to take what you say seriously)

I am still waiting for you to explain this to me, because especially looking at a drop from 2.6 to 1.7 is not that uncommon and is certainly not valid enough to cancel any bet. I am sure you are experienced enough in gambling to know this. Therefore, if my bet wasn't canceled I would have won my bet for 0.174 BTC fair & square.

Bottom line is - you need to take responsibility & own up to a mistake that was made on your website, and not sit back and blame other people for everything that happened without facing any consequences for making such mistake, and therefore reward me for me picking the right player to win this match (or at least return my 0.067 BTC stake back).

And once again, if you go back and read everyone's comments on this thread about what they think of this situation, 15-17 community members all agree with me that what you did is wrong, that the bet should NOT have been canceled, and that at the bare MINIMUM you MUST return my 0.0672 BTC stake back, otherwise it is considered as theft and a criminal offense. This amount is a complete non-negotiable and is something that should have been done 2 months ago as soon as you canceled my bet.

15-17 members who have been part of this discussion all believe exactly the same thing as me. This is fact and I quoted exactly what each member had to say about this situation, all of which are in favor of my side. It is not only MY opinion and I am not the only one who thinks this way. It is a unanimous decision & agreement amongst 90%+ of members who participated in this discussion & stated their opinion.

It is an enormous majority of the community, and since almost everyone here agrees with me just like you asked to see for yourself what other members here think & have to say about this, then that should serve as more proof+reason to you & validate why you should honor my bet as a win (or at the very least return my stake in full).

I would greatly appreciate your cooperation and will be more than happy to continue betting on your site if you'd be willing to do the right thing and honor my bet after choosing the right player to win the match. Then we can all peacefully move on with our lives and not have to continue talking about this ever again.

Thanks in advance,

EpicChamp

When you say these kinds of things you let everyone know you don't actually have any respect for the reality of the situation and will say anything to further your case. I'm surprised they offered you anything at all, and you should take their offer, which you didn't say if you accepted or not.

I have the utmost respect for this situation and I have done absolutely nothing wrong on my end. I played by & did everything according to their own rules, picked the right player to win, and in the end, they are counting my bet as if it's a loss (rather than a win or a cancelation) and are forcing me to lose out on thousands of dollars because of a small misjudgment that was made on their end. How is that fair in any way?

I am a strong believer in fair play and I definitely should not be forced to pay & get penalized for a mistake that was theirs instead of my own, and as a result lose thousands of dollars due to their misjudgment + something that was outside of my control as the bettor.

If anything, it is FortuneJack who is not showing any respect towards me isn't willing to honor fair play + count my bet as a win (or at the very least return my stake back).

That is completely disrespectful, especially when every other bookie faced exactly the same situation for this match the entire time, yet unlike FortuneJack, all of them rewarded their users who bet on De Jong at 2.6+ odds their full win, as it should be.

Why is FortuneJack the only one who isn't willing to do the same (noble) thing?

Sorry FJ, I am surprised that you are still dragging the case instead of solving it. If you admit the wrong and take the responsibly then why are you offering him 25%? If I take full responsibility of a wrong then I should be the one who will compensate the damage. Or I tell the other party that I take the full responsibility, but you pay the price?

There are two events that happened.

1. Player placed a bet of x amount when odd was a and return was b
2. Player cashed out m and left y as stake and return of y is z with whatever odd.

The amount m was cashed out and once the money m is in his account then it's his money. So case for m is closed.

=> Stake y and the return z is in the question.

I was expecting you were going to return the stake y in full and will settle the case. But when I saw the PM from EpicChamp then I looked at the case again, and obviously this is not good.

I sae the pool:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=774929.0

I did not vote in that topic, there are no point voting there.
Do you think pools like this works in a forum where alts can manipulate it? For a serious accusation, these kinds of pools are useless to be honest. Besides, I see I can pick only one answer but there are more than one I will pick.
- Return the stake y is the minimum you can do BUT according to you, if you take the full responsibility (mistake was from the provider, and you picked your provider) then possibly returning z is will be the best practice. However, since  you have informed the user before the match then you actually released some responsibility to the user too, so I would not suggest taking the full responsibility. You have done your best when you could to let your clients know about the situation.

^ This is my vote.

However, in your format, I have the following responses:
FJ does not owe anything to the player ❌
25% of the initial deposit is a really fair offer <<< == Not clear. 25% on basis of what?
Player's stake should be returned ✔️ (0.067 BTC as y, this is the minimum you can do.)
Player's bet should be paid out in full ✔️✔️ (z, double ✔️ means prefer it more over the single ✔️)

25% from initial deposit is not acceptable for anyone, this is not a fair offer at all and by asking moderators to close this topic is silly and can only bring negative feedback for FortuneJack but I guess they are in betting business and they can afford the risks.
I am giving neutral feedback here for now.

I'm not sure what you guys are high on but whatever it is - I want some!

The 25% offer is more than fair, more than what I would have ever offered if I were in control. You guys seem to get emotionally attached to the story EpicChamp is making up - he's leaving out many facts, changing the numbers constantly and keeps on quoting other members of this forum out of context to fit his narrative.

The fact of the matter is that FJ does not owe this player anything. And you can argue morals and ethics all you want but neither of those things would even be remotely close to giving FJ negative trust. And I know some of you who instantly jump on the side of "victims" have this inherit distrust (and possibly disgust?) towards gambling sites and that's fine, to each their own. But I would urge you to stop trying to impose your will in making them operate in a way that would, eventually, be to the detriment of the average player.

Community update:


We've just sent the KYC request to the user to better finalize the final step of the on-going case.

Once it's finished, FJ will be posting the final announcement.


Cheers,
Team FJ

And does @frtunejack as a sportsbook has the right to steal my initial deposit?
Last week I made a new account with them, I tried to deposit 995 USD to my account on their platform by copying the wallet address out of my profile, I pasted it in my wallet app and made the transaction, 2 days later the money was still not there, even though it has been withdrawn from my wallet app.

I started a chat with the support and they claimed that the wallet address which I copied from THEIR platform has nothing to do with Fortunejack and almost had the audacity to blame me that I made up this wallet on my own. They are refusing to help me any further, and the only response they give me after numerous chats and emails is this wallet has nothing to do with Fortunejack.

So I guess when they see a slightly bigger initial deposit they just decide to keep it for themselves and afterward deny any connection to the wallet!

Fortunejack are in my opinion the worst SCAMMERS I have encountered on all gaming and betting platforms - I can not believe they are still legally allowed to exist !!!!