Bitcoin Forum

This thread was started because of this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=14085.msg731942#msg731942

For those not interested or too lazy I'll summarize.

1) Ozcoin pool was hacked and funds stolen, graet(the owner) was pissed
2) I was pissed at everything today
3) Started thread.

My questions for starters:

1) was it always like this? or is it getting worse?
2) is there anything we can do or just toughen up and take it "like a man" ?


edit: this is not about a hacked pool or even the bitcoin community as a whole although the goings on here
(hacks,scams etc..) have ignited the thread. just watch the news around the world or in your own community.
are the good people being overrun by the (hopefully) small amount of people that create the chaos?

The thing to do is figure out what went wrong and prevent the same thing from happening in the future.

of course

but I'm talking about PEOPLE = this was done by PEOPLE.
The evil is all around us in every aspect of our lives.  We have to be ON WATCH continually.
Personally , I'm tired of it. 

I take issue with the idea that "This world runs on EVIL,GREED and SELFISHNESS".

Yes there are allot people who definitely fit these categories, but, with the exception of actual and real Evil, these aren't completely bad qualities if not taken to extreme.

There are allot of selfless people in this world and we may out of jealousy or lack of self examination think these people fit one or more of the above categories.

So I think if we try to look objectively at ourselves and our motives, as well at our fellow man/woman/person we may see something different in them as well as ourselves.

Sam

1.  Yes it was always like this.  Looking back at history we see all types of evil.  In our current society some things are getting better.  Such as the internet allows us to interface with people we would otherwise never know or understand.  But it is also getting worse because anyone can say or do anything now with little or no repercussions.  So allot of us don't act as responsibly as we should.

2.  I think we all should "toughen up and take it "like a man"".  At the same time we should exercise a little more personal responsibility.  In this information age we have allot of power that previous generations didn't have, but we don't always reflect how our words and actions effect those around (in the virtual sense) us.  We should concentrate on more personal responsibility and raising up our fellow man and speaking as well of him as we can as apposed to trying to crush another line of reasoning.

Sam

What did the non English subtitles say?

Yes, we do, and I am tired of it as well.  I have run into this at the corporate level with being laid off, and so I'm more than a little jaded at the moment.  All we can do, individually, is to not act like those who take advantage of others.

We can't change the behavior of others, only ourselves.
Sam

So the answer is - we cant do anything - this is humane nature.

Kinda reminds me of the series "Terra Nova"

For those they dont know it:

The future world is in shambles, they find a wormhole to go back 65 million years.

"Lets send back the best people and start a new and better world!"

What happens is of course more of the same evil, greed and selfishness but with dinosaurs

Hmm, quite the contrary.  We can't do anything about others, for the most part.  But we can accept responsibility for our part in the mess of this world and improve what we have control over, which is ourselves.
Sam

Who's qualified to say who the best people are?  If they could be identified, I think, the "best people" would create the same mess we now have over time, dinosaurs or not. :)
Sam

1. Its always been like this.  If you are religiously minded, check your bible and see that Adam and Eve stole that apple.
2. You can focus on the fact that most people are decent and that the kindness of strangers far outweighs the bad stuff that happens.  Be careful from now on but don't don't let it distort your attitude to people.

Also the community, in general, needs to take responsibility for pools centralizing the network too much, if that's indeed the case, by pushing people away from solo mining.

And developers need to take responsibility, in particular, by removing the Coin Generation option from the Bitcoin client which probably did the most to drive the last nail in the coffin of a decentralized network.

I'm NOT saying P2Pool is a bad development, however, I still don't know what I should think about that yet.

Sam

When I started getting interested in Bitcoin and asked for guidance, some people, kindly enough, suggested that CPU mining and solo mining probably weren't the best use of resources.  But then there were more than a few who went further on both subjects to suggest was just plain stupid to solo mine not only stupid but implied that it was somehow immoral to CPU mine and hence it was proper to remove it from the client.

All I really wanted to do, in the beginning, was to get a CPU or low end GPU mining on a machine, that was running 24/7 anyway, up and running and then just forget about it and check the wallet a couple times a year.

And I think that many people may/could be turned away from Bitcoin because of these barriers.  If there were a simple way for a person to get started so that they didn't have to spend allot of time, like many of us do, they would be more inclined to be involved in Bitcoin.  Even if it is only to CPU mine for a while with the standard client.

Sam

True enough, but to a noob it may seem like a majority.  Whether it is a majority or not it discourages people and drives them away.


I could not disagree more.  I would think the Bitcoin community would want the maximum number of people, regardless of technical aptitude, to download and install the Bitcoin Client and run it.


With all due respect, but, who are you to judge how I choose to use my electricity and for what purpose I choose to use it?  Do you pay my electric bill?  Do you know where my electricity comes from?  And who gives a FRA what any critic says about a footprint.  I don't.


True too.  But when the Generate Coin option was removed you removed the incentive to "give a whirl" altogether for many people.  Again I would think the community would want as many people as possible to install and run the client.  Is that an incorrect assumption?


I'm sure that is a completely unbiased opinion on your part right? :)

I think it would be more, or at least just as, productive as reinstating CPU mining and maybe some type of generic GPU mining capability back into the client.

Just think if every Bitcoin user/miner installed the client on every machine they had and mined on just one CPU core at a very low priority and/or had an integrated GPU module similar to Ufasofts which did not require additional software to be installed on the machine and solo mined at a low hash rate that didn't impact computer usage, what would that do to the distributed nature of the Bitcoin network?  My WAG would be that we wouldn't be worrying about Deepbit, or any other pool, impacting the network quite some much.

Sam

Just to put things straight. I have no connection to ozcoin pool, never even mined there.  The title of this thread was bouncing around in my mind for days and had to put up the thread when I read about Graets "problems" and his reaction to them( he is since back to his jolly self it seems now...)

LOVE runs the world.  Evil just stands out in an obvious way when it happens.

you are kind of contradicting yourself...

What tax do you propose for greedy politicians?  For assholes on the road?
People that don't give a damn about smoking in public places?
the list goes on and on...


I am not talking about SICK people like child molesters or rapists..they deserve to die.
But supposedly "normal" people that care about nobody or anything but #1 ( themselves)

the world has always ran this way, otherwise there would be no need for money, bitcoin included.

I don't agree - money was invented to help commerce.
So you could buy milk without having to have the exact commodity
that the milkman needs.

It seems you have some ideas, maybe?  What are they?
Sam

Not really. I believe myself to but a VERY law abiding person, but some days i just wish i had the
guts to be a vigilante . The punishments i see that criminals get just make me laugh. How can
an evil person be deterred from committing another crime when it's just WORTHWHILE...

Just as an example... we have drivers that get ticket after ticket for speeding, running red lights
and they get a fine..A FINE after the 3rd , 4th  , 10th time....  just take away there damn driving license!
but no... that will be too much , poor guy.. how will he get to work? Isn't there a limit to a persons liberties?

 

If the gov't took away their license how would they keep collecting fines???

so the judges are in cahoots with the rest of the bunch.....

Well so many municipalities are going to red light cameras and speed detectors.  They can't legally charge the perp with a crime because a police officer didn't catch them and witness it and press charges/ticket them, a machine, who answers to no one, did.  So they have to decriminalize these crimes and make the automated process of ticketing someone a civil suite.

So basically our solution to too many people breaking the law's is to decriminalize them and automate the enforcement of lesser charges that then becomes a revenue source for the municipality.

So judges aren't even involved usually.  And there is less/no accountability.  Ain't technology great?
Sam

Exactly what is happening here... they just installed a big bunch of those cams...  I can't say I'm not for it,
if someone wants to drive 130KMH  in a 90 zone , let him pay through the nose as far as I'm concerned- the
more the merrier- maybe , just maybe after 2000$ worth of fines the guy will calm down... if not
at least it might help pay for the damage that is done from other speeders.  It is impossible to enforce any law
if enough people don't follow it.  

reminds me of  a part in Star-Trek from a very long time ago. They land on a planet were everything looks like
heaven , everybody is smiling, there is NO CRIME.  After a while one of the party steps on the grass where you
 aren't supposed to- that's when they find out why there is no crime- there is only 1 punishment for all crimes- DEATH.


EDIT:  just to be clear - I don't think the above is the answer.....

Yea... the problem arises when you get a ticket for gunning through a yellow because someone is tailgating you and the yellow is at or below the minimum duration. Or something like making a right on red while cars coming from the direction you are turning have the arrow to make a left (it makes sense if you imagine it). Most people who get these tickets are not going twice the speed limit. There is no evidence these things save lives or prevent accidents or anything like that. The primary purpose is revenue generation.

and then the government will tell you where and  when you can travel....
( is there any doubt that when there will be automated cars that they wont be connected to
some fed system? )

You'll know that's starting when they come and confiscate your tinfoil hat.  Best hide a spare one under the carpet.

I understand what you are saying , but I was kinda serious.  Automated cars would probably be connected to a network to avoid congestion or report an accident (maybe a car hits a cow....) . If there is a network someone runs it.
Homeland Security Law would let the authorities have a connection to that for "times of crises". They already
have connections to everything across the country.

As long as they don't insist on you visiting the mother-in-law on Sundays and have a vehicle turn up expectantly to take you there...its all good :P

LOL totally agree.

Wife is MUCH stronger than government.

So the other day I got rear ended. Somehow this resulted in my state sticker falling off the plate. So my car is registered but has an old sticker (from like 5 years ago) showing. I didn't realize this until a few weeks later when I went outside to find a ticket ($50) on my car for expired plates. So I take the ticket inside and figure I will mail them a copy of my registration and all will be fine. Then the next day there is another ticket sitting there. At this point I started keeping my registration in the window which seems to have stopped the tickets.

Anyway, I mail in a copy of my registration and an explanation with the two tickets. A month later, I receive back, in the same envelope, two letters. One stating that the "violation did not occur" and another stating that I need to pay, from two different judges. To appeal I need to file a suit against the city which requires paying the state mandated filing fee, which is $65.

Nobody is held accountable for their actions anymore.  That is a huge problem of our time.  Don't know what to do about it offhand.  I don't think being a vigilante would be the correct course though, and I'm pretty sure your not promoting that.  We do have the due process of law in the United States.  It's not a perfect system but it has worked pretty good in the past when the legal system would hold people accountable for their actions.
Sam

lol.  I shouldn't laugh as I have an arrest warrant out for me in MA for something similiar.  I wrote to the police and the court from England with proof that I had attended the hearing they said I missed.  I even enclosed a copy of the judgement.  Cambridge police replied acknowledging the fact.  But they never removed the warrant. 

Nothing really evil in those 2 stories... just stupid bureaucracy - but I admit , those kind of things can be maddning
and ruin anyone's day

Actually, I think that it has got worse in the last twenty years or so.  Greed is one of the seven cardinal sins and years ago it was not something that people bragged about.  It is pretty hypocritical to see a professed "Christian" talking about how greed is good.  On the other hand, these days I see preachers saying things that no one could have imagined them saying twenty years ago.  I still believe that the vast majority of people are good and that it is only a small minority that seeks to take advantage over others.  That small minority just has a lot better press corps than it used to have.  The income inequality in our society has become way more pronounced than at any time since the twenties and thirties.  Oh well, hopefully it will all be getting better.  I think people are finally getting fed up with the rich and corporations running everything and running roughshod over everyone else.  No matter what they try to make people believe, people do count and compassion and caring for others is a key component of our society and most of us want to keep it that way.  This is my first post out of the Newby area.  I wanted to check and make sure I could make a post so here it is.  In regard to the subject of things getting worse, I always say, "As long as I wake up breathing it's all a bonus.  Sometimes not much of a bonus but still a bonus."

Welcome out of newbie land...   nice post.
Finally somebody agrees with me that it IS getting worse.
Do we have the power to effect the "evil" minority ?
Do people become more greedy and selfish because they feel its the only way to go up
in the world we have today?

Welcome :)

Great first post too. 

The fastest way the truly greedy can take advantage of you, is by convincing you that greed is good.

They are far better at it, and they're asking you to play a game where they know the rules inside out. The vast majority of the population who aren't anywhere near as greedy as them will always lose out to them, because their consciences get in the way, whereas the truly greedy have no such affliction.

I believe the modern "greed is good" paradigm started around 1986...I think it was even referenced in the movie "Wall Street" and some influential people publicly announced it. All market temperance went out the window for profit, and it has led inexorably to what we have today. The nature of "greed is good" is also to trend to one or so winner, so good luck.

Its funny you say that.  I saw that movie in 1987 and was blown away by Gordon Gekko.  So were a hell of a lot of people who were just beginning to see the money in being an intermediary.  I read somewhere that Oliver Stone was horrified at how people took the "wrong" meaning from his film but "Wall Street" is the only Oliver Stone film that I didn't think sucked :)

Always gonna be people prepared to do things like this, just remember to have a decent firewall + encryption when necessary :)

I'm sure the good people of America's pioneering days in the west would be able to identify also.

We have money,
Money rewards evil, greed and selfishness
evil, greed and selfishness keep money going
rinse and repeat

Things are getting worse. It will always be this way. There is nothing you can do about it.

Good intentions wont change anything. Greed and evil is winning.

Even if you want to be a good person and do your part its not enough. Unless we all work together things will never change.

No, because action requires thinking it's purposeful, but because we know we are doomed, we are doomed.

We have all been armed with the information of people starving around the world. We all have the knowledge of children being forced in to sexual slavery. Telling people isnt enough. And neither is the actions of a few. We dont know how to love each other and work together. Too many people value money more than life. Evil will continue to spread around the world and there is very little or nothing you can do about it.

Depends what you call society. You mean the society you know? The western world? Yes, there are some improvements in those parts of the world , but they are the minority. Majority of the world is poor ,hungry,sick,abused,oppressed.   

In the western world, we live longer and healthier but I'm not sure If happier. The "ruling elite" in these countries control most of the money and the goal of most people is to have more and more money. People are so obsessed with money that they will do anything to get it ( hence the title of this thread). Who has time to think of the troubles of the rest of the world? Even if somebody does care ( and some do) what power do they have? They too are in the "rat race" of the modern world.

For the record im not trying to be a downer. I saw the thread and i just threw my opinion out there. The world truly is what we make of it. We have the ability to change things. We can live in peace if we choose to. I just dont think we will ever achieve that. I agree there are many good people in the world. Probably more good than evil at this point. But the amount of evil people in the world is growing by the day. Sooner or later i think they will outnumber the good. I also agree we live longer but not happier. Too many people are stressed out and depressed. I think thats because our priorities are fucked up. Wealth and social status has become our idea of happiness. If you think things are getting better you should take a look at this list of wars and conflicts the US has been involved in. Our whole history is full of violence and hostility towards each other. Maybe one day things will be better. But for now things are definitely going to get worse before they get better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations