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http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/senators-demand-military-lock-american-citizens-battlefield-they-define-being

We're only a relative step away from total martial law. Once they start occupying our own streets with troops, that is it, I'm off to the Canadian wilderness or the West Indies; whatever tickles my fancy at the time.

Tyranny usually comes with little and gradual notice. I am not going to hang along to see this abuse of power reach its conclusion.

Are you serious? On both claims.

Not any longer. It seems I have been deceived.

I live in China and I don't fear anything - there are goat herders in Africa happier than you - why are the people who live in the richest country in the world the most miserable? Eat another hamburger and buy more products and process your bureaucracy and drink Budweiser and  vote in a free election - I'm sure it will cheer you up.

Your government tends to stay out of your lives. It may enact bad policies but the enforcement is lacking. At least you guys have economic freedom to some degree. We don't have any manufacturing left.

Also, we won't be rich for much longer. You guys will be the new Americans in a decade or two.

Switzerland or bust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland#Military

The Swiss Armed Forces, including the Land Forces and the Air Force, are composed of conscripts: professional soldiers constitute only about 5 percent of the military personnel, and all the rest are conscript male citizens aged from 20 to 34 (in special cases up to 50) years. Being a landlocked country, Switzerland has no navy; however on lakes bordering neighbouring countries armed military patrol boats are used. Swiss citizens are prohibited from serving in foreign armies, with the exception of the Swiss Guards of the Vatican.

The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their Army issued equipment, including all personal weapons, at home.

I'm British - I just live in China - but you are right

Perhaps one needs more than money to be happy? Those hamburgers are destroying the environment, Budweiser is more legal than cannabis despite being far worse, and our elections are completely broken.

People in China just need family to be happy - ironically the system forces people to ignore the state and seek satisfaction in their relationships - no one trust the state so the tie themselves firmly to their families for support. Family is everything in China.
I accept Budweiser is shit - I drink Qingdao in China (Guinness is too expensive)

Sure tyranny happens, but you are more free than most people throughout time and geography.  For example; When and where else in history could I decide I want to live as a girl, then insist that everyone else play a pretending game with me? How few societies have ever arisen that allow me to say "there is no God" or "my leaders are idiots"?
There is always room for more freedom, but let's not forget how good we have it.  

Shouldn't you stick around and fight the abuse of power instead of running away?

Sorry, I don't plan on dying in a revolution any time soon. It's going to take an armed populace and an overthrown government to get any change. I am not a violent man. I don't have the balls to take up a rifle and die for my country's people. I admire those who do.

Where will they get the money to use the military in this fashion?  Troops on every street corner is expensive.  How much of the military would really go along with this? I don't just mean them reacting to new orders under the auspices of emergency, but day in day out 'occupying the streets.'  How long would it take before they would become targets?

You can't occupy America in this fashion.  Too many guns.  I say again, too many guns.  A breakdown of law and order is more likely than an explosion of enforcement 'police state' like things.   I have more guns in my house than people, and plenty of ammo.  I think this is true of many, if not most american homes.  And even in places like NYC where they require permits for even an air rifle and issue them to practically no one.  There are still many many guns, all readily available.

America is too well armed to turn into what you think.

Hope you don't plan on having more than 1 child, or reading wikileaks, or use facebook....

The police state is already occurring, Socialist Republic of California :P

Guns and ammo.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k281/blurr91/guns/Mosin-Nagant-Arm-5-people.jpg

http://www.beefjack.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Fat-South-park-Gamer-500-x-125.jpg

Land of the free.

i got one behind my bedroom door, got one in my car, even thought of putting one in the fridge.  I mean when was the last time a burglar checked behind your milk.  I might be able to just casually open the fridge one day if i were held hostage by some meth heads in my house.  And then wham!  38 special snub nose!  Only worry is rust.

Haha, yeah a refrigerator wouldn't work too well.  It'd rust up quickly with the condensation in there.

Isn't it illegal to carry firearms in your car out of sight?

depends on the state.  where i am (NY) u need a concealed carry license to have a loaded gun of any kind in your car.  if not, you must unload it.  but with a glove box and a detachable mag...well you get the point.

Sounds similar to where I live (Oregon).

It seems Texas has open carry for long-barrel guns. I'm tempted to get a P90 when I turn 18...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/FNPS9002.jpg/800px-FNPS9002.jpg

This provablely not so.  US manufacturing output by inflation adjusted nominal values peaked only four years ago.  We still make a crapload of stuff, most of it is of higher quality that can generally be produced in China for competitive rates.  Germany's industrial base is similar only moreso, as German factories produce some of the highest quality machined parts in the world.  Machined parts that manufactures consider critical for life safety are not made in China, as a rule, they are made in the US or in Germany.  Usually in Germany.  China makes lots of low end refrigerators, but the Sub-Zero is made in California.


Bah!  Wealth is relative.  The US has a long way to fall before the average middle class Chinese citizen lives in a wealthier society than an average middle class American.  Expats living in China don't count, they are wealthy by definition.

Mosin FTW

does not suprise me at all john mcain's name is on this thing

I doubt it will pass, we are too close to an election - Obama will veto this, just like he's trying to end waterboarding.

It's quite funny how it was done in a "Secrete closed door meeting"

if this were the bush era they would be doing it out in the open and portraying it as doing their patriotic duty!

Kentucky has open carry for just about anything, but no one really does because Kentucky also has citizens' concealed carry laws as well.  By some polls, roughly 10% of adults in Kentucky are armed whenever they leave their house.  Kentucky also sports the highest per capita rate of Class II and Class III weapons owned by civilians in the US, and one of only a few public firing ranges approved for such weaponry.  I live within a 30 minute drive of that range, Knob Creek Gun Range.

call me what names you will but thats scary as shit.


Arizona has similar gun laws, look what happened to Gabrielle Giffords

I believe as Americans we have a right to own guns and bear them if necessary but it is crazy to allow people to carry them around every where they go unless they are law enforcement.


No offense ALPHA but 90% of 18 year old boys do not have the reason and maturity to carry around a pistol, if I carried a pistol when I was 18 surely someone would of ended up dead.

A good friend of mine got mixed up selling drugs, he kept guns in the house, someone tried to rob him - he pulled out a shotgun and shot the guy in the back as he was running out of the house - thank God the kid did not die but my friend who was barely 21 at the time is spending 10 years in prison.

All the statistics show Gun possession causes violence not stops it.

Call me what you will but this is 2011 and it's insane to think that everyone should be allowed to carry around guns - especially concealed.

Hold up...let's just take a step back...what happened to Gabrielle Giffords couldn't have been prevented by creating more restrictive gun laws...not sure if you knew this or not, but a concealed handgun carrier was one of the ones to actually stop the shooter.

*Fact: 97.9% of officers believe, that through illegal means, criminals are able to obtain any type of firearm.

Only law enforcement should be allowed to carry firearms, and not Citizen's to protect themselves and their loved ones ?  Maybe you need to go read Warren v. District of Columbia, if you think the police are going to protect you.  Let's just remember that in Nazi Germany...they were just following orders, too.

*Fact: Tell that to 18,209 murder victims, 497,950 robbery victims, and 96,122 rape victims that the police could not help.

Maybe when you were 18, you were hanging out with the wrong "good friends" who got "mixed up" with selling drugs.  I'm not sure what State this occurred in, but almost all will put you away if you fire, after the threat is no longer imminent (ie, shooting someone in the back as they leave).  Thank whoever you want that your friend is only spending 10 years in prison and not more.

Gun possession most absolutely prevents violence.

*Fact: Every day 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.
*Fact: Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of the Washington, D.C. rate.
*Fact: In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their concealed carry law passed. Rape rates fell 93% faster in the first year after enactment, and 500% faster in the second.188 Assaults fell 250% faster in the second year.
*Fact: States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national averages.

http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdf

That fact is the rule of law -- our very constitution -- entitles the individual states to rule exclusively on guns. It is up to every individual state's legislator and it's populace to determine whether they should have guns or not. If you don't like the idea of people carrying guns, I suggest you move to a state that suits your palette. California is looking great when it comes to strict gun control. I suggest you move there or a state like that; however, most of us are going to stand by our guns in our respective states.

I'm not disputing anyone's RIGHT to bear arms, but it's probably not a good idea for most of us, especially you, Alpha. If you want to defend yourself, get a tazer or pepper spray. If you want to defend your country against occupation, learn about IEDs and guerilla warfare. You're too smart to die with a gun in your hand.

Don't talk to me about the law and the constitution I know what those are and we are not arguing what the law is. i don't have to move I already live in NY - we have some of the toughest gun laws and I thank God for them.

Guns Kill People. People make crazy decisions all the time because of emotions. You are what 17 years old? Maybe some day when you grow up and have kids you will understand where I am coming from. You can spill out a bunch of facts and bullshit because you think guns are cool and they make you feel like a big man, but you know what ? When no guns are around people dont get shot. and thats good enough for me.

Serious question to ask yourself.

Which is better – more gun control and the eventual banning of all guns in our society, or not sitting by helplessly watching as an intruder repeatedly rapes your 13-year-old daughter?

Enjoy NY.

It's fascinating to read about the fantasy musings of some people. Where do they get this stuff?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

that is such a ridiculous response I am not even going to give it an answer, c'mon man the NRA does not even ask questions like that these days

Guns kill people and that's why they should not be in the hands of the few to rule over the populace. Every individual should be able to stand his own ground and be able to defend his own property.

ADOLF HITLER
“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing.”

subject races? are you serious dude? Ok now this is getting scary bro

you turning this into something it is not, i never ever said I was against the right for people to own guns

Hmm. A constantly bored extremist who claims that he has the right to stop people from doing what he doesn't agree with a high powered automatic assault rifle. Yeah, that sounds like a great idea.

Just note that you can't edit the bullets of the people's bodies you shoot when you disagree with them, and if you try the cops will know.


Also, Atlas, this entire thread is garbage. You're going to leave the US just because some senators are exercising their freedom of speech and voting for a bill? What exactly about this process of self expression are you against? Did you in fact mean "If this happens, I want to leave"?

Under federal law you must be 18 to buy a gun, but you may be able to possess the gun at 16 or so...check up on that.  You might be able to have your P90 sooner than you think.

Right, they get stabbed, or beaten with a bat.

Permissive gun laws did not cause that shooting.  A mental breakdown on the part of the shooter caused it.  Restrictive gun laws would not have stopped it either.  Washington DC and New York City have some of the highest violent crime and murder rates in the US, while they are two of the most restrictive jurisdictions in terms of purchasing or owning weapons.

That is patently false.  Statistics seem to indicate that gun possession reduces violence and crime.

Do you think they actually help keep violent criminals from obtaining weapons?  Honest question, not trolling.

So long as people don't want to die, laws work. That's changing more and more everyday.

Ah, no.  That's not remotely accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime

This is the largest study on the subject ever done, anywhere in the world.  The conclusion isn't even in contest, the results of states passing carry permits for any citizen are overwhelmingly in favor of the title of the book.  More guns in society results in less violent crime overall.  We can argue all day over why this is so, but not about the empirical facts.

I know a guy who was born and raised in NYC, and moved to my present city of Louisville, Kentucky because he is a chef's assistant and now works for General Electric in the appliances testing division, presumedly testing kitchen appliances.  He was both shocked and a little taken aback to learn that there existed so many firearms in the city, and that it was legal for citizens to walk around with them concealed.  What shocked him most was to learn that no one got hurt.  I believe in twenty years, there is only one case of a concealed carry license holder committing a gun crime in the entire state, and that wasn't here.  I've literally seen grown men with "assault" rifles slung over their backs downtown in Jefferson Park (for one of the earlier Tea Party events, before the movement was co-opted by the Republicans; best of luck staying independent OWS).  Cops around here don't get sideways with whomever they wish, like in NYC, and they damn well don't do 'no knock' home entries after dark.  That would be an exceedingly hazardous occupational risk, particularly if they got the address wrong.

This same guy couldn't get a license to drive in NYC; not only does he drive here, he owns a firearm.  As far as I know, he doesn't carry though.  This is one of the safest cities in America.

That doesn't really answer my question.

But you're right.  Laws work for people who obey laws and they don't work for people who don't obey them.  Violent criminals, by their very definition do not obey the law, so why would they obey gun control laws?

Interesting that you were willing to believe such crazy things.

Time to tap the trust fund?

Bootstraps, idiot. The forest will be brimming with fruits and meat in mere admiration.

It's a long swim from Texas to the West Indies.

I will say Bitcoin has treated me very well.

If we had a law that said breaking laws was illegal, it'd fix all of this.

Sorry, I wasn't exactly replying, just making a general statement.

You know, that just might work....

Fair enough.  Your general statement is flawed though.