Bitcoin Forum

I haven't posted on here for a while , but I'm wondering how many of you bitcoin users are in technical trades in the construction industry?

I'm studying to be a licensed builder in New South Wales , Australia .
I've been thinking of , a experimental bitcoin city if you will call it that. I'm sure there are places and people who have already tried this but every state should have a city built on bitcoin , reason being is that it's very difficult changing existing protocols and habits in a developed city.

If we started from the ground up with bitcoin as the underlying currency and foundation of the startup city I think this will make it much easier to transition into the larger populace.

To start with a large fund will have to be started and I'm talking in the millions, there would need to be a self sufficiency to the city , a green city.
- green energy (wind farms perhaps) and the possibility of selling that energy to the grid
- agriculture , cattle , etc
- people with trade backgrounds willing to accept bitcoin as a form of payment
- to simplify trade , I would suggest paper wallets of pre set denominations for regular purchases, even pre paid accounts with businesses



I'm going to continue listing things I'm busy at the moment but please add your own ideas and such

So, I give a merchant a paper wallet and when I leave the shop I just, send my BTC from the paper wallet to another adress, since I can just save the address of the paper wallet on my phone.
Yeah, Sounds great ...

And how do people pay taxes? In BTC (I don't think it's possible) or in AUD (so they need to sell btc for aud)?

Meeting in bank or hotel lobbies is advisable with Australia local bitcoins.

Welcome to the new world. Taxes, nation-states, and the systematic dominance and violence they necessitate are all being made obsolete before your very eyes. Even war will go the way of the dodo, in time.

The future is reason, truth, and mathematics. Violence, coercion, and deception - the hallmarks of nation-state existence - are the past.

Very nice quote, hopefully it will turn out that way.

That's one of the most stupid quotes, I have ever read.
Nation-states are here for about 100-200 years. Before that, there also was violence, coercion and deception.
Some People are completly delusional ...

no i wasnt clear on that bit, i meant more or less having a bank that oversees the process , imagine going to  a "bank" and essentially depositing bitcoin in return for "notes" that are sealed in pre determined denominations that you can trade with. until someone comes out with an instant transaction process for bitcoin i believe that is essentially the quickest method of transacting in store. imean sure theres otherways but this is the whole point, its an experiment to test theories and method out before they are rolled out because the pioneers are the ones who take the risk but often are rewarded the most. if you did this stuff in the cities and itbackfires or fucks up i gaurantee it will be a huge blow to the bitcoin price. you want to show a city that runs on bitcoin and only bitcoin.


as for taxes, as far as im aware , you can only betaxed on the dollar. and capital gains but it all depends on how you interpret bitcoin

i remember reading somewhere there was a prototype usb wallet that when you press a button on it , it showsyou your wallet balance and allyou have to do is plug it in to be charged with a secure pin at point of purchase.

It would have to be a country... as any country we tried to do this in would steal everything we had in the name of justice or terrorism or really w/e as the masses are really stupid and believe anything.

Transactions are instant, like many People who actually use Bitcoins(like this guy with the Bar in Berlin) stated in here before. Just the 8 confirmations may take some time.
Also, if you make "notes", you always have the Problem about counterfeiting, which Bitcoins prevent

I think it should be an enormous floating Bitcoin city, that could travel the open ocean. If these could be feasible and repeated the world would avoid overpopulation issues.

Sounds like a great idea, but an enormous undertaking.
There would be so much to consider that something important could easily be ignored.
And imagine trying to keep bitcoiners in line while developing this place.
Some would work hard, some would embezzle all the funds, others would actively try to tear everything down.
You could start with a preexisting town as a dedicated bitcoin community and expand in planned stages.
Imagine pitching that to the towns mayor though, lol.

I like this idea.

How coincidental !!! I was thinking something similar yesterday. But I was not thinking about a city. I was thinking about crowdfunding a multistoried building and returning the bitcoins to investors by selling apartments in it. There is ample of real estate opportunity in India. We are just short of funding.

What a sad world you must live in. Free yourself.

As far as this idea goes...stay tuned...

I did not create a tool for voting with bitcoin for nothing.

Could try http://www.bitpools.com/ when it's fully up and running.
I think thats the idea behind the website. Crowdfunding.

EDIT: Ah, the creator beat me to it.

seems the server is too slow... the site is not loading :(

Strange, it was working just a minute ago.
I think it launched just yesterday, so they're probably having a few teething problems.

I like the idea. There would be some logistical stuff to work out but maybe a pilot city of sorts would be a great way to experiment with full bit coin integration.

Reminds me of

http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Marcin_Jakubowski and
http://galtsgulchchile.com

I believe if cryptocurrencies continue to grow exponentially there will be enough wealth to contribute back. Building cities themselves sounds pretty utopian, though. If a person or a group of people really wants to make things happen it takes a lot of vision to attract talent, capital, .... it's more realistic to think about a kind of resort like GaltsGulch.

making a city purely for bitcoin (translation: bitcoin concentration camp)

we do not need a place to throw bitcoiners into, we need to get non bitcoiners EVERYWHERE to accept bitcoin.
bitcoin is not about centralisation

secondly the cost to make a city requires billions. the OP wants people to give him all your bitcoins. this is another funds grab for personal profit.

thirdly you do not need to build a city. you can easily and more cheaply, convert a current city to be bitcoin friendly. check out hull, new hampshire. etc.

everyone SHOULD NOT pay the OP a single bitcoin to either run off with the money, or to make a concentration camp. instead we should be making EVERYWHERE bitcoin friendly. that way we can have choices of destinations and freedom of movement.

I don't think he asked for a penny.
Just throwing out ideas. Nothing wrong with sharing an idea.
Even one that isn't likely to actually develop.

I don't think anyone is advocating that kind of thing. It is fun to speculate on such an idea though.

A not for profit company is probably the best legal way to put it, with a board of directors leading it and "citizens" will be stakeholders in the project with the right to vote. Yes it's a huge logistical issue but that's what team work is for , one person can't do this alone it would take hundreds of volunteers .

I personally am a tradesperson I could oversee construction of the place, it doesn't have to big to start just simple and efficient and foresight for future planning. Imagine a real estate development that's affordable and powered by bitcoins. It would take a lot of commitment but it will be an example for the rest of the world

Do some research into Bali - they are trying to become "Bitcoin Island".

It would be a massive undertaking for sure. I would love to see it happen. As someone said above the best route might be just to target an existing city.

They are actually building an abandoned island as a tourist spot where the medium of exchange is Bitcoin.

This would be ridiculously expensive. Things like this are always good on paper except when it comes to fund it, it never works.

your arguement

my rebuttle


thank you for playing
have a nice day

I am really hoping something like that happens. I would finally renew my passport. 

It won't ever happen due to what I mentioned before. The unfortunate fact is that it's too expensive. And theoretically if it was built, how would it be maintained? Yes, it is only being run on Bitcoin, but what happens if magically BTC drops. It would cause an economic meltdown of the city rendering it completely useless.

Love the fact you said about a concentration camp haha.

Anyway it is really expensive. Also i don't think people would give OP a couple of billion $ worth of BTC.

Like the guy who made a floating island out of empty bottles? a few miles wide of a bunch of old cans and bottles could make it happen. Sign me up.

Would love to get a chance to checkout Bali someday.  Not to mention Galt's Gulch!  Just gotta get my satoshi's in order first.

I don't want the responsibility of the fund, im only saying ill do the construction side of things.

and yeah its volatile, bitcoin could plummet any day, it could explode and quadriple in price at any moment too im not speculating on the price of bitcoin but essentially if you have bitcoin backed by something solid , it will always have a value.

the only reason the USD or the AUD is worth anything is because for one its backed by the governments ( was backed by gold and silver once upon a time) and its widely accepted. I mean theres alot of factors in play, people starting to realise the gorvenment can just print money whenever it feels like (the government indirectly does this through the reserve bank) .

IF they start backing paper with gold or silver again then i gaurantee the bitcoin price will drop if even a little.

but back to the project, there are a number of ways to ensure the longevity of the city. To maintain the presence of the bitcoin, you could invite bitcoin related companies/enterprises  to operate there , create something you can't have in an established city, even if its abandoned but to be honest the only abandoned cities you're going to find are pre 21st century towns in the center of nowhere, it wouldnt really save you an awful lot of money because you still have to add infrastructure, modern sewage processing, storm water pits/piping, electricity generation/connection ,etc .

Then theres the dilemma of internet. buildings are cheap, its what makes a building habitable that actually costs money.

i can tell you now if you refit an old town its going to cost you alot more unless you are incredibly lucky and find a place that has everything already in place and its merely cosmetic work required.



Some of you may be wondering where the money will come from? ( aka bitcoin) but let me pick your brain for a moment here , if you had enough companies interested in the venture, for example you get a few bitcoin exchanges and a bunch of other companies heavily reliant on bitcoin onboard and you offer a building, office or even a warehouse in return for a pledge of bitcoin with cost price construction and rent/lease thereafter or constructing for them and selling it to them whatever is more viable for that company . The bitcoin city will be in their best interest as it will strengthen the bitcoins demand and flow, giving those companies a greater foothold in the industry . it will no longer be about speculating and "hoping" the bitcoin prices go up and stay strong, its about taking a big step in driving bitcoin.

With a bit of crowd-funding  ontop of that and other sources whatever they may be, this could happen.

It shouldn't end there though, i would like to see community owned fabrications and factories. Reliable and renewable energies, construction materials and things that could be produced in excess for export, offering them to others out of the city where we only accept bitcoin.

 there would have to be a bit of picking in regards to this, possibly a cheaper price for the goods or rather a competitive price to offer incentive but to compensate and grow, i would suggest a deal with one or more bitcoin exchanges to oversee the conversion of bitcoin and fiat currency for the exports, wether the people or companies convert to bitcoin then buy or rather pay a fiat amount that we in turn convert to bitcoin through the nominated exchange with special rates and commisions whichever way it goes.


its a community effort, there is no way in hell i could do any of this on my own . it would take a miracle but with the ever-growing bitcoin aware populace  this could become reality.

to put it short , INDUSTRIALISE BITCOIN .

you are now boring the community...

1. the town you live in now, infact the towns anyone reading this lives in now.. it has internet correct?  it has shops? running water? electricity? it has warehouses, office blocks, apartment complexes, houses, etc??
so its cheaper to bribe every business in your town to b bitcoin friendly, as oppose to building a city and then trying to get businesses to go there.

2. do you even know the cost of one skyscaper... the cost of 1 apartment block. the cost of one house.. screw it lets keep it simple
a city has a million population. so imagine 1 million houses.. do the maths.. building a city costs more then the total market cap of bitcoin.

3. yea you want to build it. you say you dont want to manage the funds.. i hear you.. you want a middle man to hold the funds for a little while and then give the funds to you.. oh wait.. that still means that you want money.... i see now, and let me guess you want all the blame to b shifted back on the middleman for being a bad escrow... i totally get it now.

4. if you were in the mindset of expanding bitcoin you would be trying to get businesses of the world to accept bitcoin, but no all you want is for the community to give you a wage. even with your weak concept of what is actually required to build a city. you have no clue!

now move on back to your cave or atleast try getting businesses in your town to accept bitcoin. video it. then show us you working on a construction site. yes video yourself doing some actual work.. oh wait you wont do that.. so i guess the only option is going into your cave

Bitcoin city... :/ Your vision is something like five-man football vs Premier league. Crowdfunding the conquest of some undeveloped countries with plenty of natural resources. That's what I'd call a real vision :).

number 3 , you win the grand prize for making me laugh .


my explanations are vague , or you guys are jumping ahead of yourselves.


let me contest your arguments.


1. yes you're right in saying that but that's not the point . The point is to pioneer. To reach new limits and prove to the world "yes we did this with bitcoin" its about making headlines and proving to the sceptics that yes you can have a town thrive just on bitcoin and be green and 100 times more efficient then the average city.

2. I am well aware of the costs of construction, i have a particular interest in multi-living, multi-purpose dwellings, the costs of construction explode the higher you go in terms of storeys/floors ( skyscrapers) but keep in mind these expensive buildings are only viable because of the land value to structure ratio.  essentially , you can have a cheap block of land and build on (expense) as much as you want on it but as soon as your land value is more then the structure itself its no longer in that ratio. land in the cities where most skyscrapers are built are worth alot of money so its not viable building anything that will bring in a lesser then land value profit/return and this is pushed with population/commercial density...
again the rise in 2 storey house constructions are due to land values going up ( atleast in australia) to build the same size house as a single storey can and usually will be cheaper ( keeping to minimum construction requirements , load bearing ,etc)  then a 2 storey building but when you factor in land value , it works out ALOT cheaper to build a 2 storey house with the same floor space. just to put it into perspective..... then consider im talking about a large parcel of land perhaps 1-2 hours outside of the city districts which is far more affordable, construction is given more freedom and can be a cheaper and simpler design .

3. it doesnt even have to be a fund, its not one specific way of doing it. An open mind is one with more then one way of doing things. it can be just like that development in chile the gulch , selling off a plan with lots of flexibility. Im not saying anything close to "give me the money", yeah ideally it would take $100 million ++ to get it really started with a infrastructure with plenty of room for expansion , the whole point of the fund is to prevent the whole thing being a grab for profit. I see it being a greater success being run as a "non-profit" project. it would set it apart from housing/commercial developments.

4. im not saying im right or this is the only way, im encouraging people to put some ideas into this, brainstorm. throw some ideas back at me , don't just shut the whole thing down im not trying to argue a point . Im trying to build on an idea, a spark if you will and you all have ideas, to fuel a fire.

it takes more then a spark to set a field ablaze , with the right amount of fuel and the right conditions you have a blaze that can last a very long time and have a huge effect on everything around it .

even franky1 exaggerate about this being a scam, he has a lot of valid points.

In my opinion, this idea belong to the land of fairy tales, where Bitcoins bring world peace, cures all sickness and alleviate world hunger. Some people in this forum will tell you, that this will happen, most of them will tell you, that will happen after we defeated all this evil governments with the magical power of Bitcoins.

It hasn't been done but needs to be done.  When it happens and Bitcoin is dug-in in a real market, it will be great for the platform.

I also think franky1 is being excessively negative. That said, his concerns should be addressed - they strike me a likely having a kernel of validity.

BTAIM, all any of us have to add to this great experiment is our personal expertise. If you don't know computer code, but you live and breathe building codes, I don't see why what you have to suggest should be ignored out-of-hand would not be of benefit to the community. (edit)

Couple thoughts:


There is some synergy in having aligned businesses (e.g. all using bitcoin) in close physical proximity. However, it is not clear to me that this is a make-or-break advantage. Indeed, it would be located within some larger political construct (state), which might cause its centralized nature to be a liability rather than an asset.


I guess you are unaware of the number of vast urban ghost towns built in China in the last few years?


? stuff that existing developments already have!?!?!
 

The cost of running Cat6e - or even fiber - is negligible compared to building a city from scratch.


Well, my expertise is not in building trades. I will need to defer to the knowledge of someone in that line of work. However, that assertion seems to me to be rather ludicrous. Can you provide examples? Perhaps a rough budgetary breakdown spreadsheet comparing the two alternatives, with accompanying text describing the assumptions that led to the estimates?

The bank is a centralized point of failure that may draw attack. If nothing else, the system that you describe would seem to have the moral hazard of the bank (either openly or by stealth) starting to maximize profits by engaging in fractional reserve banking. I think most in the bitcoin community would agree that fractional reserve banking is A Bad Thing.

Communities of like minded people start up all over the place.  There is no need for a skyscraper.  There are plenty of decaying towns in the US.  You could pick any of them.  The problem is just creating enough incentives to have people move out there.  Thats why it is nice to be close to a decent metropolis where people could go to for a "vacation" from bitcoin city.  You would also want it in a community with a low population or law enforcement that isn't overtly meddling.  I've had similar thoughts myself.  Where do you start ?

im not being negative, im just being rational. i have peeled away the layers of requirements. i have thought long and hard about the intricate details. and i have done alot of research

this is not the first "bitcoin town" project someone has brain farted. and honestly. to make a city costs billions. to get every merchant in an existing city to accept bitcoin costs 1000 times less.

imagine it this way. imagine an existing city had 5000 BUSINESSES. lets say we not all of those businesses had a PC. even if we as a community bought a simple PC loaded it with a bitcoin wallet software, the cost is $500 max per PC

so for $2.5million (1000th of th cost of building a city) we can easily just hand every business a PC that is bitcoin enabled.

fuck it let me explain more. as i said not every business has a PC, meaning theres a lot that do have a PC which makes it cheaper then $2.5mill.

so to make an already established city 'bitcoin friendly' costs less then $2.5mill
yet the OP wants BILLIONS so that HIS construction company will be paid to build a new city.. meaning HIS construction company and HIS salary would be paid for. so yes its all about him profiting. and i bet you he wont do th work for minimum wage, as i can already see he wants to declare is as a "non-profit" which is a complete tax dodge.

remember a non-profit is not about people working for free. its about people spending every penny they can to show nothing left at the end of the year in the business bank account, even if their personal bank accounts are over flowing.
(EG red cross CEO on $1m a year salary).

so back to the main point why spend billions on one persons brain fart. where it only costs 1000th the price to do a better job, without years of cement and brickwork, but only a couple months of PC distribution and training

You make reasonable points.

The difference I see is that this guy seems to have some passion, and may actually act on his idea, as it seems to me to combine a few of his central interests in a manner that seems somewhat novel.

You have an alternative scenario that you claim is superior to his idea. Are you engaged enough to actually act upon it?

I say let him go try. If a failure, we get what you expect, but no worse than if he had not tried. Whatever lessons his experience teaches could be factored into his next go. If, on the off chance he succeeds, well, that'd be pretty cool.

Perhaps rather than crushing dreams, what is warranted is thoughtful guidance. IOW: "lead, follow, or get out of the way."

History is filled with dreamers and pipe dreams that became reality. Your cynicism and condescending attitude aside I for one believe that bit coin will make a better world.

for him to succeed requires billions of dollars... meaning he needs EVERY SINGLE bitcoin in circulation due to the fact that the bitcoin market cap is only $8billion.

i think rationally and dont just dream the utopian dream.

as for my motives, i want BITCOIN to succeed, i am not interested in making an individual person wealthy. if there was a project that truly helped BITCOIN, whereby someone got wealthy on the side, im still positive about. but when its 0.1% chance of helping bitcoin, and 99% chance of making someone into an instant billionaire.. i do feel that i should ensure people know whats truly going on.

i have personally put many bitcoins into many projects that have succeeded, and also knit picked a few project idea's to get them on track.. and i have opened my mouth publicly when its obvious that its a dream.

bitcoin can make the world a better place but spending funds on fantasy rather then feasible and workable dreams is what we should be doing.

building a city is a fantasy requiring this one bricklayer to hoard the entire bitcoin circulation. the feasible and practical dream would be to choose a vacation destination, or even your own towns you live in, and get more bitcoin acceptance throughout the world.

but if you truly believe his idea will become reality, give him ALL your bitcoins, because he will need them ALL.

my words have not just flooded out of my fingers and into the keyboard to write my messages, they come from actually thinking about the feasibility of the project before even pressing the reply button.

will it have red light district ?
it needs to have a red light district ?

and keep all the lender/security degenerates out please :) you know, to make more room for red ligh district!

interesting idea though.