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President Nicolas Maduro has raised minimum wage. Again:

Venezuela raises minimum wage in fourth year of hyperinflation (https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/venezuela-raises-minimum-wage-fourth-year-hyperinflation-2021-05-01/)

"The Venezuelan government increased the monthly minimum wage by 289%, an official said on Saturday, moving from the equivalent of 64 U.S. cents to about $2.40 at the exchange rate estimated by the country's central bank.

Venezuela's economy is in its fourth year of hyperinflation, its seventh year of recession, and has been slowly and disorderly undergoing a dollarization since 2019.

Labor Minister Eduardo Pinate said the minimum salary would increase from 1.8 million bolivars to 7 million bolivars as of this month.

Pinate made the announcement at a Labor Day event broadcast on state television, adding that the food bonus state workers are slated to receive would also increase.

The new base income of $2.40 plus the food bonus now represents $3.50, with which Venezuelans can buy a kilogram of cheese and a liter of milk."

So, three comments here: first, Venezuelan workers are millionaires but in terms of a crappy currency that is losing value at a much faster rate than the dollar, which is saying something. Second, with that money they can buy just a liter of milk, for the whole month. This would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. Lastly, one can see that increases in the minimum wage have gone hand in hand with the loss of purchasing power.

I've read somewhere that he has raised the minimum wage more than 40 times since he is in power but I can't find the exact source. According to the following source, however, he raised it 21 times between April 2013 and March 2018:

President announces new increase in minimum wage (March 2018) (http://country.eiu.com/article.aspx?articleid=196503403&Country=Venezuela&topic=Economy&subtopic=_2)

This is the result of measures that were sold in favor of the poor and that have ended up making them much poorer, causing more than 5 million of them to emigrate from the country:

Venezuela exodus set to top 5 million as long-term needs grow, officials say (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-security-un-idUSKBN1X21MM)

Those who have remained in the country suffer from power outages, shortages, violence and hunger:

Venezuela Drifts Into New Territory: Hunger, Blackouts and Government Shutdown (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/28/world/americas/venezuela-economic-government-collapse.html)

As Venezuela Collapses, Children Are Dying of Hunger  (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/17/world/americas/venezuela-children-starving.html)

How Hunger Fuels Crime and Violence in Venezuela  (https://time.com/longform/hunger-crime-violence-venezuela/)

Here we can see how simple thoughts that in principle are sold as beneficial, end up being a disaster. Are there people with low wages? We raise the minimum wage. Do we need more money? Let's print more. Again, this would be laughable if it weren't so tragic. It should be remembered that Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, as well as deposits of gold, diamonds and other raw materials. Well managed, this would provide the majority of the population with a more than decent quality of life. Norway, for example, with socialidemocrat governments, set up a sovereing wealth fund in 1990 to invest the profits from oil and gas exploitation, which has resulted in the world's largest fund from which all its citizens benefit.  (https://www.lovemoney.com/news/85476/norway-oil-reserves-norges-investment-fund-returns-strategy)

I would like to finish saying that I hope the Venezuelans will do well in the future, but I think they are in for a tough time.

Yeah well, what do you think has been happening in slow motion in the US and other countries over the past century or more?  Prices rise, wages rise in step (sometimes).  Workers in 1906 could buy a meal at a restaurant for $0.25 but some made about $1/day.  And look at today's prices and wages in the average American city.  Anyway, it's sad to see Venezuela getting hit this hard.  The thing I'm wondering is whether Venezuelans are actually using that shitty currency or are using something more stable (like the USD or some other relatively local currency).  I can't imagine anyone there would want to save money in the form of a currency that's hyperinflating.  They'd either spend it as soon as they get it or trade it for dollars (or crypto even).

Any Venezuelans here who could shed some light as to what the reality is there?  I've asked that before in a couple of other threads about Venezuela, but I don't think I ever got any replies.  Has there been an increase in crypto adoption as has been claimed on a bunch of Youtube videos or is that just BS?

I am sure that Venezuela will be able to overcome this crisis day by day. they are starting to rise from their downturn, their leaders already know how to deal with the risks of the economic crisis that befell Venezuela. So the role and regulations that have provided an increase in wages in Venezuela become a new hope so that in the future it can be even better. there has always been a reformer from every decade of government in Venezuela. we who are outside Venezuela continue to fully support this achievement. We always hope that Venezuela will be equal with other developing countries in the future.

Even though the rise is too huge its still not a logical thing which is going to help the workers so government should concentrate on bringing more investment opportunities and employment opportunities then simply rising the values, again the government raised it with a single sign but who is going to pay the money the fellow citizen not the government so there should be a change should occur if they want to overcome this crisis.

This is the biggest tragedy of all, it is natural that people want to improve their standards of living but instead of doing the only way it can be done, by working hard, improving yourself and other similar measures they ask the politicians to take actions like that and since politicians care about nothing else but to get their vote and be popular they do so.

Then the people blame the politicians when things take a turn for the worse but this was not caused only by them, the people participated on their own tragedy, this is why politics should be a specific field of knowledge and a great deal of it should be dedicated to the economic aspect of running the government otherwise things like this will keep happening.

This is very unfortunate. In country like these people usually send one of their family member to work abroad. The Government is flawed and the whole economic system is more like a joke. I do think it's very much needed that the country independently starts resolving their issues, do not compare their whole system to USD or anything. Work independently, start resolving the issues of venezuela, there is serious mismanagement! The country lost their whole system due to decreasing oil production which nearly disappeared and the oil prices fell drastically at the same time the corruption needs to be controlled to a whole extent!! They are already big on bitcoins, I do think people should train more in the IT sector, start working online. Recieve their payments in bitcoins and if the Government does not make any progress then people have to start looking out for themselves and cryptocurrencies can help them in that way certainly.

I think the world is more concerned with Africa, -although am an African- in terms of bad economy and suffering, butj think Venezuela is one of those countries that the citizens are living a poor standard life, I have a Friend who I chat over the phone from Venezuela and she said their power outage has gone so bad and also they use the firewood, I can't remember the last time I used it saw a firewood.

I think their present government has failed the people of Venezuela, and I had taught my country had the worst minimum wage in the world, now Venezuela is officially my worst, and  the raise of the minimum wage by that amount is a summary of the life the people are living, you have to work multiple work to run a family with such wages

I am a socialist. I will never understand why people who live in capitalist societies do not consider that they are in big trouble, I mean I live in a capitalist nation and it looks like much worse than Venezuela.

If you think that the worst nations in the world are socialist ones, you might actually be right, why? Because there are dictatorships there as well, have you ever seen a socialist nation without a dictator? They will never mention the names of that.

Look at Europe, even though they are a democracy, they have all the great socialist ideas, free colleges, free healhtcare, free many things all paid with your taxes, isn't that great? Yes Venezuela is socialist, but so is France, yes Cuba is socialist but so is Norway, why not see them? Look at USA, worlds biggest capitalist nation, people die because they can't afford their insulin, that is the nation you want to be in? I rather not die from something that 1/3 of all people have, that is as insane as it gets and makes USA a third world country in my view.

Certainly the government has to shoulder plenty of the blame. But we must also consider that to some degree the misfortune of the population is due to US intervention (https://www.dw.com/en/the-human-cost-of-the-us-sanctions-on-venezuela/a-50647399) over the last few years. History teaches us that any leftist leader in Central or South America is simply beyond the pale, and must be dealt with, whether that's crippled by sanctions, or quite brazenly ousted by force... as we saw with 9/11 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Salvador_Allende).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/media/images/72138000/jpg/_72138109_72138108.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/US-involvement-regime-change-Lat-Am.png/800px-US-involvement-regime-change-Lat-Am.png

I also hope so, although I have a little doubt the present older generation of Venezuelans will see the end of the tunnel during their lifetime. Maduro looks young and fit. And while the opposition seems to have a good amount of influence and force, their strength seem insufficient nevertheless to unseat Maduro and replace the set of corrupt leaders.


How do you define socialism, then? Does that automatically follow that since a country is providing free healthcare, education, and other social services to its people it is already a socialist country? How about the fact that capitalism and democracy is actually very much vibrant in the European countries that you've mentioned like France and Norway? Or is it that both capitalism and socialism could exist side by side in a government?

Yes they will if they adopt a new ccurrency which could be the US dollar but right now I don't think that it will be the case, people will have to suffer for a while with this problem that Maduro and his predecessors created. Also, how come it is a communism if the wages were increased, is it wrong to raise wages for the working class? I find it stupid that everytime the rights of the workers are being taken care for the better, it becomes a commie shit which it isn't.

The essence of socialism is very simple - steal the money from the successful people and distribute a part of it among the poor. Since the poor have a greater voting power, the political party which promises to do this will be elected to power very comfortably. Now the problem with Socialism is that, eventually they run out of money to steal from. Successful people will either migrate to other countries (similar to what happened in Cuba), or they will lose their money and become poor themselves.

As far as I know, they use it on a day to day basis but those who can save or have previous wealth have it in USD or cryptos, following Gresham's law, spend the bad currency and save the good.

There must be some Venezuelans on the forum, but surely they don't speak good English and will be on the Spanish board.


From what you comment, I don't know how they can do that to pressure the government without taking into account the repercussion it has on the population but:

1) Sanctions started with Obama.
2) When they started they already had years of disastrous populist government.
3) The EU, which is more social democratic than the US, has also imposed sanctions.

I mean, sanctions don't look to me like some evil savage capitalists preventing the country from progressing.

The regime in Venezuela isn't communist.It's more like an authoritarian socialist,populist corrupt regime.
A real communist regime means 100% state owned command economy and I think that there's something like a private sector in the economy of Venezuela.
I wonder how Maduro and the government in Venezuela managed to survive for so long.Is it because of the support of the army and some weaponized "red militia"?I don't know.Politics in Latin America has always been weird and exotic.US sanctions have an impact over the hyperinflation in Venezuela.We can't put all the blame on Maduro. 
Anyway,when communism fails,the communists say that it wasn't "real communism". ;D

US sanctions certainly do have an effect. You only have to go as far from US soil as Cuba to see that this is the case. But yes, sanctions are at the milder end of the scale.

Sticking purely to Venezuela to remain on topic...

How about US involvement in the coup of 2002? Whatever the CIA was doing behind the scenes, and however much they deny involvement, their protestations are unconvincing.

_{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt#US_role_and_alleged_involvement}

Also, is it really entirely coincidental that Venezeula has the world's largest oil reserves? The US does have some history of 'interest' in countries where they can steal the oil... consider for example the 600,000 violent deaths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties) in Iraq following the 2003 invasion.

... but I agree that this is only one aspect. Much of the fault for the current situation in Venezuela lies with Maduro, with corruption and mismanagement. Also I would absolutely agree that extreme leftist regimes are intrinsically more susceptible to corruption and authoritarianism. I'm not disputing any of this, all I'm saying is that Venezuela starts from a profound disadvantage because a) it has a leftist leader, and b) it has oil. To suggest the US has had no effect on instability in the country is I think disingenuous.

http://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2010/04/uncle-sam-oil-257x300.jpg

I would say that it is a populist, communist-inspired regime, and it is very communist today because over the years it has destroyed practically the entire private sector.


No, I don't think it's a coincidence. Just like I think the invasion of Iraq was done for oil.

Anyway, I think the tendency of the country to self-destruct would not have been much different even if there had been no US intervention. So we are quite in agreement.

The fundamental problem is oil. The huge abundance of oil in Venezuela is both its blessing and its curse. If a country has one overwhelming source of wealth, then naturally it focuses on that to the exclusion of everything else. The endemic poverty in Venezuela is I believe a direct consequence of its oil wealth. Its over-reliance on oil is an example of the economic phenomenon known as the 'Dutch Disease'. For example, Venezuela produces only 30% (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MPjaMom-b64J:www.fao.org/in-action/agronoticias/detail/en/c/1071630) of its own food supply.

_{https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/economics/dutch-disease/}

In the '70s, when oil prices were high, the capitalist-run country was thriving.
In the '80s, oil prices dropped, and poverty hit hard. The country had bet everything on oil, and had no plan B to fall back on. There was unrest. Capitalism had apparently failed. People wanted change, and so...
In the '90s, they elected a socialist, Chavez, who would bring about a new, more equitable system of governance, end the inequality, and bring back wealth to the people.

I do believe that in general Chavez was well-intentioned, but he didn't manage Venezuela in a sustainable way. Maduro then inherited the problems of Chavez... problems which in large part Chavez inherited from the previous capitalist regime... which were due to the abundance of oil.

US involvement is part of the reason for the problems of Venezuela.
The current regime is part of the reason. Chavez is part of the reason. The capitalist regime preceding Chavez is part of the reason.
But beneath everything, oil is the cause.

An absolutely expected situation. It is a pity for people, but they themselves are the culprits of what has developed in the country now. It is foolish to build an economy on oil alone, it is foolish to elect a dim-witted populist president. I hope the population will understand that it is necessary to vote not for promises, but for logical goals. I hope that politicians will also understand that it is impossible to build an economy on oil alone. And all together will be able to "restart" the country. But if you continue to believe in the communist-socialist delirium, then you should not expect a normal life.

I don't think that you should blame the people of Venezuela. They had two options in 2013 (after the death of Hugo Chávez). The first choice was Nicolás Maduro of the Socialist party and the second choice was Henrique Capriles Radonski (who represented the Primero Justicia party). A lot of people were scared by the religious extremism of Capriles and additionally the death of Chávez created some sort of a sympathy wave in favor of Maduro. The people voted for the least poisonous option, and that turned out to be Maduro. If Capriles was elected, then he would have destroyed what remains of the Venezuelan portion of the Amazon forest (similar to what his friend Bolsonaro did in Brazil) and exterminated the indigenous groups.

While building a country only on natural resources is risky, there is nothing wrong with. Look at the middle east, all their wealth is coming from oil and exporting it. The difference here is the government, in the middle east there are mostly monarchs who make sure that they become rich first, but since they get so much money they also invest it back into their own country. Building hotels and trying to attract tourists a nice source of income as well. So natural resource can be the first step to a wealthy nation, but it needs a lot of investment in other areas to become competitive.

You can never compare middle east with Venezuela. In Saudi Arabia and the other Arab nations, the cost of producing crude oil can be as low as $2 per barrel. But in Venezuela, most of the crude is stuck in reserves that are difficult to exploit and it costs around $40-$50 per barrel to extract crude oil. Saudi Arabia can still spend billions of USD in luxuries, because they are still having surplus cash in hand. But that is not the case with Venezuela, as they don't have much revenue left after counting the production cost.

If a nation really wants to help the poor so much, they have to tax the rich higher, and poor lower, that would be enough, more than enough. Think about a person with minimum wage in almost any nation, and they do not pay any taxes at all in anything, wouldn't that make them a lot better? In that case the power of the money stays the same, those people spend that money and basically pours that money into the economy helping the whole nation, and the country is still quite strong.

Well, what if all those people not paying taxes mean bad for the government treasury? Just make sure to charge higher taxes for super wealthy, people who make 10+ million dollars a year, and if any of them try to take their money somewhere else, make sure you charge them a HUGE fine when they bring it back, that way if they want out, kick them out, they can't come in without proper apology amount paid.

It's that you Graham (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/07/venezuela-not-greece-latin-america-oil-poverty)?

They are overcoming this for 8 years and they somehow still manage to be 20 feets under..
Leaders..oh my god, leaders? And not only that, leaders? Are we talking about the taxi driver turned president?
The one telling people to grow rabbits on their balconies to overcome national hunger?


Sorry for you! There are remedies although, you could try getting rid of it


Because we have food? Or a job? And access to healthcare? And we're not shot and beaten up for telling jokes about el president?
As for being worse than Venezuela, I'm just going to say one thing, cut the bullshit!


These evil Americans, how could they sanction this country, such greedy level capitalist.
Funny how despite all those soc called sanctions, PDSV was able to buy Citgo, and operate refineries and gas stations in the US while every Us company in Venezuela had all their properties nationalized and has been kicked out.
Despite all the bad things Venezuela has suffered from the US they seem to be so keen on selling oil and doing business in the US, I wonder why?
Maybe because that's another trait of socialism, propaganda against everyone when actually there is nobody harming you other than your stupidity?


Caldera was a capitalist? Seriously? Seriousllllllllyyyy? Who the fuck nationalized the petroleum industry in Venezuela in the '70? The Martians?
Talking about the disease, this is also a socialism disease, rewriting history!

Venezuela's economy transitioned from being one of the wealthiest and richest economies in south america.

To eventually becoming one of the poorest in south america.

Many of the same policies which led venezuela to poverty are being proposed and endorsed at the highest levels in the USA.

Perhaps in venezuela's current state of affairs we might glimpse america's future.

That's one rough interpretation which, just like the rest of the other interpretations of socialism, is highly debatable. Taxation, for example, has some socialist underpinnings. It could also be interpreted the way you interpret socialism even if it is implemented in a highly capitalist society. For others taking somewhat extreme positions, they would also consider taxation as a kind of stealing. And taxation is applied everywhere.

The Biden administration's American Families Plan, for example, is seeking to impose heavier taxes on the wealthy. Those rich people who are earning more than a million USD a year, for instance, might see their capital gains tax rising to almost double the rate.

Would you, therefore, consider the USA as a socialist country more than a capitalist one?

USA is considered as one of the best examples of capitalist economies. They became the largest economy in the world, solely because of the capitalist system. Back in the 20th century, the USSR had more natural resources when compared to the USA, but their economy failed because they followed the socialist system. But the trend nowadays is to move towards a more populist system of governance. It requires more and more government handouts and rewarding the unproductive population. The funds required for this obviously need to come from the taxes. As per the American Families Plan, the tax rate on capital gains may increase to more than 50% for certain states such as Oregon, California and New York. If that is the case, then why the rich should invest in capital assets? They will just keep their money in the liquid form rather than taking the risk.

Venezuela paid a price for insisting on what they want to happen. Increasing the minimum wage is pretty fair for what is going on since the prices of commodities are also going up.

Isn't this what is going on in US as well?  Biden announced to raise $15/hour for American employees, this is what is going anywhere in the world. The resources is just not enough anymore.

Here I disagree with you. It is not the oil, it was the Chavista policy of practically basing the economy only on oil when the price was high in order to carry out populist policies by showering the people with money. The saying: feast today, famine tomorrow applies better than ever here. You talk about Dutch disease but Norway as I mentioned before managed its oil and gas discoveries very well.


I don't know if he had good intentions or not. Like many communist leaders, I don't know how they could have gone from trying to protect the poor, for at least that was the initial discourse, to mass murder of the poor, either directly by mass murder like Stalin, Pol Pot and others or indirectly by starvation.

Caring about the poor implies empathy but killing them is for psychopaths, so I do not know if they were already psychopaths and the initial discourse was an excuse to gain power, or they were someone who really cared about the poor and once they gained power they lost touch with reality and to stay in power and their political project became more important than the lives of the people.


Very interesting, txs.

It's really sad to see Venezuela in such a state, a country with so many reserves in natural resources and minerals, such as gold, oil etc. This is the result of years of economic mismanagement and corruption, leading to such poor living conditions, in a country that has so much potential. Most Venezuelans are actually using USD for their everyday needs, since Venezuelan Bolivars are way too inconvenient to use, due to the high inflation, you'll have to be carrying bags of Bolivars just to spend $2. A similar example of a corrupt and mismanaged economy was Zimbabwe.

This wage raise should have happened a long time ago, the people that are in power just got lobbied to not raise those wages because the companies don't want to have workers have more cut on the profits of the company that they are working for. This is not communism, this is human decency in action.

How hard will Venezuelan people need to experience before kicking Maduro in position ? i felt sad seeing venezuela suffering from this when they use to be a great country .

I thought that Asian and african country has this lowest rates but Now venezuela is even worst.

I don't know if you have noticed that purchasing power has gone down at the same time that Maduro has raised the minimum wage. There are no lobbies left in the country to pressure Maduro. What you call decency is being poorer and poorer and going hungrier and hungrier.


If you read. If you had at least read the OP, you wouldn't ask such things:

That's why I said that this thing should happen a long time because right now it will be problematic since they are experiencing a hyperinflation. I know that raising wages causes inflation but in a healthy inflation, it is a good thing.

Let's look at the history of countries where resources form the country's budget to one degree or another. Middle East, Saudi Arabia (2nd place in the world for oil reserves). An interesting example!
The oil industry is the backbone of Saudi Arabia's economy (40% of GDP, 75% of revenues and 90% of exports).
The development of the extractive industry starts around the 30s of the last century, OREK is created, around 60-70s the country begins to receive tangible income from the sale of oil. It seems completely. a resource-based economy, BUT huge money is invested from oil revenues in investment funds, the construction business, and the chemical industry.
Saudi Arabia invests in major international projects, in the purchase of real estate and land abroad.
The question is - what prevented Venezuela from acting wisely and diversifying its revenue side?
Of the positive examples, I can also give the example of Norway. Of the negative - an example of a Soviet union - a non-competitive economy and the budget's dependence on oil sales led to catastrophic internal processes and the collapse of the USSR ... depending on how it is controlled.

We know the Venezuelan currency collapsed and the crisis is still on. Despite the crisis, it’s way better to increase the minimum wage than none at all. Right here in the Philippines, our minimum wage is 387 Philippine pesos ($8.04). That’s just good for a low wage earner who is single, but way, way, way not enough if you are a bread winner of having a family with kids. Just saying.

You're another one who doesn't read. They are in the fourth year of hyperinflation, and in these 4 years the minimum wage has not stopped rising:


It was also raised in 2019 and 2020, a simple google search tells you that.

And the people of the country - what is it, biomass crazy, needs and desires? Remember a simple axiom - we are responsible for our actions, and for inaction too!
If the people by OWN VOICES brings an idiot to the presidency, then the people are a participant in this negative process, and they share the guilt for what the president did later, but THEY DID NOT DO ANYTHING TO STOP IT! Therefore, their guilt is unambiguous, okay, they fell for promises, but then they did not stop the policy of idiocy and the murder of the economy. The position "we have nothing to do with" is a very bad human quality. It's always easier to pin the blame on someone else without admitting your mistakes.

If you read my post, I'm saying that Chavez is partly to blame. I'm also saying Maduro is partly to blame. I'm not an apologist for the far-left. But I'm also saying that sanctions have an effect. Surely that's not so controversial? Also I don't have a particular problem with America. America behaves as the powerful have always behaved, throughout history. Britain, France, Spain, etc... back to antiquity.

COPEI is certainly not left-wing, neither was Caldera. And Venezuelan oil was nationalised not by Caldera, but by Perez, his successor. Perez was probably centre-left? Certainly not a communist. And in any case, nationalisation of a country's primary industry is by no means incompatible with a capitalist framework. Just as a person who buys house insurance (which is obviously a form of socialised risk) shouldn't be hunted down by a McCarthyist mob and extradited to Russia.

The thread title is 'Enjoy communism'. The current situation in Venezuela is not a result of communism.
It is in large part a result of Maduro, and also of Chavez, yes... but not communism. It is also due in part to oil, sanctions, the US, previous administrations, etc. I don't see why this should be such an outrageous and controversial idea.

I should also point out, before someone alleges something to the contrary, that I personally am not a fan of communism. History demonstrates quite clearly that it is prone to corruption, and that it is unworkable. But I take issue with the popular belief that anything to the left of the hard-right libertarian laissez-faire ideal should be decried as communist.

This salary increase no longer seems strange to me, sincerely there is nothing worse that can happen, although the salary increase for the rulers represents the best way out, it is a total economic fallacy what they continue to do, this is not what people anymore take into account, Venezuelans have an alternate economy, everything is handled in dollars, and everything is much more expensive than in any country, any item, inflation is already immeasurable, people can set the price they want in Bs, which Actually, it is handled in Dollars, when it comes to Bs, absolutely nothing can be bought.

The reality of the country when it began to sink faster than the titanic was having elected Chavez, thanks to him the communist current that they disguise as socialism originated, which has nothing of socialism.

The best thing that Venezuelans do is to continue living their day to day without taking into account the traditional economy, the banks do not even offer credits of any kind, because it is not profitable, neither for the banks nor for those who want to acquire it, if you have bs you must get out of them quickly because in minutes you lose more and more value. For me, the case of Venezuela in particular has no solution, the only solution is for all the rulers to leave, perhaps by changing the model, Venezuela can be reborn, I am truly realistic.

That is something that those of us who believe in little intervention and regulations tend to do, exaggerating. I acknowledge that. At the slightest regulation or tax increase we accuse of communism.

Ideally, I believe that there should be some intervention (some free market theorists argue that everything should be private, justice, security forces, etc. everything). I believe that sectors such as health, justice and security forces should be if not offered and controlled exclusively by the government, at least in cohabitation with the private sector, in health for example. Just as the government has to help people who cannot fend for themselves. From there, I understand that the best thing is the minimum of regulations and the minimum of taxes possible, which is a system that has its flaws, but at least it is not as disastrous as extreme interventionism.

If every single voter had preferred Maduro during the elections, then your argument would have been correct. But that is not the case here. Let's take an example. During the March 1933 German federal election, National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP) of Adolph Hitler was voted in to power. The NSDAP won 43.91% of the vote, with a turnout of 88.74%. That means that less than 40% of the registered voters preferred the NSDAP, while the remainder either abstained or voted for other parties. Now will you say that the entire race of Germans need to be blamed for the rise of NSDAP, including those who voted for the opposition parties?

Dealing in absolutes is easy. Harder to rigorously define those terms before use.

I always thought governments akin to companies that have gone beyond notions of 'efficiency'. Groupings of individuals lead to interesting things with mixed results, whether you think statelessness^* is good or not. Creating an amalgamation of individuals to progress toward some ideal can always have unintended consequences - it's all a matter of how one structures power in different ways at the end of the day.

This is an eloquent distillation of my entire argument in this thread.

The Venezeulan crisis is not a black and white issue. The presence of vast oil reserves is the underlying fact. What we then have is generation after generation of messy history applied on top. It's easy to blame whoever is running things at the moment, but to do so is to conduct only the most superficial analysis. Maduro certainly hasn't been great, but picking up the presidency when he did was akin to picking up a live grenade... which had been passed through many hands before it reached him.

That’s the right wing media that make things the way they are right now. If you are against capitalist companies ruining the world, you are suddenly a communist. What is it so communist about wanting people who worked hard all their life to not be rationing their insulin for example? If you want insulin to be free and paid by the government from our taxes, you suddenly become a communist, how so? I mean I paid my taxes, I want to take the medicine that keeps me alive, the other possibility that I won't be able to afford insulin and die, how is that bad?

However media makes sure that they talk about billionaires and protect their rights over people because those same billionaires are the ones that are paying their salary, so they do their best. Politicians are also bribed by them, so the whole nation is basically a big corporation heaven. Then they show poor people in venezuela and act like everything is cool with USA, just because Venezuela sucks doesn't change the fact that the biggest capitalist nation allows people to die so that big pharma can make more profits.

This could happen to any country if they elected an incompetent and corrupt leaders. The increase in minimum wage could be hardly felt by the citizens of their country if the prices of goods and commodities are also increasing. Leaders should be more wiser in handling decisions now specially that the world is in state of crisis and potentially could push down economies at lowest level.

I don't think the situation in Venezuela will change for the better any time soon. The salary is a little over two dollars a month, it's ridiculous. But, of course, not for Venezuelans. For this salary, you can buy thirty eggs, that is, the salary provides one egg per day. Therefore, a significant part of the population of this country is simply starving there. Everything needs to be changed there.

Well thats very bad to see happening. It's not a good news since its creating hyperinflation in the country. It means though they get more wage for their work, then they will have to pay more for stones and pebbles too! The president have done some serious damage to the venezuelan economy for sure. I am not sure what the economist in their countries are doing but they surely not guiding Mr. President in proper direction. Even its basic math, the more money you print or the more money you circulate in the nation you will end up having hyperinflation and thus paying more than 2x to 10x for things around you. With their actions they will have bad impact on the businesses and won't be able to tackle the simple daily needs as well. They must do something in terms of economic health to restore the natural order.

If the US didn't sanction Maduro, it may not be really very difficult for Venezuela to rise up because they have Petroleum. It is one of the richest country in the South.
Just like Saudi, the country can actually revive everything in their economy.

If Maduro is a dictator there wouldn't be protests going on there for even the rights to protest will also be forbidden but it's not. There is democracy and freedom in the country and we can point out who is manipulating the media to make him look the worse. If US gets Maduro, US will eventually have oil and will not rely to middle east.

It is not that bad. I am not a resident of Venezuela, so someone from there can correct me if I am wrong. Large number of Venezuelans are employed in the neighboring countries such as Colombia and they send considerable amounts as remittance (more than 5 million Venezuelans have left the country in the past few years). Also, a lot of Venezuelans do freelancing and receive their salaries in USD or other foreign currency. Even inside Venezuela, the salaries are not that low.

And the worst part is that they never listen, if a socialist country wants to raise taxes that is one thing, but in Venezuela we saw the government confiscating the assets of big companies, the international community warned the government of Venezuela at the time this was an awful idea as no one will want to make business with them in the future if they kept taking those actions.

They did not listened and now they cannot attract foreign investments, they thought they could get around this with their oil income but when the price collapsed this threw into disarray any semblance of order in the country and now they are going through these adverse times, and unless something changes this will be their reality for decades to come.

That only means Venezuelans need to look for other source of income just to support their daily needs, and most of them already travel far abroad just to look for a better job and get compensated enough to support for their families still living on Venezuela. I understand the hyper inflation that is happening in Venezuela, their government should create a concrete solution that benefit their citizen in long term, their Salary is way below than I expected.

As far as I know, they not just confiscated the assets of large corporations, but also did that to some of the rich Venezuelan individuals. Socialism always work using jealousy. Poor people are always jealous of the rich, and want their wealth to be stolen and redistributed. But the first group never attempt to become rich themselves. They give all sorts of excuses for that - lack of education, lack of opportunities.etc. And the political parties make use of this mentality to exploit them. Since the rich are very few in number, they can be looted, harassed and thrown out of the country. But the main issue with socialism is that eventually they will run out of rich people who can be looted. And this is what happened in Venezuela.

So what does the victory of the NSDAP have to do with the elections in VENEZUELA? In Venezuela, Maduro received 67.84% of the vote. More than half and a large majority. The fact that it was not 100% turnout - I agree, but in fact, with the silent, voiceless, consent of those who did not come to the elections - Maduro, in fact, also won. I mean direct and indirect participants who raised even more to the presidency. This means that they must bear joint responsibility. Some for actions, others for inaction. The position "I did not vote, I am not to blame" is the position of an irresponsible person, an irresponsible citizen of the country!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Venezuelan_presidential_election

Maduro received 50.61% of the vote, while his opponent Henrique Capriles Radonski received 49.12%. Turnout was 79.68%, which means that Maduro received around 40% of the overall votes. This was the last election that was conducted in a mostly fair manner. The 2018 election is a joke, since most of the opposition parties refused to participate. Maduro received 68% of the vote in that election. Two of the most important opposition leaders (Henrique Capriles and Leopoldo López) were disqualified.

Whether the 2018 elections are fair or not is a slightly different question. Although I completely agree with you - elections without choice are nonsense!
I wanted to talk about the so-called civic responsibility and citizenship of Venezuelans. Low turnout is also an indicator that many residents DO NOT care what will happen in the country. This is a mixture of stupidity, cowardice to be responsible, and just a devil-may-care attitude ("let them choose for me"). Well, those who came to the elections ended up "finishing off" the country with their choice. I am leading all this to - you cannot relieve the responsibility of citizens, they make a choice, or do not, or do not allow to do. They bear joint responsibility, they are the accomplices in this process. And Maduro is only a darling of fate, who managed to deceive gullible and / or stupid citizens. This is not only a problem for Venezuela, we had a very similar situation in 2019 ...

What do you want the ordinary citizens to do? Rebel against the government? These things are very easy to say, but extremely difficult to implement in reality. Stalin ruled the USSR for three decades, exterminating 60 million people during that period. Why didn't anyone had the courage to stage a coup and overthrow him? The answer to that question will be applicable to Venezuela as well. In dictatorships, there is hardly anything that the ordinary civilians can do. Blaming them for the dictatorship is illogical.

Venezuela is a fake country. The increasements in minimum wage are fake, elections results there are fake, the opposition is fake. I think the only real thing there is the communism which kills and proportionates a terrible life.
Don't take that percentage of votes seriously. And at same time, if people don't vote it's not only because they are irresponsible, but also because they see no point in doing so, as the other party is probably not going to work decently and honestly for the country. In my country at least that is my conclusion and I have no desire for voting, because both sides are liars and deceptive.

If you check carefully you will see in many countries most people never vote and the election is always decided by the minority of the population (the politicians lackeys), so all this talk about democracy is biased and a big manipulation. If democracy were good there wouldn't be so many corrupt members of executive, legislative and judiciary defending it unconditionally.

There are around 85 thousand rapes a year, more than double the rate of the second nation in that category.

There are more people jailed than next 5 nations combined, there are people dying from lack of insurance or healthcare, there are people who die in overseas wars, there are over 20 million people who can't read, there are gun violence almost everywhere and more school shootings than rest of the world combined, there are neo nazi groups and there are police killing innocent people at least once a month (usually more frequently on average) 70% of the population is overweight, nearly half a million homeless people, over 40 million alcoholics, over 40 million people who are in poverty (according to poverty guidelines made by government, this number is a lot more according to other nations standards of poverty) and there are so many undereducated kids in schools that the fact that some of those kids won't be given lunch for not having money means there are kids who go all day at school without eating is a second issue to lack of quality in education. There are 724 billionaires who worth 4.4 trillion combined as well. This is United States of America.

The same thing is happening with most third-world countries and sadly even in America, albeit at a much slower rate than what Venezuela is experiencing right now. Goes to show that poor governance can really mess up a promising country as Venezuela. It may be a laughing matter for some, but for Venezuelans aren't having much fun with their liter of milk and block of cheese.

OK.. no need to write an essay. Let me summarize it - the billionaires in the United States own $4.4 trillion in wealth. The socialists want all that wealth to be seized and redistributed to the "poor" people. If you are living in a socialist utopia, then this is the perfect plan. But think for a moment for how long this $4.4 trillion is going to last. As per your own calculation, there are 40 million poor. Divide this $4.4 trillion by 40 million, and you will get $110,000. Now this may be enough for the poor to love comfortably for 2-3 years. After that, what you will do? Billionaires are gone. So you are going to target the millionaires? The cycle will go on until no rich people are left. Then what? From where you will steal once the rich people are gone?

Of course. We must also think that the US is more capitalist than Venezuela, of course, but it is not the paradigm of free market and absence of regulations.  There are many things I don't like there, and some of them have been mentioned by @dezoel, but communist style redistribution always ends in disaster. As I was saying in another thread:


And then, someone who lived in a comunist country added:

The plus point for United States is that even with the Democrat party, there are factions that are opposed to socialist policies. But nowadays it is the extreme-left, which is dominating the party. Some of the proposals from the current Biden administration reminds me of extreme-left. One example is the proposal to tax capital gains on par with the income tax. At present none of the countries have such high taxes on capital gains, for obvious reasons. Now let's see whether these proposals will get the required support.

Venezuela increased its monthly minimum wage by 289%, or 64 US cents, to $2,4 at the Bank of Venezuela's estimated rates, while the price of a kilogram of meat is $3,75. The government of President Nicolas Maduro has raised the minimum wage twice this year, amid the COVID-19 pandemic, severe economic slowdown and hyperinflation. Although Venezuela relaxed its economic controls two years ago, allowing for increased foreign currency transactions, many workers continue to receive wages in the depreciated local currency. Honestly, I don't know if this is a positive news or not, since it does not mean much for the current lives of indigenous people.

I believe that a citizen of a country who voted for his candidate has the right to demand that he fulfill his promises, or fix the problems he created! The country's constitution and legislation does not prohibit rallies and demonstrations.
If we talk about dictatorship, what is a dictatorship? This is just a group of people who have the ability to intimidate another part of the population. For example - the president + the government + the security forces. But these are all people, and the siloviki are whose sons, husbands, fathers. There are a lot of mechanisms of influence on them! You remembered well about the USSR. I'll explain here. The USSR arose on the ashes of tsarist Russia, which was essentially destroyed by the revolutionary movement, followed by the "Red Terror" and "power of the proletariat" - that is, the "power" of an embittered, lumpenized, primitive, envious rabble. Terror destroyed in the first 2 decades - tens of millions of its citizens, people were terribly intimidated! Although, as history shows - not everywhere! There were territories that, right up to the mid-1960s, waged an insurrectionary struggle against Bolshevism, the Communist Party, and, in fact, the fascist regime within the USSR. An active struggle was waged in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus, Ukraine ... Even in the Republic of the RSFSR itself (this is the part that is now Russia), there were quite a few riots and uprisings against the authorities. According to the habit of the Soviet regime, they were always hushed up and classified information. The dictatorship in Ukraine ended with the shameful flight of President Yanukovych to Russia, in Ukraine there is no complex of "worshiping power", therefore there is no fear of it, if necessary, to remove it, even confronting the armed police and security forces. Therefore, dictatorship is in fact an indicator or level of fear of the population of power, or worship of power. The conditions for the dictatorship are created by the "people"

This is what you get when central government becomes too powerful with no know-how of how economy works. When you come into a system and you believe that socialism will work instead of Capitalism, Capitialism has its own flaws but it is still the best system we have for now.

If you become familiar with the concept of economics, the economic system in a socialist society, you will be surprised. There are no markets, no satisfaction of demand, no competition, nothing. There is a consumption plan where the "elders" decide how many pairs of socks you need and which ones, how much pasta and sugar, as well as toilet paper, medicines and watches! And nobody cares about your taste, desires, plans. This is socialism. But if you get acquainted with the economic model in the communist state, I'm afraid your eyes will twitch and you will be tormented by a couple of days of sleepiness :)

Venezuela really have it rough. That is nowhere near a livable wage anywhere in the world, and at that rate I'd rather commit a crime and be fed by the state rather than be overworked and severely underpaid. No wonder crime rates are not going down as it's literally a hell hole in there with those economic conditions. I'll not be surprised if barter is a more efficient way of trading than using the bolivar. Venezuelans are robbed of the right to live decently, and the government hasn't done enough to change the narrative since the statistics just get worse every year. 

Hyper inflation, what a very unfortunately situation in Venezuela. I've watched one vlog from a known travel vlogger and had opened to the world how people are surviving there despite the low wages.

And also a government that really became corrupt.

I would like to reply to The Pharmacist.
Venezuelans buy US dollars in order to alleviate inflation. Most Venezuelans do not have the ability to save, their bank accounts will surely be empty as well as mine.
The adoption of crypto in Venezuela has one of its most important representatives as it is.

https://cryptobuyer.io/es/merchants/ (https://cryptobuyer.io/es/merchants/)

But unfortunately its CEO Jorge Farias died as a result of covid19 last month. Probably the development of his project is slower because of his absence or maybe not. How everyone knows how to adopt cryptocurrencies in any of the scenarios is a long journey.

Venezuelans buy and sell cryptocurrencies on P2P Binance, there are also other platforms such as Cryptoway and Cryptobuyer. I have used all these platforms to sell bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies to make use of my local currency and meet my daily needs every week.

The adoption of the cryptocurrencies that you can see in the videos has been thanks to the efforts of Cryptobuyer and other personalities but it is a small and important part to continue moving forward.

I think it would have been better if you had quoted him, but I gave you merit anyway. This is what the Pharmacist said:


Are you from Venezuela @verita1? You seem to at least know well the country.

They had a really bad planning in their economy and now the people are suffering from this hyperinflation, there are still ways that you can do that doesn't involve crime, you can always find food when you are near a forest, plant some vegetables if the future is still un ertain. And you can also sell your skills, some of the people in Venezuela get by through crafts and stuffs that they can put a price on.

That is not socialism, that is dictatorship. If one person decides what you will wear and how many socks you will have, how could that be a democracy? Do you really believe that someone else deciding how many socks I could have could ever be democracy? Impossible, hence it is not socialism neither, it could be considered communism instead.

What western nations run by capitalism doesn't tell you that socialist nations like Spain, France, Norway, Finland, Sweden, even UK in some things (and ruthless capitalist in others) all are run by socialistic values, free healthcare, free education, free meals to kids at school, all paid by taxes, those are socialist values, and yet you can still elect a capitalist or a militarist or whatever else you want, because it is democracy, and you can go buy any sock you want, nobody would stop you from doing that.

Thank you Poker Player for giving me 1 Merit. I wanted to make a quote to The Pharmacist and I couldn't.

I must also thank you for the interest in creating a thread about my country.
In relation to the Venezuelan minimum wage, each year on May 1st it is customary to hear about an increase.
I can only tell you that among families we collaborate to cover the expenses of those who need the most.

A look at how the Venezuelan approaches dollarization can be checked here:

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/maduro-seeks-speed-up-digital-payments-venezuela-runs-out-cash-2021-03-15/ (https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/maduro-seeks-speed-up-digital-payments-venezuela-runs-out-cash-2021-03-15/)

Oh wow. At first I thought it was raised to $2.40 per hour and I was a little surprised. But then I noticed it was $2.40 per month. Now that is messed up. And really? They can only buy a cheese and a litter of milk? How are they surviving? Their government really fucked up. They were supposed to be rich. They were once one of the crucial oil producing nation in Latin America. See how corruption can destroy a nation? I have heard now goons and warlords are taking over everything. This is really sad.

Another thing @The Pharmacist was asking was whether there has been an adoption of cryptos in Venezuela. I remember seeing news that said yes, but I would like to hear about your experience. Also, I guess what you earn from the signature campaign will help quite a bit. I have checked the campaign spreadsheet and I see that you will be earning about $20-25 per week, which is not much but I imagine that in Venezuela it is a blessing.

Jeez, what the f!!! Didn't know that situation in Venezuela was this bad :o. Damn, I used to think it was just some kind of bad situation that is manageable . So, all these their minimum wage has been at 64 cents? That's really bad. And come to talk about this small $2.40 being worth up to 7 million bolivars, wow :D. This shows that their currency has crashed seriously if ordinary $2 dollars is worth millions there.

I am just wondering how these people have been surviving with this kind of situation. It's very, very bad and I hope they really find a way to get out of it. How much are they going to be selling foodstuffs and how can people afford it if these foodstuffs are with the same as it's worth in other countries?

I agree, I have always though that political movements like it are based on nothing but jealousy, I understand that we all want better conditions for ourselves and our families but we have to work for them, as long as the rich got there not because they were corrupt but hard work then they deserve to be rich and enjoy their position as much as they want.

Movements that seek to take from others what they rightfully gained not only are nothing more but thieves but it also discourages anyone that could want to work hard as they know their work is going to be stolen from them creating a downward spiral from which it is impossible to escape.

The videos you have seen about the adoption of cryptocurrencies in Venezuela is true. But it is only happening in the main cities of the country and in some commercial businesses.

We have important leaders who are working to grow the crypto community in Venezuela. As an example:

Mariangel
Community manager for Latin America at Binance.
https://twitter.com/justmariangel (https://twitter.com/justmariangel)

Ernesto Contreras
Head of business development Dashpay for Latin America
https://twitter.com/ernestocontrer (https://twitter.com/ernestocontrer)

To know firsthand how our community grows in Venezuela and Latin America Binance Español is the best place to observe.

https://twitter.com/Binance_Spanish (https://twitter.com/Binance_Spanish)

Another proof is this job offer by Binance in search of Community Manager for Venezuela.

https://jobs.lever.co/binance/60e6c858-b2dc-410f-96f4-d9232933390a (https://jobs.lever.co/binance/60e6c858-b2dc-410f-96f4-d9232933390a)

With my income from the Signature campaign I am testing to see if it is possible to save for my 12 and 13 year old nephews. 😊

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the population would prefer a socialist system for temporary benefits. If you ask the 7.5 billion people living in this planet whether they want a wealth redistribution or not, a majority are going to vote in favor of it. Who is going to refuse free money? But the problem is that this can be done only once. All the rich people will be gone, and after this what they will do? When there is no rich person left to rob, the socialists will start stealing from the ordinary people. And this is what happening in Venezuela.

Thanks for the input--it does look like crypto is picking up in Venezuela, and it's nice to hear from somebody who lives there.  That's also very nice of you to want to save crypto (or money in general) for your nephews, so good luck.

PokerPlayer, I appreciate the PM alerting me to verita1's post, as I haven't been closely following this thread and wouldn't have noticed it otherwise.  And I can't remember where I heard it, but there was a mention recently of how Venezuelans were trading their fiat for crypto in order to protect themselves from inflation--so I'm assuming that's going on fairly widely.  It's a smart thing to do with any fiat currency that's being devalued faster than you can spend it.

Very correctly noticed about non-compliance!
But there is a nuance - this is how socialism was built by the USSR and its henchmen, in the form of a dictatorship, with a total dictatorship, with a restriction of rights and freedoms! Namely, by “feeding” people with a beautiful idea (you must admit that socialism is a quality idea), they perverted the implementation and built an objectively terrible world of terror and violence, where a person was only a resource for achieving the goals of a handful of dictators! Imagine what the inhabitants of the USSR were brought to, that for an attempt to sell JEANS, people were actually sentenced to capital punishment, i.e. death penalty by firing squad! No, I have not lost my mind, and not under drug intoxication, this is REALITY from the USSR, "the country of developed socialism" (here is an example https://lovetalk.ru/groups/interesnie-fakti/djinsi-kak-prestuplenie-kak-eto-bilo-v-sssr /, Google will translate). This was the face of "Soviet socialism"! And the price of "free", in the USSR, education, medicine (by the way, of a disgusting quality for the most part), was work for a beggarly salary. For example, about the same jeans - the average salary in the USSR was 120-150 rubles / month, and jeans cost 200-250 rubles, and someone had to bring them from Western countries.
I will add that the countries you mentioned did not build 100% socialism, but they took a lot of it and implemented it into their system, and they did it much better!

This is the first time i am hearing about these specific brutalities but i have read a few and in totality it was a horrible period to live with two world wars and life was a struggle and then on top of that these sort of miseries and fear of the government when people are trying to make ends meet.  

I could see your point, they took the good values in socialism and implemented in democratic countries. Not sure every country who borrowed these values are doing much better as nothing is perfect and you need to look in different countries that implemented them to analyse the success ratio.

The USSR has always presented itself as "the best and fairest country for the people", and in fact this regime is worse than Hitler's Germany - so that you know, the Soviet regime destroyed its citizens no less than Hitler's Germany did the inhabitants of the USSR in World War II.

About the "introduction of socialism" - I do not idealize these countries. Moreover, I personally visited most of them (I love traveling), and touched how people live there. I like the way people live in Finland. I like the changes in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia. I feel comfortable in Sweden and the Czech Republic. Yes, there are also problems everywhere. But small problems are normal, the world is not ideal, but they value PERSONALITY, FREEDOM, LAW. It is very important !

^^^ Countries such as Sweden and Denmark are not socialist countries. They are capitalist countries (with a large wealth disparity), with socialist principles implemented in some of the sectors such as education and healthcare. I don't even know whether we can call these as "socialist" principles, because providing free education and healthcare to everyone is more like a humanist idea than a socialist policy. Socialism plagiarized some of these principles, so that it would look more appealing for the poor.