Bitcoin Forum

Go.

First!
EDIT: Second, technically.

No matter where I post on this thread I'm still first; I win.

:D

Wrong!

thirded...

And I fourthed maybe...

Well I suppose I'll mark the inception of this thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60586.msg900886#msg900886 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60586.msg900886#msg900886)

Bragger... :D

BFL,  At least A Dishonest Company, Quite Possibly A Scam.

1) False advertising regarding shipping times from day 0 until current - I believe this is done on purpose to build up funds in order to bulk order chips.
2) False advertising regarding Chips - Claims it is their own design, in fact they are reusing 2nd Hand Chips.
3) Accepts numerous pre-orders while being unable to meet delivery dates or production volume (Still stinks of a scam here).
4) Numerous BFL Shills plugging BFL on the forum (I SPENT BILLIONS, LOL YOU WONT EVEN TRUST THEM WITH 1 MILLION LOL).


For my attackers that love to screech, swear and generally just dump walls of crys here is the possible scam models.

1) Inaba is a con artist involved with BFL. He and his cronies put up photos, start threads and pat each others backs for being "HUR DUR SO FUCKING SMART".
- The BFL's are fake or do exist but only a small amount (just enough to get people excited).
- Inaba's pool is the only one that supports BFL (he fakes all the BFL stats), strangely Inaba still uses and buys large amounts of GPUS (I thought BFL was better ??? and the wait was worth it ???).

Seems less likely now, but the singles will not mine stand alone and Inaba & BFL has 0 credibility outside their circle jerk so a defnite statement is not possible.
All this would easily be resolved by involving a credible outside party such as Toms Hardware for a review.

2) BFL does not have enough capital to keep their own shelves stocked.
- They build up N orders until they can cover the cost of a bulk 2nd hand FPGA purchase.
- They then ship earliest orders and also cherry pick orders of vocal people in the forum.
- Rinse Repeat.

Seems extremely likely. At least this is not a con, its just extremely dishonest but that seems par for the course with BFL.

3)The single exists, BFL ships 10% - %20 of the earliest orders, stalls while total orders increase then when complaints are to high they ship another.
eg:

Week 1: 100 pending orders, ship 20.
Week 2: 80 old + 300 new pending orders, ship 30.

This is a ponzi scheme, until everyone asks for their unit or the money back the system keeps on working.

4)BFL is a startup company with absolutely terrible, but they are the real deal.
- They eventually get their shit sorted or are run out of business by other more experienced FPGA developers that have experience running a client facing business.

---

If I missed anything let me know.

From my current position I cannot make a call on BFL to say if they are legit or not. Until they address their own PR issues and start behaving like a professional company I personally see them as risk Im not willing to take.

Im a skeptic, I need more than the words of abusive fanboys to confirm somethings legitimacy.

If I did have the opportunity to visit their factory I would still not be satisfied with the BFL unless they allowed me to plug it into my own PC, using my own internet connection, target a pool of my choice and test.
After all that, knowing that they lied about 2nd hand parts being used and the ongoing false advertising regarding shipping Id still not do business with them due to concerns (package not delivered, warranty issues etc).

Im rooting for option 4) - I dont want to see a large chunk of the bitcoin community scammed yet again (Satoshi's Demon anyone ?) - it damages bitcoins rep and puts off new adopters.
I personally wish BFL would hire a PR person, fix their misleading advertising on the website and update clients on delays and if they feel inclined what the cause of the delays are (please do not say we need more preorders to buy the next batch of chips).

---

Feel free to give me a rant 2.5 pages long with a single point of "fuck you dumb 10 year old know nothing cunt" Inaba style if it makes you feel better, but it would be much better if we ditch the console wars mentality and discuss this in a calm fashion if we are to discuss this at all.

Just because the chips are on an old process doesn't mean they are secondhand.

Also, what are "crys"? Maybe it is some odd transliteration that google translate is screwing up.

I have 3 singles bouncing between MaxBTC, ABCPool, and Slush.  I've never mined with them on Inaba's pool.  I don't know where you heard that only his pool supports them.

Hi mem, I see you're still an idiot!  Please, by all means, continue to lie about everything.  Yes indeed, you are still unable to provide a single shred of evidence to back up a single thing you say, good work!

Somebody call the waaaambulance, Mem is about to whine some more about "wall of cries" when he gets refuted.


That would be great, so start acting like an adult and provide something, *anything* to back up your claims.

Here's a catalog of lies from Mem in his post to get us started (please Mem, provide some backing for these lies if you wish to maintain them):


What does this even mean?  BFLs can be used on any pool.  Fake BFL stats?  What the hell does this mean?  I don't even HAVE BFL stats on the pool.  I haven't bought GPUs in months.. the last GPU I bought was from Yochdog in January.  I've since sold off a large portion of my GPU farm.  But go on, continue to lie.


One quick look in the "ordered/shipped" thread would reveal this as a lie.  Go on Mem, lets hear some proof!


You know this?  You do not.  You are lying (wow, imagine that).  Go on, provide some proof.

Rock on, lets get the giant lie machine that is mem up and running, GO! 

PS - here's my prediction: 

Mem will say something about my "wall of cries."  Then he will insult me in some fashion.  After that, he will ignore anything written that requests some sort of backing to his claims.  Then he will say something about a "wall of cries" again and add another insult. Then, after he's done with this, he'll make up new fabrications or rehash the same ones in hopes that someone, anyone will listen to his whining and crying.  I mean, if you repeat a lie long enough someone is bound to believe it, yeah?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rc8k_D3yYoE/Tw4IyOKMysI/AAAAAAAAAls/awgasVzJMfA/s1600/Stephen-Colbert-Popcorn.gif

Hopefully this one won't get locked since it is in offtopic. ;D

BFL is clearly a huge conspiracy.

Clearly...That's why I sent them $30k.  I love conspiracies.

Errr...I mean mem is a dumbass.  No, I won't argue with him, as Inaba's doing a fine job, and it's hilarious.  As troll's do, mem will try to pull me in, though.

I have 4 units now.
I'm REASONABLY certain I haven't imagined them.

I laugh in the face of all those thinking BFL is legit. Second hand chips, lies, deception ... what more do you need ?

Just wait till the orders stop coming in and they pack for Barbados !

:D

Not a scam in my book.  They delivered the product to my door better than described.  I couldn't care less what chip they use, so long as it does what it is supposed to do.

Am I the only one who see's the irony here?

I laugh in your face at all your contradicting statements. You can't seem to decide whether you are for or against them. Reference the following quote, and compare it with the one above:


Get your shit together, man.

Just wait till that $60 chip in your BFL dies. Who knows its condition after it has been second hand used.

Some last 6 months, some last 7 months, some may last past a year. Sucks if it dies after 6 month warranty is up.

The whole "second hand chips" thing is mind boggling.  Mem's lies not withstanding, I have seen their chip shipments first hand (and hefted a 500 ct package of them) - if they are second hand, they are fine quality second hand goods.  The whole second hand chip thing is a baseless claim.  If anyone with more than a passing familiarity with the industry thought hard about it for more than a few minutes, it's fairly obvious how they acquire their chips.

SO you DO work for BFL then ?

Might be wise to state a disclaimer when you promote them so fervently !

No he's just the parcelboy that ran off with one of their shipments. :P

Grow up dude, and quit trying to make yourself look stupid.

The warranty is 6 months.  I purchased the units expecting them to last at least that long.  Even if they all die the day after the warranty is up, I'll have still made money on them.

So, what's your point?  Everyone has the same information.  Everyone buying them knows that they are only warrantied for 6 months.

Again, it absolutely DOES NOT MATTER what chips they are.  The warranty period (and thus expected lifespan) of the units is 6 months.  Anyone buying them with expectations of them lasting longer than that is taking a risk that they will not, no matter what chips are used!

I see Inaba is still unable to respond without throwing a classic E-tantrum.
Anyway - yes they are 2nd hand chips, unless BFL can point to a supplier who is prepared to announce they have a realtionship with BFL and do indeed supply new chips (will never happen).

What stinks is Inaba is this same person who is flaming the shit out of MTGOX (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81939.0) for a small delay insists that everyone "SHUT THE FUCK UP" when questioning BFL for delays. Such an obvious double standard Im starting to think Inaba is actually just a scammer playing the long con.

Here is an excerpt:

---

WARNING - RIDICULOUS LEVELS OF DOUBLE STANDARDS AHEAD

---

This is everyones complaint RE BFL, the difference being that MTGOX always address public concerns, the only buthurt users Ive seen are botnets admins (yes Inaba could be a bitcoin botnet bitch).
So note the extreme double standard, he insists you can trust BFL with x3 times  this money.


Yet again a double standard - it seems this behavior is completely defensible for BFL but unacceptable for bitcoins biggest exchange.
The only difference being is mtgox has the money you are waiting on and we are not certain if BFL's even exist in quantities above 50.



Yet again another double standard.
Apparently it is fine for Inaba to spit the dummy and attack MTGOX in 1 of his now famous e-rants, but should anyone such as myself politely air concerns about BFL's practices - get ready for the abuse from Inaba & his sock puppets.




Double standard, apparently its fine for BFL to lie for over 6 months but you wont trust a company that has a security breach and announces it ?

Explain yourself Inaba.
Without one of your immature e-tantrums if at all possible.
Possible BFL purchasers please note Inaba's double standards - do you really want to trust someone who is so inconsistent ?

Good work mem, you did exactly as I predicted!  Go Mem!  Your failure to reply is epic!

Just to recap:


Check, check and ... CHECK!  Hat trick!

Next prediction: He will whine about "NO I didn't, you didn't answer me!  Waaaa!"

Since when does anyone reveal the source of something that keeps them in business? Wanna bet on the response you would get if you went asking all the rest of the FPGA devs where they get their chips? I'll bet it would be something along the lines of go away, retard, although perhaps a bit more diplomatically worded.

I see you conveniently sidestepped all of Inaba's well placed arguments, and basically took it in the ass. Does this mean you finally give up on your ridiculous and inane claims that have no proof? Good, because everyone was getting tired of the same old bullshit. Now if you please, go find the nearest bridge and find out whether you can fly off of it.

^ me

They are sanded and lapped, others in the industry say they would be unable to source the "old" chips unless sourced second hand or paying ~$2000+ new.
These are 2nd hand chips, they have already been caught out in other numerous lies - it would not surprise me to in the least to see 1 more lie added.

No other FPGA developer has hid the identity chips used and definitely has not made outrageous lies claiming they developed them themselves.

What is your major malfunction here ? Do you guys really have such a flimsy grip on reality ? Should I expect this from all BFL supporters ?


There are none, WTF are you talking about.
Inaba simply failed to defend his massive double standards.


Inaba I appreciate you kept it short, but Im disappointed when put on the spot you cowardly refuse to answer questions posed.
i see you either scream abuse, side step or insult  but never ever address points raised.

Pathetic, go back to crying at MTGOX for your own failure to read a FAQ.

The only one lying here is you, brother.


Until you can respond to a single point you've made with proof, what's the point?  Everything you have said is basically a lie. You've been asked repeatedly to back up your claims and you have repeatedly failed to do so.  


BANG!  Right on the money.  

For my next trick:

Prediction time ... though this is a two parter, because it can go two ways at this point:

1: Mem will say he's done with this because it's pointless to argue.
or
2: Mem will "laugh" and pretend like he wasn't butthurt by the fact that he's been bitchslapped repeatedly but is too ignorant to understand what's being directed at him.  

Bonus prediction, in a recursive fashion:  He will make a comment with regards to number two, refuting that he's actually butthurt and will claim that no one has bitchslapped him and everything he's said is golden; everyone agrees with it and those that don't are too stupid to realize his brilliance or are BFL fanboys.

Who else is feeling a Google conference call with these guys? :D

my single is sitting here runnning just fine for two weeks now.

looking forward to getting my next 3...

and then ordering more :)

yet another baseless claim.

You really really do not understand simple concepts like the burden of proof do you (assuming this is not a purposeful display of ignorance).

You have raised 0 points - everyone here is reading the same thread, please cease your childish lies and pathetic distraction attempts. Please answer the questions raised or shut up - I for one am tired of the baseless claims you and other BFL fanboys put forward. As I told you previously and you still do not seem to understand what "the burden of proof" is.

Ive been running your rants past the local atheist club as you provide an excellent example of arguing based on faith while believing you are arguing on fact.
They suggested this reading material for you: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Skepticism

This quote in particular that applies to you is:


Let me know if you need help understanding that - Im prepared to patiently explain this you you however long it takes.

Allow me to reiterate the points I have clearly raised you have been unable to address.

---

BFL,  At least A Dishonest Company UNCONTESTED FACT, Quite Possibly A Scam.

1) False advertising regarding shipping times from day 0 until current- UNCONTESTED FACT
2) False advertising regarding Chips - Claims it is their own design, in fact they are reusing 2nd Hand Chips. - CONTESTED FACT Burden of proof lies with BFL, currently they have 0 credibility due to previous lies as do you. All available information points to them using 2nd hand chips.
3) Accepts numerous pre-orders while being unable to meet delivery dates or production volume (Still stinks of a scam here). UNCONTESTED FACT
4) Numerous BFL Shills plugging BFL on the forum UNCONTESTED FACT - You Inaba are now my prime example. All your claims are baseless and you attack anyone that dares question BFL or yourself and your argument tactics reek of confidence tricks.

---

So please, spit off another rant and I will re-paste the outstanding issues with BFL that you have failed yet again to dispute, or try to apply some critical thinking to this issue and how you plan to prove anything you have claimed. If you cannot (and Im 100% certain you cant), accept that anyone believing you is choosing to do so in good faith and not based on sufficient evidence.

Im all for it, but Im not up for a 30min abuse session from Inaba.
he is unable to dispute any of my claims (or unwilling) and he does not seem to understand "burden of proof" or debate methods.

It would be exactly like sitting down with a WBC member and debating the existence of God, all you will get is screaming abuse and spittle flying in your direction.

I agree with the second part of that :P

Oh really?  I'll just take one small example from your growing pile of lies.


Lie after lie after lie.  Keep it up, Mem, good work!  You might want to re-read the quote you made.  The burden of proof is indeed upon the claimant.  You are making claims, therefore the burden of proof is on you.  

You claim they are using 2nd hand chips.  Prove it.
You claim I make baseless claims.  Prove it.  Show me a single baseless claim I have made.

1 and 3 are the same, tired argument.  No one disputes they miss their shipping dates.  It's never been a point of contention.  That is, as usual, the only "fact" you've been able to provide throughout the long and sordid history of your posts.  I have already provided many examples of poof positive counter claims to everything you've said and you fail to respond to every single one of them.  


I'm going to have to say that bringing out the "Burden of proof" argument (especially when you don't even understand it) pretty much qualifies as you pretending like you wern't just bitchslapped yet again.  So... nailed that prediction as well.  

So... here we are, 3 for 3.  Lets go for four:

Mem will next repaste his post above, saying I don't understand the burden of proof.  He will try to make the claim that somehow his claims aren't really "claims," but "facts," even though this is no evidence (only speculation) for these "facts."  

PS -

I love the lie about running my "rants" past the local atheist club (population: Mem).  That's a good one.  The thing is, if you had actually run the entire conversation between you and I past anyone with even a smattering of logic, they would be laughing in your face uncontrollably. :)

I like how mem completely ignores all the happy BFL customers mining away...

Maybe he's just jealous that he didn't believe BFL miners were real earlier on.

I'll make you a deal Mem:  If I can prove, beyond a a shadow a doubt, that you have lied at least once in your conversations with me, will you concede that you are a liar and that you fabricate nearly everything you post?  Simple question, yes or no?  Of course, if you say no, then we know you've lied :)  If you say yes... well... I think we both know what will happen.

So you are citing 'Burden of Proof' as your primary Debate 'method' while pretty much swinging for the fences with accusations ?(albeit, from way out in left field....)
Isn't that (Burden of Proof) just a lazy man's argument ?
Regardless, I can't take anyone seriously, who begs for donations in their forum sig. Get a fucking job.


ps. Are you looking for Bitcoin donations so that you can use it to put gas into your Rape Wagon ? the one you will use to abduct & violate Children with ? Pedophile much ?
(enter----->burden of proof)
NOW PROVE ME WRONG.
(Is that how the 'Burden of Proof' debate works ?)

http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt319/Armand_1986/free-candy-van.jpg

mem, I 100% agree with your views.

The trolls are just coming out to play. They were probably given a free BFL to troll about BFL and their honesty. Notice how all the very vocal folks have BFLs too ! I'd like to see D&T have a BFL before the 6 week deadline this 24 May !

For the blind : keep buying more BOXES !!!

We already know they are about to pack up and leave us in the dust yet again.

Their business registration is invalid and their source of $60 chips that cost >$2000 USD in the US will run out at one point.

I will be laughing yet again at the fish caught in the net and holding the bag on these BFLs magix !

Bring it on !

You would. Broke/Envious people usually stick together and find whatever excuse they can to skirt the REAL issue(s).....the fact that they don't have what they want and are jealous that others do have it.

Haha, +1.

If they were a con, even a long con, they would have packed up and left long ago.

I was given no free BFL's.  I paid for 10 of them, and received 10 of them.  Bulanula, are you just jealous you don't have the stones to order from a company you think might not be legitimate?

Damn right. I am livin' off a dolla' a day !

Nailed it!

Poor Mem... caught between a rock and a hard place.  Screwed if you do, screwed if you dont... :(

Prediction: "I have a life and you don't Nya nya. That's why I haven't responded to your childish 'challenge.' U r so stupid! lol!!11!" 

Or he'll try to play it off as trolling. Pic related.
https://i.imgur.com/b5t1Q.jpg

I dont know them personally - if there are any in WA Australia Id be happy to take a drive to inspect one in person.
Infact Id love the opportunity - get in contact with me WA Bitcoiners.


Yes the business regristration is extremely concerning - another valid point Inaba refuses to discuss.


Incorrect assumption. They would hang around as long as possible while orders are still coming in.
Are you ignorant or just another BFL shill - Im not sure.


No because it is a ridiculous request made by a con artist - Are you seriously this unbalanced, its extremely concerning ?
If I have lied, raise the specific point and correct me and I will gladly admit I was wrong - Does that sound fair you big man child ?
I have made assumptions that have been wrong, shit happens this is indeed life.
Unlike BFL Im prepared to discuss any point of contention in a civil manner.

If you really believe that a single mistake invalidates all claims then BFL is a scam following the same logic.




OK Im assuming you are in fact a child :(

You make posts like that then claim you have "respect" my god your delusions are staggering.



Since I have only ever argued on facts available while doing my best to ignore Inaba's childish e-tantrums Id assume you are infact trolling.
If not, prove me wrong and contribute meaningfully to this discussion.

---

NOW TO REITERATE ALL POINTS BFL & INABA STILL REFUSE TO ADDRESS

---

BFL is A Dishonest Company FACT, Quite Possibly A Scam.

1) False advertising regarding shipping times from day 0 until current- FACT
2) False advertising regarding Chips - Claims it is their own design, in fact they are reusing 2nd Hand Chips. - INABA AND BFL REFUSE TO DISPUTE THIS Burden of proof lies with BFL, currently they have 0 credibility due to previous lies as do you. All available information points to them using 2nd hand chips.
3) Accepts numerous pre-orders while being unable to meet delivery dates or production volume (Still stinks of a scam here). FACT
4) Numerous BFL Shills plugging BFL on the forum FACT - You Inaba are now my prime example (please not the childish tantrums and abusive language repeatedly used). Inaba is an angry abusive idiot with 0 facts to support his outrageous claims. He has deep misunderstandings on debating and what the burden of proof is.

---

Inaba, if you can stop your childish displays long enough to address a point raised with counter arguments supported by facts then please do.

Otherwise Im sure you will continue your childish display of frustration. :D

Im not sure what this rock and hard place is, abuse from a frustrated child does not phase me - just another American with bad manners (hardly rare).
Im sitting pretty really, BFL is running scared, the outright accuse people of being trolls for asking questions or just blunty ignoring them.
Inaba is currently so unbalanced and spouting nonsense it makes countering him extremely easy - he spends more time discrediting himself via his embarrassing displays than anyone else.

subbed ! :D

---

Ok I just re-read one of Inaba's gems - he is either a Troll or the dumbest person online capable of typing.


Let me sum up our local WBC members mentality.

Fundie Inaba> GOD EXISTS AND HATES FAGGOTS
Atheist> How can you prove God exists
Fundie Inaba> YOUR THE C*** MAKING THE CLAIMS FAGGOT - YOU PROVE HE DOES NOT.

welcome back to my ignore list troll.

1) Perhaps they thought they could meet those shipping deadlines from day one, but kept running into delays (as they stated)?
2) So?  As long as the chips do what they need to do, I don't care which ones they use.  Most reasonable people don't either.
3) I'd rather them accept pre-orders than not accept orders at all.  That'd make more of a mess, as people compete to try to get an order submitted whenever they open it up for new orders.
4) Pointless point, and not a fact.

Hey, Spike: Who said you were allowed to think logically in this thread? ;)

Holly crap, a decent response. :D

1) More than likely if they are not running a scam. New company with a terrible launch and awful PR - BFL LIES
2) If it really was not an issue for all sides - they should announce the fact and not hide it. - BFL LIES
3) Agreed, though should of had realistic expectations of number of units they will be able to produce in the first batch so they do not accept to many pre-orders. Instead of advertising that shipping times are 4-6 weeks. (again new company launch badly handled, terrible PR) - BFL LIES
4) Inaba reeks of a confidence con artist, then we have the "Hur Dur I visited BFL and trust them with kajillions ask me anything.....what your asking me questions ? FUCK YOU BFL HATER TROLL !?!?!" - Debatable

So I am correct on 3 out of 4 points and the 4th is debatable.

You have provided good alternative explanations for possible scenarios - my issue is they are a company of liars, apparently you feel this is OK.
Frankly, as an individual that is fine (your life, your choice), but you should not in good faith recommend BFL without warning new clients of the many questions surrounding the company and the deceitful business practices.

Cheers, this is the kind of discussion I prefer.

---

BFL is A Dishonest Company FACT, Quite Possibly A Scam.

1) False advertising regarding shipping times from day 0 until current-BFL LIES TO CUSTOMERS - FACT
2) False advertising regarding Chips - Claims it is their own design, in fact they are reusing 2nd Hand Chips. - BFL LIES TO CUSTOMERS - FACT - BFL SELLS 2nd HAND CHIPS AS NEW - ALL SIGNS POINT TO YES - BFL REFUSES TO DISCUSS
3) Accepts numerous pre-orders while being unable to meet delivery dates or production volumeFACT
4) Numerous BFL Shills plugging BFL on the forum UNPROVEN

---

I suppose, for me, the fudging they do (or potentially, just the lack of sensitivity they give to updating customers to their current situations), doesn't bother me.  I halfway expect it in a startup company that suddenly gets way more business than they can handle.  They put a higher priority on fulfilling orders than they do on apprising customers of when their orders will be fulfilled.  I don't know that that is the right way to handle things, but it is their way of handling things.

That said, they are FAR from being a scam.  Everyone who has ordered units up through the middle of March now has received them.  Feel free to call them liars about their delivery times and what chips they use, but that doesn't make them scammers in my book, and I'm pretty sure most people agree with me on that one!

One definition of a scam is "to swindle (someone) by means of a trick".  How is BFL swindling anyone?  They are delivery a product (albeit late), and it is doing exactly what they advertised it to do (albeit with a different chip than they claimed).  I just don't see it as a scam.  Liars about some things, sure, but a scam, no.

Yep thats a fair position, no arguments there.

Definitely not a scam, but in my book (and yes I acknowledge that many disagree) still a potential scam.

Again, agreed. Lairs yes - Scam, no but maybe..... ?

The only scenario in which this is a scam is as I said previously, they accept orders for N products then ensure they only deliver (N/x) products scaling up deliveries as more orders come in. This is a just a Ponzi scheme that uses a product instead of weekly/monthly return on investments.
There are less likely scenarios but Id doubt they would pull anything bigger while operating in the USA.

Thanks again SgtSpike, while we do have differing conclusions I sincerely appreciate the exchange.

---

BFL is A Dishonest Company that uses misleading advertising, Possibly A Scam.

1) False advertising regarding shipping times Liars - FACT
2) False advertising regarding Chips - Claims it is their own design, bu they are most likely reusing 2nd Hand Chips and advertising as new. MISLEADING CUSTOMERS ON PURPOSE - FACT
3) Accepts numerous pre-orders while being unable to meet delivery dates or production volume FACT
4) Numerous BFL Shills plugging BFL on the forum LIKELY BUT UNPROVEN

---

Could you perhaps share some information about your mining operation and the hardware you currently use ?
How about what products you currently have on order ?

Maybe you are a competitor and have developed your own mining hardware that you are going to begin shipping soon.

Don't tell me that you Bitcoin Gambling list is your only claim to fame.....

Poor Mem :)  A giant wall of cries and still unable to refute a single point I have asked him to elaborate on.  Not a surprise from a confirmed liar...


Bam!  Four for four!  

Is it hard being so predictable Mem?  

You need to calm down there partner, are you raging behind your monitor?  I can only imagine whats going on behind that keyboard of yours.  Your wall of crying about how no one agrees with you is getting redundant, at least come up with some new material, hambone.

PS - just to head off the predictable post of "No you didn't!  AHahahaah I am so awesome," I give you a post from PAGE 1 of this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81819.msg901833#msg901833


Address it.


Address it.


Address it.

You have failed to address any point in that post.  This doesn't include literally every single point you have failed to address in every other thread as well.

So here's basically the rest of my predictions for Mem, since they all follow the same pattern:

Mem: BFL misses shipping dates!  BFL is a scam!  BFL lies!  There's no such thing as a real single, they are all owned by shills! BFL's company registration proves they are scammers!

Inaba:  Here's why your points are incorrect.  Reason A. Reason B. Reason C.  If you have proof to back up your claims, please provide them.

Mem:  OOh look, there's some birds and a cow!  Wow! A cow!  Wait what?  BFL Misses shipping dates they are liars that's why they scam.

Inaba: Yes a cow mem, that's nice.  Now address Reason A, B, and C.  Or hell, just address one point.

Mem: Hey did you see that movie last year called ... I don't remember, it had a guy in it.  Did you know BFL misses shipping dates and they are liars and scam artists.

Inaba: No, what?  Movie?  What does that have to do with the discussion?  Please address points A, B and C.  

Mem: You are an idiot!  You spit on your monitor!  You are a child!  Wall of cries WALL OF CRIES I say!  

Inaba: Yes, thank you Mem.  Now address point A, B or C.  

Mem:  WALL OF CRIES!  YOU ARE ANGRY!  I AM SPOUTING RANDOM SENTENCES!

Inaba: Great, but please address poitns A, B, or C.

Mem: Oh look, a cow!  I like cows.

Inaba and everyone else:  O.o

I believe his(?) line of thinking is something along the lines of  IF I REPEAT IT MANY TIMES IT BECOMES TRUE HURR DURR

Sorry, doesn't work.

Just staying on topic while the trolls troll ;)

---

BFL is A Dishonest Company that uses misleading advertising, Possibly A Scam.

1) False advertising regarding shipping times Liars - FACT
2) False advertising regarding Chips - Claims it is their own design, bu they are most likely reusing 2nd Hand Chips and advertising as new. MISLEADING CUSTOMERS ON PURPOSE - FACT
3) Accepts numerous pre-orders while being unable to meet delivery dates or production volume FACT
4) Numerous BFL Shills plugging BFL on the forum LIKELY BUT UNPROVEN

---

SgtSpike has agreed with 1-3, inaba despite his rants and the rest of the trolls do as well (if not please correct me, but it does seem everyone agrees on 1-3).
The main disagreement atm is 4 which only time will prove.
The other less significant disagreement is that lying to clients constantly == "A dishonest company", I personally would say thats the very definition of "A dishonest company" but I am one person with his opinion come to your own conclusions.

How much are you being paid to post bullshit?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81819.msg901833#msg901833


Address it.


Address it.


Address it.

You have failed to address any point in that post.  This doesn't include literally every single point you have failed to address in every other thread as well.

PS -  Nobody but you "agrees" on point 2.  Point 1 and 3 are the same.  You have exactly ONE point that you keep harping on, that being they miss shipping dates.  

Poor Mem, repeat your lies long enough and ...  nobody believes you anyway.

No, sorry, I agree with #2.  They did say it was their own chip design, and it was proven that it was not.  I don't know that there's any way around that.

It won't stop me from ordering BFL miners, but they did lie about what chip they were using.

But yes, #1 and #3 are essentially the same.

I was referring to Mem's lies about "2nd hand chips."  Honestly, I haven't the foggiest clue what he's talking about with regards to "Claiming it's their own design."  I just figured it was more rhetoric and lies.  If it's the one gem of truth in all his lies,  I'm not sure how that's relevant to whether or not they are producing products that function as advertised, though... whether or not they "lied" about "their own design" does not change the fact that they are shipping product in the hundreds (if not thousands?).

Right, exactly.  I couldn't care less what chip they use as long as it does what is advertised.

BFL did make a claim that the chip was their own design.  I don't remember when or where they wrote it, but I do remember reading it.  Then again, I could have remembered reading it wrong too... perhaps mem can point us to the proof of where they said it.  ;)

Ahh the chip, yes Id check the BFL_Engineer posts back going back awhile, paraphrasing from memory "the chips are of own own design - a custom combination of ASIC and FPGA technology".

Seems their FAQ is updated "The BitForce processor card is a proprietary implementation of both FPGA and ASIC technology.", iirc it was chip/card. Indeed the motherboard is their own design.
Im sure you have all seen the thread with another FPGA engineer stating that they either pay 2k per chip or source them 2nd hand.

I can't find any posts by BFL Engineer that state or imply they are using their own design.  I searched through his entire post history, and ctrl+f for "chip".  He responded to one post asking what chip was being used, and simply said that it was proprietary information, and couldn't be revealed.

Also, do you trust said FPGA engineer regarding the cost per chip?  Maybe BFL found a stash of them on the cheap that he didn't know about?

Even the statement that they were using a chip of their own design might have just been a misstatement by whoever said it, when they really meant their board was of their own design.  It doesn't help that we can't find the original quote either.  Mem, I was expecting better of you!  I expected you to have it all fully documented with links at the ready...

HAHAH... everything Mem has said is basically a lie.  You expected better of him?  Really?

You'll notice he still has not addressed a single point.  He is literally unable to back up even a single point he raises.  He's never done so in any thread he spews his crying in.

Im only human mate :) not a walking encyclopedia of all things BFL. These things would be a 100 times easier if BFL did not hide all their activities.
Its quite possible BFL found a stash, hence my concern about the volume of pre-orders - I hope they are not accepting more than they can produce.

In light of this new info here is the updated list:

---

BFL is A Dishonest Company that uses misleading advertising, Possibly A Scam.

1) False advertising regarding shipping times LIARS - FACT
2) They are most likely reusing 2nd Hand Chips. SELLING OLD PRODUCTS ADVERTISED AS NEW - LIKELY
3) Accepts more pre-orders than they can fill. OVER SELLING WHILE UNDER VOLUME - FACT (sgtspike pointed out that this was not clear and the wording used previously makes it seem the same as #1 - fixed).
4) Numerous BFL Shills/ trolls plugging BFL or on the forum LIKELY

---

SgtSpike has agreed with 1&3, inaba despite his rants and the rest of the trolls do as well (if not please correct me, but it does seem everyone agrees on 1&3).

Regarding 2)  sgtspike notes that BFL has made no such claim that they designed their own chip on the forums (Im inclined to believe him unless another quote is provided showing otherwise) but does acknowledge it is quite likely they are using 2nd hand chips passed off as new. It could be a simple miswording, saying chip instead of board - the board is indeed their own design.

The main disagreement atm is if they are or are not a scam - only time will tell.
The other less significant disagreement is that lying to clients constantly == "A dishonest company", I personally would say thats the very definition of "A dishonest company" but I am one person with his opinion come to your own conclusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_old_stock
^^ does not mean secondhand or used.

Indeed and its nice to see you stopped your childish trolls for a moment to discuss this.

Perhaps they were lucky enough to source these ~$2000 USD chips for less than $400 USD each still new while out of stock etc etc etc.
More likely they are reusing chips in my opinion hence the 6 month warranty and extended burn in time.

The claim is "BFL is able to source these +$2000 USD chips cheap enough to put 2 into a $800 device and make a profit".

Seems a bit outrageous, compare to all other FPGA based bitcoin devices do not go to great lengths to hide the chips type and source.
Does not seem on the level to me, BFL is welcome to step up at any time and clear all these queries.

BFL doesn't owe you any kind of explanation. Neither is New Old Stock related to being "lucky". What does a distributor do when there is no demand for some ancient product? Simple, supply and demand curves - they discount it.

http://img.sparknotes.com/figures/3/31d5c746a3dad4ab3eb48ba28b0fc043/asadgraph1.gif

Hey, I never agreed that they were using 2nd-hand chips, only that they are using chips that are not of their own design.  There is no proof that they are using 2nd-hand chips, besides some random guy on the forum saying that they are expensive chips.  Sure, you can draw your own conclusions from that, but it's not fair to say they are "likely" using 2nd-hand chips just because you see no other plausible explanation.

Good work Mem, continue lying! Even trying to back up your flimsy bullshit by putting words in SgtSpikes mouth while he's actually reading the thread.

Again, 1 & 3 are the same thing.  If they are "lying about shipping times" then it's because "they are accepting more orders than they can fill."  Any idiot can understand that, what does that make you?

No one has disagreed that they are missing their shipping times.  No one.  Ever.  Anywhere.  Yet you keep harping on it.  That is, quiet literally, your only argument and it's why you try to put it in your ridiculous "list" twice.  Give it up, man.  You are a loser, you are unable to backup a single point you make, and it's clear to everyone and sundry you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  You, my friend, are the reason people think bitcoiners are idiots.  You talk out your ass without a shred of common sense to filter your steady stream incoherent babbling.

"Most likely using 2nd hand chips."  That is laughable.  Back it up with some evidence.

I won't even dignify #4 with a response, since that is your last, desperate attempt to get people to take you seriously now that it's clear to everyone you've lied multiple times and continue to fabricate events willy nilly.  I suspect you'll just continue your wall of crying, yelling about the same, old tired debunked arguments over and over, hoping someone will listen.  WAAAAAAAAAAA why is no one believing me!!! WAAAAAAAA

tl;dr: Your only complaint that isn't a lie is "They miss their shipping dates."    If you've got something else, speak up and provide some evidence.  No?  Didn't think so.

Sorry for the outage, been a bit crook.

I say it is likely/ plausible/ unbelievable that they are doing anything else but sorry for misquoting you.

edit: forgot to include my running summary.

---

BFL is A Dishonest Company that uses misleading advertising, Possibly A Scam.

1) False advertising regarding shipping times LIARS - FACT
2) They are most likely reusing 2nd Hand Chips. SELLING OLD PRODUCTS ADVERTISED AS NEW - LIKELY
3) Accepts more pre-orders than they can fill. OVER SELLING WHILE UNDER VOLUME - FACT
4) Numerous BFL Shills/ trolls plugging BFL or on the forum LIKELY

---

1 & 3) Inaba & SgtSpike has agreed with 1&3.
Inaba will say "SO FUCKING WHAT, THEY LIED FUCK OFF AND SPEND YOUR MONEY ELSE WHERE" this is an agreement (just a childish one).

2)  All signs point to yes, BFL refuses to discuss. Inaba says "SO FUCKING WHAT".

3) Should be noted that their shipping times are getting shorter - a good sign for not being a scam.

4) See Inaba, nuff said.

The other less significant disagreement is that lying to clients constantly == "A dishonest company", I personally would say thats the very definition of "A dishonest company" but I am one person with his opinion come to your own conclusions.

---

Agreed they do not, with the burden of proof on them and them unwilling to backup their claims I am unwilling to buy their product.

They even seem unwilling to make a statement such as "No second hand chips are used in any of out products" much less to back it up.
With the questions/ accusations against them - its their own issue to clear their name or ignore it.

It a shitty way to do business, but I vote with my wallet.

Were BFL to suddenly turn around and address the issues satisfactorily instead of hiding behind their abusive shills like Inaba, Id be ordering 10x.

You really have no idea what "Burden of proof" means, do you?  YOU are the one making the claim, therefore the burden of proof is on you.  BFL has made no claims one way or the other, therefore they have no burden of proof.  But what can you expect from someone who consistently lies, is proven to lie and is completely unable to counter or provide any evidence for any of his lies.  

Go on Mem, keep lying.  You do good work in the lying department.  Love how you are putting words in not only Sgt Spike's mouth, but my own as well.  Maybe one day you'll grow up and stop crying about people not believing you.  I doubt it though, since the only way you can make your case is by lying, over and over.

PS - 1 & 3 are the same.  Still.  no matter how many times your little brain wishes it were not so, sadly it is.

I think Im all healed up :D

Anyway, to cut this short:

It seems their shipping times are improving rapidly and there have been no people on the forums complaining about not receiving their order.
I still believe they are reusing 2nd hand chips in the single, all current info supports this conclusion, we have seen a few failures reported on the forum regarding this.
They are the very definition of a dishonest company but the product seems legit and more importantly they seem to be satisfying order quantities finally so the likelihood of a long con in the forum of a ponzi scheme is low and getting lower the more  they close that gap.

BFL == LAIRS == FACT
BFL =~ SCAM == Potentially but unlikely at this point.


Its is possible they are simply a small company with terrible pr made worse by fanatical supports such as Inaba coupled with a really bad launch.
If so, sorry BFL but hire a fucking PR guy.

Inaba, I deeply regard that your own lack of self control and maturity prevents you from discussing questions raised about BFL - I have attempted to unignore you to follow up any new points you may have addressed but unfortunately you seem to be just posting bitter sideline comments like a child sulking.
Your personal attacks and rants (and the ridiculous tantrum you threw at MTGOX for your own failure to comprehend site terms and read a simple FAQ) are hard to credit to an adult, if true it is a sad state of affairs.

---

BFL is A Dishonest Company

1) False advertising regarding shipping times LIARS - FACT
2) They are most likely reusing 2nd Hand Chips. SELLING OLD PRODUCTS ADVERTISED AS NEW - LIKELY
3) Oversold while under volume LIARS - FACT - volume now appears to be catching up to supply, this dramatically reduces the likely hood of a con.
4) Numerous BFL Shills/ trolls plugging BFL or on the forum LIKELY

---

Mem = Liar = fact.  

Ergo

Anything Mem says = suspect and should not be believed without checking credible sources.


It's a sad person who can't even see that those he accuses others of are actually their own faults.  Mem, you are one of the more ignorant, self deluded people I have ever had the dubious pleasure to write to on a forum.  That is quite an accomplishment, as I have plumbed the depths of the most drama filled corners of the internet.  You are simply so thick headed and unable to even understand basic concepts it is absolutely astounding.  At first, I thought you were trolling, albeit very pathetically.  But I have come to the conclusion you actually believe the lies and just plain incorrect things you write, which makes it all the more sad that I bothered to converse with you.  

I say this in all seriousness Mem.  If I had known that you were literally mentally handicapped (maybe not legally, but from a purely uneducated and an "in tune with reality" sort of way.), I would have left you alone.  I don't normally pick on people who are so thoroughly unable to defend themselves; I am happy to pick on trolls and people who can give as good as they get, but you are neither; you never have been and I see that now.  I sincerely apologize for laying into you so hard.  I thought you had the ability to defend yourself, but I was completely and utterly wrong.  You are as simultaneously as defenseless as you are antagonistic (without even realizing how idiotic your writing is) as any individual I have ever had the misfortune to come across.  I would say I hope you learn from this encounter, but I know now that you are incapable (or perhaps just so blinded by your ignorance that you are just unwilling).

Good luck in your future endeavors.  I will continue to call out your abundant lies, but I will do it with a clinical detachment from now on, since it's obvious to everyone and sundry that you are mentally unable to comprehend conversation above a 5th grade level.

Tempted to rename this to something of the effect of "Inaba and mem's dedicated argument thread"