Bitcoin Forum

Recently bought many antminers and 29% of them were obviously used.

PCB's, fan, aluminum heatsink were full of dust. I had to air pressure clean the heatsink and big chunks of dirt came out.

How can a big name like BITMAIN do this (from my reading, i am far from being the only one).

Is it an ancient Chinese tradition to sell used stuff as new ?  :P

It's called Quality Check burning...

Quality check for 3 months + ? From the amount of crap that was in there i estimate to at least 3-4 months of using.

And do you mean that my other ants that were new were not quality checked ?

This excuse is beyond retarded. Please...

They sell used gear because people will buy it. Double ROI.

1) Does it matter? The warranty provided is the same
2) Dust can build up very, very quickly.

Specially in China... ;D

Ha! There's your proof that they are mining for themselves before selling the units.

Simply this.
Plus it shouldn't surprise anyone, many companies if not all of them follow this practice.

Yes it does matter.

The warranty is a joke, who are you laughing at here ??
There were months of buildup dust in there. Saying that this could be done in days is plain retarded.

Does it matter if i spit in your soup ? Tastes the same, looks the same, smells the same,  wont make you sick, your meal is as nutritive etc. I believe it matters no?


Plus last i heard selling used products as new product is illegal.

Your buying shit from China, get real.

don't worry kncminer do same thing

That's the risk involved with ordering something all the way around the globe.

What are you going to do, request RMA it back and wait for a new one?   :P

Even a day lost BTC mining in precious.  Time is indeed money with setup costs, maintaining and tweaking, and monitoring the miners to make sure they're stable.

You know those compressed air cannisters used to blow dust off PC's and keyboards?  Use them.   ;D

Okay here is the deal.  You are completely absolutely correct.  But lets face it you have 0 recourse none zip because you purchased with btc.

Your option are only buy mining gear from sellers that allow paypal or a credit card you will then have recourse. Reading threads/posts about my bitmaintech gear came used have been around for months you had to have read them and yet your purchased from them any way.

   Here is a list of good gear with a paypal option   decent price 1th units for btc mining

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=514758.0


and zoomhash.com sells a grid seed blade with a paypal option.     I am sure there are other sellers with decent prices and paypal/credit card options.

I have 1 1th unit from the thread I linked and I have 4 grid seed blades from zoom hash all paid with by paypal. On june 21 or june 22 I will buy again from one or both of them.

They could solve it easily anyway if they will notice this thread they will just clean it with compressed air and ship them after that.

Some funny answers here guys.

Yeah i know there is no legal recourse thats why im posting it publicly.

Raise awareness on their shadiness is the only thing i can do.

To be fair, they never advertised the units as new. That was said a little tongue in cheek. That aside, yes its a little disingenuous but better than being a hashfast/cointerra/bfl customer that never got their miner.

nobody gives a hoot about it, all that matters is performance.

Plus your raising awareness about a product they don't even make anymore. Good luck on your crusade.

May be because his basement is dirty and you need a vacum cleaner to suck the dust from a unit tested for just a couple of hours ;D
At least that was last official statement from bitmain as far as I remember ;D
But any way if you are happy with the price and stuff is working who cares ;)

Yes this is happening.
There is nothing you can do about it.
If it's that important to you don't buy from them.
If you can find a vendor that doesn't do this I'd be happy to be a customer of theirs.

welcome to reality OP.

it IS disgusting!

it IS immoral!

it IS dishonest!

it IS greedy!

and it probably is illegal, but theyre based in china with a very different mentality than what you may be accustomed to.

he/they also sell;

broken, poorly packaged, late shipped products complete with;

shit PSUs, shit SD cards, shit chinese PSU cables, SHIT thermal compound application & my absolute favourite - SHIT technical assistance & customer service.


dogie approves & justifies this conduct...


iglasses gets it. not much to be done other than sort it out yourself the best you can or abstain from buying.

or you could cut n paste a bunch of stuff and then contact every manufacturer requesting evaluation rigs, this will not gove you a rounded perspective as to their actual behaviour as they will send you a good rig and in good time for free.

but at least you will have positioned yourself well to suck their balls publicly for the awesome gear they gave you for fuck all - while rubbing ppls noses in it who purchased their rigs with their own money and got shafted again and again.


the choice as they say, is yours.

   Well to be more accurate you are complaining about the s-2. 

  My s-1 experience was pretty good. I never purchased an s-2 and I think that I won't buy one.

 The psu is high quailty ,but   it is not rated for running the s-2. 

  a 1200 watt or a 1300 watt  is the correct size. 

 Anyone that purchased an s-2  with knowledge of the psu being too weak and needing to be replaced.

 But the s-2 had poor packing  and bitmaintech has given poor support for the broken ones.

Ok so let me get this straight.

You have stock because you likely over produced the miners.
So you mine them and then you sell them as orders come in.

Did anyone ask if they were new?
Did anyone ask if they were mined previously?
Is there any statement anywhere on the site they are new and never mined?

Just wondering.

So we want companies to:
1) fund all product development out of their own pocket, i.e. no pre-orders
2) have in-stock miners
3) test the miners (because we don't want untested product that might not work)

... but we don't want them to mine with the units before selling them.

I think the OP would be happy/happier if they cleaned the dust off first.

This isn't going to happen unfortunately.

 I'm really pleased with my Batch 3 S2 purchase, and looking forward to my Batch 4 purchase arriving later this week. The power supply seems to be miraculously doing it's job. I really should swap out for a 1200W power supply at some point. It did not appear to be a "quick" work when I took to top off, and appears to be about a 15-30 minute job to perform the transplant, with seemingly needing to take the boards out to get access to the power cables.

 It's a quality product compared to some of the A1 clones that are being pumped out.

 The only bummer with the S2's are the greater-than-desired duplicate and stale share submissions, but despite that, it reports a steady near 1THs at the pool.

 Wish I picked up a couple back in that $1650 group buy Juan ran :|

 As for packing, I do recall reading unfortunate anecdotes from Group 1 and 2 buyers, but I believe the issues have been largely resolved in Batches 3 and 4.

 Can't wait for the upcoming 28nm product from Bitmain !

 </fanboi>

This is off topic but better lock this thread since majority opinion disagree with OP...

Huh?

Disagree?

The point is who cares I think.

People are going to buy these things from "stock" if they are mining or not. This is not pre-order BFL type shit and they rarely mess up the shipping unlike Technobit where things magically disappear then reappear back at Technobit.

I have purchased many miners from Bitmain, S1 and S2. Never has one appeared to have seen any use. In fact, they were so clean and unscarred I wondered if they had even been functionally tested. But I have yet to have ever had a DOA or failure of any kind.

I did "disagree" with the OP since i more prefer on hand miner.

A year ago people (including me) would have begged Avalon to ship our Batch 3 units used and not sit on them mining.  Well at least it's an improvement.

Did bitmain advertise them as new?  Are they so dusty that it would be considered a possible health issue (ie allergen spewing)?  If not I would just ignore it and just not do business with them again.

It's a global commerce.  Although I in the western world have become accustomed to getting new items when I buy them unless they're labeled as used or refurb I guess this may not be the case everywhere else.

With the chinese we are nearly ready to forget our consumer habits
Change the miner product for a car lets say and make your comparison


1) new car is a new never USED car  or a car taking passengers for 3months in China
    New miner is a used 3months hashing for the seller and then when paid off
sold to the new succer with profit

2) When a car does not run you return it immidiatelly request a new car or money back
when a miner does not run you have to be an electric engineer to find out WHERE  is the
problem with the board / PSU or loose cables.YOU can only email them and they will say to you OK
pay post expenses possible export taxes to return it in your expenses and there is no known future
as both money and product on the air....

3)the list can go on and on and on can include guarantee that there is NON existant,  can include customer support that its poor,  can include BTC theft that its common,  can include many criminal activities that they are present but not punished.


I am not strange just fustrated with the chinese customer support
In the United states and Europe the buyer can FCUK the seller if something is wrong with the product
but I see that with Bitcoin miners happens excactly the opposite.
Are there any drugs inside the miners making all of us including me
act like sheeps.



Remember its our money and our electricity making them rich.
I learned from my first work to expect honest payment for a days work and honest spending of this money
so I enjoy them
We must make rules that sellers must follow not what happens now
for instance what is this situation with the preorders......
The Chinese make investments with MY MONEY and if this does not go wrong wow investment failed.....
BTC lost effort hope and electricity.

All these items have very very low WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) due to noise heat expenses
if at least they had a profit it would be different but doing all this and loose
not even river jordan will wash my sins....

I think that the future of Bitcoin is to be spread from miners into others and become and
expand the currency we want.
if the Miners are the first to be screwed what is the future of this currency

I would propose if the operators can do it to be able to vote for the companies with good
overall performance and this voting to be continued with comments kinda ebay feedback system

or demand from all the companies to sell their items directly with ebay.
if this was possible

B -
K-- m----
B----ne
Co--t----
names you all know

and possibly others I forget would not be able to trick anyone.
Ebay is not the paradise of good people but its better that here

HEELLOOO you dont have the product available bye bye
No preorder
Put your onw money expenses and effort to produce it then be able to sell it
this way you will honor your product and your buyer.

and others would not be super rich and thieves
I dont know do I only see things this way.
I have collected an amount of BTC with mining and ready to purchase a miner
What to choose is a big question when you have the BTC

SMART REPLIES or COMPANY EMPLOEES / DEFENDERS PLEASE SAVE THEM

 The problem with the op is he picked possibly the best miner ever made.  pretty much bullet proof gear.  

shipped successfully to homes at an over 95% rate and over 95% of them work fine.

 (guessing on the 95% I believe it is more like 97 %)

  I ordered 20 and had 19 of 20 work great.  the support on the dud sucked  but since it is a license to print money leaglly.

I will live with it.     Cars are not  built for the sole purpose to make money s-1's were built to do just that.

 (and act as a space heater in the winter)

I have ordered 30 S1's and all of them looked new as well.

Indeed, same experience. But perhaps the last miners that they sold for 0,4xx BTC where used in BITMAIN's farm...

Thanks to the people who posted their opinion is this thread. Appreciated even if you disagree.

Looked exactly like this, maybe a little worse (picture from another user with the same experience as me).

Didnt take my own pictures, i had other things going on and its not like i had recourse.

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2s76i9u.jpg

Looks similar to the seasoning salt that Yifu shipped my Avalon with.  Bastards mined with the hardware for months on end...

Its sold out man be happy they had some left.

Welcome to the sad but true state of affairs in bitcoin mining.  Everybody is mining with their own equipment prior to shipping and if you think for one moment they are only burn-in testing these puppies for only a day or two your kidding yourself.

I thought if a company had a physical location in the states they needed to abide by the laws?
Selling something used as new would be illegal isn't it? My S1 was dusty and it wasn't from a day or three burn in as well.
It's unethical but so are the people selling used S1's for the price of a new one (before they were discontinued)

Their website only says that it will be shipped within 48hr and it will have a 90 day warranty. There is nothing else. One of my units looked slightly used or was earlier version with wires attached to PCIe port, but it turned out to be the best, most reliable producer out of all others, which were "new" by the looks and had extra oozing paste. Again, I think that you guys basically have a buyers remorse. Once you are in the plus column, this should fade away.

BITMAIN has a US location/assets ?

That would be another story, yes.



I find this argument retarded but here's my take on it.

It is clearly implicit that they are new. You are on the manufacturer website, they offer a warranty on these units, they do not state anywhere new or used and they do huge volumes.
Its like if the Apple store sells you a used laptop in a sealed box and tells you its not written NEW anywhere.

In short, BITMAIN stated implicitly that these units were new. How ? by not stating ''used'' and by their situation (big asic player. manufacturer etc.).
I believe customers had reasonable expectations of getting a new product...

Also, i believe custom declaration mentions new products.

(i have law degree if that can add to my credibility)

Bitmain has no presence in the US that I am aware of.
Even if they did good luck complaining to the Gov't about ANYTHING that includes the word Bitcoin.  We are borderline criminals to them.

The more time passes the more amazing similarities I keep seeing between mining and online poker (back in the day).  It's just incredible for two things so vastly different to have so many things happening in parallel.
 

Do you even mine or just talk? Make a thread about Bitcoin law.
Edit: my apologies for being a bit rude.

You mad or something ?

I said this because it backs the reasoning of my post (that uses law concepts).

Whatever...

And if you want to know everything english is not my mother tongue, my english range of words is pretty poor.

The only remorse I have is not having enough cash to buy more and sell them at a premium like everyone else is now :P

antminer S1 is the new iphone- used is being sold almost at $100 premium.

Are you from the US?
If you are and you have a law degree I find it very interesting to also make the statement that you are bad at English. 
Also note, I am under the impression that you are from the US because you have not clearly stated that you are "not" from the US.
 ;)

French Canadian. Our formation is on Canadian comon law and French civil law. Quebec has a dualist legal system, English public law (individual - state relations) and French civil private law ( relations between individuals).

Lets get back on the topic.

New or Used.

Would you still buy an S2 or something else?

I am guessing most would buy an S2 either way. Just saying.

The 2 I bought were not "used" to the best of my knowledge. I don't really care. I cared more that they don't pack the units properly and the boards pop out and bounce around and some people, not my case, have lost boards and whole miners to that unnecessary damage.

the damage is the least of it.

even though its totally avoidable.

its the awful service, terrible communications, out&out greed, and obvious disdain for anything other than 'young moolah baayybehhh'

my latest rig is finally hashing (mohstly) but it killed the dented PSU in the process and STILL has missing caps as Bitmain didnt want to supply me with a half dozen...

at current prices and with recent examples of how things can degenerate it makes little sense to gamble on a hit or miss rig with miss or totally miss support.

It does matter weather it is new or used, there are many reasons but the most important one is that you do not want to buy from someone that is competing against you since you are the little guy and will always be at the loosing end.

If a company mines with the hardware that they sell they will not be motivated to sell if they can ROI by mining it is that simple.

If they are only a hardware vendor, their goal is to make profit selling hardware independent of how much you ROI, this will happen eventually some big company that only sells hardware will sell hardware at much lower prices because it is in relation to how much the hardware costs not how much it ROI's and all mining companies that mine with the hardware that they sell will stop selling because they will prefer to mine to maximize profit, but it the end they will get burned.

think of the old days, video cards were sold in regards  to the hardware not in regards the ROI, and you could generate lots of profit, if someone tried to sell a video card based on ROI like on ebay, they could only do it while they  were sold out on newegg, buy.com, amazon, etc as soon as this vendors got new stock the guy that was selling based on ROI on ebay could not do it, since the price based on hardware was like 1/3.

Same thing will happen to Asics, and Satoshi's dream will become true as far as mining, but it depends on us, this are a few things we must do:
1. Do not buy preorder, only from stock.
2. only 1 Asic at a time, if you get burned, it will be only one, and then post here to warn others.
3. Do not accept used gear from hardware vendors, it means they compete against you which is unethical. Nothing wrong with used gear from ebay or craiglist from an independent miner, and independent miner is not a hardware vendor.

And I am sure some of you can complete this idea much better, but what I have mentioned is the start of and idea of how to fix this Asic mining mess, this mess did not exist in the days of CPU and GPU mining.

The reason is that CPU and GPU vendors in general did not sell based on ROI, it was based on hardware cost, the same should be and it will be for ASICS, it is a matter of time, but we can help accelerate this process.

If I ever get used gear from a hardware vendor, I a done with them, based on ethics, not based on weather the hardware works or not.

That might be true Edgar.

I paid.

I got my units.

They were a bit banged up.

They work very well.


That is all I can go on.


Yes there are better service orientated fabs out there but what is in stock and at the right price is the end point for most. Any purchase of a miner from any company is going to be risky.

The point of the thread was these units looked to be "used". My point is no one really seems to care if they buy them and get them in hand in a few days. The alternatives are sadly the norm where waiting and waiting is the reality coupled with all the bad service.

----

On to the reality of mining.

The days of hooking up your ASICs at home one at a time are over.

You can't compete with millions of dollars in investiture from the bigger players. The only way to do that is stop buying ASICs from anyone other than a group you form yourself, a co-op. If you are really keen on breaking or holding off the monopoly that is going to be mining then you have coordinate 100s to 1000s of individual home miners into collectives to compete in pretty much any coin.

The only way to really have democratic coin one that doesn't allow a few with extreme wealthy to control mining is to make a coin that is design resistant and uses existing tech like mobile phones.

I assume all those companies mine a bit befoire selling ;)

who says that they are new?? Does bitmain said that the units are new? They only offer warranty. That`s it

To be fair edgar does tend to have had some bad luck with the mining gear he has bought ;)

I've had two S2's one from batch 2 that arrived with a few cards out of alignment and after about a month the PSU stopped powering up the rig unless I removed a few boards.

So I just popped another PSU I had lying around in there and its been working fine, then I began the elaborate support dance with Bitmain, in the end they are getting it picked up at their expense to send back to them and get me out a new one. No biggie.

I also got a batch 4 from the group buy, much better packaged, everything survived intact and it mined as advertised first time.

As to the car allegory earlier in the thread wtf? How many cars do you import from China? :D

Mexico mostly and parts from Canada. Or Japanese. Do they even make cars in the US anymore?

I mean as an individual buyer, what do you think your chances are of getting it fixed quickly if you imported your car from China and you found someone had been driving around in it for a few weeks before shipping? :)

Just bustin your balls... sorry. I get it. ;D

read the thread

They offer 3 months of warranty, but overclocking voids it.

WTF, I got 3x S1s overclocked and with a mountain of dust.

Funboys , praise Bimaintech!

I wonder sometimes if people aren't just exaggerating.

I have three S1's and an S2. None of my units had any dust accumulation at all.

Even my KNC FrankenJup boards were completely dust free. Although every board did have thermal paste smeared everywhere. But that could have just been from actual testing since they would need to install heatsinks for testing.

In fact, I've never received any miner that has had obvious signs of use.

i have been buying S1s off bitmain in large quantities. its a mixed bag.

Some of them are perfect pristine brand new 2014 units. some of them were 2013 units. some of them had dust. some had dents, some came with extra parts, yes seriously. one of them came with an extra capacitor in the bag, UNUSED!

All my units have worked perfectly.

9 out of 10 they were perfect.

no major issues. only one malfunctioning order out of 200.

The only very minor issues.

1 out of 200 had a broken fan blade, happened during shipping.

1 out of 150 had flaking paint on the support brackets on the end.

1 out of 100 the White ribbon cable came loose and didnt hash at 100% off the bat.

1 out of 50 had dented heatsinks.

1 out of 30 had very light dust.

1 out of 75 had extream dust. This was when their testing facility was underoing construction.

1 out of 10 had excess thermal paste which I appreciated the sight of.

I think that is a pretty solid endorsement for BitMain. I would not hesitate to buy from them again given the price was right and I had a need for more hashing power.  Given the alternatives really BitMain is one of the most solid companies in Bitcoinland for purchasing miners from.

Bitmain had great success with S1. S2 am not sure but from what I read was not a great success.In a china conference they said its goind to be an S3 with 28nm chips.Not yet released but they will need it

If Bitmain will not start selling a new product quickly, like the mentioned 28nm, will be in real trouble.

The competition is getting very very strong.

No more "ancient Chinese" than new American tradition. See BFL for case in point.

You might want to stick to the company and lay off the nationality / race / culture angle. No one likes the racial overtones even from a fellow Quebecois d'accord?

I heard that Bitmains` S3 28nm chip should be out soon.

I guess it will hit the market sometime around the sp30. Will be interesting how their power usage will be, as their 55nm chip only gets ~1.1W/GH in deployed equipment.

However, that should be enough to get to around 0.5W/GH at 28 nm. Let´s see wether they will be delayed with their chips or not.

@ topic

Ofcourse they sell used equipment. They build in huge batches and then deploy at their DCs.

They then sell as much as they can, giving you 3 months guarantee on the equipment. Atleast they know it will work well.

I wonder why the do not open preorders like the did with the S2 Batch1.

I am so curious to see an asian company producing a 28nm product.
I am not referring to clones designed by Bitmine.

The A1 chip is actually owned by Innosilicon.

Bitmine only has the right to chip sales in Europe (and America?) because they payed a part of the development cost.

Bitmine just didn´t see that chinese companies would sell the finished product all over the world.

Right, what I mean is that we have not seen any asian company developing and finishing a complete 28nm product so far.

I am curious to see it with Bitmain, but I have they feelling that they will make a smaller jump down to 40nm rather than 28nm.

Just my thoughts.

Innosilicon is a Chinese company....

They have developed both the 28nm A1 and 28nm A2 (which is a litecoin mining chip).

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is power consumption. If they can get 0.5W at 32nm, i don´t care.
Anything above that would be bad, as Bitfury already sells 0.785W/GH 3.5 TH miners.

He also got a good funding round of 20M USD. He is either going to mass produce that rig or do a die shrink to get even better power consumption. (or both)

There really shouldn´t be much of a market for 1w/GH devices come August.

Bought dozens of S1 from Bitmain - all of them without any major issues (maybe little dust sometimes). Never had to return a single unit, all of them were hashing without any problems.

I had way more issues with PSUs than with S1s :/

Innosilicon sells clone chips as designed by Bitmine or not??

What development did they make?

i wonder sometimes if people arent just basing their so called opinions upon their own experiences and ignoring the FACTS that many many people have been shipped late, broken, dirty, damaged, used hardware.

of which some report perfection, closely followed by back pedalling and less than perfection.

simply put, some people have had good experiences, they should share that and only that - not some made up parables about what they imagine others to be going through.

Bitmain promised reasonable compensation for late, broken hardware - a month later and all he can come up with is more 'virtual coupons' making the compensation actually a rouse.

spend more & rather than fix your crap,  ill give you a 'discount' that isnt actually a reasonable discount & has been given freely to probably thousands of people. (but lets call it compensation so you feel better if you are dense/retarded)

vulgar!

Bitmain is just testing those puppies out, real quick!

They build the product, test to ensure it is working and promptly ship upon order.  What is the issue?  This is a ridicules thread.

It is just an idealistic presumption...but in reality NOT true...

Simply stated...:

This IS the BUSINESS MODEL of if not all, MOST of the miner gear manufacturers...Capisco...?

BitMain, KnC, numerous Dragon Chinese clonings...you name it...are producing miners...and immediately put them to mine...to recuperate as much of the production cost as they can...allowing them to compete on prices...and as soon as they got our orders...same miners are flush to us...with as much profit as they can squeeze out of us..."the foreigners'...Capisco again...?

The same thing like some of individual miners among us are mining for a week...or two...or 1-2 months...and flushing them on E-Bay for some profit...from mining or selling...or both...

The only difference is that this E-Bay tactics is now promoted to corporate business model...some have advantage to be a real manufacturers...the rest...mostly Chinese ...are simply reselling the miners they can get...earlier and cheaper then most of us here...

That's it...Nothing more...and they will NOT change this...the way they make MONEY...I hope all of you "Capisco" now... ;D

Cheers,

ZiG  

ANY American ASIC manufacturer for that matter....BFL,Hashfast,Cointerra,did I miss any....they all suck big balls.Very disappointed in my country  :(

GO CHINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D  I just may move there...I love their women too  ;D

just an FYI for the uninitiated - mainlanders are NOTHING like the well-groomed westernised version you may fantasize over.

they are known around the world for pissing, spitting, shitting in public among other unhygenic practices.

BLund3rdog -That was a 'ridicul3s' post!!

if you genuin3ly fail to s33 th3 issu3, how about minding your own busin3ss, ie poor spelling, and k33p your gu3sstimations & ignoranc3 to yours3lf?

My only comment would be that BitMain has a track record of delivering quite quickly.  With that, I guess I don't care if they have "burned-in" the miner that I purchased, ensured it is working, and taken in any BTC that they accumulated from this activity.  I would highly prefer the BitMain business model over the BFL, KnC, CoinTerra, [insert favorite scamming manufacturer here] model where they mine for Bitcoin with purchased hardware and delay, delay, delay the shipment.

No

we need to get some mexican asic companies!!!

Looks like to clear out all the 55nm Product, :D.  S3 time baby.