Bitcoin Forum

Just launching TGBEX (.com) and would appreciate any comments or suggestions?

Somehow managed to get on coindesk within days of launch! http://www.coindesk.com/optimism-isle-of-man-bitcoin-conference/

We are keeping it simple by engraving private and public keys onto reverse of coins, so coins are designed to last for the long term.

Private keys are covered with a 'secure' holographic sticker (records destroyed) and process is supervised and signed off by 2 professionals with suitable backgrounds.

Further details on sample coin for sale here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111468682433?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

We will offer extra security on future editions, but want to keep it as simple as possible for time being and hope coins will help increase adoption?

Any thoughts/ queries welcome!

I don't want to sound rude or anything but I'm not a fan of the coin design. It looks bland and boring, not really eye catching at all. Just some feedback, good luck.

they are unfunded right?

I agree with Cryptocables the design need some work ... although I was wondering what material it is made of....

http://i59.tinypic.com/33pexl2.gif

Welcome to bitcoin forum :)

Designed to be 'generic', fit brand and to be as hard as possible to copy (though can never be impossible)- world map to fit bitcoin's global nature

Big fan of casascius and titan etc, but TGBEX coins are designed to last longer and have not been made cheaply (roped rims, special tooling for level of detail required etc, plus individually numbered)

Coins are made of brass alloys with various finishes, although the 10 & 20 BTC coins are solid silver (hallmarked by the Birmingham assay office)

Feedback has been good so far, but will have to look at design for future if noone here likes it!

Coins are funded, which is why we can only currently sell them in UK (investigating other possible countries to sell to, but takes a lot of legal and tax advice which we might need funding for)

Are you selling these coins? How much are they going for?

yes, prices on website, but only available for sale in UK at the moment (speaking to a few potential resellers elsewhere)

Can't you just x-ray the coin to see the code since you etched it into the metal?  I'm pretty sure you can see the private key under the hologram with cheap imaging equipment like what they use at pawn shops to see if something is fake.  I would not trust this.

You have a good point (and we have discussed trying to X-ray coins using simple imaging and MRI machines to test this), however owning bitcoins is about taking responsibility - as long as an owner keeps it as safe as they would a gold bar, or a bank PIN number, then private key should remain valid (we would certainly not describe the holographic sticker as 'tamperproof')

We have obviously looked at the way casascius coins were 'hacked' by removing/ replacing stickers, though it would require leaving someone unattended for a while with access to coin, which we advise owners not to do

We are not selling unloaded coins, nor will we provide replacement holographic stickers, so we will try and minimise connected risks

Am pretty sure the holographic stickers are of sufficient quality/ thickness that the private keys cannot be read by cheap imaging equipment, but will try and test this and let you know results….

Disclaimer to say 'don't let anyone carrying an x-ray machine examine your coin', seems a little unnecessary though?

Unless the hologram is made out of heavy elements, its nothing to an x-ray.  So a med student could do it if the weaker stuff can't.  Because you manipulated the surface of the metal, it will show up using x-ray, there is no way around that with just a sticker in the way.

First off, congrats on your company and your new coins.  Some of my thoughts are:

1.  While I agree you wouldnt let your coin out of your sight, the fact that it *MAY* be compromised through imaging equipment could damage the resale market.  I may not be eager to buy someone else's coin in fear they know the key.  Especially a 20 BTC.  That would then make me less apt to purchase these in the first place.

2.  I think the design is ok, but have sort of a video game arcade token look when antiqued.  Not a huge fan of antiquing, but the solid, silver plated, and gold plated polished coins look better to me.

3.  You may wish to consider fewer denominations, or if you are going to make so many, differentiate them more with something else.  Different designs ideally.  The 10 and 20 coins are basically the same coin.  I understand that you save on the tooling for having one design, but it reduces my desire to collect several.

4.  I think your markup is a little high, at least translated to USD:
(2 BTC) 749GBP =  $1225 = $425 premium over 2 BTC
(20 BTC) 5799GBP = $9489 = $1489 premium over 20 BTC

5.  I would think you're going to have a hard time selling 499 of the 20 BTC $10k coins, even at this current low BTC rate.  You may also want smaller mintages overall.  Many sellers lately have been doing mintages of 100-200...maybe 500 on the higher end.

6. I think the window on the hologram is much too large, in order to show the entire public address, and takes away from the hologram aesthetics.

7. I see 7 denominations mentioned and 6 coins show on your website.

8. In order to make your product be available worldwide, consider selling them unfunded or enforce buyer funded.  Otherwise, you may have a hard time selling some of the higher denominations to only UK.  Unless resellers can sell them instead internationally.


For what its worth, I would buy one of your coins, but just giving advice, if its of any value.  Thanks

Many thanks for comments- agree on most of what you say

1)- coins are designed for long term storage and we do not advise any second hand sales
2)- have worked closely with the manufacturer to make sure antiqued finish is decent (quite a few were sent back to be redone)- we have used special tooling to get the detail on the coins and the antiqued finish does hide some of this, but promise they look ok in real life (do not come out so well in photos), many people seem to think the 5btc coin looks best...
3)- tooling is different for each coin, so was not a cost saving measure (unfortunately!) - idea is to build a brand, but we do have a number of different designs for other products and also planning to produce bespoke coins in the near future...
4)- we would like to reduce margins as we progress and pricings will be on the high side until we sort out live price feeds (had some issues with website picking up price feeds, which are still being resolved)- higher value coins obviously are hallmarked silver and come in handmade boxes (plus we are exposed to hedging risks and insurance costs)- to try and justify higher margins!
5)- had a lot of interest in coins and a background designing solutions for wealthy people, so am confident we can sell to a wider audience (eg medical, finance and property professionals all seem interested), hopefully anyway...
6)- completely agree- we are working on improving this and have some new equipment coming that will hopefully get rid of the window issues (cutter we have is too small, so makes them somewhat untidy and a very manual process with cutters constantly get clogged up/ broken as well given thickness, stickiness and metallic element of holographic stickers
7)- 50btc coins are not for sale until we get some technical details sorted (they cannot be sold without KYC/ AML, but waiting for registrations in UK first as well), but good spot!
8)- had a lot of enquiries along these lines, but risks to product/ brand if we do this are too big (or so we think at the moment)

Would love to launch in Asia and US next year, but would have to sell a lot of coins first..... (to pay for all the legal, tax opinions and licences etc)

Feedback much appreciated

Always interesting to see new coins hit the market and congratulations for all the effort involved. However, you can pick up a Casascius 0.5 bitcoin which has a more prestige for only £180 (0.70btc) so what makes your coin worth £50 more?

Agree, dont catch my eye

Not sure who is loading the casascius coins at the moment and our coins have the keys engraved and are individually numbered, plus idea of physical bitcoins needs to be taken seriously surely?

Physical bitcoins were always intended to increase adoption (from bitbill paper wallet to casascius and beyond), but am not sure they should only be seen as a 'novelty items'

Taken 2 years to develop packaging, brand, security, procedures etc (and working with local government regulators, local lawyers, other professionals etc to do it properly).

Given the amounts of bitcoin involved we need to be able to collect specific ID documentation requirements at different limits depending on local laws in countries (that we are still figuring out)

Manufacture of coins/ engraving of keys is taken very seriously and so is the security and processes around offline wallet generation/ data retention/ destruction of private keys etc involved

We would love to be able to improve all of the above given funds, but trying to get it off the ground first....

Design was subject to debate for many months, had to be generic and 'global' fitted nature of bitcoin- background is full of bitcoin symbols (don't go there with the 'official' one....), which are visible on coins (which legally might need to be 'tokens' or 'medallions' in some countries..)

Any coin can be copied/ faked, but have to try and make it hard for forgers is the theory (we are not advising second hand ownership of coins), plus each coin and parts of packaging are 'unique'

Before anyone asks, we are obviously working on API to accept bitcoin as payment (at a discount of course) and other payment options...

Honestly, not having a resale market sort of kills the interest in my view.

If it is only for long term storage anyone can create paper wallets that are encrypted and store them in safes in multiple locations. Cost would be much cheaper if that is the only goal.

Or just engrave a tungsten bar with the key and store it in a safe.

But to each their own.

We should be able to verify ownership of a particular coin upon request from owner, but cannot support a resale market, as if the key/ coins were compromised, we might be held responsible.

We can only guarantee the coins at the point of sale (and that records of private keys have been destroyed)

Anyone can get run over by a bus, or have a heart attack and do they all have someone they trust to remember all the multiple locations, passwords and safe access? (though agree storage has to be done in a sensible way for any large amounts of bitcoin)

Engraving a tungsten bar might be inefficient for some, but storage of any form of private keys in a safe is a good idea for extra security (if managed).

OREO! Yum!  ;D

Ok, that's all very well but you didn't answer the question, what makes your coin worth so much more than the well established players in the market? Casascius coin production ceased over a year ago because the US government contacted the manufacturer and asked them to stop. Casascius coins are perfectly secure, although all coins have their weaknesses. Your coin can apparently be x-rayed to reveal the engraving.

Nobody called physical bitcoins novelty items except you and they are a big investment for most people. I'll bet the majority of customers don't care how long it took you to get to market, they either like the product or not. When you start talking about needing identification and government regulations you'll put off buyers. These are items that are going to be traded and collected, so neglect the resale market at your peril. Suggest you offer discounts to at least the first few buyers, should you find any.

Design is ok, will say the metal color looks quite murky. Take photos that don't leave a shadow on the coin.

Appreciate the advice

As you say there are no 'established' players in the market anymore, but more importantly there has never been a physical bitcoin manufacturer with proper controls and procedures to safeguard keys

This is why we believe our coins are worth more- they have been checked, plus they are high quality, individually numbered, come with a signed certificate, corresponding QR code to allow owner to verify balance, booklet explaining the coin and how to redeem and a presentation box (the coins still retail for less than many other physical bitcoins available)- we also have to cover staff costs and engraving machinery costs

We are not doing this out of a bedroom or garage...(and we have not used cheapest suppliers, to ensure quality)

Anyone offering coins available for second hand trade could/ will be shut down (against laws in most countries), but I wouldn't buy a loaded second hand physical bitcoin from anyone (if our coins are individually numbered, then surely they are the most verifiable/ suited to second hand trade, but again we cannot condone or promote this)

Our coins are certainly the hardest physical bitcoins to copy (and as each uniquely numbered, more noticeable) and we are not reliant on 'paper and glue' solutions which surely might make private keys unreadable 10-20 years from now?

We believe our coins are more secure than any others out there for a number of reasons (mainly because we spent a long time thinking about problems and what could be done to rectify them).

Had a few orders already and thanks to those that have PM'd me, which I will sort out (our plan is to launch in UK over coming months, then expand to other countries if it all goes well).

Just collected a couple of silver 1's from the local sorting office. All in all, nice coins. Happy to support a UK based seller.

As halo said above, the holo window is a bit on the large side. Even with the full key visible, it didnt need to be as big as it is.

Also holo itself may be slightly too big for the coin, as it partially covers some of the pressed design (or not quite big enough if it was meant to cover it all). Could just be a placement / centering thing. (or perhaps the standard 'series 1 error' ...  ;D)

Look forward to seeing how the range develops. Good luck.

Glad you like them and need all the support in UK we can get

Issue with getting specially designed metallic holograms is the cutting is a nightmare- like the idea of a 1st edition glitch though!

Getting tidier as we practice and have something ordered that will hopefully solve issue.

https://image-store.slidesharecdn.com/bc44ea8f-2b50-4403-af6d-5f8d92817911-original.png

May be interested in buying a few but price seems quite high.
Also, may be able to help with a few ways of spicing up the market for these precious coins :)
Drop me a PM :)

need to work on a lot of things (including finger in photo!), but thanks again for support in UK and beyond

Will be interested if you decide to bring out lower denomination coins, ideally made of silver

Silver and gold raise tax issues in most countries, so unlikely, though we are working on a range of lwoer denomination coins

Just reduced prices for any UK buyers, in line with BTC price (had some issues with price feeds that should hopefully be sorted out this week)

Still have 2BTC coins numbered under 010 and 5 and 10BTC coins numbered under 006

0.5BTC coins and 1BTC coins approaching 020

Better picture of 1BTC coin boxed:

Actual coin on ebay now (earliest 1BTC coin ever available for public sale):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111479191177?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFg5MDA=/z/8m4AAOSwdsFUMU84/$_57.JPG

These do look nice coins, have you considered selling them unfunded?

Yes and no...

Company mission is to help adoption and introduce a new audience to bitcoin, so had no intentions to sell unfunded (guess target market would not be able to do this)

Quickly discovered many of bitcoin community would like to fund coins themselves (or want 2-factor/ multi-factor authentication, or many do not want anyone having access to their private key(s) at any time, all of which are fair enough points, but each of these also have their disadvantages)

The issue is what if someone buys unfunded and resells as funded? (would damage our image and leave us open to legal action?)

Guess we could make a non-denomination coin (but still with keys engraved/ hologram in place) that could be suitable for this

If it happens will send you the 001, but not planned yet I'm afraid  (not convinced sufficient demand/ lower margins etc- would be cheaper to find an old coin and get one side smoothed/ engraved?)

Have a look at CrypArt.com for unfunded physical bitcoins......(launching soon)

Surely people would be able to check the public address on the back of the coin to figure out if it has funds on it? It would be a bit silly to buy a coin without photos of the front and back. You could differentiate the hologram writing colour like the lealana coin does. Black for manufacturer funded, green for buyer funded. I don't think you would be responsible if someone sold a coin as funded, when they knew it was not.

You still haven't addressed the problem of x-ray being able to see the keys. You see the engraved keys as a "secure feature", but I see it as a problematic liability. You can't deny the fact that certain instruments will be able to read right though the hologram without damaging it.

I also wanted to add that the 20btc and 50btc coins are just ridiculous. Casascius bearer bars were high denomination, but only a few were made. It's like a pyramid. The higher the denomination, the harder it will be to sell, so fewer should be made. Casascius coins came out in 1btc each, when btc price was below $10. It was no problem for the average bitcoiner to buy 1btc, or even the 25btc coins back then. But now with the btc value and price premium you're on top of the face value, how many people do you think will drop thousands worth on these? There will probably be some buyers, but your audience will be greatly limited.

Relate these to selling silver bullion. You'll be able to sell smaller 1oz bars much faster, and you'll have more people able to buy these than if you were try to sell a 10kg bar.

Yes they could (and we could still provide corresponding QR code in box to make this easier), but still brings risks....

Like the Lealana coins (built up a small collection of physical BTC/LTC as part of research), but think TGBEX is targeting a different market

Physical coins have been a novelty, enthusiasts like them as it helps explain the concept to people, but for a more serious investor, plastic/ cheap coins with keys on paper and glue do not seem sensible?

By engraving keys onto quality bronze alloy/ silver metals TGBEX coins will last longer and by having proper procedures, controls and compliance, we believe are a more 'investable' proposition (Antana coins are also great, but think I would rather rely on CADD systems to engrave keys, rather than any human?)

Plus think it might confuse non-enthusiasts if we were selling funded and unfunded? (friend has had an unfunded sample coin for a few months and has persuaded people/ could have sold it  4 or 5 times as loaded (admittedly always late on in pubs....))

Easy to get carried away with bitcoin and forget at least 90% (99%?) of people would not know how to check if loaded (and if it says 5BTC on it then some poeple might think that is good enough?

We have had a bit of trouble trying to test this, but am not sure it is a 'real' concern for most people- personally I do not know anyone with a x-ray machine and would be suspicious of anyone carrying one who wished to view/ scan coin....

Where it could possibly be a problem is at Airport baggage screening, but am not sure if most of these machines would have the resolution necessary to read keys...(again we do need to check this)

It is another argument against second hand sales- there are ways to compromise every physical bitcoin if you have access to it for long enough (weren't casascius coins 'hacked' with some glue and tweezers?)

You can x-ray paintings (as they do sometimes to see if picture painted underneath)- so this is a problem for all physical coins, not just engraved coins?

First second hand sale of coin:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201193542253?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true

Some decent pictures of coin there (hope to get proper pictures up on website soon)

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/YY0AAOSwR0JUO-b1/$_57.JPG

relisted on ebay for any non-UK buyers interested…

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Physical-Bitcoin-0-5-BTC-loaded-very-high-quality-/201211617831?pt=UK_Coins_OtherBritish_RL&hash=item2ed925a227

How long does shipment take

Delivery normally within a week, but please allow for up to 10 days.

Been a while since we updated this thread, but here are some more pictures which will hopefully give an idea of the level of detail achieved in the TGBEX coins

https://image-store.slidesharecdn.com/9918302f-921d-451c-9bc3-2c91fce365b7-original.jpeg

https://image-store.slidesharecdn.com/5dca0577-a715-469c-9b93-21b1091dbb92-original.jpeg


All coins are pre-stocked and pre-loaded, so there should be no fears about whether we can deliver, nor about the price rising and us failing to meet orders (there seem to be a number of other physical bitcoin manufacturers out there that make promises, but don't deliver)

We believe we are the only manufacturer out there that can sell physical bitcoins legally (have obtained legal, tax and banking due to operating model) and we do not require any ID for orders under $15,000 (though reserve the right to request documents if we believe any orders are 'suspicious')

We are now selling across the EU and hope to expand sales outside in the near future.

We also finally accept bitcoin payments!

Please do keep the feedback coming and we will be making some changes based on feedback here and elsewhere in the near future

Finally don't forget about the treasure hunt and your chance to win a 1btc coin (no. 019):
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=967073.0

TGBEX today announced we have had to temporarily withdraw 5-20BTC coins from sale (these will only be available in future to 'users' who register and provide ID documentation first).

This is in response to local legislation in the Isle of Man now requiring us to verify any customers wishing to purchase over €1,000 of physical bitcoins.

We obviously have to comply with any applicable regulations, which we are subject to.

Given this and that demand for the coins is likely to be impacted by the extra requirements, we have also reduced edition size to 499 for each of the coins still available on 'general sale' (the 0.5BTC, 1BTC & 2BTC coins) - 5BTC coins have been reduced to a total production size of 199 coins and the solid silver 10BTC/ 20BTC have been reduced in size to 99 of each.

We are investigating the implications of further regulations.

At all times we maintain a small stock of 'loaded' coins, with no other records of private keys maintained, so owners can be sure they control their bitcoin: they cannot be hacked, stolen by the DEA or 'lost' on a broken hard drive and control of bitcoins is not dependent on any 3rd party, including us.

Are you expecting to open up orders to outside of Europe?  I live in the US.

Not at this time.

Selling to US is likely to require licensing in each state, so costs are prohibitive.

If you need help, shout Halo

a little necromancy is in order so people are aware these lovely coins are in fact still available.

We stock them over at www.physibit.com with the 0.5, 1 & 2BTC currently being held and 10, 20 & 50BTC coins on their way to us shortly.

If you're looking for multiple coins.. give me a DM and we can discuss pricing.

Viz