Bitcoin Forum

You can see what you described at https://map.bitcoin.com/ (https://map.bitcoin.com/), although many places are using Bitcoin Cash over Bitcoin at this point due to the poor user experience on BTC.

I wrote a whole book on what happened too: https://www.amazon.com/Hijacking-Bitcoin-Hidden-History-BTC/dp/B0CXWBCWDR/ref=zg_bs_g_10806607011_d_sccl_1/133-2063248-2793037?psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Hijacking-Bitcoin-Hidden-History-BTC/dp/B0CXWBCWDR/ref=zg_bs_g_10806607011_d_sccl_1/133-2063248-2793037?psc=1)

Early Bitcoin Investor Charged with Tax Fraud

Man Known as “Bitcoin Jesus” Evaded Nearly $50M in Taxes
WASHINGTON – An indictment was unsealed yesterday charging Roger Ver, an early investor in bitcoins, with mail fraud, tax evasion and filing false tax returns. Ver was arrested this weekend in Spain based on the U.S. criminal charges. The United States will seek Ver’s extradition to stand trial in the United States.

According to the indictment, Ver formerly of Santa Clara, California, owned MemoryDealers.com Inc. and Agilestar.com Inc., two companies that sold computer and networking equipment. Starting in 2011, Ver allegedly began acquiring bitcoins for himself and his companies. He also allegedly avidly promoted bitcoins, even obtaining the moniker “Bitcoin Jesus.”

On Feb. 4, 2014, Ver allegedly obtained citizenship in St. Kitts and Nevis and shortly thereafter renounced his U.S. citizenship in a process known as expatriation. As a result of his expatriation, Ver allegedly was required under U.S. law to file tax returns that reported capital gains from the constructive sale of his world-wide assets, including the bitcoins, and to report the fair market value of his assets. He was also allegedly required to pay a tax – referred to as an “exit tax” – on those capital gains. By Feb. 4, 2014, Ver and his companies allegedly owned approximately 131,000 bitcoins that traded on several large exchanges for around $871 each. MemoryDealers and Agilestar allegedly held approximately 73,000 of those bitcoins.

Ver allegedly hired a law firm to assist him with his expatriation and to prepare his expatriation-related tax returns. Ver also allegedly hired an appraiser to value his two companies. Ver allegedly provided or caused to be provided false or misleading information to the law firm and appraiser that concealed the true number of bitcoins he and his companies owned. As a result, the law firm allegedly prepared and filed false tax returns that substantially undervalued the two companies and their 73,000 bitcoins and did not report that Ver owned any bitcoins personally.

The indictment further alleges that by June 2017, Ver’s two companies continued to own approximately 70,000 bitcoins. Around that time, Ver allegedly took possession of those bitcoins and in November 2017 sold tens of thousands of them on cryptocurrency exchanges for approximately $240 million in cash. Even though Ver was not then a U.S. citizen, he was still legally required to report to the IRS and pay tax on certain distributions such as dividends from MemoryDealers and Agilestar, which were U.S. corporations. Ver allegedly concealed from his accountant that he had received and sold MemoryDealers’ and Agilestar’s bitcoins that year. As a result, Ver’s 2017 individual income tax return did not report any gain or pay any tax related to the distribution of MemoryDealers’ and Agilestar’s bitcoins to him.

In total, Ver is alleged to have caused a loss to the IRS of at least $48 million.

Acting Deputy Assistant Attorney General Stuart M. Goldberg of the Justice Department’s Tax Division and U.S. Attorney Martin Estrada for the Central District of California made the announcement.

IRS Criminal Investigation's cybercrimes unit is investigating the case.

Assistant Chief Matthew J. Kluge and Trial Attorney Peter J. Anthony of the Justice Department’s Tax Division and Assistant U.S. Attorney James. C. Hughes for the Central District of California are prosecuting the case.

An indictment is merely an allegation. All defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution....

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution.

Let's see as more details unfold regarding this case.

- Jay -

The state is officially declaring a war on cryptocurrencies.  Expect further arrests in the future. 

...
Then the part where he changed citizenship and was required to pay exit tax - like WTF? The country bullies you, you decide you don't want to live there anymore, so they want you to pay them for leaving? What kind of law is that? I'm sure many people aren't even aware of such rule.
...

You can't have boating accidents with Bitcoin, they see everything.

We are officially at war!
One of the Bitcointalk forum members known as MemoryDealers (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=10310) aka Roger Ver was allegedly arrested in Spain for tax fraud.

How are we at war? Kindly pardon my ignorance here as a noob , I may not have fully understood. Although I have learned not to believe everything I read on the Internet but from the news publication if there's any truth to it, MemoryDealers broke the law and he is facing the consequences for it.

How are we at war? Kindly pardon my ignorance here as a noob , I may not have fully understood. Although I have learned not to believe everything I read on the Internet but from the news publication if there's any truth to it, MemoryDealers broke the law and he is facing the consequences for it.

Topic will be updated with more information later, but I am interested to hear your opinion about this.

Although tax avoidance is completely legal, it is dangerous. You can freely do that but you have to make sure that you're a friend with the government. If not, there's always a reason for them to give you headache. There's always something for which you'd be held accountable.

Many rich people try to evade as much tax as they can it’s honestly crazy especially thinking just how much money they have.

CZ was way better than all these shameless beings if I have to support anyone in this crypto space it will be CZ and CZ only, do not compare CZ to Roger Very.

Then the part where he changed citizenship and was required to pay exit tax - like WTF? The country bullies you, you decide you don't want to live there anymore, so they want you to pay them for leaving? What kind of law is that? I'm sure many people aren't even aware of such rule.

Why would you support CZ, a criminal ? his exchange is known to sell paper-coins, manipulate prices and freezing random accounts for no reason.

I am surprised this whole Binance scam is still going. CEX are cryptocurrency cancer that needs to go away and be replaced by DEX.

I think you are mistaken about CZ and Binance.

The US authorities have detained both Samourai developers and Roger Ver within a single week.  Some might see this as mere coincidence, but I believe it sends a clear message.  The state is officially declaring a war on cryptocurrencies.  Expect further arrests in the future.  

The DoJ has kicked the hornet's nest, and the swarm is headed towards us.  

"Even though Ver was not then a U.S. citizen, he was still legally required to report to the IRS and pay tax on certain distributions such as dividends from MemoryDealers and Agilestar, which were U.S. corporations," said the DOJ."

We live in a clown world where you can be a citizen of another country and the US can get you arrested and extradited there. They can also imprison you for alleged crimes committed against its monetary policy which is another joke of a law.

There clearly is a DoJ-wide mandate to target crypto

He's a free-thinker and a freedom-lover, somebody who recognizes that something is terribly wrong with the world, and wants to do something about it.

Why would you support CZ, a criminal ? his exchange is known to sell paper-coins, manipulate prices and freezing random accounts for no reason.

I ONLY deposited Monero and I never had a single issue with them.

The US authorities have detained both Samourai developers and Roger Ver within a single week.  Some might see this as mere coincidence, but I believe it sends a clear message.  The state is officially declaring a war on cryptocurrencies.  Expect further arrests in the future. 

The DoJ has kicked the hornet's nest, and the swarm is headed towards us. 

I have massive respect for the man Roger. I have read his history and the excellent job he did with bitcoin in its early days. However, as far as I know, no one is above the law and it must be respected. And from what theymos has written about him, he seem like a great guy who kinda lost his way. I think he may have made a lot of mistakes and burnt a lot of bridges in his pursuits which did not align with BTC. We seeing cyberpunk fiction beginning to play out just like in an idealist novel.

FYI: The US 'exit tax' has been in effect since 2008 and folks in the USA with money have always been well aware of it. Ver obviously was and paid what he thought would be enough to throw the IRS off his scent. Problem is -- he apparently took it further and lied about his companies BTC holdings while extracting a sizeable portion of it for himself.

I'm curious about how the statute of limitations will apply. Much of the indictment refers to alleged crimes happening many years ago.

I read the full indictment (https://www.justice.gov/opa/media/1350116/dl?inline), and it looks pretty bad. The thing where he allegedly decided in 2016 to file a 2011 gift tax return saying that he had gifted bitcoins to his partner stood out as especially bad to me.

(I wonder: why are they allowed to use quotes from emails between Ver and his lawyer?)

It appears (https://gocarverllc.com/tax-fraud-statute-of-limitations/#:~:text=As%20such%2C%20a%20taxpayer%20that,offense%20such%20as%20tax%20fraud.) the statute of limitations for tax fraud is 6 years.

Can the IRS Take More Than 10 Years to Collect Tax Debts?

In some cases, the IRS can take more than 10 years to collect tax debts. This happens when an event causes the clock to stop ticking on the statute of limitations and the deadline gets extended. This is called tolling the statute of limitations.

To give you an example, imagine that you have five years left until the statute of limitations expires. Then, you take an action that pauses the clock for two months. At the end of those two months, you still have five years left on the statute of limitations. If the clock had not stopped, you would only have four years and 10 months left.
Tolling the Statute of Limitations

Here are actions that toll the collection statute:

    Applying for an offer in compromise — This tolls the statute from the day you apply to the 30 days after the IRS rejects the offer.
    Requesting an installment agreement — When you apply for a payment plan, the statute is tolled while your application is pending.
    Filing an innocent spouse claim — The statute tolls on the day you apply, and then it restarts at a range of different times depending on the situation. It only tolls the statute for the spouse who applies. It doesn’t affect the CSED for the other spouse.
    Filing bankruptcy — This tolls the statute during the bankruptcy case and for six months afterward.
    Filing a Taxpayer Assistance Order — The statute is tolled from the day you file the assistance order until the Taxpayer Advocate issues a decision on your request.
    Appealing a collection action through a collection due process hearing — The clock stops from the time you appeal until 90 days after you receive a decision from appeals.
   Leaving the country for six or more months in a row — In this case, the statute does not expire until at least six months after you get back to the United States.

nope.. its much longer
https://wiggamlaw.com/blog/irs-10-year-back-taxes-statute-of-limitations/

in short being an expat in another country means the clock stops when you left. but when you return they can start the clock again. so even if you left the country in 2014 and returned in say 2022.. the deadline of a 2014 case only starts its first year in 2022

That article is referring to collecting back taxes, a civil matter. I was referring to the criminal prosecution for tax fraud.

I don't think that is right. Civil and criminal liability are two separate things.

That article is referring to collecting back taxes, a civil matter. I was referring to the criminal prosecution for tax fraud.

If that's the case, I wonder who will be the next victim? Vitalik Buterin, perhaps?

On the top of that, they print money which is another tax. If they are collecting taxes, why are they printing money?

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution.

Let's see as more details unfold regarding this case.

- Jay -

50M in taxes is a lot of money... I wonder if this was just an excuse to arrest him, or if he really evaded all that.

He didn't murder anybody though. Somehow tax-evasion is in a gray area for me. Since the gov uses that tax money in a very stupid way most of the time, I too don't like paying taxes. On the top of that, they print money which is another tax. If they are collecting taxes, why are they printing money? If they are printing money why are they collecting taxes? This shit is so broken.

I personally don't think Bitcoin Cash helped the world in any way, but kudos to you for looking for the positives.

As someone who worked with helping people file their taxes in the US, I understand why there is a huge number of citizens that do not know how to file for their taxes and would rather pay other people to do it for them, even if it means that it might be an additional amount equivalent to the tax that they should be paying. This goes out to individuals that are earning modestly and quite 'comfortably', but I'm not certain about people who are earning millions from whatever venture they have.

I'm pretty sure Roger Ver knows his taxes. He may have forgotten that he's still obligated to pay his taxes (that's how absurd it is) even though in his mind, he no longer has this obligation to the US.

It's also amazing that Ver hasn't been a US citizen for a decade and they come up with that right now? I feel like this isn't a coincidence and either some model citizen reminded the IRS about him, or maybe it has something to do with the recent attack on bitcoin wallets.

This was his last post in bitcointalk forum:

U.S. decided to empty all the “fat wallets” with bitcoin? They should have publicly stated “thank you guys for pumping up bitcoin and now we will take on this asset ourselves”, when the whole world believed in this cryptocurrency and billions of capital were poured in. The right time to get your hands on this is when BTC has gained value. It sounds slightly absurd, but it seems to me that independent individual large BTC-holders (like Roger Ver) will be forced to part with (at least part of) their savings, because it is easy to influence (find and force) such people, and the reward will be impressive.

It's funny that yesterday the state pretended that bitcoin was a candy wrapper, but today they arrest you for it.

How are we at war? Kindly pardon my ignorance here as a noob , I may not have fully understood. Although I have learned not to believe everything I read on the Internet but from the news publication if there's any truth to it, MemoryDealers broke the law and he is facing the consequences for it.

I'm curious about how the statute of limitations will apply. Much of the indictment refers to alleged crimes happening many years ago.

I would not defend Roger in any matter, but this is just another confirmation of why anonymity is important.
The US is putting serious pressure on the regulation of the Bitcoin system (I can't shake the impression that they put themselves as the main and only judges here) and we were afraid that they would ban cryptocurrencies.  :-[

You can now see why Satoshi never disclosed his identity in the first place. I feel sorry for Vitalik Buterin, Charles Hoskinson, Gavin Wood, and other founders/developers/early crypto investors who disclosed their identities. They will get scrutinized by the government real soon. Roger Ver is now facing the consequences of revealing his identity to the public. I sure hope he doesn't get extradited to the US like CZ and the likes.

Tbh, I don't believe satoshi is anonymous too. To us, yes he is still anonymous, but just because we don't know it, yet, doesn't mean somebody somewhere also doesn't. Let's say the US gov really knows who satoshi is, is it in their interest to share that info with the general public? Don't think so. They are not stupid.

How do we know if the gov don't already know satoshi's identity? I just posted another message in some other topic in the same context.

Exactly. I've always wondered about that. But what if Satoshi Nakamoto was actually the CIA or NSA (which explains why no one has been able to find who he/she/they really was)? We'll never know for sure. The thing is crypto users need to be aware of governments' increasing surveillance tactics by protecting their privacy as much as possible.

If developers are creating something as controversial as a mixer or decentralized exchange, they must never reveal their identity to the public.
What's best? Satisfy investors by revealing your ID (making them believe your project is legit)? Or remain anonymous like Satoshi even if investors think your project is a scam? I think the last option is the way to go. Hopefully, crypto investors learn a valuable lesson with the US' aggressive stance towards the industry. Wishing all the best to Roger Ver. :)

But what if Satoshi Nakamoto was actually the CIA or NSA (which explains why no one has been able to find who he/she/they really was)?

That's the thing, you can't stay anonymous on the internet forever when you are using the internet infrastructure and domains which are controlled by the gov.

"Forever" is a very long time.  You can stay anonymous for a reasonable time.  Fire up Tails OS and use Monero as p2p e-cash.  Pretty good anonymity.  Just don't mess it up by linking your real world identity. 

“Staying anonymous for a reasonable time” isn’t going to be enough if your are working on a project that can possibly disrupt the world.

How long will it take for the government to come up with a hint?

Check Monero's development team.  They are anonymous since 2014.  That means you can be anonymous as long as you are not reckless. 

Check Monero's development team.  They are anonymous since 2014.

Who's to say Vitalik Buterin, Charles Hoskinson, and Gavin Wood are next? If everyone followed Satoshi's footsteps, crypto land would be a much better place. :(

Who's to say Vitalik Buterin, Charles Hoskinson, and Gavin Wood are next? If everyone followed Satoshi's footsteps, crypto land would be a much better place. :(

It's the war of government against the people, and all of the sudden developers are getting arrested, and everyone is breaking a law if they had any connection with Bitcoin.
With the way how they are going in future you will be able to use bitcoin only with custodial and government approved services  :P
You don't need to be expert to understand what is happening.

Except for their main, original dev (https://twitter.com/fluffypony) who got the ball rolling. The project wouldn't have gotten off the ground without him, and he's possibly one of the most well-respected people in the crypto space (I put him several notches above Roger Ver any day of the week).

I don't see Satoshi buying billion dollar yachts.

I think most people wouldn't like to be very rich in crypto if they can't spend it.

Why would you support CZ, a criminal ? his exchange is known to sell paper-coins, manipulate prices and freezing random accounts for no reason.

I am surprised this whole Binance scam is still going. CEX are cryptocurrency cancer that needs to go away and be replaced by DEX.

Next arrest we need is the Tether printer owners, whole cryptocurrency market will go down for a while but at least we will have true valuation and not the inflated one.

It's the war of government against the people, and all of the sudden developers are getting arrested, and everyone is breaking a law if they had any connection with Bitcoin.
With the way how they are going in future you will be able to use bitcoin only with custodial and government approved services  :P

The puzzling thing is, why only crypto developers are facing this? Normal developers get by without any problems at all. I think they are being very selective here.

This is slowly happening in European Union, which i somewhat touched in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5495068.0.

“The closer the collapse of the Empire, the crazier it's laws are.” ― Cicero

That's why it's crucial to have at least one bitcoin-friendly country, in which you can safely exchange coins to fiat. Otherwise the whole concept of blockchain and decentralisation becomes obsolete.

The puzzling thing is, why only crypto developers are facing this? Normal developers get by without any problems at all. I think they are being very selective here.
...
I would argue that the remaining developers are pseudonymous at best. Anonymity implies that nobody knows a thing about you. But they do have these online aliases they use for themselves, just like Satoshi.

I don't see Satoshi buying billion dollar yachts. I think most people wouldn't like to be very rich in crypto if they can't spend it.

I don't see Satoshi buying billion dollar yachts. I think most people wouldn't like to be very rich in crypto if they can't spend it.

The guys that last in this business, are the guys who fly straight. Low-key, quiet. But the guys who want it all, chicas, champagne, flash... They don't last.

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution.

Most crypto rich people wanted to show off, wanted to be famous and now they are paying the price for their stupidity.

The worst thing with this topic, is the comparison with Sam Bankman-Fried. It is clear that financing political parties pays-off... just compare the two judicial sentences

Exactly, having friends in really high places would make you get away on things that would end someone if they ever get to that place. I think that him being a shill for Bitcoin Cash has anything to do with this one but I do hope that he can survive this thing because this is clearly another attack by the authorities against cryptocurrency and the community. Isn't tax fraud a bit unjustifiable being his case? Ver's been on the crypto space for a long time and this is the only time that they've done some kind of connection? Maybe if they were building a case, they would've easily done it a long time ago.

Sam was never a crypto man to begin with. He worked at Jane Street before he went into crypto (in case you never heard of that, it is some sort of hedge fund at Wall Street), and the only thing he really  did in relation to crypto is open an exchange for bitcoin and lots of shitcoins after that run and bust in 2018.

Govs probably don't care about Bitcoin Cash to begin with so that probably does not affect him in this case except for tax purposes.

...
I don't think the IRS is looking to put people in jail necessarily, but they just make doing your taxes unnecessarily difficult/costly as I just said.  The amount of money involved in this case is huge, but for "little people" who owe back taxes or get caught up in tax issues, the IRS usually settles with them in the form of a fine, penalties, whatever and they don't end up in prison.

One thing I learned recently is that the IRS will not go after somebody if the cost of the investigation is larger than the amount of money that can potentially be collected. This info comes first hand from a professional collector who worked as an IRS agent for decades.

Didn't they hire a bunch of new people in last few years to work for IRS?

They can always find someone who is living in different countries around the world and pay them much less to help them to arrest anyone they want.

No need to spend so much money for traveling as person being arrested is going to be held in foreign prison first

like Roger is held in the same prison like John McAfee was... what a ''coincidence''.

But yep, taxes and all the laws regarding them are indeed crazy in the US.  However, in other countries the actual tax rates are even higher (though I don't know how complex the laws are, or how fucking hard they make it for the average person to file their taxes without resorting to expensive software or hiring an accountant).  I don't think the IRS is looking to put people in jail necessarily, but they just make doing your taxes unnecessarily difficult/costly as I just said.  The amount of money involved in this case is huge, but for "little people" who owe back taxes or get caught up in tax issues, the IRS usually settles with them in the form of a fine, penalties, whatever and they don't end up in prison.

For 99%+ of the population of the US income taxes (the IRS) are actually easy. It's just that most people get caught up in the 'you need to have an accountant' or the 'you need a tax professional' For under $50 you can get software that will do it all for you. Even moderately complex things like crypto trading.

As for not paying your taxes most of the time there is no penalty if you don't not pay on a regular basis. Keep it up and they will nail you. Mess up here and there and you will own whatever you owe + interest. The flip side is also true, if you mess up and the government owes you money you get (minimal) interest.

Yes you can always get 'that guy' who works for the IRS who wants to nail you to the wall. But for the most part it's not that bad.

Stale / local / sales tax / property tax and all those other things are different but not really part of this discussion.

-Dave

i thought it was just a proposal still, they must have approved the bill on Sunday night session.
last news i heard it was 25% for unrealized gains so there it goes. it's official and Ver is the first to be set as an example. just look at how much effort he made to the extent of renouncing his U.S. citizenship but seems like he will be expatriated to pay.  

not sure if he knows that he is required to report to the IRS even when he isn't a US citizen anymore. all the troubles seem nothing has changed. feel sorry for him. it's their law though.

I just stumbled across this thread, and *wow* I'm blown away at the charges but somehow not entirely surprised by the alleged behavior on the part of Ver.  I'd no clue that he'd become an ex-pat, either.

But yep, taxes and all the laws regarding them are indeed crazy in the US.  However, in other countries the actual tax rates are even higher (though I don't know how complex the laws are, or how fucking hard they make it for the average person to file their taxes without resorting to expensive software or hiring an accountant).  I don't think the IRS is looking to put people in jail necessarily, but they just make doing your taxes unnecessarily difficult/costly as I just said.  The amount of money involved in this case is huge, but for "little people" who owe back taxes or get caught up in tax issues, the IRS usually settles with them in the form of a fine, penalties, whatever and they don't end up in prison.


No offense to the younger generation, but that has a lot to do with immaturity in a lot of cases--Roger Ver is an exception if he flaunted his wealth, but I have heard tell of a lot of young, crypto-wealthy people making it known on social media what their financial situation is, how rich they are, and even if they didn't get in trouble with the IRS, they got robbed.  Plus even if Ver weren't vocal about his wealth, I'm sure the IRS would have had its eyes on him anyway and they've got enough investigative power such that they don't need to resort to following his escapades online, you know?

I really don't understand one thing: he made all these efforts, like you say, to renounce to his American citizenship because of tax reasons, I understand it, it makes sense, but then why would you keep your American companies, so you are still tied to the US anyway, and, especially, why do you lie on the tax returns? A guy like Roger Ver was probably already flagged for different reasons, did he really didn't think that the IRS would find out? We are talking about huge numbers, this is not the average Joe trying to save a couple of hundred bucks. I really don't get it.

I never liked Roger, especially after that video where he showed us the finger, but what amazes me is that he sold so many BTC for less than $1k - that's one.

I would not defend Roger in any matter, but this is just another confirmation of why anonymity is important.

But yep, taxes and all the laws regarding them are indeed crazy in the US.  However, in other countries the actual tax rates are even higher (though I don't know how complex the laws are, or how fucking hard they make it for the average person to file their taxes without resorting to expensive software or hiring an accountant).  I don't think the IRS is looking to put people in jail necessarily, but they just make doing your taxes unnecessarily difficult/costly as I just said.  The amount of money involved in this case is huge, but for "little people" who owe back taxes or get caught up in tax issues, the IRS usually settles with them in the form of a fine, penalties, whatever and they don't end up in prison.

Well they both went to Spain.

For 99%+ of the population of the US income taxes (the IRS) are actually easy. It's just that most people get caught up in the 'you need to have an accountant' or the 'you need a tax professional' For under $50 you can get software that will do it all for you. Even moderately complex things like crypto trading.

As for not paying your taxes most of the time there is no penalty if you don't not pay on a regular basis. Keep it up and they will nail you. Mess up here and there and you will own whatever you owe + interest. The flip side is also true, if you mess up and the government owes you money you get (minimal) interest.

Yes you can always get 'that guy' who works for the IRS who wants to nail you to the wall. But for the most part it's not that bad.

Stale / local / sales tax / property tax and all those other things are different but not really part of this discussion.

-Dave

Lesson, never go to Spain.

Never go to any of the US-allied countries if you owe tax money to the US. The outcome wouldn't have been any different if he had visited Portugal or Germany instead of Spain. They caught the btc-e CEO in which country? Greece? They can get you anywhere unless you are in Russia/China.

The better solution is: don't get indebted to the US.

Al Capone couldn't get away, McAfee couldn't get away. You won't get away too.

They can get you anywhere unless you are in Russia/China.

Taxes are taxes. We should do our duty to pay them, even if we don't like how "unfair" the system is. What's best? To pay taxes and live "free" (as in liberty)? Or evade them and face serious consequences in the long run?

Roger Ver made a mistake by revealing his identity to the public. If he were anonymous, he'd have a higher chance of not getting arrested. Even so, I believe he should've paid his taxes to settle things once and for all with the IRS. Now he's ultimately paying the price of what he did. Expect to see other crypto players getting arrested by the US government as it expands its outreach. Perhaps, this will force the crypto industry to move somewhere else?

As far as I can see he logged on to the forum yesterday, which I find laughable. He's in jail and has access to the internet? I hope it's somehow controlled for a very limited time per day like the time you're allowed to make a phone call. Mostly because crimes can be committed over the internet. If you are deprived of physical freedom you should be deprived of freedom in cyberspace.

~snip~
Topic will be updated with more information later, but I am interested to hear your opinion about this.

Never go to any of the US-allied countries if you owe tax money to the US. The outcome wouldn't have been any different if he had visited Portugal or Germany instead of Spain. They caught the btc-e CEO in which country? Greece? They can get you anywhere unless you are in Russia/China.

The better solution is: don't get indebted to the US.

Al Capone couldn't get away, McAfee couldn't get away. You won't get away too.

The problem is, people didn’t know what to do with their gains on bitcoin back in the day. We are talking about the 2013-2014 era if I am not mistaken. During those years, what was the US’ position on bitcoin? Most legal authorities didn’t know what to do with it. Coinbase (the exchange) was only 1 year old. Bitcoin itself was 5 years old. Let alone the taxman, nobody really knew shit.

This is absolutely right, my lecturer was a woman who was in charge on these things and she told me that they simply didn't know what to do with Bitcoin and in my country, for that reason, she told me that she (and her team) lets people to not pay taxes because first of all, they don't know what to do with it and second of all, if people make money, let them make money without taxing only in this case, for a while.

Actually the IRS rules are pretty straight forward. I've never had any problems following them in dealing with my BTC earnings and transactions.

Then again - I'm not a mega millionaire hell bent on looking for every legal loophole and trying questionable interpretations of them to try and evade taxes.

This is absolutely right, my lecturer was a woman who was in charge on these things and she told me that they simply didn't know what to do with Bitcoin and in my country, for that reason, she told me that she (and her team) lets people to not pay taxes because first of all, they don't know what to do with it and second of all, if people make money, let them make money without taxing only in this case, for a while.

Not sure who told you that but it was 100% wrong.
Does not matter where income / profit come from it all has to be declared.

The problem is, people didn’t know what to do with their gains on bitcoin back in the day. We are talking about the 2013-2014 era if I am not mistaken. During those years, what was the US’ position on bitcoin? Most legal authorities didn’t know what to do with it. Coinbase (the exchange) was only 1 year old. Bitcoin itself was 5 years old. Let alone the taxman, nobody really knew shit.

I am pretty sure many US citizens didn’t pay shit from the crypto capital gains they have made 10 years ago. Somehow I feel like they hand picked Roger. Maybe it is because he was an easy target since he have lots of money.

A few years ago I remember that Peter Schiff also got into trouble with the IRS but unlike Roger, Peter knows the tax shit very well since his father died in prison for evading taxes. So he actually got an apology from the IRS in the end because there was no wrongdoing.

Another fucked up thing is, they are holding him responsible for something that happened 10 years ago. In my country tax investigations can only include the last 5 years. So if they didn’t catch you for 5 years, you’ll not be getting punished ever again for whatever you did or didn’t do. I guess there is no expiration date on tax evasion in the US. Me no likey

not a lawyer or tax person but in the usa its pretty clear.. if you make profit you pay taxes. makes no difference how the profit was made.. tag sale, ebay, work, whatever. pay the tax on it in USD.

now long term vs short term gains etc might be an issue back then.

iirc my cpa had me report my gpu mined coin sales as straight income back around the 2013 timeframe. id have to check records to be sure.

Not sure who told you that but it was 100% wrong.
Does not matter where income / profit come from it all has to be declared.
Always has been.

https://taxfoundation.org/blog/irs-guidance-thieves-drug-dealers-and-corrupt-officials/

-Dave

Tax laws will get more crazy during the next years, after all many countries have huge levels of debt and not everything can be fixed by printing more money.

What governments need is to get more money from their citizens in the form of taxes, so prepare yourself for even more draconian laws to be enacted, even of this means that at the end governments will get less tax revenue as the Laffer curve takes place and a counter-productive effect is achieved instead.

That's why some people believe "taxation is theft". You get charged taxes on top of taxes, leaving you with little money in return. Unclear tax laws will ultimately perjudicate taxpayers in the long run. You could be labeled a "tax evader" without even knowing it. Especially if you earn money with crypto.

The same fate of Roger Ver awaits many crypto holders in the US. You can't hide from "Big Brother", can you? :D

Taxation is not theft, taxes are necessary to have a strong country but the problem is that taxes are collected from regular citizens and abused by the rich and politicians, they use collected taxes for their own benefit, to buy mansions, have great holidays and etc...

I think that if tax rate will be normal, people won't try to find ways to avoid it. Low tax rates leave people with more money, leave companies with high revenue and doesn't force them to find a loophole in offshored because low % doesn't worth the headache when difference isn't huge. More money motivates both, people and companies to produce more good and improves their well-being. Collected taxes help the government to do many good things for citizens, to build a better country, improve infrastructure and etc... But if they collect taxes, they shouldn't start printing money because printing money is another form of tax and that's very unfair game for citizens. If I have to pay 10% tax, let me pay 10% tax and don't force me to pay the debt that you take.

Interesting that he wasn't extradited. I don't understand how the US can hold a tax trial in Spain.

I never liked Roger, especially after that video where he showed us the finger, but what amazes me is that he sold so many BTC for less than $1k - that's one.

Then the part where he changed citizenship and was required to pay exit tax - like WTF? The country bullies you, you decide you don't want to live there anymore, so they want you to pay them for leaving? What kind of law is that? I'm sure many people aren't even aware of such rule.

It's also amazing that Ver hasn't been a US citizen for a decade and they come up with that right now? I feel like this isn't a coincidence and either some model citizen reminded the IRS about him, or maybe it has something to do with the recent attack on bitcoin wallets.

...He had to surrender his passport therefore cannot leave the country....

If the cops have to chase you they are bringing a beating with them.