Bitcoin Forum

http://defensedistributed.com/

Someone get these guys to take bitcoin, and I'm in.

Well that was quickly.

Yeah, it looks like the same guys that produced the printed AR-15 lower receiver mentioned last week.

Also:
http://defensedistributed.com/bitcoin/

Hi to all pentagon cyber-security employees!  ;)

Haha, this made me actually laugh in my cubical!

This project is awesome though, way cool.

Pentagon employee spotted! ;)

Why start with a weapon though  ???

Information should be free is something I completely agree with though. Time to cancel all copyright laws.

Because the 2nd amendment is how you enforce the 1st and 3-10. ;)

Okay, now without referencing the American constitution please. I could really care less what is in there.

Sorry. I sometimes forget we are a world-wide community. The reasoning behind starting with a weapon is inherent, though, in the ideas behind the 2nd amendment. I'll let Ice-T say it for me:

http://silverunderground.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/IceT.jpg

The principle is the same whether you refer to the # of the amendment and the ones is defends or the actual meaning and words of those amendments.

Well, wachtwoord has a point though:
There isn't a 2nd amendment equivalent in most countries around the world, where I live that is only formulated as a grant not a right, and only granted as a relic of reformation period of monarchy in my county, although still valid. And in some countries there is nothing, except that mocking UN-declaration.

There is nothing wrong with the right. Most people are just to stupid to understand when to exercise the right. Guns turn stupid, meaningless petty people that in normal situations can be ignored for the meaningless people that they are, into actual threats that cannot be ignored.

The human body is really vulnerable and death is final.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you'd have a hard time arguing about it in a thread about selfmade guns ;)

I do not challenge the right of people to carry arms
I do not challenge the right to carry out this project, in fact I applaud the though behind it: Freedom of information

I just would have preferred them choosing something else than weapons as their initial subject

The thread is not about homemade weapons imho, it's about one of the first projects related to open source automated physical object development (may be we need a revised version of GNU GPL?). Very interesting and not directly related to guns or weapons of any sort. Of course, no matter what the initial subject is, weapons will be produced (I am not delusional).

Thing is, by choosing to use a weapon, they have made a very strong statement: that all information, regardless of content, should be free.

Oh well lets see we have

a complete civilization: http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Global_Village_Construction_Set
about every gadget you can imagine: http://www.thingiverse.com
a car: http://wikispeed.com/
a plane http://makerplane.org/

not to mention various electronic devices from computers, game consoles and instruments (I own 2 of them actually)
It is hard to think of anything not being developed in a open source model...

Yes it's time.

Repraps are a "relatively" old concept. Relative to printing AR-15 lowers.
"open source automated physical object development" --> RepRap

The principle behind the US 2nd amendment is a result of enlightened evolution of government.  An acknowledgement by the intellectual elite (arguably :D) that governments have and will devolve and operate to the detriment of society and at that point there are likely no options to effect positive governmental change other than by force.

If one recalls the turmoil in Europe a few hundred years ago of wholesale dissolution of parliaments and back and forth struggle for complete and absolute power by monarchies it's no surprise that the profound right for the people to bear arms, or more pointedly for the common people to pose a real threat to their own government, is not something found in the old world.


Now, if one thinks that stupid or disturbed people having guns and shooting up movie theaters is scary consider that in today's world the US citizen, with the right to bear basic weaponry, possesses only a fraction of the force leverage against their government's technologically advanced war making and intelligence capability.  The teeth of the 2nd amendment, the counterbalance to the worst of government dysfunction, is largely gone.  No first world government has a rational reason to fear successful revolt.

What do you think the Syrian's chances would be if Syria was a first world country with commensurate war making and intelligence capability?

Because the people aren't starving. There's an excellent book titled The Great Wave which shows a strong correlation between food prices and revolutions. During the French Revolution, many people had a clear cut choice: starve to death and watch your family do the same, or starve while fighting the aristocracy (and maybe steal some of their bread). I believe that if conditions get so poor in the US that people can no longer afford food, then people will find a way to revolt. At that level, it's simple survival.

I can assure you, there are will be plenty of fast food available :-) Even for free. And true that, mostly most of the revolutions were due to hunger. The russian one happened because workers were starving.

Where we are headed that doesn't matter. One way or another we gonna have the system Neal Stephenson envisioned within one generation, and I have no issues posting that here, the existing power structure has already accepted that they will only play some minor role as one of these distributed systems.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Wave-Revolutions-History/dp/019512121X

Recommended.

http://defensedistributed.com/bitcoin/

Apparently they already do accept bitcoin donations.

Just sent 17.76 BTC.

Beat and overthrow? No, wear out by:

1) Guerrilla
2) Terrorism
3) Getting a majority of the population behind the cause

Are you referring to The Diamond Age?

Damn fine book. That's the one I assumed he meant, or possibly Snow Crash.

yes ^^

Whoa man, $170? Do you know these people? Is there any proof whatsoever that they will make any effort to go through with the cause stated on the website?

I'm gonna stop selling bridges

I've already checked, and the guy that managed to make an AR-15 lower receiver is involved in this effort, so I already know that these guys aren't just looking to make a quick buck.

Besides, my money, my business.

OK. This has given me a great scam idea though; thanks.

Good idea. Piss off gun enthusiasts.  8)

Not even that. Just in general, find something revolutionary that someone has done. Create a quick website, take the credit, pretend to be that person, say you're going to do more. Accept donations. The end.

I cant wait for the replicator from star trek.

Sent a few bitcoins.

http://zipmeme.com/uploads/generated/g1344412063921302481.jpg

8/8 Update – The Word Grows (http://defensedistributed.com/88-update-the-word-grows/) mentions this thread.

I don't see any reason to doubt the legitimacy of this project any more than other similar startups. My professional opinion* is that it's a good plan, and their site didn't scream "scam" to me. If anyone is seriously worried about fraud, they DO give out their real identities (http://defensedistributed.com/about-us/) so you can verify them.

* I'm a mechanical engineer with ~3 years experience designing for and maintaining 3D printers.

I don't see anything scammy about this.  Although, interest could drop and the project could fall apart with your donation going to waste.
I wonder what else we could print that we aren't supposed to have?

Just like with any other project early on, in any type of currency.

Thats a good questions though.  What else are we not supposed to have?

Drugs. Chemical printers are presumably some distance away.

*here.

http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/researchers-developing-chemputer-that-prints-drugs-20120725/

* Perhaps in the near future

http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/researchers-developing-chemputer-that-prints-drugs-20120725/

Well it took me some time to get whitelisted, but I wanted to thank the contributors that I know must have read and posted in this thread. I received a handful of transactions denominated in "1776." It was actually quite humbling.

I'd be happy to talk more about the project or its connection to bitcoin if anyone is interested. Our interviews are popping up online, and one can see a more extended philosophical exposition of our intentions at the Anarchy Gumbo podcast here: http://bit.ly/P34KQ5

Happy to take PM's and emails as well. Thanks again for your support. We're just shy of $1000 contributed from all sources.

Thanks for the update Zinoviev. I think your challenging and visionary project will garner a lot of interest. And it is awesome that you accept bitcoin.

I appreciate that very much. We've got probably one of the most epic global mail merges in the works. If you could see it you might weep haha.

My instinct is to either reach out or compete!

Why not do both?

Compete first, then reach out. The Wiki is now up at DefDist haha.

Zinoviev,

First let me say I appreciate your efforts, as well as your courage. I don't think I'd have the guts to make such a thing putting my real face in videos like that... but well, maybe it's because I live in a place where guns are almost totally banned to civilians.

I'm posting here just to say that with such project, you shouldn't have much trouble to make a buzz. Once you reach a middle size media, the story will be copied over and over, and you shouldn't have much difficulties in gathering the money you need from that point on.
A good starting point would be important libertarian media. I suggest you try talking with the people behind Reason TV, for example. I believe they'd like to make an interview with you about your project.

Congratulations, and good luck!

Russia Today would probably love the story, too.

EhVedado!

Hail brother. You know, the number one email I'm getting takes a "thank you for doing this" kind of track. It's not a problem at all, and your thinking is ours as well. No one cares when you're not already reported by someone else, so we've been catching breaks here and there in little liberty circles and through word of mouth from libertarian organizations. Day 1 I mail merged every ostensible libertarian org and think tank. A very small number of people replied, but it landed us interviews and libertarian legal representation at a big organization.

From there we're doing everything to land radio and media spots. My epic international mail merge is ready as well. We'll become a story overseas and reverse engineer our way onto the screens and into the minds of Americans. Libertas.

Lol believe me we're spamming them hard.

I've found this to be remarkable for traffic generation. I think I copied it from this thread, actually. So thanks again, guys.
https://i.imgur.com/87ZGk.jpg

So we became a minor success today.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/08/23/wiki-weapon-project-aims-to-create-a-gun-anyone-can-3d-print-at-home/

With the Forbes pickup we got recycled across the internet and the BTC has been coming in. Some serious private funding offers as well.

I want to thank you all for being one of the first communities to discuss and support our project.

Our pleasure, to be sure.  I've been monitoring your blog at defensedistributed.com and was hoping to get an update on the progress.

this is certainly a very cool idea.

+1

We should go camping together.

~Bruno~

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/zak-kubin/28/830/774
http://www.linkedin.com/in/seankubin

Verified!

I would totally do printable guns, even if they were one-shots.
 
I envision something where you might get near 100% printable.  Unless springs with lots of power can be made of plastic, I envision something like 80% or 90% complete for a one-shot gun.  Maybe you need to insert a spring, perhaps a metal barrel (for better accuracy) in the plastic housing, and then screw both sides together.  Maybe something small like a .22LR belly-popper derringer? 
 
It would totally rock if a one-shot .45 long colt could be printed. :)
 
Other ideas include a pistol with a .410 shotgun barrel (like currently on the Taurus Judge or Smith and Wesson Governor) sans rifling (since I'm not sure how well rifling can be printed?).  I'd love to see a 28 gauge pistol.
 
again, these ideas are likely one-shot guns, but I'd still totally do it.

Made it onto Hack-a-day:
http://hackaday.com/2012/08/26/3d-printed-guns-laws-and-regulations-and-philosophical-discussions-on-the-nature-of-printed-objects/

I suggested to them the 410 shotgun, but then I realized that a reduced recoil 12 gauge has a lower peak chamber pressure than anything else on the market, which is the greatest problem with printing a barrel. Otherwise, a short section of 3/4 inch electrical conduit (EMT) surrounded by printed plastic for extra tension against expansion would work.

What did the UN declare?

I'm thinking about submitting this to their site, but this looks like a potential candidate for a printable gun:
 
http://heizerfirearms.com/

For those who don't want (or can't) go to the site, it's a pistol with over-under barrels, available in .45 acp or 9mm.  You can switch out the barrels to use either configuration.
 
It holds 2 in the chamber, and has a spot in the grip that holds two more rounds in a speed strip for easier reloading.  So a max of 4 "easy" shots w/out having to fiddle around in your pocket.  I imagine speed strips might be printable, too?

Kinda cool, but the price... wow. I am going to also have to be able to print money.

Aren't we all printing money?  ;D
 
I sent them an email about that in case they can incorporate some of that design into something printable.  I like that it's small and narrow.  Perfect candidate ;)

Good God man!  Those are too expensive for what they are!

You can get a BondArms derringer for less than that thing!

http://bondarms.com/

http://c4ss.org/content/12252

Printable guns? Fuck. Control the printers!

I'll just leave this here... http://craphound.com/?p=573

something many have not thought about....3d printers......counterfeiting

can't print bitcoins ;) ;) ;)

You'd have an easier time printing a physical Bitcoin than a fiat bill... or at least a "paper" wallet.

Why would you need a 3D printer for a flat paper bill?

dollars have a thing called security strip inside

I must have that 3d printer....

And? Bill counterfeiting is a reality, and they use 2D printers. 3D printed bills with today's technology wouldn't fool anyone, you just can't get that much detail. 3D printing doesn't help with security strips at all.

Hmm. how long have you been trying to counterfeit?

I have about three years of experience 3D printing, but none counterfeiting. And you?

Someone has now come up with printable 30-rd magazine for AR-15.  The only thing you need to buy (not printable) is the spring:
 
 http://defcad.org/ar-15-magazine-30-round-mag/
 
Finally, a hedge against a potential high capacity mag ban.
 
"No officer, I printed all 100 of these pre-ban."

well they can ban the springs

Springs are relatively easy to make. One of the commenters on the video suggested that you could make a printable form to wrap wire around to make a spring.

They can of course, ban the printer (http://craphound.com/?p=573)...

They likely won't, however, since rebuild kits are legal (even in California!) so that you can repair your existing mags.

Actually if anything the distribution of the files would be prohibited.

Oh btw, makerbot removed the designs off their website thingiverse because of a terms of use violation.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/12/20/0123235/makerbot-cracks-down-on-3d-printable-gun-parts

It states that you should not share weapon designs on it.
However they haven't actually enforced this until now... would actually make sense that they have been urged to enforce it after the recent publicity.

Just like downloading music was made illegal, right?

The time when you can ban an object is nearing it's end.

technology advancing so fast; gov will be lucky if they can act quick enough to stop 3d printers in time for their agenda. or maybe its part of it. That way they can blame anyone and blame the smart libertarians "they probably have 3d printers and homemade guns lets raid their homes"

Of course but that doesn't mean they won't go that route, even if we all know it wouldn't work.

I rather think it would look like this:
"You downloaded weapon designs, we know it because we sniffed your network traffic, you are requested to make a statement on your local police station."

Then if people do not show up they raid.
After the first few cases people gonna use tor, for the gov that means out of view out of mind. And the thing will be as effective as any other prohibition, absolutely non effective.

Some courts will rule a warrant is still needed to invade privacy like that

They'll just claim it's under exigent circumstances and apply for a warrant later. Only if the local police weren't power abusing scumbags it would happen any differently.

So... only in fantasy-land?

Do you have a printer yourself? I've been thinking about purchasing/building one.

Although I think the political statement is laudable, I think these projects are misguided. Guns really need metal and 3d printing isn't ready for that yet. What they need to be 3d printing is the tools to make guns. Something that could be made cheaply that could rifle short barrels would be a game changer.

Also, instead of manufacturing parts that already exist for guns that already exist and coming up with something inferior, what's needed is some clever design. Composite barrels? caseless ammunition? Electronically controlled feed & firing?

Correction: cheap 3d printing isn't ready for that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNW6WqynKtE

Ah, is that strong enough though?

They use it to build airplane parts.

That's not the question I asked ;)

Hah, good point. Yes, I believe it's at least as strong as the same part made by casting it, since they melt the new layer to the old.

I still stand by the rifling comment somewhat. I was doing some reading on it and there are a few different methods but they all use large and expensive machinery. Obviously, this makes sense for mass production but I can't help but feel that there is the opportunity for a cheap (but worse value), slow, accurate, over-engineered bore & rifling tool/mechanism.

dude, most already are using tor.  Someone that I've been very close to for all my life uses tor for just about anything remotely controversial.  My *cough* his bitcoind runs entirely across tor, completely quietly, and does not accept connections from previously unknown servers; and this is for something that I'm willing to admit that I do.

You can rifle a barrel with a drill press, and the right bit.

I'd be interested in a link to that.

I was speaking mostly theoretically, I've yet to see "the right bit," since you would need to control the turn very accurately. You could probably do something similar to the process described here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/guns-hunting/659389-how-rifle-barrel-1700s-style.html

Well, kind of. It's half assembled, I purchased it about a year ago and I am procrastinating to finish it.

Yep, those are the methods I was referring to. The scrape cutting and the button. I guess a handgun device could be reasonably small but the ones for rifles are pretty big. I'm thinking something cnc or maybe mechanical with cleverly shaped cams Point it at a piece of rebar and come back an hour later to a nice barrel.

These fella's have a bitcointalk account?

Yup:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=63930

last active in march

Busy elsewhere, I'd imagine.

apr11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kmZAaxYwhOo