Bitcoin Forum

Hello there,

As I was driving earlier, this thought came through my mind. I've been accumulating Bitcoin for quite some time now, and at some point eventually I'll have to withdraw it in fiat, at least some of it. I'm not sure when that time will come, and I'm definitely not selling for anything below $50,000, but that's another story. However, I've always kept my bitcoin away from exchanges, and I prefer that it stays that way for obvious reasons that have been discussed numerous times in the forum.

Not only do I want to avoid exchanges but also banks, which is currently the most convenient way to withdraw money, but if I were to move funds to a bank account, they'd get taxed at 24%, which is a huge percentage. I've also thought about Bitcoin ATMs, but the majority of them here require some sort of KYC and feature expensive fees, although they may still be a better option than bank transfers. Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

If you don't want to use a bank or ATM to exchange bitcoins for money, you don't have many options. A P2P trade would certainly be the easiest in such a case. But it is not easy to find a suitable trading partner. Either way, you have to be careful not to be scammed or robbed in the process. Therefore, one should always be careful. Above all, you have to be careful not to get counterfeit money.  :)

There are a few options for exchanging bitcoin for cash, but each has its own risks and drawbacks that need to be considered.

Peer-to-Peer Transactions: This can be a reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash, but it requires finding a trustworthy buyer and conducting the transaction in person.

Bitcoin ATMs: While some Bitcoin ATMs require KYC and have high fees, they can still be a better option than bank transfers. You can find Bitcoin ATMs near you through websites like Coin ATM Radar.

Cryptocurrency Exchanges: While you prefer to avoid exchanges, some exchanges offer the option to withdraw funds in cash, either through a direct deposit to a bank account or by withdrawing cash at a partner ATM. However, this option may still involve paying taxes and dealing with banks.

Over-the-counter (OTC) Trades: Some OTC trading desks allow you to trade large amounts of bitcoin without having to go through an exchange. You can find OTC traders through websites like ex-LocalBitcoins (offline now) or through referrals from trusted sources.

Regardless of the method you choose, it's important to exercise caution and do your own research before making any decisions. It's always a good idea to consult a financial advisor or tax professional for guidance on the tax implications of your specific situation.

I guess you don't have any options but go to the old and traditional way - P2P. But the risk is there as well specially if you don't know the other party, so it's going to be very difficult to find one specially if we are talking about thousands or even millions of dollars involved in that kind of exchange.

Or probably just break it down, instead of looking for just one person to do transaction, then maybe 4-5 will do and make it like every other day.

Bitcoin ATM too will charge you a lot if you do transactions, so not just KYC but a chunk of money is going to be deduction in your end.

Yes, one option for exchanging Bitcoin for cash in hand is through peer-to-peer (P2P) transactions. However, as you mentioned, this may not be convenient or practical for everyone. Another option is to use a cryptocurrency exchange that supports cash deposits or withdrawals. Some exchanges allow users to deposit cash into the exchange, which can then be used to purchase Bitcoin. Similarly, the Bitcoin can then be sold for cash, which can be withdrawn as cash in hand through a physical exchange location. Not sure where you are from, but if trading Bitcoin is legal in your country, there should be physical exchanges where you can buy and sell cryptocurrencies. The best thing to do is to ask your local community.

The question is where are you.
There are many people trading in Las Vegas or Miami or NYC for cash. Not so much in North Dakota.

Take a look at https://kycnot.me/ for a bunch of non KYC exchnages

https://agoradesk.com has the cash locally option.

You also have a few other options depending on your location.


You don't have to say where you are, but if you are in a more rural part of the world vs a big city your options will be more limited.

-Dave

Cash in hand?  So it means physical transaction.
There's no way to choose a P2P in a personal transaction or in a Bitcoin ATM machine.  These are your primary options and face consequences if you really want to.

This also depends on where place you are located, it might in your place Bitcoin was accepted in many department stores, and you can exchange your Bitcoin or ask the business owner.

But in online payment transactions, (wired or bank transfer) there are a bunch of DEXs or P2P exchanges that don't ask for KYC.
It's already provided above.

There are a lot of exchanges right now that offer Peer-to-Peer (P2P) transactions but most of these exchanges require a KYC process.
Since Localbitcoins is shutting down, there are few peer-to-peer (p2p) platforms now.
You can also achieve P2P transactions from your local cryptocurrencies/Bitcoin community if there are some willing to do the transactions just be careful and verify the buyer/seller because for sure you will transact physicall here.

First of all, thank you for all your replies, I'll try to be as brief as possible.
I'm situated in Greece. Unfortunately, Bitcoin transactions aren't as popular as in the U.S so it's unlikely that I'll find someone willing to trade in person. On top of that, I'm in a rural area, away from major cities reducing my chances even more.
My main concern is to avoid having the money deposited into a bank account. If it's coming from an exchange, there's a decent chance, if it's a high amount, that you'll be asked for further details. I'm not quite sure about splitting deposits from P2P transactions, though. That way, it won't direct back to an exchange, right?
I'm not exactly sure but I've read that some Bitcoin ATMs abroad don't require KYC, I might be wrong though. The ones currently available have a 6% fee for selling plus KYC. It seems like the easiest option to avoid banks but they still ask for your details (not sure what kind of details though).

It's pretty crazy to see a 24% tax, is that real? because in my country crypto tax is only imposed on a centralized exchange and not on every user.
When you want to avoid centralized exchanges and banks, I'm sure you can avoid them all. Maybe you can avoid centralized exchanges with P2P transactions with people who accept crypto exchange services, but then the funds will be transferred to your bank account, obviously you can't avoid banks. Currently we still rely on centralized exchanges and banks to convert to fiat, but if bitcoin adoption takes place in your country, you can immediately use bitcoin as payment provided someone wants to accept bitcoin payments.
and for Bitcoin ATMs, it does use KYC and transaction fees are quite expensive.

There's always a trade size limit on each exchange, it's a good idea if you read first the terms.
In Bisq here's what you need to know.
https://bisq.wiki/Account_limits

Have you tried Binance P2P?
There's a limit per trade size and you can read it here (https://www.binance.com/en/support/faq/what-is-order-limit-on-p2p-trading-daca57c29e954c7f9209257a9cb92ad7). 

I tried this option without linking to my bank account but I used an app that supported remittances upon withdrawal of your money and don't need a bank account.  It's called GCASH in my country, from your crypto convert it to fiat via p2p trade locally and send it to the app and then withdraw your fiat to any remittance center.  I dont know where you come from but if there's an app have a feature like this in your country could be helpful.

Not 100% ideal but there are options: https://agoradesk.com/buy-bitcoin-using-cash-by-mail-with-eur-in-greece
It's going to come down to when and how much.
Thinking about it and planning NOW is probably not really going to matter.
In the past few months both localbitcoins.com and LocalCryptos.com shut down.
Had you asked this question 4 months ago the answer would have been somewhat easy.

Now..... not so much.

So thinking about what you may be able to do next month, next year and so on may not matter since the plan may no longer be available....

-Dave

Try OTC or p2p. I'm sure there would be a lot of people that want to buy your bitcoin with cash. So I think it's the best way for you.

The best way is through P2P exchanges like Bestchange or Localbitcoin(but it was already dead in a couple of months) Paxful or shapeshift but most of p2p exchanges will start to shutdown went they start to do KYC on their platform and its very hard to do in the meantime. Exchange that offer P2P service like Binance or Bybit Need KYC first before doing any kind of transaction.

If you have small amount maybe there is seller on this forum but when it comes to big chunk of money its different story

@OP is asking a way to achieve 100% privacy when convert Bitcoin to Cash, but most people answer it through DEX and P2P platform. Well those exchanges are only protect you to submit KYC, but you're still leave a trace because you give your bank account or e-wallet etc. it doesn't make you achieve 100% privacy, DEX and P2P platform only help you to maintain your privacy, not hide it from the government and chainalysis.

This is tricky and illegal because you're trying to broke the laws on your country, I think except direct P2P and spent your Bitcoin to bought a stuff without submitting KYC, then sell the stuff for cash, there's not many good way.

there's got to be someone out there who wants to buy BTC and privacy concern individual and wants to buy in cash so there is no KYC as well. finding them is just a needle in the haystack.

transaction in person with cash on hand seems like a robbery ambush waiting. it's risky but probably meeting in public and close to a police station will lessen the risk.

Peer to Peer transaction is a good way to go for you and you can pick good P2P platforms without KYC. If you use their services, you must know how to choose likely good trade partners (old accounts, good reputation, good trading behavior score ...) and know how to mark your trade as Paid, how to start a dispute as well as make sure you always record your trade procedure in video format for dispute when you need it.

Current list of exchanges without KYC (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5414539.0)

Personally I recommend Bisq https://kycnot.me/exchange/bisq

It is impossible to hide from the government if they are particularly or specifically looking for you, people maintain their privacy so governments, chainalysis and other people would not be able to trace them, but i think we all know that if the government go on a manhunt for you they are going to find you; but rarely do people have their government looking for them, so maintaining privacy is still very important.
You need to know someone in person who you trust, you can exchange your BTC with the person, but you must look at the disadvantages and risks of selling BTC that way, if you are satisfied, then you can go ahead with it.

Why is P2P highly unlikely? My very first few BTC was actually directly from a person (not counting faucets and rain from casinos which amounted to very little anyway) and my very first "transaction" was also P2P.

I don't do it anymore these days as I hardly sell and it's actually easier with an exchange, but I don't see why I wouldn't.

How much do you have anyway? 1 BTC? ;)

@Ultegra134, what you want is possible (for now) in a country that you might want to visit for touristic reasons ;) There are physical exchange offices that do not require KYC up to a certain amount, which was 2000 EUR last year, and I think they have now reduced that amount to 1000 EUR. The fee in such exchange offices is around 5%, which is not small, but still less than what you would have to pay in your country.

For more details, you can always contact me via PM and I can give you more detailed instructions.

Hello, Ultegra134. We live in the same country. Could you please elaborate on why you'd get taxed by 24% (of the profit, I suppose)? As far as I'm concerned, there is no official tax framework of cryptocurrencies in Greece. Therefore, whether reporting 24% of the profit or not, it's still in the judgement of the tax collector.

I recommend you create a topic in the Greek board.

You can try to find a local bitcoin seller in the same city as you and contact him if you need his help selling bitcoins. I think there must be someone who can help you to send fiat money to you after you send your BTC to him. But you really have to know who the person is and where he lives so you don't get scammed. Maybe you can find people who can act as third parties who will help send money to you through social media or others so you don't have to use any exchange. It's just you and him. Even though it may be difficult to find at this time, you should still try it, especially if you are in an urgent situation requiring fiat money.

I knew I had to visit you but didn't get the chance to do it this year either! Sucks.
You're actually correct; it's 15% tax on declared profits. However, I haven't bought Bitcoin myself; I've started accumulating from scratch; wouldn't the whole amount get taxed since it's basically a source of income? That's why I thought it'd be 24%. While there isn't an official tax framework for cryptocurrencies yet, withdrawing a few thousand euros to my bank account wouldn't look too good, which is my main concern.

It depends on what you need it for.

For small purchases on Amazon etc., you can buy gift cards and vouchers. Or just stay below your CGT threshold.

If you need to sell a large amount, e.g. to buy a house, selling BTC for a truckload of suitcases filled with cash may be tricky. And even if you do, the taxman may one day ask you where you got the money from to buy the house with.

In some countries there is no CGT on crypto gains. In Europe, I reckon Portugal is one of those. If you want to cash out a large amount, obtaining a tax residency in such a country, then selling your BTC for euros (or real estate) might be an attractive option, but it's better to consult a tax advisor to make sure everything is above board.

In my country the threshold is 40 EUR/transaction for a total of 120 EUR/year.
Between this tiny amount and the amounts needed to buy a house there are plenty of use cases for wanting to sell Bitcoin for fiat without KYC.


You could have been mining those coins long ago. Or you could have been mining altcoins with your computer and sell for bitcoin.
It's not mandatory you've actually worked for them, especially if you already have a day job...


If only the bank is your concern then a crypto card may do the job, just they need KYC and you may not be able to withdraw more than 2-300 EUR/day at the ATMs. You can, however, use them for daily shopping. Just (again) yeah, they're KYC unless you go for the very "underground" anon cards AlexPCS is selling.

Recently I have opened up one good channel for myself and that is via my remote employer. However, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to do it because you will need that kinda employer first and second trust between you guys. Now whatever I have in crypto I always used to withdraw it from the exchanger here. Since the budget was finalised back in 2021, India started imposing 30% flat tax on the crypto transaction along with 1% TDS. So this automatically took me in the slot of 30% making my crypto earnings worst and nothing used to be in my hands. Over period of time I got very close to my boss overseas and now they are literally friendly an always take up my bitcoins whenever I send it to them. Once I do they will send me payment via WISE or other WIRE facilities thus it just goes to my normal income slot and I dont get charged crazy 30% slot. I hope everyone will find such companions soon. Its more or less P2P only but with trust and known guy.

In the UK you don't pay CGT on realized gains of up to ~£12,000 / year and if your sale transactions total to under 3x that you don't even have to declare them.
That, however, is going to be halved from April this year, and halved again from April 2024.

If you want to buy something for more than 40 EUR on Amazon or similar, you can buy a gift card on Bitrefill or Paxos and even get a discount for it. There is also a way to pay with BTC for flights. More and more merchants are accepting bitcoin payments and LN is becoming more common too.

Yep, and this means that we better get prepared for the worse, since we cannot really rely on the threshold value. It's simply bound to become - sooner or later - too small.
Let's focus on the more productive ideas.

P2P could be dangerous, you know. You never know someone's intention and not to mention someone totally stranger. They could harm you in many ways if they are from some gang or something like that. ATM can be a better option or online money transfer. You don't have to do any physical interaction there. Life comes first instead of money. Be sure to be safe. There was an incident in India few months ago where he was killed for disclosing his crypto HODLing.

Excuse me, I didn't quite understand what you meant. I've accumulated this sum of bitcoin through a variety of sources. I haven't bought a single one. Theoretically, isn't this income something that should be declared? I'm talking about the whole amount of coins.

I'm mostly in favor of splitting some earnings between a bank deposit, others to be withdrawn at cryptocurrency ATMs, and others on a crypto card such as Binance's. Staying 100% off the radar seems impossible, unless you have someone trusted enough to meet in person, which isn't generally advisable with large amounts of money.

Your best option would be a P2P transaction, however in order to do this anonymously you will probably have to pay a high fee, but it will be way smaller than the 24% on taxes you will have to pay so it is worth looking into it, however if you do not really need to touch your bitcoin for a long time then it could come the day in which you will be able to use your bitcoin directly to buy what you want locally and your need to convert your bitcoin to fiat will disappear.

You are right. P2p transactions in person or face to face is the best among all the options that you mentioned because there is no need a KYC for this and there are no hidden fees or extra charges. The best part is the price of the BTC that you want to buy or sell can be negotiable. You can put a higher or lower rate than on what is the suggest/standard rates on the market.

I am only curious on why you said it's quite unlikely. What do you actually mean by that? Are there no Bitcoin traders available nearby? Or are you scared about your security, something..? If that is the case then you can just go back to the option A which is by using an exchange. You aren't storing your money there for a long time anyway but you will just withdraw them right after transacting, so no worries about it getting hacked or frozen later on.

I think they should be declared, even though that is often a debatable subject.
What you will pay comes down to the national policy.
In Romania I can just say it was earned through trading and will be taxed 10% capital gains tax and depending on the amount another 200-600 EURO on top for some other taxes. Not the same as income tax. Income tax is about 45% in Romania so it better not be :)))

If in Greece it's 15% than I don't see any reason for you to pay much more than that.

Banks are another touchy subject. Most do require proof of funds, some block accounts etc. Can't give you much advice on that front I'm afraid.

To be fair I am lucky because I know and trust a guy I call when I need to buy some FIAT with crypto. Mainly does P2P trading for a living and his services were/are used by many people I know. So would trust him even with bigger amounts, even if my average is a few hundred euros once in a full moon...

You gotta get a guy ! It's hard, he may not live close... but is worth it in the long run.

Also changing your financial residency at some point may be worth looking into but consult a professional for more info.

What I meant is that it's only you who knows where you've got those coins from and whether it's by working for them, or mined, or you've bought them long ago when KYC was not everywhere. And I don't think that anybody would invest too much of resources to find out if your declaration is for real or it's hiding a bit of details here and there.
Hence if you declare them as income then you'll probably pay income tax and if you declare them as capital gains (from 0 since you don't have receipts), then you'll pay capital gains tax.
That's how I see the things.

So, OP, you're question is basically how to avoid tax and not get in trouble.

You're from Greece, which means the EU, you're also not selling till $50 000 and if we start from the presumption it will be quite a bit of money I would advise you to not try even a p2p deal in cahs in Greece and this is the same for everyone else, not try it in your home nation and not in your hometown.
Get a cheap flight, arrange for a p2p deal in Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, or whatever as close as possible because of costs, and meet there with multiple! again, multiple traders split the sums. Or you can try finding some ATMs that still have limits for like 500E till they require KYC and visit 10 of them a day, sending each transaction from a different address so they don't red flag it.

And, be careful what you do with the cash after! :D


It doesn't matter how you accumulated it, the tax will be based on what you choose FIFO or weighted average and what proof you have you have bought that amount at x price.
And no, it's still capital tax gains, it will be 15%.
So if you have proof you've bought coins at $1000 and you sell at $50 000 you will pay only for how much you sell 15% of the 49k difference.


The 45% is the tax plus health tax plus pension fund plus whatever else is there, right? Not just flat income (wage) tax?

It won't be suspicious if he/she has a business or high paying job to cover perhaps a huge amount to enter his/her account if ever he will be selling some of his/her crypto assets. Declaring it would be somewhat foolish especially if this industry is not having a wide support. It happened to my friend. Since he's unemployed his account was questioned when a huge amount was deposited mid last year which forced him to move to another one but decided to hide half of his welath under his brother's name which is a businessman, with consent ofcourse. If this is what is meant of declaration then think twice. But if it is just verbally sharing to other people, I see no other problem than to be at risk of being targeted by bad guys out there.

The best option is to look for offline exchangers.The first thing to start with is an exchange for a small amount to check how the service itself works.It is important not to change everything at once, but to carry out this procedure in several stages.The second important point is do not go to the deal alone, it is important to ensure your safety.And the third point is not to forget to check the money you received,they may be fake.

I would've suggested using P2P since you're biggest enemy here will be the banks but you mentioned how you wanted to stay away from exchanges as much as possible so yeah. But in totality you wouldn't really have much options left if you were to rule exchanges out of your options, as you can easily take money in and out of exchanges nowadays, especially with Binance. Although honestly speaking you could still retain that sense of anonymity if you were to just withdraw money from that you need or want. You don't have to haul every single satoshi on your wallet and put it over an exchange for withdrawal, unless that's what you want. I myself have been off the radar relatively by keeping a cold wallet with me. If I find that I need to cash out a few extra bucks, I do so by transfering the exact amount I need plus extra for gas fees and I call it a day. I guess you could do the same thing as well.

p2p trade for cash on platforms without kyc is always the best option

To add to both of these suggestions, you can use a decentralized application such as Bisq. Depending on your area, there may be reputable traders who can facilitate a P2P trade. There are also similar options for other cryptocurrencies. The benefit of these platforms are their automated escrow systems and their reputation systems. You should be okay if you find a reputable trader and you follow the trade process as direct.

Now you have one more reason and you would kill two birds with one stone, even though changes are always possible, especially after entering the eurozone and the increasingly pronounced AML laws. However, look at it on the bright side, next year doesn't look so bad, and we hope that the price of BTC will then be at least 2-3 times higher than today.

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As far as my country is concerned, there is no need to risk transactions with unknown persons (if that's what you meant), everything can be done officially in the physical branches of several companies that deal with cryptocurrency trading. Again, it depends on what city you are in, but the capital and a few cities on the coast have 2-3 different options available.

Thank you for your great explanation, which makes perfect sense. Either I declare the whole amount as income or as capital gains and pay the corresponding tax. In both cases, if I decide to go that way, I'll have to choose which one is more affordable in my case.

Thank you for your detailed response. I appreciate it. Yes, the ideal scenario would be to avoid paying taxes and not get into trouble. Even if I could possibly find someone for a P2P in-person exchange, I'd avoid it. It sounds too risky to exchange a few thousand dollars in person.

The most dominating scenario so far would be to exchange my Bitcoin into a stablecoin when the time comes, withdraw small amounts from exchanges that no one would bother with, and the rest from ATMs, cryptocurrency cards, or abroad when I get the chance.

Depending on the amount of Bitcoins you possess, you may want to try OTC trade, Localbitcoins (according to some previous posters going out of business soon), debit cards by Binance, Coinbase, Wirex etc (limited amounts). You could also try to find someone locally (can be dangerous).

Most EU countries have no KYC limits of 1000 EUR with no KYC. I think there was some new regulation put in place in late 2021 to limit that. Before it used to be 10 000 EUR. I remember transacting like that with no KYC in 2019.
I also used to buy Amazon gift cards first at bitpanda exchange and then using bitrefill.

As for 1000 EUR limits it's really easy to withdraw more if you want because the limit is imposed on a single transaction, not a single person. The ATM cannot identify whether it's you again or another person. I've been withdrawing 2 or even 3 times the limit on more than one occasion.

Very unfortunate OP because whether we like it or not, at the time we use institutions that are governed by governments like banks, we are entitled to pay taxes for them. The other option is to use a P2P platform to save taxes but the risk is too high and might it lose your funds if got fall into scammers.
Maybe it was not good to say but I think we need to face the reality that it was impossible by now to escape from taxes or even from KYC. But for me, it was not a big problem as long as my money is safe to arrive in my wallet. If the use of exchanges is the best and safe option, I don't hesitate to do it.

Your title is wrong: you're not looking to withdraw Bitcoin, you're looking to sell it.

Only 24% tax? I wish I could pay that little!

Apart from the exchange itself, have you considered what you're going to do with shitloads of cash? The main reason for paying taxes is to be able to legally spend your money. If you have a bag of money "off the radar", you'll raise questions when buying a car/house/jet, and (depending on where you live) you could get in much bigger troubles than just paying your taxes.
If it's €1000 in cash, you can easily spend it and nobody notices. If it's €1,000,000, you can't.

In that case, you may just get away with it ;)

Here, using established exchanges raises less questions from banks than many transactions from different people.

I know nothing about Greek taxes, but isn't this something you should have declared when you earned it?

You have no choice but to use P2P or a bitcoin ATM since this is more likely to have lower fees than if you chose the bank. Though P2P is very difficult as you need to find the right person on it and it is very risky as you are transacting huge amounts of money, either you get scammed or robbed. Bitcoin ATMs are good, but i think there is a limit on them and there are fees, but I think they are way less than the banks. But again, you are not planning to sell it right now? It is still in the future, so it is more likely you will have other choices in the future; just don't think of it just yet.

To use these cards, you have to do KYC, and if you do that, you are always exposed to the risk that your data will be shared with your tax institutions - because they can always legally request such data, and if I remember correctly, the IRS requested and received such data from Coinbase in the past. Even if you use so-called "anonymous cards" and pay for something online or in physical stores, you can be located via IP address or you will be recorded by one of the surveillance cameras that are everywhere.

Of course, in the case of small amounts, there is no need to worry too much, because the resources of government agencies are still focused on some more serious tax violations.

As far as the KYC, I would say go ahead and accept that if you are cashing out to Fiat.
* Traveling with large sums of fiat, is just asking for trouble.*
https://www.qcnews.com/news/investigations/government-seizes-billions-in-cash-from-air-travelers-without-ever-filing-a-criminal-charge/

You mentioned in a later post , you are in Greece.
https://www.ekathimerini.com/economy/1200283/no-legal-framework-for-crypto/
* According to the above their is no VAT for crypto sales.*

If you are waiting for a big win, I would suggest when the time is getting close to selling , contact a Tax Attorney for your Country 1st.
That way you know exactly what you are doing and what is the extent and timeline for any Tax implications.
* if you wait 5 years, the crypto tax laws might be totally different than now , so any current advice could be completely wrong in 2 or 3 years for you.  *

Thank you. You're correct; I'm looking to sell bitcoin, not withdraw. Wrong phrasing. It's actually 15% capital gains tax, unless I declare it as income since the amount was earned from scratch, in which case it's 24%, if I'm not mistaken. But honestly, you're right; I haven't thought about what I'd be doing with practically a bag of cash. Not only is it inconvenient but also dangerous, and there's also a chance to get away with it, just like you said. I could have declared them, but I didn't. Some were earned in the past, quite a few years ago, through various sources, while the rest are from signature campaigns in the past two years.
Yeah, those debit cards should be fine for smaller amounts, purchases and occasional withdrawals.Thank you for your reply. Yes, regulations may be completely different in a year or two, but as LoyceV already mentioned, it may be best to withdraw through a bank since having a decent amount in cash isn't quite convenient either.

If you declare it now, is there a penalty for not declaring it earlier?

To what tax are you referring to? Property tax or realized gain? 24% is nowhere close to little.

I live in Greece, and there is no KYC-free Bitcoin ATM. You'll raise suspicion if the money aren't taxed are lots, and even if you don't they'll tax you a nice 8% as commission.  :P

The total. Here, the income tax is around 37-56%, and the "property tax" is around 2% each year.

I should move :P The weather is much better too :)

Well, the first and most important thing is to buy and accumulate as much bitcoin as you can and keep it secure until it reaches some value on which you are willing to sell and gain profits. The thing is that you need to keep your bitcoin save and not lose them.

When you need to convert it into fiat currency, there will be many options. If you have millions of dollars worth of bitcoins, you can convert few through P2P and banks and move to a country like Dubai or any crypto friendly nation and cash out all without any issue of complication of legalization / taxation.

There are much better options, like the one in Germany where you have no tax if you can prove you held your coins for more than a year.
Or you can go to Poland, they have 17% income tax up to 25 000 EUR and 32% on whatever you earn above that.

56% income tax is probably one of the highest income tax rates in Europe. Usually found only in the cold North like Finland and Denmark. Their tax rates and food prices can make you consider suicide.

I'd also like to share an opinion on this matter, although it will be, probably, most unusual OP heard so far.

I understand that the percentage of 24% is ridiculous. I also understand there are no KYC-less ATMs in Greece. Working with banks is also totally not recommendable as you share almost same risks as with centralized crypto exchanges (not all risks the lattest present but still most of them).

I see some users suggested decentralized exchanges or peer-to-peer transfers.

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In case you are really interested, in Bucharest you will find three KYC-less methods for changing BTC with fiat.

.1 The KYC-less ATMs of BitcoinRomania (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5269642.0): these can be found thorough entire country but best prices are at the ones from their headquarter, which is in Bucharest downtown. You can cash out amounts up to 1000 euros without any kind of KYC and amounts between 1000-3000 euros by offering a phone number. I asked them why they request the phone number and they said that in case you lose the receipt given by the ATM, which contains the transaction internal code, at least you have a text message from them containing that code, thus if you call them you can easily receive assistance. You can perform multiple withdrawals with amounts between 1000-3000 euros or, alternatively, some more withdrawals with amounts of 0-1000 euros, in case you don't want to use a phone number. In any case, you can buy a KYC-less phone sim card at the price of 2 euros and use it with an old phone. ATMs have prices with ~10-11% lower than BTC value on CoinMarketCap. You can also show yourself in front of these ATMs while wearing a hoodie, sunglasses and face mask -- their internal software won't block the transaction although the camera is not detecting your face.

2. In Bucharest you can find a very serious guy, named Razvan_BTC (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5268873.0). He is offering crypto-fiat exchanges of any amounts, at a very small fee (about 3.5-4.5%). Razvan is very correct and I am personally granting for him. I made multiple deals with him and each time he was very correct. I know that it looks risky but if my word presents any sort of trustworthiness then you can talk to him at any time. He performs his activities also in Bucharest downtown.

3. Third option is a regular money exchange, which I found by pure chance. It is located near BitcoinRomania headquarter and, excepting money, it also operates with gold, silver, various jewelry etc. The owner (I think he was the owner) told me that at his echange you can also change crypto with fiat, for a very good fee (about 5% if I remember well). Obviously, also KYC-less. However, I have not tried yet their services.

I used services of BitcoinRomania in the past and I vouch for them, in case you feel safer inside the precincts of an actual company. Then I switched to Razvan_BTC's services and the financial advantage is huge.

A round-trip flight from Athens to Bucharest is only 203 euros (https://flights.booking.com/flights/ATH.AIRPORT-OTP.AIRPORT?type=ROUNDTRIP&adults=1&cabinClass=ECONOMY&children=&from=ATH.AIRPORT&to=OTP.AIRPORT&fromCountry=GR&toCountry=RO&fromLocationName=Aeroportul+interna%C8%9Bional+Atena+-+Eleftherios+Venizelos&toLocationName=Aeroportul+Interna%C5%A3ional+Henri+Coand%C4%83+Bucure%C8%99ti&stops=0&depart=2023-02-15&return=2023-02-15&sort=CHEAPEST&travelPurpose=leisure&aid=304142&label=gen173nr-1FCAEoggI46AdIM1gEaMABiAEBmAEguAEXyAEP2AEB6AEB-AEJiAIBqAIDuAKS-a-fBsACAdICJDBjYzdiOTZmLTM2NTAtNDRlMi1hYzE5LTIzYWIxMzkxOWFlMdgCBuACAQ) and in 1.5h you are here.

Since you said you don't want to sell under 50.000 euros, the 203 euros for plane tickets represent 0.4% of the 50.000 euros transaction. I guess it's a good deal compared with the 24% you mentioned in OP, isn't it?  ;)

In case you will ever think about this or actually take the decision, you can always contact me or contact Razvan and let him know that I introduced him to you. As a plus, you'll also have the chance to see Bucharest downtown, where the old city is also located, and which is a very nice area to visit!

I think that his point was that he's not selling at under 50k/BTC, so it's about the price, not the amount he's selling.
Even more, leaving with 50k EUR may not be great (we're not in the Shengen yet, remember?) and also depositing such amount to a bank (even more, one that's foreign for him) may rise questions.
I will add that (I remember your story on Greek airports!) if he returns too quick from Bucharest may also rise some eyebrows :D

All in all, the suggestions are not bad, but I'd do that only together with an actual vacation or at least city break. This way the price of the plane will actually worth it even for much lower amount of bitcoins sold.

I realized something else: why would anyone buy €50k in Bitcoin with cash? Exchanges are less risky, and leave a paper trail to explain your spending to taxes. Unless said person doesn't want a paper trail, for instance because it's criminal money. By that logic, it's more likely you'll be dealing with criminals than with honest people, which significantly increases the risk of a cash transaction.

Yes, I understood that.


Well, in the theoretic case when OP has BTC worth of 50.000 euros, he could also make multiple visits to Bucharest and sell for values of 9999 euros, thus he would not be coerced to declare the money. Even in this situation (let's suppose he makes 5 visits for five 10.000 9999 euros transfers), he will still save way much more money than paying a 24% tax. Five round-trips would cost 1000 euros, which represent 2% from the supposed 50.000 total amount, while the 24% tax is 12.000 euros. Still speaking in percentages, his saving would be 1200% greater than by paying the 24% tax.


I added here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5437516.msg61725380#msg61725380) a hyperlink of the story you mentioned, for everybody to understand. Excepting that, the idea of a vacation is not bad :) OP would certainly have many places to visit here, including Dracula's castle :)

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The person I recommended lives from doing this since 2012 or so. He simply acts like an exchange, meaning that he buys from you and sells to me, this is how he manages to buy / sell any kind of amounts. During a decade since he is doing this business he made a big clientele, thus he always has someone in the queue for meeting him to sell him crypto or to buy from him crypto.

So he acts like an exchange, except that deals with him are anonymous and the fees he applies are much more friendly than those used by a cash-in / cash-out ATM.

I may be wrong, but so far I did not suspect anything shady at him during the times I made dealings with him.

Not necessarily. We have a history here of money exchangers that work only with paper money, even in 2023. Getting paper in money can be more reassuring than getting it in bank (with possible questions asked) and the exchanger knows this.
Actually the fact one gets paper money in hand can make this kind of exchange somewhat safer than on a DEX because the bank may ask about the money from various (maybe very odd) sources your money comes from and you may have no good answers.

Of course, this doesn't mean your use case is impossible. Just it's not the only use case.

Thank you for your detailed response. I really appreciate it. Going abroad is something I was already considering in an attempt to combine leisure/travel with "business" when the time is right. Unfortunately, I definitely don't have $50,000 worth of Bitcoin, though I wish I did. I mentioned that I'm not going to sell for anything less than that. Although I'd still have a decent amount of money by then, I want to have a general idea of my options. The two last options sound like a decent idea because the ATMs have relatively high fees.

I'll definitely contact you if I am to proceed with any of the mentioned proposals. Thanks again.


Edit: Just read your story regarding your trip from Greece to Bucharest; hilarious that they thought you look suspicious just by your flight selection.

I confirm this.


I also second that. In the picture below is a declaration sent to Banca Transilvania by a client which was questioned how he intends to use his own money. The declaration is hilarious, yet true:

"I [...], client of Banca Transilvania, am issuing this declaration while being forced by the bank, based on some internal regulations which are NOT opposed to me, for justifying to the bank what I'm doing with my own money.

Given the fact that it's summer and it's period of vacations, being also in a period just after the lock down, I wish very much to have fun, therefore I will visit Holland (n.b LoyceV may smile here :)), where prostitution is LEGAL, for the purpose of fu*#ing some prostitutes. Most likely, before reaching Holland, I'll do the same thing in Austria and Germany.

Then, also in Holland, since drugs are LEGAL, I wish I'll smoke some marijuana, hash and I'd also like to try some shrooms.
I heard that in Holland there are some tasty marijuana cakes, which I suggest you to try as well, as maybe you'll wake up and stop coercing people to give cretin declarations based on idiotic procedures, for justifying you what they do with their own money.

Of course, since I'll have so much money, if I'll run out of toilet paper then maybe I'll be fancy and I'll wipe my ass with a few hundred euros, like rich guys do.

The rest of the money if for lending to my friends and for making useless shopping, which I'll regret later."

https://i.ibb.co/hf5YcWB/FINvU11.jpg
                    Source: Facebook

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Welcome!


Yes, I understood that. The discussion is only in perspective.


No worry, anytime :) If you want (and feel safer this way), if you'll ever come here I may assist you when you'll do the deal. You may not know Razvan and certainly not the respective exchange I mentioned but at least you know me from the forum. I am willing to help you.

Ops physical Bitcoin exchange is possible and if you look closely you will find such an exchange that offers such service and does not require verification to process the transaction as opposed to a Bitcoin ATM.

But the risk rate is high since you mentioned, you have a large number of bitcoins that you have to swap into your local currency.

Just a note of caution,  because physical transactions have not been encouraging due to the risk of losing your funds to criminals since you can easily be robbed with cash.

He does not want to use an exchange, he does not also want it to go through banks because of tax cuts and this limits his options. But how can someone exchange bitcoin without an exchange or banks. Eventhough he wants to go through a P2P and avoid exchanges, he will also need the bank to receive fiat equivalent of his transaction. I do not know if there are people who carry cash around and look for those physically selling their bitcoin. Bitcoin is more of online and internet thing.

Has this ever happened before? I'd assume that you'd have to accidentally come into contact with some shady mafia group over e.g. Bisq for that to even be a remote possibility.


But then how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.

If we think about 50.000 euros, it means 100 banknotes in denomination of of 500 euros. And yes, this amount should be declared when leaving the country. But if we only think about how to carry this amount, it's not too difficult to carry 100 banknotes, is it? They can easily fit inside a pocket.

However, since I understood that OP wants to have the entire operation done off the radar I suggested him (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5439516.msg61768332#msg61768332) to make multiple trips to the point of exchanging the money and only cash out amounts of 9999 euros, which do not have to be declared. Alternatively, OP could also plan a nice vacation (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5439516.msg61766892#msg61766892) and exchange more than 9999 euros and spend the money before returning home or return with an amount not greater than 9999 euros.

My point was that you will most likely be questioned by authorities on the source of those funds and you'd have to admit that they were cashed out from cryptocurrency holdings or risk an arrest, or seizure of those funds.

Admitting that will of course lead to even more questions on where did you obtain the crypto from, since police deal with a ton of scammers that have a modulus operandi like that.

The distribution of €500 has stopped, but even if it hadn't, spending such a large amount is almost impossible. I remember having trouble even at the gas station, which handles quite a lot of money daily. Smaller notes, such as €50 or €100 ones, would be more preferable. Bringing a ton of cash through the airport is impossible without going through customs declaration; that's why GazetaBitcoin mentioned splitting the money into a few trips. On the other hand, having a decent amount of undeclared cash doesn't help at all, because you can't actually use them for large cash purchases.

OP, I think you've asked a question that many people would like an answer to (myself included). However, exchanging Bitcoin for cash firsthand doesn't seem safe to me at all. Instead, you could start by selling small amounts on Bisq and opening multiple online bank accounts in other countries (if it's possible from your country). Alternatively, the toughest solution but one that should be a priority for all of us is to start Orange Pill merchants and create a circular economy in our areas. You might wonder how it's possible, but take a cue from the Bitcoin Jungle or the Bitcoin Lake.
In that case, if you succeed, you won't need to exchange them for FIAT.

It hasn't happened to me myself, but it has to other people. Someone here in the forum also reported about it in the german local board. Can't find the thread right now. But I can remember that he sold bitcoins for €500 and received counterfeit money. He only noticed this when he wanted to deposit the money at the bank. Unfortunately, he did not report further whether the buyer could be caught with the counterfeit money.  :(

I know that it didn't happen to you, but what's the point of selling Bitcoin in person if you're going to deposit that money in a bank? Why go through such trouble and risk so much for such a petty amount and end up with counterfeit money that will get you in trouble? S/he could have sold through a P2P exchange with a bank transfer or even a normal exchange. Counterfeit money is quite popular among criminals and secretive deals; it's not hard to spot it among a few bills, but almost impossible if we're talking about a couple of thousand euros.

Tell me about it, because I have a problem even if I try to pay with a EUR 100 bill, given that we have just entered the Eurozone and our ATMs only pay out denominations of EUR 5, 10 and 20, and the national currency was even 7.5 times weaker than euros. I doubt that I will ever see a 500 EUR bill.


This should not be a problem if you are traveling within the Schengen Area (https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-countries-list/), although I cannot say whether the procedure at airports is the same as at road border crossings where the border does not actually exist. Romania and Bulgaria are not part of that zone, and that's why things get complicated there, but if you choose another country, then theoretically you can cross the border without expecting any control.

Of course, all this is assuming that you don't act too nervous and suspicious at the airport, because such people attract attention.

Yes, that's a good question and I can't answer it either. Perhaps the person originally did not want to put the money into the account and later changed their mind.

However, there were also times when you could lose your bank account if the bank could see that the money came from selling cryptocurrency. There were a lot of cases like that, even if that hardly ever happens nowadays. Maybe the seller wanted to cover this up. That would actually be the most plausible explanation for this, because the case was two or three years ago.  :)

I've never heard of ATMs providing you with such small bills. The usual amounts are €20 and €50 notes. While that's somewhat convenient because smaller bills are easier to spend, it really puts off the usage of larger bills if you happen to have any. Airport control is a quite controversial subject, and you may run into trouble for carrying too much cash with you. It really depends on your luck and the occasion. Countries in Schengen, like Greece and Croatia, are free to travel between borders, so it's generally safer to carry undeclared cash.
There are multiple ways to bypass that, such as withdrawing to a Revolut account and then to your bank, but anyway.

Why do you think you will be questioned if you'll have this cash in your wallet? We're not talking about a suitcase full of money like they show it in movies, but a bunch of 500EUR banknotes in your wallet. Besides, you can rent a car and drive home and avoid all these security checks, customs etc.

Believe me, spending 500EUR banknotes is the smallest issue you're going to face. There are so many ways to exchange it to smaller banknotes including deposit ATMs, bank branches etc.

Large cash purchases is also not a problem. There are sellers and companies ready to do everything to make some profit. You can buy a $100k car with cash for example without an issue. The dealer will think of a way to do this. You certainly need to do research in which countries it's possible, in some countries you can get in trouble!  8)

That must depend on your country. Here, even 100 euro bills are often refused. I don't think banks will exchange them either, they don't earn from it and many banks here don't even have a cash register anymore.

Even if you find a car dealer who sells you the car, it needs to be registered, which means you can get questions about it later. And if the money didn't come from a clear source, you can't explain how you paid for it.
This reminds me: Al Capone got caught on tax fraud. You may get away with it, but I wouldn't be comfortable taking the risk.

Impossible. Euro is legal tender in the EU. The only reason they can refuse is because they have no smaller bills handy or some other technical reason. Otherwise, they're breaking the law and you can report them.

Regarding vehicles, yes you need registration. What many people do to "optimize" taxes is register it under your company/business (if you own one). If you live in the Netherlands for example, you can register a business in Belgium etc (not sure about these exact countries just mentioning them as an example). There are so many tricks allowing to circumvent the laws we can't even imagine.  ;D

Here the law doesn't force anyone to accept legal tender (https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/geldzaken/vraag-en-antwoord/kan-ik-met-een-wettig-betaalmiddel-overal-betalen).

You can, but you're not allowed to drive it in the Netherlands. Anyone else can, as long as they don't live here. Otherwise nobody would pay the very high Dutch car taxes. I'd love to have a cheap, low-tax car with German plates!

Everybody seems to be discussing exchanging Bitcoin for fiat. Isn't that against the original Bitcoin philosophy? I accept Bitcoin for domain name sales and a few other things. That seems to be a far better idea than supporting a dying banking system.
It would be interesting to find out the tax implications in selling a classic Volvo car for Bitcoin. Private car sales are gains tax exempt in the UK.

I wish I could, but unfortunately most of my daily expenses can't be paid by Bitcoin (yet). I'd have to travel to Arnhem (https://www.arnhembitcoinstad.nl/) to get groceries for example.

Here, I don't think there would be direct tax implications.

One of the most difficult aspects of getting started with bitcoin is converting it into fiat currency. Those who live in countries that have strict regulation of bitcoin and collect large taxes from them have harmed the crypto world. A peer-to-peer transaction is the best option right now because exchanges have made it easier to do those transactions where they serve as the escrow.

Even so, one must be extra cautious when dealing with them because some of them can easily steal your coins, which would not be at the expense of the exchange. If bitcoin becomes a legal tender, almost everyone will have a wallet you can do transaction to without having to change it to fiat currency first.

Legal tender aside, but each member of the EU has its own rules, so in some places you will even see a sign that clearly shows that you cannot pay with a 500 EUR bill. Today I read an article on a local portal about how a man filled fuel worth 50 EU and tried to pay with a 500 EUR bill, and not only that they did not accept that banknote, but he also experienced considerable inconvenience from the staff - some say that bill is called "Bin Laden" because of the assumption that it facilitated the financing of terrorism and money laundering.

Of course, after the banknote stopped being printed in 2016, it was not established that the financing of terrorism and money laundering had anything to do with banknotes of that value.

https://i.imgur.com/J9SuEas.png

Not really. I used to work at a gas station, and we generally avoided accepting €500 bills. Their distribution has stopped, and in order to exchange them for smaller bills at a bank, you have to declare how you acquired them and actually have a bank account with them; thus, your identity is somewhat given away. Moreover, as LoyceV already mentioned, the car needs to be registered and have its value declared. No new car dealership is going to declare it for a few thousand euros when there's documentation that they've bought it for way more.

Generally, everyone has the right to refuse to accept such a large bill, and as I've already mentioned, we usually didn't have the necessary change to return.

A p2p is good thing and make sure it will happen personally but you should be careful of course, you are holding and want to trade a large amount of money and you will be dealing with most probably a person who doesn't know you and you doesn't know as well but I think some people I knew exchange their bitcoin inside the casino I knew someone here in our country. They are doing transactions inside the casino only. Withdrawing huge amount of money without having a big business is questionable to banks and you will be tag as launderer maybe try to withdraw little by little if you want bank I guess.

Seem difficult these days to keep your wallet out of the radar from exchanges and transactions that could link your account to a network that is KYCed.

I was thinking recently of just scouting for stores that accept BTC and just negotiating with the merchant itself for less than market price I guess. This is possible since the merchant is probably thinking the same completely out of the radar.