Withdrawing Bitcoin off the radar

[Ultegra134]

~Snipped~

Thank you for your detailed response. I really appreciate it. Going abroad is something I was already considering in an attempt to combine leisure/travel with "business" when the time is right. Unfortunately, I definitely don't have $50,000 worth of Bitcoin, though I wish I did. I mentioned that I'm not going to sell for anything less than that. Although I'd still have a decent amount of money by then, I want to have a general idea of my options. The two last options sound like a decent idea because the ATMs have relatively high fees.

I'll definitely contact you if I am to proceed with any of the mentioned proposals. Thanks again.


Edit: Just read your story regarding your trip from Greece to Bucharest; hilarious that they thought you look suspicious just by your flight selection.

[GazetaBitcoin]

We have a history here of money exchangers that work only with paper money, even in 2023.

I confirm this.

Getting paper in money can be more reassuring than getting it in bank (with possible questions asked) and the exchanger knows this.
Actually the fact one gets paper money in hand can make this kind of exchange somewhat safer than on a DEX because the bank may ask about the money from various (maybe very odd) sources your money comes from and you may have no good answers.

I also second that. In the picture below is a declaration sent to Banca Transilvania by a client which was questioned how he intends to use his own money. The declaration is hilarious, yet true:

"I [...], client of Banca Transilvania, am issuing this declaration while being forced by the bank, based on some internal regulations which are NOT opposed to me, for justifying to the bank what I'm doing with my own money.

Given the fact that it's summer and it's period of vacations, being also in a period just after the lock down, I wish very much to have fun, therefore I will visit Holland (n.b LoyceV may smile here ), where prostitution is LEGAL, for the purpose of fu*#ing some prostitutes. Most likely, before reaching Holland, I'll do the same thing in Austria and Germany.

Then, also in Holland, since drugs are LEGAL, I wish I'll smoke some marijuana, hash and I'd also like to try some shrooms.
I heard that in Holland there are some tasty marijuana cakes, which I suggest you to try as well, as maybe you'll wake up and stop coercing people to give cretin declarations based on idiotic procedures, for justifying you what they do with their own money.

Of course, since I'll have so much money, if I'll run out of toilet paper then maybe I'll be fancy and I'll wipe my ass with a few hundred euros, like rich guys do.

The rest of the money if for lending to my friends and for making useless shopping, which I'll regret later."


                    Source: Facebook

Thank you for your detailed response. I really appreciate it.

Welcome!

Unfortunately, I definitely don't have $50,000 worth of Bitcoin, though I wish I did. I mentioned that I'm not going to sell for anything less than that. [...] I want to have a general idea of my options.

Yes, I understood that. The discussion is only in perspective.

I'll definitely contact you if I am to proceed with any of the mentioned proposals. Thanks again.

No worry, anytime If you want (and feel safer this way), if you'll ever come here I may assist you when you'll do the deal. You may not know Razvan and certainly not the respective exchange I mentioned but at least you know me from the forum. I am willing to help you.

[Ojima-ojo]

Ops physical Bitcoin exchange is possible and if you look closely you will find such an exchange that offers such service and does not require verification to process the transaction as opposed to a Bitcoin ATM.

But the risk rate is high since you mentioned, you have a large number of bitcoins that you have to swap into your local currency.

Just a note of caution,  because physical transactions have not been encouraging due to the risk of losing your funds to criminals since you can easily be robbed with cash.

[Maestro75]

Yes, one option for exchanging Bitcoin for cash in hand is through peer-to-peer (P2P) transactions. However, as you mentioned, this may not be convenient or practical for everyone. Another option is to use a cryptocurrency exchange that supports cash deposits or withdrawals. Some exchanges allow users to deposit cash into the exchange, which can then be used to purchase Bitcoin. Similarly, the Bitcoin can then be sold for cash, which can be withdrawn as cash in hand through a physical exchange location. Not sure where you are from, but if trading Bitcoin is legal in your country, there should be physical exchanges where you can buy and sell cryptocurrencies. The best thing to do is to ask your local community.

He does not want to use an exchange, he does not also want it to go through banks because of tax cuts and this limits his options. But how can someone exchange bitcoin without an exchange or banks. Eventhough he wants to go through a P2P and avoid exchanges, he will also need the bank to receive fiat equivalent of his transaction. I do not know if there are people who carry cash around and look for those physically selling their bitcoin. Bitcoin is more of online and internet thing.

[NotATether]

Above all, you have to be careful not to get counterfeit money. 

Has this ever happened before? I'd assume that you'd have to accidentally come into contact with some shady mafia group over e.g. Bisq for that to even be a remote possibility.

We have a history here of money exchangers that work only with paper money, even in 2023.

I confirm this.

But then how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.

[GazetaBitcoin]

how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.

If we think about 50.000 euros, it means 100 banknotes in denomination of of 500 euros. And yes, this amount should be declared when leaving the country. But if we only think about how to carry this amount, it's not too difficult to carry 100 banknotes, is it? They can easily fit inside a pocket.

However, since I understood that OP wants to have the entire operation done off the radar I suggested him to make multiple trips to the point of exchanging the money and only cash out amounts of 9999 euros, which do not have to be declared. Alternatively, OP could also plan a nice vacation and exchange more than 9999 euros and spend the money before returning home or return with an amount not greater than 9999 euros.

[NotATether]

how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.

If we think about 50.000 euros, it means 100 banknotes in denomination of of 500 euros. And yes, this amount should be declared when leaving the country. But if we only think about how to carry this amount, it's not too difficult to carry 100 banknotes, is it? They can easily fit inside a pocket.

My point was that you will most likely be questioned by authorities on the source of those funds and you'd have to admit that they were cashed out from cryptocurrency holdings or risk an arrest, or seizure of those funds.

Admitting that will of course lead to even more questions on where did you obtain the crypto from, since police deal with a ton of scammers that have a modulus operandi like that.

[Ultegra134]

how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.

If we think about 50.000 euros, it means 100 banknotes in denomination of of 500 euros. And yes, this amount should be declared when leaving the country. But if we only think about how to carry this amount, it's not too difficult to carry 100 banknotes, is it? They can easily fit inside a pocket.

My point was that you will most likely be questioned by authorities on the source of those funds and you'd have to admit that they were cashed out from cryptocurrency holdings or risk an arrest, or seizure of those funds.

Admitting that will of course lead to even more questions on where did you obtain the crypto from, since police deal with a ton of scammers that have a modulus operandi like that.

The distribution of €500 has stopped, but even if it hadn't, spending such a large amount is almost impossible. I remember having trouble even at the gas station, which handles quite a lot of money daily. Smaller notes, such as €50 or €100 ones, would be more preferable. Bringing a ton of cash through the airport is impossible without going through customs declaration; that's why GazetaBitcoin mentioned splitting the money into a few trips. On the other hand, having a decent amount of undeclared cash doesn't help at all, because you can't actually use them for large cash purchases.

[mendace]

OP, I think you've asked a question that many people would like an answer to (myself included). However, exchanging Bitcoin for cash firsthand doesn't seem safe to me at all. Instead, you could start by selling small amounts on Bisq and opening multiple online bank accounts in other countries (if it's possible from your country). Alternatively, the toughest solution but one that should be a priority for all of us is to start Orange Pill merchants and create a circular economy in our areas. You might wonder how it's possible, but take a cue from the Bitcoin Jungle or the Bitcoin Lake.
In that case, if you succeed, you won't need to exchange them for FIAT.

[CoinEraser]

Has this ever happened before? I'd assume that you'd have to accidentally come into contact with some shady mafia group over e.g. Bisq for that to even be a remote possibility.

It hasn't happened to me myself, but it has to other people. Someone here in the forum also reported about it in the german local board. Can't find the thread right now. But I can remember that he sold bitcoins for €500 and received counterfeit money. He only noticed this when he wanted to deposit the money at the bank. Unfortunately, he did not report further whether the buyer could be caught with the counterfeit money. 

[Ultegra134]

Has this ever happened before? I'd assume that you'd have to accidentally come into contact with some shady mafia group over e.g. Bisq for that to even be a remote possibility.

It hasn't happened to me myself, but it has to other people. Someone here in the forum also reported about it in the german local board. Can't find the thread right now. But I can remember that he sold bitcoins for €500 and received counterfeit money. He only noticed this when he wanted to deposit the money at the bank. Unfortunately, he did not report further whether the buyer could be caught with the counterfeit money. 

I know that it didn't happen to you, but what's the point of selling Bitcoin in person if you're going to deposit that money in a bank? Why go through such trouble and risk so much for such a petty amount and end up with counterfeit money that will get you in trouble? S/he could have sold through a P2P exchange with a bank transfer or even a normal exchange. Counterfeit money is quite popular among criminals and secretive deals; it's not hard to spot it among a few bills, but almost impossible if we're talking about a couple of thousand euros.

[Lucius]

The distribution of €500 has stopped, but even if it hadn't, spending such a large amount is almost impossible.

Tell me about it, because I have a problem even if I try to pay with a EUR 100 bill, given that we have just entered the Eurozone and our ATMs only pay out denominations of EUR 5, 10 and 20, and the national currency was even 7.5 times weaker than euros. I doubt that I will ever see a 500 EUR bill.

Bringing a ton of cash through the airport is impossible without going through customs declaration; that's why GazetaBitcoin mentioned splitting the money into a few trips. On the other hand, having a decent amount of undeclared cash doesn't help at all, because you can't actually use them for large cash purchases.

This should not be a problem if you are traveling within the Schengen Area, although I cannot say whether the procedure at airports is the same as at road border crossings where the border does not actually exist. Romania and Bulgaria are not part of that zone, and that's why things get complicated there, but if you choose another country, then theoretically you can cross the border without expecting any control.

Of course, all this is assuming that you don't act too nervous and suspicious at the airport, because such people attract attention.

[CoinEraser]

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Yes, that's a good question and I can't answer it either. Perhaps the person originally did not want to put the money into the account and later changed their mind.

However, there were also times when you could lose your bank account if the bank could see that the money came from selling cryptocurrency. There were a lot of cases like that, even if that hardly ever happens nowadays. Maybe the seller wanted to cover this up. That would actually be the most plausible explanation for this, because the case was two or three years ago.  

[Ultegra134]

~Snipped~

I've never heard of ATMs providing you with such small bills. The usual amounts are €20 and €50 notes. While that's somewhat convenient because smaller bills are easier to spend, it really puts off the usage of larger bills if you happen to have any. Airport control is a quite controversial subject, and you may run into trouble for carrying too much cash with you. It really depends on your luck and the occasion. Countries in Schengen, like Greece and Croatia, are free to travel between borders, so it's generally safer to carry undeclared cash.

-snip-

There are multiple ways to bypass that, such as withdrawing to a Revolut account and then to your bank, but anyway.

[serveria.com]

how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.

If we think about 50.000 euros, it means 100 banknotes in denomination of of 500 euros. And yes, this amount should be declared when leaving the country. But if we only think about how to carry this amount, it's not too difficult to carry 100 banknotes, is it? They can easily fit inside a pocket.

My point was that you will most likely be questioned by authorities on the source of those funds and you'd have to admit that they were cashed out from cryptocurrency holdings or risk an arrest, or seizure of those funds.

Admitting that will of course lead to even more questions on where did you obtain the crypto from, since police deal with a ton of scammers that have a modulus operandi like that.

The distribution of €500 has stopped, but even if it hadn't, spending such a large amount is almost impossible. I remember having trouble even at the gas station, which handles quite a lot of money daily. Smaller notes, such as €50 or €100 ones, would be more preferable. Bringing a ton of cash through the airport is impossible without going through customs declaration; that's why GazetaBitcoin mentioned splitting the money into a few trips. On the other hand, having a decent amount of undeclared cash doesn't help at all, because you can't actually use them for large cash purchases.

Why do you think you will be questioned if you'll have this cash in your wallet? We're not talking about a suitcase full of money like they show it in movies, but a bunch of 500EUR banknotes in your wallet. Besides, you can rent a car and drive home and avoid all these security checks, customs etc.

Believe me, spending 500EUR banknotes is the smallest issue you're going to face. There are so many ways to exchange it to smaller banknotes including deposit ATMs, bank branches etc.

Large cash purchases is also not a problem. There are sellers and companies ready to do everything to make some profit. You can buy a $100k car with cash for example without an issue. The dealer will think of a way to do this. You certainly need to do research in which countries it's possible, in some countries you can get in trouble! 

[LoyceV]

Believe me, spending 500EUR banknotes is the smallest issue you're going to face. There are so many ways to exchange it to smaller banknotes including deposit ATMs, bank branches etc.

That must depend on your country. Here, even 100 euro bills are often refused. I don't think banks will exchange them either, they don't earn from it and many banks here don't even have a cash register anymore.

Large cash purchases is also not a problem. There are sellers and companies ready to do everything to make some profit. You can buy a $100k car with cash for example without an issue. The dealer will think of a way to do this. You certainly need to do research in which countries it's possible, in some countries you can get in trouble!  

Even if you find a car dealer who sells you the car, it needs to be registered, which means you can get questions about it later. And if the money didn't come from a clear source, you can't explain how you paid for it.
This reminds me: Al Capone got caught on tax fraud. You may get away with it, but I wouldn't be comfortable taking the risk.

[serveria.com]

Believe me, spending 500EUR banknotes is the smallest issue you're going to face. There are so many ways to exchange it to smaller banknotes including deposit ATMs, bank branches etc.

That must depend on your country. Here, even 100 euro bills are often refused. I don't think banks will exchange them either, they don't earn from it and many banks here don't even have a cash register anymore.

Large cash purchases is also not a problem. There are sellers and companies ready to do everything to make some profit. You can buy a $100k car with cash for example without an issue. The dealer will think of a way to do this. You certainly need to do research in which countries it's possible, in some countries you can get in trouble!  

Even if you find a car dealer who sells you the car, it needs to be registered, which means you can get questions about it later. And if the money didn't come from a clear source, you can't explain how you paid for it.
This reminds me: Al Capone got caught on tax fraud. You may get away with it, but I wouldn't be comfortable taking the risk.

Impossible. Euro is legal tender in the EU. The only reason they can refuse is because they have no smaller bills handy or some other technical reason. Otherwise, they're breaking the law and you can report them.

Regarding vehicles, yes you need registration. What many people do to "optimize" taxes is register it under your company/business (if you own one). If you live in the Netherlands for example, you can register a business in Belgium etc (not sure about these exact countries just mentioning them as an example). There are so many tricks allowing to circumvent the laws we can't even imagine. 

[LoyceV]

Impossible. Euro is legal tender in the EU.

Here the law doesn't force anyone to accept legal tender.

What many people do to "optimize" taxes is register it under your company/business (if you own one). If you live in the Netherlands for example, you can register a business in Belgium

You can, but you're not allowed to drive it in the Netherlands. Anyone else can, as long as they don't live here. Otherwise nobody would pay the very high Dutch car taxes. I'd love to have a cheap, low-tax car with German plates!

[Jet Cash]

Everybody seems to be discussing exchanging Bitcoin for fiat. Isn't that against the original Bitcoin philosophy? I accept Bitcoin for domain name sales and a few other things. That seems to be a far better idea than supporting a dying banking system.
It would be interesting to find out the tax implications in selling a classic Volvo car for Bitcoin. Private car sales are gains tax exempt in the UK.

[LoyceV]

Everybody seems to be discussing exchanging Bitcoin for fiat. Isn't that against the original Bitcoin philosophy? I accept Bitcoin for domain name sales and a few other things. That seems to be a far better idea than supporting a dying banking system.

I wish I could, but unfortunately most of my daily expenses can't be paid by Bitcoin (yet). I'd have to travel to Arnhem to get groceries for example.

It would be interesting to find out the tax implications in selling a classic Volvo car for Bitcoin. Private car sales are gains tax exempt in the UK.

Here, I don't think there would be direct tax implications.