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Title: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 06, 2015, 10:18:51 PM Why?
Because there are no users for the bloatcoin. People won't adopt it. They'll go for alts with smaller bloatchains. Gavincoin hardfork will not only cause massive chaos and unease for investors (who want out surely at some point) but also make it impossible to use Gavincoin with a W-Lan connection aswell as on most normal computers people have at home today. Most users' limit in bandwidth is too small to participate in Gavincoin after the hardfork. (many will want to tell you otherwise, but they simply have no clue - it's basically the same people who told you to hodl all of last year) The fork and internal warfare will also destroy investors confidence irreparably. Because of this and many other reasons Gavincoin will drift towards ZERO Massadoption of Gavincoin is an impossibility Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: dasource on February 06, 2015, 10:22:14 PM Wow the stupidity on the forum is going to a new level!
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: SnokkomBTC on February 06, 2015, 10:25:56 PM Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Bernard Lerring on February 06, 2015, 10:28:44 PM The OP seems like an example of typing as it appears in ones brain. Well done on this "stream of thought" style.
How do we know when/if the hard fork is due to happen? Has anyone made a countdown? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 06, 2015, 10:39:40 PM Why? Because there are no users for the bloatcoin. People won't adopt it. They'll go for alts with smaller bloatchains. Gavincoin hardfork will not only cause massive chaos and unease for investors (who want out surely at some point) but also make it impossible to use Gavincoin with a W-Lan connection aswell as on most normal computers people have at home today. Most users' limit in bandwidth is too small to participate in Gavincoin after the hardfork. (many will want to tell you otherwise, but they simply have no clue - it's basically the same people who told you to hodl all of last year) The fork and internal warfare will also destroy investors confidence irreparably. Because of this and many other reasons Gavincoin will drift towards ZERO Massadoption of Gavincoin is an impossibility Let me just pipe in here and say: https://i.imgur.com/ptGfWKpl.jpg Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: shit coin on February 06, 2015, 10:46:19 PM The OP seems like an example of typing as it appears in ones brain. Well done on this "stream of thought" style. How do we know when/if the hard fork is due to happen? Has anyone made a countdown? I thought it was merely under discussion with no decision reached yet. I cannot even find out how long the discussion is going to last. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Bernard Lerring on February 06, 2015, 10:50:58 PM There seems to be a greater deal of speculation recently without Gavin proposing a date for anything happening. Not that I've seen, anyway. I haven't looked that hard.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 06, 2015, 11:04:49 PM the day it is scheduled is the day of the crash
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: BillyBobZorton on February 06, 2015, 11:08:53 PM Im a bit out of the loop so im asking... are they really creating an actual fork named "Gavincoin"? wtf..
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Bernard Lerring on February 06, 2015, 11:11:15 PM That wouldn't surprise me. If there's a temporary crash due to the block chain fork when the switch happens. Before resuming trade at a similar price to before the fork.
Would it surprise you, homo homini lupus? The way you're posting the information seems to be as if you're imparting some genius knowledge upon us. Any temporary disruption to the block chain is bound to have an exaggerated, if temporary, effect on Bitcoin. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Bernard Lerring on February 06, 2015, 11:16:03 PM BillyBobZorton, the fork that is proposed is being implemented by Gavin Andresen who's one of the Bitcoin developers. The trolls are using Gavincoin as a way to smear Bitcoin to try and have an effect on regular users of the forum. Here's a thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=941331.0 Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 06, 2015, 11:18:20 PM Im a bit out of the loop so im asking... are they really creating an actual fork named "Gavincoin"? wtf.. 'they' aren't calling it that. 'We' call it that because we need to distinguish gavincoin from Mpcoin which is the original Bitcoinchain that will live on aswell. The savvy and informed user basically gets to choose which fork he/she wants to use. The bloated gavinchain or the original unforked bitcoin chain (mpcoin) The issue is ceating massive chaos because bitcoin works based on consensus and attempting a hardfork without a consensus like Gavin does will cause big problems. That wouldn't surprise me. If there's a temporary crash due to the block chain fork when the switch happens. Before resuming trade at a similar price to before the fork. Would it surprise you, homo homini lupus? The way you're posting the information seems to be as if you're imparting some genius knowledge upon us. Any temporary disruption to the block chain is bound to have an exaggerated, if temporary, effect on Bitcoin. temporary? Not so sure. Have you thought about the actual mpcoin/gavincoin market? What happens when mpcoin and gavincoin are traded directly against each other? You got it. Madness! So the flashrecovery isn't a thing i see as this shenangians can be expected to go on for several months maybe years. It's not a 'temporary disruption', it's a SPLIT of bitcoin into two forks and also a split in the community. The altcoin 'Gavincoin' and the original Bitcoinchain without changes. Many people will go for Gavincoin but Mpcoin is the integer blockchain. User that don't upgrade are automatically on Mpcoin. It's going to be a fuckin' madness situation. ... basically the amount of bitcoin doubles *disclosure on my position: i am an independant onlooker in this. I am not associated with any of the sides, though i do prefer Mpcoin as the integer Bitcoin over Bloated and inaccessible Gavincoin. At the time of the fork i will hold no bitcoin and will not participate in any of that. Same would be advised for anyone else - so that's why the market crashes because nobody wants to get caught up in it and everyone sells before the fork. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Bernard Lerring on February 06, 2015, 11:21:27 PM So you're asking what happens to Gavincoin/mpcoin after the split.
My answer is that I'll start using whichever one chain is accessible by the current Bitcoin exchanges. I don't think we'll see both accepted by the exchanges. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 06, 2015, 11:23:35 PM So you're asking what happens to Gavincoin/mpcoin after the split. My answer is that I'll start using whichever one chain is accessible by the current Bitcoin exchanges. I don't think we'll see both accepted by the exchanges. different exchanges will accept different forks. And maybe some exchanges even accept coins from both forks. Other exchanges will accept no fork at all. The only winners in this will be the good and solid altcoins Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Bernard Lerring on February 06, 2015, 11:24:30 PM I doubt it.
You can quote that on one of your future troll posts, if you want. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: D05GTO on February 06, 2015, 11:42:37 PM Dumb post by someone who couldn't even bother to read the Bitcoin Whitepaper. Here's a snippet for the uninformed.
" Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or about 12KB per day. Only people trying to create new coins would need to run network nodes. At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware. A server farm would only need to have one node on the network and the rest of the LAN connects with that one node. The bandwidth might not be as prohibitive as you think. A typical transaction would be about 400 bytes (ECC is nicely compact). Each transaction has to be broadcast twice, so lets say 1KB per transaction. Visa processed 37 billion transactions in FY2008, or an average of 100 million transactions per day. That many transactions would take 100GB of bandwidth, or the size of 12 DVD or 2 HD quality movies, or about $18 worth of bandwidth at current prices. If the network were to get that big, it would take several years, and by then, sending 2 HD movies over the Internet would probably not seem like a big deal. Satoshi Nakamoto " Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 06, 2015, 11:49:00 PM Dumb post by someone who couldn't even bother to read the Bitcoin Whitepaper. Here's a snippet for the uninformed. " Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or about 12KB per day. Only people trying to create new coins would need to run network nodes. At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware. A server farm would only need to have one node on the network and the rest of the LAN connects with that one node. The bandwidth might not be as prohibitive as you think. A typical transaction would be about 400 bytes (ECC is nicely compact). Each transaction has to be broadcast twice, so lets say 1KB per transaction. Visa processed 37 billion transactions in FY2008, or an average of 100 million transactions per day. That many transactions would take 100GB of bandwidth, or the size of 12 DVD or 2 HD quality movies, or about $18 worth of bandwidth at current prices. If the network were to get that big, it would take several years, and by then, sending 2 HD movies over the Internet would probably not seem like a big deal. Satoshi Nakamoto " gavin is fixed on it - he's not looking at reality Bitcoin does not have that transaction volume yet and Gavincoin will never get it because it's not a useful coin. Mpcoin maybe ... Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: galbros on February 06, 2015, 11:51:22 PM I agree that a growing size of the blockchain is a potential issue. However, there seem to be lots of improvements in the number and quality of light clients that don't require users to download the entire blockchain. Furthermore, as merchants use payment providers, it may not be an issue at all.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 06, 2015, 11:53:54 PM I agree that a growing size of the blockchain is a potential issue. However, there seem to be lots of improvements in the number and quality of light clients that don't require users to download the entire blockchain. Furthermore, as merchants use payment providers, it may not be an issue at all. Basically users of gavincoin give up their souvereignity and direct control over the coins. They will be incapacitated in no time. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 06, 2015, 11:57:04 PM - A 70% majority of sheep does not save Gavincoin as these sheep will later run for the exit too once they see what gavincoin really is
- convincing exchanges to not use Mpcoin will not help Gavincoin because one single exchange accepting Mpcoin is enough - all propaganda and campaign will not save Gavincoin as users do see clearly the coin will become a nightmare to use almost immediately Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 12:00:01 AM after this desaster no new investement into any of the forks will occure by any sane person on earth - investors confidence will be lost forever, it is hurt already
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: D05GTO on February 07, 2015, 12:05:04 AM Too funny, you think you're a wolf praying on the sheep. ::)
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 12:07:50 AM There is no such thing as gavincoin and mpcoin. OP is part of a co-ordinated smear campaign.
The strategy of OP is not to 'win' any argument about which coin is better - its as a trick to make you accept that there exists 2 coins automatically by arguing for one of them. There is only one coin, Bitcoin. There will be an update of the software, it will be well telegraphed, everyone will upgrade in plenty of time. Once the date passes then miners will be able to create bigger blocks when they need to, once that happens then people who haven't bothered to upgrade will suffer. They will be forced to upgrade because otherwise they will not be able to mine anymore. There will be no drama when this happens. There is no 'other' coin. There is no debate. The OP is just trying to drum up interest for their boss MP who's argument is that changing the block size is heresy, despite satoshi himself having said that this change can be phased in exactly how it is going to be (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg15366#msg15366) He well understood the network needed to scale http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html The only people that really have a problem with this (aside from the short interested bears simply glomming onto it as a way to talk dow the price) are those that fail to understand the most simple math. 1MB blocks mean a maximum of ~4000 transactions * 0.0001 transaction fee = 0.4 BTC max potential fees for a mined block 20MB blocks mean a maximum of ~80000 transaction * 0.0001 transaction fee = 8 BTC max potential fees for a mined block Gavin's proposal isn't lets go to 20mb blocks and leave it at that though, it's lets scale max block size over time (http://www.age-of-bitcoin.com/dynamic-block-size-cap-scaling/#comment-99) If you think limiting the block size will make people pay for transactions you are ignoring i) the most basic principals of human nature ii) sidechains, alts and the million other ways that people can transact of chain to avoid paying higher fees. What it also fails to acknowledge is that one of the big argument for bitcoin is "no/low fees". How is that going to remain the case if now we are saying that actually you have to pay fees to get your transaction in the next block. It just doeasn't make any sense. The *only* way for fees to take over from the block reward as the main source of revenue is by increasing the volume of transactions such that tiny fees per transaction add up to something worthwhile. Its really simple maths. Don't let people distract you from the simple maths with their imaginary drama. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 12:10:10 AM ^^^
misinfo/disinfo Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 12:15:19 AM ^^^ misinfo/disinfo what a compelling counter argument to the facts I presented. bravo. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 12:17:12 AM ^^^ misinfo/disinfo what a compelling counter argument to the facts I presented. bravo. man, people need to inform themselves. I really don't have the nerves to refute all propaganda 10 times. You say 'there is only one bitcoin' correct and that's Mpcoin as it is the unforked chain and 1 to 1 bitcoin of today. Gavincoin is per definition a fork of bitcoin and thus an altcoin. (to put it really short) you trying to tell people a second fork wouldn't exist is wrong information. With 100% certainty after the hardfork two 'bitcoins' will exist. (Gavincoin/Mpcoin) Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Bernard Lerring on February 07, 2015, 12:18:48 AM Great post, sgbett.
On one side people criticise Bitcoin for being old technology (oh, really?) and on the other hand people slag off a change in the protocol. Damned if you do... It also helped me understand how the switch will happen. It seems more seamless than I imagined. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 12:23:18 AM Great post, sgbett. On one side people criticise Bitcoin for being old technology (oh, really?) and on the other hand people slag off a change in the protocol. Damned if you do... It also helped me understand how the switch will happen. It seems more seamless than I imagined. well, fork without consensus ... haha ... it's really a joke. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: trackermut on February 07, 2015, 12:26:15 AM Really! is this what the forum has become, a mouth peace for FUD, OP get a real job and fork off!!
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: BCwinning on February 07, 2015, 12:29:23 AM I don't plan on supporting the fork. I want more proposals and more options besides just gavins that obviously doesn't have the full community support. If there is going to be a hard fork; there are other things that need done at that time as well to prevent future hard forks from happening within the next decade again.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 12:34:05 AM I don't plan on supporting the fork. I want more proposals and more options besides just gavins that obviously doesn't have the full community support. If there is going to be a hard fork; there are other things that need done at that time as well to prevent future hard forks from happening within the next decade again. +1 the whole approach is bullshit so far - no other proposals - no consensus - not even an urgent need to fork (some supporters of the gavinfork want tell you that it would be urgent but that has been shown to be wrong) ----------- basically the community is devided in the people who think and talk sense and know the original purpose of the coin aswell as have a basic understanding of the tech and on the other side is the camp of the greedy sheep who don't give a fuck and tell everyone "just follow in line" ----------- people need to inform themselves to protect their finances and be able to make educated decisions. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: QuantumCurrency on February 07, 2015, 12:36:52 AM What hard fork? I have not heard of any official anything at this time...?
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Mircea Popescu's coins plummet to zero Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on February 07, 2015, 12:37:50 AM I agree that a growing size of the blockchain is a potential issue. However, there seem to be lots of improvements in the number and quality of light clients that don't require users to download the entire blockchain. Furthermore, as merchants use payment providers, it may not be an issue at all. Basically users of gavincoin give up their souvereignity and direct control over the coins. They will be incapacitated in no time. You think Mirceacoin is going to fly? ::) Good luck with your civil war I'm sure ;D Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: dasource on February 07, 2015, 12:38:13 AM There is no such thing as gavincoin and mpcoin. OP is part of a co-ordinated smear campaign. The strategy of OP is not to 'win' any argument about which coin is better - its as a trick to make you accept that there exists 2 coins automatically by arguing for one of them. There is only one coin, Bitcoin. There will be an update of the software, it will be well telegraphed, everyone will upgrade in plenty of time. Once the date passes then miners will be able to create bigger blocks when they need to, once that happens then people who haven't bothered to upgrade will suffer. They will be forced to upgrade because otherwise they will not be able to mine anymore. There will be no drama when this happens. There is no 'other' coin. There is no debate. The OP is just trying to drum up interest for their boss MP who's argument is that changing the block size is heresy, despite satoshi himself having said that this change can be phased in exactly how it is going to be (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg15366#msg15366) He well understood the network needed to scale http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html The only people that really have a problem with this (aside from the short interested bears simply glomming onto it as a way to talk dow the price) are those that fail to understand the most simple math. 1MB blocks mean a maximum of ~4000 transactions * 0.0001 transaction fee = 0.4 BTC max potential fees for a mined block 20MB blocks mean a maximum of ~80000 transaction * 0.0001 transaction fee = 8 BTC max potential fees for a mined block Gavin's proposal isn't lets go to 20mb blocks and leave it at that though, it's lets scale max block size over time (http://www.age-of-bitcoin.com/dynamic-block-size-cap-scaling/#comment-99) If you think limiting the block size will make people pay for transactions you are ignoring i) the most basic principals of human nature ii) sidechains, alts and the million other ways that people can transact of chain to avoid paying higher fees. What it also fails to acknowledge is that one of the big argument for bitcoin is "no/low fees". How is that going to remain the case if now we are saying that actually you have to pay fees to get your transaction in the next block. It just doeasn't make any sense. The *only* way for fees to take over from the block reward as the main source of revenue is by increasing the volume of transactions such that tiny fees per transaction add up to something worthwhile. Its really simple maths. Don't let people distract you from the simple maths with their imaginary drama. Just in case you missed it OP!!! Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorebtc on February 07, 2015, 12:38:14 AM if an hardfork is urgent it is too late.
an hardfork needs to be planned - otherwise its chaos. it just matters what miners and exchanges do: ALL others wills follow - even the mp crowd ;) i would remove the block limit all together (including the message-size-limit around 30mb) and let the free market decide what is best. edit: Quote OP is part of a co-ordinated smear campaign i second that.Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: BCwinning on February 07, 2015, 12:38:28 AM I don't plan on supporting the fork. I want more proposals and more options besides just gavins that obviously doesn't have the full community support. If there is going to be a hard fork; there are other things that need done at that time as well to prevent future hard forks from happening within the next decade again. +1 the whole approach is bullshit so far - no other proposals - no consensus - not even an urgent need to fork (some supporters of the gavinfork want tell you that it would be urgent but that has been shown to be wrong) ----------- basically the community is devided in the people who think and talk sense and know the original purpose of the coin aswell as have a basic understanding of the tech and on the other side is the camp of the greedy sheep who don't give a fuck and tell everyone "just follow in line" ----------- people need to inform themselves to protect their finances and be able to make educated decisions. I get the "whole sky is falling" vibe with his hard fork proposal and for not doing shit in the last 5 years. It really can wait a while longer to hash out more ideals. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Mircea Popescu's coins plummet to zero Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on February 07, 2015, 12:40:24 AM There is no such thing as gavincoin and mpcoin. OP is part of a co-ordinated smear campaign. The strategy of OP is not to 'win' any argument about which coin is better - its as a trick to make you accept that there exists 2 coins automatically by arguing for one of them. There is only one coin, Bitcoin. There will be an update of the software, it will be well telegraphed, everyone will upgrade in plenty of time. Once the date passes then miners will be able to create bigger blocks when they need to, once that happens then people who haven't bothered to upgrade will suffer. They will be forced to upgrade because otherwise they will not be able to mine anymore. There will be no drama when this happens. There is no 'other' coin. There is no debate. The OP is just trying to drum up interest for their boss MP who's argument is that changing the block size is heresy, despite satoshi himself having said that this change can be phased in exactly how it is going to be (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg15366#msg15366) He well understood the network needed to scale http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html The only people that really have a problem with this (aside from the short interested bears simply glomming onto it as a way to talk dow the price) are those that fail to understand the most simple math. 1MB blocks mean a maximum of ~4000 transactions * 0.0001 transaction fee = 0.4 BTC max potential fees for a mined block 20MB blocks mean a maximum of ~80000 transaction * 0.0001 transaction fee = 8 BTC max potential fees for a mined block Gavin's proposal isn't lets go to 20mb blocks and leave it at that though, it's lets scale max block size over time (http://www.age-of-bitcoin.com/dynamic-block-size-cap-scaling/#comment-99) If you think limiting the block size will make people pay for transactions you are ignoring i) the most basic principals of human nature ii) sidechains, alts and the million other ways that people can transact of chain to avoid paying higher fees. What it also fails to acknowledge is that one of the big argument for bitcoin is "no/low fees". How is that going to remain the case if now we are saying that actually you have to pay fees to get your transaction in the next block. It just doeasn't make any sense. The *only* way for fees to take over from the block reward as the main source of revenue is by increasing the volume of transactions such that tiny fees per transaction add up to something worthwhile. Its really simple maths. Don't let people distract you from the simple maths with their imaginary drama. Don't forget to read this OP. I even increased the size for you. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 12:42:39 AM completely agree. I get the "whole sky is falling" vibe with his hard fork proposal and for not doing shit in the last 5 years. It really can wait a while longer to hash out more ideals. it has been shown that once blocklimit would be reached fees would of course rise and a free market effect for txs would take hold (if you want fast transaction, pay higher fees). The first effect of this would be to drive a lot of the spamming microtransactions like satoshi dice for 50cents worth a bet and things like that off the chain. That's probably already 20% or 30% of the traffic. So the propaganda of 'the chain comes to a halt' is fearmongering and only serves the purpose of bullying everyone into accepting the gavinfork without a second thought. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorebtc on February 07, 2015, 12:44:12 AM completely agree. I get the "whole sky is falling" vibe with his hard fork proposal and for not doing shit in the last 5 years. It really can wait a while longer to hash out more ideals. it has been shown that once blocklimit would be reached fees would of course rise and a free market effect for txs would take hold (if you want fast transaction, pay higher fees). The first effect of this would be to drive a lot of the spamming microtransactions like satoshi dice for 50cents worth a bet and things like that off the chain. That's probably already 20% or 30% of the traffic. So the propaganda of 'the chain comes to a halt' is fearmongering and only serves the purpose of bullying everyone into accepting the gavinfork without a second thought. if miners want higher fees they can simply make blocks smaller. they can do this know - but atm the block reward is so much higher than all fees combined that there is no need for them to do this. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Mircea Popescu's coins plummet to zero Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on February 07, 2015, 12:50:39 AM completely agree. I get the "whole sky is falling" vibe with his hard fork proposal and for not doing shit in the last 5 years. It really can wait a while longer to hash out more ideals. it has been shown that once blocklimit would be reached fees would of course rise and a free market effect for txs would take hold (if you want fast transaction, pay higher fees). The first effect of this would be to drive a lot of the spamming microtransactions like satoshi dice for 50cents worth a bet and things like that off the chain. That's probably already 20% or 30% of the traffic. So the propaganda of 'the chain comes to a halt' is fearmongering and only serves the purpose of bullying everyone into accepting the gavinfork without a second thought. Once the MirceaPopescufork occurs, Mirceacoin will be all his. What is YOUR point here? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 12:54:14 AM There is no such thing as gavincoin and mpcoin. (false info) OP is part of a co-ordinated smear campaign. (false info) The strategy of OP is not to 'win' any argument about which coin is better - its as a trick to make you accept that there exists 2 coins automatically by arguing for one of them. (i don't even understand what he is saying here) There is only one coin, Bitcoin. (two after the fork, well, Gavincoin and Bitcoin) There will be an update of the software, it will be well telegraphed, everyone (not everyone) will upgrade in plenty of time. Once the date passes then miners will be able to create bigger blocks when they need to, once that happens then people who haven't bothered to upgrade will suffer. (remains to be seen) They will be forced to upgrade because otherwise they will not be able to mine anymore. (false info, mining on the original bitcoin chain continues normal) There will be no drama when this happens. There is no 'other' coin. (again, he just ignores it like he ignored the price all year) There is no debate. (so what are we having here?) The OP is just trying to drum up interest for their boss MP (i don't even know who MP is besides that i was reading his website) who's argument is that changing the block size is heresy, despite satoshi himself having said that this change can be phased in exactly how it is going to be (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg15366#msg15366) (satoshi didn't say what gavin thinks he said - has been pointed out in the thread already) He well understood the network needed to scale http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html The only people that really have a problem with this (aside from the short interested bears simply glomming onto it as a way to talk dow the price) are those that fail to understand the most simple math. 1MB blocks mean a maximum of ~4000 transactions * 0.0001 transaction fee = 0.4 BTC max potential fees for a mined block 20MB blocks mean a maximum of ~80000 transaction * 0.0001 transaction fee = 8 BTC max potential fees for a mined block Gavin's proposal isn't lets go to 20mb blocks and leave it at that though, it's lets scale max block size over time (http://www.age-of-bitcoin.com/dynamic-block-size-cap-scaling/#comment-99) (The blocks on gavinfork will be filled in no time with all kinds of shit - 20 MB will be there in no time and 20MB is just the beginning later it will be much more) If you think limiting the block size will make people pay for transactions you are ignoring i) the most basic principals of human nature ii) sidechains, alts and the million other ways that people can transact of chain to avoid paying higher fees. (it is inevitable more chains will exist and actually it is more practical and more rational) What it also fails to acknowledge is that one of the big argument for bitcoin is "no/low fees". How is that going to remain the case if now we are saying that actually you have to pay fees to get your transaction in the next block. It just doeasn't make any sense. (thenetwork won't be able to operate without fees after the inflation fades off in a few years - the blocklimit is an important metric to keep the chain viable. Nobody says it shouldn't be raised but it shouldn't be raised ahead of the demand because no fees will not work later because miners won't mine - the end of the story will be quantitative easing more coins into existance on the Gavincoin fork later) The *only* way for fees to take over from the block reward as the main source of revenue is by increasing the volume of transactions such that tiny fees per transaction add up to something worthwhile. (the volume of transactions won't increase on a coin scaled up ahead of demand because nobody can afford to download 2.8GB ever day) Its really simple maths. Don't let people distract you from the simple maths with their imaginary drama. Don't forget to read this OP.. happy major? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Mircea Popescu's coins plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 12:56:06 AM completely agree. I get the "whole sky is falling" vibe with his hard fork proposal and for not doing shit in the last 5 years. It really can wait a while longer to hash out more ideals. it has been shown that once blocklimit would be reached fees would of course rise and a free market effect for txs would take hold (if you want fast transaction, pay higher fees). The first effect of this would be to drive a lot of the spamming microtransactions like satoshi dice for 50cents worth a bet and things like that off the chain. That's probably already 20% or 30% of the traffic. So the propaganda of 'the chain comes to a halt' is fearmongering and only serves the purpose of bullying everyone into accepting the gavinfork without a second thought. Once the MirceaPopescufork occurs, Mirceacoin will be all his. What is YOUR point here? how is it 'all his'? It's bitcoin and everyone can and will continue to mine like normal. The network will stay decentralised. But your question doesn't fit the point raised in the text you quote. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorebtc on February 07, 2015, 12:57:16 AM happy major? dont you think its a little bit stupid to assume that 20mb blocks are filled immediatly as soon as they start to exists if atm 1mb blocks are not filled? and dont forget miners are also people: if they think it should stay at 5mb it will be there... so there is no "automatic" doomsday scenario Title: Re: The hardfork will make Mircea Popescu's coins plummet to zero Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on February 07, 2015, 01:01:07 AM completely agree. I get the "whole sky is falling" vibe with his hard fork proposal and for not doing shit in the last 5 years. It really can wait a while longer to hash out more ideals. it has been shown that once blocklimit would be reached fees would of course rise and a free market effect for txs would take hold (if you want fast transaction, pay higher fees). The first effect of this would be to drive a lot of the spamming microtransactions like satoshi dice for 50cents worth a bet and things like that off the chain. That's probably already 20% or 30% of the traffic. So the propaganda of 'the chain comes to a halt' is fearmongering and only serves the purpose of bullying everyone into accepting the gavinfork without a second thought. Once the MirceaPopescufork occurs, Mirceacoin will be all his. What is YOUR point here? how is it 'all his'? It's bitcoin and everyone can and will continue to mine like normal. The network will stay decentralised. But your question doesn't fit the point raised in the text you quote. Oh it fits, alright. It fits BIG TIME! But seriously: who else besides a handful of you will continue to support MPcoin? Seriously!? It will turn into an altcoin, right? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorebtc on February 07, 2015, 01:02:50 AM Oh it fits, alright. It fits BIG TIME! But seriously: who else beside a handful of you will continue to support MPcoin? Seriously!? It will turn into an altcoin, right? even worse: an sha265 alt... with a strong bitcoin with much much more hashrate this alt wouldnt survive long and wouldnt be safe from 51% attacks Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 01:05:21 AM happy major? dont you think its a little bit stupid to assume that 20mb blocks are filled immediatly as soon as they start to exists if atm 1mb blocks are not filled? and dont forget miners are also people: if they think it should stay at 5mb it will be there... so there is no "automatic" doomsday scenario you say 1mb blocks aren't filled atm - correct. So there is obviously no need to scale up yet if you introduce 20mb blocks ahead of demand thefollowing traffic will take hold: - microstransactions for all kinds of nonsense - parasitic services like counterparty that fill the blocks - malicious spam 20MB will be filled in no time Oh it fits, alright. It fits BIG TIME! But seriously: who else besides a handful of you will continue to support MPcoin? Seriously!? It will turn into an altcoin, right? Edit: or a sidechain?? I won't support any of the coins I support bitcoin right now and since Mpcoin is Bitcoin and i don't have consensus on the fork i support Bitcoin of course. Once the chaos occures i will not be holding bitcoin anymore same as most people - i am not interested to get caught in this shit Your assumption Mpcoin will turn to an altcoin is likely wrong because it is the integer Bitcoin blockchain (unforked) Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 01:05:44 AM ^^^ misinfo/disinfo what a compelling counter argument to the facts I presented. bravo. man, people need to inform themselves. I really don't have the nerves to refute all propaganda 10 times. You say 'there is only one bitcoin' correct and that's Mpcoin as it is the unforked chain and 1 to 1 bitcoin of today. Gavincoin is per definition a fork of bitcoin and thus an altcoin. (to put it really short) you trying to tell people a second fork wouldn't exist is wrong information. Why do you keep trying to rename bitcoin, what is your agenda. Its almost as if you are trying to frighten people, make them feel uncertain about bitcoin's future so they doubt it will succeed. In actual fact, you trying to tell people a second fork will exist, is blatant speculation! What's interesting is that your repeated use of the term 'hard fork' shows that you pay more attention to the media than to the facts. The term is used by media outlets because it carries gravitas, it generates click through revenue, it 'sells papers'. What Gavin is proposing is an update to bitcoin core that allows for larger blocks - that is not a 'hard fork', despite what you read in the papers. The deployment of the update can be properly managed so as to create minimum disruption to all of those with a vested interest in the continued success of bitcoin, just as satoshi described. What you actually mean is a blockchain fork. This is not something Gavin can do, or even MP in his omnipotence! A fork is just what happens when miners haven't yet reached consensus, eventually they do and one of the chains becomes orphaned and every one just carries on. Here are two axiomatic truths. There will always exist bad actors. There will always be innocent people that just forget to upgrade. What the bad actors here are trying to do, is subvert the upgrade process by trying to fork the blockchain by only accepting smaller blocks. The bad actors will intentionally not upgrade, and will take advantage of the fact that there are innocent people who have forgotten to upgrade and recruit there hashing power. (of course they will also then try to argue that all of these people are 'supporters') The thing is, in reality those chains will too become orphaned in time. That too is mathematically certain. The only way this cannot happen is if the bad actors are able to pull off a 50% attack... Now is that really what you are suggesting that you would do just to stop this change from being implemented? MP is super smart but an egomaniac with it, which makes his his blog (http://trilema.com) blog a great read! (I'm serious btw). Only he would try and hard fork the blockchain just to get his own way! ... whilst all the time accusing everyone else of being the villains :) Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 01:07:21 AM Oh it fits, alright. It fits BIG TIME! But seriously: who else beside a handful of you will continue to support MPcoin? Seriously!? It will turn into an altcoin, right? even worse: an sha265 alt... with a strong bitcoin with much much more hashrate this alt wouldnt survive long and wouldnt be safe from 51% attacks on the other hand transactions on gavincoin wouldn't be safe I think there's a fair chance miners don't leave the Bitcoin chain for gavincoin or return to the original chain once gavincoin has been shown to not be viable Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorebtc on February 07, 2015, 01:07:41 AM you say 1mb blocks aren't filled atm - correct. So there is obviously no need to scale up yet as i said before an hard fork needs to be planned a long time ahead. if there is a need it is already too late by 6months (minimum) edit: i cant imagine transactions more micro than faucets - and even they work with 1mb... so where are those microtransactions coming from? btc gots more adoption by fee paying participants? GREAT! if they would just spam no miner would include their transactions Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 01:08:03 AM I don't plan on supporting the fork. I want more proposals and more options besides just gavins that obviously doesn't have the full community support. If there is going to be a hard fork; there are other things that need done at that time as well to prevent future hard forks from happening within the next decade again. +1 the whole approach is bullshit so far - no other proposals - no consensus - not even an urgent need to fork (some supporters of the gavinfork want tell you that it would be urgent but that has been shown to be wrong) ----------- basically the community is devided in the people who think and talk sense and know the original purpose of the coin aswell as have a basic understanding of the tech and on the other side is the camp of the greedy sheep who don't give a fuck and tell everyone "just follow in line" ----------- people need to inform themselves to protect their finances and be able to make educated decisions. The change has to happen a long time before its needed to make sure everyone has time to upgrade. Do keep up. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 01:09:13 AM ^^^ misinfo/disinfo what a compelling counter argument to the facts I presented. bravo. man, people need to inform themselves. I really don't have the nerves to refute all propaganda 10 times. You say 'there is only one bitcoin' correct and that's Mpcoin as it is the unforked chain and 1 to 1 bitcoin of today. Gavincoin is per definition a fork of bitcoin and thus an altcoin. (to put it really short) you trying to tell people a second fork wouldn't exist is wrong information. Why do you keep trying to rename bitcoin, what is your agenda. Its almost as if you are trying to frighten people, make them feel uncertain about bitcoin's future so they doubt it will succeed. In actual fact, you trying to tell people a second for will exist, is blatant speculation! What's interesting is that your repeated use of the term 'hard fork' shows that you pay more attention to the media than to the facts. The term is used by media outlets because it carries gravitas, it generates click through revenue, it 'sells papers'. What Gavin is proposing is an update to bitcoin core that allows for larger blocks - that is not a 'hard fork', despite what you read in the papers. The deployment of the update can be properly managed so as to create minimum disruption to all of those with a vested interest in the continued success of bitcoin, just as satoshi described. What you actually mean is a blockchain fork. This is not something Gavin can do, or even MP in his omnipotence! A fork is just what happens when miners haven't yet reached consensus, eventually they do and one of the chains becomes orphaned and every one just carries on. Here are two axiomatic truths. There will always exist bad actors. There will always be innocent people that just forget to upgrade. What the bad actors here are trying to do, is subvert the upgrade process by trying to fork the blockchain by only accepting smaller blocks. The bad actors will intentionally not upgrade, and will take advantage of the fact that there are innocent people who have forgotten to upgrade and recruit there hashing power. (of course they will also then try to argue that all of these people are 'supporters') The thing is, in reality those chains will too become orphaned in time. That too is mathematically certain. The only way this cannot happen is if the bad actors are able to pull off a 50% attack... Now is that really what you are suggesting that you would do just to stop this change from being implemented? MP is super smart but an egomaniac with it, which makes his his blog (http://trilema.com) blog a great read! (I'm serious btw). Only he would try and hard fork the blockchain just to get his own way! ... whilst all the time accusing everyone else of being the villains :) Bitcoin is Bitcoin Gavincoin is not Bitcoin ----------- but i really loose patience here for the brain spasm - i go back to trading. Maybe i check back in once having better mood for educating some sheep Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorebtc on February 07, 2015, 01:10:47 AM Bitcoin is Bitcoin Gavincoin is not Bitcoin ----------- but i really loose patience here for the brain spasm - i go back to trading. Maybe i check back in once having better mood for educating some sheep infact bitcoin is what bitcoin.org and the github repo says it is... bitcoin core defines the protocol and gavin happens to be one of the people able to change it. if he changes it: YOU/MP need to fork bitcoin repo to something else ;) Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 01:12:32 AM hehehe
Gavincoin will be very centralised Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorebtc on February 07, 2015, 01:14:18 AM hehehe Gavincoin will be very centralised says one of mpcoin-advocates with probably 6 holders and miners ;) Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 01:15:29 AM here is the threads for the people who want to get educated: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=919629.0 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=941331.0 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946236.0 Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 01:17:16 AM i found this one interesting too:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=945604.0 Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: ElectricMucus on February 07, 2015, 01:20:38 AM Let them do it, set the precedent, sit back relax and watch it go down the slippery slope over the decade.
Perhaps long after reversible transactions, inflation/deflation according to economic factors and a more sane transaction storage practice are in it finally becomes a usable payment system one can call a currency. Nobody except the victims of the pump & dump will shed a tear about the fixed coin supply if there is real economic growth. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 01:24:22 AM Let them do it, sit back relax and watch it go down the slippery slope over the decade. Perhaps long after reversible transactions, inflation/deflation according to economic factors and a more sane transaction storage practice are in it finally becomes a usable payment system one can call a currency. Nobody except the victims of the pump & dump will shed a tear about the fixed coin supply if there is real economic growth. interesting approach What you describe there is certainly not the bitcoin people sign up for today though. But i'll probably personally really take the approach of sitting back and relaxing. Speculating on alts just became a lot more rational. I'm pretty confident the original Bitcoin chain will live on for decades though. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 01:33:52 AM You have posted a lot that you don't want gavin's update but you haven't actually posted why.
All you have done is repeatedly assured us that if the update goes in then MP will try to fork the blockchain. I know why MP doesn't want the change, he's made it perfectly clear. I don't agree with him, but it's his opinion so I respect that. We just want different things out of bitcoin. Why don't you actually want the change? Hint: "Because it will fork the blockchain" isn't an answer, its at best FUD at worst a threat. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: ElectricMucus on February 07, 2015, 01:34:19 AM Let them do it, sit back relax and watch it go down the slippery slope over the decade. Perhaps long after reversible transactions, inflation/deflation according to economic factors and a more sane transaction storage practice are in it finally becomes a usable payment system one can call a currency. Nobody except the victims of the pump & dump will shed a tear about the fixed coin supply if there is real economic growth. interesting approach What you describe there is certainly not the bitcoin people sign up for today though. But i'll probably personally really take the approach of sitting back and relaxing. Speculating on alts just became a lot more rational. I'm pretty confident the original Bitcoin chain will live on for decades though. Here is the thing: Nobody required them to to sign up for anything, not satoshi, gavin, the bitcoin foundation or mark karpeles. And it does matter what people decide to be Bitcoin in the future, innovations don't happen inevitably. It happens only if a majority of the people realize they need it and if the people who have the necessary skills to innovate decide to work on it. Take things like the electric car or the electronic cigarette. The concepts were around for decades but they started to become a thing just a few years ago. That happened not because an inevitable trend but because a few people decided to do it and many others saw how good it is and started using it. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorebtc on February 07, 2015, 01:36:16 AM I know why MP doesn't want the change, he's made it perfectly clear. I don't agree with him, but it's his opinion so I respect that. We just want different things out of bitcoin. afaik he (over-)invested in a bitcoin device which would not be able to handle bigger blocks? did you hear sth else? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: homo homini lupus on February 07, 2015, 01:38:23 AM You have posted a lot that you don't want gavin's update but you haven't actually posted why. All you have done is repeatedly assured us that if the update goes in then MP will try to fork the blockchain. I know why MP doesn't want the change, he's made it perfectly clear. I don't agree with him, but it's his opinion so I respect that. We just want different things out of bitcoin. Why don't you actually want the change? Hint: "Because it will fork the blockchain" isn't an answer, its at best FUD at worst a threat. you loose me the moment you fix a system that isn't broken without consensus on it ahead of actual demand the 'innovation' is causing chaos and being wasteful with HD recources of users it's no innovation at all i don't see me downloading 2.8GB every day just to sync up - and i know almost nobody will do that, that's why gavincoin will be the loosing fork (that was the basic point of the thread) Let them do it, sit back relax and watch it go down the slippery slope over the decade. Perhaps long after reversible transactions, inflation/deflation according to economic factors and a more sane transaction storage practice are in it finally becomes a usable payment system one can call a currency. Nobody except the victims of the pump & dump will shed a tear about the fixed coin supply if there is real economic growth. interesting approach What you describe there is certainly not the bitcoin people sign up for today though. But i'll probably personally really take the approach of sitting back and relaxing. Speculating on alts just became a lot more rational. I'm pretty confident the original Bitcoin chain will live on for decades though. Here i the thing: Nobody required them to to sign up for anything, not satoshi, gavin, the bitcoin foundation or mark karpeles. And it does matter what people decide to be Bitcoin in the future, innovations don't happen inevitably. It happens only if a majority of the people realize they need it and if the people who have the necessary skills to innovate decide to work together. correct Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on February 07, 2015, 01:45:34 AM I know why MP doesn't want the change, he's made it perfectly clear. I don't agree with him, but it's his opinion so I respect that. We just want different things out of bitcoin. afaik he (over-)invested in a bitcoin device which would not be able to handle bigger blocks? did you hear sth else? Link? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 02:05:14 AM I know why MP doesn't want the change, he's made it perfectly clear. I don't agree with him, but it's his opinion so I respect that. We just want different things out of bitcoin. afaik he (over-)invested in a bitcoin device which would not be able to handle bigger blocks? did you hear sth else? More simple, he posted on his blog. details here (http://trilema.com/2015/lets-address-some-of-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/) In summary, he believes bitcoin is something that only the wealthy should want/need to use and that it isn't meant to be for everyone. Hence why he sees no need for the change. I believe bitcoin is new money, and for it to work as such then every transaction ever goes on the blockchain. Which is why I think we do need the update. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorebtc on February 07, 2015, 02:07:40 AM I know why MP doesn't want the change, he's made it perfectly clear. I don't agree with him, but it's his opinion so I respect that. We just want different things out of bitcoin. afaik he (over-)invested in a bitcoin device which would not be able to handle bigger blocks? did you hear sth else? More simple, he posted on his blog. details here (http://trilema.com/2015/lets-address-some-of-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/) In summary, he believes bitcoin is something that only the wealthy should want/need to use and that it isn't meant to be for everyone. Hence why he sees no need for the change. I believe bitcoin is new money, and for it to work as such then every transaction ever goes on the blockchain. Which is why I think we do need the update. ok, thanks I know why MP doesn't want the change, he's made it perfectly clear. I don't agree with him, but it's his opinion so I respect that. We just want different things out of bitcoin. afaik he (over-)invested in a bitcoin device which would not be able to handle bigger blocks? did you hear sth else? Link? sorry cant help you with that - and you shouldnt take it for real. i've read it here on btct somewhere. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: podyx on February 07, 2015, 02:19:37 AM Gavincoin? Hardfork?
What are you guys talking about... Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 02:34:04 AM You have posted a lot that you don't want gavin's update but you haven't actually posted why. All you have done is repeatedly assured us that if the update goes in then MP will try to fork the blockchain. I know why MP doesn't want the change, he's made it perfectly clear. I don't agree with him, but it's his opinion so I respect that. We just want different things out of bitcoin. Why don't you actually want the change? Hint: "Because it will fork the blockchain" isn't an answer, its at best FUD at worst a threat. you loose me the moment you fix a system that isn't broken without consensus on it ahead of actual demand the 'innovation' is causing chaos and being wasteful with HD recources of users it's no innovation at all i don't see me downloading 2.8GB every day just to sync up - and i know almost nobody will do that, that's why gavincoin will be the loosing fork (that was the basic point of the thread) Let them do it, sit back relax and watch it go down the slippery slope over the decade. Perhaps long after reversible transactions, inflation/deflation according to economic factors and a more sane transaction storage practice are in it finally becomes a usable payment system one can call a currency. Nobody except the victims of the pump & dump will shed a tear about the fixed coin supply if there is real economic growth. interesting approach What you describe there is certainly not the bitcoin people sign up for today though. But i'll probably personally really take the approach of sitting back and relaxing. Speculating on alts just became a lot more rational. I'm pretty confident the original Bitcoin chain will live on for decades though. Here i the thing: Nobody required them to to sign up for anything, not satoshi, gavin, the bitcoin foundation or mark karpeles. And it does matter what people decide to be Bitcoin in the future, innovations don't happen inevitably. It happens only if a majority of the people realize they need it and if the people who have the necessary skills to innovate decide to work together. correct You keep doing this thing where you argue one thing, but then use the opposite premise to argue another thing. You seem really confused. On the one hand you keep saying that we are nowhere near 1MB blocks yet, so why do the change? On the other hand you keep saying that if we do the change that you don't want to download 2.8GB a day (which is every block maxed out at ~20MB) 20MB blocks aren't suddenly going to fill up, despite your wild assertions they suddenly will. As you have already said the 1MB blocks aren't being used. So your data usage isn't going to spike suddenly. Then there are the next round of updates, the ones that actually reduce bandwidth usage and initial blockchain download times. Pretty compelling reasons to upgrade. Which means that by the time we actually need >1MB blocks, the majority (not everyone, you were right) will have upgraded. Theres a subtle difference between consensus and majority. what is happening is that it is being discussed now so that in can be implemented in good time to make sure that all of the bad things you say might happen won't. The way consensus is reached in the blockchain is that first a majority of nodes agree, then anyone that didn't agree is financially incentivised to go with the longer chain and so discards there shorter chain. Thus consensus is reached. Thats what will happen with this update. Provided the majority agree, the change will go in. At which point you are free to refuse to upgrade. By the time it actually becomes necessary to mine >1MB blocks the majority will have upgraded. So the MP blockchain fork can go right ahead for as long as it likes until those involved realise they'd be better off mining *actual* bitcoin, like the majority. Then consensus will once again be reached. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 02:38:20 AM Gavincoin? Hardfork? What are you guys talking about... OP is confused by and scared of the proposal to increase block size. So is trying to recruit people to try and create a fork of the bitcoin blockchain that they want to call MPcoin. He is also campaigning to get Bitcoin renamed to Gavincoin. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Bit_Happy on February 07, 2015, 02:45:39 AM Gavincoin? Hardfork? What are you guys talking about... OP is trying to do damage, but there is no real problem updating Bitcoins' code. The large mining pools control the network, and in this case, they can be trusted. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: BlindMayorBitcorn on February 07, 2015, 03:31:35 AM Gavincoin? Hardfork? What are you guys talking about... Well, the Bitcoin blockchain you know and love so much is going into the ashbin of history and is going to be replaced by a new blockchain called Bitcoin. OP is being a whiny baby about it because he's too lazy to update. If OP is speaking on behalf of MP, he has a lot more at stake here than all that. How many bitcoins is Mr. Popescu estimated to have? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: RoadStress on February 07, 2015, 03:46:55 AM Why? Because there are no users for the bloatcoin. People won't adopt it. They'll go for alts with smaller bloatchains. This fucktard keeps pumping the bloatchain argument just like MP. So either you like to take it in the ass from MP or either you are an ultra retard. THE BLOATCHAIN ISN'T AN ISSUE. IT CAN BE SOLVED YOU DUMB FUCKTARD! What other reasons do you have for not forking? YOU DON'T! Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: RoadStress on February 07, 2015, 03:49:27 AM ^^^ misinfo/disinfo what a compelling counter argument to the facts I presented. bravo. He always does that. He only throws shit and eat shit. He has nothing else other than MP's dick in his butt. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: RoadStress on February 07, 2015, 03:54:59 AM More simple, he posted on his blog. details here (http://trilema.com/2015/lets-address-some-of-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/) In summary, he believes bitcoin is something that only the wealthy should want/need to use and that it isn't meant to be for everyone. Hence why he sees no need for the change. I did post my view on MP's post here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=941331.msg10377700#msg10377700 and will re post it for visibility MP is a sensationalist and he likes drama and attention. In my view in business and in ecosystems there are no people, there are only ideas. Starting his article mentioning the person behind the idea is simply bad intended from the start. Right after that he starts praising MPEx which again has absolutely nothing related to the main idea and to the main subject of a bigger block size. After filling half of the article with useless nonsense about MPEx he reverts to a journalistic move in order to divert the attention from the subject which is to reveal something sensational and he chose to reveal that regular users will need 914TB of storage in order to pay for their coffee. I have already answered to this stupid and non-existing issue. We will develop a way of not needing that amount of storage for regular coffee buyers. Afterwards he starts pushing his view of the blockchain. For a decentralized thing people trying to limit things their way isn't so good. Gavin is only trying to not limit things and to have large open doors for everyone. Keeping a 1MB block limit is a bad intended and limiting move. In the end of the shit article MP closes with: Quote If Bitcoin can't pay for its own security, it is best to find this out sooner rather than later. Bitcoin security will be insured by the services running on top of it and allowing services to run on top of Bitcoin by increasing the block size limit will definitely insure security no matter what. P.S. Sorry for the post spam. It's for better visibility. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: karolina on February 07, 2015, 04:00:49 AM You wanna know why I know the OP is trolling/an idiot?
It took us 6 years to hit a blockchain 30 GB in size. Now OP is making claims that the blockchain will suddenly grow more than 30GB every two weeks if the 20m cap is implemented. (2.8GB/day). I don't even wanna...... You can fit all 6 years of transactions on a $50 1TB hard drive, over thirty times lol... Nothing to worry about. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: RoadStress on February 07, 2015, 04:16:06 AM You wanna know why I know the OP is trolling/an idiot? It took us 6 years to hit a blockchain 30 GB in size. Now OP is making claims that the blockchain will suddenly grow more than 30GB every two weeks if the 20m cap is implemented. (2.8GB/day). I don't even wanna...... You can fit all 6 years of transactions on a $50 1TB hard drive, over thirty times lol... Nothing to worry about. He is also claiming that the blocks will fill from the first day we hard fork (which will happen in a minimum of 6 months I guess). He is claiming a lot, but he fails to have valid points and he also fails to back his statements. He only throws and eats shit from his master MP. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: karolina on February 07, 2015, 05:26:04 AM I'm sure 5 years from now, 4TB SSD's will be cheap enough that the common PC will have them.
I'm also sure that Google Fiber (or similar services) will be a lot more common around the world as well, boasting speeds of 1 Gbps or higher. In any case, there is way too much vested interest to just let Bitcoin fail. The software will simply continue to adapt and evolve. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: knight22 on February 07, 2015, 06:07:39 AM Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: kwukduck on February 07, 2015, 07:13:11 AM It's not completely without risk, but i did some more reading.
It seems this will be very carefully planned in phases, yet unknown when. It's also the only real option we have for bitcoin to make it future proof. I would like to have seen a more 'smart' solution though than just increasing the blocksize. Something that will automatically scale on demand, like the difficulty. All in all it's not as bad as some here would have us believe. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Q7 on February 07, 2015, 07:43:52 AM Come on, do we need to show that level of sarcasm? Fact is, if we don't do it now to increase the size, when will we? Just need to start to plan for the future and I see this is as one of the solution.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: zimmah on February 07, 2015, 07:48:21 AM ^^^ misinfo/disinfo what a compelling counter argument to the facts I presented. bravo. Just put this troll on ignore, your arguments are completely valid, and beyond his level of comprehension apperaantly. I have explained exactly what you said, in several posts across several threads, and mainly this lupus guy responds with his bullshit. He's pretty much the only one who thinks that way, and I wouldn't be surprised if the others are just his alts. Bitcoin needs to upgrade to advance, and it needs to do so soon. We can't risk having bitcoin collapse under the 1mb limit when the next surge of new users come in. Which for all we know could happen tomorrow. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: inca on February 07, 2015, 09:26:04 AM It's not completely without risk, but i did some more reading. It seems this will be very carefully planned in phases, yet unknown when. It's also the only real option we have for bitcoin to make it future proof. I would like to have seen a more 'smart' solution though than just increasing the blocksize. Something that will automatically scale on demand, like the difficulty. All in all it's not as bad as some here would have us believe. This is the second post of yours when you are being reasonable rather than a book talking doomer troll. I can't speak for the rest of the forum but I like you better when you aren't transparently trying to manipulate the price... Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: 8up on February 07, 2015, 09:28:22 AM It's not completely without risk, but i did some more reading. It seems this will be very carefully planned in phases, yet unknown when. It's also the only real option we have for bitcoin to make it future proof. I would like to have seen a more 'smart' solution though than just increasing the blocksize. Something that will automatically scale on demand, like the difficulty. All in all it's not as bad as some here would have us believe. This is the second post of yours when you are being reasonable rather than a book talking doomer troll. I can't speak for the rest of the forum but I like you better when you aren't transparently trying to manipulate the price... +1 Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: tss on February 07, 2015, 09:33:16 AM sad to see the responses here.. check here for reason
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946745.0 upgrade yes. bloat, no. we're no where near any limits and markets SHOULD decide themselves. please lets not let others abuse the bitcoin blockchain. btc blockchain is for btc transactions ONLY. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: RoadStress on February 07, 2015, 02:55:09 PM i don't see me downloading 2.8GB every day just to sync up - and i know almost nobody will do that, that's why gavincoin will be the loosing fork (that was the basic point of the thread) HEY RETARD! YOU WILL NOT NEED TO DOWNLOAD 2.8 GB EVERY DAY JUST TO SYNC UP! IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: inca on February 07, 2015, 02:59:42 PM i don't see me downloading 2.8GB every day just to sync up - and i know almost nobody will do that, that's why gavincoin will be the loosing fork (that was the basic point of the thread) HEY RETARD! YOU WILL NOT NEED TO DOWNLOAD 2.8 GB EVERY DAY JUST TO SYNC UP! IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? He does understand. Anyone taking the time to perpetuate a thread like this knows exactly what they are posting even if it is full of deliberate mistruths. Thinking it will exert any market influence - now that is retarded! Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: ElectricMucus on February 07, 2015, 03:11:58 PM sad to see the responses here.. check here for reason It's for anything miners include into a blockhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946745.0 upgrade yes. bloat, no. we're no where near any limits and markets SHOULD decide themselves. please lets not let others abuse the bitcoin blockchain. btc blockchain is for btc transactions ONLY. That's how Bitcoin works, miners can include anything they want into blocks and the only mechanism bitcoiners have to incentive them is including fees. As far I know there is no mechanism in place to ensure data in the blockchain contains any transactions at all. It could be just my personal photos I'd want to be backed up and if I pay enough fees miners will probably add them to the blockchain. You can argue there should be such a mechanism ensuring blocks are made up of transaction data, and I'd agree. That would require yet another hardfork. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: redsn0w on February 07, 2015, 03:13:41 PM i don't see me downloading 2.8GB every day just to sync up - and i know almost nobody will do that, that's why gavincoin will be the loosing fork (that was the basic point of the thread) HEY RETARD! YOU WILL NOT NEED TO DOWNLOAD 2.8 GB EVERY DAY JUST TO SYNC UP! IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? You made my day :D. However I think we need the hardfork, let see if all the bitcoiners will follow it or not. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Bit_Happy on February 07, 2015, 03:42:39 PM Gavincoin is so scary, will Satoshi arrive in time to help us? ::) Seriously, we need a sub-forum for obvious trolls. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: RoadStress on February 07, 2015, 03:49:51 PM You made my day :D. However I think we need the hardfork, let see if all the bitcoiners will follow it or not. Of course! I am PRO raising the limits especially when there are no arguments besides the minor technical limits of a bloatchain which can be solved. I am also a hobbyist miner and I think that trying to impose higher fees with a 1MB block limit is simply retarted. Because Bitcoin may go to 10$ and we will be again in this position where the miners will barely afford to run miners. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 07, 2015, 04:14:18 PM I wonder if OP is geninuely a dumdum or MP is paying for him to be? :D
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Muuurrrrica! on February 07, 2015, 04:15:39 PM Bitcoin has hit a dead end
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 07, 2015, 04:16:51 PM Bitcoin has hit a dead end Looks like it's trying to evolve and move on to me. But then I don't walk around with my eyes shut.Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Muuurrrrica! on February 07, 2015, 04:18:48 PM Forking without consensus and forking even the community is no evolution but a dead end. The hubris is going to kill it.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: redsn0w on February 07, 2015, 04:19:07 PM You made my day :D. However I think we need the hardfork, let see if all the bitcoiners will follow it or not. Of course! I am PRO raising the limits especially when there are no arguments besides the minor technical limits of a bloatchain which can be solved. I am also a hobbyist miner and I think that trying to impose higher fees with a 1MB block limit is simply retarted. Because Bitcoin may go to 10$ and we will be again in this position where the miners will barely afford to run miners. I think the same, who is supporting the bitcon network (blockchain) ? Obviously the answer is "The miners*". This hard-fork will "obligate" all the other bitcoiners to pay an adeguate fee for a "fast" confirm of the transaction. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Muuurrrrica! on February 07, 2015, 04:22:51 PM Gavincoin? Hardfork? What are you guys talking about... Well, the Bitcoin blockchain you know and love so much is going into the ashbin of history and is going to be replaced by a new blockchain called Bitcoin. OP is being a whiny baby about it because he's too lazy to update. Well, that's not true. The old bitcoin chain everyone loves right now will continue to be mined and function normal and the original Bitcoin will live on. Gavincoin is a stupid fork of it and the supporters of that fork are going to try to tell the noobs it would be 'Bitcoin' but it won't be - everyone who isn't totally blind can see that. Gavincoin supporters will even deny the existance of the original Bitcoin as is already seen here on the thread. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: redsn0w on February 07, 2015, 04:25:21 PM Gavincoin? Hardfork? What are you guys talking about... Well, the Bitcoin blockchain you know and love so much is going into the ashbin of history and is going to be replaced by a new blockchain called Bitcoin. OP is being a whiny baby about it because he's too lazy to update. Well, that's not true. The old bitcoin chain everyone loves right now will continue to be mined and function normal and the original Bitcoin will live on. Gavincoin is a stupid fork of it and the supporters of that fork are going to try to tell the noobs it would be 'Bitcoin' but it won't be - everyone who isn't totally blind can see that. Gavincoin supporters will even deny the existance of the original Bitcoin as is already seen here on the thread. The fork consists only to "rise" the blocksize from 1 MB to 20 MB, it is not a drama. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Muuurrrrica! on February 07, 2015, 04:28:40 PM Gavincoin? Hardfork? What are you guys talking about... Well, the Bitcoin blockchain you know and love so much is going into the ashbin of history and is going to be replaced by a new blockchain called Bitcoin. OP is being a whiny baby about it because he's too lazy to update. Well, that's not true. The old bitcoin chain everyone loves right now will continue to be mined and function normal and the original Bitcoin will live on. Gavincoin is a stupid fork of it and the supporters of that fork are going to try to tell the noobs it would be 'Bitcoin' but it won't be - everyone who isn't totally blind can see that. Gavincoin supporters will even deny the existance of the original Bitcoin as is already seen here on the thread. The fork consists only to "rise" the blocksize from 1 MB to 20 MB, it is not a drama. Well, for some it appears idiotic at this point in time. We don't need to discuss it actually. Everyone just supports the chain he/she likes. The only thing that's certain is: Gavincoin won't be able to call itself 'Bitcoin' Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: redsn0w on February 07, 2015, 04:33:06 PM Gavincoin? Hardfork? What are you guys talking about... Well, the Bitcoin blockchain you know and love so much is going into the ashbin of history and is going to be replaced by a new blockchain called Bitcoin. OP is being a whiny baby about it because he's too lazy to update. Well, that's not true. The old bitcoin chain everyone loves right now will continue to be mined and function normal and the original Bitcoin will live on. Gavincoin is a stupid fork of it and the supporters of that fork are going to try to tell the noobs it would be 'Bitcoin' but it won't be - everyone who isn't totally blind can see that. Gavincoin supporters will even deny the existance of the original Bitcoin as is already seen here on the thread. The fork consists only to "rise" the blocksize from 1 MB to 20 MB, it is not a drama. Well, for some it appears idiotic at this point in time. We don't need to discuss it actually. Everyone just supports the chain he/she likes. The only thing that's certain is: Gavincoin won't be able to call itself 'Bitcoin' I think also with the fork it will be called "bitcoin" , why gavinCoin? If you will not want follow the fork, good ... rest in the actual chain. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: manselr on February 07, 2015, 04:33:42 PM Fuck sakes, if Satoshi was so smart why the hell didn't he add 20 MB by default? he would have saved us from this mess. Geeeeez.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: erre on February 07, 2015, 04:34:39 PM When will it be?
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 07, 2015, 04:36:08 PM Gavincoin? Hardfork? What are you guys talking about... Well, the Bitcoin blockchain you know and love so much is going into the ashbin of history and is going to be replaced by a new blockchain called Bitcoin. OP is being a whiny baby about it because he's too lazy to update. Well, that's not true. The old bitcoin chain everyone loves right now will continue to be mined and function normal and the original Bitcoin will live on. Gavincoin is a stupid fork of it and the supporters of that fork are going to try to tell the noobs it would be 'Bitcoin' but it won't be - everyone who isn't totally blind can see that. Gavincoin supporters will even deny the existance of the original Bitcoin as is already seen here on the thread. This is deliberate misinformation. Bitcoin will just upgrade to a 20MB block cap size instead of the current temporary 1MB one we are using now, as per the original plan. The so called "MPcoin" cannot be bitcoin because it will have a permanent block cap size and bitcoin has never had a permanent block cap size. It will be just an altcoin, same as all the rest. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Muuurrrrica! on February 07, 2015, 04:37:08 PM As a matter of fact after the fork there will be two chains, two coins who both will go by the name 'Bitcoin'. The original chain (1MB) will carry that name rightfully, the Gavincoin chain (20MB) won't but the supporters of that chain will still try to use the name.
A sideeffect of this is: there will be twice as many Bitcoin suddenly. I'd expect those two chains to both become relatively cheap coins as marketcap would be distributed between them. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: coinableS on February 07, 2015, 04:37:29 PM When will it be? I second this question, when is this happening? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Muuurrrrica! on February 07, 2015, 04:39:57 PM When will it be? I second this question, when is this happening? There isn't a date right now. We all still hope some rationality will take hold and it is dropped for good. If there was a date given for the fork you could expect this place to be on fire aswell as the markets. It'll be mayhem. In all this discussion we haven't heard a word from the chinese community so far. It'll be interesting what they think as they control a large part of the ecosystem. I don't think they will just accept it. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 07, 2015, 04:55:11 PM As a matter of fact after the fork there will be two chains, two coins who both will go by the name 'Bitcoin'. The original chain (1MB) will carry that name rightfully, the Gavincoin chain (20MB) won't but the supporters of that chain will still try to use the name. To be fair whatever chain has the majority will take the crown of "bitcoin". I just hope the minority chain has the losing sportsmanship to rename themselves to something other than bitcoin and not sulk. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: NotLambchop on February 07, 2015, 04:56:27 PM When will it be? I second this question, when is this happening? When it happens, Gavin will tell you. All further relevant information shall be dispersed through official developer-approved channels. Return to your homes and keep to your daily routine. Foreign agents and provocateurs will be shot on sight. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 07, 2015, 05:22:09 PM When will it be? I second this question, when is this happening? There is no set time at the moment but don't worry, you'll hear about it when the fork occurs. The bitcoin update will be announced and those that update will and those that don't want to won't. Everything will still work normally until a block exceeds 1MB (which will be unpredictable.) If say you had 100 coins before the fork, afterwards you will have 100 coins of 1MB fork and 100 coins of the 20MB. They are NOT interchangeable. The big question would be then is what chain would you ACCEPT coins from? Obviously anyone with more than 1 braincell would only accept coins as the true bitcoin from the chain the majority have chosen. If it goes 50/50 however, things could get ugly. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Pecunia non olet on February 07, 2015, 05:47:05 PM i won't be using Gavincoin - and you can not force me to it
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: DeathAndTaxes on February 07, 2015, 05:48:26 PM Fuck sakes, if Satoshi was so smart why the hell didn't he add 20 MB by default? he would have saved us from this mess. Geeeeez. Satoshi had no limit on block sizes at all. From block 1 it was legal to have a 2MB, 20MB, even 33MB block. There was a 33.5MB limit on message length and since blocks are transmitted as a single message it would have limited blocks to only 33.5MB but even this wasn't a hard limit as new message type could have been added which transmitted blocks in other ways (i.e. header & txn hashes vs full transactions). The 1MB "limit" was added as a temporary anti-spam measure 18 months later. There was no voting, no significant discussion, and the commit wasn't made by Satoshi. It actually was combined with a bunch of other unrelated changes and not even well documented at the time. There is nothing which indicates this was a core design decision that Bitcoin would perpetually be limited to 1MB. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 06:13:44 PM i won't be using Gavincoin - and you can not force me to it *stamps feet* Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Pecunia non olet on February 07, 2015, 06:16:57 PM i won't be using Gavincoin - and you can not force me to it *stamps feet* not stamping feet. Grinning from ear to ear http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/aliceinwonderland/images/0/02/Chessur.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130505014547 I'm a free person and i choose what i like ;) You won't dictate to me. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 07, 2015, 06:17:08 PM i won't be using Gavincoin - and you can not force me to it Nobody has suggested you are forced to use it.Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: redsn0w on February 07, 2015, 06:17:17 PM i won't be using Gavincoin - and you can not force me to it Yes of course you are free to do whatever you want , if the devs will make this hard fork only those who want will follow it (#decentralization). Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Pecunia non olet on February 07, 2015, 06:18:38 PM i won't be using Gavincoin - and you can not force me to it Yes of course you are free to do whatever you want , if the devs will make this hard fork only those who want will follow it (#decentralization). It's not decentralisation but fragmentation I'm pretty sure though it will be dropped. If it won't that's going to be a hell of a show. I'll be in Litecoin that day. :D Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: redsn0w on February 07, 2015, 06:20:42 PM i won't be using Gavincoin - and you can not force me to it Yes of course you are free to do whatever you want , if the devs will make this hard fork only those who want will follow it (#decentralization). it's not decentralisation but fragmentation fragmentation is a part of decentralization, it is not a drama ... only 20 mb per block. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Pecunia non olet on February 07, 2015, 06:22:23 PM i won't be using Gavincoin - and you can not force me to it Yes of course you are free to do whatever you want , if the devs will make this hard fork only those who want will follow it (#decentralization). it's not decentralisation but fragmentation fragmentation is a part of decentralization, it is not a drama ... only 20 mb per block. whatever your twisted mind tells you, fine with me Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorebtc on February 07, 2015, 06:50:33 PM I would like to have seen a more 'smart' solution though than just increasing the blocksize. Something that will automatically scale on demand, like the difficulty. i favour to completly remove the limit (including the ~30mb message size one) and let miners decide - if the blockchain gets to big i expect them to make countermeasures because its in their interest to keep bitcoin going. so i dont think we dont need any limit at all. any hardcoded limit may fail, any formula might fail (because we cant predict the future). but i trust people who need bitcoin to survive to make decisions to keep bitcoin alive (=miners) Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: BCwinning on February 07, 2015, 06:51:52 PM Why 20? why not 40 60 80 or 100?
Why not make it dynamic. Oh because it's gavins way or the highway Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: redsn0w on February 07, 2015, 06:53:18 PM Why 20? why not 40 60 80 or 100? Why not make it dynamic. Oh because it's gavins way or the highway I think 20 mb is a good second limit, we will see what happen, but I think it will be a good thing. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: BCwinning on February 07, 2015, 07:02:24 PM Why 20? why not 40 60 80 or 100? Why not make it dynamic. Oh because it's gavins way or the highway I think 20 mb is a good second limit, we will see what happen, but I think it will be a good thing. I think it will be a good thing. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Pecunia non olet on February 07, 2015, 07:05:08 PM it's gavins way or the highway you got it http://ih2.redbubble.net/image.26900284.5311/sticker,220x200-pad,220x200,ffffff.u2.png Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Pecunia non olet on February 07, 2015, 07:47:08 PM Looks like China is cashing out. They communicate on the market...
better get cover to not get crushed Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Odalv on February 07, 2015, 07:59:44 PM Increasing limit is not solution.
a) there are 7,000,000,000 people (let say only 1,000,000,000 will use bitcoin) b) everybody makes 2-3 transactions per day c) 1 transaction takes 230 bytes d) there are 240 blocks per day (24 * 10) => (1,000,000,000 * 3 * 230)/240 = 2,8 GB per block We need smarter solution. Side chains can solve this problem easy. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Muuurrrrica! on February 07, 2015, 08:05:40 PM Increasing limit is not solution. a) there are 7,000,000,000 people (let say only 1,000,000,000 will use bitcoin) b) everybody makes 2-3 transactions per day c) 1 transaction takes 230 bytes d) there are 240 blocks per day (24 * 10) => (1,000,000,000 * 3 * 230)/240 = 2,8 GB per block We need smarter solution. Side chains can solve this problem easy. the answer is quite simple To me there is no question about it, the future is: Altchains + merged mining = Multiple chains, easy convertibility, no central point of failure, efficiency, no problem to innovate, no hardfork dramas and no problem to scale Bitcoin bagholders for some reason like to argue for monotony instead of diversity. I think that line of thought is unhealthy. altchains - what else? Each chain can hold a few million users. Maybe it'll take some more time with most people to let reality sink in. There is really no rational reason to mash everything onto one blockchain - it's even impossible Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: 1Referee on February 07, 2015, 08:19:18 PM It's something that has to happen. Can't understand why these threads pop up regularly.
1MB is enough for current transactions, but it will need a far higher amount if you want to make it future proof. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: RoadStress on February 07, 2015, 09:43:51 PM Fuck sakes, if Satoshi was so smart why the hell didn't he add 20 MB by default? he would have saved us from this mess. Geeeeez. Satoshi had no limit on block sizes at all. From block 1 it was legal to have a 2MB, 20MB, even 33MB block. There was a 33.5MB limit on message length and since blocks are transmitted as a single message it would have limited blocks to only 33.5MB but even this wasn't a hard limit as new message type could have been added which transmitted blocks in other ways (i.e. header & txn hashes vs full transactions). The 1MB "limit" was added as a temporary anti-spam measure 18 months later. There was no voting, no significant discussion, and the commit wasn't made by Satoshi. It actually was combined with a bunch of other unrelated changes and not even well documented at the time. There is nothing which indicates this was a core design decision that Bitcoin would perpetually be limited to 1MB. Of course people that have their own agenda like MP will chose to ignore or not reveal the true history of this 1MB limit. I think things are pretty much clear and done regarding this subject. Sathoshi never intended for a block size limit. It was introduced because we didn't know how to handle spam and it was the easier and the fastest way to limit it. But now after a period of time we can develop technical stuff to deal with the spam in other way than limiting the block size. Go Gavin fork! Suck it MP! We need smarter solution. Side chains can solve this problem easy. We already have it. Blockchain pruning. Just needs more development and testing. People anti-fork choose to ignore things that are real and that are helpful! Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: a fool and his money ... on February 07, 2015, 09:47:09 PM We can and should view the 'bloatchain' or 'gavincoin' hard fork effort as simply an attack. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 07, 2015, 09:54:16 PM We can and should view the 'bloatchain' or 'gavincoin' hard fork effort as simply an attack. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: NotLambchop on February 07, 2015, 10:04:30 PM ^
Buffer Overflow? If 1MB overflows, just alloc more mem. Problem solved, amirite? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 11:01:07 PM Increasing limit is not solution. a) there are 7,000,000,000 people (let say only 1,000,000,000 will use bitcoin) b) everybody makes 2-3 transactions per day c) 1 transaction takes 230 bytes d) there are 240 blocks per day (24 * 10) => (1,000,000,000 * 3 * 230)/240 = 2,8 GB per block We need smarter solution. Side chains can solve this problem easy. Lets see. 1 billion transactions a day, at let say the equivalent of $0.0001 per transaction meaning the equivalent of $100,000 in fees *per block* and 2.8GB a day is a problem? You also assume that in the time it takes to go from the current volume of 100k transactions per day to 3 billion, we never implement IBLT (https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/e20c3b5a1d4b97f79ac2)? Oh the horror, another proposal from Gavin Andreson ::) anyone would think he was one of the lead core devs or something! If you don't like the 20meg block size because you prefer the idea of side chains thats fair enough. At least be honest about it. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 11:09:06 PM Increasing limit is not solution. a) there are 7,000,000,000 people (let say only 1,000,000,000 will use bitcoin) b) everybody makes 2-3 transactions per day c) 1 transaction takes 230 bytes d) there are 240 blocks per day (24 * 10) => (1,000,000,000 * 3 * 230)/240 = 2,8 GB per block We need smarter solution. Side chains can solve this problem easy. the answer is quite simple To me there is no question about it, the future is: Altchains + merged mining = Multiple chains, easy convertibility, no central point of failure, efficiency, no problem to innovate, no hardfork dramas and no problem to scale Bitcoin bagholders for some reason like to argue for monotony instead of diversity. I think that line of thought is unhealthy. altchains - what else? Each chain can hold a few million users. Maybe it'll take some more time with most people to let reality sink in. There is really no rational reason to mash everything onto one blockchain - it's even impossible You are a classic example of "I can't imagine that X is possible, therefore X is not possible". If there is a good reason why all transactions can't happen on chain, i've yet to hear it. They don't *have* to, sure. But they *could* despite your immense short sightedness. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 11:10:43 PM We can and should view the 'bloatchain' or 'gavincoin' hard fork effort as simply an attack. Only [MP] would try and hard fork the blockchain just to get his own way! ... whilst all the time accusing everyone else of being the villains :) Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Rawted on February 07, 2015, 11:16:30 PM Why 20? why not 40 60 80 or 100? This is easily the biggest problem I have with the foundation and the direction they are taking Bitcoin in. Between Gavin as lead dev, and Brock Pierce on the board, Bitcoin is in for some dark days.Why not make it dynamic. Oh because it's gavins way or the highway Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 07, 2015, 11:35:16 PM Why 20? why not 40 60 80 or 100? This is easily the biggest problem I have with the foundation and the direction they are taking Bitcoin in. Between Gavin as lead dev, and Brock Pierce on the board, Bitcoin is in for some dark days.Why not make it dynamic. Oh because it's gavins way or the highway Lets go back to BCwinnings question first of all. "Why 20? why not 40 60 80 or 100?" It's a great question, if the decision had been made to increase the block size to 20MB and "put a fork in it" so to speak ;) If that's the case you are going to have to cite some reference. Whether or not *you* think that Gavin testing 20mb block size implies it is one thing. Whether or not you read some of the prior discussion about 20MB being the first increase in a series that would be coded into the protocol over time is another thing. Whether or not you are reading media hyperbole and accepting it as fact, thats yet another thing. So - no change has been proposed yet, and certainly nothing has been agreed, and BCwinning's summation of that is "it's Gavins way or the highway"...? Thats one level of ignorance. Reading some dude's misinformed opinion on BTC about whats going on. Not bothering to check then extrapolating. Thats a whole other level. Lets be clear if you are a drama junkie you'll find all sorts of crap you can glom onto in the world of BTC. Meanwhile everyone else will just plod on with the boring truth. When eventually the core devs have thrashed this out, and when an actual BIP is in place, at least then you can whine about it. Your protests are going to look even more petulant then though, because if its become a BIP then its likely that the majority of devs are on board. If the majority of devs are on board, its probably going to happen. Then the majority of users will upgrade, then any pathetic attempt to fork the blockchain will be seen for exactly what it is. This proposed change is intended to benefit *everyone*. The one person who has made an actual argument against it, has done so from the position of it benefiting the few. Everyone else against is arguing from ignorance, because not one of them have yet explained what the benefit is of *not* increasing the block size. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: tss on February 08, 2015, 03:57:35 AM sad to see the responses here.. check here for reason It's for anything miners include into a blockhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946745.0 upgrade yes. bloat, no. we're no where near any limits and markets SHOULD decide themselves. please lets not let others abuse the bitcoin blockchain. btc blockchain is for btc transactions ONLY. That's how Bitcoin works, miners can include anything they want into blocks and the only mechanism bitcoiners have to incentive them is including fees. As far I know there is no mechanism in place to ensure data in the blockchain contains any transactions at all. It could be just my personal photos I'd want to be backed up and if I pay enough fees miners will probably add them to the blockchain. You can argue there should be such a mechanism ensuring blocks are made up of transaction data, and I'd agree. That would require yet another hardfork. YES, currently, you would have to pay a lot of fees to store a single photo. I AM AGAINST btc blockchain being used to store x megabytes per .0001 btc miner fee. this would devalue btc by giving access to the huge miners network for outsiders to profit at the expense of the btc miner. i remember in the beginning of 2014 there were arguments from software developers that the bitcoin transaction size limits were hindering them from using the blockchain for their own non btc projects. they must have gotten their way as i'm assuming with an increase in block size the transaction size will also be lifted giving them what they have been pushing the foundation to do for months in their greed. if the block size is raised but the tx size is the same or smaller. i think that will keep our resources btc related. i'm all for making btc useful in the future. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: QuantumCurrency on February 08, 2015, 04:03:35 AM If the TX fees get too high, perhaps we should ask the FED for a subsidy.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: BCwinning on February 08, 2015, 05:06:04 PM Why 20? why not 40 60 80 or 100? This is easily the biggest problem I have with the foundation and the direction they are taking Bitcoin in. Between Gavin as lead dev, and Brock Pierce on the board, Bitcoin is in for some dark days.Why not make it dynamic. Oh because it's gavins way or the highway Lets go back to BCwinnings question first of all. "Why 20? why not 40 60 80 or 100?" It's a great question, if the decision had been made to increase the block size to 20MB and "put a fork in it" so to speak ;) If that's the case you are going to have to cite some reference. Whether or not *you* think that Gavin testing 20mb block size implies it is one thing. Whether or not you read some of the prior discussion about 20MB being the first increase in a series that would be coded into the protocol over time is another thing. Whether or not you are reading media hyperbole and accepting it as fact, thats yet another thing. So - no change has been proposed yet, and certainly nothing has been agreed, and BCwinning's summation of that is "it's Gavins way or the highway"...? Thats one level of ignorance. Reading some dude's misinformed opinion on BTC about whats going on. Not bothering to check then extrapolating. Thats a whole other level. Lets be clear if you are a drama junkie you'll find all sorts of crap you can glom onto in the world of BTC. Meanwhile everyone else will just plod on with the boring truth. When eventually the core devs have thrashed this out, and when an actual BIP is in place, at least then you can whine about it. Your protests are going to look even more petulant then though, because if its become a BIP then its likely that the majority of devs are on board. If the majority of devs are on board, its probably going to happen. Then the majority of users will upgrade, then any pathetic attempt to fork the blockchain will be seen for exactly what it is. This proposed change is intended to benefit *everyone*. The one person who has made an actual argument against it, has done so from the position of it benefiting the few. Everyone else against is arguing from ignorance, because not one of them have yet explained what the benefit is of *not* increasing the block size. It is gavins highway I think you have blinders on not to see it. I haven't see him open to any other options such as revert the BS spam code. That he pushed for to begin with. If the pool operators care about making money, they would raise the transaction fee to push the dice sites out of business. I have no issue with the block size in creasing. My issue is with the hard coded limits and the perception that there will be more hard forks in the future for the very same thing when satoshi had it right already. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 08, 2015, 05:22:18 PM Why 20? why not 40 60 80 or 100? This is easily the biggest problem I have with the foundation and the direction they are taking Bitcoin in. Between Gavin as lead dev, and Brock Pierce on the board, Bitcoin is in for some dark days.Why not make it dynamic. Oh because it's gavins way or the highway Lets go back to BCwinnings question first of all. "Why 20? why not 40 60 80 or 100?" It's a great question, if the decision had been made to increase the block size to 20MB and "put a fork in it" so to speak ;) If that's the case you are going to have to cite some reference. Whether or not *you* think that Gavin testing 20mb block size implies it is one thing. Whether or not you read some of the prior discussion about 20MB being the first increase in a series that would be coded into the protocol over time is another thing. Whether or not you are reading media hyperbole and accepting it as fact, thats yet another thing. So - no change has been proposed yet, and certainly nothing has been agreed, and BCwinning's summation of that is "it's Gavins way or the highway"...? Thats one level of ignorance. Reading some dude's misinformed opinion on BTC about whats going on. Not bothering to check then extrapolating. Thats a whole other level. Lets be clear if you are a drama junkie you'll find all sorts of crap you can glom onto in the world of BTC. Meanwhile everyone else will just plod on with the boring truth. When eventually the core devs have thrashed this out, and when an actual BIP is in place, at least then you can whine about it. Your protests are going to look even more petulant then though, because if its become a BIP then its likely that the majority of devs are on board. If the majority of devs are on board, its probably going to happen. Then the majority of users will upgrade, then any pathetic attempt to fork the blockchain will be seen for exactly what it is. This proposed change is intended to benefit *everyone*. The one person who has made an actual argument against it, has done so from the position of it benefiting the few. Everyone else against is arguing from ignorance, because not one of them have yet explained what the benefit is of *not* increasing the block size. It is gavins highway I think you have blinders on not to see it. I haven't see him open to any other options such as revert the BS spam code. That he pushed for to begin with. If the pool operators care about making money, they would raise the transaction fee to push the dice sites out of business. I have no issue with the block size in creasing. My issue is with the hard coded limits and the perception that there will be more hard forks in the future for the very same thing when satoshi had it right already. All you people saying this change is happening are the ones making the assumptions. Is it definitely happening. You have some proof over and above everyone assuming that it is? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 08, 2015, 06:12:18 PM If Gavin doesn't update the bitcoin core with a more realistic block cap size, then you can sure someone else will.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: ElectricMucus on February 08, 2015, 06:16:22 PM If Gavin doesn't update the bitcoin core with a more realistic block cap size, then you can sure someone else will. I'm imagining an epic shitstorm when there is 100 different forks of the original Bitcoin, all claiming to be the one and only true to the holy satoshi, all incompatible to each other. People would even trade them against each other and there is a race to decimate the competition by dumping as many pre-fork coins as possible.Probably won't happen, but is the thought that counts. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 08, 2015, 06:21:55 PM If Gavin doesn't update the bitcoin core with a more realistic block cap size, then you can sure someone else will. I'm imagining an epic shitstorm when there is 100 different forks of the original Bitcoin, all claiming to be the one and only true to the holy satoshi, all incompatible to each other. People would even trade them against each other and there is a race to decimate the competition by dumping as many pre-fork coins as possible.Probably won't happen, but is the thought that counts. I agree. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: thejaytiesto on February 08, 2015, 07:07:16 PM Fuck sakes, if Satoshi was so smart why the hell didn't he add 20 MB by default? he would have saved us from this mess. Geeeeez. Satoshi had no limit on block sizes at all. From block 1 it was legal to have a 2MB, 20MB, even 33MB block. There was a 33.5MB limit on message length and since blocks are transmitted as a single message it would have limited blocks to only 33.5MB but even this wasn't a hard limit as new message type could have been added which transmitted blocks in other ways (i.e. header & txn hashes vs full transactions). The 1MB "limit" was added as a temporary anti-spam measure 18 months later. There was no voting, no significant discussion, and the commit wasn't made by Satoshi. It actually was combined with a bunch of other unrelated changes and not even well documented at the time. There is nothing which indicates this was a core design decision that Bitcoin would perpetually be limited to 1MB. I would like to hear his views on the current state of things. Maybe if he says "guys its time to fork 20" there will be a consensus and people will be reasonable. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 08, 2015, 08:27:13 PM Isn't it time for satoshi to come back and bring some consensus? That's the problem, he would have too much power. I think that would only cause more problems. He's long gone, we will have to sort it out ourselves.Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: bitcoin revo on February 08, 2015, 09:28:08 PM It could be $0 one day, but then again, it could be $10,000
Anyways I expect it to last at least 10 years at minimum, but who knows. Satoshi is still out there right? If he ever creates "Bitcoin 2.0" I'll jump the boat for the founder. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: a fool and his money ... on February 09, 2015, 03:14:24 AM It could be $0 one day, but then again, it could be $10,000 Anyways I expect it to last at least 10 years at minimum, but who knows. Satoshi is still out there right? If he ever creates "Bitcoin 2.0" I'll jump the boat for the founder. maybe he already did ;D Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: AtheistAKASaneBrain on February 09, 2015, 02:56:27 PM Isn't it time for satoshi to come back and bring some consensus? That's the problem, he would have too much power. I think that would only cause more problems. He's long gone, we will have to sort it out ourselves.Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: RodeoX on February 09, 2015, 03:03:26 PM I don't see what the big deal is. We have hard forked before and it was a non-event, despite all the dire prediction then also.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: HarmonLi on February 09, 2015, 03:03:50 PM How is limiting the amount of a single block beneficial for the coin? You could also go for a coin with lower block-rates. This all just doesn't make any sense. Limiting the block-size is just arbitrarily crippling the flexibility of Bitcoin.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: periander on February 09, 2015, 03:39:58 PM What i dont understant is the certainty that both coins/forks are gonna live. If lets say 80% of all Hashingpower switch to the new Fork the old work will get stuck at a very high difficulty so transactions will take 100 minutes. This will cause more miners to switch until the fork is practically death/useless.
And i think if a fork will ever happen it will be made sure that at least 80% of the miners are behind this decision. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: HarmonLi on February 09, 2015, 05:07:59 PM What i dont understant is the certainty that both coins/forks are gonna live. If lets say 80% of all Hashingpower switch to the new Fork the old work will get stuck at a very high difficulty so transactions will take 100 minutes. This will cause more miners to switch until the fork is practically death/useless. And i think if a fork will ever happen it will be made sure that at least 80% of the miners are behind this decision. Well, that's the beauty. If the 'old' version really retains 20% of the hashing power and people do keep it alive, the difficulty will adjust itself accordingly after some time. If more and more people actually switch to the 'new' version, the hard fork was indeed 'successful'. Thing is: It doesn't matter :) Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Muuurrrrica! on February 10, 2015, 09:11:30 AM What i dont understant is the certainty that both coins/forks are gonna live. If lets say 80% of all Hashingpower switch to the new Fork the old work will get stuck at a very high difficulty so transactions will take 100 minutes. This will cause more miners to switch until the fork is practically death/useless. And i think if a fork will ever happen it will be made sure that at least 80% of the miners are behind this decision. Well, that's the beauty. If the 'old' version really retains 20% of the hashing power and people do keep it alive, the difficulty will adjust itself accordingly after some time. If more and more people actually switch to the 'new' version, the hard fork was indeed 'successful'. Thing is: It doesn't matter :) or people switch back to the original bitcoin because gavincoin is just a pain in the ass. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: periander on February 10, 2015, 09:24:19 AM What i dont understant is the certainty that both coins/forks are gonna live. If lets say 80% of all Hashingpower switch to the new Fork the old work will get stuck at a very high difficulty so transactions will take 100 minutes. This will cause more miners to switch until the fork is practically death/useless. And i think if a fork will ever happen it will be made sure that at least 80% of the miners are behind this decision. Well, that's the beauty. If the 'old' version really retains 20% of the hashing power and people do keep it alive, the difficulty will adjust itself accordingly after some time. If more and more people actually switch to the 'new' version, the hard fork was indeed 'successful'. Thing is: It doesn't matter :) Thats the point: this might not be the case. Lets asume that the next adjustment is like 10 Days away. If you only have 20% hashing power left that means, it would take 100days! This will scare away even more hashing power which will lead to even more time needed. So technically: yes a single CPU miner might can mine its way to the next adjustment but this may take years or decades. After all this time, even if the old fork got adjusted noone is interested in it anymore. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: HarmonLi on February 10, 2015, 01:21:45 PM What i dont understant is the certainty that both coins/forks are gonna live. If lets say 80% of all Hashingpower switch to the new Fork the old work will get stuck at a very high difficulty so transactions will take 100 minutes. This will cause more miners to switch until the fork is practically death/useless. And i think if a fork will ever happen it will be made sure that at least 80% of the miners are behind this decision. Well, that's the beauty. If the 'old' version really retains 20% of the hashing power and people do keep it alive, the difficulty will adjust itself accordingly after some time. If more and more people actually switch to the 'new' version, the hard fork was indeed 'successful'. Thing is: It doesn't matter :) or people switch back to the original bitcoin because gavincoin is just a pain in the ass. Then it's been decided that the majority doesn't want a larger block size! What's the problem? Bitcoin is the epitome of democracy when it comes to currencies! People decide with their hashing power. Beautiful! Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: HarmonLi on February 10, 2015, 01:23:16 PM What i dont understant is the certainty that both coins/forks are gonna live. If lets say 80% of all Hashingpower switch to the new Fork the old work will get stuck at a very high difficulty so transactions will take 100 minutes. This will cause more miners to switch until the fork is practically death/useless. And i think if a fork will ever happen it will be made sure that at least 80% of the miners are behind this decision. Well, that's the beauty. If the 'old' version really retains 20% of the hashing power and people do keep it alive, the difficulty will adjust itself accordingly after some time. If more and more people actually switch to the 'new' version, the hard fork was indeed 'successful'. Thing is: It doesn't matter :) Thats the point: this might not be the case. Lets asume that the next adjustment is like 10 Days away. If you only have 20% hashing power left that means, it would take 100days! This will scare away even more hashing power which will lead to even more time needed. So technically: yes a single CPU miner might can mine its way to the next adjustment but this may take years or decades. After all this time, even if the old fork got adjusted noone is interested in it anymore. Yeah, if it only retains 10%, it may take a while, sure. But you've said it yourself: Things take care of themselves: If the long block time really turns people off, they'll switch back to the new chain - problem solved. It doesn't matter what happens, people decide what they want to happen and the majority wins - or both chains co-exist. It's beautiful. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: FenixRD on February 10, 2015, 01:29:33 PM Satoshi had no limit on block sizes at all ... There was a 33.5MB limit on message length and since blocks are transmitted as a single message it would have limited blocks to only 33.5MB but even this wasn't a hard limit as new message type could have been added which transmitted blocks in other ways (i.e. header & txn hashes vs full transactions). The 1MB "limit" was added as a temporary anti-spam measure 18 months later ... the commit wasn't made by Satoshi. Yep. Good enough for me. I'm of a mindset that you "don't change the original design unless there is hard evidence of a need". I'm against Gavin's plan simply because the numbers are arbitrary, and I don't like arbitrary. I'm in favor of rolling back to the original message length limitation and letting the miners determine block length based on their internal cost/benefit analysis using fees and orphan probability. I don't want a "new" blocksize; I want the old blocksize back. When that gets full, we can discuss it further, and it'll be for the same reason that one day, we'll need to extend the decimal precision to allow division of satoshis. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: HarmonLi on February 10, 2015, 01:33:03 PM Satoshi had no limit on block sizes at all ... There was a 33.5MB limit on message length and since blocks are transmitted as a single message it would have limited blocks to only 33.5MB but even this wasn't a hard limit as new message type could have been added which transmitted blocks in other ways (i.e. header & txn hashes vs full transactions). The 1MB "limit" was added as a temporary anti-spam measure 18 months later ... the commit wasn't made by Satoshi. Yep. Good enough for me. I'm of a mindset that you "don't change the original design unless there is hard evidence of a need". I'm against Gavin's plan simply because the numbers are arbitrary, and I don't like arbitrary. I'm in favor of rolling back to the original message length limitation and letting the miners determine block length based on their internal cost/benefit analysis using fees and orphan probability. I don't want a "new" blocksize; I want the old blocksize back. When that gets full, we can discuss it further, and it'll be for the same reason that one day, we'll need to extend the decimal precision to allow division of satoshis. I think we may have to decide on a phrasing here. Being against Gavin can mean two things: "Against an increased maximum block size of 10 MB" or "Against any maximum block size". I think passing this 'problem' or rather decision onto the miners is the best way to go! Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: FenixRD on February 10, 2015, 01:42:30 PM I think we may have to decide on a phrasing here. Being against Gavin can mean two things: "Against an increased maximum block size of 10 MB" or "Against any maximum block size". I think passing this 'problem' or rather decision onto the miners is the best way to go! Right. I'm against his current plan of arbitrary increases. I'm not for NO maximum, but this is semantics -- there is also a max and min difficulty, etc. So, I'm for the max being de facto because of the protocol spec, as with difficulty. Anti-spam measures need only exist to prevent DOS. (There might be an argument for preventing bandwidth-based centralization as well.) This can be managed via fees, which should be made algorithmic instead of arbitrary, as well. To remind the thread, most pools cap blocks at 750k right now. (If you don't know why they'd do this, you really shouldn't be commenting on blocksize at all, without more understanding of how this all works!) This isn't going to change with the 1MB cap removed. The economics of Bitcoin will not really change with a blocksize increase. So, tl;dr my recommendation is remove the 1MB cap; allow message length to be the current upper bound -- don't just drop another new arbitrary cap in place. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: BillyBobZorton on February 10, 2015, 02:17:32 PM I still dont get how there are people supporting 1MB forever. Whats the point? dont you see its a dead end? I dont even get why this is a discussion.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: RodeoX on February 10, 2015, 04:28:22 PM I still dont get how there are people supporting 1MB forever. Whats the point? dont you see its a dead end? I dont even get why this is a discussion. I guess it starts with thinking every god dammed thing is a conspiracy of some sort. Add to that a lack of understanding about the protocol and you have "Gavincoin" plummeting to zero. ::)Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: FenixRD on February 10, 2015, 05:49:14 PM I still dont get how there are people supporting 1MB forever. Whats the point? dont you see its a dead end? I dont even get why this is a discussion. There is at least one good reason, one which at the least I and Peter Todd support. It's an authoritarian one, though. (And thus, as above, I'm not really for a limit.) Necessity is mother of all invention, and there are a shit-ton of things than can and are being made to aggregate transactions in different ways, ways which have different incentive, economic, and security implications. This impending limit has caused a great deal of thinking and research on sidechains, treechains, and several other things. For this reason, while I'm for removal of the limit, I'm in no great hurry to see it happen, until TT1C (time-to-1st-confirmation) begins to be detrimentally impacted. So I've stumped a bit on the "leave it alone" side in some places. So why am I here? (1) we're nearing where it could start non-negligibly impacting TT1C soon; and most of all (2) so long as this is getting debated hotly, I must insist that if it is to be changed, don't just replace 1MB with another dumb limit! edit: So in any case there's no good reason for 1MB forever, which was your phrasing. In fact there's no good reason to have a blocksize limit while having a mintxfee; they solve the same problem. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: bitcoin1992 on February 15, 2015, 02:30:43 AM Hopefully it goes down to 0 so I can buy all of them for free. ;)
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: tss on February 15, 2015, 06:40:37 AM I still dont get how there are people supporting 1MB forever. Whats the point? dont you see its a dead end? I dont even get why this is a discussion. I guess it starts with thinking every god dammed thing is a conspiracy of some sort. Add to that a lack of understanding about the protocol and you have "Gavincoin" plummeting to zero. ::)is transaction size limit going to increase along with block size limit? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: shmadz on February 15, 2015, 07:39:24 AM Bitcoin does not exist for your enjoyment. It does not exist for the benefit of all. It exists because there is a demand for an alternative to the current, corrupt, banking system.
Micro-payments can be left for some other less secure alt-coin or side-chain. The reason for limiting the size of the block is to maintain the incentive for the miners. This is the key. The Blockchain does not, by itself, solve the Byzantine Generals problem. It is the alignment of incentives that even makes this project possible. The Blockchain is not infinite, and without the majority of the hashing power, it will not be secure. Transaction fees should be implemented on a floating, market price, and the block size should remain fixed. (*until there is a reason to increase it which provides a proper profit incentive for the miners to accept such a change*) Bitcoin is simply too important to fuck with, and your pathetic attempt to fork it will fail. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: DeathAndTaxes on February 15, 2015, 02:34:25 PM The reason for limiting the size of the block is to maintain the incentive for the miners. No that is a purpose some people have invented after the fact. The purpose of the 1MB temporary restriction was to limit the potential damage caused by bloating or spam attacks. For essentially its entire history Bitcoin has effectively had an unlimited block size. If the total txn volume is 100KB and the block size is 1MB then the block size has no effect on fees at all. People paid fees to get timely inclusion in a block. We have never had a period of time where there were more txns than potential block space. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: shmadz on February 15, 2015, 05:23:56 PM The reason for limiting the size of the block is to maintain the incentive for the miners. No that is a purpose some people have invented after the fact. The purpose of the 1MB temporary restriction was to limit the potential damage caused by bloating or spam attacks. For essentially its entire history Bitcoin has effectively had an unlimited block size. If the total txn volume is 100KB and the block size is 1MB then the block size has no effect on fees at all. People paid fees to get timely inclusion in a block. We have never had a period of time where there were more txns than potential block space. Sure, but what happens when the block reward is cut to 12.5? Or 6? Or 3? I'm just saying that mining must be financially incentivized to act in a manner that protects the integrity of the blockchain, otherwise the whole thing will fall apart. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: ajareselde on February 15, 2015, 08:13:44 PM The reason for limiting the size of the block is to maintain the incentive for the miners. No that is a purpose some people have invented after the fact. The purpose of the 1MB temporary restriction was to limit the potential damage caused by bloating or spam attacks. For essentially its entire history Bitcoin has effectively had an unlimited block size. If the total txn volume is 100KB and the block size is 1MB then the block size has no effect on fees at all. People paid fees to get timely inclusion in a block. We have never had a period of time where there were more txns than potential block space. Sure, but what happens when the block reward is cut to 12.5? Or 6? Or 3? I'm just saying that mining must be financially incentivized to act in a manner that protects the integrity of the blockchain, otherwise the whole thing will fall apart. the whole idea of bitcoin is two-sided, on one hand you have decentralisation, but on the other hand, through all the reward halving all i can predict is the opposite; mining centralisation. and with majority of hashing power, who will control changes made on bitcoin ? the one in control of the hash ofc. its all just a little bit loose, even knowing that there is a team of dev's figuring things out, im sceptical about future sometimes.. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: thelibertycap on February 15, 2015, 09:29:43 PM There is only one coin, Bitcoin. There will be an update of the software, it will be well telegraphed, everyone will upgrade in plenty of time. I am sorry Sir but for the meeting of central banks you can try next door, these are cryptoanarchists that think different. I guess cryptoanarchists will have to support other real fungible digital cash/altcoin in the end anyway and leave the bitcoin to provide VISA scale transactions. I am 50/50 on the fork. There might be no reason to resist regulating and centralizing bitcoin and supporting the Gavin's fork so bitcoin can go mainstream quickly. I mean why get attached to Bitcoin so much when we have so many altcoins, just pick the right one that suits you. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 16, 2015, 06:57:58 PM The reason for limiting the size of the block is to maintain the incentive for the miners. No that is a purpose some people have invented after the fact. The purpose of the 1MB temporary restriction was to limit the potential damage caused by bloating or spam attacks. For essentially its entire history Bitcoin has effectively had an unlimited block size. If the total txn volume is 100KB and the block size is 1MB then the block size has no effect on fees at all. People paid fees to get timely inclusion in a block. We have never had a period of time where there were more txns than potential block space. Sure, but what happens when the block reward is cut to 12.5? Or 6? Or 3? I'm just saying that mining must be financially incentivized to act in a manner that protects the integrity of the blockchain, otherwise the whole thing will fall apart. You have a big block so that there are more transactions, so even though the individual transaction fee is still low, the *total* of those fees is sufficient incentive to miners. At first I thought like you did, then I realised how simple the answer actually was. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Pecunia non olet on February 16, 2015, 10:16:55 PM You have a big block so that there are more transactions, so even though the individual transaction fee is still low, the *total* of those fees is sufficient incentive to miners. At first I thought like you did, then I realised how simple the answer actually was. For this to be true those transactions need to take place on the netowrk. That was the point of the thread, i think: they won't take place on the network as it's inaccessible for people with low bandwidth or HDstore aswell as unattractive to people who are interested in a decentralised network or want to run full nodes (most who know about the tech will want to have that). So the gavinfork builds on the presumption massadoption will happen, which it won't with this kind of recource use. So what you get is an unsustainable network in the long run. You will be forced to either scale down, enforce fees with central planning (communist style) or raise the 21 mln max coins to keep the network running in the end of the day. But before you meet that dead end most people with a brain (and money) will have moved to a more sustainable and viable coin or actually back to the integer Mpcoin chain we use today (in case they ever left it). Bitcoin can be scaled, but it can't be scaled ahead of demand or it'll be unsustainable. Fact. Miners will not even accept the fork as it robs them from future income. So there will also be no consensus in the network. All this fork does is make look Gavin and his cheerleaders like complete idiots and undermine investors confidence. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: plopper50 on February 16, 2015, 11:22:12 PM Most pools limit the block size they will accept. What's going to change if the fork goes through and they continue limiting the block size they will accept? It will make no difference unless the pools start accepting giant blocks.
Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: tss on February 17, 2015, 02:14:10 AM Bitcoin does not exist for your enjoyment. It does not exist for the benefit of all. It exists because there is a demand for an alternative to the current, corrupt, banking system. Micro-payments can be left for some other less secure alt-coin or side-chain. The reason for limiting the size of the block is to maintain the incentive for the miners. This is the key. The Blockchain does not, by itself, solve the Byzantine Generals problem. It is the alignment of incentives that even makes this project possible. The Blockchain is not infinite, and without the majority of the hashing power, it will not be secure. Transaction fees should be implemented on a floating, market price, and the block size should remain fixed. (*until there is a reason to increase it which provides a proper profit incentive for the miners to accept such a change*) Bitcoin is simply too important to fuck with, and your pathetic attempt to fork it will fail. i agree with this all. why will no one comment on... do we not care? WILL ALLOWED TRANSACTION SIZE BE INCREASED? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: DeathAndTaxes on February 17, 2015, 02:57:45 AM WILL ALLOWED TRANSACTION SIZE BE INCREASED? Txn size check uses the same constant as block size check (MAX_BLOCK_SIZE). The new code doesn't change that. You can make a txn as large as a block. That being said most nodes consider a txn >100KB to be non-standard regardless of the block size. So transactions larger than 100KB won't be relayed by most nodes, and won't be added to a block unless the miner is running custom software. Standard vs non-standard is a node behavior it isn't part of the consensus rules. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: hyphymikey on February 17, 2015, 06:21:43 AM WILL ALLOWED TRANSACTION SIZE BE INCREASED? Txn size check uses the same constant as block size check (MAX_BLOCK_SIZE). The new code doesn't change that. You can make a txn as large as a block. That being said most nodes consider a txn >100KB to be non-standard regardless of the block size. So transactions larger than 100KB won't be relayed by most nodes, and won't be added to a block unless the miner is running custom software. Standard vs non-standard is a node behavior it isn't part of the consensus rules. What would happen if I put a large fee on a non-standard transaction? Are these nodes/pools able to see the larger fee and push my transaction through? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 17, 2015, 09:17:33 AM WILL ALLOWED TRANSACTION SIZE BE INCREASED? Txn size check uses the same constant as block size check (MAX_BLOCK_SIZE). The new code doesn't change that. You can make a txn as large as a block. That being said most nodes consider a txn >100KB to be non-standard regardless of the block size. So transactions larger than 100KB won't be relayed by most nodes, and won't be added to a block unless the miner is running custom software. Standard vs non-standard is a node behavior it isn't part of the consensus rules. What would happen if I put a large fee on a non-standard transaction? Are these nodes/pools able to see the larger fee and push my transaction through? Nodes won't relay nonstandard transactions, unless the node is modified. A miner could choose to include a nonstandard in a block, but would be pointless as the rest of the network would disallow the block. Wasted effort. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: DeathAndTaxes on February 17, 2015, 02:44:41 PM Nodes won't relay nonstandard transactions, unless the node is modified. A miner could choose to include a nonstandard in a block, but would be pointless as the rest of the network would disallow the block. Wasted effort. It was all correct until the bolded part. Non-standard is still valid. Standard vs non-standard only controls the behavior of nodes for relaying or including txns in a block. A non-standard txn is still valid and thus a block containing a non-standard txn is also valid. All nodes will validate and accept the block without issue and miners will extend that chain. Standard = nodes will relay the txn and miners will include the txn by default Non-standard = txn is still valid but it is not relayed or included in a block by default Invalid = txn violates consensus rules and any block containing it is invalid. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: DeathAndTaxes on February 17, 2015, 02:56:46 PM What would happen if I put a large fee on a non-standard transaction? Are these nodes/pools able to see the larger fee and push my transaction through? No. If a miner has a method to directly accept the txn and it meets their requirements then you could submit it directly to the miner. Non-standard means that nodes will refuse to relay the txn, store it in a memory pool, or include it in a block. Changing the fee won't make it standard. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Buffer Overflow on February 17, 2015, 03:46:20 PM Nodes won't relay nonstandard transactions, unless the node is modified. A miner could choose to include a nonstandard in a block, but would be pointless as the rest of the network would disallow the block. Wasted effort. It was all correct until the bolded part. Non-standard is still valid. Standard vs non-standard only controls the behavior of nodes for relaying or including txns in a block. A non-standard txn is still valid and thus a block containing a non-standard txn is also valid. All nodes will validate and accept the block without issue and miners will extend that chain. Standard = nodes will relay the txn and miners will include the txn by default Non-standard = txn is still valid but it is not relayed or included in a block by default Invalid = txn violates consensus rules and any block containing it is invalid. Thank you for correcting me. :) Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: tss on February 17, 2015, 06:54:04 PM You guys are delusional. It's time to fork for fuck sakes, we'll need to deal with this eventually anyway. why are you such a cheerleader? discussion and understanding is the goal not follow and comply. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: Stephen Gornick on February 23, 2015, 11:15:19 PM If Gavin doesn't update the bitcoin core with a more realistic block cap size, then you can sure someone else will. The client would likely need some additional changes ... kind of like as if starting a new altcoin except this one happens to accepts Bitcoin private keys and UTXOs at some starting point (where the fork will begin). Otherwise, Cryddit describes pretty well why the (existing) protocol software is very discriminating to the "losing" chain (which has less hashing power than the chain with the "most work". The two chains just won't co-exist even if there is a certain percent of miners that will continue to mine on it: - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=941331.msg10440800#msg10440800 Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: AtheistAKASaneBrain on February 24, 2015, 04:28:56 PM You guys are delusional. It's time to fork for fuck sakes, we'll need to deal with this eventually anyway. why are you such a cheerleader? discussion and understanding is the goal not follow and comply. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on February 25, 2015, 12:28:48 PM If Gavin doesn't update the bitcoin core with a more realistic block cap size, then you can sure someone else will. The client would likely need some additional changes ... kind of like as if starting a new altcoin that just that it accepts private keys and UTXOs at some starting point (where the fork will begin). Otherwise, Cryddit describes pretty well why the (existing) protocol software is very discriminating to the "losing" chain (which has less hashing power than the chain with the "most work". The two chains just won't co-exist even if there is a certain percent of miners that will continue to mine on it: - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=941331.msg10440800#msg10440800 People would do very well to read and understand that thread. It explains perfectly why there is no such thing as gavincoin, and why all of the frothing about hard forks is just so much internet drama. Thanks for (re)posting this! Information is what will kill the FUD. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: balu2 on August 21, 2015, 04:35:11 PM homo homini was pretty bang on.
If you search google for "gavincoin" this thread is at the top of the search btw. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorexmr on August 21, 2015, 04:38:09 PM homo homini was pretty bang on. If you search google for "gavincoin" this thread is at the top of the search btw. bitpay, blockchain.info and okcoin will support BIP101. well....XT seems to win... Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: balu2 on August 21, 2015, 04:45:05 PM homo homini was pretty bang on. If you search google for "gavincoin" this thread is at the top of the search btw. bitpay, blockchain.info and okcoin will support BIP101. well....XT seems to win... ya, well if the scum is gonna win get ready for really cheap coins. But i don't think so. Also worth mentioning is how all these xt clowns on this thread gone silent since. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: onemorexmr on August 21, 2015, 04:47:15 PM homo homini was pretty bang on. If you search google for "gavincoin" this thread is at the top of the search btw. bitpay, blockchain.info and okcoin will support BIP101. well....XT seems to win... ya, well if the scum is gonna win get ready for really cheap coins. But i don't think so. Also worth mentioning is how all these xt clowns on this thread gone silent since. i am not silent? Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: sgbett on August 21, 2015, 05:15:40 PM homo homini was pretty bang on. If you search google for "gavincoin" this thread is at the top of the search btw. bitpay, blockchain.info and okcoin will support BIP101. well....XT seems to win... ya, well if the scum is gonna win get ready for really cheap coins. But i don't think so. Also worth mentioning is how all these xt clowns on this thread gone silent since. you mean on a 6 month old thread that you necro'd. let that sink in 6 months and people still haven't come to a consensus. probably a good job that gavin started when he did. at this rate the heat death of the universe will probably need to be take into account... Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: 8up on August 21, 2015, 05:16:03 PM homo homini was pretty bang on. If you search google for "gavincoin" this thread is at the top of the search btw. bitpay, blockchain.info and okcoin will support BIP101. well....XT seems to win... ya, well if the scum is gonna win get ready for really cheap coins. But i don't think so. Also worth mentioning is how all these xt clowns on this thread gone silent since. adding some high profile names like circle, coinbase and >50% of chinese miners unfortunately some early adoptors seem a little bit to overconfident in their circle jerk forums bitcointalk and r/bitcoin. ->self-censorship is not a good thing if you want to stay connected with reality. the best thing that could happen to bitcoin is if some early adoptors fold their bitcoins because of ideology. the better distribution will guarantee bitcoin a fast recovery (2nd gen. early adoptors are already waiting to take their place) and further success. but before that, there could be blood in the streets. $50 and below seem possible, if sky is falling on us. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: balu2 on August 21, 2015, 05:18:35 PM homo homini was pretty bang on. If you search google for "gavincoin" this thread is at the top of the search btw. bitpay, blockchain.info and okcoin will support BIP101. well....XT seems to win... ya, well if the scum is gonna win get ready for really cheap coins. But i don't think so. Also worth mentioning is how all these xt clowns on this thread gone silent since. adding some high profile names like circle, coinbase and >50% of chinese miners unfortunately some early adoptors seem a little bit to overconfident in their circle jerk forums bitcointalk and r/bitcoin. ->self-censorship is not a good thing if you want to stay connected with reality. the best thing that could happen to bitcoin is if some early adoptors fold their bitcoins because of ideology. the better distribution will guarantee bitcoin a fast recovery (2nd gen. early adoptors are already waiting to take their place) and further success. but before that, there could be blood in the streets. $50 and below seem possible, if sky is falling on us. lol, as if it would recover from 50$ - people aren't stupid. Title: Re: The hardfork will make Gavincoin plummet to zero Post by: BTCOFFEE on August 24, 2015, 04:30:53 PM Fuck sakes, if Satoshi was so smart why the hell didn't he add 20 MB by default? he would have saved us from this mess. Geeeeez. Satoshi had no limit on block sizes at all. From block 1 it was legal to have a 2MB, 20MB, even 33MB block. There was a 33.5MB limit on message length and since blocks are transmitted as a single message it would have limited blocks to only 33.5MB but even this wasn't a hard limit as new message type could have been added which transmitted blocks in other ways (i.e. header & txn hashes vs full transactions). The 1MB "limit" was added as a temporary anti-spam measure 18 months later. There was no voting, no significant discussion, and the commit wasn't made by Satoshi. It actually was combined with a bunch of other unrelated changes and not even well documented at the time. There is nothing which indicates this was a core design decision that Bitcoin would perpetually be limited to 1MB. aye i got a grand idea let's fork core immediately back to 33mb and see what happens ~ easy solution ! :-) lol |
