MemoryDealers aka Roger Ver Arrested!

[nullama]

~snip~
Topic will be updated with more information later, but I am interested to hear your opinion about this.

I don't really know too much about Roger Ver, but I watched a few videos he posted.

He was basically living in a tiny island, St. Kitts and Nevis, where he is a citizen of.

He mentioned in the video how great it was that they don't have to pay taxes there.

No idea about the details, but it seemed to me that he was too focused on the tax part.

Maybe he didn't pay taxes to US when he stopped being a citizen around 2014?, no idea.

[mindrust]

No tax countries usually don’t offer the best deal. Unless you are obsessed with paying no taxes, sometimes (and it is actually more often than sometimes) it actually makes more sense to live in a country where the tax rates are high because you are getting “something” in return. St Kitts might look great on paper but how many flights land there? How is the infrastructure? Hurricanes? Crime? Laws? So many questions.

I have seen many people who don’t realize the real value of their own assets. They think whatever stuff they don’t own is always more valuable than what they own. They make haste and buy lots of stuff which they don’t really need because they didn’t think it through completely.

In this case a US citizenship probably offers a better deal than a St Kitts citizenship but somehow Roger thought otherwise. I think he got bamboozled.

[shield132]

Never go to any of the US-allied countries if you owe tax money to the US. The outcome wouldn't have been any different if he had visited Portugal or Germany instead of Spain. They caught the btc-e CEO in which country? Greece? They can get you anywhere unless you are in Russia/China.

The better solution is: don't get indebted to the US.

Al Capone couldn't get away, McAfee couldn't get away. You won't get away too.

It was a joke when I said don't go to spain. You are right, any US-allied country is dangerous if you owe tax money to the US but at the same time, non-US ally countries are as dangerous if not the most dangerous. For example, in Russia, rich people often end up dead, mostly those who go against Putin's will. Rich people's business isn't as easy as people make it sound to be, if you don't pay taxes, you have to have very good connections with top elites or you are in trouble.

Going to China is probably the safest route but there is a completely different culture, work ethic, language and people visually. Btw like you said, don't get indebted to the US and you are fine.

The problem is, people didn’t know what to do with their gains on bitcoin back in the day. We are talking about the 2013-2014 era if I am not mistaken. During those years, what was the US’ position on bitcoin? Most legal authorities didn’t know what to do with it. Coinbase (the exchange) was only 1 year old. Bitcoin itself was 5 years old. Let alone the taxman, nobody really knew shit.

This is absolutely right, my lecturer was a woman who was in charge on these things and she told me that they simply didn't know what to do with Bitcoin and in my country, for that reason, she told me that she (and her team) lets people to not pay taxes because first of all, they don't know what to do with it and second of all, if people make money, let them make money without taxing only in this case, for a while.

[vapourminer]

The problem is, people didn’t know what to do with their gains on bitcoin back in the day. We are talking about the 2013-2014 era if I am not mistaken. During those years, what was the US’ position on bitcoin? Most legal authorities didn’t know what to do with it. Coinbase (the exchange) was only 1 year old. Bitcoin itself was 5 years old. Let alone the taxman, nobody really knew shit.

This is absolutely right, my lecturer was a woman who was in charge on these things and she told me that they simply didn't know what to do with Bitcoin and in my country, for that reason, she told me that she (and her team) lets people to not pay taxes because first of all, they don't know what to do with it and second of all, if people make money, let them make money without taxing only in this case, for a while.

not a lawyer or tax person but in the usa its pretty clear.. if you make profit you pay taxes. makes no difference how the profit was made.. tag sale, ebay, work, whatever. pay the tax on it in USD.

now long term vs short term gains etc might be an issue back then.

iirc my cpa had me report my gpu mined coin sales as straight income back around the 2013 timeframe. id have to check records to be sure.

[Kelward]

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution....

Actually the IRS rules are pretty straight forward. I've never had any problems following them in dealing with my BTC earnings and transactions.

Then again - I'm not a mega millionaire hell bent on looking for every legal loophole and trying questionable interpretations of them to try and evade taxes.

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, people should learn how the tax law of where they're doing business works. I don't think that a sane country will go outside their constitution to prosecute anybody that is doing genuine business within their country. This is a common practice among the very rich people, they want to make all the money and be greedy not to pay tax in the country that gave them the enabling environment to do their businesses. If Mr. Van, has a case case against him in the US, them let him go ahead and defend himself, I want to believe that America, is a democratic country, where they respect the rules of law.

[DaveF]

The problem is, people didn’t know what to do with their gains on bitcoin back in the day. We are talking about the 2013-2014 era if I am not mistaken. During those years, what was the US’ position on bitcoin? Most legal authorities didn’t know what to do with it. Coinbase (the exchange) was only 1 year old. Bitcoin itself was 5 years old. Let alone the taxman, nobody really knew shit.

This is absolutely right, my lecturer was a woman who was in charge on these things and she told me that they simply didn't know what to do with Bitcoin and in my country, for that reason, she told me that she (and her team) lets people to not pay taxes because first of all, they don't know what to do with it and second of all, if people make money, let them make money without taxing only in this case, for a while.

Not sure who told you that but it was 100% wrong.
Does not matter where income / profit come from it all has to be declared.
Always has been.

https://taxfoundation.org/blog/irs-guidance-thieves-drug-dealers-and-corrupt-officials/

-Dave

[franky1]

Not sure who told you that but it was 100% wrong.
Does not matter where income / profit come from it all has to be declared.

IF you are american born.. your stuck in a system where by even if you work internationally/currency outside us jurisdiction you still have to declare it US
even if you want to renounce your citizenship you have to declare everything to the US before you renounce

other countries are different
here in the uk i can go (as a UK citizen) to dubai and work tax free in a different currency and come back to the UK with all that money and not have to declare it
if i wanted to change citizenship i dont have all/as many of the hurdles of tax that the US has when changing citizenship.

however in R.Vers case.. he had a bad tax adviser that made many mistakes over the years. and some either in conjunction with ver or under vers order. some were obvious evasions(rather than avoidance's) but essentially the US tax code is the pittful. its not designed to be clear and straightforward. thats why if you are american you need to actually learn tax law or get a good tax adviser that specialises in other currencies of other jurisdictions

the point of us tax code law being complicated is simple. it creates middlemen. if the tax code was simple. they wouldnt need to hire accountants, tax advisers, etc... they would all be able to simply self file using standard templates

[Abiky]

The problem is, people didn’t know what to do with their gains on bitcoin back in the day. We are talking about the 2013-2014 era if I am not mistaken. During those years, what was the US’ position on bitcoin? Most legal authorities didn’t know what to do with it. Coinbase (the exchange) was only 1 year old. Bitcoin itself was 5 years old. Let alone the taxman, nobody really knew shit.

I am pretty sure many US citizens didn’t pay shit from the crypto capital gains they have made 10 years ago. Somehow I feel like they hand picked Roger. Maybe it is because he was an easy target since he have lots of money.

A few years ago I remember that Peter Schiff also got into trouble with the IRS but unlike Roger, Peter knows the tax shit very well since his father died in prison for evading taxes. So he actually got an apology from the IRS in the end because there was no wrongdoing.

Yes. I've forgot there was a lot of confusion back then regarding crypto taxation. Regulations were unclear, and the industry was just starting to blossom. It was the wild west. So there could be many others like Roger who "missed" paying their taxes on their crypto income. We could blame the US government (particularly the IRS) for this.

I'm afraid the "witch hunt" will continue until they catch every person who "evaded" taxes. Those who're beginning to make substantial amounts of money with crypto in the US, better pay their taxes on-time before it gets too late. Hopefully, things will get better for the industry in America over the long term. 

[mindrust]

Another fucked up thing is, they are holding him responsible for something that happened 10 years ago. In my country tax investigations can only include the last 5 years. So if they didn’t catch you for 5 years, you’ll not be getting punished ever again for whatever you did or didn’t do. I guess there is no expiration date on tax evasion in the US. Me no likey

[wxa7115]

Another fucked up thing is, they are holding him responsible for something that happened 10 years ago. In my country tax investigations can only include the last 5 years. So if they didn’t catch you for 5 years, you’ll not be getting punished ever again for whatever you did or didn’t do. I guess there is no expiration date on tax evasion in the US. Me no likey

Tax laws will get more crazy during the next years, after all many countries have huge levels of debt and not everything can be fixed by printing more money.

What governments need is to get more money from their citizens in the form of taxes, so prepare yourself for even more draconian laws to be enacted, even of this means that at the end governments will get less tax revenue as the Laffer curve takes place and a counter-productive effect is achieved instead.

[shield132]

The problem is, people didn’t know what to do with their gains on bitcoin back in the day. We are talking about the 2013-2014 era if I am not mistaken. During those years, what was the US’ position on bitcoin? Most legal authorities didn’t know what to do with it. Coinbase (the exchange) was only 1 year old. Bitcoin itself was 5 years old. Let alone the taxman, nobody really knew shit.

This is absolutely right, my lecturer was a woman who was in charge on these things and she told me that they simply didn't know what to do with Bitcoin and in my country, for that reason, she told me that she (and her team) lets people to not pay taxes because first of all, they don't know what to do with it and second of all, if people make money, let them make money without taxing only in this case, for a while.

not a lawyer or tax person but in the usa its pretty clear.. if you make profit you pay taxes. makes no difference how the profit was made.. tag sale, ebay, work, whatever. pay the tax on it in USD.

now long term vs short term gains etc might be an issue back then.

iirc my cpa had me report my gpu mined coin sales as straight income back around the 2013 timeframe. id have to check records to be sure.

That's insane, you pay taxes on your profit but no one compensates your losses, that's basically robbery. In my country we rarely pay taxes but recently more and more regulations and taxes have been forced, thanks to the EU.
Btw if you have to pay so many taxes in the USA, why do so many people cross the Mexico-USA border, and sell houses to move in the USA? Also as far as I know, the US citizen should pay taxes even if he moves to another country.

Not sure who told you that but it was 100% wrong.
Does not matter where income / profit come from it all has to be declared.
Always has been.

https://taxfoundation.org/blog/irs-guidance-thieves-drug-dealers-and-corrupt-officials/

-Dave

I wasn't talking about the USA, I was talking about my country, Georgia.

[Abiky]

Tax laws will get more crazy during the next years, after all many countries have huge levels of debt and not everything can be fixed by printing more money.

What governments need is to get more money from their citizens in the form of taxes, so prepare yourself for even more draconian laws to be enacted, even of this means that at the end governments will get less tax revenue as the Laffer curve takes place and a counter-productive effect is achieved instead.

That's why some people believe "taxation is theft". You get charged taxes on top of taxes, leaving you with little money in return. Unclear tax laws will ultimately perjudicate taxpayers in the long run. You could be labeled a "tax evader" without even knowing it. Especially if you earn money with crypto.

The same fate of Roger Ver awaits many crypto holders in the US. You can't hide from "Big Brother", can you?

[shield132]

Tax laws will get more crazy during the next years, after all many countries have huge levels of debt and not everything can be fixed by printing more money.

What governments need is to get more money from their citizens in the form of taxes, so prepare yourself for even more draconian laws to be enacted, even of this means that at the end governments will get less tax revenue as the Laffer curve takes place and a counter-productive effect is achieved instead.

That's why some people believe "taxation is theft". You get charged taxes on top of taxes, leaving you with little money in return. Unclear tax laws will ultimately perjudicate taxpayers in the long run. You could be labeled a "tax evader" without even knowing it. Especially if you earn money with crypto.

The same fate of Roger Ver awaits many crypto holders in the US. You can't hide from "Big Brother", can you?

Taxation is not theft, taxes are necessary to have a strong country but the problem is that taxes are collected from regular citizens and abused by the rich and politicians, they use collected taxes for their own benefit, to buy mansions, have great holidays and etc...

I think that if tax rate will be normal, people won't try to find ways to avoid it. Low tax rates leave people with more money, leave companies with high revenue and doesn't force them to find a loophole in offshored because low % doesn't worth the headache when difference isn't huge. More money motivates both, people and companies to produce more good and improves their well-being. Collected taxes help the government to do many good things for citizens, to build a better country, improve infrastructure and etc... But if they collect taxes, they shouldn't start printing money because printing money is another form of tax and that's very unfair game for citizens. If I have to pay 10% tax, let me pay 10% tax and don't force me to pay the debt that you take.

[wxa7115]

That's why some people believe "taxation is theft". You get charged taxes on top of taxes, leaving you with little money in return. Unclear tax laws will ultimately perjudicate taxpayers in the long run. You could be labeled a "tax evader" without even knowing it. Especially if you earn money with crypto.

The same fate of Roger Ver awaits many crypto holders in the US. You can't hide from "Big Brother", can you?

Taxation is not theft, taxes are necessary to have a strong country but the problem is that taxes are collected from regular citizens and abused by the rich and politicians, they use collected taxes for their own benefit, to buy mansions, have great holidays and etc...

I think that if tax rate will be normal, people won't try to find ways to avoid it. Low tax rates leave people with more money, leave companies with high revenue and doesn't force them to find a loophole in offshored because low % doesn't worth the headache when difference isn't huge. More money motivates both, people and companies to produce more good and improves their well-being. Collected taxes help the government to do many good things for citizens, to build a better country, improve infrastructure and etc... But if they collect taxes, they shouldn't start printing money because printing money is another form of tax and that's very unfair game for citizens. If I have to pay 10% tax, let me pay 10% tax and don't force me to pay the debt that you take.

Very often those that make those claims do not mean it literally, what they mean is that besides paying federal income taxes they also need to pay local, property, inflation and sale taxes, so the amount paid to governments is many times higher than what is stated by the law.

So in a way, everyone spends a great deal of their lives working for the benefit of the government while receiving little or nothing in return, which makes some people believe this is a disguised form of slavery, a claim a bit too dramatic for my tastes, but I can see where they are coming from.

[dkbit98]

Roger Ver was released on bail from Spanish prison and he had to pay $163,000 for this.
He won't be able to leave the Spain because he handed over his passport, and he agreed to confirm his presence to court all the time.
His lawyers confirmed that Roger is not going to become a fugitive and run away, and it's going to be interesting to follow this case in fiture.
https://news.todayq.com/bitcoin-jesus-bail-drama-unfolds-in-spain/

[nutildah]

Interesting that he wasn't extradited. I don't understand how the US can hold a tax trial in Spain.

Really wish they'd stop using the term 'Bitcoin Jesus'. Supposedly, as I understand it, Jesus never hoarded wealth or celebrated it. 'Bitcoin Evangelist' is far more appropriate, but 'Bcash Shill' is even moreso.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

Interesting that he wasn't extradited. I don't understand how the US can hold a tax trial in Spain.

As far as I can see he has been granted parole but faces possible extradition to the USA, meaning that the trial would be held in the USA, but preliminary investigations are being carried out in Spain. It is a bit confusing, as I do not understand if these investigations are being done because he is accused of something in Spain as well or as a kind of collaboration with the US authorities.

https://es.cointelegraph.com/news/roger-ver-bail-spain-extradition-united-states

Bitcoin Jesus se enfrenta a su extradición tras quedar en libertad bajo fianza en España

[JollyGood]

The finger in that video was seen by many and it damaged his standing. He also made a comment about how much wealth he had compared to the interviewer and that too was unacceptable behaviour by Ver.

At the time the events took place, Ver was happy to receive as much publicity as possible and he even went out of his way to ensure he was on the stage giving speeches and participating in debates around many crypto exhibitions around the world. If he has kept a low profile and not gone on a self-promoting media round then maybe things would have worked out different or him.

Having said that, if $48 million is being claimed then that is something Ver should be able to pay reasonably fast because he has the resources (unless he spent/lost most of his Bitcoin holding).

I never liked Roger, especially after that video where he showed us the finger, but what amazes me is that he sold so many BTC for less than $1k - that's one.

Then the part where he changed citizenship and was required to pay exit tax - like WTF? The country bullies you, you decide you don't want to live there anymore, so they want you to pay them for leaving? What kind of law is that? I'm sure many people aren't even aware of such rule.

It's also amazing that Ver hasn't been a US citizen for a decade and they come up with that right now? I feel like this isn't a coincidence and either some model citizen reminded the IRS about him, or maybe it has something to do with the recent attack on bitcoin wallets.

[JollyGood]

Nothing much has happened since the last post in this thread.

According to this article that is a few days old now, Ver is living in Mallorca since his bail was accepted. His lawyer managed to get him out of prison on bail payment of 150,000 Euro. He had to surrender his passport therefore cannot leave the country.

From what it seems, he arrived in Barcelona, Spain in his yacht and was arrested. The Department of Justice were tracking his movements. Somehow they knew he owned around 131,000 bitcoins when he renounced his US citizenship and became a citizen of St. Kitts and Nevis.

Eventually, he will be extradited unless he can secure a deal with the Department of Justice to make a tax payment in return for them dropping their case against him.

[DaveF]

...He had to surrender his passport therefore cannot leave the country....

Stupid American Question: I know in the Schengen zone you can drive from country to country without stopping at borders. Yes, technically he is on an island at the moment, but if say Ver was in Madrid what would stop him from hopping in a car and driving to France? Is there any kind of monitoring that is done?

Kind of like here in the US, unless they make you wear an ankle monitor you can in theory hop in a car and go anywhere in the US. It's not legal and if you are caught there are penalties but there is nothing stopping you.

OTOH:

If the cops have to chase you they are bringing a beating with them.

-Dave