MemoryDealers aka Roger Ver Arrested!

[mindrust]

I have massive respect for the man Roger. I have read his history and the excellent job he did with bitcoin in its early days. However, as far as I know, no one is above the law and it must be respected. And from what theymos has written about him, he seem like a great guy who kinda lost his way. I think he may have made a lot of mistakes and burnt a lot of bridges in his pursuits which did not align with BTC. We seeing cyberpunk fiction beginning to play out just like in an idealist novel.

He didn't murder anybody though. Somehow tax-evasion is in a gray area for me. Since the gov uses that tax money in a very stupid way most of the time, I too don't like paying taxes. On the top of that, they print money which is another tax. If they are collecting taxes, why are they printing money? If they are printing money why are they collecting taxes? This shit is so broken.

I expected Roger to be more clever than that. He owns a company, his net worth is millions of dollars and he is getting arrested for not being careful. He could have avoided that situation easily. What a way to go. He probably didn't do any of these willingly unlike McAfee.

But then, this guy was selling firecrackers on ebay and did time for that too. Again I believe he did that because he honestly thought it wasn't illegal. This dude needs to get a reality check every once in a while.

Maybe it was this state of distorted mind  of his allowed him to be a early bitcoin adopter. He imagined the shit most people couldn't 13 years ago but that had its own drawbacks. Sometimes his imagination is too skewed for the real world like we have seen it with his bcash.

[coolcoinz]

...
Then the part where he changed citizenship and was required to pay exit tax - like WTF? The country bullies you, you decide you don't want to live there anymore, so they want you to pay them for leaving? What kind of law is that? I'm sure many people aren't even aware of such rule.
...

FYI: The US 'exit tax' has been in effect since 2008 and folks in the USA with money have always been well aware of it. Ver obviously was and paid what he thought would be enough to throw the IRS off his scent. Problem is -- he apparently took it further and lied about his companies BTC holdings while extracting a sizeable portion of it for himself.

Yup, Ver is obviously guilty, but I'm amazed how ridiculous some of these laws are. Maybe he is guilty of omission, maybe he had too many bitcoins to manage and could not remember about every single one.
Maybe by the time he had to sell it, he thought he was already a citizen of another country so he doesn't have to pay taxes in a country he doesn't live in, which to me would be obvious.
I lived in a few countries in my life, traveled a bit and stupid laws and government oppression always make the rebel in me scream. I wouldn't put someone in prison for hiding his bitcoin, that's for sure, especially that bitcoin wasn't treated as money and was largely ignored and treated like fool's gold back in 2013 and 2014 when he was leaving the US.

[m2017]

U.S. decided to empty all the “fat wallets” with bitcoin? They should have publicly stated “thank you guys for pumping up bitcoin and now we will take on this asset ourselves”, when the whole world believed in this cryptocurrency and billions of capital were poured in. The right time to get your hands on this is when BTC has gained value. It sounds slightly absurd, but it seems to me that independent individual large BTC-holders (like Roger Ver) will be forced to part with (at least part of) their savings, because it is easy to influence (find and force) such people, and the reward will be impressive.

It's funny that yesterday the state pretended that bitcoin was a candy wrapper, but today they arrest you for it.

[PrimeNumber7]

I'm curious about how the statute of limitations will apply. Much of the indictment refers to alleged crimes happening many years ago.

It appears the statute of limitations for tax fraud is 6 years. I haven't read the indictment, but it is strange they are charging him this long after the alleged crimes.
 
edit to add:
I just read the indictment, and it seems like the statute of limitations has expired for many of the crimes alleged in the indictment. I am not sure how the government got around this, (maybe a covid exception?). According to the indictment, Ver needed to file various tax forms (and use the mail to do so) years after he renounced his citizenship.

I read the full indictment, and it looks pretty bad. The thing where he allegedly decided in 2016 to file a 2011 gift tax return saying that he had gifted bitcoins to his partner stood out as especially bad to me.

I think that portion of the indictment raises an interesting question of "how exactly can you legally transfer ownership of coin to another person?"

From a technical standpoint, this is easy, you simply publish a transaction that gets confirmed.

From a legal standpoint, this is more complicated. Most centralized exchanges will update a database/create a business record that reflects the updated ownership.

(I wonder: why are they allowed to use quotes from emails between Ver and his lawyer?)

Attorney-client privilege only covers legal advice. A discussion with your lawyer about a baseball game is not protected by attorney-client privilege.

[BADecker]

Here's the real reason why they are after Ver. Go to the site and look at the list of things RV did.

Watch this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gREaPClHWqg.


Crypto veterans call out DOJ for targeting Roger Ver a decade after he left US


https://cointelegraph.com/news/crypto-veterans-call-out-doj-targeting-roger-ver
Many members of the crypto community criticized the U.S. government for its indictment against Ver, with some calling it part of the broader anti-crypto stance of the Biden administration.

The arrest of early Bitcoin investor and Bitcoin cash proponent Roger Ver on tax evasion charges in the United States has invoked strong reactions from the crypto community.

Many within the community criticized the arrest, with some justifying it over Ver's adoption of an anti-Bitcoin stance in the latter part of his career.

Dan Held, a long-term Bitcoin proponent, was among the few who lauded Ver's arrest, saying, "he's been a net negative for Bitcoin."

Crypto-centered X account Pledditor suspected that Ver's arrest is related to his name popping up in several investigations, such as those involving Binance, Genesis and Three Arrows Capital.

Go to the website for this picture.

Kim Dotcom, a crypto veteran who has also been on the receiving end of government enforcement, said that the indictment against Ver has nothing to do with tax evasion but rather a “witch hunt against a man who turned his back on U.S. wars and malicious foreign and domestic policy.” He added: “Roger is a supporter of Julian Assange and press freedom not just with words but with actions.”
...

[franky1]

I'm curious about how the statute of limitations will apply. Much of the indictment refers to alleged crimes happening many years ago.

It appears the statute of limitations for tax fraud is 6 years.

nope.. its much longer
https://wiggamlaw.com/blog/irs-10-year-back-taxes-statute-of-limitations/

Can the IRS Take More Than 10 Years to Collect Tax Debts?

In some cases, the IRS can take more than 10 years to collect tax debts. This happens when an event causes the clock to stop ticking on the statute of limitations and the deadline gets extended. This is called tolling the statute of limitations.

To give you an example, imagine that you have five years left until the statute of limitations expires. Then, you take an action that pauses the clock for two months. At the end of those two months, you still have five years left on the statute of limitations. If the clock had not stopped, you would only have four years and 10 months left.
Tolling the Statute of Limitations

Here are actions that toll the collection statute:

   Applying for an offer in compromise — This tolls the statute from the day you apply to the 30 days after the IRS rejects the offer.
    Requesting an installment agreement — When you apply for a payment plan, the statute is tolled while your application is pending.
    Filing an innocent spouse claim — The statute tolls on the day you apply, and then it restarts at a range of different times depending on the situation. It only tolls the statute for the spouse who applies. It doesn’t affect the CSED for the other spouse.
    Filing bankruptcy — This tolls the statute during the bankruptcy case and for six months afterward.
    Filing a Taxpayer Assistance Order — The statute is tolled from the day you file the assistance order until the Taxpayer Advocate issues a decision on your request.
    Appealing a collection action through a collection due process hearing — The clock stops from the time you appeal until 90 days after you receive a decision from appeals.
   Leaving the country for six or more months in a row — In this case, the statute does not expire until at least six months after you get back to the United States.

in short being an expat in another country means the clock stops after 6 months when you left. but when you return they can start the clock again after 6 months of arriving. so even if you left the country in 2014 and returned in say 2022.. the deadline of a 2014 case only starts its first year in 2023

also if you stay out the country for 10-20-50 years. then returned. the clock doesnt go away due to length of time away. it just starts ticking again when you return for more then 6 months even after [insert any time away]

[PrimeNumber7]

I'm curious about how the statute of limitations will apply. Much of the indictment refers to alleged crimes happening many years ago.

It appears the statute of limitations for tax fraud is 6 years.

nope.. its much longer
https://wiggamlaw.com/blog/irs-10-year-back-taxes-statute-of-limitations/

Can the IRS Take More Than 10 Years to Collect Tax Debts?

In some cases, the IRS can take more than 10 years to collect tax debts. This happens when an event causes the clock to stop ticking on the statute of limitations and the deadline gets extended. This is called tolling the statute of limitations.

To give you an example, imagine that you have five years left until the statute of limitations expires. Then, you take an action that pauses the clock for two months. At the end of those two months, you still have five years left on the statute of limitations. If the clock had not stopped, you would only have four years and 10 months left.
Tolling the Statute of Limitations

Here are actions that toll the collection statute:

    Applying for an offer in compromise — This tolls the statute from the day you apply to the 30 days after the IRS rejects the offer.
    Requesting an installment agreement — When you apply for a payment plan, the statute is tolled while your application is pending.
    Filing an innocent spouse claim — The statute tolls on the day you apply, and then it restarts at a range of different times depending on the situation. It only tolls the statute for the spouse who applies. It doesn’t affect the CSED for the other spouse.
    Filing bankruptcy — This tolls the statute during the bankruptcy case and for six months afterward.
    Filing a Taxpayer Assistance Order — The statute is tolled from the day you file the assistance order until the Taxpayer Advocate issues a decision on your request.
    Appealing a collection action through a collection due process hearing — The clock stops from the time you appeal until 90 days after you receive a decision from appeals.
    Leaving the country for six or more months in a row — In this case, the statute does not expire until at least six months after you get back to the United States.

in short being an expat in another country means the clock stops when you left. but when you return they can start the clock again. so even if you left the country in 2014 and returned in say 2022.. the deadline of a 2014 case only starts its first year in 2022

That article is referring to collecting back taxes, a civil matter. I was referring to the criminal prosecution for tax fraud.

[franky1]

I'm curious about how the statute of limitations will apply. Much of the indictment refers to alleged crimes happening many years ago.

It appears the statute of limitations for tax fraud is 6 years.

nope.. its much longer
https://wiggamlaw.com/blog/irs-10-year-back-taxes-statute-of-limitations/

Can the IRS Take More Than 10 Years to Collect Tax Debts?

In some cases, the IRS can take more than 10 years to collect tax debts. This happens when an event causes the clock to stop ticking on the statute of limitations and the deadline gets extended. This is called tolling the statute of limitations.

To give you an example, imagine that you have five years left until the statute of limitations expires. Then, you take an action that pauses the clock for two months. At the end of those two months, you still have five years left on the statute of limitations. If the clock had not stopped, you would only have four years and 10 months left.
Tolling the Statute of Limitations

Here are actions that toll the collection statute:

   Applying for an offer in compromise — This tolls the statute from the day you apply to the 30 days after the IRS rejects the offer.
    Requesting an installment agreement — When you apply for a payment plan, the statute is tolled while your application is pending.
    Filing an innocent spouse claim — The statute tolls on the day you apply, and then it restarts at a range of different times depending on the situation. It only tolls the statute for the spouse who applies. It doesn’t affect the CSED for the other spouse.
    Filing bankruptcy — This tolls the statute during the bankruptcy case and for six months afterward.
    Filing a Taxpayer Assistance Order — The statute is tolled from the day you file the assistance order until the Taxpayer Advocate issues a decision on your request.
    Appealing a collection action through a collection due process hearing — The clock stops from the time you appeal until 90 days after you receive a decision from appeals.
   Leaving the country for six or more months in a row — In this case, the statute does not expire until at least six months after you get back to the United States.

in short being an expat in another country means the clock stops when you left. but when you return they can start the clock again. so even if you left the country in 2014 and returned in say 2022.. the deadline of a 2014 case only starts its first year in 2022

That article is referring to collecting back taxes, a civil matter. I was referring to the criminal prosecution for tax fraud.

step 1. 10+ years statute about collecting taxes. which yep is not 6 years and has not expired due to what i referenced
which ver didnt pay(they say $48m IRS loss) which triggered step 2

step 2 new criminal case, which that can do within the (step 1)statute of limitations, to then file a criminal case to get extradition ball rolling
this new case which found abnormalities in the original civil case paperwork thus got the courts to move forward to get the international authorities to arrest him in spain and seek extradition back to the US to answer to step 1 and 2 claims/charges against ver

in short.. back in 2014.. his first 2 mistakes were
a. not accounting, documenting filing accurate holdings.. and not paying the tax owed
b. expatriating, thus pausing the clock.. meaning even if he left for 1-100 years IRS can still investigate him... and they did 9 years later

[PrimeNumber7]

I don't think that is right. Civil and criminal liability are two separate things.

[franky1]

I don't think that is right. Civil and criminal liability are two separate things.

the civil case did not expire!!!!
this gave the IRS ammo to re look over the filings, paperwork, documentations.. and re do an investigation..  and then due to lack of expiration.. file new criminal case in the last couple years

get it yet

[Soros Shorts]

That article is referring to collecting back taxes, a civil matter. I was referring to the criminal prosecution for tax fraud.

According to the indictment in late  2018 he did file form 1040NR for tax year 2017 where did not report the income he got by expatriating bitcoins sent from MemoryDealers and Agilestar to himself. That did not happen outside of the statute of limitations, regardless of whether clocks were stopped or not.

[Medusah]

If that's the case, I wonder who will be the next victim? Vitalik Buterin, perhaps?

I wouldn't concern myself with Buterin.  Any developer who has revealed their true identity should anticipate scrutiny from authorities.  The more influential the individual, the more advantageous it is for the government.  Buterin hard forked Ethereum to undo a hacker's transaction and subsequently implemented another called the "merge", which transitioned it to proof-of-stake.  That's all I need to know about his intentions. 

On the top of that, they print money which is another tax. If they are collecting taxes, why are they printing money?

When you print money, you're stealing money equally from all fiat currency owners.  Taxes, on the other hand, offer more flexibility.  For example, they can levy a higher percentage on people earning $10,000 per month compared to those earning $1,000.

Resorting to printing money seems more like a final option.  Plus, not all countries have a central bank (see EU member nations).

[dothebeats]

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution.

Let's see as more details unfold regarding this case.

- Jay -

As someone who worked with helping people file their taxes in the US, I understand why there is a huge number of citizens that do not know how to file for their taxes and would rather pay other people to do it for them, even if it means that it might be an additional amount equivalent to the tax that they should be paying. This goes out to individuals that are earning modestly and quite 'comfortably', but I'm not certain about people who are earning millions from whatever venture they have.

I'm pretty sure Roger Ver knows his taxes. He may have forgotten that he's still obligated to pay his taxes (that's how absurd it is) even though in his mind, he no longer has this obligation to the US.

[Sandra_hakeem]

50M in taxes is a lot of money... I wonder if this was just an excuse to arrest him, or if he really evaded all that.

C'mon Mann.. I don't think that's just some government stipulations - Unless they'd charge him with the fines for his crime .. Dude has been running Memorydealers.com and agilestar.com for as long as 12years now - who knows how long he's been evading 'em taxes?

He didn't murder anybody though. Somehow tax-evasion is in a gray area for me. Since the gov uses that tax money in a very stupid way most of the time, I too don't like paying taxes. On the top of that, they print money which is another tax. If they are collecting taxes, why are they printing money? If they are printing money why are they collecting taxes? This shit is so broken.

No, there's nothing stupid about it .. AFAIK, The monetary and financial regulatory system in any country works as good as what you described; they gotta make sure that currency notes don't suffer too much wear and tear thus, causing major devaluations.
Mopping out funds from circulation through the initiation of taxes, levies and internal revenue services would serve as a defence mechanism for the government and an easy way to control inflation

Edit:

He's a free-thinker and a freedom-lover, somebody who recognizes that something is terribly wrong with the world, and wants to do something about it.

I personally don't think Bitcoin Cash helped the world in any way, but kudos to you for looking for the positives.

The only thing I'd consider as a wrong narrative or say - a selfish misconception - would be that he tried to convince people to believe BCH is BTC.

[franky1]

The Uniited States tax laws are insane. Despite several attempts to try and wrap my head around it, I hit a brick wall every time. It seems like a design intended to indict people rather than make the process easier for them, you have to figure out what to do and when to do it, otherwise you'll face prosecution.

Let's see as more details unfold regarding this case.

- Jay -

As someone who worked with helping people file their taxes in the US, I understand why there is a huge number of citizens that do not know how to file for their taxes and would rather pay other people to do it for them, even if it means that it might be an additional amount equivalent to the tax that they should be paying. This goes out to individuals that are earning modestly and quite 'comfortably', but I'm not certain about people who are earning millions from whatever venture they have.

I'm pretty sure Roger Ver knows his taxes. He may have forgotten that he's still obligated to pay his taxes (that's how absurd it is) even though in his mind, he no longer has this obligation to the US.

years ago there were some social media trends about tax avoidance by seeking citizenship else where. and alot of people didnt and still dont realise that by the very act of trying to change citizenship is a trigger of a taxable event in of itself.
back then we had many crypto scammers trying to offer citizenships onboard their off short boats, seapods, steasteading campaigns.. it was hilarious calling out them scams.

many dont realise that revoking your own citizenship stops the clock meaning it alienates you from the laws that could have aided you. and you are then stuck as an outlaw knowing if you returned, you will get targetted..

its much easier to just learn the laws to learn the loopholes of how to legally avoid tax, rather than find the evasion tricks found in social media

,,
one other thing about one of the charges against ver is a silly administration one that started the headaches against ver vs irs..
him filing a valuation based on 3/2/14 instead of 2/3/14 (well if you are in the EU or US they switch meaning of actual calendar real time..)
EU 2/3/14 is 2nd march but in US is 3rd Feb
thats where one of the charges are called 'erroneous' because its just a slip up. but started several balls rolling of vers arguments against valuations in 2014+
so even little errors can start big avalanches

as for society as a whole
when the law society made tax law a speciality, they had to make it worthy, thus they ensured basic tax filings and tax understanding was not taught at highschool. thus creating a whole industry and university required education system and business sector out of it
if all high school kids knew how to file taxes and tax law was as straight forward s it should be.. $billions of business would be lost...
.. so now you know why its not taught

[pawel7777]

It's also amazing that Ver hasn't been a US citizen for a decade and they come up with that right now? I feel like this isn't a coincidence and either some model citizen reminded the IRS about him, or maybe it has something to do with the recent attack on bitcoin wallets.

This is insane. You'd think that after renouncing the citizenship you could just be left alone but nope.
I'm also puzzled if there are any expiry dates on such charges, if the "exit tax" was due at all, the liability arose over 10 years ago, so I imagine any country would just let it go (unless he was ordered to pay by the court etc).

This was his last post in bitcointalk forum:

(...)

Not drawing any conclusions, but it's a bit strange that he decided to return after 5 years long inactivity just to casually reply in a thread that has been dead for 10 years and got necroposted by a newbie with a total post count of 1.

[Abiky]

U.S. decided to empty all the “fat wallets” with bitcoin? They should have publicly stated “thank you guys for pumping up bitcoin and now we will take on this asset ourselves”, when the whole world believed in this cryptocurrency and billions of capital were poured in. The right time to get your hands on this is when BTC has gained value. It sounds slightly absurd, but it seems to me that independent individual large BTC-holders (like Roger Ver) will be forced to part with (at least part of) their savings, because it is easy to influence (find and force) such people, and the reward will be impressive.

It's funny that yesterday the state pretended that bitcoin was a candy wrapper, but today they arrest you for it.

I know, right? The US was skeptical of Bitcoin in the past, but things changed all of a sudden. It now considers BTC as money, targetting anyone involved in it as it sees fit. You can now see why Satoshi never disclosed his identity in the first place. I feel sorry for Vitalik Buterin, Charles Hoskinson, Gavin Wood, and other founders/developers/early crypto investors who disclosed their identities. They will get scrutinized by the government real soon. Roger Ver is now facing the consequences of revealing his identity to the public. I sure hope he doesn't get extradited to the US like CZ and the likes.

With the US government constantly attacking the crypto industry, we should expect companies, startups, exchanges, etc to move away from the country. If that happens, it'll be game over for the US. Especially when other countries will become technologically-superior by adopting the revolution. Who knows what the future will bring? 

[dkbit98]

How are we at war? Kindly pardon my ignorance here as a noob , I may not have fully understood. Although I have learned not to believe everything I read on the Internet but from the news publication if there's any truth to it, MemoryDealers broke the law and he is facing the consequences for it.

It's the war of government against the people, and all of the sudden developers are getting arrested, and everyone is breaking a law if they had any connection with Bitcoin.
With the way how they are going in future you will be able to use bitcoin only with custodial and government approved services  
You don't need to be expert to understand what is happening.

I'm curious about how the statute of limitations will apply. Much of the indictment refers to alleged crimes happening many years ago.

They can change things as they like.
Imagine officials being so desperate to track, monitor and arrest ex US citizens in different countries because of this ... as if they don't have anything better to do, all terrorists and evil hackers are suddenly all gone...
I wonder what would Frédéric Bastiat say if he was alive today?

I would not defend Roger in any matter, but this is just another confirmation of why anonymity is important.
The US is putting serious pressure on the regulation of the Bitcoin system (I can't shake the impression that they put themselves as the main and only judges here) and we were afraid that they would ban cryptocurrencies.  

I am starting to wonder if Roger was actually right about many things  
They will probably ban Bitcoin in future, as soon as they release their CBDC crap.
Maybe they will allow Saylor and ''approved'' people to use it with special custodial wallets only.

[mindrust]

You can now see why Satoshi never disclosed his identity in the first place. I feel sorry for Vitalik Buterin, Charles Hoskinson, Gavin Wood, and other founders/developers/early crypto investors who disclosed their identities. They will get scrutinized by the government real soon. Roger Ver is now facing the consequences of revealing his identity to the public. I sure hope he doesn't get extradited to the US like CZ and the likes.

How do we know if the gov don't already know satoshi's identity? I just posted another message in some other topic in the same context.

Tbh, I don't believe satoshi is anonymous too. To us, yes he is still anonymous, but just because we don't know it, yet, doesn't mean somebody somewhere also doesn't. Let's say the US gov really knows who satoshi is, is it in their interest to share that info with the general public? Don't think so. They are not stupid.

Do you think satoshi was an expert at hiding his tracks? Do you think the gov don't have the tools to reveal his identity? I don't know, it looks like a long shot to me. Maybe the other names you mentioned didn't bother because they knew it was a futile attempt.

[Abiky]

How do we know if the gov don't already know satoshi's identity? I just posted another message in some other topic in the same context.

Exactly. I've always wondered about that. But what if Satoshi Nakamoto was actually the CIA or NSA (which explains why no one has been able to find who he/she/they really was)? We'll never know for sure. The thing is crypto users need to be aware of governments' increasing surveillance tactics by protecting their privacy as much as possible. If developers are creating something as controversial as a mixer or decentralized exchange, they must never reveal their identity to the public.

What's best? Satisfy investors by revealing your ID (making them believe your project is legit)? Or remain anonymous like Satoshi even if investors think your project is a scam? I think the last option is the way to go. Hopefully, crypto investors learn a valuable lesson with the US' aggressive stance towards the industry. Wishing all the best to Roger Ver.