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We will report and compare the performance of those investments as well as a key site stat that you won’t find anywhere else. Expected annual return is based on the investors edge and how often the house bank is turned over. How many times the bank is turned over per year multiplied by the edge is the expected annual return.

We will update the figures and this thread at least every 2 weeks. Here is the table

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

We have also reviewed the operators here.

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-reviews/

It's still amateur hour out there i'm afraid, most sites leave something to be desired and some operators don't even reply when contacted. But we do love the house bank investment model and believe the industry will mature. The game changer will be a trustless implementation on the blockchain via a smart contracts... or something.

Nice stats. I guess one ninja scam made your average go below 1.I really hope no dice sites just runs away with funds like that.

PRC kicking ass and taking names

great stats, i guess prc dice good for investment :)

I play at Win88 Casino and Peerbet! Whooo.. Cool to see those sites.

I was looking for exactly this for quite some time, thank you!

Nice topic idea.

Will you update this thread regularly?

great stuff, really.
how are you going to handle new sites that enter?

Investing is so-so. Gamble and gtfo!

up 15 btc investing 19 btc when the profit was -83 on prcdice=P I love it

Thanks for all your comments it is very encouraging :)


Thanks for saying so, that is exactly what we were hoping. I first thought of doing it for myself on a spread sheet then I realized if that was useful for me it would be useful for others in the community so I decided to share it.


At least every week :)


The lesson from dice ninja says that we should not touch them!

Anyway we are able to add new sites and 7 out of the 9 columns on the table will be just as relevant for comparison. Or we could group some new ones together and make a round 2, perhaps make each table last a year. Anyway we really tried to include every decent option there is so this is not an issue for as long as possible.

Did you interviewed the owner of these sites? How did you come up with thos information?

Typo alert.

I invested small amount when profit was slightly above zero. Made around 37%, so similar to the OP. There were some crazy times when whales were playing.

Also made ~10% on DOGE investment, but not many people know that PRCDice accept it, so there are not many DOGE players.

VERY nice comparison table! Just one (small) thing... I am not sure I understand that final "score" column, is that related to the other numbers (seems not) or it's just about your general feeling on the sites?

It's not based on numbers but on their rating. Go to their website and click 'review score' to see how they rate it.


One thing I don't get. They say they've invested BTC1 in each, but in 'Bitcoin Casino' review score it says:

We contacted all the sites and most have replied but we do not need to contact the sites for the information in the table, the sites publish the size of their banks and the amount bet and we track that over time to work out the bank turnover time.


Good catch, we got in just before win88 (https://win88.me/usr/52225) changed that policy.

Here is the weekly update as of 24th of October 2014


Most investments were steady except win88 (https://win88.me/usr/52225) which had it's 3rd stellar week and will go to top spot if it repeats that performance.

Our password manager and ourselves did not record our Ice Dice (https://ice-dice.com/en?i=232250) user ID, thinking we could log in with our user name and password. We could not, the user ID recovery function did not work and support did not help. Luckily the user ID is part of the referral URL that we did record so we got access to our account eventually but it was a negative experience that showed up the lacking in Ice Dice's (https://ice-dice.com/en?i=232250) system and support.

See the live table (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/), operator reviews (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-reviews/) and more good stuff at the Bitcoin Dice Guide. (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/)

Maybe you should remove dice.ninja from the average computation, list it as dead or something.

Yup, good point; also very good work, following this thread  :)

i dont think he actually should remove it. he invested in it so did many other people. so as far as his investing portfolio is concerned in real life, he's down a full coin there. removing scam sites is getting rid of real world problems that are part of the investment risk that should be considered in an actual annualized average.

Should keep dice.ninja in your stats.
It keeps your report consistent and factual.

Thanks for the discussion on how to treat Dice Ninja for the purpose of this comparison table. What we will do is keep the real figures there and affecting the column average for
- Current Balance
- Current Return
- Annualized Return
as in that part of the table we are reporting real historical results. The Dice Ninja loss did happen during the time of this investment comparison and is relevant lesson to be reminded of. However we will remove the figures from
- House Bank
- Bank Turnover
- Investor Edge
- Expected Annual Return
- Review Score
and replace them with a "-" that will not affect the column averages as that part of the table is about hypothetical future return and it does not make sense for a non operator to be included. This will be done before the next update, sorry for the delay.

Here is the weekly update for October 30th 2014

https://i.imgur.com/5QDlu0O.png

• Dice Now (https://dicenow.com/) is rewriting their whole site and will launch with a new name and domain, the timetable is unknown. We are excited about this as they are already a high quality and reliable operator that do things a bit differently, not just another just dice clone. On the other hand don’t expect to see any improvements or marketing on Dice Now which guarantees the betting volume will remain tiny.

• Ice Dice (https://ice-dice.com/en?i=232250) website is not loading for me at the moment so their figures are not updated. I will keep checking until it loads or can be declared dead  :-\

• Peerbet (https://www.peerbet.org/) have improved their web design with a new background and home page. We have updated their review score which his lifted them 2 sports in the rankings.

• Coinwin (http://coinwin.us/?u=66984) house bank has more than halved in size and is now less than ฿11.

• PRC's (https://prcdice.eu/?af=Bitcoin%20Betting%20Guide) house bank has gone up another ~฿1000 and they were the only site with good turnover this week of ~฿1000.

Ice Dice (https://ice-dice.com/en?i=232250) have come back to life and their figures have been updated. They have by fare the lowest turnover and expected annual return, to be honest I am only invested in them for the purposes of this comparison. See the updated figures and Ice Dice (https://ice-dice.com/en?i=232250) review here

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-reviews/#icedice

In the time it took to write this they are offline again, so still having problems, feels like a sinking ship to be honest.

This is pretty cool! Nice work!

Keep up the awesome work :)

Thanks a lot for the support and encouragement ITT everyone. The investments are now more than a month old meaning the figures are becoming meaningful. If you like the investment comparison table (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/) I think you will find even more value in the rest of the Bitcoin Betting Guide's content. (http://bitcoin-betting-guide.com/)

We have updated all figures again, I don't want every 3rd post ITT to be a be a screenshot so please see the updated table here. (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/)

More than ฿1000 of bets reported on Dice Now (https://dicenow.com/) this week and even more on PRC (https://prcdice.eu/?af=Bitcoin%20Betting%20Guide).

It's interesting being invested in Coinwin (http://coinwin.us/?u=66984) when it has a ฿7 bank, it gives the operator much less incentive to do a runner and it means my ฿1 is 14% of the bank meaning I make 13% of site profit (after commission). The small bank is turned over every 2 days meaning I should make 0.9% every 2 days. Although so far every single operator is below their expected annual return which is calculated with that logic. This might point to operators over reporting their turnover, underpaying their investors :o or that bots making tiny tiny bets with stop losses on their martingales are actually making money.

It will be at least 11 days until we can update this again sorry for the delay.

Ok I should not invest in dice ninja...doesnt seem like a good annual profit l0l ;)

It will be very exciting to follow this thread. I may invest in a gambling site or two but I will be risking to loose 100% of the capital invested, I will cash out the profits every 10 or 20% to reduce my exposure.

i think you left out the most likely case which is site operators cheating by rolling and knowing the future seeds. any site operator that takes 0.2% wagered spread out over a large amount of time with several different accounts placing innocuously small bets is going to have one hell of a time ever being found/caught. the prevalence of the <1% house runs really points to this imo.

And what do you think about BikiniDice? is it a good small amount investment for a newbie? what other site would you recommend to invest that deals with altcoins for a beginner?  ;) :) ::) ???

I always like to see statistics well done like this. Nice work

This one look like many people to play

In the Reviews section (on your website), for prcdice you said:


Why do you see it as a bad thing? I'd say it's a more sustainable model. It adds some sort of confidence that the dev will have sufficient income to cover operating/promotional expenses even if the site is in loss position for a longer time period.

I see it as a strong point of prcdice.

Could you elaborate?

yea i got to agree with you pawel. same ev diff either way and if it takes some stress off the owner it works for me.

I agree with it as well. PRC Dice and Bitcoin Casino are strongly staying on the first two positions of this ranking.

these are some good stats. thanks for this!

nice thread, following it from now :)

If there are other sites that pop up, would this kind of profits/commissions arrangement be a good thing or not?

It may indeed be a more sustainable model on the part of the site/operator. However, it does not add as much confidence some people (not all) would have on how the site does not seem to trust it's own profitability otherwise, that the house is not "invested" in the bankroll.

I had considered doing this same "percentage based on turnover" instead of "percentage on profits" model. But have decided against doing that, for now.

All figures are updated again (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/), we are just about back to break even after the Dice Ninja loss.

The Total Wagered figure displayed on the Peerbet (https://www.peerbet.org/) dice interface has gone down since the last update ??? On the 5th it was ฿476.437 now it's ฿359.488. That is one of the figures the table uses to calculate bank turnover and expected annual return and this is the 2nd it this has happened. Peerbet (https://www.peerbet.org/) show another figure for wagered in the my invest page of ฿5467.832, I have contacted them for clarification. That's the kind of thing I mean when I say its still armature hour out there.


That's interesting, an operator could be making 1% on all users bets then make just enough winning bets (by knowing the seeds) themselves to take the overall site profit down to 0.5% which investors and users still accept as legit. I'm sure there is a way operators can make it provably impossible for them to do that I'm not sure if that is implemented anywhere. When you see operators report thousands of bitcoin turnover every other week with almost no change in site profit it makes you wonder.



By the "it's the same expected value" logic the site could pay investors .9% of turnover regardless of actual results, it's the same expected value but it's a bad idea because, in terms of payouts, the actual results matter not the expected value. It adds another angle to the potential for the operator to overpay themselves (in this case by over reporting turnover). I like the operator to be in the same boat as the investors.

See the table here http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

The investors cannot be paid on amounts wagered. That wouldn't make any sense. Operator's fee is paid from investors' funds (if player wins) or from amount wagered by player (if he loses).

If the investors were to be paid % of amount wagered (turnover is not the right word) then they will be effectively paying themselves from their own funds (on player's win) or from their own earnings (if the player loses). So not much logic in that.

This system is way better than 'traditional' one, as it places the operator right in the middle between players and investors, somewhat forcing him to care equally abut both sides.

There's no real benefit of operator being 'on the same boat'.

Imagine the site is making a loss for 2-3 months (lucky whales etc), you've lost some of your investment, but you're OK with that - you know it's a long-term thing. But, knowing there's a real person operating the site - you know he has to eat, he has a costs, bills to pay etc, you have no idea whether (and for how long) he can afford to operate at loss. If he can't he'll likely be tempted/forced by the financial situation to pull some weird stunt (rig the game, 'borrow' investors money, or simply disappear with funds).
With the % of amount wagered system, the above risk is minimised, as op has a steady income.

There are also a massive benefits re affiliate programs, but that's a different story.

For example, the dice site in question, just lost a bunch of profits. My share of the profits as an investor, I just lost half a bitcoin. All the while, the operator has been taking from the amount wagered. That's the thing about being in the same boat. Doesn't inspire confidence. Which is why, when I launch my own site, I probably won't be doing the same thing.

What is the minimum investment in Bikini Dice?

I invested 15 BTC in Win88 Casino and its all giving me plenty.
Site assured me to be well compensated and my investment is safe with them.

how can i invest in the house bank  of these sites?

That's not really an argument. Just a childish mentality: "I broke my toy, but the other kids are playing with theirs... that's not fair!"

You know if he was using the "traditional system", you'd still loose your money, right? Operator losing together with investors 'inspires the confidence'? How?

If you launch your site under the traditional system, how long are you prepared to operate at loss? What happens when you run out of funds?
Even if the site is on profit, what will you do if big investor comes along making your portion of profits insignificant? How will you mitigate that risk?

Thank you for updating your charts :) Very handy to know this.

Very good info.
This looks great on paper but does anyone have any real experience to vouch for house bank investing?

(Sorry, if this question derails your thread.)

There is a invest page or a invest button on them for you to invest in the bankroll.
You only need to create an account, deposit bitcoin in your account, and go to the invest page to invest it.

Good way to see information of the various type of casinò. But I don't see casinò like PrimeDice for example, why? Do you want to add bikini dice to your list? It is the ultimate casinò of bitcointalk community :)

Primedice is not an investment casino, and this thread is only about investment based casinos. And as for Bikinidice, op probably didn't think it was a safe investment option, and chose not to try it.

The site or operator is not confident enough to bet on his own site, to either fund the bankroll, or to share in both profits and losses. I don't know if that is an argument or not, but we're certainly not talking of toys here. Fiat banks lend to business on the strength of their business plans. Take care of your toys so you don't break them. Or play with them knowing you will break them (such as for target practice? My kid has a new Iron Man toy, likes to fling it across the room thinking it will survive.)

Most businesses are prepared to operate at a loss a minimum of 6 months, some even take 1 year or more. I'm talking about traditional brick and mortar businesses, not fly-by-night crypto businesses. Break even point or ROI for some fast moving consumer goods businesses that sell actual physical products in malls and department stores can take up to 2 to 3 years.

That's the mindset you should have when putting up a business. Admittedly, I see bitcoin based business such as game sites could probably make their capital investment and profits a lot more quickly than 2 to 3 years.

For any investor, I will only take 10% of profits. Small investors, then 10% of small investment profit. Big investor, then 10% of big investment profit.

No casino is going to give 1% or even 0.5% of turn over or wagered to their investors just because that is their declared house edge.

If the game were multi-player poker, and the house takes a 2.5% rake on every bet, win or lose, I think everyone understands that model. But we're talking about a game that is played against the house, not against another player. The house already has the edge.

Taking profits from investors when players win or loss does not inspire confidence in the house as far as the shareholders are concerned. This is gambling after all. Even the house gambles.

I agree though, that the house would have a more consistent income in the short term. It will never lose. It won't suffer variance.

Confidence = Are you willing to bet on it? If the answer is no, then you are not confident.

That may or may not factor in some other people's decisions. I am personally invested in that particular dice site, which is not an endorsement, I am talking the same risks as everyone else investing there as well.

You can also look at it another way, that the house is guaranteed to have income, therefore there is confidence that the site will make money. They are just not willing to bet on it.

It's not poker, but it can work on similar basis. You can consider players and investors playing against each other. Investors engage their fund long-term and, in exchange, they got 1% edge, and the operator is set in between (taking the rake).

So instead model: "players - investors+operator" you've got: "players - operator - investors". Doesn't make much difference from players' or investors' point of view.

I noticed you perceive investors in a traditional meaning (as shareholders), which isn't appropriate, they are players betting long term (on the house).
In terms of PRCDice, there are no shareholders, if there were, they'd be probably all in favour of the 'rake' system. Well, you can say that Dean is the only shareholder (afaik).

Anyway, I've seen on PRC chat that you're considering both options for your site and want to put it under voting. Great idea. Good luck with your site.

I like the idea but as an investor you have more risks on your capital but you know you have a 1% edge if the operator is not cheating when the poker player can always tilt and be an underdog or be mistaken about his edge.

Notsureiftrolling that is exactly what this addresses, these are all real house bank investments that I am reporting, not just figures reported by the sites or paper trading.


A few people are mentioning bikini dice, the truth is when I started this comparison I had never heard of it, it looks fine and reports all the stats we need so I will keep an eye on it :)

https://i.imgur.com/IqCmDBc.png

All stats are updated again (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/) and we have a new leader! Win88 (https://win88.me/usr/52225) is now king of the hill with 38.54% returned in less than 2 months which annualizes to 766.23%!

Big action on BitDice (https://www.bitdice.me/) this week with more than ฿3500 bet which saw site profit grow despite my epic ฿6.5 winning session :) To be extra rude I lowered their score in the reviews (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-reviews/#bitdice) after that session as I realized a couple of little thing that were not optimal with the betting experience.

Peerbet (https://www.peerbet.org/) have recognised there is a problem with their amount wagered display and are working on a fix. In the meantime we can not report on their bank turnover or expected annual return, we are working on getting the table to display a "?" for those cells.

We should be back in profit over all by next week! Here is where the table lives

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

If you can get 50% a year in expected revenue, it's a good investment since there is less than 25% chance that they will disappear in a year

More than 2 months in and we have hit our biggest milestone so far. We are in profit! Even after 1 of the 8 operators stole our entire ฿1 investment. Read all about it (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/)

We also have the first operator whos actual return is better than their expected return based on house edge and amount wagered. That is Peerbet (https://www.peerbet.org/) who have fixed their amount wagered figure allowing us to calculate their bank turnover and expected annual return. They also had a profit bump of ฿0.01 for the week

There was also a nice ฿0.03 profit bump on PRD dice (https://prcdice.eu/?af=Bitcoin%20Betting%20Guide) which has taken them back above Win88 (https://win88.me/usr/52225). They also got almost ฿1000 more invested in the bank

~฿3000 bet on Bitdice with almost no profit change...

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

I am wondering what amounts you use to calculate "Bank turnover" (and therefor "Expected annual return".) I mean BitDice's BR has 2 big investors on 10x kelly. Their virtual bankroll is 4340. The 1 BTC investor's share is 1/4340 not 1/960. So I am not sure if you use 960 or 4340. It looks like 960 though, which would give x4.5 higher wrong results than the real expected results. With DiceNow it's the same.

To calculate bank turnover we use

house bank
amount wagered when we started tracking it
amount wagered the last time we updated it  

For example if
the house bank is ฿100
the amount wagered 100 days ago was ฿1000
the amount wagered now is ฿3500
Then 100 is being wagered every 4 days so bank turnover is 4 days.

The important part is that means the investors should make 0.9% every 4 days.

Thanks for maintaining this, and congrats for reaching +ROI!

Any thoughts on adding inception date to each of the listed gambling sites? We take pride in our longevity over at Peerbet.

Good work.
Just a little thing: could be possible to add the longevity of each casino?

We list that on the revews page

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-reviews/

Peerbet is indeed the longest operating site included :)

Yes and add just-dice too : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=884724.new#new

^ I did not see that one coming. Doug has forsaken us.

Can you add diggit.io to your calculations please?

Thanks Bitcoin Betting Guide. I have search manually all dice and casinò games with a investor program and only now i have see this post.

You may find an other betting guide in this thread : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=529963.0

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

All figures are now updated. Losses this week on Win88 (https://win88.me/usr/52225), Peerbet (https://www.peerbet.org/) and BitDice (https://www.bitdice.me/) have taken us back into negative return overall.

Win88s (https://win88.me/usr/52225) result puts PRD dice (https://prcdice.eu/?af=Bitcoin%20Betting%20Guide) way out in front.

I will keep an eye on Diggit :)  

what's the risk of those websites going offline?

It is impossible to know because they can go offline whenever they like it. Like DN did no one expected that it would be gone out of nowhere.

Prc dice was pretty good but their website can use some improvements

11% so far :)

You could say 20% becasue there was suppost to be 10 operators but just as I launched the table dicebitco.in went offline, although in that case I did not lose any money.

i'm thinking of investing a large amounts in prc dice but I don't know if it's worth the risk...

20% chance they run away within 1.5 month?
so not worth it I guess? you would need at least 25% return (1.25*(1-0.2) = 1) to have no average loss

Great chart! I was looking for something like this, but somehow overlooked this topic  :-\. Anyway, thanks for putting this together.

PRC dice is around since early 2013, although they started as casino not just a dice game.

Both diceninja and dicebitco.in were very new sites when the shit went down. The risk of operator running away with the money is much less when site is operating for long time.

I have a small amount invested there, never had any issues with them other than some small delays with affiliate payments.

They'll be launching version 2.0 rather sooner than later.

All stats are updated (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/)  :)

Big week on BitDice (https://www.bitdice.me/) with our investment up from ฿0.999 to ฿1.070 and about ฿30,000 turnover.

Peerbet (https://www.peerbet.org/) went the other direction from ฿1.075 to ฿1.061 and had ฿3000 wagered which is quite a lot for them.

PRD dice (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671) house bank rose from ฿1768 to ฿1968 and their annual return is in line with their expected annual return which makes me happy.

Thanks to people who are thanking me for maintaining the table, I am really chuffed people like it, the adventure continues :)

So you are even with one site that fails.

Still no just-dice on the ranking? Because it's not in btc?

Thats right we are only including bitcoin sites. Ironic that a list made to help people find a replacement for Just Dice after its shut down can not include Just Dice's own relaunch.

great work. I think none of the sites listed shouldn't be removed from the overall stats, as scams happen in cryptoworld pretty often and thus should be part of the statistics.

Bravo! Thank you for taking the time and effort to do this.

I've been looking for something new to invest in, ever since I left the cloudmining game.

I'm sorry about Dice Ninja though. :( Hope you get your BTC back through your investments.

PRCDice launched a new version and went back to 'Pocket Rockets Casino' brand

https://pocketrocketscasino.eu (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu)

They now offer multiple investment risk options.

Are you going to stay at 1x kelly?

I see you updated the table on the website but you didn't updated this post. I'm sorry because I found your advices useful.

Hi guys, it has been so long between updates because we moved the Dice Investment Comparison (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/) to a whole new website called the Bitcoin Dice Guide (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/). We decided to make the Bitcoin Betting Guide (http://bitcoin-betting-guide.com/) just about sports betting so we have a whole site dedicated to bitcoin dice. We just launched it yesterday and we still have a lot of pages and content to add in the coming weeks.

We are back in profit overall.

The last couple of weeks has seen more the ฿4000 turned over at BitDice (https://www.bitdice.me/) yet profit continues to decline.

PRC (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671) has improved their website, going back to the Pocket Rockets Casino (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671) branding, their total invested has decreased quite a bit.

Peace of shit Ice Dice (https://ice-dice.com/en?i=232250) is broken again and I am not optimistic for the future. If it was just my money I would pull it out asap but for the purpose of the table I guess I will ride it out. Or perhaps I should not because if it fails the table will be way in the negative again and these are meant to be real life stats and in real life I could see the failure coming and did not want to keep the funds in there...

Win88 (https://win88.me/usr/52225) had a big fortnight with the investment going from 1.25 to 1.35, if that continues they will soon overtake  Pocket Rockets Casino (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671)for top spot.

Here is the new ulr http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/  and what the site looks like, feedback and ideas are welcome.

Nice to see separate website just for dice sites.

But you really need to update it, remove Ninja and Dicebitco.in and add the new ones.
You don't have to invest in every single one of them to make a review.

It would be useful to update the current reviews when appropriate. You really should mention multiple investment risk options on the new PRC site (and give them some extra points for that).


I don't know what's the issue with IceDice, but if you don't feel comfortable keeping any funds there - just divest! And invest in any of the new sites instead (if you trust them enough).

Just put an asterisk (*) next to the name and appropriate footnotes, i.e.:

* divested on [date] because of..
** invested X BTC on [date].

something like that.

And if you decide to invest in new sites, you don't need to put whole 1 BTC on each. 0.1 or 0.01 would give the same % return value.

I don't think updating the table (divesting/new investments) will mess up the results. You'll have to do it anyway, sooner or later, if you want to provide meaningful, up-to-date insight.

One of the new sites worth checking is https://safedice.com/ (https://safedice.com/), their official thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=868275.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=868275.0)

Friendly operators, responsive and quick with fixing bugs and implementing new features. House edge is only 0.5% (variable) so that's their advantage over others. They could focus a bit more on promoting tho.

They're accepting investments upon request (with no minimum).

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Someone has just lost BTC152 on PRC. You just can't predict things like that... But they do seem to be getting a lot of action since the launch of 2.0.

I have to admit this is very interesting and tempting oportunity. but as always its risk as well.

win88 is pretty nice

All figures are updated and it’s not pretty. See the table here

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

In the last 2 weeks Peerbet (https://www.peerbet.org/) had a nice bump from ฿1.07 to ฿1.132.

Poket Rockets Casino (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671) went from ฿1681 invested to ฿2661 and ฿135275 bet to ฿146375.

Our BitDice (https://www.bitdice.me/) investment went from ฿1.046 to ฿1.064 with site invest growing from ฿1290 to ฿1506 and around ฿10,000 bitcoins wagered!

With 10,000 coins wagered in 2 weeks at both Poket Rockets Casino (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671) and BitDice (https://www.bitdice.me/) site profit should have gone up a lot more, we say this about BitDice (https://www.bitdice.me/) over and over again, it seems they are either

1.   Unlucky
2.   Faking turnover
3.   Underpaying investors
4.   Any combination of the above.

I am unable to login to CoinWin and it shows no bets and no balances. This is probably another runner but because I only noticed it today I will give it a while. If the anonymous operators are out there please contact me to return my ฿1.141

IceDice appear to have done a runner costing me another full bitcoin. For about 3 weeks the site has just been a grey screen saying


and the operator is not answering emails. I am not that surprised, I should have seen it coming by the multilevel marketing program and previous problems.

4 months in and we have lost 11% due to 2 sites scamming us. Even before the IceDice loss a friend asked me what bitcoin dice site I recommend he invest in, I told him none of them. They are run by the B team or the C team and the operator incentives are perverse (they make more money disappearing or fudging the numbers than running the site honestly).

People are recommending I add new sites that have the same business model and risk profile as those that have just scammed me. They could literally be run by the same people. Unless the site gives me the ฿1 to invest this would be idiocy on my part.

I am glad to see there is a lot of discussion about trustless solutions, when this is in place I will again consider recommending people invest in bitcoin dice sites. For now the ecosystem is full of snakes and amateurs and is best avoided. That realisation has made this a worthwhile experiment and I will keep adding to and improving the Bitcoin Dice Guide (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com).

But PRC's profit have gone pretty high. Problem is the amount invested have grown by higher % then the amount wagered, so your share in profits got diluted. Not to mention that many investors are on higher kelly option. If you are on 0.5 Kelly (default option when moving to the new site) you should change it to at least x1.

Spot on, PRC's (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671) actual return is in line with their expected return (expected return is based on the edge and turnover, see it only on the investment comparison table (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-reviews/#bitdice)) so I am not suspecting them, Peerbet is close enough and CoinWin/DiceNow have so little volume its hard to make any conclusions. Win88 (https://win88.me/usr/52225) do not publish the data so I guess they should be suspected by default.

shitty luck but I guess that's part of what happens when you are also investing in the lesser dice sites. though dice ninja did seem like a reasonably good one while it was live but not so much with the last two.

Time to re-read what I said.

Although I removed my investment at BD because I cannot put my own kelly, their math does work out imo.

Their profit is even closer to expected than any other site:

Profit: 870.8 BTC
EV: 873.2 BTC
Profit/EV: 99.7%

Ice-Dice is down for last 2 weeks and all our funds are gone. I have 2.1 BTC there.

Anyone this some?

I've emailed this guy two weeks ago telling exactly the same, except we have weighted bankroll at B13655, and he counts it by B1510. All his math is wrong.

PS: This week V3 will be released where you can set kelly by yourself, among other updates :)


You forgot that for 4 month we were above expected profit 1.2% to 1.6% to be exact and now just got back to expected. The same is for PRC they were lower expected 1% for some time until recently somebody lost few hundreds BTC there and now they at 1%. So we aren't unlucky and don't fake turnovers. The problem is how you count profits.

It's quite possible that they are just unlucky. At Just-Dice even after over a billion bets and despite having a house edge of a full 1% we only had something like 0.38% profit. It turns out that most of the volume is in relatively few relatively large bets from a couple of big players, so the fate of the profit depends on their luck. You might that that after a billion bets the law of large numbers would start to assert itself, but when 99% of those bets are effectively "dust", that's not the case.

Since relaunching, the profit at Just-Dice has pretty consistently been over the expected 1% (https://i.imgur.com/vwITEYs.png). That's just as bad as being under 1% in that it makes things look suspicious.


You should try monitoring the site that invented crowd-sourced bankrolling, Just-Dice. It is run by the A team. We love it when a plan comes together, fool.

I'd be happy too give you 1 BTC worth of CLAMs to invest for the purposes of comparison. Set up an account and PM me with details and I'll send them over.


That's my biggest regret re. coming up with the idea of crowd-sourced bankrolls. It is a great vector for scammers to get their hands on large quantities of other people's money.

I recently implemented a way of partially addressing that problem. Investors on Just-Dice no longer have to deposit the full amount they want to invest onto the site. They can deposit just part of it and keep the rest in their own local wallet but declare the full amount as the amount they want to invest. That way if the site gets hacked or the operator turns rogue they only lose the fraction they deposited. In effect each investor is responsible for taking care of their own share of the "cold wallet". There's no big cold wallet for the operator to steal. See 'What is "offsite investment"?' on the FAQ tab at Just-Dice.com for more information.

If I remember correctly, Doge-Dice had much higher profit than JD. Maybe it's just people are braver/taking more risk when playing with altcoins.


OP, take the offer!

I have an account on JD. Gimme 1 BTC worth of CLAMs. I currently have a handful there, and no intention of taking it out, so why not bump it up to 1 BTC worth. hehehe.

OP: would you be so kind to review and include MultiDice (https://multidice.me) in your list. We accept investments at 1% commission and operate crowd-funding bankroll.

Did you read his terms?

I have now, but why this reminder came from you and not the OP?


Can I ask you politely, on what grounds would you consider MultiDice same business model and risk profile as icedice or the other site?

We count it as exactly what you display front and centre on your website


I don't see weighted bankroll anywhere. You have 2 big investors on 10x kelly? ok... If person A has ฿1 invested at 1x kelly and person B has ฿1 invested at 10x kelly does person B receive 10X more  return from the sites overall profit/loss?

Help me understand it fully and I will either change the bankroll figure we use, change the calculation or just add a footnote.    


The review score is how highly we rate the site out of 100. If you click on the review score you will be taken to that sites entry in the Bitcoin Dice review page

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-reviews/

For which is better between PRC (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671) and Win88 (https://win88.me/usr/52225) it depends what you are after and what is important to you. For that reason we made the Bitcoin Dice Site Selector

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-site-selector/

You tell it what you want from a dice site and it will give you personalised recommendations :)

This is a really good thread, just read the return and I am thinking of investing in a dice site, looks like good return rates.
Just learned today that dice.ninja closed down. Shame

You could check our official thread where I post how many investors we have and what's their kelly level. We have about 10 investors with high kelly level. And yes, it means that investors with 10xKelly receives 10x times more than he actually invested [think of kelly as a leverage in forex, it allows you to trade with leverage, on dice sites it's actually the same]. That's what kelly means and thats why I told you about your wrong calculations by email. You should know that BitDice risks 1% of the bankroll, PRC or JD risks 0.5%. Knowing it you can calculate weighted bankroll and eventually your real percent in it.

BitDice as well as all major dice sites show only real invested amount. However if you check your invest statistic on each of those websites you see real supplying percent.

At first glance everything. On what grounds is it different?

Also I wonder by what reasons you've lowered our review score from 82% to 77%? Is it because I've decided not to buy paid ad on your website in January?

Because I played some more there and found the betting interface sub optimal, the Go Auto bot in particular as I detailed here.

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-automatic-betting-bots/

I still like BitDice overall though, I will look into the weighted bankroll and supplying % stuff soon.

Well, first technically we are not a "small new site". MultiDice was around for months when we used to operate buggy coindice script. First royal-casino then Bitcoindice and now MultiDice. I made a bad decision to start MultiDice brand using coindice script. I tried for months to make it right, invested substantial amount of money, hired developers but it was all for nothing as the coindice code was so buggy the only rescue was to re-write completely or start over. We decided to shut down the site back then and look for most secure code available, we allowed everyone to withdraw their funds which of course went without issues or missing balances, that's second.
 
Only recently I re-launched with a new site, fresh balance, backing from trusted developer and support from good people, again after lots spent and hours of work. This time we did make it right, the game is fair, UI attractive, servers are safe and site secured to the point I can sleep at night without worrying about balances.

I hope you feel a little safer now to test MultiDice, but just in case I am willing to put 1BTC in any trusted escrow provider you name for the time you keep your funds at MultiDice. If anything goes bad escrow will just release it to you. 
   

All figures are updated comrades but its a sad sight I'm afraid

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

In terms of investments Peerbet (https://www.peerbet.org/) had a great fortnight going from ฿1.132 to ฿1.226 and Win88 (https://win88.me/usr/52225) had a nice bump from 1.348 to 1.380

There was ~฿4000 wagered at BitDice (https://www.bitdice.me/) and ~฿3000 at Pocket Rockets Casino (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671)

CoinWin became the 3rd brand in 5 months to do a runner and cost us the full ฿1 investment. The bank was very small and there was no way to contact site admin so it was a dumb place to invest in anyway.

It leaves us only ฿6.096 of the ฿8 invested.

Just-dice ftw

eagerly awaiting to see BitShares PLAY in that table too ..
at least you cannot get scammed there :)

Was most of the amount lost due to scams or was it investment loss ?

Scams. 3 out of 8 sites run away with the funds. It's close to impossible to lose 100% investment if the site is legit. All the other 5 sites returned some profit.

did you take d00g up on his offer to get some free clams? seems like the least you could get for running this whole thing!!

Ouch, 3 of the "top 8" sites were gone after just 4 months. The remaining 5 sites have a very good return rate, except for dicenow with only 3% p.a.

Lesson learned: The house is very likely to get nice profit with the presence of house edge, but it may not be the case for bankroll investors.

What do you mean by that? Are you suspecting operators to somehow steal the investors' earnings? If so, that shouldn't be difficult to prove. Care to elaborate?

Or are you just trying to increase your post count?

Interesting.  The question is though... How can you consider using DICE sites an investment and not purely a gamble?

He didn't.

That offer again, in case he missed it:

Eh, by simply clicking on the invest option rather than the roll one.

I think his point is that "investing" is a gamble too because at least 3 of the top 8 such sites were run by scammers.

We are not particularly anti alt-coins but we are only covering bitcoin operators for the moment. 

Nice thread, thank you for this info. This should also help newer investors decide where to head  :P

Huh? What kind of proof do you want lol?
As I said, 3 of the top 8 sites OP invested (Dice Ninja, Ice-Dice and Coinwin) become a scam within just 4 months. Just click the 3 sites' link in OP, and you will realize they are all down for quite some time already.

So nope, the 3 sites didn't just steal investors' earnings, they stole all the investments and deposits from gamblers.

I was referring to this part of your post:
"Lesson learned: The house is very likely to get nice profit with the presence of house edge, but it may not be the case for bankroll investors"

You made it sound like the house is taking a profit while investors don't. Which is not the case if the site is legit.
3 operators turned to be scammers but that have nothing to do with house edge. If the operator is genuine, his profits will go in line with investors' profit.

So the 'lesson learned' should rather be: "don't invest if you don't have any trust in the operator"

I see. I should have made my point more clearly, and sorry for the confusion caused. :)

Actually since Dec 31st we allow up to 10% risk for any investor and JD now offers any risk level up to 99% as far as I'm aware.


The thread title and the stats posted are misleading and not representative of dice investment in general.

Some of the scam sites (on this list or not) were obvious or suspicious from the start and I and others tried to warn people of them.

But unfortunately people, including yourself, got scammed. It hurts the whole Bitcoin community, not just the gambling section of the forum and also makes it harder for all the legit Bitcoin operators.

The (total) ROI you posted isn't an accurate reflection of investing in the, very few, honest dice sites either.

Some of the investors at https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ have over 100% ROI in the past 6 months and on average it is positive for all investors with a much better ROI than investing elsewhere. Even your own stats show 40% ROI which is a very good return.

Maybe you should keep the scam sites listed but show 2 figures for your ROI. One for your ROI from all the sites still in operation and one for the total like you have now?

Are you serious ? I have seen you post about every other site being a scam site in chat. A just because 1 or 2 of them were, you are saying you saw them coming ?
Maybe you should look at your trust rating. A Scammer fits the profile you currently have.
And where is that bounty I was promised ?

JD allows you to specify "offsite investment" - funds you have access to, but didn't yet deposit.

Investors risk up to 0.5% of their total investment (onsite + offsite) per roll.

Some investors claim huge "offsite" amounts. Some of them are presumably lying about the funds they have available, but that's OK.

PRC still seems to be going strong.  :)
The high scam rate in the industry is disheartening, though.

Dean, I kinda gotta disagree with you. I guess if BBG wants to make multiple percentages, that would be cool, would be more work but I guess give people a clearer picture or at least look at it from different sides.

I have been investing in dice sites for a while and done great. I just narrowly dodged a huge scam with dice ninja... almost put a massive amount of coin onto the site but didn't about 48 hours before it scammed, and I was only doing that bc of d00gs recommendation.

I know I have gotten real lucky dodging the scams, but I also think there is some skill in it too. Knowing who and where I'm putting money with and who I choose not to.

Mostly though, scam equity is kind of a big deal in this industry and pretending like it isn't there isn't really realistic or fair though.

Thought it was my warning?

I threw the flag early twice on that :P

Dean's a fgt.  Just a matter of time till he gets hacked and anyone who losses coins there had it coming to them IMO.

Why dont people understand that martangels technique also has defects

thats the thing, it may have defects but the cool thing is that it works until it doesnt.

The title and stats are not misleading, they are real life actual true figures, that is the point. You are right about some of the sites being suspicious, no actually all of the sites including yours are suspicious, but there is a continuum of less suspicious, such as Pocket Rockets Casino (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671) to more suspicious, such as Coinwin and I reflect that with a trust rating on the reviews page (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-reviews/), anyway in general means overall not just one end of the spectrum so my figures are representative in general. The total RIO is not supposed to be a reflection of investing only in sites which retrospectively have turned out to be honest so far (all sites are honest until their not). Anyone can see the RIO of the honest (up to now) sites listed individually.

Sorry it has been 3 weeks since I updated the thread. In that time

Another solid bump at Peerbet (https://www.peerbet.org/) from ฿1.226 to ฿1.286

More than ฿1000 per week bet at Pocket Rockets Casino (https://pocketrocketscasino.eu/ref/671), no change in profit.

Bitdice (https://www.bitdice.me/) was showing 504 Gateway Time-out when I tried to check and Win88 (https://win88.me/usr/52225) is showing an investment balance of ฿0. What true captains of industry we have here.

BTW I had a go at the new dice product on Betcoin (https://www.betcoin.ag/?a=197) and I really like it. Unfortunately (or fortunately ? haha) there is no investment and no auto bet bot but for normal betting I like the simple layout and easy to use betting interface with big buttons and clear functionality. House edge is 1% and the biggest bet so far was ฿16.

Happy rolling :) here is the table

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

There surely is a continuum, but I've no idea how you're meant to figure out where any particular site lies on it. I've put my trust in two different dice sites and been shown to be wrong in both cases. They both looked very professional and well thought out to me, but turned out to be scams. Things are further complicated by the fact that as well as the honest <---> scammer continuum you also have the competent <---> incompetent continuum operating orthogonally to it. I think I made the mistake of thinking honesty was correlated with competence, and so ended up trusting the wrong sites.

tldr: bad guys can be smart

I see what you did there. But I'll just let you know that I started Pocket Rockets Casino before your site opened, continued to operate while you were closed and still will continue to operate into the far future. In almost 2 years I have never lost a single satoshi of a player or investors money due to incompetence. But nice to see you still always trying to put the site down.

There's been over 450 Bitcoin profit since the start of this year which isn't bad at all.
1000 wagered a week should expect 10 Bitcoin profit a week. So yeah it's been a little slower the past few weeks but still a lot in the past 2 months.


What is suspicious about it? PRC has been around longer than almost all Bitcoin gambling sites without any investor losing money.

What is it people are waiting on me doing? How long does it take to be seen as trustworthy?

I even added the leverage system so I don't need to hold on to as much Bitcoin and give even less risk to investors.

The max bet at Pocket Rockets Casino is larger than all Bitcoin dice sites. I don't need more investment so there's no magic number I'm waiting on before running. I'd still prefer it to go down a bit, more people could use the leverage system for example.

I'm adding multi sig wallets for investor funds too (as soon as I can get a hold of most of the top investors).

I'm sorry you have had issues with some scam sites but none of that is a reflection or comparable to Pocket Rockets Casino, which has clearly proven to be the most trusted Bitcoin investment site.

Yes, but nobody else did. I thought we had agreed that I wasn't going to point out problems with your site any more and you would stop trying to defend it. Wasn't that our truce?


Well, you used to run a poker site, then when it didn't gain much traction you switched to running a dice site. I guess you can call it the same site even though the domain, game selection and even the design are completely different now. I'll stick to my side of the truce and not bring up old examples of losses suffered by investors due to incompetence.

If that was true, you wouldn't be having a negative trust here. Also your site is not here since 2013 , you only gained traction in 2014, when you gave away that 50 mbtc deposit bonus.
So obviously, no , just because you started in 2013 , you don''t become trusted, as the investment part came in 2014.

IF a company starts in a year, and after 10 years of failure, changes its product line, and starts taking in investments, you cannot claim that it can be trusted with funds, because it was launched 10 years back.
I might as well start a dice clone script now, and 5 years later change it to an investment casino or start an exchange and claim I can be trusted because I launched 5 years back

Huh, I was just talking about you in response to a different Dean post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=887220.msg10617563#msg10617563).

Wasn't it you who first discovered DB's nonce-skipping?

Yes we did but every time I come into the forum I see some snidey remark or little dig from you aimed at PRC. Doesn't sound to me like you're holding up to your agreement.

In regards to the other part and finnile's comment.
I opened a Bitcoin gambling website in 2013, in 2015 it still is a Bitcoin gambling website.
I'll just stick to the PRC thread from now.

Yes it was me. I showed off the losses to Bazza and a1choi on chat, and had Bazza confirm it.
Dean just tries to claim it was him, just so he can get the credit to PRC

He was also the only guy who was blaming you and was spreading stuff about you being responsible for that scam. Thats how people like duckydonald get such stuff to say. (Not starting a war here )

Yes thats what I mean. I am planning to open one of those clone scripts as well, with the name exchange in the site.
And then open a trustworthy exchange few years down the line

I used mydice.co and made 40% profit on invest in a couple days. Wishing I deposited more than 0.01. Sadly I busted that profit, but this site seems to be doing well so far.

Ladies and Gentlemen all stats are updated except Bitdice because I cant log in since the site upgrade and Winn88 because their investment page is not outputting my balance.

The news is the rise and rise of Peerbet has continued taking them to the top of the leader board for best return making them the 3rd site to make it there after Win88 and Pocket Rocket Casino.

In a nice development 3 out of 4 sites that did not scam me and have the relevant figures available are performing in line with expected annual returns :)

I have added another non investment operator to the reviews, that being FortuneJack who I recon are pretty good for a roll, more info here http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-reviews/

ty for update

Thanks for update.

Excluding those 3 scam sites, it adds up to 25.7% return for 5.5 months, not bad at all. I hope you'll turn to overall profit soon.

Woo hoo!!

Wait till our next version of PeerBet.org is launched!

Are the bank turnover figures updated? While peerbet has a much longer turnover and a similar edge then the other 4 sites, it is surprising to see it gives you the highest return rate.

notsureifserious. Excluding the 53 games the New York Nicks have lost this season they are undefeated, not bad at all. amiright?  


Yes bank turnover stats are up to date. The peerbet bank has just been having a good run (or Peerbet is faking numbers I guess, but I am not suggesting that)

I have nothing but great things to say about peerbet... other than their site could use some work but I think Tim is motivated to do that.

BBG... do you have some bad feelings about bitdice.me based on something you said earlier? or other concerns going forward about certain sites? or are you just trying to be neutral, not guessing and riding the ship as she goes?

Your NY Knicks is not a best comparison. It would work only if you've lost those 3 BTC during normal course of business (lucky players take your investment). But you got scammed.

Looking at your stats, I get the conclusion that investing in bankroll can be a good idea, providing you choose reliable site(s).

If your conclusion is that such investment is a mistake because you're unable to determine which site is trusted, then stop 'betting on the Knicks' and withdraw what's left.

All figures are updated again :) http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

Not much change on the table but Win88 did tell me my balance and it puts them back at number 1 but they don't get to go there since I still cant see it on the site.

Big changes coming up to the way Pocket Rocket Casino pays commission, the change has not started yet so I am not fully across it, perhaps Dean or someone cares to explain?

Wherever we have the option we set our investment to 1X Kelly as that seems the closet thing to a "standard" nowadays.

I went to Dicenow and there was a ball of tumbleweed blowing across it, seems to be kind of deserted. 6 months ago admin told me they were building version 2. IDK but other sites are changing and innovating but Dice now seem to be stuck in neutral and getting very little use.

Peace out.

Updated the figures

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

PRC now pay them-self 0.25% of turnover commission from the bank no matter if investors profit or loss. If investors have a loosing month to bettors they will then lose even more by paying PRC commission on turnover. Where as most sites only take a commission from their investors when they win.

Also the 0.75% investors edge is 0.15% less than the standard 0.9% so you can expect to make less per bank turnover on PRC than other places but if PRCs bank turns over more often than other places that would make up for it.

I asked to withdraw my investment from Win88 as there is no point having a bunch of ? on the table. Chat support could not do it but they said admin to do it "soon".

I finally got around to reviewing Primedice (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/goto/primedice) and by golly its the best dice site I have ever seen! Beautiful design, fantastic auto-bet bot, near instant transactions, long history of trouble free operation. Everything works perfectly and is intuitive. The only problem is they don't have investment and max bet of ฿20 is a bit small, but if you want to play rather than invest go directly to Primedice (http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/goto/primedice), do not pass go and do not pay 200 clams.

PRC did announce that well in advance and clearly said they were not looking for more investments, as the max bet is already too high.
So yeah, the fee seems pretty high, but if anyone is not happy with it he could divest/withdraw before 1 April.


And that's probably why there was no massive escape of investment.

Just to get the word out, (James feel free to delete if you feel it's the wrong place)

We are in the process of removing (or rather, replacing) Hunter Coin. This is due to the inability to get the HUC wallet to work consistently and, it's rather low market cap, as well as limited use on PeerBet.org.

Over the course of the next several weeks, we will also be replacing the following coins as they don't have a sizeable amount of play on Bit777.com or PeerBet.org and also suffer from a rather weak market cap
- PrimeCoin (XPM)
- NameCoin (NMC)
- FeatherCoin (FTC)


Users on PeerBet.org will, of course, be able to divest from the bankroll and withdrawal for an indefinite amount of time after an alt-coin is deprecated!

That will leave the constant coins to the following
Bitcoin
LiteCoin
DogeCoin
DashCoin
PeerCoin


Have an idea on what new alt-coins we should bring online?!? Chime in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280487.msg11133815#msg11133815

nice business move, hopefully we will see the site expand further as currently im keepin gup with OP's investments and it seems the site is extremely profitable atm :D

Looking good Peerbet.org (http://Peerbet.org)... Looking good.

https://www.casinobitco.in/hotlink-ok/peerbetimg.png?ver=1

yep yep the turnover seems amazing and i hope the casino can keep churning out profits like this :D Keep going peerbet :P

If I understand the remark 2 correctly, the smaller the "bank turnover", the better it would be for the investors.
Regarding just the turnover figure, Peerbet is in fact ranked as the third among the four and it is not so amazing.

Why are you so sure that your peerbet is the best when there is still so many dice sites that have higher bankroll than you guys, like dadice for example or may be primedice. There are so many dice site that got higher bankroll lo houseedge and still you claim that you are the best for investment. It doesnt make any sense

huge bankroll had nothing to do with the annual return. There are many several things to consider , one of the thing is that the house edge for investor , house edge for players and the wagered ammount in the site. The turnover is actually what you will gain as a investor and it had nothing to do with the bankroll

Bankroll is definitely relevant. Actually because the BR is so relatively small at peerbet your expected return is relatively high since with 1 coin you will have a bigger percentage of the winnings (and losses.)

Since most sites allow investing on margin, bankroll shouldn't be used though but the "virtual bankroll" should be used. I tried to explain it before to OP but he seemed confused and I can't care too much to explain further. Without the "wagered" numbers it's unclear if the given numbers are correct but you should probably assume the "turnover / expected annual return" numbers are incorrect.

I see so bankroll is a definitive aspect for it too. Since you mentioned the wagered amount, I realized that there is none of it presented here and I do think that their is a flaw in the data since there is no formula presented here as well how do OP get the number of the annual return

Incorrect, The size of the bankroll and your % of the bankroll is irrelevant, if your ฿1 investment is 0.1% of a bank that is turned over 100 times per year with an investors edge of 0.9% you expect the exact same return as if your ฿1 investment is 10% or whatever% of a bank that is turned over the same amount of times and has the same investors edge.

What you might be getting at is that you could assume a smaller bank will be turned over more often and that would increase your expected return.


When I checked most sites did not provide a virtual bankroll figure, I am not confused by what it is or what figures should be used. Obviously the wagered numbers are used to calculate the turnover and the expected annual return.  


Annual return is current return extrapolated to a year with compounding, perhaps you mean expected annual return, see footnote 2 and 3 for on the page for that

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

2 Bank turnover is how often an amount equal the house bank is bet. This is how often the investors edge should be realized. For example if a site has a 0.9% investors edge and it takes 23 days for the bank to be bet through, then investors should make 0.9% every 23 days. We tracking this over a rolling 90 days.

3 Expected annual return is how many times a bank turnover occurs in a year multiplied by the investors edge with compounding.

I guess I could/should wright out all the formulas as numerical equations as well as sentences as they are here...

You are joking, right?

It is something like this, right?

Yearly expected return = ( yearly wagered * edge = expected profit ) / virtual br *100%

Obviously bankroll is relevant since it's in the formula.....

Sure: if wagered is low, your return will be still bad despite BR. Sure: EV can be same even w/ bigger BR if wagered is bigger (eg: bank turnover is same.) But BR is relevant, just like wagered and edge are relevant.




Just because you like to use the term "bank turnover" and do something like this:

Yearly expected return = 365 / [(virtual br / (tracked wagered / tracked days)) = bankturnover] * edge

Doesn't change anything, since "virtual BR" is still in the formula and therefor relevant.

The question is if you calculate turnover with: bankroll/wagered or virtual bankroll/wagered. It should be the latter one and "bankroll" is completely irrelevant. Since you do list bankroll (and not virtual bankroll) it is still not clear which one you use. Calculating the virtual bankroll is btw dead easy, most times just max profit * 100 if edge is 1%.

Example:

Site has 246 BR, but 245 on 10x and only you are on 1x. So virtual BR is 2451 BTC. Your return is 1/2451 of winnings and losses. Let's say wagered is 13529 coins in a year and investors get full 1% edge. We get:

EV = (13529*0.01)/2451*100 = 5.52% per virtual coin invested.

So for the 1x guy his profit would be .0552 per coin. For the 10x guys that would be actually 0.552 per coin. This adds up: (0.552*245+0.0552*1) = 13529*0.01 = 135.29 BTC profit.

If we use just normal BR:

EV = (13529*0.01)/246*100 = 55% per coin. That is wrong. Because the profit is: 13529*0.01 = 135.29 and you as 1x investor get only 1/2451 of this = 135.29/2451 = 0.0552 - not close to the promised 55% per coin. I am assuming you are doing this which explains the high wrong numbers for BitDice.





It is even pretty clear you use just bankroll:

BitDice has a virtual BR of 10,010 BTC. You say they need 10 days for bank turnover which is: 10010/10 = 1001 a day. 1001*195 days that you are tracking = 195,195 wagered. BitDice is currently at 102,132 BTC wagered in all-time of it's existence so you are using "normal BR" - which is wrong as explained above.



If the "wagered" numbers would be there I could calculate the exact correct bank turnover and expected annual return, but now I cannot. I am still sure they are incorrect though. I hope you understand what I mean now. Correct me if I am wrong.

OP, have you tired 1btc investment on dadice house?

Dadice is the new and reliable dice site, we can invest their house there, house is big enough, about 600 BTC bankroll. You can earn profits there, just click my signature to play and invest!  ;)  I wanna see dadice will be listed on your site.

All figures are updated and I have made some improvements to the table :)


• Win88 no longer take house bank investment and did not have any way for me to check how my investment was performing, as such they are no longer a candidate for this table and I withdrew my investment witch was performing handsomely, returning over 50% in 7 months.

• We are now using virtual bank to calculate bank turnover and expected annual return where applicable (PRC and BitDice). This (and the lack of action at dicenow) brings the average expected annual return, not accounting for any scams or problems, to a very modest 7.09%. Less than you would make margin lending at Bitfinex, however if you did not invest in dicenow, it comes up to 21% and you could leverage up your kelly multiplier at PRC and BitDice to further increase your expected annual return.

• Rough fortnight on bitdice with our investment dropping from ฿1.058 to ฿1.046. House bank has fallen from ฿1239 to ฿1087 perhaps due to the lack luster investment results of 8% per year and people moving some coins to dadice.

• Dicenow house bank has plummeted from ฿988 to ฿599, probably for the same reasons as above. This would be good for the remaining investors except that there is almost no betting happening there...



Why would I think it has anything less than a 33% chance of exit scamming? I have not seen so much excitement about a new dice site since dice.ninja and dadice has exactly the same opportunity and incentive to exit scam as they did. How is it different? Could it not be literally the same people?

Speaking of bitcoin dice investment scams we have mad a page about exactly that and preventing it. Most of you in this thread know the risks but this is also for n00bs who are considering it for the first time.

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/bitcoin-dice-investment-scams/

Let me know if I got anything wrong or what you agree or disagree with :)

I've got a bit of a hang over but this is a topic that interests me.
Thanks for this.
I will take a good look at this when I'm feelinh better :D

Thanks for the update. So what are your thoughts on DaDice?
-Peerbet team

Far too new for people to risk investing IMHO.

Also the hype in the forum seems to be mostly from paid accounts/shills and even multi accounts.

If you check their bets they already have 75 million in a very short time but the average bet is only a few satoshis.

They also have a weird bug that I reported soon after they opened. Watch the bets as they come in, after a few the bet id resets to an id you will have seen a few seconds before but the username, time etc changes.

They said they are next gen and revolutionary but from what I see they are not doing anything even different from Prime Dice, BitDice or any the other top sites. Which is fine but it makes the claims from all the shill accounts even more obvious.

I'd say wait another 6 months and then make a decision.

Disclaimer: I run the most trusted Bitcoin Dice site (most coins held by any site) but I have closed investment to new accounts so it's not like I am looking to stop people investing elsewhere so they can invest at Pocket Rockets Casino instead.

OP doesn't seem to trust them too much:


Can't blame him. They've created a lot of hype which brings back bad memories of dicebitco.in and diceninja. But that may just be their aggressive marketing style (and probably is just that). But it's always best to wait at least few months before investing anything significant in the new sites.

On the other note, PRC is listed for sale:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1043483.0

Although Dean is not desperate:


Any takers?

All figures are updated party people  :)

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

Peerbet keeps roaring along with a big increase in profit and house bank.

Bitdice is down, has not been down for long and funds are still in the public cold storage address so no reason to worry about exit scam yet but still a bad user experience.

I might pull out of Dicenow as no one is betting there which gives me all the negatives of being in a house bank, like not being able to use those funds and counterparty risk but none of the advantages like return on investment. What do yall reckon?


Seems like just another dice site to me. Not sure what they think the mean by "next generation"

Hah! Funny post. We'll see what happens.

Go Peerbet and Thanks for your support all!

Also I would leave all sites you can on, at least with a virtual investment. Just for comparison.

Just pull it out. It's supposed to be an investment, but if there's no activity - it's not an investment, it's just deposit.

What are your thoughts on adding SafeDice instead (if you're familiar with them at all)? They've been around for some time and growing nice and steady (with no hype, campaigns etc) with whales popping in from time to time (attracted by 0.5% HE variable).

All fiigures are updated party people http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

All sites profit rose slightly excep peerbet which dropped for the first time in a long time.

All sites house bank rose excep dice now.

Oh remember when Ice Dice ripped me and all the investors of in an exit scam (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=826466.msg10238271#msg10238271)? At the time I emailed admin asking for the BTC1.007 investment back and they finally got back to me


 ???

Thanks for your word, i need a good dice or betting site with investor program. you can add a minimum btc for invest in every site?

Wow, it took him 6 months to came up with this?


It's best to check for yourself, min investments (if any) can change pretty often, so OP doesn't know much more than you do.

I know PRC have increased their min investment limit to BTC0.1 some time ago and I'm not even sure whether new accounts are allowed to invest.

I reckon other sites have no minimum or very low (peerbet: 0.0001).

Its so low its not worth considering, I think it's BTC0.001 at the most. Pocket Rockets Casino might be an exception as they are trying to discourage investments but generally any amount will do.

New update. Oh my god! Wow!! AMAZBALLS!!! CHECK THIS OUT!!!!  :D

http://www.bitcoin-dice-guide.com/dice-investment-comparison/

Lots of action at PRC in the last few weeks. Bump in profit and big increase in turnover and house bank from BTC3188 to BTC3878. I saw there was a whale betting huge I guess he lost pretty big, as long as theymos is having fun with the forum funds I guess ;) Actually who do we think the whale was?  

For the first time in months there was some action on dicenow, increase in turnover and house bank, profit down a bit.

For somewhere that reportedly gets a lot of action bitdice profit has been incredibly flat for incredibly long. Get your tin foil hats if you like.

Happy bitcoining!

Not sure why but I am unable to read the whole table. I have tried using Firefox and Chrome, but I got the the same result.


Are you talking about Peerbet or PRC here?

Thanks for telling me. Do you mean the far right of the tables goes off the screen? If so I am on to it. If something else what do you see?


Uh you're right, I need some sleep, edit made and thanks again.

Bitcoin Betting Guide you can suggest my a secure dice site for invest , better if is in bitcoin ?
Secure for me, is when the dev not close a site and go with all money. I have invest in just-dice, but is only for clam coin. And you know one betting site to invest ?

It's always up to you to make your own judgement on whether the site is secure and trustworthy or not.

I think they are already saying it in the title "Peerbet now best investment!"
Still, you have your own mind, so try to catch the best investments available in the markets.

Hi all, OP here. I change the name and address of the old Bitcoin Betting Guide to Bitedge. Full details here https://bitedge.com/blog/introducing-bitedge-the-improved-bitcoin-betting-guide/

I have only just realised Peerbet take their 7% commission from investors at the time of withdrawal not in real time or weekly like other sites do. As such I have constantly overstated the Peerbet return by 7% but I have now corrected that.

PRC dice has stopped investment so they have been changed to a static result. They gave an annualized return of 75% so we have to say well done and good luck in the future.

10 months after we started I would say it’s a pretty sorry looking table. We have had 3 exit scams and 3 retirements (dicebitco.in is the one that is not shown). It seems the prime of Just Dice was the prime of dice investment in general, only a trustless system would get me excited again and get me to consider further investment. Here is the table https://bitroll.com/house-bank-investment-guide/dice-investment-comparison/

tyvm for doing all of this through the months, been fun to follow

How did you get the bank turnover for Peerbet as 1 day? Their total wagered seems to have only increased by 30 btc in the past 2 weeks according to the graph on http://dicesites.com/peerbet

Great list, looks like its time to invest.

PRC is still running with investment at the moment. Just not accepting new or allowing top ups.

What I see is 3 out of 9 sites ended as a scam, and OP has an overall -21.27% loss in the past 10 months. Are you looking at the same figure as I am lol?

Shoot your right, I must of misread or mistyped a figure. Updated thanks.

Just a reminder I (Bitedge) am the OP (Bitcoin Betting Guide)

The big news in bitcoin dice since the last update is that the biggest and most trusted name in bitcoin gambling, Nitrogen Sports, now has an excellent dice product, reviewed here

https://bitroll.com/bitcoin-dice-reviews/

I think it looks great and what sets it apart is the overall quality of the operator with a long history of trouble free honest service where you get instant deposit and withdrawals and share your balance with the excellent sportsbook and poker games.

It’s a shame there is no investment or auto betting bot and I don’t like how you have to scroll up and down between the betting interface and your own bet results but overall I think it’s the best bitcoin dice option, although if you are a real dice only purist not in the US or Australia PrimeDice might still be best.

This is a milestone update for the bitcoin dice investment comparison

https://bitroll.com/house-bank-investment-guide/dice-investment-comparison/

It has been 1 year since we invested! It has been a terrible year for the bitcoin dice investment scene; with many scams, the best dice sites to play on not having house bank investment, the return of JustDice happening with an altcoin instead of bitcoin and no progress or innovation in producing the much needed trustless model for house bank investment.

The downward trend continues with 2 of our 3 remaining operators house bank shrinking (BitDice stayed the same). The headline result is that in 1 year of diversified investment in bitcoin dice house banks we lost 32.46%. A more careful investor would have had a better result but not enough to make it worth the risk, and an investor who is truly careful would not invest in any bitcoin dice house banks anyway.

Bitcoin dice house bank investment is dead for now and only a trustless implementation can bring it back to life.

You missed a huge opportunity here https://www.moneypot.com/investment

Investors basically having a field day.

3 sites going bust out of 8. Not good at all.
Gambling at sites seem to have better odds than investing in gambling sites.

It's not entirely surprising though - given the fact that there is little to no accountability this is something the con artists are more than happy to do. Honestly I'm more surprised there aren't more dice sites trying to prey on people. Most of these sites are happy to exist for a year or so and go for the long con to eventually scam - although I do agree it is a sad state of affairs.

imo, having the same investment across all sites isn't a good idea.

Do the math and find the best investments (ROI). Consider how secure the investment is. Allocate a portion of the portfolio considering both of them (additionally consider the growth rate too). Review and make changes to the portfolio kind of every 2 weeks or so.

I have invested in 3 sites, all doing pretty good. Around 0.2% daily ROI estimate. Lost some because of CLAM price crashing, but still holding on for a couple of months.

This is for example, how I plan to make my portfolio.
Site %
secret dice site  45%
BitDice.me        30%
Other major sites (MP, JD (high risk), etc.) 10%, 10% and 5%.

Diversifying your dice portfolio is not the way to go.

Stick with Just-dice.

It is the same but if you mean safe means get profit and you will not lose then you are wrong, investing everywhere has a risk of losing and that in moneypot there are many new investor pilling up now so your stack will get lower if you dont have a large stack


Just - dice has been doing good but the volatility because of the sell pressure is the main problem now

I got my bid in at around .001 BTC per.

It's best to claim your free coins if possible from your old BTC, LTC or DOGE wallets.  (see my signature for a easy way to see if your addresses qualify)

Purchasing to invest over there isn't required.

Right, this real life investment comparison (https://bitroll.com/house-bank-investment-guide/dice-investment-comparison/) is meant to give people information to help them do exactly that, or whatever strategy they want to try.

i am really sorry for the huge loss. now den i saw this thread. as it can see, casino is sure making money due to house edge but the problem is there is no government or law backing. so investors are hugely at risk for getting all their btc stolen and never be returned. The ROI can be quite attractive at first too but it will also decrease when times go due to lesser bets(more casino) and more investor(less %).