|
Title: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: adaseb on January 28, 2015, 12:12:20 AM Post if you got ROI for any mining equipment you bought. When did you buy it and when you got the ROI.
GPU Mining got me ROI in about 5-6 months when I started in January 2014. I assumed it would only take 1.5 months to break-even but all hell broke lose and difficulty jumped and BTC fell. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: timk225 on January 28, 2015, 03:43:06 AM Nobody ROI's with newly bought mining equipment anymore. Difficulty too high and price too low.
And people are stupid enough to not be able to math out the facts, and continue to buy ASICs. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: cozk on January 28, 2015, 04:05:01 AM Nobody ROI's with newly bought mining equipment anymore. Difficulty too high and price too low. And people are stupid enough to not be able to math out the facts, and continue to buy ASICs. Pretty much this. If you have money to ''invest'' just buy the BTC you'll end up with more BTC than if you mined. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: dropt on January 28, 2015, 06:55:16 AM I made a positive ROI on my B2 Gen 1 Avalon, was lucky enough to be in the initial "test" shipment.
I made a positive ROI on my numerous S1s purchased between Dec 2013 and Mar 2013. I finally recouped my initial (BTC) outlay on my S2s that I purchased in April of 2014. I'm still underwater on the power for probably another two months. I haven't purchased anything since. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: stonerider on January 28, 2015, 05:04:45 PM I've been a miner for about 3-4 months now and I've ROI'd on all my miners. In fact, I've made so much money, I just bought a castle in Spain!!! Ask me how via pm and I will show you, please include your name, address, social #, bank account, visa/mastercard info, drivers license, and your mother's maiden name.
Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: the joint on January 28, 2015, 05:09:56 PM I think you'll find that those who have paid for miners with fiat have had much more success getting >100% ROI. I always buy with fiat, and in several cases now it's made the difference between <100% ROI and >300% ROI.
Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: Corenin on January 28, 2015, 05:13:47 PM at current price i m not getting good ROI with mining but mining with hope of bitcoin price to riseup and it become profitable again, difficulty dropped this week and price also increased so expecting more return compared to last weeks
Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: bbxx on January 28, 2015, 09:40:17 PM i got mining roi on
6xbtbf s1 and mining/reselling on am be am beb am tube dragon ccd sp20 antminer u1,s1,s3 thunder war machine and more lost some on first am bebs :) if you recognize all miners from list you are not noob miner :) Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: xstr8guy on January 29, 2015, 12:43:24 AM I did very well on my Bitfury rigs, ASICMiner Blades, KNC Mercury (with additional modules) and early S1s.
I paid cash/credit only for the Original Neptune, the first few Bitfury cards and several ASICMiner Blades. I also had a bunch of the AM USB sticks. I put every Satoshi earned back into buying Bitfury H boards while they were shipping from stock. I also bought 3 S1s from the early batches. I had a positive ROI within a few months and the earnings from late 2013 to mid 2014 paid for every piece of gear I've bought since then. I even had to exchange BTC to pay most of my personal bills for several months while my business was transitioning and not bringing in much revenue in the middle of 2014. Everything peaked for me before the 2nd half of 2014. I exchanged my KNC Neptune preorder for those gawd-awful FrankenJups. But it probably worked out better for me. I was hashing much sooner than those who kept their Neptune preorders and I was sent double the amount of hashing boards because of the terrible state that the FJs arrived in after shipping. I bought two extra controllers and was hashing with about 4.5THs just from the FrankenJups alone. I was very lucky though. I got in early before difficulty was sky-high. And I paid for most of my equipment (pre-orders and in-stock) while BTC prices were astronomical. For example, the Neptune/FrankenJups preorder only cost ~10BTC because the price for Bitcoin was ~$1000 at the time. So by today's BTC price, it only cost $2500 for 4.5THs... not bad for Q2 of 2014! ;) Edit... I forgot about the BFL Little Single ($700) that I preordered with a credit card. Of course it arrived very late but I mined with it for a month and then sold it in September 2013 on eBay for $2400. That was a nice return on investment, lol. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: ScaryHash on January 29, 2015, 02:02:30 AM Here, you go. Directly off my old spreadsheet.
From 5/31/2013 to 11/9/2013 4.65404113 generated BTC with 1 Radeon 7950 ($300), a couple of other paid for graphics cards (from my gaming machine - nVidia cards actually...go figure), and 5 block erupters ($150ish each). Total outlay - $1250 (added power supply in). Average BTC price around that time was about 200ish ($100 to $300ish). BTC price on 12/10/2013 was $933. (when I got rid of the BTC ;D) I leave it to you to do the math for ROI. Things since then have not been anywhere near that good, but still making ROI. Just takes longer, that's all. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: notlist3d on January 29, 2015, 03:25:38 AM I think hardest to ROI was A2's. You had to rent them though a site to make it back, and also depended on how much you spent as priced dropped in big amounts.
Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: ChuckBuck on January 29, 2015, 02:29:15 PM Here's a good site to guesstimate(excluding electrical costs) what you put in, and what you mined back:
http://retrocalc.net/ I bombed with my first miner, the Asicminer BlockErupter Blades, back in November/December of 2013. Sold it on eBay to minimize the loss. The only ROI I've ever received with miners was the Antminer S1s and first Dragon 1TH/s miners back in early 2014. Mined to about even, from February to mid summer 2014, then sold off the farm for profit. That's about the only real way to be on the plus end, the resale of equipment. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: unamis76 on January 29, 2015, 02:38:17 PM I did ROI... but only because the miner I had was offered ;D Had a Gridseed 5-chip lying around when they were first released. Also helped setting up Gridseed rigs, and all of them had ROI, as they were set-up early in the game :)
Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: JessicaSe on January 29, 2015, 02:50:40 PM offcource difficulty for bitcoin mining is dropping but price dropping also so in the terms if you bought your miners with fiat then its not profitable for mining but if you bought it with btc when price was higher then possible you are getting better return for your BTC investment
Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: adaseb on January 29, 2015, 03:01:20 PM Here's a good site to guesstimate(excluding electrical costs) what you put in, and what you mined back: http://retrocalc.net/ I bombed with my first miner, the Asicminer BlockErupter Blades, back in November/December of 2013. Sold it on eBay to minimize the loss. The only ROI I've ever received with miners was the Antminer S1s and first Dragon 1TH/s miners back in early 2014. Mined to about even, from February to mid summer 2014, then sold off the farm for profit. That's about the only real way to be on the plus end, the resale of equipment. Its a cool website. It would of been nice if there was an option to conver the BTC to USD at the current date and then you could easily estimate how much you would of made. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: BTCish on January 30, 2015, 07:39:12 PM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner.
Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: the joint on January 30, 2015, 10:04:18 PM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. Bingo! If history repeats, it's a great time to buy a miner with fiat. The other benefit to buying a miner with fiat is that it is the *only* way to stand a chance at getting >100% ROI in a downtrend, even if it happens to require a very specific set of conditions (and it does). Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: ChuckBuck on January 30, 2015, 10:05:06 PM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. As always, as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....if you believe the price will rise, just buy the Bitcoin. You're throwing away money and wasting time buying miners, if you're doing it strictly on speculation. Too many factors against mining: electrical costs, downtime, upkeep, maintenance, cooling, difficulty, pool variance Just buy BTC at the moment, it's at a discount price! 8) Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: the joint on January 30, 2015, 10:13:01 PM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. As always, as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....if you believe the price will rise, just buy the Bitcoin. You're throwing away money and wasting time buying miners, if you're doing it strictly on speculation. Too many factors against mining: electrical costs, downtime, upkeep, maintenance, cooling, difficulty, pool variance Just buy BTC at the moment, it's at a discount price! 8) Bad logic. There are many reasons why buying a miner could be better than buying BTC. If people really believe that BTC will definitively increase in value, then the best option would seem to be selling everything you own for BTC that isn't essential to your immediate survival. Obviously, that would be an unbelievably risky move, so basically anyone will factor in at least *some* level of risk. For those who don't mind risk, buying BTC outright may be preferable. However, if you hate risk, buying a miner can be a much safer option, especially in a bear market. The trade off for that extra security is decreased profit potential over the long haul. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: ChuckBuck on January 30, 2015, 10:27:14 PM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. As always, as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....if you believe the price will rise, just buy the Bitcoin. You're throwing away money and wasting time buying miners, if you're doing it strictly on speculation. Too many factors against mining: electrical costs, downtime, upkeep, maintenance, cooling, difficulty, pool variance Just buy BTC at the moment, it's at a discount price! 8) Bad logic. There are many reasons why buying a miner could be better than buying BTC. If people really believe that BTC will definitively increase in value, then the best option would seem to be selling everything you own for BTC that isn't essential to your immediate survival. Obviously, that would be an unbelievably risky move, so basically anyone will factor in at least *some* level of risk. For those who don't mind risk, buying BTC outright may be preferable. However, if you hate risk, buying a miner can be a much safer option, especially in a bear market. The trade off for that extra security is decreased profit potential over the long haul. You don't buy miners when the price slumps, you just buy BTC, if you're speculating on a price hike. You DO buy miners when the BTC fiat price is high, as it's more prohibitive to buy the coin outright, then it is to generate small amounts of it daily in hopes of making your fiat investment back. Simple math for ROI, dude. BTC In<=BTC Out Buying a miner now with fiat, no matter which miners, you'll net negative BTC. If you bought a miner for $500, mine back half a Bitcoin and Bitcoin spikes to $920 a Bitcoin, you're thinking, "WOW, I made back my investment!" WRONG! If you had bought $500 worth of Bitcoin, you'd have over 2 Bitcoins at today's price. It's throwing good money at bad investments. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: adaseb on January 30, 2015, 10:36:07 PM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. As always, as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....if you believe the price will rise, just buy the Bitcoin. You're throwing away money and wasting time buying miners, if you're doing it strictly on speculation. Too many factors against mining: electrical costs, downtime, upkeep, maintenance, cooling, difficulty, pool variance Just buy BTC at the moment, it's at a discount price! 8) Bad logic. There are many reasons why buying a miner could be better than buying BTC. If people really believe that BTC will definitively increase in value, then the best option would seem to be selling everything you own for BTC that isn't essential to your immediate survival. Obviously, that would be an unbelievably risky move, so basically anyone will factor in at least *some* level of risk. For those who don't mind risk, buying BTC outright may be preferable. However, if you hate risk, buying a miner can be a much safer option, especially in a bear market. The trade off for that extra security is decreased profit potential over the long haul. You don't buy miners when the price slumps, you just buy BTC, if you're speculating on a price hike. You DO buy miners when the BTC fiat price is high, as it's more prohibitive to buy the coin outright, then it is to generate small amounts of it daily in hopes of making your fiat investment back. Simple math for ROI, dude. BTC In<=BTC Out Buying a miner now with fiat, no matter which miners, you'll net negative BTC. If you bought a miner for $500, mine back half a Bitcoin and Bitcoin spikes to $920 a Bitcoin, you're thinking, "WOW, I made back my investment!" WRONG! If you had bought $500 worth of Bitcoin, you'd have over 2 Bitcoins at today's price. It's throwing good money at bad investments. Wrong. You didn't consider the fact that you can get a miner DIRT cheap these days and if you have FREE electricity you have a higher chance of making money then buying BTC and hoping you sell it at a higher price then you bought it for. Also the ASIC after 6 months or 12 months you can re-sell to get some % of your money back. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: foxbitcoin on January 30, 2015, 11:55:14 PM So what is the point in mining ?
Surely theres a rig that can be built that could pay for itself and earn real money ??? Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: the joint on January 31, 2015, 12:00:49 AM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. As always, as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....if you believe the price will rise, just buy the Bitcoin. You're throwing away money and wasting time buying miners, if you're doing it strictly on speculation. Too many factors against mining: electrical costs, downtime, upkeep, maintenance, cooling, difficulty, pool variance Just buy BTC at the moment, it's at a discount price! 8) Bad logic. There are many reasons why buying a miner could be better than buying BTC. If people really believe that BTC will definitively increase in value, then the best option would seem to be selling everything you own for BTC that isn't essential to your immediate survival. Obviously, that would be an unbelievably risky move, so basically anyone will factor in at least *some* level of risk. For those who don't mind risk, buying BTC outright may be preferable. However, if you hate risk, buying a miner can be a much safer option, especially in a bear market. The trade off for that extra security is decreased profit potential over the long haul. You don't buy miners when the price slumps, you just buy BTC, if you're speculating on a price hike. You DO buy miners when the BTC fiat price is high, as it's more prohibitive to buy the coin outright, then it is to generate small amounts of it daily in hopes of making your fiat investment back. Simple math for ROI, dude. BTC In<=BTC Out Buying a miner now with fiat, no matter which miners, you'll net negative BTC. If you bought a miner for $500, mine back half a Bitcoin and Bitcoin spikes to $920 a Bitcoin, you're thinking, "WOW, I made back my investment!" WRONG! If you had bought $500 worth of Bitcoin, you'd have over 2 Bitcoins at today's price. It's throwing good money at bad investments. Responding sequentially: 1) First of all, when the price of btc falls, the fiat cost of miners also decreases. Second, speculation exists to varied degree. How much you believe in your speculation significantly determines your investment strategy and how much risk you are willing to take. Buying a miner can be a way to carry less risk under not so uncommon conditions. 2) The cost of BTC in and of itself has absolutely no bearing on ROI. By this I mean that you can theoretically profit at any price level above $0. 3) Simple math for ROI, dude. Fiat in <= fiat out 4) Uh, no, you're wrong. If you pay $500 for a miner and mine 1 BTC and sell the btc for $920, then your profit is $420 (excluding other expenditures). If you buy with fiat, then profits are tracked in fiat. If you buy with BTC, then profits are tracked in BTC. The flaw in your reasoning is that you are making an advisement based upon the assumption that the price will *certainly* be higher in the future. But what if the market goes down? If you buy BTC and the price goes down, you *always* take a loss. But with a miner it is possible to get >100% in a down market. Also consider that you still have the value of your hardware. 5) Sure, you could buy more than 2 BTC at these prices, but if the price falls then you have 2 less valuable BTC. And, if the price goes down, difficulty can go down and you mine more BTC. 6) I've owned numerous rigs and ASICs that have achieved 100% ROI *solely* due to the fact that I either paid with fiat directly, or paid wth BTC but immediately repurchased the amount I spent. In a few cases, the difference was >300%. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: ChuckBuck on February 02, 2015, 03:38:56 PM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. As always, as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....if you believe the price will rise, just buy the Bitcoin. You're throwing away money and wasting time buying miners, if you're doing it strictly on speculation. Too many factors against mining: electrical costs, downtime, upkeep, maintenance, cooling, difficulty, pool variance Just buy BTC at the moment, it's at a discount price! 8) Bad logic. There are many reasons why buying a miner could be better than buying BTC. If people really believe that BTC will definitively increase in value, then the best option would seem to be selling everything you own for BTC that isn't essential to your immediate survival. Obviously, that would be an unbelievably risky move, so basically anyone will factor in at least *some* level of risk. For those who don't mind risk, buying BTC outright may be preferable. However, if you hate risk, buying a miner can be a much safer option, especially in a bear market. The trade off for that extra security is decreased profit potential over the long haul. You don't buy miners when the price slumps, you just buy BTC, if you're speculating on a price hike. You DO buy miners when the BTC fiat price is high, as it's more prohibitive to buy the coin outright, then it is to generate small amounts of it daily in hopes of making your fiat investment back. Simple math for ROI, dude. BTC In<=BTC Out Buying a miner now with fiat, no matter which miners, you'll net negative BTC. If you bought a miner for $500, mine back half a Bitcoin and Bitcoin spikes to $920 a Bitcoin, you're thinking, "WOW, I made back my investment!" WRONG! If you had bought $500 worth of Bitcoin, you'd have over 2 Bitcoins at today's price. It's throwing good money at bad investments. Responding sequentially: 1) First of all, when the price of btc falls, the fiat cost of miners also decreases. Second, speculation exists to varied degree. How much you believe in your speculation significantly determines your investment strategy and how much risk you are willing to take. Buying a miner can be a way to carry less risk under not so uncommon conditions. The fiat cost of miners may decrease, the but electrical and cooling costs don't. Not sure if you're talking about a single miner, but if you a small farm, it doesn't make sense to run with those accumulating month to month hosting costs. 2) The cost of BTC in and of itself has absolutely no bearing on ROI. By this I mean that you can theoretically profit at any price level above $0. Reading your posts, it's obvious that you're concentrated on Fiat profit first and foremost. Nothing wrong with that, Fiat rules the world at the moment. I like to deal with BTC in and out, easier to calculate profit and ROI, but I understand your idealogy. 3) Simple math for ROI, dude. Fiat in <= fiat out Once again, you deal with Fiat ROI and profit, nothing wrong with that. Seeing as this is Bitcointalk forum, you may get a majority of different opinions than yours. 4) Uh, no, you're wrong. If you pay $500 for a miner and mine 1 BTC and sell the btc for $920, then your profit is $420 (excluding other expenditures). If you buy with fiat, then profits are tracked in fiat. If you buy with BTC, then profits are tracked in BTC. Same argument. Fiat or BTC ROI/profit. The flaw in your reasoning is that you are making an advisement based upon the assumption that the price will *certainly* be higher in the future. But what if the market goes down? If you buy BTC and the price goes down, you *always* take a loss. But with a miner it is possible to get >100% in a down market. Also consider that you still have the value of your hardware. Mining hardware depreciates faster than regular server or network equipment, much faster. 1 TH/s Dragons sold for $3,000-$4000 at launch early last year. Now you can get Antminer S5s brand new for like $300. 5) Sure, you could buy more than 2 BTC at these prices, but if the price falls then you have 2 less valuable BTC. And, if the price goes down, difficulty can go down and you mine more BTC. Price can go up, down, sideways. Your guess is as good as mine. I think the majority of us are in it for the long haul. Obviously you're focusing on the short term fiat amount for price stability's sake. 6) I've owned numerous rigs and ASICs that have achieved 100% ROI *solely* due to the fact that I either paid with fiat directly, or paid wth BTC but immediately repurchased the amount I spent. In a few cases, the difference was >300%. Fiat vs BTC profit once again. Different strokes for different folks. Your approach to things isn't wrong, I'm not disputing the fiat approach to things. It's the current economic world we live in. If the approach is to accumulate as much Bitcoin as possible, then it is wrong, however. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: the joint on February 02, 2015, 04:01:07 PM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. As always, as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....if you believe the price will rise, just buy the Bitcoin. You're throwing away money and wasting time buying miners, if you're doing it strictly on speculation. Too many factors against mining: electrical costs, downtime, upkeep, maintenance, cooling, difficulty, pool variance Just buy BTC at the moment, it's at a discount price! 8) Bad logic. There are many reasons why buying a miner could be better than buying BTC. If people really believe that BTC will definitively increase in value, then the best option would seem to be selling everything you own for BTC that isn't essential to your immediate survival. Obviously, that would be an unbelievably risky move, so basically anyone will factor in at least *some* level of risk. For those who don't mind risk, buying BTC outright may be preferable. However, if you hate risk, buying a miner can be a much safer option, especially in a bear market. The trade off for that extra security is decreased profit potential over the long haul. You don't buy miners when the price slumps, you just buy BTC, if you're speculating on a price hike. You DO buy miners when the BTC fiat price is high, as it's more prohibitive to buy the coin outright, then it is to generate small amounts of it daily in hopes of making your fiat investment back. Simple math for ROI, dude. BTC In<=BTC Out Buying a miner now with fiat, no matter which miners, you'll net negative BTC. If you bought a miner for $500, mine back half a Bitcoin and Bitcoin spikes to $920 a Bitcoin, you're thinking, "WOW, I made back my investment!" WRONG! If you had bought $500 worth of Bitcoin, you'd have over 2 Bitcoins at today's price. It's throwing good money at bad investments. Responding sequentially: 1) First of all, when the price of btc falls, the fiat cost of miners also decreases. Second, speculation exists to varied degree. How much you believe in your speculation significantly determines your investment strategy and how much risk you are willing to take. Buying a miner can be a way to carry less risk under not so uncommon conditions. The fiat cost of miners may decrease, the but electrical and cooling costs don't. Not sure if you're talking about a single miner, but if you a small farm, it doesn't make sense to run with those accumulating month to month hosting costs. 2) The cost of BTC in and of itself has absolutely no bearing on ROI. By this I mean that you can theoretically profit at any price level above $0. Reading your posts, it's obvious that you're concentrated on Fiat profit first and foremost. Nothing wrong with that, Fiat rules the world at the moment. I like to deal with BTC in and out, easier to calculate profit and ROI, but I understand your idealogy. 3) Simple math for ROI, dude. Fiat in <= fiat out Once again, you deal with Fiat ROI and profit, nothing wrong with that. Seeing as this is Bitcointalk forum, you may get a majority of different opinions than yours. 4) Uh, no, you're wrong. If you pay $500 for a miner and mine 1 BTC and sell the btc for $920, then your profit is $420 (excluding other expenditures). If you buy with fiat, then profits are tracked in fiat. If you buy with BTC, then profits are tracked in BTC. Same argument. Fiat or BTC ROI/profit. The flaw in your reasoning is that you are making an advisement based upon the assumption that the price will *certainly* be higher in the future. But what if the market goes down? If you buy BTC and the price goes down, you *always* take a loss. But with a miner it is possible to get >100% in a down market. Also consider that you still have the value of your hardware. Mining hardware depreciates faster than regular server or network equipment, much faster. 1 TH/s Dragons sold for $3,000-$4000 at launch early last year. Now you can get Antminer S5s brand new for like $300. 5) Sure, you could buy more than 2 BTC at these prices, but if the price falls then you have 2 less valuable BTC. And, if the price goes down, difficulty can go down and you mine more BTC. Price can go up, down, sideways. Your guess is as good as mine. I think the majority of us are in it for the long haul. Obviously you're focusing on the short term fiat amount for price stability's sake. 6) I've owned numerous rigs and ASICs that have achieved 100% ROI *solely* due to the fact that I either paid with fiat directly, or paid wth BTC but immediately repurchased the amount I spent. In a few cases, the difference was >300%. Fiat vs BTC profit once again. Different strokes for different folks. Your approach to things isn't wrong, I'm not disputing the fiat approach to things. It's the current economic world we live in. If the approach is to accumulate as much Bitcoin as possible, then it is wrong, however. Agreed, profit-potential is generally greater if you purchase BTC outright as it would take an unlikely set of circumstances (especially given current ones) to generate more BTC than mining. We both agree that we can't know future price movement. But, let's consider the two main options we're focusing on: 1) We can buy BTC, and 2) We can buy a miner instead. Currently, we are in a down market. If at any point during the past year someone purchased BTC (and didn't successfully day-trade with it) and held it, they would have lost money. Similarly, if they had purchased a miner with BTC, virtually all will have lost money. The chance for ROI over the past year given these conditions is/was essentially 0%. I've purchased several miners with fiat during the past year, and every single one of those achieved >200% ROI. In other words, they were the best decisions I could have made at the time. Pretty much anyone who has purchased a miner with fiat during the past year would have done far better than those who purchased BTC outright or bought a miner with BTC. Basically, we agree on a lot of things, but the point I keep emphasizing is that, generally, buying a miner limits the range of potential gains but also losses, and therefore carries less risk in many ways. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: ChuckBuck on February 02, 2015, 04:32:17 PM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. As always, as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....if you believe the price will rise, just buy the Bitcoin. You're throwing away money and wasting time buying miners, if you're doing it strictly on speculation. Too many factors against mining: electrical costs, downtime, upkeep, maintenance, cooling, difficulty, pool variance Just buy BTC at the moment, it's at a discount price! 8) Bad logic. There are many reasons why buying a miner could be better than buying BTC. If people really believe that BTC will definitively increase in value, then the best option would seem to be selling everything you own for BTC that isn't essential to your immediate survival. Obviously, that would be an unbelievably risky move, so basically anyone will factor in at least *some* level of risk. For those who don't mind risk, buying BTC outright may be preferable. However, if you hate risk, buying a miner can be a much safer option, especially in a bear market. The trade off for that extra security is decreased profit potential over the long haul. You don't buy miners when the price slumps, you just buy BTC, if you're speculating on a price hike. You DO buy miners when the BTC fiat price is high, as it's more prohibitive to buy the coin outright, then it is to generate small amounts of it daily in hopes of making your fiat investment back. Simple math for ROI, dude. BTC In<=BTC Out Buying a miner now with fiat, no matter which miners, you'll net negative BTC. If you bought a miner for $500, mine back half a Bitcoin and Bitcoin spikes to $920 a Bitcoin, you're thinking, "WOW, I made back my investment!" WRONG! If you had bought $500 worth of Bitcoin, you'd have over 2 Bitcoins at today's price. It's throwing good money at bad investments. Responding sequentially: 1) First of all, when the price of btc falls, the fiat cost of miners also decreases. Second, speculation exists to varied degree. How much you believe in your speculation significantly determines your investment strategy and how much risk you are willing to take. Buying a miner can be a way to carry less risk under not so uncommon conditions. The fiat cost of miners may decrease, the but electrical and cooling costs don't. Not sure if you're talking about a single miner, but if you a small farm, it doesn't make sense to run with those accumulating month to month hosting costs. 2) The cost of BTC in and of itself has absolutely no bearing on ROI. By this I mean that you can theoretically profit at any price level above $0. Reading your posts, it's obvious that you're concentrated on Fiat profit first and foremost. Nothing wrong with that, Fiat rules the world at the moment. I like to deal with BTC in and out, easier to calculate profit and ROI, but I understand your idealogy. 3) Simple math for ROI, dude. Fiat in <= fiat out Once again, you deal with Fiat ROI and profit, nothing wrong with that. Seeing as this is Bitcointalk forum, you may get a majority of different opinions than yours. 4) Uh, no, you're wrong. If you pay $500 for a miner and mine 1 BTC and sell the btc for $920, then your profit is $420 (excluding other expenditures). If you buy with fiat, then profits are tracked in fiat. If you buy with BTC, then profits are tracked in BTC. Same argument. Fiat or BTC ROI/profit. The flaw in your reasoning is that you are making an advisement based upon the assumption that the price will *certainly* be higher in the future. But what if the market goes down? If you buy BTC and the price goes down, you *always* take a loss. But with a miner it is possible to get >100% in a down market. Also consider that you still have the value of your hardware. Mining hardware depreciates faster than regular server or network equipment, much faster. 1 TH/s Dragons sold for $3,000-$4000 at launch early last year. Now you can get Antminer S5s brand new for like $300. 5) Sure, you could buy more than 2 BTC at these prices, but if the price falls then you have 2 less valuable BTC. And, if the price goes down, difficulty can go down and you mine more BTC. Price can go up, down, sideways. Your guess is as good as mine. I think the majority of us are in it for the long haul. Obviously you're focusing on the short term fiat amount for price stability's sake. 6) I've owned numerous rigs and ASICs that have achieved 100% ROI *solely* due to the fact that I either paid with fiat directly, or paid wth BTC but immediately repurchased the amount I spent. In a few cases, the difference was >300%. Fiat vs BTC profit once again. Different strokes for different folks. Your approach to things isn't wrong, I'm not disputing the fiat approach to things. It's the current economic world we live in. If the approach is to accumulate as much Bitcoin as possible, then it is wrong, however. Agreed, profit-potential is generally greater if you purchase BTC outright as it would take an unlikely set of circumstances (especially given current ones) to generate more BTC than mining. We both agree that we can't know future price movement. But, let's consider the two main options we're focusing on: 1) We can buy BTC, and 2) We can buy a miner instead. Currently, we are in a down market. If at any point during the past year someone purchased BTC (and didn't successfully day-trade with it) and held it, they would have lost money. Similarly, if they had purchased a miner with BTC, virtually all will have lost money. The chance for ROI over the past year given these conditions is/was essentially 0%. I've purchased several miners with fiat during the past year, and every single one of those achieved >200% ROI. In other words, they were the best decisions I could have made at the time. Pretty much anyone who has purchased a miner with fiat during the past year would have done far better than those who purchased BTC outright or bought a miner with BTC. Basically, we agree on a lot of things, but the point I keep emphasizing is that, generally, buying a miner limits the range of potential gains but also losses, and therefore carries less risk in many ways. Can't argue with that. Your approach profitted handsomely, and is a good method in the current climate. Your way is the right way to profit and ROI now. Buying any miner now with BTC, is just plain dumb, then using fiat, wire, or paypal to cover costs. Then naturally you recoup your fiat with BTC mined and the BTC resale of the equipment. I'm hoping (dumb me) and banking on the continued development and adoption and improvement of the ecosystem of Bitcoin overall. I've mined my good share, but once difficulty rose to a level I could no longer compete or cover costs, I had no choice to liquidate my hardware. If BTC price ever rises to it's pre Gox days, then I may even indulge in a miner once again, just to get that residual income daily (buying miner in Fiat of course). When I bought my first Antminer S1s and Dragons in early 2014, I ROI'ed in BTC for the first time after buying it in BTC. Nowadays, it's not possible for the BTC in/BTC out method, though Fiat in/Fiat out is still doable for sure. Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: xstr8guy on February 03, 2015, 02:59:08 AM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. As always, as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....if you believe the price will rise, just buy the Bitcoin. You're throwing away money and wasting time buying miners, if you're doing it strictly on speculation. Too many factors against mining: electrical costs, downtime, upkeep, maintenance, cooling, difficulty, pool variance Just buy BTC at the moment, it's at a discount price! 8) Bad logic. There are many reasons why buying a miner could be better than buying BTC. If people really believe that BTC will definitively increase in value, then the best option would seem to be selling everything you own for BTC that isn't essential to your immediate survival. Obviously, that would be an unbelievably risky move, so basically anyone will factor in at least *some* level of risk. For those who don't mind risk, buying BTC outright may be preferable. However, if you hate risk, buying a miner can be a much safer option, especially in a bear market. The trade off for that extra security is decreased profit potential over the long haul. You don't buy miners when the price slumps, you just buy BTC, if you're speculating on a price hike. You DO buy miners when the BTC fiat price is high, as it's more prohibitive to buy the coin outright, then it is to generate small amounts of it daily in hopes of making your fiat investment back. Simple math for ROI, dude. BTC In<=BTC Out Buying a miner now with fiat, no matter which miners, you'll net negative BTC. If you bought a miner for $500, mine back half a Bitcoin and Bitcoin spikes to $920 a Bitcoin, you're thinking, "WOW, I made back my investment!" WRONG! If you had bought $500 worth of Bitcoin, you'd have over 2 Bitcoins at today's price. It's throwing good money at bad investments. I am certainly glad I didn't buy BTC with fiat when it was at $900-1100. But I'm ecstatic that I bought a lot of mining gear with BTC at that time! There is no guarantee of success when buying BTC with fiat and speculating on long term price increase. Recent history shows ample proof of that. There has to be a lot of victims because of the tumble from $1100 to $200 over the past year (and a couple months). IMO, anyone using BTC to buy mining gear now with the exchange rate so low is a fool. And using fiat is just as bad if not worse. I recently bought 2 SP20s during the group buy sale. That was foolish on my part but I just had to have those cool looking Spondoolies machines. :-\ Title: Re: Did you get ROI for your mining equipment? Post by: ChuckBuck on February 03, 2015, 02:26:26 PM It is now a good time to buy miners with fiat, if you believe than BTC price will raise. good way to get positive ROI sooner. As always, as it was in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....if you believe the price will rise, just buy the Bitcoin. You're throwing away money and wasting time buying miners, if you're doing it strictly on speculation. Too many factors against mining: electrical costs, downtime, upkeep, maintenance, cooling, difficulty, pool variance Just buy BTC at the moment, it's at a discount price! 8) Bad logic. There are many reasons why buying a miner could be better than buying BTC. If people really believe that BTC will definitively increase in value, then the best option would seem to be selling everything you own for BTC that isn't essential to your immediate survival. Obviously, that would be an unbelievably risky move, so basically anyone will factor in at least *some* level of risk. For those who don't mind risk, buying BTC outright may be preferable. However, if you hate risk, buying a miner can be a much safer option, especially in a bear market. The trade off for that extra security is decreased profit potential over the long haul. You don't buy miners when the price slumps, you just buy BTC, if you're speculating on a price hike. You DO buy miners when the BTC fiat price is high, as it's more prohibitive to buy the coin outright, then it is to generate small amounts of it daily in hopes of making your fiat investment back. Simple math for ROI, dude. BTC In<=BTC Out Buying a miner now with fiat, no matter which miners, you'll net negative BTC. If you bought a miner for $500, mine back half a Bitcoin and Bitcoin spikes to $920 a Bitcoin, you're thinking, "WOW, I made back my investment!" WRONG! If you had bought $500 worth of Bitcoin, you'd have over 2 Bitcoins at today's price. It's throwing good money at bad investments. I am certainly glad I didn't buy BTC with fiat when it was at $900-1100. But I'm ecstatic that I bought a lot of mining gear with BTC at that time! There is no guarantee of success when buying BTC with fiat and speculating on long term price increase. Recent history shows ample proof of that. There has to be a lot of victims because of the tumble from $1100 to $200 over the past year (and a couple months). IMO, anyone using BTC to buy mining gear now with the exchange rate so low is a fool. And using fiat is just as bad if not worse. I recently bought 2 SP20s during the group buy sale. That was foolish on my part but I just had to have those cool looking Spondoolies machines. :-\ It really is just a tough time overall for both mining and Crypto overall with this non stop Price drop. People say just keep holding it and never spend it, but how is that possible if you electrical bills to pay or better yet mortgage, rent, medical, food, school etc... Anybody here that doesn't care about the fiat price of Bitcoin is delusional, as it plays an enormous factor. The largest cloud mining Cex.IO had to shut down it's door because of the low BTC price. Until fiat just completely up and dies off, BTC's value will be forever tied to it for both mining and practical uses. |