Withdrawing Bitcoin off the radar

[Lucius]

I knew I had to visit you but didn't get the chance to do it this year either! Sucks.

Now you have one more reason and you would kill two birds with one stone, even though changes are always possible, especially after entering the eurozone and the increasingly pronounced AML laws. However, look at it on the bright side, next year doesn't look so bad, and we hope that the price of BTC will then be at least 2-3 times higher than today.

~snip~
Get a cheap flight, arrange for a p2p deal in Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, or whatever as close as possible because of costs, and meet there with multiple! again, multiple traders split the sums. Or you can try finding some ATMs that still have limits for like 500E till they require KYC and visit 10 of them a day, sending each transaction from a different address so they don't red flag it.

As far as my country is concerned, there is no need to risk transactions with unknown persons (if that's what you meant), everything can be done officially in the physical branches of several companies that deal with cryptocurrency trading. Again, it depends on what city you are in, but the capital and a few cities on the coast have 2-3 different options available.

[Ultegra134]

Excuse me, I didn't quite understand what you meant. I've accumulated this sum of bitcoin through a variety of sources. I haven't bought a single one. Theoretically, isn't this income something that should be declared? I'm talking about the whole amount of coins.

What I meant is that it's only you who knows where you've got those coins from and whether it's by working for them, or mined, or you've bought them long ago when KYC was not everywhere. And I don't think that anybody would invest too much of resources to find out if your declaration is for real or it's hiding a bit of details here and there.
Hence if you declare them as income then you'll probably pay income tax and if you declare them as capital gains (from 0 since you don't have receipts), then you'll pay capital gains tax.
That's how I see the things.

Thank you for your great explanation, which makes perfect sense. Either I declare the whole amount as income or as capital gains and pay the corresponding tax. In both cases, if I decide to go that way, I'll have to choose which one is more affordable in my case.

So, OP, you're question is basically how to avoid tax and not get in trouble.

You're from Greece, which means the EU, you're also not selling till $50 000 and if we start from the presumption it will be quite a bit of money I would advise you to not try even a p2p deal in cahs in Greece and this is the same for everyone else, not try it in your home nation and not in your hometown.
Get a cheap flight, arrange for a p2p deal in Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, or whatever as close as possible because of costs, and meet there with multiple! again, multiple traders split the sums. Or you can try finding some ATMs that still have limits for like 500E till they require KYC and visit 10 of them a day, sending each transaction from a different address so they don't red flag it.

And, be careful what you do with the cash after!

It doesn't matter how you accumulated it, the tax will be based on what you choose FIFO or weighted average and what proof you have you have bought that amount at x price.
And no, it's still capital tax gains, it will be 15%.
So if you have proof you've bought coins at $1000 and you sell at $50 000 you will pay only for how much you sell 15% of the 49k difference.

Thank you for your detailed response. I appreciate it. Yes, the ideal scenario would be to avoid paying taxes and not get into trouble. Even if I could possibly find someone for a P2P in-person exchange, I'd avoid it. It sounds too risky to exchange a few thousand dollars in person.

The most dominating scenario so far would be to exchange my Bitcoin into a stablecoin when the time comes, withdraw small amounts from exchanges that no one would bother with, and the rest from ATMs, cryptocurrency cards, or abroad when I get the chance.

[serveria.com]

Hello there,

As I was driving earlier, this thought came through my mind. I've been accumulating Bitcoin for quite some time now, and at some point eventually I'll have to withdraw it in fiat, at least some of it. I'm not sure when that time will come, and I'm definitely not selling for anything below $50,000, but that's another story. However, I've always kept my bitcoin away from exchanges, and I prefer that it stays that way for obvious reasons that have been discussed numerous times in the forum.

Not only do I want to avoid exchanges but also banks, which is currently the most convenient way to withdraw money, but if I were to move funds to a bank account, they'd get taxed at 24%, which is a huge percentage. I've also thought about Bitcoin ATMs, but the majority of them here require some sort of KYC and feature expensive fees, although they may still be a better option than bank transfers. Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

Depending on the amount of Bitcoins you possess, you may want to try OTC trade, Localbitcoins (according to some previous posters going out of business soon), debit cards by Binance, Coinbase, Wirex etc (limited amounts). You could also try to find someone locally (can be dangerous).

[pixie85]

@Ultegra134, what you want is possible (for now) in a country that you might want to visit for touristic reasons There are physical exchange offices that do not require KYC up to a certain amount, which was 2000 EUR last year, and I think they have now reduced that amount to 1000 EUR. The fee in such exchange offices is around 5%, which is not small, but still less than what you would have to pay in your country.

For more details, you can always contact me via PM and I can give you more detailed instructions.

Most EU countries have no KYC limits of 1000 EUR with no KYC. I think there was some new regulation put in place in late 2021 to limit that. Before it used to be 10 000 EUR. I remember transacting like that with no KYC in 2019.
I also used to buy Amazon gift cards first at bitpanda exchange and then using bitrefill.

As for 1000 EUR limits it's really easy to withdraw more if you want because the limit is imposed on a single transaction, not a single person. The ATM cannot identify whether it's you again or another person. I've been withdrawing 2 or even 3 times the limit on more than one occasion.

[Kelvinid]

Very unfortunate OP because whether we like it or not, at the time we use institutions that are governed by governments like banks, we are entitled to pay taxes for them. The other option is to use a P2P platform to save taxes but the risk is too high and might it lose your funds if got fall into scammers.
Maybe it was not good to say but I think we need to face the reality that it was impossible by now to escape from taxes or even from KYC. But for me, it was not a big problem as long as my money is safe to arrive in my wallet. If the use of exchanges is the best and safe option, I don't hesitate to do it.

[LoyceV]

Your title is wrong: you're not looking to withdraw Bitcoin, you're looking to sell it.

if I were to move funds to a bank account, they'd get taxed at 24%, which is a huge percentage.

Only 24% tax? I wish I could pay that little!

Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand?

Apart from the exchange itself, have you considered what you're going to do with shitloads of cash? The main reason for paying taxes is to be able to legally spend your money. If you have a bag of money "off the radar", you'll raise questions when buying a car/house/jet, and (depending on where you live) you could get in much bigger troubles than just paying your taxes.
If it's €1000 in cash, you can easily spend it and nobody notices. If it's €1,000,000, you can't.

I'm situated in Greece.

In that case, you may just get away with it

My main concern is to avoid having the money deposited into a bank account. If it's coming from an exchange, there's a decent chance, if it's a high amount, that you'll be asked for further details. I'm not quite sure about splitting deposits from P2P transactions, though. That way, it won't direct back to an exchange, right?

Here, using established exchanges raises less questions from banks than many transactions from different people.

Theoretically, isn't this income something that should be declared? I'm talking about the whole amount of coins.

I know nothing about Greek taxes, but isn't this something you should have declared when you earned it?

[xSkylarx]

You have no choice but to use P2P or a bitcoin ATM since this is more likely to have lower fees than if you chose the bank. Though P2P is very difficult as you need to find the right person on it and it is very risky as you are transacting huge amounts of money, either you get scammed or robbed. Bitcoin ATMs are good, but i think there is a limit on them and there are fees, but I think they are way less than the banks. But again, you are not planning to sell it right now? It is still in the future, so it is more likely you will have other choices in the future; just don't think of it just yet.

[Lucius]

Depending on the amount of Bitcoins you possess, you may want to try OTC trade, Localbitcoins (according to some previous posters going out of business soon), debit cards by Binance, Coinbase, Wirex etc (limited amounts). You could also try to find someone locally (can be dangerous).

To use these cards, you have to do KYC, and if you do that, you are always exposed to the risk that your data will be shared with your tax institutions - because they can always legally request such data, and if I remember correctly, the IRS requested and received such data from Coinbase in the past. Even if you use so-called "anonymous cards" and pay for something online or in physical stores, you can be located via IP address or you will be recorded by one of the surveillance cameras that are everywhere.

Of course, in the case of small amounts, there is no need to worry too much, because the resources of government agencies are still focused on some more serious tax violations.

[LegendaryK]

Hello there,

As I was driving earlier, this thought came through my mind. I've been accumulating Bitcoin for quite some time now, and at some point eventually I'll have to withdraw it in fiat, at least some of it. I'm not sure when that time will come, and I'm definitely not selling for anything below $50,000, but that's another story. However, I've always kept my bitcoin away from exchanges, and I prefer that it stays that way for obvious reasons that have been discussed numerous times in the forum.

Not only do I want to avoid exchanges but also banks, which is currently the most convenient way to withdraw money, but if I were to move funds to a bank account, they'd get taxed at 24%, which is a huge percentage. I've also thought about Bitcoin ATMs, but the majority of them here require some sort of KYC and feature expensive fees, although they may still be a better option than bank transfers. Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

As far as the KYC, I would say go ahead and accept that if you are cashing out to Fiat.
* Traveling with large sums of fiat, is just asking for trouble.*
https://www.qcnews.com/news/investigations/government-seizes-billions-in-cash-from-air-travelers-without-ever-filing-a-criminal-charge/

You mentioned in a later post , you are in Greece.
https://www.ekathimerini.com/economy/1200283/no-legal-framework-for-crypto/
* According to the above their is no VAT for crypto sales.*

If you are waiting for a big win, I would suggest when the time is getting close to selling , contact a Tax Attorney for your Country 1st.
That way you know exactly what you are doing and what is the extent and timeline for any Tax implications.
* if you wait 5 years, the crypto tax laws might be totally different than now , so any current advice could be completely wrong in 2 or 3 years for you.  *

[Ultegra134]

~Snipped~

Thank you. You're correct; I'm looking to sell bitcoin, not withdraw. Wrong phrasing. It's actually 15% capital gains tax, unless I declare it as income since the amount was earned from scratch, in which case it's 24%, if I'm not mistaken. But honestly, you're right; I haven't thought about what I'd be doing with practically a bag of cash. Not only is it inconvenient but also dangerous, and there's also a chance to get away with it, just like you said. I could have declared them, but I didn't. Some were earned in the past, quite a few years ago, through various sources, while the rest are from signature campaigns in the past two years.

~Snipped~

Yeah, those debit cards should be fine for smaller amounts, purchases and occasional withdrawals.

~Snipped~

Thank you for your reply. Yes, regulations may be completely different in a year or two, but as LoyceV already mentioned, it may be best to withdraw through a bank since having a decent amount in cash isn't quite convenient either.

[LoyceV]

It's actually 15% capital gains tax, unless I declare it as income since the amount was earned from scratch, in which case it's 24%, if I'm not mistaken.
~
it may be best to withdraw through a bank since having a decent amount in cash isn't quite convenient either.

If you declare it now, is there a penalty for not declaring it earlier?

[BlackHatCoiner]

Only 24% tax? I wish I could pay that little!

To what tax are you referring to? Property tax or realized gain? 24% is nowhere close to little.

You have no choice but to use P2P or a bitcoin ATM since this is more likely to have lower fees than if you chose the bank.

I live in Greece, and there is no KYC-free Bitcoin ATM. You'll raise suspicion if the money aren't taxed are lots, and even if you don't they'll tax you a nice 8% as commission. 

[LoyceV]

To what tax are you referring to? Property tax or realized gain? 24% is nowhere close to little.

The total. Here, the income tax is around 37-56%, and the "property tax" is around 2% each year.

I live in Greece

I should move The weather is much better too

[virasog]

Hello there,

As I was driving earlier, this thought came through my mind. I've been accumulating Bitcoin for quite some time now, and at some point eventually I'll have to withdraw it in fiat, at least some of it. I'm not sure when that time will come, and I'm definitely not selling for anything below $50,000, but that's another story. However, I've always kept my bitcoin away from exchanges, and I prefer that it stays that way for obvious reasons that have been discussed numerous times in the forum.

Not only do I want to avoid exchanges but also banks, which is currently the most convenient way to withdraw money, but if I were to move funds to a bank account, they'd get taxed at 24%, which is a huge percentage. I've also thought about Bitcoin ATMs, but the majority of them here require some sort of KYC and feature expensive fees, although they may still be a better option than bank transfers. Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

Well, the first and most important thing is to buy and accumulate as much bitcoin as you can and keep it secure until it reaches some value on which you are willing to sell and gain profits. The thing is that you need to keep your bitcoin save and not lose them.

When you need to convert it into fiat currency, there will be many options. If you have millions of dollars worth of bitcoins, you can convert few through P2P and banks and move to a country like Dubai or any crypto friendly nation and cash out all without any issue of complication of legalization / taxation.

[pixie85]

To what tax are you referring to? Property tax or realized gain? 24% is nowhere close to little.

The total. Here, the income tax is around 37-56%, and the "property tax" is around 2% each year.

I live in Greece

I should move The weather is much better too

There are much better options, like the one in Germany where you have no tax if you can prove you held your coins for more than a year.
Or you can go to Poland, they have 17% income tax up to 25 000 EUR and 32% on whatever you earn above that.

56% income tax is probably one of the highest income tax rates in Europe. Usually found only in the cold North like Finland and Denmark. Their tax rates and food prices can make you consider suicide.

[GazetaBitcoin]

Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

I'd also like to share an opinion on this matter, although it will be, probably, most unusual OP heard so far.

I understand that the percentage of 24% is ridiculous. I also understand there are no KYC-less ATMs in Greece. Working with banks is also totally not recommendable as you share almost same risks as with centralized crypto exchanges (not all risks the lattest present but still most of them).

I see some users suggested decentralized exchanges or peer-to-peer transfers.


In case you are really interested, in Bucharest you will find three KYC-less methods for changing BTC with fiat.

.1 The KYC-less ATMs of BitcoinRomania: these can be found thorough entire country but best prices are at the ones from their headquarter, which is in Bucharest downtown. You can cash out amounts up to 1000 euros without any kind of KYC and amounts between 1000-3000 euros by offering a phone number. I asked them why they request the phone number and they said that in case you lose the receipt given by the ATM, which contains the transaction internal code, at least you have a text message from them containing that code, thus if you call them you can easily receive assistance. You can perform multiple withdrawals with amounts between 1000-3000 euros or, alternatively, some more withdrawals with amounts of 0-1000 euros, in case you don't want to use a phone number. In any case, you can buy a KYC-less phone sim card at the price of 2 euros and use it with an old phone. ATMs have prices with ~10-11% lower than BTC value on CoinMarketCap. You can also show yourself in front of these ATMs while wearing a hoodie, sunglasses and face mask -- their internal software won't block the transaction although the camera is not detecting your face.

2. In Bucharest you can find a very serious guy, named Razvan_BTC. He is offering crypto-fiat exchanges of any amounts, at a very small fee (about 3.5-4.5%). Razvan is very correct and I am personally granting for him. I made multiple deals with him and each time he was very correct. I know that it looks risky but if my word presents any sort of trustworthiness then you can talk to him at any time. He performs his activities also in Bucharest downtown.

3. Third option is a regular money exchange, which I found by pure chance. It is located near BitcoinRomania headquarter and, excepting money, it also operates with gold, silver, various jewelry etc. The owner (I think he was the owner) told me that at his echange you can also change crypto with fiat, for a very good fee (about 5% if I remember well). Obviously, also KYC-less. However, I have not tried yet their services.

I used services of BitcoinRomania in the past and I vouch for them, in case you feel safer inside the precincts of an actual company. Then I switched to Razvan_BTC's services and the financial advantage is huge.

A round-trip flight from Athens to Bucharest is only 203 euros and in 1.5h you are here.

Since you said you don't want to sell under 50.000 euros, the 203 euros for plane tickets represent 0.4% of the 50.000 euros transaction. I guess it's a good deal compared with the 24% you mentioned in OP, isn't it? 

In case you will ever think about this or actually take the decision, you can always contact me or contact Razvan and let him know that I introduced him to you. As a plus, you'll also have the chance to see Bucharest downtown, where the old city is also located, and which is a very nice area to visit!

[NeuroticFish]

Since you said you don't want to sell under 50.000 euros, the 203 euros for plane tickets represent 0.4% of the 50.000 euros transaction. I guess it's a good deal compared with the 24% you mentioned in OP, isn't it? 

I think that his point was that he's not selling at under 50k/BTC, so it's about the price, not the amount he's selling.
Even more, leaving with 50k EUR may not be great (we're not in the Shengen yet, remember?) and also depositing such amount to a bank (even more, one that's foreign for him) may rise questions.
I will add that (I remember your story on Greek airports!) if he returns too quick from Bucharest may also rise some eyebrows

All in all, the suggestions are not bad, but I'd do that only together with an actual vacation or at least city break. This way the price of the plane will actually worth it even for much lower amount of bitcoins sold.

[LoyceV]

Even more, leaving with 50k EUR may not be great

I realized something else: why would anyone buy €50k in Bitcoin with cash? Exchanges are less risky, and leave a paper trail to explain your spending to taxes. Unless said person doesn't want a paper trail, for instance because it's criminal money. By that logic, it's more likely you'll be dealing with criminals than with honest people, which significantly increases the risk of a cash transaction.

[GazetaBitcoin]

I think that his point was that he's not selling at under 50k/BTC, so it's about the price, not the amount he's selling.

Yes, I understood that.

Even more, leaving with 50k EUR may not be great (we're not in the Shengen yet, remember?) and also depositing such amount to a bank (even more, one that's foreign for him) may rise questions.

Well, in the theoretic case when OP has BTC worth of 50.000 euros, he could also make multiple visits to Bucharest and sell for values of 9999 euros, thus he would not be coerced to declare the money. Even in this situation (let's suppose he makes 5 visits for five 10.000 9999 euros transfers), he will still save way much more money than paying a 24% tax. Five round-trips would cost 1000 euros, which represent 2% from the supposed 50.000 total amount, while the 24% tax is 12.000 euros. Still speaking in percentages, his saving would be 1200% greater than by paying the 24% tax.

I will add that (I remember your story on Greek airports!) if he returns too quick from Bucharest may also rise some eyebrows
All in all, the suggestions are not bad, but I'd do that only together with an actual vacation or at least city break. This way the price of the plane will actually worth it even for much lower amount of bitcoins sold.

I added here a hyperlink of the story you mentioned, for everybody to understand. Excepting that, the idea of a vacation is not bad OP would certainly have many places to visit here, including Dracula's castle

I realized something else: why would anyone buy €50k in Bitcoin with cash? Exchanges are less risky, and leave a paper trail to explain your spending to taxes. Unless said person doesn't want a paper trail, for instance because it's criminal money. By that logic, it's more likely you'll be dealing with criminals than with honest people, which significantly increases the risk of a cash transaction.

The person I recommended lives from doing this since 2012 or so. He simply acts like an exchange, meaning that he buys from you and sells to me, this is how he manages to buy / sell any kind of amounts. During a decade since he is doing this business he made a big clientele, thus he always has someone in the queue for meeting him to sell him crypto or to buy from him crypto.

So he acts like an exchange, except that deals with him are anonymous and the fees he applies are much more friendly than those used by a cash-in / cash-out ATM.

I may be wrong, but so far I did not suspect anything shady at him during the times I made dealings with him.

[NeuroticFish]

I realized something else: why would anyone buy €50k in Bitcoin with cash? Exchanges are less risky, and leave a paper trail to explain your spending to taxes. Unless said person doesn't want a paper trail, for instance because it's criminal money. By that logic, it's more likely you'll be dealing with criminals than with honest people, which significantly increases the risk of a cash transaction.

Not necessarily. We have a history here of money exchangers that work only with paper money, even in 2023. Getting paper in money can be more reassuring than getting it in bank (with possible questions asked) and the exchanger knows this.
Actually the fact one gets paper money in hand can make this kind of exchange somewhat safer than on a DEX because the bank may ask about the money from various (maybe very odd) sources your money comes from and you may have no good answers.

Of course, this doesn't mean your use case is impossible. Just it's not the only use case.