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So my client and I are arguing which he orders a logo design from my service. I can't tell you the company name, but this is a new casino, and he (using his project account on this forum) approached me like a week ago. He asked the price of logo and ANN thread design. I gave him the prices, and also the combination price if he decides to purchase both designs at same time. After the discussion, he decided to just purchase the logo only, and holds the order for ANN design. Anw I was bit surprised when he, as a new casino representative, was trying hard to negotiate the price, so I asked upfront payment and he promised to pay it in 2-3 days (but I still haven't received it). After thinking about it for some time, I decided to trust him and started the work.

During the process of logo design, he suddenly pmed me saying that he has created the logo himself, and ordered me to just shift my focus on the ANN thread design. At that time, the logo design was almost done (~95%) and I had no idea what his message means. So even though I got that message, I still sent him the logo design after it's done. In the next day, I got his reply saying that no need to create the logo design and I'm expected to just prepare the ANN thread design. Of course I rejected that, since the payment sent for the logo. I admit that the works took a quite longer time than expected, but it doesn't mean that he can change the agreement himself because I also didn't exactly mention when the design will be ready. Though, it still doesn't change the fact that he pays for the logo only.

I would like to ask, if he still keeps insist to order me creating the ANN without additional cost on it, or doesn't pay the logo, is it harsh to put negative feedback on his profile? I know it's normal to sue a company who steals our work, but I'm not sure about a company that does not paying something they don't need although they ordered it before. I just don't want to ruin the reputation of some company without solid proofs and prosecutes.

He (or they) obviously didn't follow initial agreement and deal you made with him, so you could give him negative feedback for that and for wasting your time.
It's very amateurish for him to say that he create logo himself, so I would sure like to know about that information when dealing with casino or company like this in future.
Even neutral feedback with this info and link to this page would be good to have, and let them build their own reputation.

i think its very clear who is in the wrong here, its you, you want to get paid for your work? what? are you crazy? /s

if he doesn't want to pay you for the ANN and the logo, its your right to leave negative feedback since that was not what you agreed on, and you shouldn't worry about ruining the reputation of some company, if they are solid they won't be doing shit like this in the first place.

He paid you for the logo and you agreed to create the logo so that is the deal here, if he decided to create the logo by himself after intimation of your deal then its obsolete so he didn't follow.

I don't think its necessary to leave negative feedback for now unless they keep pushing you to create ANN design with no payment.

Since the initial deal you agreed was for the logo (which you provided) and not the ANN, I don't think that is wrong if you leave him negative feedback if he keeps insisting on creating ANN without additional payment or if he doesn't pay for the logo.

With how you described his behavior, it looks like we might have another one of those fake it till you make it casinos which usually end up badly.

Unfortunately, some people don't know how to do business. Indicate that it is too late for him to change his mind  and that you expect him to pay in full for ANN. Otherwise, don't even press a button for them :) If they continues to resist, leave it negative and close the conversation.

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Thanks guys for your responses, I appreciate it a lot. Yeah it shows his unprofessionalism side on that thing, and it might also indicate that this is not the first time he doing this. I was just unsure to take firm action on it because the cost for this work is not that big. Though, a little thing could affect the reputation of a company.

For now, I'll wait his reply to my latest message and if he doesn't respond nor ignore my message, I might leave neutral feedback as @dkbit98 suggests so everyone could be aware of him and the project he is about to launch. Further step such as negative feedback could be taken if there is no solution between us.

Was it unprofessional behavior? Yes.
Was it a scam? No.
It happens. Casino has their representative in the forum and most of the times, they are not core team member. Maybe that's where a mistake happened. Or maybe a misunderstanding. But this was unprofessional for sure.
I wouldn't call for a negative tag here, instead a neutral feedback what I consider as best here.

I thought you've already have a lot experience in freelance business because you will find a lot type of customers, including the one who you're never expect. Never try to start first before there's a final deal, when you both agree with the project but you've not receive the upfront payment, it's still a temporary deal and we still don't know what the next will happen. It could be he will negotiate the price more lower or even shift to other designer since they think the price isn't fit for them.

When you're start the project without upfront payment, you're already take a risk.

Not the kind of attitude you expect from a representative of a casino here, he deserves to have neutral feedback for being unprofessional and this will have an impact when he creates an announcement thread, he should resolve this issue first before creating an announcement thread as a player it will not earn goodwill from the community if he shows unprofessionalism on how to deal with old members of the community.
I'm sure if he is roaming the forum he will find this thread, and he can still correct or defend his action.

I don't know if you've made a final decision yet. But I just now saw your topic, and I would like to share what I would do if it were me (because I also work with design).
It's really frustrating, the person doing the work and then changing what was initially agreed, only makes us spend more time than necessary.

You gave him the price for the logo and the ANN, right?
But the price you gave was based on doing both jobs, right?
So now do an ANN price adjustment, not exaggerating of course, and see what it says. The justification for the price adjustment is simple: you didn't create the logo and this involves more work to develop the ANN concept.

Did you tell him you started working on the logo? Because if you told him he should pay upfront, the client couldn't have known you'd almost be done already.
It sounds like you shouldn't have started working on the logo yet, if that was the agreement.

From the information you've shared: yes!

This sentence is unclear. If this is how you communicate with clients, I can understand how they misunderstand you. Can you share the full unedited communication you've had with this client?

I am curious about his reaction to the logo design. Did he like it? I would suggest that you try to explain to him that it is unprofessional and unfair for him to walk away from the deal like that, especially after you've already put your effort and time into creating the logo design. Especially considering that the money is not that big, as you said.

If he is still interested in having an ANN made, offer him a logo and an ANN design as part of the package. Or adjust your price for the work you have done so far and make sure to get paid upfront for it.

You do not have to leave a negative tag on his account, but I think it would be fair if you left a neutral tag on the account with a reference to this thread or at least a mention of the brand. If they are struggling with finances at the very start, the community should know which casino it is because of the potential risk.

Agreed, but OP is free to use negative tags as long as he feels harmed by his client. The agreement that was made should have ended professionally between client and OP, but when agreement was canceled by one party when the work was almost finished, then of course this was a form of client's unprofessionalism towards the agreement.

But for something soft, neutral tags are possible in this case so it's useful and good as a reference for others in the future. I hope this problem can be resolved wisely between OP and his client without unilateral harm (especially OP) because he has done the job.

That's a fair point, but even if he is not a core team member, he must be aware that anything he does would affect the company he is representing. For now, yeah neutral is better than negative.

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I met so many customers with different types, but it's my first time to face this kind of issue. I admit that sometimes I didn't ask upfront payment from my clients although they were new projects, especially casino. But everything went smooth with them, and I believed a new casino won't ruin its reputation even before its launch. However, this problem changes my mind now.

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I will make sure that he can't launch his ANN on this forum until our problem solved.

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Thanks man. It's great to see us as designer supporting each other. Yes I'll adjust the price for sure if he decided to still order the ANN, but first of all I'm still waiting the payment for the logo.

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In the beginning, I asked upfront payment, but he said that there was an issue on his wallet, so he expected me to get started while he processing the payment. Based on my personal experience, most of the time I got paid as promised.

Got it. I did think so but just unsure.

These are some part of his messages;


Sorry I can't reveal the whole parts since there are some info and details in the messages that unethical to disclose.

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He didn't even look at my designs draft since he already likes the design he has created himself. Thanks for the suggestion, I actually have worked with many companies that have limited budget, which I even didn't charge any dollar on a few of them. But obviously they were not casinos.

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Yeah I'm still trying to find a solution with him, but it might take time because of our different active time.

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Thank you guys for your great responses. Yeah seems it's too harsh for negative feedback, so neutral would be fairer. Eventually, I won't do that for now and will still keep trying to find a good solution between us. If it leads us nowhere in the end, I'll let you know on this thread.

I happen to have a good idea of what you charge for services and it's not that much, so for a casino to try to save a few cents by asking you to start a  design then back out, would make me a little skeptical of playing there.

If they asked you to start, from your reply to loycev they did,then they should pay the fee even if they don't use the design. It's a scam period! 

This doesn't leave any doubt: you got the go-ahead, so they should pay for your work.

This always makes me doubt the person. Crypto is very easy: you get your wallet, you make a payment. If they can't make a payment, then why are they placing orders?

We often see friends who have expertise in the field of design & logos, sometimes they don't receive payment and the designs & logos are also not taken after everything is done, there are also those who do not keep their promises, it's one of the challenges and risks for design & logo experts, many feel unappreciated for unprofessional reasons.

@jayce, marking (client) in red I don't think is very elegant, as many neutral people might say, but going forward lest it happens a second time, maybe you can make the rules a little stricter for your (clients) which you think are troublesome and suspicious, I think that's what needs to be in mind to do your best so that clients feel happy and comfortable doing your services.

I'm sure out of 100 orders 1 or 2 clients don't go smoothly, for that you need to maintain your good name in the design & logo section without having to damage the problem client, you have a thousand ways to prevent harming you in your service.

There are two points that enter my assessment after reading this topic. First, he broke the deal (ordered a logo then canceled by telling you to design the ANN thread). Second, don't appreciate your efforts that have worked on completing the initial order (logo) which is already 95%.

There was another possibility why he suddenly changed the deal and insisted on not paying the extra money. Firstly, it wants to test you and secondly there is a possibility that the company is not serious about their project.

Sorry if I involve myself in this matter.
Regarding negative or neutral feedback, I leave it to you as our other friends have said.

Its your call of course, but I don't see why it would be too harsh to leave him negative if in the end he refuses to pay you for the logo you designed. Its not your problem that he decided to change his opinion in the middle of it, created the logo by himself and now demands that you create something else for that money. Btw, he still didn't send the money for logo/ANN, right, still stalling?

I mean, you can leave him neutral as well with clear explanation so everyone doing any deals with him is warned, but the way I see it he basically tried to cheat you and for that negative is not too harsh. After all, if they are serious casino they wouldn't even bother with such trivial stuff that could endanger their reputation before they even started promotion here. Market is swarmed with shitty casinos that barely have enough money to start the business and based on his behavior your client might be one of them.

Ikr, it's just weird to see a casino doing this kind of thing. If the situation doesn't get any better, I'll reveal the casino details so everyone could be aware of it. I'm still considering this as a misunderstanding issue.

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I'm not a fan of speculations, but perhaps he saves his coins on some exchanger and at some point, he broke the rule and his entire balance locked. Actually I dont think that he keeps all of the balance in a one bag since casino is a big business. Though he doesn't explain the exact reason but if he really getting into that situation, I don't mind at all to wait, as long as he agrees to add the cost for ANN if he wants one.

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Yeah YOSHIE, actually I don't mind to wait the delayed payment a little longer although the client agreed on upfront payment in the first place, since I consider my clients as friends. But it bothers me when the client changes the agreement while the work has been proceeded. Hopefully he and I can find a solution that not hurting anyone.

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That makes sense, thank you for the feedback. No need to sorry since I open this thread here so everyone can write his opinions on the issue.

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I'm still waiting his response, and yes, the payment as well. I would know his further explanation about the issue, and if he has an intention or not to get us a good solution. If he doesn't, then I'll leave a neutral feedback so everyone can see it :-\

You should've asked to be paid before starting. You shouldn't have sent the logo unless paid. He changed the deal he's at fault. If he wants to work with you he'll give further explanations. It's a new casino he'll be in need of designers, he'll be back.

I'm sure he is now aware of this issue, if he wants to proceed to create an official announcement here in Bitcointalk, he will reach out to you and will sort things out and will try to come out with a win-win solution between the two of you, but if not the core team will choose other members or sign up with a new account to create an announcement and will just tell the community that they have nothing to do now with the guy you strike a deal with, the first option is the better one, we'll just hope that he'll pick that option that is to reach out to you and fix the issue.

For the future you have own your rule about upfront payment above 70% until 80% if some one or companies ask logo design from your service, actually when finding with account level under member rank negotiation, they will not care when getting negative reputation later. I am sad heard your problem and later never have any deal without upfront payment when first time you accepted logo design.

I have the same cases with you but in real problem, I got 500 T-Shirt order of politician logo design, they only paid under 20% upfront payment and after all finishing we loss contact and their order not take after their politician loss in campaign.

although he/they came back and fixed the problem with the OP, and all ended well. but everything clearly shows an unprofessional way of doing business. even they have just started badly. I'm not sure with management will get loyal partners and members.

if only the OP published the account, I'm sure a lot of forum users would have ignored it when they released the ANN thread.
I know everyone must have made mistakes. and it can be fixed. but in business, trust is very important. ignoring it would show the team's unprofessionalism. and a project like that has a bad future.

Thank you for the suggestion guys, yeah I hope we can solve the issue together, and wouldn't happen again in future.

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Damn that sucks, imagine the resources you have used for those shirts. Things could be harder in real life especially if your client is a 'big' person. I hope you have recovered the loss.

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I agree with you, but I also believe on second chance, especially for a big project. After getting so many responses and supports from all of you, it helps me to rethink the decision of leaving negative trust. And hopefully, it could make the client to be more aware and professional on everything he does for his project.

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Thank you again guys for all of the responses, I'll lock this thread and might reopen it again if I have an updated on it.