Bitcoin Forum

The Typical Household, Now Worth a Third Less


More...http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/27/business/the-typical-household-now-worth-a-third-less.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/27/business/the-typical-household-now-worth-a-third-less.html)
Typical class warfare lingo but yeah, things are trending down here in the home of the brave. Anecdotally, I know plenty of people living paycheck to paycheck while I stack coins for the future.

WELP, I guess you guys should come up here to the great white north, full of less economic troubles then its southern counterpart! and 100% more Moose!

I think this is the result of the (D) being successful in getting lenders to lend to the poor aka "minorities"  and as a result minorities had looser lending standards and purchased homes they could not afford. As a result people who lived in minority neighborhoods experienced higher then otherwise looses on their home values.

So, have the Americans finally begun living within their means and income? What were the last figures that an American household was owing to the rest of the world?

Problem is, poor people in the US still are way better than middle class elsewhere.

Middle class in US is not always better off than elsewhere. Consider Dubai and Qatar.

It is because culturally we (americans) feel that we must own a car, house, tvs, and other things for entertainment. As a result we borrow money. We all know what happens when we borrow money. Basically we made it culturally unacceptable to be poor so people would rather go further in debt than appear to be poor which they really are.

Elsewhere here means everywhere beyond the US, so you should take an average income across the world to make comparison valid.

If you take the average it may give other results and indicate that, but living standards in Qatar or Dubai are very different than say India.

Their population is small and they had the luck to be born literally in oil. When the oil reservoirs are finally depleted, they will return to where they started from, that is to nomadism and camel breeding (the richest will obviously emigrate to Europe or America). And their ultra-modern high-scrapers cities of today will be slowly but surely devoured by sand and desert.

Good point, once they run out of oil they'll go back to primitive states. How many years would that take?

Very good point.
In fact, I think that this is true not just for Americans but also other western countries as well (plus Eastern Europe, Japan, South Korea etc.)
More and more we live in materialistic world where just money is important, not any more family, kids, friends etc.
But, there is one huge difference between social system in USA and in Europe.
In Europe we have very good social service, free basic health care, very good support for unemployed, free schools and universities etc.
In USA is different.
If you lost job you loose everything, and very quickly from nice, comfortable house you can sleep in the street.
From my viewpoint social system in Europe is much better and supportive for people in need.

Seem somebody steal the productivity gain:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rpnBSLI0BzU/TcUsChxB-dI/AAAAAAAAPSo/c9GwZd2l0Cs/s1600/mfg.jpg

No one knows for sure, but oil could definitely follow the fate of coal, if, say, tomorrow a cheap way of thermonuclear fusion is invented. Apparently, it won't go away at all or the demand for it will decrease immediately, but the prices will be affected significantly.

Good point, and oil have a lot of usage in industry too. They will not lose revenue (It's cause of that i don't trust big oil conspiracy). But OPEP will lose something very important for them, political power.

So the oil of tomorrow will be Helium-3 (which is rare on Earth but abundant on the Moon) ;) 

maybe deuterium, boron or just hydrogen. I think would be good if it's something in the sea  ;)

Americans have a lot of bitcoins, Oil and human capital but they are too much in debt and their industrie is getting relatively way smaller

Assets are capitalized and debt are socialized. So there are still handful of people with a lot of money.

America need a smaller government to stay prosperous. And close the EPA.

Factoring in differences in food prices and rent prices the American Middle class doesn't really have it all that greatly.


Living in a country in Europe with better and cheaper food, smaller but better built and cheaper housing and better mass transit really cancels out any difference in monetary wealth.


Money isn't everything. We have to improve other facets of our lives first. We need to get back to having fresh produce that is not wastefully mass produced, tasteless, disgusting and bland.

We need to build proper houses were people have privacy in them. (In the US it's shocking how a lot of houses have no sound proofing at all).

As long as we make life impossible to live we shouldn't be surprised that it is.

If we don't push for the things we believe in we'll just keep getting screwed by a couple of companies who claim everything as their own.



Those statistics are really interesting. The real question now is, what are we going to do about it? Aren't we obligated as a nation to stop working at jobs that offer nothing to us but slavery? To form better societies for ourselves in which we determine our own future?

It's ridiculous how companies expect people to be competing with each other for jobs that can barely pay the rent. And it's sad that people can not find an alternative way of life.

1.It is, in the developed world a lot of productivity gain are lost with food and housing price increase cause of regulation.

2.Are you sure for food and housing ? Is mass transit subsided ?

3.I want to be able to decide for myself, i don't want you decide for me what i want.

4.Alternative to cronyism is freedom, not totalitarian socialism like you want.

American wages have been stagnating in America for decades now, partly thanks to freemarket globalization, the erosion of workers rights and the lack of union membership.

Have you even go somewhere else in the world ?

Carlos Slim runs the largest telecommunication monopoly in Mexico and his workers are all unionized and get to retire with full benefits at age 50 and those workers live well in retirement.

Even the US military, which for a long time had early retirement, is now jacking up their retirement age.  Blame unions as much as you want - I don't see any workers in the US taking the initiative to protect their own rights. 

Union has been long destroyed during the 80's.

I take it you haven't seen their man-made islands?

Will be washed away by the sea in a matter of a few years if abandoned or left unattended. And what's so intriguing about these artificial islands?

How so?  I still see unions all over the place.  It's the fact that unions simply don't do their job anymore.  When was the last time the union ever stepped in to stop an employer from firing a young worker for no reason?

After the production costs, I highly doubt they'll be left unattended. The photos and videos make them seem really cool, and there are a lot of top investors buying property on them.

I see the growth inside the system, which is brought by their industries, by finance infrastructure of the government that has made a lot of pull since last 2 decades.

There is a huge reason Americans are getting more poor.


We keep giving jobs to illegal immigrants who do the job for less than min. wage and are happy to do it. 

The min. wage is a joke compared to what inflation says it should be, and thus all wages are slightly lowered due to this.  College education is literally raping us, it costs so much to go to school that people need a full time job just in order to pay for school. 

So many things need to change or America will go down the drain...

The cost of maintenance of these islands should be huge. And I have doubts about rational reasoning of these investors (whoever they are). Sandstorms would make living there simply unbearable. I've seen photos of sandstorms raving both in the cities and over the sea in those quarters, this is surely not what would you like to live with or in.

In short, absolutely not the right place to choose as your residence.

... We are in the largest housing bubble in Canadian history..  People are talking a slow down..  I hate to be the bearer of truth.. 2016 the BRICs will pop all of the bubbles the FED has created.. be ready. 

if they're smart, they're going to use the oil money to develop an another source of income before they deplete the reservoirs


money pays for your sons health, money provides food for your wife, money pays for stuff you do with your friends

money allows you to shape the world as you want it


one word

inflation


it's because there is no world war so the USA has no one to sell weapons to and hand out loans
the "american dream" is built on pain and suffering of other nations in 2 world wars
USA just had a nice distant position from where they could exploit others


that's not just USA, that's most countries

Problem is the minimum wage law, so jobs that can't afford to pay that much either will go to illegal or won't exist.

Other problem is people believing so hard that university education is fundamental to get job or have money, then making it be true.

They are not, and they are not used to working hard (like, say, the Chinese or Japanese) which could make up for it. If they were, they wouldn't build useless (and ugly) skyscrapers or meaningless islands, but rather build research centers and production facilities instead, that is anything which creates real wealth (cf. Israel or Iran to a degree).

true, they're wasting money

but islands attract tourists, skyscapers could too

I get your point, they're wasting their money foolishly

Income from tourists won't be enough even to maintain everything in order.

they can always export sand :D

I think you exaggerate maintenance costs or how much is needed.  Petronas Towers in Malaysia have been predicted to last 5000 years if humans disappeared and didn't perform maintenance.  There's people living in skyscrapers and towers in New York that go back a hundred years.  There's even apartment buildings in Europe that go back 400 years.

Dubai may run out of the oil and could have debt issues over that but the towers and infrastructure wouldn't disappear, neither would the financial exchange, the tourism or the all the shopping commerce.

Ironically that could lead to some interesting developments in Dubai.  Arabs are already a minority in that country, no?  I bet once the oil money goes it becomes a dominion of India.



 


 

No, the chart plainly says REAL, so adjusted for inflation.

The US is clearly becoming less industrialized and this risks a much lower relative standard of living compared to the rest of the world.

There are no shortages of reasons.

USA is becoming a service economy.

Much like Haiti is a service economy - where the 99.9% services the 0.1%.  Real wealth that results in a middle class is always going to come from manufacturing and other high revenue industries.  There's a reason why China's middle class has been exploding in size while the middle class in the US has been contracting.

Another reason college degrees are mostly a thing of the past or otherwise you don't have a chance in life after starting off your 20s w/ student loan debts while being relinquished to a service economy. Furthermore, these youths won't be purchasing homes for the most part leaving the retirees w/o the added bonus to their retirement savings that they'd been counting on.

Except the old people vote and everyone generation X and younger is: "lol I'm too kewl 2 vote".  So trust me, if old people were reduced to eating dog food they'll have a power session in the senate to save the retirees.

Yep the North is nicer if you don't mind the cold winter otherwise its nice ^_^

Well, these retirees I'm speaking of are the Baby Boomers whom were the spawns of the "Greatest Generation" whom I joke as the greediest generation since they shelled out all the kids, let govt grow to where it is today as they're the genius voters that started the trend and then sit back and sop up all the medicare and social security that legitimately was spent years if not decades ago. The GGs and what's left of their spouses are sitting back collecting, eating out, getting their hair done every week while most of their progeny are retiring nowadays w/ little to nothing in their savings and have cashed out their 401Ks years ago if not in a current depleted state. Some of Gen Y are doing fine as they made it good before shit happened in the mid to late aughts but many of the millennials are flatout screwed if they have no exposure to Bitcoin.

I am sorry but that is just not true. I listen to NPR everyday and they never said anything like that.... ;) ;) 8) 8) :D :D
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=714316.0

Not only that but we're also planning to implement universal basic income in the near future. The Liberals and Green Party  want to test it on the federal level in the near future. Money, money for everyone!

In respect to maintenance costs, I was referring first of all to those artificial islands. But nonetheless, stone buildings can indeed last for centuries (or rather their ruins), but this doesn't in the least mean that they will be suitable for living (at least as far as today's living standards are concerned). You have to keep sewerage, electricity, water supply, elevators operating and what not in respect to high-rises besides just keeping roof waterproof.

They have the power, the capital and the arrogance in the western world; they are giving some of it to their children and grand children but innovating without being in the correct circles become harder and harder in the western world

Hows that housing bubble going for you guys? Good for now, but we'll see.
The only thing that Canada (and the West) has going for them is parasitically taking the educated classes of 3rd world countries and using them to the benefit of the Great White North through taxation, basically leaving the 3rd world nation with the debt of educating the immigrants, and Canada (and the West) reaping the benefits through taxes. But I will agree your cities are beautiful and clean(don't get me started on New York:P), the drinking age is lower, and the Poutine is great!

So you are against the freedom of people to travel ?

Housing bubble, Dollar bubble, Dow Jones bubble; it is so obvious it is painful; inflation is kept a bit low by the capital destruction, lies of the official CPI and low velocity but it will not last for ever and they will all pop

They will say it is because of Russia, war, terrorist or something else but it will be because of the FED policies


Dubai doesn't have any substantial amount of Oil though

Doesn't help that their economy is in an unpayable debt...

You have the debt but also social funds invested in the debt (!), growing % of people that don't work, replacement of full time well paying jobs by service minimum wage part time jobs, money wasted on wars and politicians, heavy regulation which slow down businesses, trade deficit and the upcoming desmiss of the Dollar

The fact that a lot of people are leaving the workforce, and that people are accepting part time jobs and jobs that they are overqualified for is a big problem for the US economy. If it lasts long enough then these workers will permanently lose the potential to contribute to society as much as they can now. This will eventually lead to a lower standard of living for all americans. 

The outsourcing trend started 30 years ago, this is nothing new other than the fact that more and more are paying attention because they themselves are affected.

The auto industry can no longer compete with foreign competitors due to cost, quality, regulation and quality issues. To solve the problem long term, tax code and labor law need to be re-examined.

Pretty easy to know why Americans are getting "Poorer"

The minimum wage has not reflected the inflation rates since the 70s.

College education has skyrocketed and there are less grants available and the financial aid you can get, the interest rate is 7% on.

Illegal immigrants are being used for work that get under paid and Americans can't get that job because the minimum wage. 

Even without minimum wage, can you really afford to pay the bill working below minimum wage?

Getting poorer in the US is really nothing.

You guys really need to travel the world and see what "poverty" really mean.

"poverty" between developed countries.
The issue is poverty US among developed countries in the world,
not with all countries in the world. that's it

Well even in wealthy countries there are pockets of extreme poverty
Take an aboriginal reserve in Canada or Detroit in the USA with its water problems
Although the USA has more than its fair share of ghettos that one is a good example
http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/duggan-introduces-revamped-efforts-to-address-detroit-water-shut-offs/Content?oid=2231820

And at least in the poor countries if everyone is poor people are generally more happy
Strange equality.
http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/02-01-2013/123363-poor_happy-0/

Los rigos tambien lloran ("the rich also cry"). ;)

Crying inside a Mercedes Benz is better than staving on the street.

Of course not....That was sort of my point.  You can't afford to pay the bill working at minimum wage, let alone below it...

Poverty in a developed country cannot be compared with being impoverished in a poor one.  

 Homeless people living on the streets is largely an American phenomenon as elsewhere in the world there is either an extended family support network or a lack of zoning enforcement.  How many people in Africa or the Middle East live under a highway underpass?  Very few as they'll just build anything they can.

Israel, for instance, is always bulldozing illegal home in the Gaza Strip.  Even Spain, which some would classify as being second world, has a lot of illegal homes (some of them being mansions) owned by the otherwise destitute on paper.


The problem the United States is that its' a very energy intensive society (need a car to do anything due to the low population density) and a very regulated environment.  That makes it being homeless very difficult as if you don't have money for a car or even for a bus pass, how do you get to a place like Costco to get cheaper bulk food?  Ditto.

The US is kind of a bellwether for how the world economy is doing. We are somewhat insulated here but when we have issues the world is even worse off. We get mad when gas prices rise, in other places people die when gas prices rise.   

America is bound to get poorer especially considering the scale of it manufacturing and how archaic it is in comparison to direct competitors.

What was once a strong economy relying on export when it comes on to the several sectors of the industry is now solely relying on internal market, such as Automobile sector, Energy sector, Bulding and construction system ...ect these sectors cannot match their European counterparts in terms of quality or the Chinese in terms of price, heck even the Koreans fill the gap between Eu and Chinese products, The only way to keep a lead is to with great added value product, and US manufacturing is not giving that except maybe in the defense sector (but I think this is also due to the limitations imposed on other nations and they are losing the edge here examples of recent failures : F22 /F35, LCS....ect ect)

No the US has a strong lead when it comes hightech, especially to the internet sector, this is also thanks to the monopoly they created in 90s, once all the IPs and Patents expires things might change even, here so what to do ? move on to the next big thing and always relay on products/sectors/jobs with huge added value as opposed to simple stuff because they'll never match the price of the Chinese, Indians, and even North African countries want a piece of the cake

I can personally vouch that a lot of my friends are poor and that the city I live in has huge problems with very low wage jobs. Luckily most apartments are really cheap where I live, apartments for 1 bedroom only cost 500 bucks a month in a really good neighborhood, shady neighborhoods are like 300 a month so the people can still survive. Our minimum wage here is 7.25 USD/hour? I think that is what it is now. But the issue is that people don't go to college anymore and a lot of manufacturing jobs are going away because of government policies and the EPA.

Now why are people not going to colege? Is it too expensive for them? Government should start a funding program for such cases..

College education has little value compare to the cost. If an Ivy League graduate is getting paid on penny and dime after the students spending hundred of thousand dollars and time to go through the system, imagine what non-ivy league student is doing now.

Because College is insanely expensive and with the unemployment rates a lot of people are stuck working them after college, which if you work 40 hours a week is barely enough to pay for your student loans that you have to take out, let alone eat, play for a place to live...etc


The US government does fund programs, unfortunately only if you don't live in the US, they get to come here and live, go to school for free....Then we wonder why US is going broke...

When the US government or any government starts a "funding program" it takes 100 to give back 20-60 so it is less effiscient than not to start the program plus it increases the demand of the product so the price increases for everyone

Markets are more efficient when they are not manipulated

The defense industry and other high tech sectors have high dependency on other traditional manufacturing industry. When the quality of the foundation is gone, all the high level components will of course have high failure rate.

Off shoring and using cheap components from another country comes at high cost which can't be measured on a balance sheet.

I will call myself a freemarketeer, I praise and hold dear the free, voluntary, non-coercive exchange of goods. But Markets can be efficient when manipulated, but not how the Anglo-Saxon world manipulates it, the French Dirigisme is a great example of state owned companies being competitive. The French key to Dirigisme's success is that high level bureaucrats are only selected from the cream of the crop who enroll at the "Grande Ecoles". But I will agree markets can be cheaper to create the same effect.

America's economy and innovation is still strong. A combination of improved technology and other countries being able to manufacture products better as caused the auto and manufacturing sectors to shift out of the country and be replaced by service, information, and tech sector growth.

The "American's getting poorer" issue mostly comes from the increased access to credit, which enables someone who lives on a low middle class salary to live like someone with an upper middle class salary by buying things on debt that grows and grows.

When people shun credit except for education, homes, and starting business - all endeavors that result in improving/increasing income - their wealth will improve as well. The problem is getting everyone to reset to their proper level of consumption/living. It will result in people buying fewer things, which will hurt the economy a bit, for a little while. If we could endure that reset period we could be well on our way to more prosperous course for personal finance.

Btw, going into debt for a degree that DOESN'T result in income to pay for that debt plus some isn't going to help...another plague currently...

Poverty is poverty simple as that.  No shelter and little to no options is the name of the game not where your located.  US has some very poor areas that are extremely dangerous to live in.  Does that mean all of a sudden it is not so bad because they don't have to forage for food, or have lower chance of receiving medical attention? 

The government does subsidize going to college and this is why it is so expensive to go to college. Colleges have no incentive to keep costs in line because they receive federal subsidies and because people can borrow money with few limits from the government for college and the amounts that can be borrowed have nothing to do with the earnings potential of a particular degree.

income is proportional to education. yeah, i guess you are right. but there are exceptions, i know people who dont watch youtube for education :-)

Poor for America isn't really poor. It's just not getting what you want. At least they can get a bite of food every day and not have to worry for water.

the point of the OP is that the standard of living is falling across the US due to lower incomes.

In terms of dollar parity and purchasing power for the middle class
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2011/1019/A-long-steep-drop-for-Americans-standard-of-living

That said part of it depends on where you live
http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/country/united-states

American still have clean air, clean water and clean environment. That is something the rest of the world have little access to.

Plus we are the freeest most bestest country evar. Merica

Average Price of Ground Beef Hits All-Time High


More...http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/average-price-ground-beef-hits-all-time-high (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/average-price-ground-beef-hits-all-time-high)

This is a core part of the American cuisine and also a good price measure of what the average family is seeing in overall food pricing that isn't measured in the govt's inflation coordinates.

In a relative sense when comparing to other countries. Yes, we are still free despite all the spying and peeping tom allegations.

Price increases in food and similar products always make people poorer
So yep the cost of living is impacted by these type of choices of course that is when people go to alternative meats such as chicken or pork.
If those are high as well then fish so its all about how people shop around.

The ones that take the largest hit are the restaurants which then boost their prices and bring it back to the average consumer.

With Big Government Rich Americans get richer

Well as the price of beef increases, people will generally buy less of it and buy more of less expensive food. This is why chained CPI is a more accurate measure of inflation.

Fair enough in the relative sense but that doesn't mean that the government well more or less the NSA doesn't spend a heck of a lot of money to keep track of what its citizens are doing.
That and 9/11 did help throw privacy out the window more or less by giving police forces old military gear etc.

But clean air clean water and a clean environment are things that are worth cherishing.

I think the US are not really poor, during the American dollar exchange rate is still good in comparison to other currencies, a poor country if you want to say, there must be other countries for comparison, if we compare with the developing countries, US rich countries can still be said, So we must first define what poverty was like ... :'(

If the american people think they are getting poorer you must see the African countries for the reality check on how actually poverty looks like

The typical American are just too spoiled to think they deserve nice car and nice house without working for it.

Basic living standards are perhaps rising but authoritarian capitalism is perfecting itself more and more.  If you are are poor right now you have very limited power in society.

What countrie would that be? You are no freer than other western countries, I would argue that many western countries are actually freer.

The point is that the standards of living are decreasing in the US. Those poor countries in Africa are seeing their standard of living increase.

Because enough voters chose to have even more government interventionism.

Poorer is just to specific. Maybe life is much harder today for Americans. But poorer? Naah..

So when people don't have jobs and have kids that go to school dirty and hungry you call that lower middle class?  What will you call it when things get even worse?  You will only accept it is poverty when people don't have access to water?  Don't you see how illogical it is to say your not poor because you live in a rich country?  If my neighbor has a million dollars in the bank and I live in a cardboard box am I well off because I don't live in a poor third world country or am I just a few steps ahead of the worst on people on the planet?

The industrial revolution got most people out of poverty then people wanted a feeling of security and sociopaths wanted to control people so the wealther state grew and the rate of people going out of poverty declined then went to zero and now it is increasing again

How can you be poor when youre richer than most of the world? just be happy you live in a westren country with a minimum wage.

technically true, but the deficit is falling fast, is projected to fall much farther and GDP is growing pretty well relative to the rest of the rich world. mainstream economists agree that there is no short term debt problem and we likely wont have one until the end of the 2020

Whose fault is it that they don't have jobs? Whose fault is it that they have kids (if the do have kids then they are likely enrolled in many social programs)?

The standard of living for people in poverty in the US is much higher for even the wealthy in many other countries. A house that is considered to be a middle class home in the US is likely to be considered a mansion in many third world countries.

Inflation is stealing your wealth. Banks take away your money while you sleep simply by printing more.

That problem can be solved by using Bitcoin!  ;D

Inflation don't solve the problem, it creates more problems

If salaries don't go up and you have inflation people are getting poorer

I was talking about Bitcoin solving the problem.

Bitcoin has its own problem to solve

Bitcoin is divisible up to eight significant digits
This ensures you don't lose money getting short changed, and since there can only be 21 million Bitcoins, I doubt there will be inflation because of Bitcoin.

46,496,145: Food Stamp Recipients Can Fill Yankee Stadium 925 Times


And, that^ jump happened in just a month.

More...http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/46496145-food-stamp-recipients-can-fill-yankee-stadium-925-times (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/46496145-food-stamp-recipients-can-fill-yankee-stadium-925-times)

There are a lot of bitcoin hopefuls out here. Still, without you working, you will not succeed. Lazy people becomes poor, hardworking will succeed. If a hardworking person doesnt succeed then bad luck is embracing him.

If this were true, every gold miner in Africa would be a millionaire

Correct but gold miners in Africa are less poor than non gold miners and that it why they chose to mine for a few years then start a small business with the savings they accumulated

The number of poor people is going up in the states while the state is growing bigger; the % of people suffering from hunger is going down in the rest of the world

Are you serious?

Most of the people in africa that mine do so because they are forced to do so as what are essentially slaves in order to fund wars in africia. This is especially true with diamond mines (I am not sure about how many gold mines there are in africia).

^^ That guy knows what he's talking about

Wage slavery is still slavery, if you're born into debt and you die in debt, make just enough to live, you are a slave to work.

Exactly, the only thing that changed is the slavery method.
That what ure describing there is todays modern slavery, instead of food, you get just enough money to buy food, and thats it.
Im not saying it like that for everyone, but alot of ppl are accefted like that.

You have to wonder, is it really moral to capitalize on that which should be a man's basic right, the right to food, clothing, education, shelter, water, and healthcare?

Someone said that the dollar is printed as toilet paper

It's funny how it works, once upon a time, bankers would send men to come over and steal your shit, now they just sit there and print the shit out of your currency.

I believe in Bitcoin, I believe in the American dream, and I believe Bitcoin will save America.

How?

There is no solution to economic problems under the current framework. An actual solution would be considered radical and an abandonment of capitalism.

What can you suggest when you said radical solution for the abondonment of capitalism

Everyone is getting poorer.. Even politicians will not admit they are rich..

Yes, because politicians never lie.  I am quite sure since we literally pay for everything they do, they are getting by just fine and have tons of money to spare.

I mean, they play GOLF! The most boring piece of crap played by people who have too much free time on their hands!

It is seen badly to have become rich for a politician while if the politician became rich building a busness, creating value and jobs it should be seen as a good thing compared to spending all his money and never investing like Joe Biden.

Most politicians invest taxpayer dollars in Swiss banks

They have a lot of things paid and a nice salary + some use their political power and influence to do business

The inherent problem is that America is becoming increasingly privatized.  People no longer act for the best interest of society, but rather for the money to line their pockets.  The most shining example of this is the court system.  No longer is it an establishment that seeks justice, but one where people battle it out to get the largest sum of money. 

This is really not true. Most politicians need to disclose publicly as to where they have their money and their finances are generally able to be audited privately (not by private citizens).

Households in the US are getting poorer because of bad economic policies over the past 5.5 years under president Obama. It is as simple as that.

Actually, Americans are not getting poorer. They are simply remaining ignorant of their potential. The national debt is money owed Americans by the banks, not the other way around. And the banking system has created something over $200 trillion of debt around the world that is essentially owed by other countries to America. Start looking at things like the Uniform Commercial Code, and Accepted for Value (A$V, AFV).

:)

It is not capitalism that created the problems but the State, who is spending trillions on wars? Who is having stupid regulation where businesses need to be liable for everything against the employee so take that into account to pay less their employees, who set interests rates very low in 2000s then in 2010s, who has a trade deficit and a public deficit as well?
The State

They are finally raising the minimum wage, which will at least help the people who make that.

Unfortunately they are only raising the minimum wage.  I know in Seattle it will be going up to $15/hr.  That is absolutely insane they don't raise everything else.  I imagine there are some people out there making $14/hr and are doing fairly well at a respectable entry level job.  Now you can get the exact same pay at Mcdonalds?  What is wrong with this picture...

Minimum wage is unhealthy for the system. The reason outsourcing trend is still going on right now as cheaper labor can be find elsewhere even for highly specialized profession.

Government intervention and giving away government money to the less fortunate has increased the inequality because the most powerful get the most benefit of the government action and the poor stay poor

It is good and bad, unfortunately there is not another great option besides minimum wage.  This promotes a stabilized economy and work.  Unfortunately large corporations take advantage of this and hire outside of the states and have their employees telecommute.  Thank god everyone doesn't but there isn't much of a better solution than minimum wage

I think that people today feel "poorer" mainly because they don't see a positive future for themselves or the country.

People feel poorer because the government is getting bigger and suck out more money, inflation is decreasing the purchasing power of the middle class and the perspectives are not good; people get a feeling of what is coming by looking at their own finances and situation, they don't need the fixed government economic figures to have an idea of what is happening and it is not pretty in the US.

Does anyone expect 200 trillion will be repaid?

Well, hasn't always be like that anyway? And it's not only in America, every european country has the same response, apart from the north europe which is anyway a decade in the future. Keep in mind though technology is becoming cheaper and cheaper, while access to many other things is now completely free. People may have less money, but there wasn't ever a time in history where we had such a connection with everything and access to almost everything we need. The only worse thing you americans have is probably the health care, which in my country (Italy) is really cheap for many things, yet people keep complaining.

The health care in US is better than most places, but health insurance/cost is far worse.  So much more expensive mostly due to government intrusion through the FDA, insurance companies, and the US civil legal environment (lawsuits), and med schooling.  
But since the overgovernance has created a monster problem, the US does what it usually does.  Give the problem to the folks that caused it, the government.

So now the US Federal government has to pay people for surviving through a soon to be bankrupt social security program, and also pay for keeping people alive through "affordable care act".  So since both are in the executive branch, they can likely sort out both at once.  With enough government control of insurance, the government can decide when people die, thereby saving both costs.
And if they don't, they can just tax people more, so problem solved.

Yeah, well, that was what I intended but I didn't explain it. Health insurance is obscenely expensive in america, while in europe you have a completely different system. Of course in my country there aren't many advanced structures at all and they can't provide everything usa ones do (but we do have some excellent hospitals in some of the major cities and pretty advanced research and machines there), but the cost for average services is far more affordable, almost free for many things.

By free, you mean tax supported, yes?

The US system loses a lot of cost efficiency in the way the insurance has been perverted.  Doctors are required to do weird things by their insurers to avoid lawsuits.

Steps to make Americans get more wealthy

1. Raise minimum wage + all other salaries to deal with inflation
2. Stop letting illegal immigrants work for less than minimum wage
3. Lower the cost for college
4. Stop letting people from other countries come live here for free and go to college for free

one proof of this,the number of Americans on food stamps has grown from 17 million in the year 2000 to more than 47 million today.

Yes, almost everything is covered by the national sanitary system which is backed by taxes.
If you go to a civil hospital anyway you have to wait for months before a visit, if you are not suspected to be a serious case. But private clinics offer better services for just a fraction more of the cost.  


So basically the same amount the population has increased from then to now, lol. Pretty scary.

And, in a way Big Brother, American Idol, the superbowl, popcorn and the evening beer are also some kind of molasses to keep the poor stuck in poverty.

You brought up one of the problems of having a minimum wage but what about the fact that it will push prices higher and some unskilled workers will not be able to get a job because of minimum wage?

A lot of employers are not interested by paying an employee 15$/h to do some jobs but they would get employees for a lower pay. Each time you raise the minimum wage you destroy jobs. Low entry jobs that allow people that are out of the workforce to get their first experience, like you were able to do helping out in a restaurant or in a station service for 6-7$/h, now customers don't have this additional services and the people that would have got their first job doing that are unemployed and may stay unemployed most their life's instead of climbing the ladder and being useful

Minimum wage doesn't mean only McDonald's, it means any company that pays the minimum wage. To compete, the companies paying the current wage would raise their wages

How to end poverty in the USA?
End the "war on poverty".

All it has done is create more poverty and institutionalize it.

One thing is certain, over time people tend to do what they are paid to do.
If you pay people to be poor, you will get more poor people.

Yes! If you tax the work and pay those who don't work you have an incentive not to work; if you had the minimum wage that keep unskilled labor from getting a job and Big Government, you get the situation we are in

We really need to spread Bitcoin around the world. Why? Because we need to stop getting poorer and poorer.

Read this link over thoroughly, and then find someone to develop it. Wish I had the knowledge to do it. I would have long ago.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=825091.0

:)

Where did I imply that minimum wage meant Mcdonalds?  I said The problem is they won't raise everything.   The analogy I was making with Mcdonalds is say a person is making 14/hr just starting out.  Minimum wage gets bumped up to 15/hr.  Now the person who was doing okay at an entry level job is making less than minimum wage so they will be bumped up to 15/hr doing a hard entry level job.  Where as the person at Mcdonalds will be making the same amount.  What might even be worse, is say someone is making 17/hr right now, well minimum wage gets raised 6/hr and now Mcdonalds Employee who makes 15/hr is laughing because he is almost getting paid as much as 17/hr guy, who is working a lot harder than him..

You are correct and having a minimum wage destroys jobs which is the worst part of it all.

Minimum wage is only part of it, a minimum wage isn't going to fix everything.

These are all statist methods to further distort a market.

It is unlikely any of these would make "Americans" richer.
A more authoritarian country with a planned economy that is centrally controlled might try it though.

Labour productivity per capita has been climbing while the number of available labour positions has been shrinking.

This means that it's not that people are lazy, far from it, it's just that there's nothing for them to do any longer.

http://andrewmcafee.org/2012/12/the-great-decoupling-of-the-us-economy/

Because the entire US model is based on the idea that an average american job is both abundant and able to provide for a family this system is rotting at the base. It's not just the unemployed that struggle to survive, it's also all the small business, entrepreneurs, and even giant corporations that rely on every American family to be able to provide for itself.

The moment that stops happening, the whole thing cascades.

That's why it's utterly, utterly perverse to try and find ways to get people to do more work. You're only lowering the overall productivity of the economy. These jobs have been automatised and/or made more efficient through innovation. That's not coming back unless we revert back to pre-industrial conditions.

We need a system that keeps the economy going without human labour. That's what we've been working towards since we invented the steam engine. That's what we've been building up to for two centuries now and we're only fumbling at the finish line.

You want to abolish a big bureaucratic government fiddling around with welfare recipients? You want to stimulate entrepreneurship and reward people with ambition?

Then the unconditional basic income really is the only real solution to this crux.
http://www.reddit.com/r/basicincome/wiki/index

I'll take mine in gold bullion or bitcoin please.

If this solution is government printing more paper to simply expand their ledger, its fail.  Why bother with their money at all when they start doing this?

You don't need to inflate and you don't even need to increase taxes (though that would make things more effective and would boost the economy higher). Currently we're already spending this amount of money on our citizens through hidden costs that arise from a bloated bureaucracy and externalities arising from people not being able to directly sustain themselves.

You can fund an UBI on it's own efficiency.

1-To have less unemployment you need to lower the minimum wage so low skilled can have a job and start a career.
2-Illegal immigrants need to work and the State is already fighting the illegal work.
3-College costs is high because the government is subsidizing it with student debt laws and scholarships. Getting a 40,000$ Art Degree doesn't increase your skills much and should not be paid by the tax payer.
4-America was built on letting people come here but they didn't get anything for free and no minimum wage. Regulations were small and taxes were not a big enough burden to stop the economical growth, the USA needs to stop pouring good money after bad on poor that would be better off working for less than the minimum wage learning skills.

You will always get back less than 100 when 100 are taken out by taxes.

"taxes are for school and roads" when they are for bureaucratic spending, military and subsidies that increase prices

Exactly what efficiency do you imagine you are creating by spinning up this new grand global governmental program that tracks everyone so that it can "pay" them to be poor?

There exist X number of monetary units.  You either increase X by expanding the ledger, or you take X them from someone else (typically by force of law).

I don't think that the people that shill this idea even know what money is.

Very good points.
I would like just this.
I don't think that in order to have less unemployment you need to lower the minimum wage so low skilled can have a job and start a career.
In this case, this people will never have chance in society, to advance, learn new skils etc.
Government should provide free education for them and help them to find better jobs...
Government should also help economy to develop, so that many new jobs can be opened.

The government doesn't have free education to provide.  
Governments also do not have any ability to help economies to develop.  Government is the brake pedal on economic development to make sure it doesn't grow too much.  This is fundamental to the definition of government.  It can not add anything that it has not taken away from elsewhere, and there is a cost in this taking and giving operation so there is always less left over.

The communist manifest seems to agree with your plan though.  Your #10 is very important.  Free mandatory government education is certainly the best way to increase government propaganda.

1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3) Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4) Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5) Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6) Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8) Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9) Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.


People that say "government should...."  should find a way to do these things themselves rather than putting the requirement on everyone else.

1-No, its pretty much already proven that raising the minimum wage fixes the wealth issue.
2-Why do Illegal immigrants need to work?  They should probably be deported and get here legally.
3-College cost is high because the University can get away with it, they are abusing the system.  The problem is you NEED to get a college degree in order to compete with a lot of jobs, and the cost is way to insane.
4-Of course America was built by other people coming here.  My problem with this is they are letting all these people come here and go to College for 100% free, as a matter of fact they are getting paid to come here and take courses, in which case they either get the high paying jobs here, or they go back to their own country with their own degree from a college here.

This would be an amazing point as long as jobs were tied economic growth.

But they're not.

Our productivity is rising, but our median income is not.

People aren't lazy, they're just obsolete.

http://andrewmcafee.org/2012/12/the-great-decoupling-of-the-us-economy/

And this disparity is only going to continue.

The choice is to either let them rot and die, which means a failed state.

OR

Let an army of bureaucrats cater to all the problems that arise from this poverty

OR

Cut the middlemen, give these people the means to be a participating consumer again and let them sort their own lives out.

All the world getting poorer. But average american still can be considered "rich" in the rest of the world.

As long as the federal reserve keeps feeding it money yeah. When it's debt paying time what are going to happen to the great USA, and the rest of the western society?? Also have you looked at Chineese government lately? :)

This is very true. Even what would be considered modest living arrangement in the US would be often considered to be extraordinary in most of the world.

What's even more perplexing is that traditional "rich states" in the U.S. and the poor demographic vote for the Democrats while the "poor states" and the rich vote overwhelmingly Republican. The rich white Southerners are amongst the most conservative in the nation, casting their vote on anything that will protect their financial interests. Northerners generally vote split 50/50 between democrats and republicans.

WW3 will happen. And America with the western world will gain all the profit again. Same like with WW2.

And what about chineese goverment?

WW3 will ruin things way worse than WW2 did. Playing the WW card is too risky, and US will propably end up losing.

What I mean with the Chineese government is look at the way they have handled their economy (most western countries has industries there) - read new super power.

I guess his referring to the Asian countries/3rd world countries who doesn't have benefits/subsidise from their government..Look a Phil's for example inflation rose to it's 5past yes high...yet the gorvenment are deaf/blind what going on...just build build build..lol

Whether the Americans are getting poorer, still a typical American households' income, properties, and assets are way too stable and better than any other countries; also, they are still considered to be one of the riches countries due to the high average wealth of American households. Even though they are really getting poorer, they will still rise and bounce back even richer. They still have the capacity to grow their money more, unlike any other households in other parts of the world. I do not have great knowledge about the economy. However, I have an eye to ibserve and mind to think. And as far as I know, there will times that the economy will decrease and will increase. Yet, what makes the difference is how far those increase and decrease are.

I must say that this isn't very surprising. It seems like so many things are designed to make the rich get richer. If the rich are getting richer, it typically means the poor are getting poorer. There are so many times when it's actually cheaper to have more money. When you look at banking, that's definitely the case. The more money you have the less fees you pay. You can get an account with unlimited transactions and free checks, while the person with less money is paying for every transaction and their checks. Bigger accounts even get better exchange rates. If you can pay for things upfront you get huge discounts. Depending on what field you're in, you may very well get may other things for free, like travel paid for and accommodations.

The middle class is actually what every country needs to be developed. Yet, we see today that the middle class is suffering. This situation is not only in the USA. In Europe, the economic power of the middle class is decreasing as well. Nobody talks about it but it is a fact. The only difference with the US is that in Europe, they still can have affordable education. People can still send their children to college or universities with decent money. In America, it is nearly impossible. Same situation for healthcare and other vital sectors.

If the trade war is continuing,,,this problem will be increase day by day.

I definitely agree with you on a lot of points. I know that you don't actually need a lot of money to be rich by some definitions. I just find that expenses for the same things can be less when you have more money. If you buy things in bulk, for example, you can pay much less for them. That's the same for some things when you prepay them in advance. It's the same for a mortgage, for example. If you have more money to put down, then you will pay less interest. If you have less money, you pay more. I definitely agree that anybody can get out of poverty, but there are some factors that make it more difficult.

pah thats nothing compared what they didnt experienced yet!!

in the idiocracy of america http://time.com/4327424/idiocracy/

times will get much worse, i expect same wild west like before european colonisation,

i heard brawndo the thirst mutilator will become americas new coca cola.  ;D ;D