Bitcoin Forum

U.S. wants 1.5 billion cash, Argentina says they can't but are willing to settle.  

If I were in Argentina, I'd be moving my savings to Bitcoin ASAP.

Argentina: Won't submit to 'extortion' on debt

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/High-court-rejects-Argentina-s-appeal-over-debt-5555358.php#photo-6463213

Am i the only one who sees the "Cyprus 2011" story here ?  ;D

wait, why is it extortion on debt? if you owe the money, then you have to pay it.. no? can't blame a debt collector from collecting debt.

In my life time, I don't even think the U.S will come close to repaying our debt. It's so huge everyone basically has a 'debt' on them.

But I agree with you. And moving to Bitcoin doesn't help, since the IRS view it as property. Argentina sort of has it bad, also, due to the corruption and such. And if a country want's their money, I'm a hundred percent sure they're going to go through Hell's Bounds and back.

While I agree that a creditor has a right to collect, why the f*&k are they doing it now? Are they trying to cause a collapse? We (the US) send billions to other countries all the time to help them out, why are we now hurting the economy of someone that I assume is an ally?

It's strange that Argentina borrows from another with relatively wide berth in terms of conditions, than calls it 'extortion' when they are meant to return that money.

Argentina had a responsibility towards its citizens to straighten themselves out, and understand that loan obligations is something they have to take into account. Right now they are just funneling and diverting their own failures to anti-US sentiment, while obviously failing to do what they need to do for their own economy with someone else's money.

BECAUSE they are nominally allies, they need to hold themselves to such standards and be straight forward with us in their dealings. Argentina has a history of defaulting conveniently when it suits them best, while taking advantage of the agreement at the expense of others and breaching contractual agreements.

This one has actually been dragged out too long. Argentina is obligated to itself to take care of its own business while meeting the mutual conditions of loans it gets from others. To attempt to frame this as an 'extortion' is a pretty sorry ass excuse.

It should be remembered that the reparations forced onto Germany by the Versaiiles Treaty of World War One were finally paid off in 1980, some 62 years after the end of that brutal conflict.

The will just devalue their currency even more to pay it. We play the bad guy so a corrupt regime can stay in power.  >:(

guess you missed the video's about how mortgages, loans, credit is how money is created.

US 'created' money (no true value went to argentina) but now US wants true value back

now that most people understand bitcoins and altcoins.. i can use a crypto analogy to explain FIAT, rather then the other way around

imagine the USA made an altcoin, called BONDScoin. and said each bondscoin was worth 1million bitcoins (purely because they said so) and then gave 1 bondscoins to argentina. stipulating that they dont want the bondscoins back, but they do want 1.5 million bitcoins back

No, I see it too coz I lived it  >:(

BONDScoin to da moon!!!

what the problem ...  ;D argentine can pay with FED bon of treasury  ::)

Argentina should take a leaf out of America's book.
Repay the 'debt' by printing a load of Pesos at the current US$ exchange rate.

Hasn't Argentina defaulted a few times now
Or am I mixing it up with another state nope looks at the link and thinks their is a place called the Foreign Debt Museum
That said it looks like these bonds will become Junk soon

I might be wrong but I think the Federal Reserve print their money too.
So, they wont accept it.

Correct, they've defaulted a number of times in recent history.

You should read the article and a few related sources.  They borrowed money, some which would have been from pooled private savers, pensions etc, and they defaulted.  A company hoovered up the worthless bonds and sued them to pay back, which they won and the US courts verdict means they either pay or get cut off.  They actually have the cash $ but don't wish to spend it on repaying this debt.  They want to be at the party but not bring a bottle.

... bond holders... so i think we are on the same page..

What the issue is, for those who are not familiar with the backstory:

Several years ago Argentina issued debt to investors. They were perceived as risky and had to agree to certain terms. One of the terms was that they agreed to give up "sovereign immunity" for the debt in question and disputes would be resolved by the US court system. In other words they gave up certain rights that countries normally have when issuing debt and in the event of a dispute the court case would be herd in US Federal Court.

Some time later Argentina was having trouble "servicing" it's debt and worked with creditors to restructure. A good portion of bond holders agreed to a reduced principle and reduced interest payments (they took losses). Not all bond holders agreed.

Argentina has decided to pay interest to bondholders that agreed to take losses while not pay anything to bond holders that didn't.

......

Now the US has said that if it does not pay the bondholders that did not take losses (they are in default on those bonds and due owe money to these bondholders) then Argentina would not be able to use the uS financial/bank system to pay bondholders that did take losses (bondholders that they want to pay). 

Basically, some holders accepted a partial payout, some said no, we want it all. Argentina wants to pay to the ones in the deal, and nothing to the ones who want it all (the so called holdouts). The court said no, you can't do that.

You can not force anyone to not default. If there is no money to pay in due time, there is a default and that reality can not be changed. A dual standard, paying some and not others, is an act of will. It is a game to try to consume more of other parties' money (continuation of "access" to the market). It is wrong.

Anyway, any government should be able to manage without lending. Continually expanded lending means the inevitable crisis down the road.

Fuck yes we can. I have student loan debt. Am I going to pay it ? Nope. Not ever. Over my dead fucking body will they get a penny from me.

Why? Because I don't want to fund the evil banksters who prey on impressionable young 18 year olds who don't know jack shit about the world, 18-year olds who are pressured by society into college they can't afford.

Same reason I don't buy cigarettes.

Huh?  You had a choice to go to uni and further your education.  You want to blame *evil bankers* because you cant do high school math and make a real decision at 18?

debt is fine as long as its your own currency, just print it

Share Argentina can't scam their creditors by printing USD like USA can  :(

Shame US can't retaliate against all those nations dumping and bribing their way to compete and undercut world markets to their advantage, claiming 'cultural differences' whenever convenient.

Oh wait, we can :)

Enjoy paying the debt you took willingly either through plain irresponsibility or naivte the other way around. In prison or destroyed credit rating.

It's this kind of bitch mentality that does more damage than good for fight against corruption.

This.

Argentina owes the money.

A court of competent jurisdiction has affirmed the validity of the debt and its call.

Argentina needs to pay up.

Perhaps Argentina should be repossessed?

:)

Was it really a choice, though? From childhood it's drilled into our heads that the ONLY way to a decent life is through higher education, which has become completely unaffordable for the vast majority of Americans.

Suffer a life of wage-slavery and abuse, or go to college. Hmm yeah no pressure there, totally a legit decision the average 18 year old is mature and informed enough to make!

That must be why the USA has a trillion dollar student loan debt bubble (http://strikedebt.org/), you massively ignorant fuckwit. I beg you, read a book or shut the hell up and get out of the way. Your ignorance disgusts and enrages me.

That's because your ignorance enables the oligarchs to continue their enslavement of the populace of this world, and that can no longer be tolerated by any decent, well-informed, ethical human being. Ignorance in the information age is totally shameful and unforgivable. It's so easy to learn, now.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2011/06/13/news/economy/college_tuition_middle_class/chart-wage-tuition3.top.jpg

http://assets.nerdwallet.com/blog/finance/files/2012/08/Screen-Shot-2012-08-30-at-11.31.54-AM.png

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/02/03/opinion/03rfd-debate/03rfd-debate-custom1.gif

https://i.imgur.com/VA20qrR.jpg

How ironic that I'M the one who did his homework. Better luck next time, you clueless assclown.

Somebody poked you in the right places for you to squeal that much :)

Should have taken extra care to balance your funds, and win scholarships. Middle class gets hit hard because of tuitions, but from my experience, those who really try to look for necessary funds outside of their comfort zone find more of them they thought.

This is speaking to various college students of various backgrounds, from filthy poor to filthy rich and everything in the middle. You just sound like a frustrated impotent.

Any college tuition benefit organization would not like a student who thinks blaming 'brainwashing' at early age for their poor choices. You don't sound like you know what that really means.

Typical college kids these days. I would only pity you because you were raised by sub standard environment and cannot be bothered to know any better.

Differences between US and Argentina govt debt: http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html (http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html)

Oh, yes, I often check there to see how well the 'austerity measures' are doing to help get us back on track here in the UK.  >:( :( :o

As Beliathon quite rightly infers in his posts, we are largely oblivious slaves to this system, but as the fraud becomes more widely recognised and reacted to by the average punter, then eventually that system will become unsustainable and change will happen.

In short, Argentina doesn't actually owe the US anything other than the cost of printing those dollars, and seeing as they were more than likely only computer credits anyway, then (going by bitcoin payment fees), they perhaps need to add $1 to cover their costs.  ;D

You forgot the part were they created billions of bondscoins, driving the value of bondscoins down to near nothingness. So that they can't be used to pay of the 'debt'.


I believe someone won a case once claiming he did not owe the bank any money because the bank never owned the money in the first place or something.

Billions send to other countries that are borrowed from other countries or that are printed from nothing by fed. The US gouvernment will never be able to pay back their debts. Maybe they can, but before they have to inflate the US dollar in a massive way.

If China makes this move the US does on Argentinia, the US gouvernment will be bankrupt instant.

I cannot believe that the US gouvernment is feeded by a PRIVATE institute called FED. It should be clear who has the control of the USA. The private capital and not the people or citizens. Like everywhere in the world ;-)

Just my point of view....

That's exactly right, and well said. Believe me when I say not only can the US government not afford to pay back their debts, they never had any intention of doing so. There's a reason we have a sprawling military empire.

When you've got guns to the heads of everyone in the world, you don't HAVE to repay any debts - ever. Who's going to make you? Think about it.

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."
-Mao Tse-Tung

no i didnt forget.
the idea of my bondscoin analogy is correct. true value of bondscoin is zero.. just like all alts, because you cant spend a bond or a bonscoin with any merchants. but the coin developer (USA) declare/speculate a value (purely because they said so), this is why USA dont want the bondscoins back.. they want something with true value.. bitcoins + extra bitcoins in interest

EG
USA -> bondscoins -> argentina -> bitcoins -> USA
USA -> bonds -> argentina -> dollars / gold -> USA

bonds / bondscoin disapear in the middle (argentina is left holding the bag) but real value is demanded back
bondscoin / bonds. are just a no utility, no where to spend, pump and dump financial mechanism. utterly useless in reality. they are only used as a contract mechanism to say "if i gave you something that YOU agree is worth $1bill, you agree to give me back $1.5bill in actual dollar bank notes".. i then send you a piece of paper with 6 characters on it '$1BILL'. or i send you a useless altcoin that YOU have agreed is worth $1billion because i said thats what its worth and you accepted it. yet you cant wipe your ass with it or spend it at walmart. but by you accepting it. you have now made this fake value, because you have now made USA $1.5bilion (once they hold you at gunpoint to repay it)

...

A guy I have bought Bitcoin from says that BTC is catching on in a big way down there in Argentina, due to their inept and dictatorial .gov.

And I read somewhere that BTC goes for a hefty premium there (30%!).

Two takeaways:

1) NEVER lend money to Argentina, never, ever.

2) BTC has its real uses, especially in moving one's own capital out.

China cannot to this to the US because the US has not defaulted on its debt.
Argentina has.

Argentina doesn't owe the US anything.
They owe the private holders of Argentinian government bonds.
The fact that the bondholders sued and won in the US courts doesn't mean Argentina owe anything to the US government.

Private bondholders of foreign debt are also private owners of USA Incorporated. Remember, the political elite, the financial elite, the corporate elite - all these are the SAME people, members of the SAME caste in the USA.

Here and now it's a tiny fraction of the population who own everything, domestic property, foreign debt, profits from war, and the reigns of political power. They are the polyglot neo-oligarchy of neo-feudal America.

If you don't believe me, watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM).

Blah blah blah.
This is not a government-government conflict, it is private citizens suing a government.

Your distinction between public and private entities is wholly erroneous, since nearly all modern governments are for-profit enterprises that are privately owned, just like the FED. It's a big scam, and you're the mark. Capiche?

Wow.  Major LOL's, thanks.  You should've gone to community college to start with, and chosen a major that justifies the cost of your education.  The overinflated tuition costs are the problem, not the lenders.  The more people that go to cheaper schools for their undergrad degrees, the cheaper tuition will get.  Undergrad only gets you an interview anyway, nobody cares what school it's from if it's not ivy league.


more LOL's.

Ahh, the new voice of modern fascism. "You should've studied something else, because everyone knows the point of higher education is to make money, rather than enrich oneself with knowledge."

Fuck off, ignoramus. This mindset of reducing university education to a scheme to increase one's earning has corrupted the entire higher education system (and everything else for that matter) into a shallow profit-making scheme that lines up and bends over for corporate interests.

I'll study whatever I damn well please. And guess what bitch, your taxes will pay for it whether you like it or not. What do you think happens to my unpaid debt? That's right motherfucker, TAXES end up paying for it.

People like you are the reason ETHICS and CIVICS are no longer studied anywhere, and the reason America is in the sorry state it is.

Now excuse me while I go study french literature and ancient greek history. No, I won't pay a dime for it. Why? Because education - like decent shelter, food, and healthcare - should be provided to all human beings as a birthright.

I'm TAKING that right as my own (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YR4CseY9pk), and there's nothing you can do to stop me. It's already done. You enjoy being a corporate slave in the nightmare future you're helping to create with your willful ignorance.

For the rest of you with brains and consciences, let's STRIKE DEBT (http://strikedebt.org/) together.

Define fuck off, please.  I thought I was doing right now.

Sorry, I meant to clarify that when I typed it earlier.  What I meant is that I respect your right to study whatever you want, but I don't pity you that it didn't pay for itself via ROI.

No comments on the community college point that I made?

It was a government borrowing from private persons and free assosications of private persons. They freely agreed in advance to use the US court system in case of conflict. Had they not, they probably would not have gotten the loan in the first place.

When I was 18, I scored above 1300 / 1600 on my SATs, and was therefore led to believe that community college was beneath me - and attending anything less than a private school would be doing a disservice to my budding intellect.

I do regret not starting at a community college, but please understand that as a "brilliant young man", I was under tremendous pressure from my parents and my school counselors to attend the best school to which I was admitted.

The best school to which I was admitted entrance cost 37,000 USD $ per year. Hardly affordable for me or my family, but that didn't matter.

Getting back on topic, here's a vid on Bitcoin in Argentina (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e__m-w4N7NI).

Getting back off-topic:

First, I am all for civil disobedience, non-violent protests, not paying taxes, watching big banks, etc. implode.

Then there was some initial confusion about the OP and who owed who what, and to those who read the thread, it was cleared up.  Then you came in with your guns blazing saying fuck people who lent other people money under honest terms, don't pay back those debts and fuck other people who disagree because they don't read gud!  More or less.  And you give links showing how student debt and tuition has risen.

Then I was a little cocky with my response to that because, hey this is a public forum and eavesdropping is OK...and I didn't fully clarify one of my thoughts so I gave you some more ammo, etc.

which brings us to your last post about your situation and how you came to this debt that you agreed to.  I can relate a bit because I was not guided by my parents very well, whereas you were misguided by your parents.  I'm OK with my parents because they gave us the essentials and raised us way better than they were raised...and I am raising my kids way better than I was.  That's all one can ask of his/her parents I think.

Your parents were not "impressionable young 18 year olds who don't know jack shit about the world" but they guided you into a school and debt that you did not need.  They read those documents I assume and gave you the OK.  They told anyone who would listen that you were going to a private school and may or may not have felt superior when in the company of parents of public/community/state students.

The private school costs just like the luxury SUV costs.  And the lenders provided it.  I personally do without, that's how I fight.  The only lenders get my money are the mortgage company and my wife's student loans.  But she's part Italian so it's OK that she's fascist?

Hell yes, fuck the banks!  I do agree with you partially, but not the stealing part.

no kidding...america demanding argentina's debt be paid off?  now that's funny.

I wonder what would happen if china did the same to the us with regards to their debt?

No, Argentina's bond holders are demanding that Argentina pay its debts.


Has the US defaulted on any debt to China?

Clearly not by you, you've taken what you can and no intent to pay it back.  Well done.  While you rage against a system, you are an example of its excess:  you believe the world owes you and you will take.  You wont something for nothing, buy now don't pay later.  That is the reason for the economy you hate, because governments are doing the same by borrowing on the never never.  You are just the same as Argentina, they wanted to borrow, don't want to pay back.  Individual or state, its the same problem.

LOL.

'Beneath me' 'Budding intellect'.

'Neo Feudal America'

HAHAHAHAHAAHA this kid. My sides.

When Argentina issued it's debt and restructured it's debt it had a very bad credit rating and agreed that the US would be able to resolve any disputes (via it's court system). This court merely interoperated the agreement between Argentina and it's bond holders.

Argentina simply wants to not pay/adhere to what it agreed to.

Property is theft. If you don't agree with stealing, you don't agree with capitalism. Come out from under your bubble of privilege and see capitalism for what it really is: a horror show.

Thanks, I think so too. Sorry if you think my unwillingness to donate more to the profits of some rich asshole banksters makes me a bad person. Strike debt. (http://strikedebt.org/)

To be clear, I had every intention to pay it back when I started. My views changed as I got older and became disillusioned of the lies and indoctrination of my youth. I see the whole charade for what it is - just another scam in the kleptocracy known as the USA.

Like you and most Americans, I was a clueless slave for the first 20 or so years of my life. That's what mass education is for (https://www.johntaylorgatto.com/bookstore/dumbdnblum1.htm), after all. No more. I am awake with righteous fury. Sage Carlin tells it like it is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q). If you're not pissed off, you're not paying attention.

Every time a posh kid who was straight up raised in 1st world countries talk about 'indoctrination' I feel like my liver is about to give from all the laughing.

Poor, poor you. Living the the horrible concentration camp of 1st world nations and scrounging for a living underneath a landfill so that you may live to see another day and

...wait

no.


Figures, some joke like carlin is your 'sage' haha I bet you get wet every time snowden and assaunge opens their spoiled traps too, pretending to be 'patriots' or 'revolutionaries'.

You should follow your role model 'Chelsea' Manning's lead and go full homosexual right now. You are already half way there.

...or maybe we're not pissed off because we chose not to go into massive amounts of debt?

You mean you're not suffering today because the self from a decade ago didn't choose to go into massive debt chasing a broken American Dream?

Yeah, is getting very popular in Argentina. The community is strong and growing bigger.

The Bitcoin is trading in Buenos Aires around Bitstamp price, in USD/EUR value. The problem is the ARS/OtherFiat price.

There is the so called "official" dollar price (now at 8,1 ARS/USD) and the "informal" or "blue dollar" (black/grey market, not banks, now at 12,20 ARS/USD). Yes! 50% gap.

Here you can check that prices. (http://www.ambito.com/economia/mercados/monedas/dolar/) You almost cannot buy foreign cash in banks, nor gold / silver.

So, the BTC´s are traded in Argentina at the blue dollar rate. But in USD/EUR, just at average int. price.

Not yet, but once the US loses its ability to print USD it will have to default on its debts; it won't have any choice. At that point life will start get interesting. Like Argentina, it doesn't have the funds to pay any of its obligations without printing. Why the US even cares about a $1.5B debt is interesting. The Fed prints and shoves more than that into the DOW/S&P every day to give the appearance that the US economy is healthy, rather than let the stock markets reflect the depression we are currently in, and have been in, since the Iraq war began.

As to universities, people who have spent a lot of time learnng about bitcoins from both a technical and financial (and ethical) perspective will almost certainly get a better education than 90% of colleges can provide. Even most of the revered East coast/Ivy league schools, with some notable exceptions like MIT, are about making connections (and as someone else commented, getting interviews) rather than actually learning anythng useful. Also, if you want to learn about French literature or whatever, the information is out on the internet. Better yet, sell some BTC and go to France. 

Student loans are total, utter bullshit. They are designed to get people into debt early and keep them there. Anyone who uses the term "credit report" as though it has any validity beyond creating suckers, needs to rethink a few things. There are some great smaller banks and credit unions but Wall street is just a pile of welfare sluts sucking the economy dry. If bitcoin succeeds then they will be fucked over more than by any defaulted student loans.

Broken and useless for the ones who made dumbass decisions.

Prosperous and wide open road for people who has good head on their shoulders and asked 'how' and 'when' rather than WAAAAHHHHHHHH

Winners and losers in the field. One of them is here crying about a very childish mistake he made which many of his peers did not. At least, ones he didn't have what it took to associate with :)

China has better chance of defaulting on its internal loans than US defaulitng any time soon.

Do you have any idea how loose the book keeping and corruption is in china? The place makes bernie madoff look like mother teresa.

If anyone actually did some legitimate check on the financial records in china the whole country would have more holes than a bee hive.

If you take all future obligations the US has promised our real national debt is north of 100 trillion dollars. That much money doesn't even exist.

Wow, some of us are trying super-hard to make that no-fly list...

Possible strategy for the student today:
Max out all form of loans. Quickly so you do not have to consume to much while you do. Buy bitcoins. Go bancrupt, do not tell about your coins. Leave the scene, live without banks, spying, property that can be confiscated.

Remember seeing the debt clock a few years back at half of what it is now

Sure, as long as "good head on their shoulders" is code for "white and from an upper-middle caste family". Such ignorance...

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/08/27/business/economy/allscores.jpg

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2011/06/13/news/economy/college_tuition_middle_class/chart-wage-tuition3.top.jpg

http://www.tcf.org/assets/images/blog_images/20130613graph-u.s.-college-graduation-rates-are-rising-but-the-rest-of-the-world-is-1.png

Even with more and more people getting college degrees, still the wages stagnate:

http://thecurrentmoment.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/productivity-and-real-wages.jpg

You'd certainly do better financially than most students! The sad part is most of these kids will never have any money with which to buy Bitcoins.

Fact: Capitalism is mass-theft and mass-exploitation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZU3wfjtIJY).

HAHAHAHA

I didn't realize i was white and from 'upper middle caste', with yearly income of below 10,000 usd (inflation adjusted) who qualified for a full ride based both on need and merit.

You one dumbass fool you made some really elementary mistakes in financial judgement. You expected things will fall into your lap without even thinking about what YOU need to do to secure your own future.

Everything you did you did out of your own volition. You are no where close to being an 'enslaved, oppressed capitalist serf' as you would love to think.

Stop cryin and go check yourself.

How loud you cry, yet there you are using your computer, powered by electricity on the internet, linking to youtube... all products of capitalism.  Go live a wicker hut in the 3rd world for a while and come back to tell us how awful capitalism is (or isn't).

Man, why are capitalists always so weak at argument? I've destroyed this pitiful argument so many times I frankly can't even be bothered anymore. Hint: You don't understand history very well. It's a series of revolutions.

There was a time before capitalism, there will be a time after capitalism. "This too shall pass". Nothing escapes the march of time - not even your overwhelming ignorance.

capitalism is good ... when money is hold by the people.
not by a private interest ...

don't be assuming stuff. everyone is jumping ship on the usd reserve currency.

http://www.ipsnews.net/2014/06/argentina-once-more-on-the-map-invited-by-brics/

the brics are using other currencies now other than the usd reserve currency to settle trades. this is obviously unacceptable and argentina must be liberated.

I'm well aware.  I wonder if you are aware of what its like?  Really like?  Please try it and report back. But I sense you will would rather decry it instead, its far easier to say its undesirable while enjoying all the benefits as you obviously do.  I also look forward to something after, as long as its an advancement. 

It's been well said that capitalism is the worst economic system - except for all the alternatives. If you think you are oppressed in a free-market society, try being on the wrong side of a society with unfree markets. (Or to put it another way - if your complaint is that you are being oppressed by the economically powerful, you are actually arguing FOR free markets - against such manipulation and oppression - not against them. I can guarantee that in a socialist/communist system the centralization of economic power will lead to greater corruption and thus oppression of the masses. That's how it always works in practice.)

Argentina is no stranger to collapse. Hopefully their citizens have learned to have some money in gold, silver and bitcoin.

Fucking hilarious to see a crying fool thinking he can call others 'ignorant'. GTFO and learn some common sense and maturity please....you sound like a bitchy 15 year old who thinks he 'knows' because of some half baked 'rational argument that does nothing to hide your actual shallow intentions.

This will likely happen to places like Argentina.

After they will basically default twice in the span of ~13 years their currency will likely be devalued in the ForEx markets causing high inflation throughout the country.

Without a stable currency to use hopefully the people of Argentina will look to bitcoin

Pedro, August 2014: Shit, fleeced AGAIN! Next time, I will go bitcoin/gold in advance!

In the not-too-distant future they'll look back on capitalism and say, "I wonder if you are aware of what it was REALLY like? It was horrible, the vast majority lived as slaves in all but name..."

I'm afraid you are out of your depth, friend. Your myopia blinds you from the truth.

Don't worry, we leave the vast majority of that debt to our children and grandchildren, essentially selling them off as slaves to foreign banksters before they're even born...

...Surely there won't be any negative political ramifications of that fact, eh?

You keep making vague, stupid, grandoise statements without backing them up. I agree that the modern western world consists of what I call "plantation-states" - where the citizens are functionally slaves forced to support the agenda of the elites through direct and indirect taxation. (Much like 19th century plantation slave owners would allow their skilled-trade slaves to keep a portion of their free-lance earnings while pocketing the rest.) However this is not due to capitalism but rather precisely the opposite, because it occurs through the use of centralized political power working against open competition and free-market capitalism. You correctly perceive the injustice, but have the remedy and the malady mixed up.

Typical ignorant 1st world kid trying to sound profound, and all the education he got ever did waas to make him even more or a loud mouth.

Also, none of you even known what a plantation is or what slavery looks like, so don't dream you actually know anything. That includes any blacks today.

Why would they need to move it to bitcoin?

It's a bad habit I must admit. The truth is I am in possession of a commodity even rarer than Bitcoin. It's called "radical imagination", and for me it is a feeling similar to being in love. An emotional state that can be difficult to express in words, but for the first time in a long time I have hope for humanity. I will share something personal about myself, with no ego I will tell you I have what could be considered "exceptional" intelligence, and for most of my life that has meant a great deal of suffering, depression, and anxiety. Imagine yourself as a peace-loving, compassionate, non-violent human being who is stuck living in a world of violent chimps. Imagine your entire childhood being held under the power of these creatures, and you may have a glimpse into my suffering. The one good thing about suffering is that it is extremely fertile soil for growing knowledge. I survived the worst periods of my life and in the aftermath sought desperately to understand WHY I have suffered so much, and this journey of self-understanding led me to question everything I had once believed.

True wisdom is not the accumulation of ever more knowledge. True wisdom comes from UNLEARNING all the false truths that you were so damn sure about. You have been lied to your entire life, by people who have been lied to their entire lives. That's reality. Hard to grasp, I know.

And yeah, I know, more grandiose claims without backing them up, more asserting my superior intelligence. What can I tell you, I'm speaking from the heart without ego, there's no other way for me to tell it than to tell it as it is.
 
No, I have nothing mixed up. Capitalism - like the nation-state - necessitates systematic heirarchy-based violence to exist. Just as was the case in the age of outright slavery, ours is a world governed by violence and the threat thereof. Wage-slavery has the same requirement as slavery.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, on this little spec of dust we call Earth there is a zero-sum game between violence and reason. As one waxes, the other wanes. In the end our survival will come down to whether or not we allow reason to vanquish the rule of violence once and for all.

Bitcoin offers our first real opportunity to move past the "might makes right" paradigm of capitalism and the nation-state, and move toward a more just, equal, sane world that is governed by reason. We damn well better take it.

Really it's too late for that. But the point would be if it was in Bitcoin he could not be seized. The private investors will be attempting to seize assets all over the world including even things like spacelaunch contracts.

For all the bluff and bluster, I don't think you really even understand what capitalism is.  I think you are confusing it with something else, political systems probably.  Bitcoin is fundamentally capitalist and a future based on it would certainly not do anything to alleviate problems of equality - those with will be richer than those without.  Bitcoin has no impact either way on the concepts of nation states, which are not defined by their use of currency.  Capitalism doesn't care for violence, that's a socio-political matter, not for economics.  If  profit can be made from violence, it certainly will be, but greater profit and more importantly productivity can be made without violence, so that's where the real capitalist want to be.  And "Wage-slavery" is a trite term, an oxymoron that doesn't understand what actual slavery really is, the affects or impact on the subjects of it.  Other than that, you talk a lot of sense.  ::)

The beauty of the current system of wage slavery is not that you are (physically) forced to become one, more that you are conditioned throughout childhood to become one. It is very difficult to shake off 20+ years of imprinting for most people.

So Argentina can become the next Puerto Rico?  No thanks.

sure to hold your savings in "traditional" curencies would be a big mistake for Argentina people now

Even if they had it in bitcoin, private investors could seize whatever assets Argentina were to buy with their bitcoin when they go to spend it

True capitalism is lasseiz-faire capitalism.  It's a french word meaning "let do".  In this kind of system,
the only actions that are illegal are those of initiating force, frauds, or threats against others.
It is the antithesis of violence.

If you advocate anything else, then you are advocating, to various degrees, statism, socialism,
and force against the individual.

Debt is slavery.

Depends on how they did things.  If they only spend the BTC in places that don't recognize the debt they will be fine.  If the debt was not valid in China, they could purchase items in China shipped directly to Argentina.   I am not advocating this, I am just pointing it out. 

Western Union now prohibits sending money to the USA from Argentina, so Bitcoin may be the only way out.

That would make sense since they need money to prevent their currency collapsing and are shutting out all the channels
In my opinion though you are right to get money out of that country you would use Bitcoin
Getting money in is easier though lol.

The investors have intercepted ships before to pay for the judgment. What is to say that that the goods from China (in this example) could not be intercepted in route to Argentina?

"So what if they need the food/clothes/materials to build shelter, WE NEED OUR PROFITS MORE! We earned that money fair and square!"

Capitalism always eventually devolves down to its root violence/force, doesn't it?

Your perception of capitalism and the alternatives is precisely backwards. The only alternative to free markets (capitalism) is unfree markets, in which one party is coercively forced into a transaction they would otherwise not make. It sounds like you have some experience with these unfree markets and have been brainwashed into calling them capitalism, when they are the precise opposite. Socialists are well known in the real world for their sequestration of profits "for the good of the people" into their own pockets, the needs of the people notwithstanding. The poverty of communism, the mediocre living standards of socialism, and the gulags and prison camps of such societies are proof enough of that.

In a free-market system (if there are any that remain in the world today), if one party is being coerced they should have redress under the rule of law in the courts and other public venues to make their case and seek redress. It is through the rule of law and voluntary transactions between equal, free parties that you will find a solution to your ills, not in desiring to lord it over other institutions and doing unto them as you perceive they've done unto you.

+1. By definition, laissez faire capitalism prohibits inititiary force against innocent value producers.  All other systems including socialism, communism, etc require force backed by threats of violence.

 Not sure if he is open minded enough to understand your post.  Brainwash is an apt term here.

Someone needs to explain which version of capitalism we're using because if there's one thing I'm sure about, it is that markets are not free.

There is only one, and that is where markets are free. Now you have to understand what free is: Actors may buy or sell without being forced physically, not held and not pushed around, and also are not subject to fraud.

Edit: If the market changes due to other causes, like the coffee price rises if there is a bad summer, that is not unfree. Also if the price changes due to other actors freely enters bids or asks, is also not unfree. Only when other individuals alone or in association uses force not compatible with the above rights, is it unfree.

A typical non-free market nowadays, is where some entity by means of physical force reserves for itself all selling or all buying, or grants it to a privileged company. The same to a lesser degree if that entity demands taxes or fees. This doesn't mean that the price function is destroyed, rather it is skewed. The stamp fee on house sales is an example. Most markets are mostly free, with a small tax placed on everyone alike, including neighbouring markets. There is only one market, the global one, if you take the birds view.

The interest rate market, which should among other things regulate the volume of investment contra consumption,  is grossly skewed by the hand of the central banks.

Cyprus, Argentina..the first of many.

On another note, now that alt coins are developing true anonymity, the governments are really screwed. Tax revenues will drop like a rock.  Everybody that has a computer has a TAX HAVEN. Who needs Switzerland when you have anonymity and an encrypted hard drive.

So in reality, the governments are driving the growth of virtual currencies. Adopter just need to be patient and let the gov do their part.

I think it's not a problem of capitalism. The problem is the money system itself likes it's implented in the world.

Where does money come from? Every $ running around is the debt someone has made at some point. Money and debt is essentially the same. To put new money in the system, it's only possible by credits. But each credit has an interest rate. So the sum of all debts incl. interest is always higher than the amount of existing money.

Money is no longer for payment, it's more like a weapon. Economic hitman it's called. Put countries in the debt trap and get all out of the country that has value. This results in destroyed countries and helpless people.

To keep the system running, more and more debts are needed. The wheel turns faster and faster. And now we are at a point where it's obviuosly that the system will not work any longer. Argentina, Cyprus lots more to come. The only advantage the USA has is that they can print there own money. If they cannot do that, USA would be 3rd world country instant.

And here is the chance of bitcoin to make this f**ing world a more fair.

less corrupted probably, but not sure about fairness when you look at bitcoin wealth distribution...
Latecomers from developing countries will have a hard time coming in the game

as far as i know argentina has some sort of a dollar cult there. nobody wants peso but dollar is like forbidden fruit for average mortals. though dollar black market is thriving there. i believe that unlike in cyprus where those loosing most money being well informed investors driving the price up, in argentina situation might be different as btc is now having much larger market cap and amount of people getting into it will be limited to a small number of wealthy people who already hold dollar. if there to be foreign btc traders on the ground, would they buy pesos?

to me the situation looks like fed is desperate to have some usd demand not minding collapsing a country or two in the process.

A bit mafia like isn't it? Get a business owner into debt then use their credit lines to acquire merchandise, sell said merchandise and leave the owner in banruptcy.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2014/06/could-argentina-default-on-its-debt.html


edit:

guess which payment mechanism would be most suitable one in such scenario? everybody's breathing down their necks.

It isn't so much governments that are driving the growl of virtual currencies it is governments that are unable to meet their obligations.

Love that!!

Just afraid that at some point governments are going to try getting back those taxes they're missing!

their currency is very volatile and their citizens do not like to use it as they don't know how much their money will buy from day to day