Bitcoin Forum

hello,

New blog article regarding Coinapult, Graph Analysis and Privacy. (http://blog.bluemeanie.net/2014/10/why-coinapult-is-threat-to-your-privacy.html)

must read if you use Coinapult and you are interested in privacy aspects.

Here's a conspiracy theory for you. What if data collection was a secret condition of the SEC plea agreement. Nah, why would someone that renounced his U.S. Citizenship care about the SEC.

Voorhees renounced US citizenship?

Was there any public indication of such a plea bargain?

according to his statements Voorhees either doesn't understand the security implications here, or doesn't admit to them.

Supposedly

The plea deal was a little "light" in my opinion.

Hum, you accuse his company and he doesn't "understand" the problem. Funny that.

sure is.  The problem is not only is it a problem for anyone who enters in THEIR bitcoin/email/sms but for whomever they may SEND it to!

also note that in Panama there are ZERO consumer protections for ID material, ie. Erik Voorhees can do what he wants with the information- sell it, use it, anything.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JimlBTk94RU/VEVc6LC0REI/AAAAAAAAAGo/7nKPRb-ZCVc/s1600/Selection_617.png (http://blog.bluemeanie.net/2014/10/why-coinapult-is-threat-to-your-privacy.html)

The OP is full of FUD. Blockchain.info, Coinbase, and many other wallets also allow users to VOLUNTARILY send bitcoin via email address and text message. As this is entirely voluntary and the information given by the user is absolutely required to complete the transaction, it is hardly a secret.

As far as Panamanian consumer protection laws, we hold ourselves to a higher standard of privacy than any government. Panama at least doesn't REQUIRE companies to violate consumer privacy like the US and other countries do. Ask Coinbase, Circle and other US-based services about that, if you are concerned about the security of your information.

translation: you have no protections.  and...

if you send someone bitcoin using Coinapult you :

1) reveal a connection between that email address and your bitcoin address

2) reveal a connection between the recipient email address and their bitcoin address(es)

3) this correlations can be cross referenced to other databases that increase the accuracy of identification X 1000 or more.


this isn't FUD.  This is a real hazard for Coinapult (http://blog.bluemeanie.net/2014/10/why-coinapult-is-threat-to-your-privacy.html) users.

We never claim to maintain anonymity between email addresses and bitcoin addresses. We claim to allow users to send Bitcoin via email. There is no way to provide such a service without connecting bitcoin addresses to email addresses. We are very clear to our users about this, and they choose to use our service for the convenience. Users who wish to have a greater degree of privacy can choose to simply not use our email feature.

Yes. Short of emailing someone a private key, Bitcoin does not work via email. It has its own protocol, which is not shared with email.

so you're saying there is no way to email someone bitcoin without submitting your email address to a centralized service such as Coinapult?

If you have a way to do it that doesn't expose private keys, please do tell. This is how Blockchain.info, Coinbase, Circle, and all other wallets I am aware of work. Here is a screenshot from Blockchain.info's wallet:

https://i.imgur.com/wyvLp6R.png

I've heard good things from friends about coinapult. I just looked through the site and it looks to me like they don't demand the kind of information that would compromise a user's privacy. They provide tools. Obviously if someone doesn't care about their privacy it's easy to use the tools in a way that leaks information.

That said, I will admit I was a little disturbed that the following link seems to be broken (for me at least):

https://coinapult.com/privacypolicy (https://coinapult.com/privacypolicy)

Thanks for pointing this out! This doesn't work as a link it appears, as the policy is displayed as a modal using Javascript. If you click on "Privacy Policy" in the footer, it should work. We'll fix this anyway, in case people send each other links.

The privacy policy is a dead link. LOL

That's rich!

whups.


https://i.imgur.com/jrx5IS3.png

Ah, I see. I saw it as a link while reading the Terms of Service. You're right that it appears when clicking on "Privacy Policy" in the footer.

the fact is you are given NO guarantees here.

these sorts of databases are marketable information.  So be careful what youre really spending when you're using a "free service".

Why are you singling out Coinapult? This is equally true of Circle or Coinbase, and many other hot wallets. This product has its role in the marketplace and not intended for you.

Circle and Coinbase let you send bitcoin to an email/sms address?

Circle takes your Credit Card information, which is far more sensitive than email address.

Do you even use Bitcoin, or do you just troll? We pointed this out both on Twitter and earlier in this thread, including screenshots. Also, what happened to all of your challenges a moment ago about sending bitcoin via email without a centralized service?

well Circle is a US company and your information is protected by US Federal law(true for any Credit Card processor).  Not so for Panama-based Coinbase.

so you're basically pointing fingers at Circle and Coinbase saying that they are just as bad with their security?

Bitcoin is not an US currency. Why on earth global users will trust the Fed ?

I think this is the real difference of opinion. Some people place trust US Federal Law. Some of us (especially non-US citizens?) would rather trust organizations that don't ask us for sensitive information.

in this situation though it's a call between trusting the US Govt(subject to congress, etc.) and trusting Erik Voorhees and his employees.

WTF are you talking about? The FBI and NSA are actively storing all emails and transactions despite any 4th amendment protections you may assume you have. I don't trust any government with this data, but would much rather have it stored in some Panamanian data center for a few days rather than in Utah for 100 years.

Even if you were so naive as to assume they don't make mistakes and only have good intentions, all those backdoors, exploits,  and data collection can be used by a corrupt employee or compromised by an outside hacker. You are not safer and much less secure because of this behavior.

Former NSA analysts are even defecting it is so bad in the US:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s976iyaO39A

Please do a bit more research before spreading FUD.

you would rather have your personal id information including Bitcoin activity in some private database in panama that can be freely marketed to ANY PARTY?

can you please explain the logic here?

You are creating a false dichotomy. I would rather have neither, but if I was forced to choose I would prefer it to be stored by a bunch of anarchists and libertarians in Panama for a limited time vs a datacenter in Utah for 100 years. Libertarians are far less likely to kill or steal from you than a government which institutionalizes that behavior.


Watch the video I sent you to get a picture of how this data will be mined against you in the future.

If Coinapult ever goes out of business, your information will be auctioned off.  Most likely it will end up in either a major conglomerate or the US govt + profit for those who own the database.

You think this is positive?  this sounds like shilling to me, like you're trying to fool regular users into thinking a certain way.

I doubt how many regular user actually send bitcoin by email. The function itself destroys the whole purpose of bitcoin. Voorhees might provide us some data about the no. of users who has used email on Coinapult. And bluemeanie1 can give us the data that how many pageviews he has received on his blog after creating this topic ;)

No, I have always directed users to use bitcoin p2p and avoid hot wallets. I am an avid supporter of greater privacy with wallets like the dark wallet and tools like coinjoin , coin shuffle and stealth addresses. I have never done business with coinapult, and have accounts with circle and coinbase where I never store any funds within and simply use them as on ramps and off ramps. I am merely pointing out you are spreading misleading information.... probably because you are either a troll of your politics are antagonistic towards Eric as I can see....


http://blog.bluemeanie.net/2014/10/what-is-neoliberalism-few-notes-on.html

The entire purpose of Coinapult is to enable users to send bitcoin by email or SMS.

that's an interesting way to end a discussion that shows your viewpoints are actually anti-privacy and anti-individualism.

I first heard of coinapult when they implemented locks.

bluemeanie1 - We've had some fun on Twitter, but now you are just being obnoxious.

Point 1) You're full of misinformation. I haven't worked at Coinapult since January of this year, and I never renounced US citizenship.

Point 2) Coinapult is providing the service as advertised. Coinapult needs an email address to send Bitcoin to an email address (scandalous, I know). If a user is uncomfortable revealing an email address, then she is very welcome not to use this tool. Coinapult also has a website, and if a user doesn't want her IP address logged in the web browser, she is welcome to not use the website also. If you, in your productive brilliance, have a way to send Bitcoin to an email address without collecting the email address, then go start a company and compete with Coinapult. But I think you won't do that, you'll just spew FUD anonymously on an online forum.

Point 3) Every company in the world has valuable information about it's users. The fact that Coinapult could become evil and sell user data is not unique - you could make that claim about any company (but you wont... evidence that your crusade is not borne of a legitimate concern for the security of users so much as it is a personal vendetta against me).

Coinapult requests significantly less private information than other Bitcoin companies, and would never jeopardize a reputation earned over years of hard work just to make a quick buck selling information.

You are trying to vilify me (not sure why) and then spread FUD about Coinapult because I have a connection to that company. Half a dozen Bitcoin companies enable transactions to email, yet you single out Coinapult under the pretense that Panama doesn't have government-mandated consumer protection rules? Guess what, quite a few Bitcoiners prefer the security and promises of private individuals and organizations instead of the security and promises of governments.

Go build something.

They expanded their feature set, but initially it was a service that allowed people to send bitcoin to an email address or SMS number.  SMS is even more volatile information than email.

Holy shit.... look at your post and trust history!

You are either bat-shit crazy or an annoying troll. Either way I'm going to take your advice, end the discussion and block you altogether.

please Erik, I'm not trying to vilify you.  My posts are 100% about security problems with Coinapult.  Someone mentioned above that you renounced your American citizenship.  That person is wrong.  

Do you think the information on bitcointalk.org is accurate?

ps. awesome forum avatar https://bitcointalk.org/useravatars/avatar_12149.png

read more about why this user is so mad and can't contain his furious anger : http://blog.bluemeanie.net

When purchasing physical goods online, do you have an issue with providing the retailer your shipping information?

Read: http://bit-post.com/top-influential-bitcoiners-to-follow-on-twitter/

in the case of major retailers there are laws about what they can do with that data.

Coinapult has no such restrictions.  They don't believe in laws at all actually.  You can read Erik's tweets about that.

THANKS!  Erik what do you say to this?   Internet hearsay?

https://i.imgur.com/wm3MUQk.png

Looks like your posts aren't 100% about security problems with Coinapult.

And I already answered the question. I did not renounce US citizenship, and can confirm the US Federal Government is still stealing my property and using it to kill and imprison peaceful people.

How would you know if a major retailer is violating their country's laws and selling your information anyway?

Coinapult's privacy policy states they will not share a user's personal information with any third parties without consent. Why do you think they are dishonest? Or do you just have a personal vendetta against Erik and/or Coinapult?

E-commerce privacy laws are fairly complex.  You can be sure major retailers like Amazon or Overstock adhere to them.

Financial privacy and disclosure laws are even MORE complex.  You can be sure American companies adhere to them.  You can NOT be sure that eg. Swiss or Panamanian companies adhere to them.

US and Germany arguably have the most extensive consumer protection laws in this area.  So if you want a safe transaction, go with a US or German based E-commerce firm.

So why single out Coinapult, is there something about them specifically that makes you think they are dishonest? Obviously they are not the only e-commerce based firm outside of US or Germany.

I'm not singling out anyone.

Voorhees is a major vocal opponent of Bitlicense- this tends to give some background to his statements.

Someone could move to NYC, build a similar service to Coinapult where users don't have to be concerned about the owners wholesaling their private data.

Sure you are, the thread title, main post and blog you linked are all about Coinapult. If the issue is with all e-commerce firms outside of US and Germany, why focus on one specific company?

There are many services that will not allow customers to enjoy the same level of anon that many bitcoin users tend to want and enjoy.

The reality is that companies are going to have to disclose they did business with you if the amount transacted is large enough

I would trust Coinapult more than Coinbase for the
very reason that Coinbase is under the jurisdiction
of the good ol US of A.
 

you would trust a Panamanian jurisdiction over an American one?

http://www.panama-guide.com/index.php?topic=drugs

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/52a24bd16da811766ba704ce/image.jpg

And where do you think all that cocaine is heading?

The United States government is the biggest threat to privacy by far.
That's why people like Edward Snowden are heroes.

Rick James (http://blog.bluemeanie.net/2014/10/dopecoin-is-bittrex-now-drug-dealer.html)?

'Murica, The Land of The Free. Where the government respects individual rights so much, they force American companies to violate foreign privacy laws. How does the German government feel about the privacy they have with American companies?

http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2014/0627/Germany-moves-to-kick-out-Verizon-citing-concerns-of-US-spying (http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2014/0627/Germany-moves-to-kick-out-Verizon-citing-concerns-of-US-spying)


How about those American companies? Do they think these laws protect their customers, or are they closing down or moving to protect their users?



http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/09/lavabit-email-edward-snowden-shuts-down (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/09/lavabit-email-edward-snowden-shuts-down)

https://i.imgur.com/b8Ttm2O.jpg (http://blog.bluemeanie.net/2014/10/why-coinapult-is-threat-to-your-privacy.html)