Bitcoin Forum

We all have different definition and perception of freedom. There is no unified "definition" on which everyone agrees. Even if there would have been one then it would have been end of freedom. Pardox!

They say, "Bitcoin is your key to financial freedom. Freedom from corrupt government etc etc etc."

Have you ever thought about your definition of freedom? That is tough question to be answered in real life. At least you can try to define your definition of freedom for money/finance. What it is?

Example: I like freedom of sending money to any part of world without being dependent on anyone. I like holding my money on own etc.

Please, stop and think for a moment as this question is raised to brainstorm 'your' definition of "financial freedom" rather than accepting something actively propagated by organization and people with vested interest.

Freedom is the ability to do whatever the hell you want so long as it doesn't physically hurt or criminally deprive anyone else of wealth or property.

Freedom is free from initiation of force and violence. The amount of freedom can thus be measured based upon an individuals and their societies respect for the non-aggression principle.

Unfortunately, suggesting as much in today's society is met with derision by many individuals inculcated with statist propaganda. There is nothing extreme about the Non aggression principle, as it is merely a more thoughtful derivation of the golden rule. We aren't trying to impose our beliefs upon anyone and are perfectly happy if you want to create a communist or socialist society with consenting adults and use Bitcoin as an instrument to assist your endeavors. We wish that others would permit the same respect towards us as well.


Bitcoin is merely an open source protocol that you could choose to use , not use , or modify at any moment. How could it possibly be intruding upon your freedom?

"Free from initiation of force."

What if that force feeds based on my weakness? What is that force is targeted specially for specific "IQ" and target audience? Because once they're conquered rest would be cake walk.

Can psychological forces be defined as intrusion of freedom?

Freedom is the absence of force.

OMG! Then Bitcoin is totally opposite of FREEDOM. It is a force that we find impossible to resist once we understand what Bitcoin is.

OOPS!

Can deceiving someone into doing something based on their weakness your with one's intelligence can be defined as crime?

We do not exist in a state of absolute freedom and wishing for such is an effort in futility. We are constrained by the laws of nature and biology.

The Non Aggression Principle does indeed cover psychological coercion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion

Which has specific legal and philosophical definitions.

You will have to be more specific with your questions and define what you mean by "psychological forces" with an example.

Freedom is a high mountain that we can never reach top of it. Today when we say "freedom" we mean the path which goes to that mountain.
We can't get freedom together but we can get closer. If theres a one man on world without other living beings(animals,bugs,humans) that man is free.
So its pointless to define what is freedom for everyone. Everyone has their own freedom definition.

Bitcoin is freedom from a corrupt and unfair monetary system. Clearly the money should not be issued by those who can just print more of their own volition.

Wut? Can you rephrase that? Are you on about defrauding someone out of money? If so, then yes that is a crime. You've deprived them of wealth via criminal dishonesty.

Psychological forces that feeds on my weakness:
1. Greed- In any form material or knowledge
2. Contribution: We all wish to contribute in one or other way. No matter tiny judgement we pass but we wish to contribute what if "that's weakness" and can be exploited? Thinking about thousand of charity company and people donating there.
3. Change: We all believe our learning is good, better or best and we wish to bring change in society according to our perception.

Freedom has nothing to do with law/crime.

I'm sorry for my english skills. I'll rephrase again:

If you deceive someone into doing something by exploiting their weakness (with your intelligence) be defined as crime?

It those can de categorized as crime then most important question-- how can such crime can be proved to be crime?

In reality we are all free to do whatever we want.

And some people choose to use that freedom to oppress others because they can (or because they think it is right, or to get more power).

It all comes down to who has the most power. The most powerful can do whatever they want but are also often not free because in order to maintain that power they have to restrain themselves for fear of losing that power. This is how it has been throughout history.

LOL! Law is circumference  and what happends beyond that is crime and freedom forms core of that circle and you say it has nothing to do. Confused!
If Freedom has nothing to do with law/crime then, freedom has no connection with finance also. Contemplate it! Money curbs freedom more than anything else.

Bitcoin is not FREEDOM Q.E.D

freedom= no permission

I can smoke marijuana and that would be considered a crime as it is against the law.  A police officer can exert force against someone smoking marijuana because it is a crime. This is not freedom.

You can have finances without law.  

You're free to murder and steal from people, but that encroaches on other people's freedom and you should be punished fairly for it as you've likely given up your own freedom in doing so.


Well that depends. If you challenge someone to a bet at a chess match and they lose then fair enough, but if you take advantage of someone by defrauding them then that's a crime. I don't understand the second sentence.

You are assuming those are weaknesses. If you think these psychological forces are preventing your freedom than you are abstracting freedom to such a degree it becomes impractical.

Yes, reality isn't fair and some people a born with greater talents and skills, some are born in better environments, and some happen to get lucky with circumstances within their life.

This is unavoidable, and many of the solutions to create a more egalitarian society actually have a negative outcome.

Do you have a specific example instead of generalizing so we can discuss specifics as to what you are referring to.

That's why the laws need an overhaul. Every rational person knows smoking marijuana shouldn't be a crime and nobody should be arrested for any victimless 'crime'. You can't punish people for something that doesn't hurt anyone else.

Shifting the seats on the Titanic make no difference.

Most people do not understand freedom and are happy being slaves.

So Bitcoin evangelist must stop their marketing campaign of 'selling freedom in form of financial tool'. We already have our needed freedom.

If someone with higher intelligence negotiates a contract or agreement with someone with lower intelligence and they do not lie or misrepresent the service/product than the less educated person should have the right and freedom to make that decision even if it isn't in their best interests. It should not be considered a crime but this incident does not exist within a vacuum as there will be a certain degree of social justice by others against the asshole that took advantage of the helpless idiot.


I still have no idea what you are talking about . Give us some specific examples.

To answer OP's question of what is 'Financial Freedom':

Financial freedom is the ability to trade among others in a voluntary way.

Bitcoin allows such freedom to exist.

Its not that, I don't wish to explain or hide from you. You might be well aware of fact that sub-concious mind knows more and better than concious mind. And my sub-concious mind at very first meeting with Bitcoin gave hint that--this is more that what it claims to be. I started digging it..and now I ultimately think it as psywar waged by developed countries. Let it be! I need to understand myself better and crystallize concepts before raising question and having arguments.

Sincere apologies!

Beautiful thought!
I've accepted challenge  almost 1 year ago. Only problem with camel, knight, elephant etc is all they can see is their square not chess board, not two players, not bet between two players. Nevermind!

Solider deserves solider.
And economic solider deserves economic solider.

This does not follow as the war has already been won by the "developed" countries. They already control the rules and were the gatekeepers before bitcoin was created. All bitcoin does is sidesteps their sovereignty. If you are insinuating that the large stakeholders are part of the wealthy controlling elite furthering their will against the third world you are factually wrong as many of the early bitcoin adopters are Nouveau riche and come from anarchist /libertarian backgrounds. You don't have to use bitcoin if you think the early stakeholders are unfairly from "developed" countries, why don't you create indiacoin and have stakeholders from India adopt it instead?

The beauty of Bitcoin is that it is open source and free. Unlike with fiat, you are free to participate or not, and fork it at any moment you choose to.

Creating Indiacoin is not a big deal. Securing network, making people adapt etc are challenges. How can I come up with better marketing than 10,000 coins for pizza? How can I develop different phases and propaganda? How can have resources? How can I have "networking agents"? How am I gonna resist network attack with 100's of pentahash ready to destroy my network.

Its impossible. But, I'm constantly thinking about and seems like I've a solution. Would like to discuss it but couldn't find appropriate place because open brain is vulnerable to distortion. Its okay if my theory, my assumptions all are wrong. I or my people or my country can't afford me to be right.


They say, "resistance is futile."

Marshall McLuhan, the orignal techie, has reminded us, "There is absolytely no inevitability as long as there is willingness to contemplate what is happening."

Just waiting for right place and people!

If you cannot even discuss it than just come back to us when you are confident enough to present your ideas.


I was hoping that you were going to refute my "Tongue-in-cheek" comment about Indiacoin but it appears you are serious about it. I humbly ask of you to reflect upon your tribalism and nationalism and the harm these instincts create across humanity.

I'm confident enough from long time but what sense its makes. Why am I so much bothered about my country? Finally, I've started reflecting about issues like "nationalism" and "tribalism" with aim of manuring indifference lying somewhere within me.

Chuck debate and hail Bitcoin!
I'm gonna buy few in 2016. I couldn't resist "force of freedom" any more, In fact, I'm willing to give up my freedom now. Almost ready because I've realized core of problem- Education. I'm gonna focus there. 

Freedom is dream and hope, but when you get more freedom, others will have less freedom, unless the space and resource are unlimited

This is especially true for some psychological demand: If everyone want the freedom to dominate the world, then there will be wars everywhere  ;D ;D If everyone want to live without working then there will be no one working

"Be Excellent to each other"

all problems solved

Station.

Not having to choose cheaper food, having a car and house, going 2-3 times a year for at least 10 days somewhere, working 6 hours, 5 weekdays. Actually, technology made it already possible for everyone in the world - it's the banksters who fucked us up.

Definition justifies your signature-Beyond Imagination. It was beautiful definition of Freedom as it helped me think on another tangent. so there is not absolute definition of freedom. Right?

Bankster or greedy human? I see pharmaceuticals equally responsible as banker.

It's about not having to submit personal info to be a part of a global market.

That's the socially responsible standard definition of freedom that applies to any area.

There's nothing to be added to this definition in case of financial freedom. Just be able to do what you want with your money without harassment from an authority. That's all.

ya.ya.yo!

Freedom is a choice, but with choice comes responsibility.
That's why there are those who like watching movies and those who like playing games.

On the practical note, there is a project that can contribute greatly towards the freedom of humanity in the future. It's a completely open ISA called RISC-V from Berkeley and a series of open processor designs developed in India called Shakti. Google it. The barriers for entry into hardware design are getting lower, and I thought that bitcoiners might be interested.

again people are missing the point entirely.

freedom=no permission

now put that description into all your analogies of true freedom and you will see what i mean.

rights are not a freedom.. rights are a reminder of SOME of your freedoms.
for instance the right to remain silent. or the right to free speach

it is not something the government has given you. if you want to stay silent, or talk then its your god damned own mouth...
you dont need other peoples permission to tell you what to do with YOUR mouth. you can talk or you can stay quiet.

just because the government remind you of what your biologically capable of doing, does not make them the authority over it.

freedom = no permission. its as simple as that

no one can tell me or stop me from doing what the hell i like with bitcoins, thus bitcoins is financial freedom.

I expressly forbid you from sending any to the address in my sig  :P  ;D

Wait.  Isn't government a group of people?  Isn't defining freedom as the centre of a circle of law simply "accepting something actively propogated by organization and people with vested interest."?

Having enough to do what I desire and leave a smiling, satoshiless corpse.  ;)

That seems like definition borne after Bitcoin revolution. 

ok i just went through some dictionaries and google searches of what people deem to be freedom. and now i will point out what others think

"freedom" is different than "free" in regards to a free market, free choice free expression. many seem to believe that a freedom is a privilege given by authority of a society.

if a freedom is truely meant to be free. then a government cannot take your freedom away from you (prison) thus freedom should be separated from the term 'being free' because governments CAN take your freedom

so the term financial freedom is in their eyes an act/policy/rule 'allowing' and giving permission for people to do certain things with their finance. where as a free market or 'free use of finance' has no authority or rule.

though i still prefer to think of financial freedom as having no permission

It may be tough to spend the last satoshi dust in your wallet before you die.  :P

All but 2, need one on each eye for the ferryman... he's gone crypto now.

I know one thing that is not financial freedom, the 16th ammendment

Well "Financial Freedom" can mean a lot of things, it all depends on the context.

Personal financial freedom is having enough money to support the lifestyle you want for your entire life.

Financial freedom could aso mean having choices. Use banks or bitcoin to send money, for instance.

BTW there's been recent articles around to say that "money buys happiness, but only up to about 80,000 USD p/a", so we could presume that that means, you get enough to "be free" and do a lot of fulfilling things at 80K plus, and while you can do it with more bells and whistles on plusher carpets at much more than 80k, the core experience/satisfaction doesn't increase much, or that you don't get much "freer".

Taxing income is bad enough. What is annoying is that the leeches of society also want to start taxing wealth.

I like your answer :)

Maybe one of these days I get to experience 80k in my checking account haha

Even when they sell play stations at $90?

Wow haha So Target? I love Target...

Oh you mean Hotels for Dog's are just too much? (sarcasm)

I'm with you. The lesser of a negative impact to earth and others the better.

I did buy an iPhone 6 when it came out... am I evil?

Lol well I respect your point of view...

why am I a pretentious douche-ette?

Should I get a flip phone? Or that would turn me into a über Hypster-ette

And that is why there are no women on these forums hahaha... why do I need to be cute?

so, what kind of phone do you have?

Source?

I'm aware that Target Corporation was once under fire for sourcing cotton from Uzbekistan (a state which uses slavery to harvest cotton), an issue it's since taken steps to address (http://www.sourcingnetwork.org/the-cotton-pledge/).  I'm not finding anything similar concerning Target and Bangladesh.


Importance is subjective.  An American with a dog may well care more for it than for some unknown child of a distant land.  This preference would be apparent, for example, in their spending more money on the health and comfort of the pet than on the same for the child.  This is a common ethical position and is no less valid than your own.

Thanks for the info...  anything and anyone involved in consumism and capitalism will be involved in some sort of malign actions.

Well I could sell you an original star-tac and you could upgrade it with an arduino running a recompiled version of OpenVMS, then boast how you compose texts in vi.

I have no idea what you just said... There are at least 3 words I need to google lol

To have enough money to live from, give away some and do the things you like.

Simply from your use of the terms "selfishness" and "valuable to the world", we see that the conflict here is not in my failing to rank species, but in my assertion that valuing loved ones above strangers can be ethically sound, even when multiple species are involved.  It appears that you tend towards collectivism and have little tolerance for those who do not.

To avoid the 9-5 insanity.

You only eat cows you know? I'm getting confused now.

I only eat genetically engineered meat which wishes to be eaten:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niOm01dEzzI

Some days I am a vegetarian however, not for ethical reasons, but because I really hate plants and what they did to my mother. Fucking B12 deficiency almost took her life, and plants just sat on the table without any warning or obvious signs of distress cajoling her into thinking she wasn't killing lifeforms.

My asset wealth is my definition