TGBEX, Limited Edition Physical Bitcoins

[TGBEX]

Just launching TGBEX (.com) and would appreciate any comments or suggestions?

Somehow managed to get on coindesk within days of launch! http://www.coindesk.com/optimism-isle-of-man-bitcoin-conference/

We are keeping it simple by engraving private and public keys onto reverse of coins, so coins are designed to last for the long term.

Private keys are covered with a 'secure' holographic sticker (records destroyed) and process is supervised and signed off by 2 professionals with suitable backgrounds.

Further details on sample coin for sale here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111468682433?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

We will offer extra security on future editions, but want to keep it as simple as possible for time being and hope coins will help increase adoption?

Any thoughts/ queries welcome!

[Cryptocables]

I don't want to sound rude or anything but I'm not a fan of the coin design. It looks bland and boring, not really eye catching at all. Just some feedback, good luck.

[Mariowot]

they are unfunded right?

[hustler100]

I agree with Cryptocables the design need some work ... although I was wondering what material it is made of....

[wheresmycoin]

Welcome to bitcoin forum

[TGBEX]

I don't want to sound rude or anything but I'm not a fan of the coin design. It looks bland and boring, not really eye catching at all. Just some feedback, good luck.

Designed to be 'generic', fit brand and to be as hard as possible to copy (though can never be impossible)- world map to fit bitcoin's global nature

Big fan of casascius and titan etc, but TGBEX coins are designed to last longer and have not been made cheaply (roped rims, special tooling for level of detail required etc, plus individually numbered)

Coins are made of brass alloys with various finishes, although the 10 & 20 BTC coins are solid silver (hallmarked by the Birmingham assay office)

Feedback has been good so far, but will have to look at design for future if noone here likes it!

Coins are funded, which is why we can only currently sell them in UK (investigating other possible countries to sell to, but takes a lot of legal and tax advice which we might need funding for)

[adam001]

Are you selling these coins? How much are they going for?

[TGBEX]

Are you selling these coins? How much are they going for?

yes, prices on website, but only available for sale in UK at the moment (speaking to a few potential resellers elsewhere)

[Hellot]

Can't you just x-ray the coin to see the code since you etched it into the metal?  I'm pretty sure you can see the private key under the hologram with cheap imaging equipment like what they use at pawn shops to see if something is fake.  I would not trust this.

[TGBEX]

Can't you just x-ray the coin to see the code since you etched it into the metal?  I'm pretty sure you can see the private key under the hologram with cheap imaging equipment like what they use at pawn shops to see if something is fake.  I would not trust this.

You have a good point (and we have discussed trying to X-ray coins using simple imaging and MRI machines to test this), however owning bitcoins is about taking responsibility - as long as an owner keeps it as safe as they would a gold bar, or a bank PIN number, then private key should remain valid (we would certainly not describe the holographic sticker as 'tamperproof')

We have obviously looked at the way casascius coins were 'hacked' by removing/ replacing stickers, though it would require leaving someone unattended for a while with access to coin, which we advise owners not to do

We are not selling unloaded coins, nor will we provide replacement holographic stickers, so we will try and minimise connected risks

Am pretty sure the holographic stickers are of sufficient quality/ thickness that the private keys cannot be read by cheap imaging equipment, but will try and test this and let you know results….

Disclaimer to say 'don't let anyone carrying an x-ray machine examine your coin', seems a little unnecessary though?

[Hellot]

Unless the hologram is made out of heavy elements, its nothing to an x-ray.  So a med student could do it if the weaker stuff can't.  Because you manipulated the surface of the metal, it will show up using x-ray, there is no way around that with just a sticker in the way.

[bithalo]

First off, congrats on your company and your new coins.  Some of my thoughts are:

1.  While I agree you wouldnt let your coin out of your sight, the fact that it *MAY* be compromised through imaging equipment could damage the resale market.  I may not be eager to buy someone else's coin in fear they know the key.  Especially a 20 BTC.  That would then make me less apt to purchase these in the first place.

2.  I think the design is ok, but have sort of a video game arcade token look when antiqued.  Not a huge fan of antiquing, but the solid, silver plated, and gold plated polished coins look better to me.

3.  You may wish to consider fewer denominations, or if you are going to make so many, differentiate them more with something else.  Different designs ideally.  The 10 and 20 coins are basically the same coin.  I understand that you save on the tooling for having one design, but it reduces my desire to collect several.

4.  I think your markup is a little high, at least translated to USD:
(2 BTC) 749GBP =  $1225 = $425 premium over 2 BTC
(20 BTC) 5799GBP = $9489 = $1489 premium over 20 BTC

5.  I would think you're going to have a hard time selling 499 of the 20 BTC $10k coins, even at this current low BTC rate.  You may also want smaller mintages overall.  Many sellers lately have been doing mintages of 100-200...maybe 500 on the higher end.

6. I think the window on the hologram is much too large, in order to show the entire public address, and takes away from the hologram aesthetics.

7. I see 7 denominations mentioned and 6 coins show on your website.

8. In order to make your product be available worldwide, consider selling them unfunded or enforce buyer funded.  Otherwise, you may have a hard time selling some of the higher denominations to only UK.  Unless resellers can sell them instead internationally.


For what its worth, I would buy one of your coins, but just giving advice, if its of any value.  Thanks

[TGBEX]

First off, congrats on your company and your new coins.  Some of my thoughts are:

1.  While I agree you wouldnt let your coin out of your sight, the fact that it *MAY* be compromised through imaging equipment could damage the resale market.  I may not be eager to buy someone else's coin in fear they know the key.  Especially a 20 BTC.  That would then make me less apt to purchase these in the first place.

2.  I think the design is ok, but have sort of a video game arcade token look when antiqued.  Not a huge fan of antiquing, but the solid, silver plated, and gold plated polished coins look better to me.

3.  You may wish to consider fewer denominations, or if you are going to make so many, differentiate them more with something else.  Different designs ideally.  The 10 and 20 coins are basically the same coin.  I understand that you save on the tooling for having one design, but it reduces my desire to collect several.

4.  I think your markup is a little high, at least translated to USD:
(2 BTC) 749GBP =  $1225 = $425 premium over 2 BTC
(20 BTC) 5799GBP = $9489 = $1489 premium over 20 BTC

5.  I would think you're going to have a hard time selling 499 of the 20 BTC $10k coins, even at this current low BTC rate.  You may also want smaller mintages overall.  Many sellers lately have been doing mintages of 100-200...maybe 500 on the higher end.

6. I think the window on the hologram is much too large, in order to show the entire public address, and takes away from the hologram aesthetics.

7. I see 7 denominations mentioned and 6 coins show on your website.

8. In order to make your product be available worldwide, consider selling them unfunded or enforce buyer funded.  Otherwise, you may have a hard time selling some of the higher denominations to only UK.  Unless resellers can sell them instead internationally.


For what its worth, I would buy one of your coins, but just giving advice, if its of any value.  Thanks

Many thanks for comments- agree on most of what you say

1)- coins are designed for long term storage and we do not advise any second hand sales
2)- have worked closely with the manufacturer to make sure antiqued finish is decent (quite a few were sent back to be redone)- we have used special tooling to get the detail on the coins and the antiqued finish does hide some of this, but promise they look ok in real life (do not come out so well in photos), many people seem to think the 5btc coin looks best...
3)- tooling is different for each coin, so was not a cost saving measure (unfortunately!) - idea is to build a brand, but we do have a number of different designs for other products and also planning to produce bespoke coins in the near future...
4)- we would like to reduce margins as we progress and pricings will be on the high side until we sort out live price feeds (had some issues with website picking up price feeds, which are still being resolved)- higher value coins obviously are hallmarked silver and come in handmade boxes (plus we are exposed to hedging risks and insurance costs)- to try and justify higher margins!
5)- had a lot of interest in coins and a background designing solutions for wealthy people, so am confident we can sell to a wider audience (eg medical, finance and property professionals all seem interested), hopefully anyway...
6)- completely agree- we are working on improving this and have some new equipment coming that will hopefully get rid of the window issues (cutter we have is too small, so makes them somewhat untidy and a very manual process with cutters constantly get clogged up/ broken as well given thickness, stickiness and metallic element of holographic stickers
7)- 50btc coins are not for sale until we get some technical details sorted (they cannot be sold without KYC/ AML, but waiting for registrations in UK first as well), but good spot!
- had a lot of enquiries along these lines, but risks to product/ brand if we do this are too big (or so we think at the moment)

Would love to launch in Asia and US next year, but would have to sell a lot of coins first..... (to pay for all the legal, tax opinions and licences etc)

Feedback much appreciated

[Fortify]

Always interesting to see new coins hit the market and congratulations for all the effort involved. However, you can pick up a Casascius 0.5 bitcoin which has a more prestige for only £180 (0.70btc) so what makes your coin worth £50 more?

[Coopster8888]

I don't want to sound rude or anything but I'm not a fan of the coin design. It looks bland and boring, not really eye catching at all. Just some feedback, good luck.

Agree, dont catch my eye

[TGBEX]

Always interesting to see new coins hit the market and congratulations for all the effort involved. However, you can pick up a Casascius 0.5 bitcoin which has a more prestige for only £180 (0.70btc) so what makes your coin worth £50 more?

Not sure who is loading the casascius coins at the moment and our coins have the keys engraved and are individually numbered, plus idea of physical bitcoins needs to be taken seriously surely?

Physical bitcoins were always intended to increase adoption (from bitbill paper wallet to casascius and beyond), but am not sure they should only be seen as a 'novelty items'

Taken 2 years to develop packaging, brand, security, procedures etc (and working with local government regulators, local lawyers, other professionals etc to do it properly).

Given the amounts of bitcoin involved we need to be able to collect specific ID documentation requirements at different limits depending on local laws in countries (that we are still figuring out)

Manufacture of coins/ engraving of keys is taken very seriously and so is the security and processes around offline wallet generation/ data retention/ destruction of private keys etc involved

We would love to be able to improve all of the above given funds, but trying to get it off the ground first....

Design was subject to debate for many months, had to be generic and 'global' fitted nature of bitcoin- background is full of bitcoin symbols (don't go there with the 'official' one....), which are visible on coins (which legally might need to be 'tokens' or 'medallions' in some countries..)

Any coin can be copied/ faked, but have to try and make it hard for forgers is the theory (we are not advising second hand ownership of coins), plus each coin and parts of packaging are 'unique'

Before anyone asks, we are obviously working on API to accept bitcoin as payment (at a discount of course) and other payment options...

[smoothie]

Honestly, not having a resale market sort of kills the interest in my view.

If it is only for long term storage anyone can create paper wallets that are encrypted and store them in safes in multiple locations. Cost would be much cheaper if that is the only goal.

Or just engrave a tungsten bar with the key and store it in a safe.

But to each their own.

[TGBEX]

Honestly, not having a resale market sort of kills the interest in my view.

If it is only for long term storage anyone can create paper wallets that are encrypted and store them in safes in multiple locations. Cost would be much cheaper if that is the only goal.

Or just engrave a tungsten bar with the key and store it in a safe.

But to each their own.

We should be able to verify ownership of a particular coin upon request from owner, but cannot support a resale market, as if the key/ coins were compromised, we might be held responsible.

We can only guarantee the coins at the point of sale (and that records of private keys have been destroyed)

Anyone can get run over by a bus, or have a heart attack and do they all have someone they trust to remember all the multiple locations, passwords and safe access? (though agree storage has to be done in a sensible way for any large amounts of bitcoin)

Engraving a tungsten bar might be inefficient for some, but storage of any form of private keys in a safe is a good idea for extra security (if managed).

[akujin]

OREO! Yum! 

[Fortify]

Not sure who is loading the casascius coins at the moment and our coins have the keys engraved and are individually numbered, plus idea of physical bitcoins needs to be taken seriously surely?

Physical bitcoins were always intended to increase adoption (from bitbill paper wallet to casascius and beyond), but am not sure they should only be seen as a 'novelty items'

Taken 2 years to develop packaging, brand, security, procedures etc (and working with local government regulators, local lawyers, other professionals etc to do it properly).

Given the amounts of bitcoin involved we need to be able to collect specific ID documentation requirements at different limits depending on local laws in countries (that we are still figuring out)

Manufacture of coins/ engraving of keys is taken very seriously and so is the security and processes around offline wallet generation/ data retention/ destruction of private keys etc involved

We would love to be able to improve all of the above given funds, but trying to get it off the ground first....

Design was subject to debate for many months, had to be generic and 'global' fitted nature of bitcoin- background is full of bitcoin symbols (don't go there with the 'official' one....), which are visible on coins (which legally might need to be 'tokens' or 'medallions' in some countries..)

Any coin can be copied/ faked, but have to try and make it hard for forgers is the theory (we are not advising second hand ownership of coins), plus each coin and parts of packaging are 'unique'

Before anyone asks, we are obviously working on API to accept bitcoin as payment (at a discount of course) and other payment options...

Ok, that's all very well but you didn't answer the question, what makes your coin worth so much more than the well established players in the market? Casascius coin production ceased over a year ago because the US government contacted the manufacturer and asked them to stop. Casascius coins are perfectly secure, although all coins have their weaknesses. Your coin can apparently be x-rayed to reveal the engraving.

Nobody called physical bitcoins novelty items except you and they are a big investment for most people. I'll bet the majority of customers don't care how long it took you to get to market, they either like the product or not. When you start talking about needing identification and government regulations you'll put off buyers. These are items that are going to be traded and collected, so neglect the resale market at your peril. Suggest you offer discounts to at least the first few buyers, should you find any.

Design is ok, will say the metal color looks quite murky. Take photos that don't leave a shadow on the coin.