Bitcoin Forum

Someone asked if a CBDC can make Bitcoin worthless. Read the white-paper for “FedCoin”, and tell me how it can make Bitcoin “worthless”, when in fact it definitely WILL make it more valuable.

Why?

The paper says, “In practice, this would mean that a CBDC intermediary would need to verify the identity of a person accessing CBDC, just as banks and other financial institutions currently verify the identities of their customers.”

It will KYC everyone, and invade your privacy.

It also says, “ Intermediated models for a U.S. CBDC have the distinct advantage of involving private-sector partners with established programs to help ensure compliance with these rules.”

Is that developing the mechanisms to censor the user?

It is everything that Bitcoin it not. I believe if CBDC is fully adopted, it will only increase demand for a censorship-resistant type of money. Bitcoin. 8)

There are rules to prevent anti money laundering and counter financing terrorism, but yet there are still money laundering that only involve fiat, there are still terrorism that are only funded with fiat.

I thought CBDCs are cryptocurrencies before but they are not, I still do not see any connection between bitcoin and CBDCs. Bitcoin is independent of CBDCs and others. Before CBDCs started evolving, bitcoin adoption has been increasing.

CBDCs are banks in another (modern) makeup. You still depend on your country's central bank but less dependent on the commercial banks you are using, but that does not mean you will not depend also on them in several cases. No matter what it can be, be it private or public organizations that created CBDC, it has to comply with the country's central bank and central bank will have much control as well.

Yes, but there is nothing new about CBDCs, CBDCs are modern era fiat. So, nothing new.

While we don't know exactly how a certain country's CBDC would work, I'm going to guess it would just be very close to how fiat works on finance platforms like online banking and PayPal; that requires AML/KYC by default anywyay. I don't think having CBDCs would change a thing.

A CBDC is both a better and worse version of fiat depending on how you look at it. In terms of privacy, however, it is definitely worse than the good old cash. At least with the old bills and coins, transactions could be anonymous and irreversible, big brother could not snoop each time your money moves, they couldn’t be frozen, and so on. With a CBDC, you are very closely monitored. Whatever little sense of ownership you have with money is taken away.

If privacy matters to people, the demand for Bitcoin would spike the moment a CBDC will replace the old form of fiat.

maybe cdbc will make bitcoin more valuable, i still don't understand how cdbc can make bitcoin more valuable,? while CDBC is a digital currency that is controlled by the central bank, don't we all know that the central bank is very anti bitcoin, even the Russian central bank has also proposed to close bitcoin mining, many articles that I read there are still many pros and cons CDBC problem, I will always follow every article that develops..

there are many ways to have a CBDC without every transaction needing KYC.

EG if the transaction value is excess of 10,000 CBDD(central bank digital dollars) then its not only a signature of a spending key needed, but also a identity key needs to be added to the transaction for it to be valid to be added to a block.

this means small purchases dont need such ID attached tasks but larger purchases do
so for those that do send and receive 10,000 they need to register. but those that just play with 1-1000, dont need to register

the good thing about code is, any rule can me made in code.

these 'identity keys' dont need to be public, but instead archived in a IRS/SEC system thus your neighbour wont know how many coffee's or lambo's you bought unless they physically stalk you in the real world. but still allows the SEC/IRS to digitally monitor the large lambo's without being inundated with every purchase. and without physically stalking your front yard

..
yes people will still want to try pretending to be private by using crypto. but eventually the conversion from crypto to fiat, ends up with banks seeing the fiat move..

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i know people think that just because a crypto exchange didnt used to self-report its customers in-house exchanges.. but as soon as you withdraw your fiat even without an exchange report.. your bank ALWAYS has reported you receiving or sending large fiat.
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people are already using a CBC(central bank currency) and so that part is not really causing much fanfair for crypto.
however just introducing a crypto CBC atleast teaches people about the tech of public/private keys which could lead then to want some more privacy, once they get used to the concept of crypto.

EG credit cards seemed odd at first, people preferred bank notes. but once debit cards became popular and people got used to debit cards for normal life spending. then more people started also using credit cards. because they got used to the tech/method, accepting it as the norm. to use plastic instead of paper

Bank of America has said CBDC would preserve the status of US dollar as world's reserve currency. Also this CBDC is into usage by 2030. It is also said CBDC and stablecoin adoption is inevitable. Korea have already implemented and tested phases of CBDC. CBDC and DEFI are the most into research over the years. More than 64 countries making research, out of which 20 countries have already developed their CBDC. Countries will never show this interest if it is something decentralised like bitcoin and can't be controlled. As it is completely centralized and can be controlled, governments adopt it.

I think Yes,CBDC will make Bitcoin more valuable. CBDC is digital currency and It's controlled  by the central bank. American bank also said that CBDC status of US dollar as reserve currency. Bitcoin is most popular coin and It's decentralization and decentralization will never be stable. But CBDC and stable coin adoption is inevitable.

It's a very big assumption to think that CBDC will even be released, so far all these years it was nothing more than just an idea. If central banks really wanted it, they would have at least made some prototypes by now, after all it has been 2-3 years since the CBDC hype has started. And then, even if some countries will make it, it's not a fact they they will be widely adopted. And then it's a big "if" people will pushed towards Bitcoin, because people quite easily give up their freedoms, especially in finance, when most people have no idea of what's going on.

Today every company has an intranet that only its own employees can access depending on their clearance levels. They are specialized networks that cannot be compared to the Internet; the World Wide Web the way we know it.

Similarly, CBDC's will be nothing but cryptocurrencies running on central servers owned by countries. IMO, They make no difference to bitcoin whatsoever. When it'll come to an actual decentralized currency that is not owned by any government, it'll be Bitcoin. Its the single point for free institutions to rally around. On top of that, the truly decentralized FinTech is being enabled because of Bitcoin and Ethereum. There is a need for the product and institutions behind them to mature. Considering the many developers and brilliant minds working on these problems, it can be said with considerable certainty that CBDCs will be nowhere near as popular.

It won't happen because CBDC is just another variant of traditional fiat currency. It is a new tool to help government have more easily process to add new supply into circulation. With traditional fiat, they will need lots of physical infrastructures but with CBDCs, it is more easily for governments so they will make inflation become worse.

In the end, inflation, hyper inflation will support Bitcoin adoption and growth.

I would rather say that they'll give Bitcoin more legitimacy, since they'll look similar to the average Joe.
More value? Maybe. But Bitcoin already has more value than we'd think, it only has to be discovered (by the world).


I won't be so confident in this. People are easily manipulated and they may trust government easier than this strange free computer project they don't understand.
Many will ask why use Bitcoin when they have their e-Fiat.
Bitcoin will remain a great investment, but CBDCs have the potential to slow down Bitcoin adoption. (They also have the potential to help into a seamless connection between Bitcoin and fiat world, hence using Bitcoin too as a coin. But it may depend from country to country.)

But I think you do understand the fact that CBDC's would definately try and dominate the market making the government take legal actions against bitcoins therefore they might try and block bitcoins and ask users to use CBDC'S or take other actions regulating it on various levels. But I do think because of all these privacy issues people would value the bitcoins more. Therefore the assumption that it might make cryptos more valuable but that's clearly have ill defined values. So I think it would define bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies better but there would definitely be a lot of probelms along the way for them.

It's like an ever-growing trend against decentralized blockchain technology. Banks and countries are afraid of the power of bitcoin so they will make CBDC as a counterpoint. Regarding the form of CBDC I also do not understand, but it seems that the government has the right to control, regulate and supervise. Therefore it is very far and contrary to the principle of bitcoin. China, which has officially banned all crypto activities, has developed E-CNY as a counterpoint.

old banking use to be
wire transfers cost $10 and took 6-24hours
remittance cost more and took longer.

bitcoin offered a currency that could be used by the unbanked for small amounts at small fees (2009-2015)

but now banks can offer instant transfers for free and remittance in seconds, cheap.

also people wont run away from a CBDC because LAWS will be in place that
employee incomes would need to be paid at X rate CBDC
taxes and court fines would need to be paid at X rate CBDC
and retail purchases for sales tax reasons will need to be paid in CBDC

the only reason people would want to have an alternate currency is to 'off-shore' their hoard value away from the tax man.

bitcoin has (due to dev-politics), stifled bitcoins utility of mass unbanked populations who only receive $5 a day in wage. as the fee's are pretty much a days labour. thus bitcoin has already lost a niche of 1billion people

yea i know some will advertise the pegged networks that offer faster cheaper services. but then thats not the bitcoin network. its the pegged coin network they are advertising where users dont even touch or use the actual bitcoin network. and wont settle to the bitcoin network, again due to fees. they'll prefer to settle to an altcoin of lesser fee

bitcoin should not rely on government CBDC to hope it makes bitcoin more popular. and instead actually get back to the 2009-2015 premiss of offering people something more useful than institutional banking on the bitcoin network

I believe that CBDCs are a first step towards a full adoption of cryptos in the traditional economy. Bitcoin can benefit from this, as well as blockchain in general. however, stablecoins are already a reality and are currently worth more than $120 billion dollars according to https://blockchainjournal.news/bank-of-america-says-stablecoins-and-cbdcs-are-inevitable/ (https://blockchainjournal.news/bank-of-america-says-stablecoins-and-cbdcs-are-inevitable/)

This is generally a controversial issue that needs to be tested in practice. CBDC is simply a more efficient financial means of non-cash payments of states in their currency. Therefore, CBDC cannot be similar to cryptocurrency. Any financial transactions with the currency of states require user identification. Therefore, for CBDCs, user identification is commonplace.
However, since CBDCs will be much faster and more efficient than conventional non-cash payments of states, it is quite possible that they will compete with decentralized cryptocurrencies to some extent. CBDC lose to cryptocurrency by complete centralization and complete lack of anonymity, but at the same time, their transactions will be not only controlled, but also protected by states. How CBDCs will affect the price of cryptocurrencies, including bitcoin, will be shown by practice after the mass appearance of CBDCs themselves.

A few people in the topic already seem to be conflating CBDCs and stablecoins, but they're very different things:

Stablecoins are tokens which are supposedly backed by private capital.  A company claims they have a certain quantity of assets and issue tokens to represent those assets.

CBDCs are nation-state/government issued currencies.  No private assets involved.  The currency is only "backed" by the perceived strength of the nation's economy, much in the same way fiat is.

I've added a little bit of extra, since fiat will not disappear yet, since far too many simply don't have internet nor care about it.


There are other possible reasons, from faster money transfers (especially international) to getting paid for your work without the need of KYC. And investment. People have been always using the stronger currencies as investment. Bitcoin fits that use case too.
(Of course, keeping money away from certain eyes can be also an use case, but not everybody is doing that.)


If the politics would have been different the price for a coin would probably have also been different. Of course, this may not help the unbanked much, although people were always resourceful.
I will avoid the topic you don't like. I will tell about those micro-payment websites some have been using for faucets, I will tell about off-chain "transactions" made by people using the same web wallet like service (eg Coinbase). Or some people can simply ask to get paid into the deposit address of a Bitcoin-card service and spend from that card. So the 5$/day people do have some options (they probably won't know nor care to use more complicated methods anyway).
I don't tell that those methods are good or bad, it's not the purpose here. The purpose is to show that people are resourceful. And I am confident that more ways to handle small transactions will be invented.
I know that you would have preferred bigger blocks. But even if that would have been fixing the fee problem, maybe, it wouldn't have made bitcoin suitable for paying at the supermarket - which is considered sometimes as a measure of success as a currency/coin - because of the block time.


I somehow agree that we should not rely on govt products for success, but on the other hand I don't think that we can otherwise and I tell you why.
You also wrote that the shop will accept govt money because of laws, taxes and such. Shops don't have much of a reason to accept bitcoin, because it means more paperwork and also more risks (sudden price fluctuation). So if we want to use Bitcoin-as-a-coin, we may not have much of a choice than provide a "connector" between bitcoin "world" and fiat/shops/banks world.
When shop owners will start seeing Bitcoin is indeed useful and used, maybe some will start accepting Bitcoin too. But I don't think that a "revolution" will just happen. Until then, we may need to connect with CBDCs. Not seeing them as a savior or such (by far!), still.. they may come handy.

As I said in the previous post. Govt launching CBDC can end up with govt rising more obstacles for bitcoin or can get to help bitcoin connect to the monetary system / the merchants. Not the best solution - imho never is - but one more step forward.

i dont see bitcoin as a take-over attempt of fiat.
i dont see bitcoin as something that needs 'dollar'

im in the UK and i can buy US products with my pounds. because yes there are middlemen that accept pounds and THEY convert it to dollar for the merchant.

im invested in bitcoin and i can buy US products with my bitcoin. because yes there are middlemen that accept bitcoin and THEY convert it to dollar for the merchant.

this DOES NOT mean my pounds need the american dollar to promote pounds.
thats what forex exchanges were made for to have them hedge the risks of exchanging. so that pounds can play in UK and dollars can play in america without them being dependant on each other.

i dont have to rely on US government. i can however use a private business that hedges the exchange risk where they make fee's/profits for hedging the exchange risk.

...
but now lets go back to the practicality of a CBDC vs bitcoin.
if a CBDC does everything faster, cheaper then bitcoin. people just wont see the point of bitcoin

It'll work just like the stable coins that usually gets to help the pumping for bitcoin. We can't stop these CBDCs since it is the government that will push its use through their mandatory ruling. But OP is right that due to the censorship that it's going to provide and to make it easier to understand, the centralization that it will commit once they're already running. Not everyone is going to like it, there will be more people that would like to stay private and anonymous and with that choice, they'll be ending up still straight to bitcoin.

I believe the first demonstrations of a real CBDC in practice will be China’s CBDC during the Olympics next month.

Plus I also believe that many of the posters might have missed the main point of the topic. CBDC strengthens Bitcoin’s narrative/main value-proposition, which is as a censorship-resistant, decentralized digital currency, and therefore the mere fact that it exists, makes Bitcoin more valuable.

Paper-money might be centralized, but it is more private, and more censorship-resistant than a CBDC will ever be. What would stop the central issuer from censoring anyone in that system? Didn’t the Cypherpunks want to build a network for a decentralized currency that no central authority could control?

Me neither.


Here the situation is imho more nuanced.
You say you don't need USD, and you're somehow right, you don't. But the middlemen do, hence, indirectly, you need it to. (Please don't argue with semantics, I think that I am pretty clear).
The same goes with Bitcoin: we won't need US dollar, or fiat, but we will need all payment processors handle bitcoin, not just very few (and, at least in my country, overly expensive).
And maybe CBDCs can help with that, by making the connection easier. Or maybe not. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm hoping too much. We'll see.


Fiat already does that now. And since it's the merchants who pays most of the fees, the consumer may even think that it's for free.
What bitcoin does better now is only 3 things:
* it can be used internationally, easily, without conversion
* it's a much better investment than any other currency
* it works well without banks, KYC, the need to have a certain age or live in a "better" country

Although the 3rd is the reason Bitcoin was made for, many don't care about it (they care only about 2).
I'd say that our aim is to see 1 work much better, i.e. have much more shops accepting bitcoin directly (and whatever the payment processor does internally is a more complicated story).



It depends on the country. China is most probably marching for CBDCs for multiple reasons.
The one that they can advertise is that they won't have to pay big fees to VISA/Mastercard.
The one they are interested in is total control. The control over everybody's money, everybody's wallets. How easy will the opponents made poor in minutes!

I believe you are right about it. I was reading the Five Observations on Nigeria’s Central Bank Digital Currency (http://imf.org/en/News/Articles/2021/11/15/na111621-five-observations-on-nigerias-central-bank-digital-currency) some time ago and that quoted section cut my attention,

"Like coins or cash, the eNaira is a liability of the CBN. The eNaira uses the same blockchain technology as Bitcoin or Ethereum and, like them, the eNaira is stored in digital wallets and can be used for payment transactions; and it can be transferred digitally and at virtually no cost to anyone in the world with an eNaira wallet. There are, however, important differences. First, the eNaira features stringent access right controls by the central bank. Second, unlike these crypto-assets, the eNaira is not a financial asset in itself but a digital form of a national currency and draws its value from the physical naira, to which it is pegged at parity."

Even though they try to liken it to Bitcoin and Ethereum Blockchain, we can see what the bolded part is noting. Regardless of the country where CBDC has been implemented, I believe that will be the same, pegged to the countries currency which is not the thing with cryptocurrencies and of cause with AML/KYC requirements too.

Do you actually believe that any other government, especially like the U.S., don’t want total control over money? Plus, no, it won’t be advertised as something not to pay large fees to VISA/Mastercard. It would be advertised as “safe”, “secure”, and what everyone loves = “fast and convenient”. But what it actually is is total control over YOUR money by bypassing the current financial system.

This is the beauty of democracy: they can't. Or better said, they cannot do at the levels China would do.
And for US, the agencies already have the control they need. In US the bank will do all you want if you have the warrant. And the agencies will also not move a finger without a warrant. So there are no real gains there.


Maybe, although VISA/MC are also advertised as safe, secure, fast, convenient. Then what would be the added benefit?


Of course. We're on the same page here.

There are no absolutes, I cannot say that it will happen, but no one can’t say that it will never happen either. But the actual point is, if CBDC happens, it will make Bitcoin’s narrative/main value-proposition definitely more valuable, and therefore actual value will go up.


Do you believe that they would actually do it for our added benefit?

No. It's not what we have been talking about. We were talking about how it's advertised. And the advertisement you've been telling about is no different from what we actually have.
I'm not sure why you need re-explained what we have been talking about...

That’s PRECISELY the point! Because they don’t care if there is or if there isn’t a benefit for you. Plus this isn’t some “product” for payments like PayPal. It’s an actual attempt to bypass the banking system by the Federal Reserve. It might actually not need “advertising”, because from their standpoint, CBDC issued by them = U.S. Dollars.

So funny that CBDC requires KYC while people can still use tons of cash without ID, no problem there. But if they feel so strongly about CBDCs, how do they feel about Bitcoin? What if they introduce something similar, requiring KYC every time a person uses Bitcoin as payment. And, I guess, KYC's already required on exchanges in the US, right? So while Bitcoin can bring more freedom to people in other countries that have milder regulations, people in the US might not feel much difference. Except, of course, if we consider that it's possible to use Bitcoin without KYC (but might be illegal), whereas a CBDC developed under the restrictions might have something in the way it's made and works that requires KYC.

I already knew that is how it is going to be, so I am not surprised at all about this. The government never liked bitcoin because of how they were not able to control it, decentralization and how users are able to to maintain privacy with it. They have laid out so many complaints on why they would want to stop people from making use of cryptocurrency, going as far as to say that it is being used for illicit activities only.

And I have read about the CBDC’s that were released in other countries, such China and Nigeria and how these things worked, KYC was required and the government will have every information about you. So it’s not going to work out for sure. At the end People will abandon CBDC, that’s the truth.

Stablecoins are not a new thing, they have been around for long and moreover they are different from CBDC. Although CBDC might be paired to Fiat, it is not CBDC, it is not controlled by the central banks. CBDC is known as Central Bank Digital Currency, so it is not stablecoin and is different from USDT, DAI and the rest of them.

It is just something else on its own, and moreover there haven’t been much of CBDC that I know of yet, apart from Chinese digital Yuan which no one is even talking about any longer, nobody cares about it this time around. According to my research there have been other CBDC’s that were released in the past but were not a success.

One thing for sure...when the government will say something like this and like that, there is more chance that it would be the opposite that can happen. And it would be true with how they are viewing can happen with Bitcoin, cryptocurrency and stablecoin once there is already an operational CBDC in the USA while other countries are now in advanced state of introducing the same. CBDCs are just digital version of the fiat money...nothing more nothing less. Bitcoin is definitely more than being a digital money...its features and characteristics define Bitcoin and we already know what are they and we like them.

The main difference between bitcoin and all CBDCs that are currently being developed all over the world is in the purpose they serve. The main purpose of bitcoin is to be money that can be used both as a medium of exchange and a store of value which in turn implies non-intervention from any authority that always tends to distort the purposes money should serve. Bitcoin is immune to intervention, so it can functions as money perfectly. The main idea of CBDC is to be a government's tool to manage the economy, to be the means to more effectively control and surveil the population who engage in economic activities, to be the justification of the very existence of government control over the economy. Economic activities are very inefficient in the absence of money, but if money is fully controlled by a single entity, it gives this entity enormous power over individuals wanting to engage in voluntary-agreed transactions. The thing is with the introduction of an invisible third party to each transaction, these transactions become less voluntary and more forced because the meddling with money makes it less valuable and subject to gradual depreciation. People increasingly transact not because they want to, but because they have to spend their money before money loses value even more due to the government's intervention. Bitcoin is valuable because it allows people to think for themselves, it allows them to avoid being forced to spend their savings that are gradually falling in value.

That’s laughable. CBDC is NOT a cryptocurrency.


That’s my point, CBDC, digital currency network that can censor you and will censor you, WILL make Bitcoin’s narrative and main value-proposition 100x more valuable if CBDC is widely adopted around the world.

CBDC is a digital form of fiat currency being regulated by a central bank. The increase in the value of bitcoin doesn’t depend on CBDC as bitcoin has its own goodwill in the  market. 

I believe, like me, some people truly remain not to understand what Bitcoin was designed for, or what its point of existence actually is. Other people, seem to have forgotten. I know it’s an asset for a great many of us, BUT by design, it might not merely be a “Store of Value”, or a mere “Currency”. I believe it’s more, and hopefully we plebs will continue to learn it together.

Maybe, not in literal meaning but the circumstances that may possibly surround the boost in CBDC usage. Once people understand the difference between CBDC (centralized) vs. BTC (decentralized), they may possibly choose BTC for this nature. So though there is no direct relationship between CBDC and BTC, there are possible repercussions if there is high usage of CBDC in the market. Those who are not yet into BTC, will also go to BTC once they discover it after their CBDC experience.

So what happens when CBDC's are adopted, and everyone is then dependent on the government to monitor digital pixels that appear on their banking portals, and Bitcoin is then banned by these governments? What happens if the governments won't allow CBDC's to be spent at online exchanges, or be sent to merchants that do business with Bitcoin? It's not a good idea to have your finances tied to an entity that can lock you out on a whim. The strategy for government with CBDC's is to create mass adoption, and then shut out competing crypto currencies.

We don't have a crystal ball with which to see the future but the most likely scenario is that there will be currencies with which to escape state control.

Arms trafficking, drug trafficking, prostitution (where it is illegal) will not cease to exist. The normal scenario is that Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies such as Monero will continue to be used, and in the unlikely event that the states manage to get rid of them, there will always be an alternative for illicit activities (and for those who want privacy) such as using banknotes from countries where physical fiat money is still used, gold coins and other metals, etc.

Fiat currencies are adopted globally but they help people to realize the hyper inflation and recognize value of Bitcoin. CBDCs are better than Fiat currencies because it is more convenience for people to use. However, it is worse than fiat currencies in another aspect because it will result in worse inflation. Government will have more powerful tools to trigger more inflation with CBDCs.

Fortunately, think of Bitcoin and worse inflation by CBDCs, people will more realize the value of Bitcoin.

It is an interesting journey in my opinion. First they pretty much ignored bitcoin as a passing thing that won't grow beyond a fraction of a cent, then as bitcoin continued growing and 1 BTC was worth more than 1 USD they realized this unique currency is now worth more than their centralized shitcoin so they started to slowly panic.

Then came the FUD campaign against bitcoin to try and prevent its growth but it was already too late as bitcoin was already worth a couple of hundred times more than their centralized shitcoin ($200 to $1200 in 2013) so the FUD campaign grow bigger too.
This FUD campaign turned into strict regulation and KYC storm on centralized exchanges since they were naive enough to think hitting exchanges would hit bitcoin!!!

After years of losing the battle against bitcoin as it gained more value against their centralized shitcoin (ie. fist such as US dollar) they decided to fight fire with fire but were dumb enough to think bitcoin is bitcoin because it is using blockchain technology so they started planning to create a copy which was yet another centralized shitcoin.

So here we are, CBDCs that are the same centralized shitcoin as fiat.
All it does is proving how successful bitcoin is and how afraid the corrupt and obsolete those in control of centralized money are.

They can try to discourage people from using it through ban it, but it wouldn’t stop the network from chugging along, and it wouldn’t stop Bitcoin from being a censorship-resistant cryptocurrency. The people who truly need it WILL use it.


That then proves that the point of this topic is right.

That’s going to be their main narrative on why CBDC is “better”, and why everyone won’t need any other digital currency, or any other medium for cashless payments. “Speed, efficiency, and convenience”. “Millions of transactions per second”. “Future of payments”.

So, entice the visitors to become your guinea pigs and make sure it works before you start forcing the rest of your populace to use it?  Sounds about right.   :D

Because, let's be honest, once this thing is fully up and running, people in China probably won't have much choice in the matter for long.  It'll start with 'nudge theory', but will swiftly become outright coercion.

There's still no released statement yet on how the central organization plan to let CBDC work and what are its mechanisms, but I agree that it would be in par with how the physical fiat money works in a digital wallet or banking. Since CBDC would be basically a digital counterpart of fiat, it would behave I suppose in the ways fiat does. But one thing has a big chance to happen, when CBDC will be released, the KYC process would be mandatory for the users to track their transactions and for the government to keep track their information for AMLA purposes.

If ever this happens, those people who are very particular with anonymity will surely sought way to continuously be in the shadows. This will pose a good opportunity for bitcoin and crypto in general to blossom. This could pave way for increase bitcoin usage for those who are not really fond with KYC process.

That’s what they did, and that’s what I said earlier in the topic, because it was already known that China would unveil their CBDC to the world during the Olympics, yet I believe there was a poster who didn’t believe it. Haha.


Using it itself would subject you to the protocol’s pre-programmed rules. Break the rules, wallet disabled. The value of Bitcoin’s narrative/main value proposition goes higher.

sounds familiar.. i wonder why you ever thought up that those interested in new payment systems use coercion to try getting people to use the new system before its really ready to work for all use cases(that its being falsely advertised to achieve)...  

you know. coercion, like:
trying to limit utility growth of a legacy currency system
promoting a 'nextgen' thing as a/THE solution to legacy systems [instigated] limitation growth problems,
using people as guineapigs with coercion techniques..
bribe them with cheap fee's
make promises of its success rates that dont materialise

but yea, probably best to make sure the thing works flawlessly first in all circumstances and not only in utopian best use-case scenarios, before promoting the hell out of it and calling it a replacement for a legacy currency system

A CBDC will strengthen the most fundamental argument of Bitcoin. It looks like a CBDC is nothing but a more powerful fiat in terms of monitoring and tracking of transactions. So it is more threatening in terms of our precious right to privacy. With a CBDC replacing the old fiat, we will become less and less free. We will see an invasion of our lives where privacy is being killed by the government. The case of Bitcoin will become stronger than ever.

A CBDC will boost rather than diminish the popularity and use case of bitcoin, as people quickly realize that the CBDC can have its supply inflated at will to serve monetary goals, whereas bitcoin has a finite supply and can never be inflated arbitrarily. With widespread use of CBDCs, users would feel more comfortable buying or investing in decentralized cryptocurrencies - thus increasing their value over time.

Bitcoin wins with the growth of CBDCs.

Partly that. But the absolute biggest reason why is CBDC users can be censored/prevented from making transactions, wallets can be locked, savers of CBDC don’t truly control the money in their wallet, and therefore anything in their wallets is NOT truly owned by them.

Central bank digital currency is basically the same exact thing as a traditional currency we use today. It is a digital version of fiat money which is controlled by the bank.. People nowadays do not buy bitcoin because it is digital.They buy it because it is volatile and more people used it as an investment. It is also used to purchase anything (goods and services). Some countries have already started using bitcoin as a medium of exchange. More people has became rich with bitcoin.And I think, thats the reason why people keep choosing bitcoin because it is more valuable than CBDC.

It's just a shame that most people won't figure that out right away.  I'd hope that if people were left with no choice but to accept digital money because physical cash was being gradually phased out, they might look at Bitcoin right away as an alternative.  But human nature seems to suggest they'll have to have a bad experience first before they consider other alternatives to what the government are pushing.  And it's not like Bitcoin isn't short on plus points.  Aside from the lack of frozen funds, there's the lower inflation, real-world identities not necessarily tied to transactions and other benefits. 

We can see that value proposition already, but for others, the realisation will come too late.  I'm pretty sure there will come a time, at some point, where CBDCs will be the death of centralised exchanges because the central bank can simply block all fiat payments to and from them.  It would be so easy for them to do and I can't see any reason why they wouldn't if the option is there and they see crypto as a potential threat to the dominance of "their" money. 

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Nice try.  Take your butthurt to another thread plz.  Preferably the one that was created for your benefit (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5380215.0).  You know full well that conversation doesn't belong here.

people in china prefer to use wechatpay and alipay (both payment apps has over 1bill users each) because using visacard/mastercard come with a 2%/4% fee, where as the wechat/alipay are 0% fee within their ecosystems and 0.1% to withdraw out of those apps

you will find with any payment system when they start to raise the fee's people try to find a new payment system to use thats cheaper
thats even the same in crypto economy

people in europe/america moved away from 'topping up' debit cards and shifted to paypal when fee's went up, then when paypal fee's went up they shifted to venmo. then bitcoin. and now altcoins/altnets.

the reason people invest(asset class) instead of spend(currency payment) bitcoin is because the fee's have made it less useful as a daily spend payment system. there are many people tirelessly trying too hard to change bitcoin to be less useful as a payment system for daily spend.

---

addressing the coercion/propaganda stuff.. hinting at stuff like these words

the whole media narrative that chinese government controls all currency, are watching everything, everyone has to use one system.. is FALSE..
hints that humans have bad experience using alternative to government options is also false. people prefer to do favours for others in services of kindness and favours,.. doing favours, bartering, paying someone in food/alcohol(in other ways) for helping each other out IS HUMAN NATURE

---

its western propaganda from visa/mastercard/western politics getting angry that they cant grab 1.4 billion people in a community, so they want to present the "china is bad/broken" narrative. much like some altcoin/altnet want to say bitcoin is bad/broken..

as for the narrative that china is the most surveillance place.. um no. false again
based on camera's per city:
Beijing, China – 1,150,000 cameras for 20,896,820 people = 55.03 cameras per 1,000 people
Shanghai, China – 1,000,000 cameras for 27,795,702 people = 35.98 cameras per 1,000 people
London, England – 691,000 cameras for 9,425,622 people = 73.31 cameras per 1,000 people

yea at first glance it looks like "china is bad".. but look at the camera's per population.. its actually london that is watching more people

based on camera's per physical square mile
Delhi, India - 1826.58 cameras per square mile
London, England - 1138.48 cameras per square mile
Chennai, India - 609.92 cameras per square mile
..
Shanghai, China - 408.49 cameras per square mile
..
New york, US - 193.72 cameras per square mile
Beijing, China – 181.49 cameras per square mile

beijing is not even in the top 14 based on cameras per square mile, heck even NY has more cameras per mile than beijing

now why would western media and western controlled payment services like visacard not like china and want to present it as controlling. whilst unsurprisingly, visacard want to control the eastern market.. hmm

the pretence that china has only 1 payment system and its 'controlled by government' is false narrative/propaganda
its actually that there are many payment systems available. but only one of those many are controlled by government(unionpay)

there are MANY payment systems and methods in china.
alipay, wechatpay, tenpay, QQpay unionpay, jdpay, applepay, bestpay, huaweipay

.. company tencent (offering services in the form of tenpay wechatpay, QQpay) is an multinational technology and entertainment company that does gaming, movies and payment services. its not "the government"

Put him in your ignore list. I put him in mine after reading that debate topic. What a charlatan, he’s merely another anti-Bitcoin troll who simply wants to spread lies, and disinformation for the newbie-readers. I will give him my precious time if I am only in the mood to troll the troll. 8)

CBDC is essentially an upgrade of fiat, issued based on today's technological developments instead of using physical fiat. Yes, people will keep buying bitcoin because its price is higher than CBDC and Bitcoin price will continue to increase and demand for owning bitcoin will increase as CBDC will be inflationary and regulated like fiat.

The best post about CBDC :)
https://twitter.com/Bitcoin/status/1493808277771022336
"The prime purpose for which elites want CBDCs is so they can turn your money off."
Many countries invest huge budgets in these projects. What needs to be done so that people refuse the services of banks?

That truly is the absolute point. If only an anonymous developer built a robust, resilient protocol for a decentralized, censorship-resistant, permissionless cryptocurrency. I believe that would be a very very valuable form of money. 8)

For the record, my comments aren't specific to China.  They just happen to be the ones on track to roll out their CBDC first.  I suspect all governments, if they get on board with the switch to digital money, will look for ways to pressure people into using it.

Believe me when I say I'm fully aware that the UK government can be just as totalitarian as any other at times.  I would be equally concerned if they were trialling a similar system here.  Fortunately, given the utter shambles of 'Dido Test and Trace', I'm fairly confident the government is too inept and gormless to accomplish something on a technical scale of that magnitude.  The UK should be safe from CBDCs for at least another decade, probably longer, because we're simply too fucking stupid as a nation to elect competent people into positions of power.   :D

CBDC in practice I don't think will affect anything much because KYC/AML will almost certainly become mandatory. CBDC will not protect the financial privacy we need because the government or certain parties under the auspices of government financial institutions will continue to monitor user balances "in  transactions and out transactions" so that investors who need privacy are really uncomfortable.

CBDC will still be the same as other fiat systems that we have used online such as online banks or others, only the government is trying to balance it with the development of the digital financial system but not to compete with bitcoin. Just as the OP thought, CBDC will only make bitcoin more popular in society which will increase its demand.

CBDCs will be created by governments so they will be centralized and KYC will be mandatory. They are broken in finance and privacy for the people. Governments don't create things which will give the power back to their citizens. They create CBDCs to control their citizens better by following flow of money better.

CBDCs will help governments to reduce cost of creating new money supply. Printing money from physical machines and factories will require more resources than minting new supply from the air. No factory, no thing, just change code for their CBDCs and mint more. It will be worse for citizens and central finance system but is good for Bitcoin which was created by Satoshi Nakamoto to fix it.

Yes, Definitely.

Bitcoin is the first cryptocurrency ever to exist with its PoW mechanism with the sha256 algorithm using blockchain technology to store its data as an open-source ledger. And working according to specifications mentioned in Whitepaper by Satoshi Nakamoto.

CBDC will be a much more altered version which only controlled by Central Authorities. Everything will be on blockchain but still against bitcoins specifications.
Bitcoin's very important specification is anonymous accessibility within the network.

CBDC cannot compete with Bitcoins fundamentals. Ultimately it will increase the price of Bitcoin.

It’s WHEN they get on board, and make everyone to switch to CBDC.

A central entity that can track, and control where “your” money can be spent, is not truly your money. Money has to be useful for Mr. Heroine Dealer to be truly good, hard money.

Haha, yeah OP got some point here. Though they will try thousand ways to take out bitcoin from the face of earth they will always fail into the same. They just don’t digest that bitcoin have already been digested into the system and it’s just irreversible system now.

All they are now doing is, trying to have their own system so that they can get the attention towards it and away from usage of bitcoins. Similarly other countries trying with unban with taxation.

CBDC is nothing different than this.

Many of those who are anti-bitcoin are currently looking for ways to bring down the popularity of bitcoin, but all the efforts they have made so far have not succeeded at all, I think the creation of cbcd will also not affect the development of bitcoin in the future and perhaps it will further strengthen the development of bitcoin later, because in my opinion the system used by cbcd is no different from the one owned by bitcoin, and instead i think cbcd fully adopts bitcoin into their system, some sources say that cbcd also has advantages such as privacy, easy to use, secure like cash, has universal access, cross-border payments, and peer-to-peer usability, and aren't those advantages by bitcoin also has? ;D

i understand windfurys preference of ignorance rather than research. but for others who have no clue like windfury..
lets run through how the chinese CBDC works from what has been said in media and news and announcements and reveals from china
dont worry ill keep it simple and ill even translate it to things people understand

the e-rmb(aka e-cny)  works like this

---

TL;DR (for the wall of text haters)
example shows alipay is the sole manager of customers served under alipay, alipay is the sole holder of the real life info and only reports suspects to PSB(public security bureau(translate: sec/fintrac/police))
not the PBC(public bank of china)
and not PRC (peoples republic of china('government'(translate: congress, president, ministers,parliament,senate))
yes the PSB if making an arrest can pass the info they get to the department of justice. and such.
but its very much like the american system where by there is no default access at the first entry. its more about disclosure after suspected by the commercial service

also the system allows wallets that have no requirement of KYC. but a low limit of value allowed without KYC

---

now for those that can read more then a paragraph without needing an image or a voice over narrating it for them:
ill explain the network typography and then the finer details

there is no 'mining' or blockchain.
there is just a smart contract (translate into certain peoples language: altnet 'funding locks' and 'commitments')
im highly simplifying things to not confuse people  

where by the PBC(public bank of china(treasury)) has a reserve that it splits out to 7 commercial services, where they have a 8 of 8 multisig reserve

and this is an example of the reserve
ECNY1q1111 (PBC) Y7,000,000   ->   ECNY1q1251  Y1,000,000 (QQpay)
                                                       ECNY1q1351  Y1,000,000 (Alipay)
                                                       ECNY1q4251  Y1,000,000 (Tenpay)
                                                       ECNY1q2351  Y1,000,000 (Wepay)
                                                       ECNY1q3451  Y1,000,000 (HUAWEIpay)
                                                       ECNY1q2451  Y1,000,000 (HainanBank)
                                                       ECNY1q4351  Y1,000,000 (Xi'anBank)
knitpicker note: ignore the amounts(yield is not important) they are just demo easy numbers to show the splits
knitpicker note: ignore the public address designations i just made them up in a sequence for easy demo flow
knitpicker note: sequence for easy demo flow
ECNY1q simply to resemble the bc1q or the ln1q prefix of known address formats
ECNY1q?? = main 8 entities EG 11=PBC   13=alipay


all 8 entities have this and watch each other to agree on the splits of outputs and sign to share signatures that it all totals correctly

when all 8 signatory's have signed. the new version is treated as the funding lock
if all have the same txid(sha of txdata) and all sign same txid. its then set as being locked and treated by all as the ruling funding lock

below that is the intermediary accounts (translation factory channels/masterhubs)
EG lets take Alipay

ECNY1q1351  Y1,000,000 (Alipay)   ->   ECNY1q1241  Y83,333 (QQpay)
                                                           ECNY1q4241  Y83,000 (Tenpay)
                                                           ECNY1q2341  Y83,000 (Wepay)
                                                           ECNY1q3441  Y83,000 (HUAWEIpay)
                                                           ECNY1q2441  Y83,000 (HainanBank)
                                                           ECNY1q4441  Y83,000 (Xi'anBank)
                                                           ECNY1q1329999  Y350,000 (Alipay KYC Level 2 app)
                                                           ECNY1q1319999  Y100,000 (Alipay KYC Level 1 app)
                                                           ECNY1q1309999  Y50,000 (Alipay KYC Level 0 app)
knitpicker note: sequence for easy demo flow ECNY1q13? = alipay  ?=kyc level of app EG 0=0

8 main entities(7 commercial services and PBC) see and sign this as alipays 'reserves'
the PBC only sees and accounts and signs for the funding locks down to this level (payment service holdings reserves).
note: the 3 KYC level app accounts are not customer level. they are service level apps of reserves for all customers reserves combined

note: the 2 levels above is what has been publicised as the "2 tier level" that the PBC is privileged/authorised within.

---

below explains what the commercial services do outside of the 2 tier system

now continuing with the alipay example
alipay offers 3 wallets services/apps. (KYC2,1,0 shown above) to customers
allipay self manages things happening below this level within the KYC2,1,0 accounts. (PBC doesnt see or sign for these)

KYC0 is where there is no ID required. but it has limits on maximum a user can send/receive without needing to upgrade to the next wallet
payment would fail if someone tried to send more than is allowed in the account(available channel liquidity)
KYC1 that does require some KYC. and KYC2 needs full KYC but at KYC0 there is no human name linked for alipay to get, save, store, record, report

imagine in this example that the KYC0 of Y50,000 was a 'funding commitment' for 10 customers with a $800 (Y5,000) limit
ECNY1q1309999 Y50,000  -> ECNY1q1309001 Y5000
                                           ECNY1q1309002 Y5000
.. and so on for 8 more outputs
knitpicker note: sequence for easy demo flow
ECNY1q1309 = alipay kyc level 0 and alipay ownership of channel 9 reserve

all 10 customers can see the reserve 'funding lock' of the alipayKYC0 and see their public address(identifier) is allotted 5000 but they do not know the human birth certificate names of each other in the KYC0 funding lock.. neither does alipay, nor PBC nor other commercial services
nor do they know how much of that reserve(liquidity) is spent or not spent of that allotment

because the actual account balance (translate channel commitment) the customer spends within is not the funding lock reserve
and not broadcast around

---

now
imagining customer ECNY1q1300002 already has a 2500:2500 split of the reserve with alipay
imagining customer ECNY1q1300001 already has a 3000:2000 split of the reserve with alipay

ECNY1q1309002  Y5000  -> ECNY1q1309999 Y2500 (alipay KYC LEVEL 0 wallet)
                                         ECNY1q1301002 Y2400 (customer X02)
                                         inflight in Y0
                                         inflight out Y100 (to ECNY1q1301001)

where recipient sees in their account
ECNY1q1309001  Y5000  -> ECNY1q1309999 Y1900 (alipay KYC LEVEL 0 wallet)
                                         ECNY1q1301001 Y3000 (customer X01)
                                         inflight in Y100 100 (from ECNY1q1301002)
                                         inflight out Y0
becomes
ECNY1q1309002  Y5000  -> ECNY1q1309999 Y2600 (alipay KYC LEVEL 0 wallet)
                                         ECNY1q1301002 Y2400 (customer X02)
                                         inflight in Y0
                                         inflight out Y0

where recipient sees in their account
ECNY1q1309001  Y5000  -> ECNY1q1309999 Y1900 (alipay KYC LEVEL 0 wallet)
                                         ECNY1q1301001 Y3100 (customer X01)
                                         inflight in Y0
                                         inflight out Y0
knitpicker note: sequence for easy demo flow
ECNY1q1309999 = alipay kyc level 0 and alipay 'withdrawal address(should they close account) back to the master kyc0 reserve
ECNY1q130100? = alipay kyc level 0 customer ?= 1 or 2


note: the recipient does not see the whole balance of the sender. all it sees is the inflight amount and the message containing whatever the sender wants to say as an explanation/payment reason EG "coffee from your girlfriend")

---

in KYC1 and KYC2 wallets (demo sequence ECNY1q1311001 ECNY1q1321001 respectively)
appears the same but with higher limits. whereby the they still use the 'sequence' ID. but separately alipay also has secure hidden  database linking
ECNY1q1311001 = 'joe bloggs, home address'..
ECNY1q1321001 = 'joe bloggs, home address, tax id number, social security number, etc'..
other people dont get access to this separate birth name database, real life info. nor do the PRC at all.. nor do the PSB have access to this whole database*

its upto Alipay to do their own AML/CFT checks on the payments of its customers to look for suspicious activity. and report it to the authorities.
this is not to the PBC (public bank of china(translate fed reserve)) this is to the PSB(public security bureau(translate SEC/fintrac/police))

when a customer signs up for a KYC2,1 alipay takes the customers KYC checks it with PSB if they are a resident or have a work/tourist permit(visa) and a non-criminal. if it passes as no suspicious warning alipay allows them the higher limit use of the upgraded wallets.
at the registration part alipay does not tell the PSB the abstract wallet ID associated with the KYC. they just ask 'is joe blogs on any warning lists

---

*
later if a suspicious payment is made. then alipay report the abstract(demo sequence identifier) payment to the PSB with a explanation of suspicion and if requested for more information by PSB for the KYC of the user.. then alipay hands that to the PSB
but only the KYC of the suspect. not all customers.

but through all that. the PBC(public bank of china) is not aware of any names of customers
but through all that. the PBC is not watching every payment of customers
but through all that. the PBC is not demanding knowledge of suspicious activity of customers

but through all that. the PSB(public security bureau) is not aware of any names of customers accounts by default from the start
but through all that. the PSB is not watching every payment of customers
only in events of the PSB receiving a suspicious activity report of a abstract payment. will the PSB request KYC and can only ask that of the wallet payments of the KYC 2,1 level. where as the KYC0 level dont provide ID

I don't think anything will change fundamentally if central banks issue their own cryptocurrency. The end user does not care how they transfer or receive dollars or other currency. If you are a bank customer, then you have already given them your documents and gone through the KYC process. And to use CBDC, it would probably be enough to be a bank customer.

Biden seen issuing crypto oversight exec order next week
https://ph.news.yahoo.com/biden-order-on-crypto-oversight-expected-next-week-source-says-173452499.html?
Explain what is happening in the US. Do they also want to create their own CBDC?

this EO is not to ban/chastise or prevent crypto.
its just an EO to make a report about what could/should/shouldnt/cant be done in the future

It would require your CBDC wallet to go through KYC, and this doesn’t work like fiat-cash/paper money. Cash/paper money, anyone can receive and spend it, no one can monitor it if I buy Heroine, pay for sex, or gamble with friends. CBDC is used through a centralized network that is monitored, with your identity exposed, and all your transactions known to the government/central bank. If they decide they don’t like where you spend your money, you can be censored, or cancelled. If this becomes the presiding form of fiat-money, how much more valuable will Bitcoin’s main value-proposition/narrative become?

Any online banking involves all of the things you describe. When you shop with your visa or mastercard, banks and the government, represented by the financial regulator, can easily track all your transactions. So I don't really understand the difference between CBDC and regular online payments. In both, you are a customer of a bank with KYC. Or am I missing something besides the fact that CBDC is on a blockchain?

They may not be on a blockchain. People tend to assume they will be, but it remains to be seen.

The main difference is that online payments aren't the only option at the moment.  Once you've done KYC/AML with the bank, you can withdraw funds in cash and do what you want in near complete privacy.  This option will likely be phased out as CBDCs become prevalent.

As for any other differences between current online payments and CBDCs, I guess you'll have to wait and see, because we can only speculate right now.  It may even vary by country, depending on how each nation implement theirs.

I really do not see the resason why bitcoin would need this crap. I mean, just try to understand it, isn't this just another form of regulated currency? How different is it from fiat? The only difference I see is that it is even worse than fiat in terms of anonymity. Bitcoin is already doing good as it is. At least despite it not having full anonymity, it still gives us good privacy to an extent. I don't know about y'all but I really am not afan of this CBDC. Having said so, I really don't understand why people, specially you which is a crypto enthusiast that has heen here for years would like CBDC.

So you are suggesting that once the CBDC is in place, central banks will give up cash? I don't think that will happen because every country has its own national currency, and with the creation of CBDC it is not clear who will be the main issuer of this digital currency. So at the moment I don't see any difference between the existing online banking system and the creation of new digital currencies. Of course, eventually cash will disappear, but I don't think that time will come quickly.

As long as I read the news about CBDC mostly they use Blockchain technology. They use Blockchain as a base, but provide modifications so that they can supervise the circulation of their money. Many countries are starting to plan CBDCs, they seem to be starting to worry because crypto as a transaction tool is growing rapidly. They are worried so as to make CBDC as a counterpoint. But it seems that it has not been able to lure crypto users because cbdc prifasi is not as good as Crypto.

Exactly, they won't complain although in the long-term, they're going to ask questions when they start feeling the effects of the implementation, to be honest I don't like CBDC because they're the same as a normal fiat although an electronic one and I don't see how that could be a good thing for bitcoin.

This is good for the people that supports bank and KYC but not good for the opposite type of people. I am curious if what effect are they going to feel? They already agreed right from the start and I do not think they will complain at the end but the longer this runs the more satisfied their going to be because banks will try to improve their service to give their costumers a best user experience.

There is already paypal and paypal is also a digital version of fiat although it does not run on the blockchain. That might be the reason why they are not contented with it but they come up with this CBDC idea. I think the only way it can bring positive effect to BTC is when CBDC users discover btc. Their world will be smaller now that both runs in blockchain technology.

The central bank would issue it.  The clue is in the name.  Central Bank Digital Currency.  Instead of printing physical notes and minting physical coins, they'll just blink some new tokens into existence.

Next in the list, Jamaica is getting close to the lauch of its CBDC. Among the Caribbean nations already CBDC is being launched by Bahamas and Eastern Caribbean. Now Jamaica have come up with Jamaica Digital Exchange which is termed as Jam-Dex. It has got a tagline No Money, No Problem. I don't find this tagline relevant to the cryptocurrency. Anyhow more and more CBDC are reaching the market, but this hasn't made any big changes in the market on the positive/negative side.

Jam-Dex CBDC (https://cryptonews.net/en/news/finance/3178097)

Thank you for making that point. I have also been asking myself this same question since the government started introducing CBDC. CBDC was also introduced in my country, and so far I haven’t really seen the need for it. Whenever I open my online banking app, I usually see an option that says to link my CBDC wallet to my bank app, which doesn’t seem necessary to me, since it is still the same Fiat.

So, what’s the need for having a CBDC when it is still that same Fiat that we’re all making use of. Same thing that the digital currency provided by the central bank is offering, is the same features that we see in online banking, so it’s totally unnecessary for the government to be creating a digital currency.

You’re missing something in that with banks you will have some consumer protection, you can withdraw cash from your account, and the Central Banks/Federal Reserve don’t have direct access to your account. In a CBDC network, your money isn’t truly your money, which would also increase the value/demand for a cash/paper money narrative.

I don't think the money in the bank account is yours either. In my country, the state can easily seize all your accounts and deprive the money from you. For example by classifying you as a terrorist sponsor or something like that. So it turns out that only cash can belong to you.

Of course, both the US and the European Union have already announced that they are starting to create their own CBDCs. True, they will be able to launch them only around 2025. You need to be prepared for the fact that in the future almost every state will have its own CBDC. After all, CBDCs have better characteristics compared to non-cash payments of states.
We don’t yet know exactly what impact CBDCs will have on cryptocurrencies. But it looks like they will create some competition for crypto as a means of payment. After all, some in exchange for the protection of states will sacrifice confidentiality and anonymity.

It’s not, but you have the freedom to withdraw cash from your account, which is truly yours. In CBDC, you hold it in CBDC. Plus saying that doesn’t help the case for CBDC, it makes it worse. Which is why, HODL Bitcoin as a hedge. It’s also not just a market hedge, it’s a hedge in case the politicians and the banksters make bad decisions.

If you believe CBDC is OK, and surrendering control is OK because “it will be the same system as the current banking system”, then I cannot convince you.

funny part is seems some people are drinking too much of the western media propaganda kool-aid

their view on things are not from experience of ever travelling to china, nor researching about chine.. ..but from things they read from other people that never went there.
they view china as some country where everyone has to use a unionpay app (the government owned app) where no one can touch paper money and how the government is already watching everyone. .. (gotta love the racial propaganda machine.. by this i mean love it the way you love a mother inlaw)

its funny because on soo soo soo many levels, these propagandist followers "research" falls flat to actual fact.

lets take certain peoples last "assumption" that in china people cant withdraw out of current apps. and wont be able to withdraw out of a CBDC..
you can actually withdraw out of CBDC because guess what. people will want to go on holiday and get foreign currency. they are not stuck their whole lives only using 1 currency/app. yep real life fact. people do change currency. alot.
also CDBC is not de-facto the only medium of exchange of china now, nor in the future. not just because people can change to other countries fiat. but because other payment services exist.. ill explain this later

now lets take the propaganda about the lack of freedom of paper money thing spouted about for years
any tourist going to china does not need to sign up to some chinese silly app and expose life history just to get some travel money. they can go to any local currency exchange in their local city ask for RMB and yep they get handed RMB..
how is this possible.. well, this might shock some..  china does actually use paper money.. .. are you shocked?.. well you shoulnt be

now lets take the shamefully wrong "one government app" propaganda. .. china (country..(not government)) actually has MANY.
and guess what else. they are apps of private corporations.
alipay, QQpay, huaweiPay, wepay, tenpay to name just a few.

as for the propaganda thinking that even right now china's CBDC is a closed system where the government watches everything.. pfft. again lack of research

yes the central bank creates tokens out of nothing for its mega reserve.
yes there is no 'mining' for citizens
  - to create/earn CBDC tokens via supporting the network/mining
  - meaning no 'bank account savings interest'
yes central bank 'smart contracts' out allotments to several commercial private banks and payment services.
yes the commercial private banks/payment services then divide up their allotments into accounts
  - cross connected between each other
  - downstream to their wallet service providers/agents/ bank branch locations
  - downstream to customers at different levels depending on certain things

its these private payment services and banks that then manage their customers accounts. where the commercial services monitor for any red flags and then reports only suspects to authorities. (much the same as how western countries get MSB's to monitor its customers)

as for the KYC stuff. the private banks/services have 3 levels of wallet apps EACH. the lowest level has a basic facility of liquidity (low total balance allowed) where by the customer does not need to give any KYC information. but if they want any more liquidity(total balance allowed) they have to upgrade to a different level wallet that does require KYC.

the KYC is NOT stored at the central bank level but at the commercial service that serves the customer

I believe the best current example of what CBDC will be made and designed for is what Trudeau is currently doing, but CBDC will make it more direct, and more efficient. Don’t let disinforming/gaslighting trolls mislead you that everything will be “OK” under a CBDC system.

This is what should happen and on paper it is but you are so naive to think this is really happening in reality. You should travel to Canada these days to see how there is no need for anything "suspicious" for the government to monitor every single activity you have 24/7. For example people went on Facebook and liked any post that was remotely related to the protests and in less than 24 hours they had a visit from their local law enforcement, some of them got their homes raided. All for liking a post that the government should not even be able to monitor!

fun fact faccebook is public.
fun fact the campaign organisers DO have "separatist" rebellion/radicalisation tendencies. research the 'wexit' connection to the campaign organisers
its not that random people 'liked' a trucker protest post.
its that they liked a post related to the political radicalists other motivations.. (where by the radicalists also organised a trucker protest)
and yes i see how you said 'remotely related to the protest' so i know you know what they were actually 'liking' because you know it was not about the truckers


fun fact if the truckers(those without radicalised tendencies) organised the fundraiser drive and the protest, the situation would be far far different... the trucker protest was not the problem. the anti-gov radicalism of 'wexit' separatists was the problem

the actions were not due to the trucker event. it was due to the radicals that were involved that had other motivations

EG reading your many posts on different topics related to the canadaian situation where you have repeatedly mentioned "government, government government, trudeau.."

it seems even you are more leaning towards wanting a government rebellion, where even you sound like an anti-gov radicalist.  rather than care about truckers 'rights to work'

so if someone knocks on your door. its not because you have sympathy for the truckers not being able to work. its because you sound like a rebel that likes the separatists agenda.

---

with that said. bringing the conversation back on topic.
yes people can apply to courts with reasons to believe that certain other people might be doing something criminal. and even before a trial is even triggered to judge the suspects guilt. a court can actually at the pre-trial stages make orders to prevent suspects from absconding, destroying evidence, intimidating witnesses, removing/replacing or otherwise spending assets linked to certain activities, and the judge can order businesses to monitor such funds/assets.

its not a bunch of members of parliament that do the monitoring. its the private corporate businesses offering the payment service that are requested to monitor suspicious activities and report any that are found

The Government and the Central Banksters’ new narrative, and everyone will love them, because “more security”. Shitcoins would be more valuable than CBDC-arcade-tokens, simply because users can spend them with more freedom, anywhere they want.

as for certain person trying to quite a reddit, which quotes a news media behind a paywall
here is a more direct source to the bank of england statement
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/speech/2021/june/tom-mutton-pre-recorded-keynote-speech-the-future-of-fintech-digital-conference

programmable money/payments report from the omfif
https://www.omfif.org/2021/07/cbdc-systems-should-focus-on-programmable-payments/

well.. take way the jargon. and translate it into a altnet language certain people know
funds locked into certain channels(accounts/apps) can only:
route to certain hubs/nodes connected along partnered nodes.
funding limits of what the channel funding lock allows
lock time restricted to certain length channel(account) can remain open
CLTV limits how long a payment can remain valid before it expires

thus limiting spend-ability against wider range of channels outside the limited routes/agreements available

wallet software has different "autopilot" features that can automate payments or trigger events when certain messages are received between wallet software

..
if anyone is actually interested in real research and not the tin foil anti-gov speculation propaganda. certain people above spout

look at the BIS developing the M-bridge, which will become something like a 'brics' counterpart of the 'amero' IMF
BIS is already linking China, Hongkong, Russia, United Arab Emirates, Thailand, and the UK is working with BIS too

(personal joke: all they need is switzerland to join in and they can have 'chrust', pronounced trust with a lisp)

It is not really a matter of you are losing your privacy because the government would be requiring information from you before you are able to access the central banks digital currencies. Although that can be part of the reasons why some people would avoid it, because they would like to keep their privacy and not give the government too much of access into their daily activities.

But, I think one thing that would make people not to be interested in the CBDC is because it doesn’t make any sense. The government are just fighting to create their own cryptocurrency so that they can stop Bitcoin, but it is not making any sense at all.

actually. most of the CBDC are aiming for the same thing. 3 different levels of wallets whereby you start at a low limit account and it asks for no human life ID. and if you want to extend your limits, then you upgrade the app to the next level and provide ID to get more facilities


its not even about stopping bitcoin.

its actually so they can have a cheap payment system that just does its job without the need of bank managers and IT guys and security staff..
basically get rid of the physical bank branches and they can save billions a year, get rid of the bank branch staff and save billions a year, get rid of the security staff and IT guys maintaining servers and save billions a year.
have a multi sig smart contract approach and avoid any malicious staff member defrauding their employer, by having all payments secured by digital signatures. saving millions a year

the cost/maintenance and auditing and accounting of the SWIFT network costs alot.
imagine if it just became as cheap as running a few nodes per country.

its also that swift settles in 48hours+
where as CBDC settles in 2-10 seconds

funniest part is there are certain people in this topic that dont like blockchains but do like altnets of smart contract design, but what they do not realise is that CBDC is also a typology that more resembles their favoured altnet.

its not even a system thats even trying to be bitcoin

it has got some advantages over current bank accounts. and its not 'government monitored' at every level like some tinfoil hat speculators say..
seems people need to try to learn about CBDC. becasue its not going to go away. (unlike some peoples altnets and altcoins can)
..
the way i see it. central banks/governments will always have their own currency. whether its paper or digital. its their 'product'.. 200 years ago it was gold, 600 years ago it was something else. there always was and has been some form of a government scheme even as far back as kings and pharaohs

bitcoin will remain to hedge against it. even if there are some in this community trying too dang hard to call bitcoin a bad network to advertise another network that works just like a CBDC will

Not all of it.

You are just trying to justify the dictatorship. The "fact" if you have ever bothered to do some research, is that it had nothing to do with radicalism or even any anti-government move. The cases are simple as liking a photo of truckers protesting mandatory jabs some of them on private profiles.

lol why would I even care about internal politics of Canada? It's just funny to me to see regimes of countries that talk so much about freedom of speech and human rights brutally violate both of them in suppressing people protesting mandatory jabs or those sympathizing with them!

moved response to different topic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5386025.msg59333765#msg59333765)

Plus the gaslighting-troll posts of “it’s just propaganda”, but under a centralized CBDC system, do CBDC holders have the freedom to donate their CBDCs to help the truckers? Or will they have their wallets locked? Those truckers are not criminals. Listen to the troll and learn, the hard way.