Bitcoin Forum

All sarcasm aside, BFL have made many current customer's dreams....a NIGHTMARE.


AND THERE WE HAVE IT.....

So, what this means is, all of you mini-rig owners and multiple mini-rig owners, be prepared to pay an additional $15,000 for each upgrade unless you want your 25 GH rig to become a door stop once ASICs fully penetrate the market and leave you in the dust.

I am now done. Argue, fight...fuck, I really don't care, because I LOST NOTHING....
(and am laughing , as you can't see my face, so you will have to take my word for it)


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First off, I want to apologize to everyone who pointed out and said I was wrong, in regards to my previous SPECULATION(S)....
I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT and it all makes sense now.


SO..Get your BFL Orders in SOON ! ....while there is still product to be shipped. http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/
With BFL's 100% Trade-up Value Program, you have nothing to lose, but only gain.
http://www.butterflylabs.com/bitforce-sc-faq/

For those wondering, "What will I be able to do with my current BFL hardware ?", here it is.... just a few examples:

- Trade 1 old BFL Single for 4 new Jalapenos ($600 vs $600, 850 MH vs. 9 10.5 GH !)
- Trade 2 old BFL Singles in for 1 new ASIC Single and pay only $100 difference ! ($1,200 vs. $1,300, 1.7 GH vs 40 GH !)
- Trade 11 old BFL Singles in for 5 new ASIC Singles + 1 Jalapeno AND Pay only $50 difference ($6,600 vs. $6,650, 9.4 GH vs. 203.5 GH !)
- Trade 50 Old BFL Singles for 1 new ASIC Mini-Rig ($30,000 vs $30,000, 43 GH vs. 1TH !)
- Trade 2 old BFL Mini Rigs for 1 new ASIC Mini-Rig ($30,000 vs $30,000, 50 GH vs. 1TH !)

...but what am I telling people something they can figure out for themselves. You all know what the deal is, right ?
The TRADE possibilities would be ENDLESS ! - With little or NO MONEY involved !
Show your support for the company that strives to support YOU ! YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.

I personally can't wait for this Trade-Up program to commense...
IT WILL BE LIKE Christmas when it does (and I mean the FEELING, NOT the time of year).

Cheers,
bitlane.


PS> I am not affiliated with Butterfly Labs in any way. I am just providing this info, because I CARE.


For anyone who missed the day's events, please understand that this post is 7,000% PURE SARCASM
...(yes, Seven Thousand Percent)

Just got a response from Jody.  You have to put up 50% of the cost, the other 50% can be trade in.

Just fucking GREAT. 50%, or essentially 1:1 for equivalent hardware. This is CRAP.

I SHOULD be able to use the examples above, as everyone else told me in other threads.

This is just silly.

I should be able to trade 2 current Mini-Rigs @ $15,000 each ($30k total) STRAIGHT ACROSS for a new ASIC Mini-Rig @ $30,000.

You were right, I was wrong.  ;)

OH NO, we are NOT going to play THAT game....the 'who was right and who was wrong, game'.....

What's right is what's right and I have seen the light by all of the posters who said I was basically FULL OF SHIT and SPECULATING due to me using BASIC Business Practices.

I still think I was wrong.....and that is why I changed my tune  ::)

You guys that posted against me were all right. It was obvious from the start if you think about it. You guys run businesses, right ?

Bravo!  I had to post one of these earlier tonight.  Its a shame more people don't.

I was a FOOL to truly believe that every current owner would have to pay BFL 2x just to stay current/competitive once ASICs hit....

I should have used the same fucked up business sense that everyone else did.

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Thats pretty fucked up.

After spending the day arguing with people, I just decided to go along with them, regardless of how fucked up it looks in the OP.

People actually thought they would be able to do this !....some people have NO CLUE., so I just gave in.

How could I have been right ? ....saying people would HAVE TO PAY ATLEAST the difference, not trade in old for new straight across, like I posted in the OP.
I only used common sense, basic business principals and a bit of math.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that minirig earns MONEY FOR AT LEAST 5 MONTHS. You can calculate with your numbers but my spreadsheet says 12500$. So MR owners have to invest about 5000$ more max.

Right....you were the idiot that posted this...


You fall into that category of users on this forum who are complete fucking MORONS and have no clue.

Have fun stating the obvious and kissing BFL's collective ass.... I think you will be alone on that soon enough.

<EDIT>
...and speaking of jobs, I can't take someone seriously, who puts a donation address in their forum sig like a deadbeat...LOL

Perhaps YOU need a better job ?

You know what I think happened :

BFL saw your posts and decided to follow your business model instead of 1:1 swapping as before !

So we WILL be able to trade 50 current singles straight across without money involved, for a new ASIC Mini-Rig after all ?

That might actually be true. Looks like they can design HW but have no idea about PR or pricing their products or about anything else.

So ignoring any difficulty increase that might happen due to the new minirigs being shipped, someone receiving one of these pieces of hardware will have to save every satoshi they earn from it for the next 5 months, then spend that AND an additional $5000 in order to not have a piece of hardware that's only use is a doorstop? You're right, when I look at it that way it really does seem like a deal! Where do I sign up?

I didn't say that's a great deal. In reality that sucks. I just explained why upgrading is not 2xMR price like many of us claims. I calculated those numbers with $6/BTC and 1 800 000 dif. That should be pretty realistic.

I think I will just wait till I can get detailed information from BFL. Its like the matrix in here, its hard to discern what is real and what is not. Perhaps I should have taken the blue pill.

If this is how the trade-in plan will work, it seems reasonable to me. You can't expect BFL to bankrupt themselves just to meet the best case scenario wishes of miners. People who thought they could trade-in their singles straight for ASICs without giving BFL more money were being unrealistic (I thought this was Bitlane's basic point starting from a thread or two ago). A 50% trade-in plan were you get to keep your singles until the replacement is ready to ship is about as good as anything that could reasonably be expected. Sure, it sucks for miners who have used up all their capital on singles and have no more money to invest, but frankly that is their problem, not BFL's. If you are going to invest all your available capital, it is your job to do proper research first. And anyone who had done proper research should have known that FPGAs would be made obsolete by ASICs at some point. When ASICs do eventually arrive, you shouldn't invest all your capital in them either, since it is possible that Bitcoin might drop sha256. You shouldn't even be investing all your capital in Bitcoin - coins or mining - in the first place since it is, like all investments, risky. It's called diversification people - a basic principle of sound investing. 

I don't know if I believe this post since on the BFL press release it says very clearly ---

"Because our first and second generation equipment is expected to be outpaced very quickly by the new hardware, customers who have purchased earlier generation products will be able to trade them in at 100% of their value toward the purchase of SC-generation hardware."

It would be nice if BFL would come here and explain this in their own words rather than hear it from a 3rd party.

The quote from "Jody" is their own words, she is an employee of BFL.

Just like Matthew said : people stupid, money a lot, come quick.

DO you really think they could survive the ASIC fabrication without getting ANY new money from customers if the trade in was 1:1 ?

DO you really think ASIC is free ? You must think $ 1 000 000 = free for BFL ? Maybe BFL are the FED and can print money for free from China too !

Stop the trolling it is basically a 50% trade in. Forces everybody to double their investment if they wanna stay in the game.

All singles value is now $300 or less ...

I see, so I should just believe the 3 or 4 people on here that love to slam this company and could have easily set up a fake quote from a BFL employee rather than believe the actual press release given by the company itself.  Sure.  ;)

I like to bash BFL ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60586.msg975270#msg975270

Sure, I liked but you can say I too have seen the light like my buddy bitlane :D

do we really need enrich a company to build this thing ?

The two quotes are perfectly consistent. Under the 50% trade-in plan, you would be able to exchange earlier generation products at 100% of their value. But in order to do this you have to buy some new hardware too. So, if you buy four of the cup-warmers for $600, this gives you the option to get four more by trading in a single. By exchanging four cup-warmers for a single, you are exchanging the single at 100% of its value. So there is no reason to question the first quote in light of the second.  

You could be correct but I think I will wait from a response from BFL Engineer or until they update their site w/ the relevant info unless someone can point me to the thread where Jody has stated this. Even then I don't think I'll believe it until BFL gives an actual response to this trade in program allegation. I don't really care anyway, the trade in program won't affect me at all.

This will cause a very interesting second market to develop for singles.  Many big hitters will assign a certain price they are willing to pay for singles simply for the trade-in credit.  It will certainly be a discount, but not a massive one.  They will be treated as units of barter, and no longer as mining devices......should be fascinating to watch! 

They have been given ample opportunity to reply in public, as I have seen them all online, but they have avoided answering even the questions directed towards them in regards to this trade-up program.

The longer they can keep people 'in the fog' means more orders rolling in, meaning more future UPGRADE MONEY for them to receive from everyone once they sucker everyone in.

They have played their hand quite nicely and avoided the tough questions.

Just a little quote to the "miners" who thought that Bitcoin would be their way to get rich quickly:

Yes, because it requires a HUGE down-payment.

This is what we imagined in creating the trade in program.  The intent is to ensure anyone who has invested in our hardware is able to get their money back should they decide to upgrade or not.

With regards to the overall question of the trade in policy terms, Jody's response via email inquiry was correct.  We will have the full terms posted imminently, but the breakdown is simple.  You can trade a regular Single in towards the purchase of an SC Single, but you can't trade in two regular singles to get an SC Single.  I know people would rather do that, but it's not a working business model.  

Another win by BFL.

They could have completely screwed their customers and not offer any trade in so value of single with ASIC coming = maybe $10.

Now this basically ensures the value of the single is at least $300 which is excellent for some who are half way through paying off the unit and want to sell right now and stop gambling.

Is your calculator broken?

AND THERE WE HAVE IT.....

Since the trade in value is only 50% not 1:1 so 2 Singles cannot be swapped for a SC single but 1 single + 700 USD = one new SC single ?

Maybe my head is broken :D

Sweet, are you going to stop raising cain now? The past few days, half of the posts have been you bitching endlessly.

Tell me that I was right and I will run away and die a happy man.....

I never said you were wrong, I was just poking all your OCD buttons yesterday. ;D

The value of an old Single on the secondary market should continue to hover close to it's $599 purchase price minus shipping and any convenience costs of exchange with whoever wants to buy it in preparation to pick up his SC.  When we receive it towards the purchase of an SC, it will be accepted at it's full $599 value.

OCD ? ME ?....well, that's obvious...LOL

I feel like I have just exercised the demons..... This house is clear.

Fair enough, I admit my calculations were wrong.

Wow, I thought I was a bit more trusted here than that.  I don't love to bash BFL, and I'd never purposefully post something untruthful.

The trade in value is 100%.  But only 50% of the purchase price of any of the new miners can be old miners.  So yes, your calculator is broken.

I would expect previous-gen singles to hold their value quite well, even up to the point of first shipment of ASICs, at which point they may go for a slight discount (say, $450 to $500) to be used for $600 of trade in value on new SC miners.

So wait....

I can't just trade in either my 50 Singles for a new ASIC Mini-Rig ? or my 2 current Mini-Rigs for a brand new ASIC Mini-Rig ? ...WITHOUT any additional money ?

WTF ? Where's the 100% ! ? ! ?  ::)

This.  It will be like selling giftcards......people are willing to pay close to the value, but demand a discount to facilitate the exchange.  

swish...

LMFAO

EPIC!!!

the A-TEAM was my all time favorite show when I was a kid

The old hardware might even fetch a small premium over retail for a while, since you can mine on the old hardware until the new hardware is ready to ship. But of course as difficulty rises this benefit will diminish.

very interesting take.....I could completely see that happening. 

I'd never give your bitching ass the satisfaction

Kyle, I have a special task for you. Suck my c***!

Bitlane was right and that was pretty damn impressive. I say he has earned that internet detective batch.

whats a detective BATCH!?!?

I don't know, but I want one.

lol, for bitlane's sake, I hope it's a batch o' bitcoins.

Ummm, have we actually considered getting in contact with the A-Team?  They might be able to provide some leverage.

http://tmblr.co/ZMIp3vNoFWDT (http://tmblr.co/ZMIp3vNoFWDT)

The internet detective award goes too...

SWEET!!!!  :o

Thanks guys....I am honored.

I would like to thank:
1) My medication.
2) The Voices in my head and forces of good and evil at constant battle for control of my soul.
...and last but not least...
3) Butterfly Labs, for being such TWATS....

...Thank you.
bitlane.
Internet Detective

Bloody hell Bitlane, get on that ignore list already you gigantic douche.

I am somewhat concerned by this since I have a large order of singles that still have not been shipped to me. Basically it means in order to stay competitive the investment I had secured needed to be 50% larger then what I got. My order is not scheduled to arrive until late July or early August and that is only 2-3 months from when the ASIC product would come out.

With all things staying even that is like $100 a month per single without any kind of power costs taken into account. So while I guess you would maybe pay off half of the single if you did nothing but sell the coins to pay yourself back, you would still be $300 per single short of replacing them with the ASIC product.

Of course that is also if they ship in October, the price and difficulty stay the same, and there is a reasonable turn around time from when you order and turn off the singles and ship them to BFL before you get your replacement hardware. It would be pretty horrible if you order, and then turn off the singles/mini rigs you have to only wait 2 months or more to get the new ASIC.

I think if you could secure your order with a credit card they would ship you the entire shipment of ASIC products and once you get them you could send back the singles/rigs for a refund to the card. Maybe I missed it but it seems this trade in policy seems more clunky then it should be.

Personally I wouldn't be too worried. Most likely they will ship ASICs much later than October, and you can use your singles until they are ready to ship your ASIC order (at least that's what they have said). And if you don't have the $ to exchange all your singles, you shouldn't have any trouble selling some of your singles to raise cash. The singles should hold their value since they are good for a $599 credit toward the purchase of ASIC equipment.

Yeah I am not overly concerned just yet. Just concerned that I had the opportunity to get more cash, but I didn't because I didn't know that I would need the extra to upgrade.

So now I am off to try and find some spare change in the cushions so I can just order the ASIC outright when it hits their site.

The 100% is once you meet the policy's terms.    Yes you have to purchase more to upgrade but on the traded in singles or whathaveyou, you get 100% of the value of that unit.    I am glad for this clarification and that has now cleared up the last piece I needed to finish my Offering Statement for our IPO.    Regardless of my opinion which many of you have read, this is the reality and either you move forward or not.  I am moving forward and going to try this technology out from BFL.  I hope they have read through many of these debates and realize the influence they have and make it a level playing field for us even though they have the advantage on hardware.   Some idea on if they are going to stagger initial orders so let us have a smooth roll-out and ramp up, would be really helpful to all the miners out there.   Thanks

Dalkore

Can i pay AND ship my singles once the sc's are ready?

My fellow farmers and workers, we all should agree that companies like BFL should be doing all their R&D and labor out of the goodness of their hearts, rather than making any profit. Such is the will of the dialectic, comrades!