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Other => Politics & Society => Topic started by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 01:18:15 PM



Title: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 01:18:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVY-iQDO8pg&feature=plcp

Let us all remember Israeli cameramen likely of Mossad origin were stationed around the WTC, hours before the 9/11 attack. Many were caught cheering. 5 Israeli men who were caught dancing near the site were detained and quickly let go.

Let us remember the WTC towers were the only buildings known to be perfectly demolished in a linear fashion from small aircraft.

Let us remember that pre-placed explosives are the only known devices to accurately implode buildings and melt steel beams.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw&feature=related


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: vampire on September 11, 2012, 01:22:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVY-iQDO8pg&feature=plcp

Let's us all remember Israeli cameramen likely of Mossad origin were stationed around the WTC, hours before the 9/11 attack. Many were caught cheering. 6 Israeli men who were caught dancing near the site were detained and quickly let go.

Let us remember the WTC towers were the only buildings known to be perfectly demolished in a linear fashion from small aircraft.

Let us remember that pre-placed explosives are the only known devices to accurately implode buildings and melt steel beams.

Yada yada blame jews for everything.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 01:23:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVY-iQDO8pg&feature=plcp

Let's us all remember Israeli cameramen likely of Mossad origin were stationed around the WTC, hours before the 9/11 attack. Many were caught cheering. 6 Israeli men who were caught dancing near the site were detained and quickly let go.

Let us remember the WTC towers were the only buildings known to be perfectly demolished in a linear fashion from small aircraft.

Let us remember that pre-placed explosives are the only known devices to accurately implode buildings and melt steel beams.

Yada yada blame jews for everything.


I am not blaming Jews. I am blaming a group of people of Israeli political origin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw&feature=related


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: vampire on September 11, 2012, 01:28:00 PM
I am not blaming Jews. I am blaming a group of people of Israeli origin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw&feature=related

I think you're confusing with Palestinians.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on September 11, 2012, 01:28:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVY-iQDO8pg&feature=plcp

Let us all remember Israeli cameramen likely of Mossad origin were stationed around the WTC, hours before the 9/11 attack. Many were caught cheering. 5 Israeli men who were caught dancing near the site were detained and quickly let go.

Let us remember the WTC towers were the only buildings known to be perfectly demolished in a linear fashion from small aircraft.

Let us remember that pre-placed explosives are the only known devices to accurately implode buildings and melt steel beams.

Let us remember that WTC7 was not hit by a plane.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: yogi on September 11, 2012, 01:29:18 PM
Building 7, asymmetrical damage leading to a symmetrical collapse  ???


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 01:30:44 PM
I am not blaming Jews. I am blaming a group of people of Israeli origin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw&feature=related

I think you're confusing with Palestinians.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp


The Palestinians don't have the coordination nor the resources to commit this atrocity. They do not have the means to place explosives in the core maintenance corridors throughout the WTC over a month's time. Nor do they have the international clout to bribe US law enforcement into producing irrelevant and fake evidence to mislead the America public.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: vampire on September 11, 2012, 01:33:33 PM
The Palestinians don't have the coordination nor the resources to commit this atrocity. They do not have the means to place explosives in the core maintenance corridors throughout the WTC over a month's time. Nor do they have the international clout to bribe US law enforcement into producing irrelevant and fake evidence to mislead the America public.

May be you should take a class in engineering first? I actually did. Now let me sell you a tinfoil hat.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 01:38:55 PM
The Palestinians don't have the coordination nor the resources to commit this atrocity. They do not have the means to place explosives in the core maintenance corridors throughout the WTC over a month's time. Nor do they have the international clout to bribe US law enforcement into producing irrelevant and fake evidence to mislead the America public.

May be you should take a class in engineering first? I actually did. Now let me sell you a tinfoil hat.

Jet fuel does not melt steel beams. Planes crashes do not create symmetrical demolitions. It doesn't take an engineering degree to figure that much.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: kentrolla on September 11, 2012, 01:58:08 PM
who says the beams have to melt to collapse?

The whole explosives theory is complete bullshit.



Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 01:59:29 PM
who says the beams have to melt to collapse?

How do you think a skyscraper is built?

Did you know the WTC was designed to withstand crashes from aircraft?


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on September 11, 2012, 02:01:39 PM
who says the beams have to melt to collapse?

You're right, they could be cu- oh, wait.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 02:02:39 PM
who says the beams have to melt to collapse?

You're right, they could be cu- oh, wait.

In before somebody thinks a aluminum aircraft can cut through a building's steel support like a Gundam beam sword.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: kentrolla on September 11, 2012, 02:10:43 PM
...

technically the towers did withstand the crash of the planes. The fire is what caused them to collapse. The impact of the plane had nothing to do with it.  Even if no plane hit the buildings, they would still collapse if a fire of that size was allowed to burn for that long.

I understand the theories of how 9/11 could be an inside job. But, the theories about explosives being planted in the buildings just make me facepalm.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 02:14:09 PM
...

technically the towers did withstand the crash of the planes. The fire is what caused them to collapse. The impact of the plane had nothing to do with it.  Even if no plane hit the buildings, they would still collapse if a fire of that size was allowed to burn for that long.

I understand the theories of how 9/11 could be an inside job. But, the theories about explosives being planted in the buildings just make me facepalm.

Like I've said, fires and jet fuel do not melt steel beams. No steel structure like the WTC has totally collapsed due to fire. Ever.

Apparently the WTC are the only buildings of its kind to collapse due to fire.

At the very least, the current story is bullshit.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 02:17:34 PM
The fire is what caused them to collapse.

In all of history, only three steel framed structures have collapsed due to fire. They all happened on 9/11/01.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: kentrolla on September 11, 2012, 02:17:52 PM
when has there ever been a fire fueled by enough jet fuel for a flight from coast to coast?  The fire was clearly out of control and cannot be compared to any other fire.

I'm done arguing about this. It has been discussed way too many times. I'm surprised there are people that still believe in the explosions theory lol. It's been 11 years and there are still people this ignorant.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 02:18:52 PM
when has there ever been a fire fueled by enough jet fuel for a flight from coast to coast?  

WTC #7 wasn't hit by a plane.

http://www.wtc7.net


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 02:23:22 PM
when has there ever been a fire fueled by enough jet fuel for a flight from coast to coast?  The fire was clearly out of control and cannot be compared to any other fire.

I'm done arguing about this. It has been discussed way too many times. I'm surprised there are people that still believe in the explosions theory lol. It's been 11 years and there are still people this ignorant.
Even if the fire were to weaken a few steel beams, the building would still hold up especially with the concrete support structure in the center.

Your belief in "fire that cannot be compared to any other" is purely religious.

Again, no steel structure like the WTC has been known to collapse from fire until now. One of the most well-designed ones isn't likely to be one of them.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: kentrolla on September 11, 2012, 02:23:54 PM
when has there ever been a fire fueled by enough jet fuel for a flight from coast to coast?  

WTC #7 wasn't hit by a plane.

http://www.wtc7.net

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kSq663m0G8


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: kentrolla on September 11, 2012, 02:25:34 PM
when has there ever been a fire fueled by enough jet fuel for a flight from coast to coast?  The fire was clearly out of control and cannot be compared to any other fire.

I'm done arguing about this. It has been discussed way too many times. I'm surprised there are people that still believe in the explosions theory lol. It's been 11 years and there are still people this ignorant.


Your belief in "fire that cannot be compared to any other" is purely religious.


Ok, what would you compare it with then?


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 02:25:52 PM
when has there ever been a fire fueled by enough jet fuel for a flight from coast to coast?  

WTC #7 wasn't hit by a plane.

http://www.wtc7.net

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kSq663m0G8

Yes particles and other small flaming debris can collapse a steel structure. You guys are the nutty ones here.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 02:27:22 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kSq663m0G8

I find it hard to believe that asymmetric damage caused a perfect, near free-fall symmetric collapse. Most of my fellow citizens appear willing to believe anything, judging by the success of government propaganda of the past 100 years.

Skeptical people don't believe what they're told, but the American public does.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 02:28:44 PM
when has there ever been a fire fueled by enough jet fuel for a flight from coast to coast?  The fire was clearly out of control and cannot be compared to any other fire.

I'm done arguing about this. It has been discussed way too many times. I'm surprised there are people that still believe in the explosions theory lol. It's been 11 years and there are still people this ignorant.


Your belief in "fire that cannot be compared to any other" is purely religious.


Ok, what would you compare it with then?

Any other fire. Steel beams in all modern buildings are heavily covered in fireproof material. A steel beam in most research will not reach over 400 degrees Celsius with said coating even when the fire is over 1000 degrees.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 02:30:25 PM
Recent examples of high-rise fires include the 1991 One Meridian Plaza fire in Philadelphia, which raged for 18 hours and gutted 8 floors of the 38-floor building; 1   and the 1988 First Interstate Bank Building fire in Los Angeles, which burned out of control for 3-1/2 hours and gutted 4 floors of the 64 floor tower. Both of these fires were far more severe than any fires seen in Building 7, but those buildings did not collapse. The Los Angeles fire was described as producing "no damage to the main structural members". 2 

http://www.wtc7.net/buildingfires.html


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on September 11, 2012, 02:31:16 PM
To play Big Brother's advocate for a minute, the skin of the planes was made of aluminum. The beams were made of steel. It's conceivable that the aluminum interacted with iron oxide on the beams to produce the thermite reaction, which takes a great deal of heat to activate - easily within jet fuel's capability - but produces even more. Enough, even, to melt those beams like butter under a blowtorch.

Of course, this requires that the skin be essentially powdered, and the beams be very rusty... And still doesn't explain building 7.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 02:34:52 PM
And still doesn't explain building 7.

Building 7 was supposed to be hit by Flight 93, the plane that went down in Pa. They pulled the building anyway and got away with it.

Modern Americans are the most gullible people to ever walk the face of the earth.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 11, 2012, 02:37:48 PM
Also, lol:


During sections of the game (Deus Ex) where the New York skyline is visible in the background, the two towers of the World Trade Center are noticeably missing; the real towers were destroyed a year after the game was released. Harvey Smith has explained that due to texture memory limitations, the portion of the skyline with the twin towers exists in the game's data files but had to be left out of the final game, with the other half mirrored in place of it. According to Smith, during the game's development, the developers justified the lack of the towers by stating that terrorists had destroyed the World Trade Center earlier in the game's storyline.[37] Warren Spector however states "I wish we could say that we did it on purpose and we were sort of seeing the future. But it was actually just a mistake. The artist who did the skybox just uh, left them out. And it sort of worked out in an unfortunate way."


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: hashman on September 11, 2012, 08:20:38 PM
And still doesn't explain building 7.

Building 7 was supposed to be hit by Flight 93, the plane that went down in Pa. They pulled the building anyway and got away with it.

Modern Americans are the most gullible people to ever walk the face of the earth.

How do you figure Americans believe that shit?  Let me guess, Rupert Murdoch told you so? 

Wait a minute, who is gullible? 


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 11, 2012, 09:04:29 PM

Let us remember the WTC towers were the only buildings known to be perfectly demolished in a linear fashion from small aircraft.


I think you have an unusual definition of small. 

All the math and engineering add up for the destruction of the towers exactly as it happened on 9-11 from the aircraft hits.  The buildings would have not fallen without the fire.  The buildings would not have fallen without a key weakness in the floor trusses.   The buildings would not have fallen if the heat insulation on the beams had held or the fire suppression system worked (which would be hard to keep intact knowing what hit them).


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 09:07:20 PM
  Let me guess, Rupert Murdoch told you so? 

Murdoch is banker scum. He pushed the Officially Sanctioned Conspiracy Theory as hard as any of them.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: hashman on September 11, 2012, 10:38:06 PM
  Let me guess, Rupert Murdoch told you so? 

Murdoch is banker scum. He pushed the Officially Sanctioned Conspiracy Theory as hard as any of them.

Can be annoying when people judge the US populace based on what they hear Sky news telling them.  There's plenty to complain about but pick something that has some truth behind it.  Baywatch is not really so popular in the USA, and most new yorkers know it was more than planes and relatively small fires that brought those three steel framed buildings down. 






Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 10:40:48 PM

most new yorkers know it was more than planes and relatively small fires that brought those three steel framed buildings down. 

Quote
NEW POLL OF NEW YORKERS FINDS LINGERING DOUBTS ABOUT OFFICIAL EXPLANATION OF 9/11 ATTACKS, INCLUDING THIRD TOWER’S COLLAPSE


http://rememberbuilding7.org/siena-poll-finds-new-yorkers-doubts-about-911-building-7-linger/


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: interlagos on September 12, 2012, 12:18:00 AM
when has there ever been a fire fueled by enough jet fuel for a flight from coast to coast?  

WTC #7 wasn't hit by a plane.

http://www.wtc7.net

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kSq663m0G8

Here, I found it! At 3:45 in the video above it explains everything!
"Considering that news agencies around the world were reporting that it was on fire and in danger of collapse, it shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone when World Trade Center 7 collapsed as a result of fire"

So it collapsed because the "news agencies" were saying it would. Nice "debunking"!
When "news agencies" get to work, laws of physics don't need to apply anymore...


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: interlagos on September 12, 2012, 12:23:33 AM
I'm done arguing about this. It has been discussed way too many times. I'm surprised there are people that still believe in the explosions theory lol. It's been 11 years and there are still people this ignorant.

Quite the opposite actually - it's surprising that after 11 years there are still people buying into "official story".
The voting on youtube "debunking" video that you posted supports the point.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: tiberiandusk on September 12, 2012, 01:13:42 AM
You guys think we aren't being skeptical enough. You need to realize there's a point where skepticism becomes batshiat insanity.
https://i.imgur.com/fmldN.jpg


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 12, 2012, 01:22:30 AM
You need to realize there's a point where skepticism becomes batshiat insanity.

You'' need to explain to 1700+ architects and civil engineers how insane they are:

http://www.ae911truth.org/

Add hundreds of pilots and aviation employees to your list:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html

The fact of the matter is that no one likes to admit that they've been hoodwinked. Most people will fight might and main to deny they've been fooled. The victims of the various Ponzis on this board that still won't admit they got suckered will usually resort to name calling and calling people nuts in order to avoid the uncomfortable truth.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: tiberiandusk on September 12, 2012, 01:25:08 AM
You need to realize there's a point where skepticism becomes batshiat insanity.

You'' need to explain to 1700+ architects and civil engineers how insane they are:

http://www.ae911truth.org/

Add hundreds of pilots and aviation employees to your list:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html

The fact of the matter is that no one likes to admit that they've been hoodwinked. Most people will fight might and main to deny they've been fooled. The victims of the various Ponzis on this board that still won't admit they got suckered will usually resort to name calling and calling people nuts in order to avoid the uncomfortable truth.

There are a lot of people in the world. It doesn't take long to find a long list of crazies. Look at Fox New's ratings.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 12, 2012, 01:34:50 AM
It doesn't take long to find a long list of crazies.

Almost the entire country believed George W. Bush without question for a couple of years. That's not rational.

Believe what you like. I'd like to think people on this board are smarter than dismissing the considered opinions of professionals with the word "crazy", but after watching the Scamfest, perhaps not.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: tiberiandusk on September 12, 2012, 02:40:15 AM
OK, if not crazy then just misguided. They already know in their hearts it's a conspiracy so when they work the data it ends up agreeing with what they already knew to be "true". Yes there are government cover-ups and fabrications but it is impossible to do something on this scale without someone talking. Someone involved will have an ego and will write a book or give an interview. It's like the moon landing conspiracy. If it really was faked why haven't they faked it again or faked landing on Mars? On 9/11 almost 3,000 people died. Someone would have a conscience and come forward. I'm not saying the government didn't use 9/11 for their own benefit (PATRIOT ACT, Iraq, etc...) but to say that this was an orchestrated event and no one noticed the preparations is silly. Hell, they may have known it was coming and let it happen but the controlled demolition story is beyond ridiculous. How do you drill holes and plant charges in one of the busiest office complexes in the world while it is operating and have nobody notice anything? Have you seen our government working? They couldn't pull off 9/11 even with the blessing of the American people.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: SgtSpike on September 12, 2012, 03:04:21 AM
OK, if not crazy then just misguided. They already know in their hearts it's a conspiracy so when they work the data it ends up agreeing with what they already knew to be "true". Yes there are government cover-ups and fabrications but it is impossible to do something on this scale without someone talking. Someone involved will have an ego and will write a book or give an interview. It's like the moon landing conspiracy. If it really was faked why haven't they faked it again or faked landing on Mars? On 9/11 almost 3,000 people died. Someone would have a conscience and come forward. I'm not saying the government didn't use 9/11 for their own benefit (PATRIOT ACT, Iraq, etc...) but to say that this was an orchestrated event and no one noticed the preparations is silly. Hell, they may have known it was coming and let it happen but the controlled demolition story is beyond ridiculous. How do you drill holes and plant charges in one of the busiest office complexes in the world while it is operating and have nobody notice anything? Have you seen our government working? They couldn't pull off 9/11 even with the blessing of the American people.
The conspiracy video I have mentions something about a work crew suddenly conducted some emergency repairs of the structure (or something along those lines, it's been a while since I've watched it) a week before the towers were hit.  If that's true, it would be an opportune time to conduct such a feat.

I do agree that it would be incredibly difficult to cover it up if it was some sort of inside job just because someone with a conscience would come forward.  Then again, who would want to admit taking part in helping to kill 3,000 people?  Still, it seems someone would have come forward by now.  How many people would have to be involved in a cover-up like this, and none of them have come forward?

That said, the thing that is most suspicious to me is how quickly and perfectly the buildings fell.  I can't imagine that all of the beams in the structure were heated up to the same (failure) temperature at the same time.  And if they weren't, then the failing beams vs the beams not heated to failure should have caused the buildings to topple sideways, not straight down.  Then again, I'm not an engineer by any means, so maybe it's the sort of "straw that broke the camel's back".  If one out of 16 beams fail, then the other 15 can't hold the weight or something.

I don't take sides on this.  To me, there isn't conclusive evidence one way or another.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 12, 2012, 03:08:31 AM
Have you seen our government working? They couldn't pull off 9/11 even with the blessing of the American people.

+1

The entire sequence of events for the twin towers was videotaped.  Even the start of the collapses of each building has no mirror to the trained eye on a controlled demo.  The buildings collapse at the points of impact, a controlled demo is always done from the bottom.  No controlled demo has been done from the top down before.  

On another note,  it is sad that the 'truthers' do not concentrate on the evil things the government has done in the name of 9-11.  They did not do 9-11 but they CERTAINLY TOOK ADVANTAGE OF IT.  All of this controlled demo talk distracts from the evil that has been done in the name of it.  


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on September 12, 2012, 03:12:39 AM
OK, if not crazy then just misguided. They already know in their hearts it's a conspiracy so when they work the data it ends up agreeing with what they already knew to be "true". Yes there are government cover-ups and fabrications but it is impossible to do something on this scale without someone talking.

I'm just going to point out that there were training exercises going on for exactly that scenario, and preparation for a real operation could easily have been hidden in the preparation for the training. I'd also point out that the official story is also a conspiracy theory. A theory that a bunch of Saudis and Egyptians committed suicide at the behest of an Afghani.

Like Spike, I don't really take sides on this, but nothing official adds up.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 12, 2012, 03:20:21 AM
OK, if not crazy then just misguided. They already know in their hearts it's a conspiracy so when they work the data it ends up agreeing with what they already knew to be "true". Yes there are government cover-ups and fabrications but it is impossible to do something on this scale without someone talking. Someone involved will have an ego and will write a book or give an interview. It's like the moon landing conspiracy. If it really was faked why haven't they faked it again or faked landing on Mars? On 9/11 almost 3,000 people died. Someone would have a conscience and come forward. I'm not saying the government didn't use 9/11 for their own benefit (PATRIOT ACT, Iraq, etc...) but to say that this was an orchestrated event and no one noticed the preparations is silly. Hell, they may have known it was coming and let it happen but the controlled demolition story is beyond ridiculous. How do you drill holes and plant charges in one of the busiest office complexes in the world while it is operating and have nobody notice anything? Have you seen our government working? They couldn't pull off 9/11 even with the blessing of the American people.

Of course the US government didn't pull off 9/11.

As for the Israeli Mossad and other independent intelligence agencies, it can be done through them. The CIA has overthrown governments.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 12, 2012, 03:41:02 AM

That said, the thing that is most suspicious to me is how quickly and perfectly the buildings fell.  I can't imagine that all of the beams in the structure were heated up to the same (failure) temperature at the same time.  And if they weren't, then the failing beams vs the beams not heated to failure should have caused the buildings to topple sideways, not straight down.  Then again, I'm not an engineer by any means, so maybe it's the sort of "straw that broke the camel's back".  If one out of 16 beams fail, then the other 15 can't hold the weight or something.

I don't take sides on this.  To me, there isn't conclusive evidence one way or another.

They didn't fall cleanly, watch the videos from all sides.  There is conclusive evidence of EXACTLY each single point of failure and how it contributed EXACTLY to the failure that took place.  

Not too detailed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

Detailed:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=27&ved=0CEMQFjAGOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.purdue.edu%2Fhomes%2Fcmh%2Fdistribution%2FPapersChron%2FWTC_I%2520Engineering%2520Perspective.pdf&ei=LgNQUJyqBNS60AG90YCQCA&usg=AFQjCNFpnVthtMJ9XD8yFJMiuyI5IrvNug&cad=rja


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: kentrolla on September 12, 2012, 03:47:08 AM

That said, the thing that is most suspicious to me is how quickly and perfectly the buildings fell.  I can't imagine that all of the beams in the structure were heated up to the same (failure) temperature at the same time.  And if they weren't, then the failing beams vs the beams not heated to failure should have caused the buildings to topple sideways, not straight down.  Then again, I'm not an engineer by any means, so maybe it's the sort of "straw that broke the camel's back".  If one out of 16 beams fail, then the other 15 can't hold the weight or something.

I don't take sides on this.  To me, there isn't conclusive evidence one way or another.

They didn't fall cleanly, watch the videos from all sides.  There is conclusive evidence of EXACTLY each single point of failure and how it contributed EXACTLY to the failure that took place.  

Not too detailed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

Detailed:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=27&ved=0CEMQFjAGOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.purdue.edu%2Fhomes%2Fcmh%2Fdistribution%2FPapersChron%2FWTC_I%2520Engineering%2520Perspective.pdf&ei=LgNQUJyqBNS60AG90YCQCA&usg=AFQjCNFpnVthtMJ9XD8yFJMiuyI5IrvNug&cad=rja
nobody is going to read that in fear that they will be proven wrong. The people that believe the demolition theories rely on making uninformed opinions. If you give them too much information they won't be able to formulate such an opinion anymore. Where's the fun in that?

also, since the information didn't come from wtc7.net, its probably just lies perpetrated by the zionist controlled media.
Purdue is definitely in on this hoax


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Snapman on September 12, 2012, 03:47:29 AM
9/11 Was An Inside Job.
 
'nuff said.

Its hard for some of us to really grasp all the variables involved in the the 2 larger towers, requiring a couple of college degrees just to understand it all, but WTC7 was just some straight out bullshit. If you actually believe the shit that came out of their mouths for that, you need to just end your life now, for the good of humanity and the gene pool.

http://youtu.be/6mxFRigYD3s - Somebody really dropped the ball on this one.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: SgtSpike on September 12, 2012, 04:17:26 AM

That said, the thing that is most suspicious to me is how quickly and perfectly the buildings fell.  I can't imagine that all of the beams in the structure were heated up to the same (failure) temperature at the same time.  And if they weren't, then the failing beams vs the beams not heated to failure should have caused the buildings to topple sideways, not straight down.  Then again, I'm not an engineer by any means, so maybe it's the sort of "straw that broke the camel's back".  If one out of 16 beams fail, then the other 15 can't hold the weight or something.

I don't take sides on this.  To me, there isn't conclusive evidence one way or another.

They didn't fall cleanly, watch the videos from all sides.  There is conclusive evidence of EXACTLY each single point of failure and how it contributed EXACTLY to the failure that took place.  

Not too detailed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

Detailed:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=27&ved=0CEMQFjAGOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.purdue.edu%2Fhomes%2Fcmh%2Fdistribution%2FPapersChron%2FWTC_I%2520Engineering%2520Perspective.pdf&ei=LgNQUJyqBNS60AG90YCQCA&usg=AFQjCNFpnVthtMJ9XD8yFJMiuyI5IrvNug&cad=rja
That Purdue paper is very cool.  I would love to see the actual simulation.

It does help to see that steel heating up loses strength slowly.  According to their graph, it starts rapidly losing strength around 500C, and is down to around 20% strength at 700C.  So if some of the support columns are at 600C, and some are at 700C, they're all pretty close to collapsing, and if some of the 700C ones go, it could take the 600C ones with it.

Here's an interesting site I just stumbled upon with loads of calculations if anyone is interested:  http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/how-hot.htm

Oh, and here's the 700MB 9/11 conspiracy video.  It's older, but brings up some good points.  Would love to hear some counterpoints!
http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/374562/9_11_Conspiracy.avi

EDIT:  Ugh, that's a terrible file hosting site.  What's better?


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: hashman on September 12, 2012, 04:56:49 AM

Almost the entire country believed George W. Bush without question for a couple of years.


??
Sorry if I am missing sarcasm yet again, but that is total bullshit.  What on earth would make you think that?   

--

In other news, so as not to be left out of the circle jerk, here's my youtube link.
9-11 Explained in 5 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLXyB5GtfBU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLXyB5GtfBU)




Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on September 12, 2012, 06:24:34 AM
Hey, while we still have our tin hats on, anyone ever find the gold that was stolen from building 4 (http://911review.com/motive/gold.html#ref4)?


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: SgtMoth on September 12, 2012, 07:07:10 AM
or the 2 trillion missing from the pent, enough of a motive to pull a job like that, or let it happen.  But the biggest question, in my mind, will always be, what brought down building 7...


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: interlagos on September 12, 2012, 10:19:53 AM

Almost the entire country believed George W. Bush without question for a couple of years.


??
Sorry if I am missing sarcasm yet again, but that is total bullshit.  What on earth would make you think that?   

--

In other news, so as not to be left out of the circle jerk, here's my youtube link.
9-11 Explained in 5 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLXyB5GtfBU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLXyB5GtfBU)


The best 9/11 video so far! Hilarious :)


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on September 12, 2012, 10:28:35 AM

Almost the entire country believed George W. Bush without question for a couple of years.


??
Sorry if I am missing sarcasm yet again, but that is total bullshit.  What on earth would make you think that?   

--

In other news, so as not to be left out of the circle jerk, here's my youtube link.
9-11 Explained in 5 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLXyB5GtfBU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLXyB5GtfBU)


The best 9/11 video so far! Hilarious :)

Agreed. Awesome vid.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 12, 2012, 10:39:03 AM
Sorry if I am missing sarcasm yet again, but that is total bullshit.  What on earth would make you think that?

Remember Bin Laden's "Mountain Fortress" (http://)? Bush and Rumsfeld fed that shit to Americans and they ate it up like candy.

That's just one example. I'll give you more if you like.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: interlagos on September 12, 2012, 11:35:51 AM
If you check out Bitcoin2012 conference speakers list, you will find the name Field McConnell.
https://sites.google.com/a/bitcoin2012.com/homepage/speakers
He seems to have found a good explanation of how aircraft have been maneuvered into buildings.

Quote
Field McConnell: economics, transport flying 19,000+ hours, fighter flying 3700+ hours, total flying 23000+ hours, Marine, Navy AirForce experience. On December 10, 2006, Field McConnell reported the illegal weaponization of Boeing commercial aircraft to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), Northwest Airlines, Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), NORAD and the USNA Superintendent. Shortly thereafter, Northwest Airlines, compelled by the United States Department of Justice (USDoJ), silenced Field McConnell due to his inadvertent re-opening of a safety issue closed in the June 2006 $615 million settlement paid by Boeing to the United States Department of Justice (USDOJ).

In the warnings, Field McConnell alleged that his study of September 11, 2001 lead him to believe that at least 108 Boeing airliners were in service that had been modified with QRS11 GyroChips (electronic hijack) and "something more sinister".

Boeing admitted on March 3, 2007 the existence of the Boeing Uninterruptable Autopilot. To date, 9 February, 2012, Airline Pilots Association (ALPA) has suppressed this information.

Crime-scene investigation radio station co-host for leaderless private intelligence agency Abel Danger (abeldanger.net / C2CSI.info).


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: hashman on September 12, 2012, 01:50:06 PM
Sorry if I am missing sarcasm yet again, but that is total bullshit.  What on earth would make you think that?

Remember Bin Laden's "Mountain Fortress" (http://)? Bush and Rumsfeld fed that shit to Americans and they ate it up like candy.

That's just one example. I'll give you more if you like.

Obviously you ain't from around here, son.
And you eating some effed up candy, if you think people bought that shit for a nanosecond.



Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 12, 2012, 01:57:16 PM
And you eating some effed up candy, if you think people bought that shit for a nanosecond.

Millions of people bought it just long enough for the propaganda to be effective.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: BIGMERVE on September 12, 2012, 03:47:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVY-iQDO8pg&feature=plcp

Let us all remember Israeli cameramen likely of Mossad origin were stationed around the WTC, hours before the 9/11 attack. Many were caught cheering. 5 Israeli men who were caught dancing near the site were detained and quickly let go.

Let us remember the WTC towers were the only buildings known to be perfectly demolished in a linear fashion from small aircraft.

Let us remember that pre-placed explosives are the only known devices to accurately implode buildings and melt steel beams.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw&feature=related

The buildings were hit with some of the largest planes on the planet, going as fast as they could travel, and filled with enough jet fuel to cross the country.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: dancupid on September 12, 2012, 04:27:25 PM
I'm not an American - yayyy!
Either way - Bin Laden or conspiracy it hasn't impacted on my life ever for even 1 second.
I played minecraft yesterday with absolutely no 911 consequences, and then me and my wife (my wife and I for you grammar buffs) went out for a nice meal.
I suspect my life tomorrow will be pretty similar (except my wife will be cooking).
No consequences for me, so hence I don't give a shit.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: interlagos on September 12, 2012, 05:09:01 PM
I'm not an American - yayyy!
Either way - Bin Laden or conspiracy it hasn't impacted on my life ever for even 1 second.
I played minecraft yesterday with absolutely no 911 consequences, and then me and my wife (my wife and I for you grammar buffs) went out for a nice meal.
I suspect my life tomorrow will be pretty similar (except my wife will be cooking).
No consequences for me, so hence I don't give a shit.


No consequences until you will be flying with your wife on a Boeing modified with QRS11 GyroChips (electronic hijack) Boeing Uninterruptable Autopilot and they decide to pull a trigger.
Thanks, but no thanks.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: dancupid on September 12, 2012, 05:18:00 PM
I'm not an American - yayyy!
Either way - Bin Laden or conspiracy it hasn't impacted on my life ever for even 1 second.
I played minecraft yesterday with absolutely no 911 consequences, and then me and my wife (my wife and I for you grammar buffs) went out for a nice meal.
I suspect my life tomorrow will be pretty similar (except my wife will be cooking).
No consequences for me, so hence I don't give a shit.


No consequences until you will be flying with your wife on a Boeing modified with QRS11 GyroChips (electronic hijack) Boeing Uninterruptable Autopilot and they decide to pull a trigger.
Thanks, but no thanks.

I'll remember to ask the stewardess or just straight tell her I'm a little mentally ill.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: benjamindees on September 12, 2012, 05:35:40 PM
thermite reaction, which takes a great deal of heat to activate - easily within jet fuel's capability

Nope.

Quote
Thermite is typically very difficult to ignite, requiring a temperature of over 3,000 degrees F just to get the reaction started.

www.unitednuclear.com/thermiteinfo.pdf


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: benjamindees on September 12, 2012, 05:43:47 PM
The conspiracy video I have mentions something about a work crew suddenly conducted some emergency repairs of the structure (or something along those lines, it's been a while since I've watched it) a week before the towers were hit.  If that's true, it would be an opportune time to conduct such a feat.

There was an elevator renovation going on, with something like 90 workers from the Ace Elevator Co. in the buildings in the weeks leading up to 9/11.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/jmftexas/5378328_std.jpg


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: SysRun on September 12, 2012, 06:03:46 PM
perhaps you all missed this article from 2005.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842

Let's use science and reason instead of FUD.

I'm sorry that some of you had crappy/absent fathers which lead you to hate and distrust all authority figures. The good news is, you're normal. Given your upbringing its understandable that you would be geared to conspiracy theory appeal.

Now here's an anecdotal story. I have a relative who believes he is part of something called the Third Secret Order of the Holy Grail. He is awaiting the 5th Dimensional ascension of Gaia. According to him it will happen in December, coinciding with the end of one of the Mayan calendars. He distrusts all government or religious organizations except for the one he belongs to. He believes that knowledge will come from a person's "heart" instead of from any scientific method.

Why am I even posting in an Atlas thread? Maybe I just needed to get the crazy relative stuff off my chest. I don't expect my post to help anyone, though i wish it would.

The bottom line is, apply scientific method to your beliefs and you'll have more control and understanding of the world around you. Cheers.



Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 12, 2012, 06:06:10 PM
The buildings were hit with some of the largest planes on the planet, going as fast as they could travel, and filled with enough jet fuel to cross the country.

Again, WTC 7 wasn't hit by a plane. Facts are stubborn things.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 12, 2012, 06:07:28 PM
apply scientific method

That advice should be given to NIST.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: foggyb on September 12, 2012, 06:10:02 PM
perhaps you all missed this article from 2005.

Let's use science and reason instead of FUD.



Who cares what popular mechanics thinks? Do you think they are some sort of accredited agency? They sell magazines for a living.



Meanwhile, are you willing to ignore that the co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission (Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton) said that the CIA (and likely the White House) “obstructed our investigation”?


9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says “I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right”, that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only “the first draft” of history.

9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that “There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . We didn’t have access . .”

9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said “We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting”.



The Popular Science article you linked names the 9/11 commission as an "excellent source" of information (on 9/11).

"The goal of this book..." (Debunking 9/11 Myths) "..is not to tell the complete story of what happened on September 11, 2001. There are numerous excellent sources, including the 9-11 Commission’s report, the National Institute of Standards and Technology reports, and articles in the New York Times and other newspapers that chronicle the attacks in painful detail."

Wake up.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 12, 2012, 06:29:46 PM
For an edgy board devoted to Stateless money, there are some true statophiles here.

Does not compute.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: benjamindees on September 12, 2012, 06:58:32 PM
For an edgy board devoted to Stateless money, there are some true statophiles here.

Does not compute.

Around the time that Gavin gave his talk to the CIA, the number one source of traffic was Washington, DC.  Some of them stuck around.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 12, 2012, 07:01:31 PM
Around the time that Gavin gave his talk to the CIA, the number one source of traffic was Washington, DC.  Some of them stuck around.

I thought I detected the air of Federal pension. Thanks for confirmation.

I wonder how many blocks have been discovered around Langely?  :)


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: hashman on September 12, 2012, 07:06:05 PM
perhaps you all missed this article from 2005.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842


Cue cut and paste response :D

Quote
Wow!  That's great.  I can put my mind to rest now.
I was almost convinced by thousands of pilots, architects, metallurgists, scientists of all kinds with evidence of thermite residue at ground zero and the laws of physics on their side.
But now, there's a couple of guys who like fixing cars and played with mechano when they were young.
They've explained the whole thing to me.
I can see now that all the other engineers and scientists and the evidence of my very own fucking eyes cannot be believed.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: SgtSpike on September 12, 2012, 07:23:05 PM
The conspiracy video I have mentions something about a work crew suddenly conducted some emergency repairs of the structure (or something along those lines, it's been a while since I've watched it) a week before the towers were hit.  If that's true, it would be an opportune time to conduct such a feat.

There was an elevator renovation going on, with something like 90 workers from the Ace Elevator Co. in the buildings in the weeks leading up to 9/11.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/jmftexas/5378328_std.jpg

I rewatched the video last night because this thread got me curious again.  It stated that some large 24/7 security teams (or so they claimed to be) were assigned to the structure 3 weeks prior to the attack, due to bomb threats.  Then, bomb sniffing dogs were abruptly removed 1 week from the attack.  Probably just a coincidence, but interesting nonetheless.

Seriously, everyone interested in this on either side of the debate should watch that video.  Lots of it is coincidental, but it brings up some interesting points with detailed documentation to show for it.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: CoinDiver on September 12, 2012, 07:25:10 PM
How do you reconcile the obviously fake impact crater of Flight 93 with the theories that government was or was not involved?

If the government was involved, why shoot down the plane and fake an impact crater?

If the government was not involved, why should we believe 100% of the official story after they covered up the shooting down of Flight 93?


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: foggyb on September 12, 2012, 07:43:12 PM
To play Big Brother's advocate for a minute, the skin of the planes was made of aluminum. The beams were made of steel. It's conceivable that the aluminum interacted with iron oxide on the beams to produce the thermite reaction, which takes a great deal of heat to activate - easily within jet fuel's capability - but produces even more. Enough, even, to melt those beams like butter under a blowtorch.

Of course, this requires that the skin be essentially powdered, and the beams be very rusty... And still doesn't explain building 7.

Can thermite make itself?

How to make (and ignite) thermite:

You need fine aluminum powder (not a crumpled up airplane skin),
pure iron oxide (not a rusty pillar),
thorough mixing of ingredients (no, an explosion will not do)
precise application. (an explosion is the opposite of precise.)
and finally, a 3000 Fahrenheit ignition source (burning jet fuel isn't close).

Conclusion: Not plausible. We need pure ingredients and ideal conditions.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 12, 2012, 11:14:50 PM
How do you reconcile the obviously fake impact crater of Flight 93 with the theories that government was or was not involved?

If the government was involved, why shoot down the plane and fake an impact crater?

If the government was not involved, why should we believe 100% of the official story after they covered up the shooting down of Flight 93?

Seriously?  Where do people come up with this stuff? 

The impact crater for flight 93 is consistent with other plane impact craters.  Just because YOU do not know what an impact crater looks like does not mean it is a conspiracy. 

http://www.unitedflight93.com/


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on September 12, 2012, 11:16:30 PM
Nope.

Can thermite make itself?

I stand corrected. It was a longshot theory anyway.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Fjordbit on September 13, 2012, 01:06:46 AM
Now here's an anecdotal story. I have a relative who believes he is part of something called the Third Secret Order of the Holy Grail. He is awaiting the 5th Dimensional ascension of Gaia. According to him it will happen in December, coinciding with the end of one of the Mayan calendars.

Holy crap!

That's also close to the time that the BitCoin reward halves. Coincidence? I think not.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Transisto on September 13, 2012, 04:56:54 AM
@ OP,
You could have taken random video from a "9/11" youtube search and you'd have come up with better content.

For fuck sake have you every heard of "Architects & Engineers For 9/11 Truth" movement ?
Quote
"...Israeli cameramen likely ... were caught cheering..."
... SO FUCKING WHAT !,,,

This is the most relevant information you've manage to come up with on this 11 year old event ?

And you felt that was worthy of making a new topic on a Bitcoin related forum ?




Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on September 13, 2012, 05:00:52 AM
And you felt that was worthy of making it a new topic on a Bitcoin related forum ?

And you felt it was worthy of bumping back up to the top of the page?

Check the subforum you're in. Don't like this sort of thing, don't come in here.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Transisto on September 13, 2012, 05:07:04 AM
And you felt that was worthy of making it a new topic on a Bitcoin related forum ?

And you felt it was worthy of bumping back up to the top of the page?

Check the subforum you're in. Don't like this sort of thing, don't come in here.
Ouch, if you're relying on "latest post" to read this forum,  I feel for you.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on September 13, 2012, 05:20:05 AM
And you felt that was worthy of making it a new topic on a Bitcoin related forum ?

And you felt it was worthy of bumping back up to the top of the page?

Check the subforum you're in. Don't like this sort of thing, don't come in here.
Ouch, if you're relying on "latest post" to read this forum,  I feel for you.

Assumptions make an ASS out of U and MPTION.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: hashman on September 13, 2012, 05:28:28 AM
@ OP,
You could have taken random video from a "9/11" youtube search and you'd have come up with better content.

For fuck sake have you every heard of "Architects & Engineers For 9/11 Truth" movement ?
Quote
"...Israeli cameramen likely ... were caught cheering..."
... SO FUCKING WHAT !,,,

This is the most relevant information you've manage to come up with on this 11 year old event ?

And you felt that was worthy of making a new topic on a Bitcoin related forum ?



+1


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: SgtSpike on September 13, 2012, 05:40:42 AM
Ok, dropbox link for the video instead:  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/76051207/9_11_Conspiracy.avi

It should let you stream.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on September 13, 2012, 05:45:43 AM
Ok, dropbox link for the video instead:  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/76051207/9_11_Conspiracy.avi

It should let you stream.

Works great.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: benjamindees on September 13, 2012, 02:59:17 PM
Quote
"...Israeli cameramen likely ... were caught cheering..."
... SO FUCKING WHAT !,,,

Israelis, with a camera (not a camera-phone, this was 2001), in a moving van.  An Israeli "moving company" that shut down and returned to Israel shortly thereafter.  Who told the arresting officers "we are not your enemy."  Who later said, on Israeli television, that their purpose was to "document the event".

Quote
This is the most relevant information you've manage to come up with on this 11 year old event ?

And you felt that was worthy of making a new topic on a Bitcoin related forum ?

Oh boy, now I get to explain the relevance of 9/11 to Bitcoin.

http://www.milaircomms.com/images/20tradecenter.jpg (http://www.milaircomms.com/folding20.html)

September 24, 1998: Received a completely new appearance to further deter counterfeiting; the picture of the White House was changed to the north side view. A larger, off-center portrait of Jackson was used on front, and several anti-counterfeiting features were added, including color-shifting ink, microprinting, and a watermark. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_twenty-dollar_bill)

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000211494/polls_911_simpsons_5630_727607_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

The Simpsons visit New York in 1997 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1x1A7KMq9s)


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Transisto on September 13, 2012, 04:07:57 PM
Are you serious ?

I think this subject deserve more respect than that.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: benjamindees on September 13, 2012, 08:39:05 PM
Are you serious ?

I think this subject deserve more respect than that.

You're not American, are you?


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: CoinDiver on September 14, 2012, 01:45:07 PM
How do you reconcile the obviously fake impact crater of Flight 93 with the theories that government was or was not involved?

If the government was involved, why shoot down the plane and fake an impact crater?

If the government was not involved, why should we believe 100% of the official story after they covered up the shooting down of Flight 93?
The impact crater for flight 93 is consistent with other plane impact craters.

Please, show me one single other plane impact crater that looks like the one left by Flight 93. That plane was shot down. This comes from personal conversations with former air force, current commercial pilots.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Atlas on September 14, 2012, 01:58:22 PM
Are you serious ?

I think this subject deserve more respect than that.

You're not American, are you?

His English and interpretation of the subject matter makes it rather clear. I will go as far as to say his inferiority-complex proves it.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 14, 2012, 05:34:30 PM

Please, show me one single other plane impact crater that looks like the one left by Flight 93. That plane was shot down. This comes from personal conversations with former air force, current commercial pilots.

Even Rumsfeld said it was shot down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Xoxaf1Al0


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: CoinDiver on September 14, 2012, 06:50:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUzrHHDu96U


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 14, 2012, 08:11:30 PM
How do you reconcile the obviously fake impact crater of Flight 93 with the theories that government was or was not involved?

If the government was involved, why shoot down the plane and fake an impact crater?

If the government was not involved, why should we believe 100% of the official story after they covered up the shooting down of Flight 93?
The impact crater for flight 93 is consistent with other plane impact craters.

Please, show me one single other plane impact crater that looks like the one left by Flight 93. That plane was shot down. This comes from personal conversations with former air force, current commercial pilots.

That does not even take 5 SECONDS of thought.  A plane shot down would leave debris over a large area, but the 'truther' movement concentrates their effort on how SMALL the crater is. 


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 14, 2012, 08:17:33 PM
A plane shot down would leave debris over a large area

It did leave a debris field over a large area.

Quote
"A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash scene. Some debris was in the lake and some was adjacent to the lake. "More debris from the plane was found in New Baltimore, some 8 miles away from the crash. "State police and the FBI initially said they didn't want to speculate whether the debris was from the crash, or if the plane could have broken up in midair." 1 

Additionally, Flight 93's debris field covered anywhere from three to six miles and, as CNN reported, pieces of the plane were found six to eight miles from the main impact area: "Authorities also said another debris site had been cordoned off six to eight miles away from the original crash debris site." 2 
State police Maj. Lyle Szupinka said investigators also will be searching a pond behind the crash site looking for the other recorder and other debris. If necessary, divers may be brought in to assist search teams, or the pond may be drained, he said.

Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft "at a considerable distance from the crash site."

"It appears to be the whole engine," he added.

Szupinka said most of the remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a "briefcase." 3 

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/attack/flight93site.html


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 14, 2012, 09:49:32 PM
A plane shot down would leave debris over a large area

It did leave a debris field over a large area.

Quote
"A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash scene. Some debris was in the lake and some was adjacent to the lake. "More debris from the plane was found in New Baltimore, some 8 miles away from the crash. "State police and the FBI initially said they didn't want to speculate whether the debris was from the crash, or if the plane could have broken up in midair." 1 

Additionally, Flight 93's debris field covered anywhere from three to six miles and, as CNN reported, pieces of the plane were found six to eight miles from the main impact area: "Authorities also said another debris site had been cordoned off six to eight miles away from the original crash debris site." 2 
State police Maj. Lyle Szupinka said investigators also will be searching a pond behind the crash site looking for the other recorder and other debris. If necessary, divers may be brought in to assist search teams, or the pond may be drained, he said.

Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft "at a considerable distance from the crash site."

"It appears to be the whole engine," he added.

Szupinka said most of the remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a "briefcase." 3 

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/attack/flight93site.html

You are entitled to your own opinions.... you are not entitled to your own facts. 
 
So you think that paper and insulation that blew to Indian Lake constitutes a six mile debris field?


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: CoinDiver on September 14, 2012, 10:02:40 PM
... you are not entitled to your own facts.

Seems you are only entitled to government "facts".

So I'll reiterate. Please show me one single other airplane impact site/crater than lacked an airplane (excluding the one that went down in the everglades, for obvious reasons). That site is missing a plane, bodies, luggage, debris... etc.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 14, 2012, 10:27:04 PM
So you think that paper and insulation that blew to Indian Lake constitutes a six mile debris field?

Moving the goalposts?

Your original statement:

Quote
A plane shot down would leave debris over a large area

It's well known that Flight 93 left a wide debris field. Full engines don't blow around.

We're all entitled to our opinions. I try to conform my opinion to what's known, not what I want to believe.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 14, 2012, 10:47:03 PM
... you are not entitled to your own facts.

Seems you are only entitled to government "facts".

So I'll reiterate. Please show me one single other airplane impact site/crater than lacked an airplane (excluding the one that went down in the everglades, for obvious reasons). That site is missing a plane, bodies, luggage, debris... etc.

Bodies do tend to turn into vapor when hitting things at 500mph.  The debris at the site are quite consistent with what would be expected.  Most of the metal is there.  

Pretty much all of the wt7 site lies are addressed here including crash sites.
https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/flight93page2


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 14, 2012, 10:48:04 PM
So you think that paper and insulation that blew to Indian Lake constitutes a six mile debris field?

Moving the goalposts?

Your original statement:

Quote
A plane shot down would leave debris over a large area

It's well known that Flight 93 left a wide debris field. Full engines don't blow around.

We're all entitled to our opinions. I try to conform my opinion to what's known, not what I want to believe.

Thats right, they don't.  Engines along with everything else with any weight was in the hole in the ground. 


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 14, 2012, 10:59:20 PM
Engines along with everything else with any weight was in the hole in the ground. 

An engine core was 2000 feet from the crater.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: miln40 on September 15, 2012, 12:35:05 AM
What I don't understand from the conspiracy theory angle is that if they did plan it, how did they keep the secret from coming out? Say what you will, governments are not really good about keeping big secrets. And with a false flag operation of this scale surely some documents would have made it to the public.
Conspiracy theorists have no hard evidence, and the fact that there is no hard evidence for their theories speaks a lot by itself.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 15, 2012, 01:54:52 AM
Engines along with everything else with any weight was in the hole in the ground. 

An engine core was 2000 feet from the crater.

Roving Engine
Claim: One of Flight 93's engines was found "at a considerable distance from the crash site," according to Lyle Szupinka, a state police officer on the scene who was quoted in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Offering no evidence, a posting on Rense.com claimed: "The main body of the engine ... was found miles away from the main wreckage site with damage comparable to that which a heat-seeking missile would do to an airliner."

FACT: Experts on the scene tell PM that a fan from one of the engines was recovered in a catchment basin, downhill from the crash site. Jeff Reinbold, the National Park Service representative responsible for the Flight 93 National Memorial, confirms the direction and distance from the crash site to the basin: just over 300 yards south, which means the fan landed in the direction the jet was traveling. "It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards." Numerous crash analysts contacted by PM concur.

Read more: 9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - Flight 93 - Popular Mechanics

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-flight-93


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 15, 2012, 02:05:30 AM
FACT: Experts... 

Let's review:

First you claimed that if the plane was shot down, there would have been a wide debris field. After being shown the wide debris field, you then said the wind blew papers and insulation around and that all heavy objects were in the crater. After being shown that at least one engine wasn't in the crater but was about a half mile from it, you post a link to a mass market magazine that also pushed the "wind blew the papers around" theory.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 15, 2012, 02:13:26 AM
FACT: Experts...  

Let's review:

First you claimed that if the plane was shot down, there would have been a wide debris field. After being shown the wide debris field, you then said the wind blew papers and insulation around and that all heavy objects were in the crater. After being shown that at least one engine wasn't in the crater but was about a half mile from it, you post a link to a mass market magazine that also pushed the "wind blew the papers around" theory.


There was not a wide debris field.  You are not reading.  Anything that you do not agree with is "mass market" , "government data" etc.  

The engine WAS in the crater.  A single piece of the engine (not the core but the front fan) was 300 yards away in the direction of travel.  Makes sense to me.  

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/images/9O/911-flight93-map.jpg



Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 15, 2012, 02:17:28 AM

There was not a wide debris field. 

Eight miles from the crash site is a wide debris field.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 15, 2012, 02:37:46 AM

There was not a wide debris field.  

Eight miles from the crash site is a wide debris field.
Nothing heavy went more then 300 yards.   Only light paper an insulation went any distance.



Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 15, 2012, 02:44:18 AM

Only light paper an insulation went any distance.

I tend to take an eyewitness description of a cop that was there over the words of those of us that weren't:

Quote
State police Maj. Lyle Szupinka said investigators also will be searching a pond
behind the crash site looking for the other recorder and other debris. If
necessary, divers may be brought in to assist search teams, or the pond may be
drained, he said.

Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft "at a
considerable distance from the crash site."

"It appears to be the whole engine," he added.

Szupinka said most of the remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that
stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a "briefcase."

"If you were to go down there, you wouldn't know that was a plane crash," he
continued. "You would look around and say, `I wonder what happened here?' The
first impression looking around you wouldn't say, `Oh, looks like a plane crash.
The debris is very, very small.

http://www.flight93crash.com/whole_engine.txt

I'll be happy to post more eyewitness testimony if need be. It's more fruitful than reading a magazine article by someone that wasn't even there.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 15, 2012, 02:49:28 AM

Only light paper an insulation went any distance.

I tend to take an eyewitness description of a cop that was there over the words of those of us that weren't:

Quote
State police Maj. Lyle Szupinka said investigators also will be searching a pond
behind the crash site looking for the other recorder and other debris. If
necessary, divers may be brought in to assist search teams, or the pond may be
drained, he said.

Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft "at a
considerable distance from the crash site."

"It appears to be the whole engine," he added.

Szupinka said most of the remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that
stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a "briefcase."

"If you were to go down there, you wouldn't know that was a plane crash," he
continued. "You would look around and say, `I wonder what happened here?' The
first impression looking around you wouldn't say, `Oh, looks like a plane crash.
The debris is very, very small.

http://www.flight93crash.com/whole_engine.txt

I'll be happy to post more eyewitness testimony if need be. It's more fruitful than reading a magazine article by someone that wasn't even there.

They have a picture of the engine core being dug from the crater.  The thing that guy thought was the engine was just the fan, and for him 300 yards was considerable distance. 


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 15, 2012, 02:57:52 AM
They have a picture of the engine core being dug from the crater.  The thing that guy thought was the engine was just the fan, and for him 300 yards was considerable distance. 



Quote
As a state police fire marshal and criminal investigator, Trooper John F. Marshall has seen his share of gruesome crime scenes...

For the first two or three days, Marshall walked the surrounding countryside looking for airplane parts.

"I found a lot of parts," said Marshall, who was awarded a 2000 Law Enforcement Agency Directors award for identifying a man nearly four years after he was found murdered.

"The biggest part I found was one of the plane's engines. It was about 600 yards from the crash site itself. I think they took it out with a winch on a bulldozer."

Marshall, who served four years in the Air Force, said he found many parts that he couldn't specifically identify.

The Sharon Herald  (http://web.archive.org/web/20020607193748/http:/www.sharon-herald.com/localnews/recentnews/0110/ln100801c.html)
Monday, Oct. 8, 2001


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 15, 2012, 03:04:37 AM
They have a picture of the engine core being dug from the crater.  The thing that guy thought was the engine was just the fan, and for him 300 yards was considerable distance. 



Quote
As a state police fire marshal and criminal investigator, Trooper John F. Marshall has seen his share of gruesome crime scenes...

For the first two or three days, Marshall walked the surrounding countryside looking for airplane parts.

"I found a lot of parts," said Marshall, who was awarded a 2000 Law Enforcement Agency Directors award for identifying a man nearly four years after he was found murdered.

"The biggest part I found was one of the plane's engines. It was about 600 yards from the crash site itself. I think they took it out with a winch on a bulldozer."

Marshall, who served four years in the Air Force, said he found many parts that he couldn't specifically identify.

The Sharon Herald  (http://web.archive.org/web/20020607193748/http:/www.sharon-herald.com/localnews/recentnews/0110/ln100801c.html)
Monday, Oct. 8, 2001

While inaccurate, he did not measure, he guessed.  The measurement is 300 yards UNLESS THE GOVERNMENT MOVED THE POND. 





Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 15, 2012, 03:11:01 AM
On another point.... what is the point?

The American people accept that fighters where out there and would have shot hijacked planes down if they could that day.  While the facts do not support a shoot down, would it be a conspiracy?   Sure it would have changed the sentiment around that flight but it would not even be earth shattering even if i did happen.  This flight 93 conspiracy theory is even dumber then the trade center stuff. 


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 15, 2012, 03:33:49 AM
The American people accept that...

This is the fallacy of False Attribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_attribution).


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on September 15, 2012, 03:44:11 AM
The American people accept that...

This is the fallacy of False Attribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_attribution).
Disagree.  It was well publicized in pretty much every 911 documentary I have seen that they were ready to shoot down hijacked planes.  Having another plane crash into an occupied area would cause more death and everyone inside the plane is dead anyhow.   A shoot down would not change much other then maybe make the government LOOK MORE COMPETENT. 


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Severian on September 15, 2012, 07:40:08 AM

Disagree.  It was well publicized in pretty much every 911 documentary I have seen that they were ready to shoot down hijacked planes.  

That may or may not be. It's still a logical fallacy to invoke the American people and their acceptance of something.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: dancupid on September 15, 2012, 05:13:52 PM
Let's hope the 911 special scientific investigator people team (NESSIPt) are watching this thread (or the 20000 others on youtube) so they can finally come to a timely (and long waited for) conclusion to these terrible events.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: foggyb on October 24, 2012, 07:51:17 PM
What I don't understand from the conspiracy theory angle is that if they did plan it, how did they keep the secret from coming out? Say what you will, governments are not really good about keeping big secrets.

Conspiracy theorists have no hard evidence, and the fact that there is no hard evidence for their theories speaks a lot by itself.

As far as I can tell, we could uncover new evidence related to 9/11, and previously unknown information can still be revealed.

I think that comprehensively refutes your point.

As for hard evidence, the tower collapse in itself is hard evidence, as no steel-framed skyscraper has ever, before or since, collapsed due to fire. Since the NIST report said that the kerosene fires alone were the cause of the collapse, the conspiracy starts there.

And with a false flag operation of this scale surely some documents would have made it to the public.

Your conjecture is that documents would exist, if there were a conspiracy. That's not a fact, that's your opinion. It is possible that there were documents which were all (wisely) destroyed. Or there could still be hidden documents in the hands of people who want to reveal them, but they don't, out of fear for themselves and/or their families. I don't claim this to be true, its just a hypothesis.

Furthermore, if this is such a massively scaled operation, requiring a lot of planning, how could terrorists in caves pull it off, and more importantly, where is their damn documentation?  (I'm being facetious)


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: yogi on October 25, 2012, 04:00:04 AM
What I don't understand from the conspiracy theory angle is that if they did plan it, how did they keep the secret from coming out? Say what you will, governments are not really good about keeping big secrets. And with a false flag operation of this scale surely some documents would have made it to the public.
Conspiracy theorists have no hard evidence, and the fact that there is no hard evidence for their theories speaks a lot by itself.

I remember seeing an interview once with Tony Ben (A famous UK politician). He was ask if he had ever had to keep any big secrets. He laughed and said "Only little ones, the big ones keep themselves due to public incredulity".


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Richy_T on October 25, 2012, 07:10:17 PM
What I don't understand from the conspiracy theory angle is that if they did plan it, how did they keep the secret from coming out? Say what you will, governments are not really good about keeping big secrets. And with a false flag operation of this scale surely some documents would have made it to the public.
Conspiracy theorists have no hard evidence, and the fact that there is no hard evidence for their theories speaks a lot by itself.
The press aren't exactly free any more. Belgium had no elected government for 2 years (and got on just fine without them), surprising how few folks know about that, it didnt make the news for some reason. Compared to that keeping 'crackpot conspiricy theories' out of the news isn't such a big thing and considering how little of (for example) windows source code gets out from microsoft even big organisations can keep secrets.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-7349_3-5158496.html

I'm with Myrkul, things don't add up so I'm keeping an open mind but that doesn't mean that anyone can pour any old crap in. All this conspiracy serves to do is group anyone who does have concerns about what happened in with a bunch of crazies. So maybe the conspiracy theory is part of the conspiracy.

(Yes, I know South Park did that)


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Richy_T on October 25, 2012, 07:14:28 PM
I tend to take an eyewitness description of a cop that was there over the words of those of us that weren't:


I wouldn't take the eyewitness description of a cop that the sky was blue.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: 420 on October 26, 2012, 12:39:08 PM
someone(s) planted explosives in all three buildings.

Deniers, accept it already


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on October 26, 2012, 10:11:28 PM
someone(s) planted explosives in all three buildings.

Deniers, accept it already

Yea, because if you repeat a lie often enough it sounds more truthful. 


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on October 26, 2012, 10:38:32 PM
someone(s) planted explosives in all three buildings.

Deniers, accept it already

Yea, because if you repeat a lie often enough it sounds more truthful. 

Well, that does seem to be the government's strategy. (Not just about this, either...there have been plenty of false flag events in the past.)


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: 420 on October 27, 2012, 05:57:52 AM
someone(s) planted explosives in all three buildings.

Deniers, accept it already

Yea, because if you repeat a lie often enough it sounds more truthful. 

Well, that does seem to be the government's strategy. (Not just about this, either...there have been plenty of false flag events in the past.)

"that attack in benghazi and riots were due to a youtube video"


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Littleshop on October 27, 2012, 05:28:16 PM
someone(s) planted explosives in all three buildings.

Deniers, accept it already

Yea, because if you repeat a lie often enough it sounds more truthful. 

Well, that does seem to be the government's strategy. (Not just about this, either...there have been plenty of false flag events in the past.)

"that attack in benghazi and riots were due to a youtube video"

Except that would be the terrorists using the false flag strategy in this case. 


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on October 27, 2012, 05:32:53 PM
someone(s) planted explosives in all three buildings.

Deniers, accept it already

Yea, because if you repeat a lie often enough it sounds more truthful. 

Well, that does seem to be the government's strategy. (Not just about this, either...there have been plenty of false flag events in the past.)

"that attack in benghazi and riots were due to a youtube video"

Except that would be the terrorists using the false flag strategy in this case. 

"Terrorists"


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: foggyb on October 30, 2012, 04:41:24 AM
someone(s) planted explosives in all three buildings.

Deniers, accept it already

Yea, because if you repeat a lie often enough it sounds more truthful.  

Well, that does seem to be the government's strategy. (Not just about this, either...there have been plenty of false flag events in the past.)

"that attack in benghazi and riots were due to a youtube video"

Except that would be the terrorists using the false flag strategy in this case.  

"Terrorists"

 But they said Al-Qaeda are now our friends.....before that, they said they were our sworn enemies.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: 420 on October 30, 2012, 04:49:26 AM
I don't know alciaduh, never met them; could be nice fellows


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on October 30, 2012, 04:52:03 AM
But you said Al-Qaeda were our friends.....

I don't recall ever saying that. I have stated in the past that it's possible they exist only on paper...


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: foggyb on October 30, 2012, 02:23:28 PM
But you said Al-Qaeda were our friends.....

I don't recall ever saying that. I have stated in the past that it's possible they exist only on paper...

No, you didn't. The gubermint did.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Richy_T on October 30, 2012, 02:24:38 PM
But you said Al-Qaeda were our friends.....

I don't recall ever saying that. I have stated in the past that it's possible they exist only on paper...

I believe the current conspiracy theory is that Al-quaeda transalates as "The Base" and refers to an CIA database of friendly operatives back when we were supporting these chaps (if we still aren't in some convoluted fashion).


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: cedivad on October 30, 2012, 02:51:14 PM
Anyone here knows Massimo Mazzucco?


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: yogi on October 30, 2012, 11:17:34 PM
In George Orwell’s novel 1984,  the country of Oceania has been in a war against Eurasia for years.

Oceania suddenly switches sides, naming Eastasia as its enemy and making its mortal enemy, Eurasia, its new ally.

The government uses propaganda to convince people that, “We’ve always been at war with Eastasia”.  The dumbed-down public doesn’t even notice that they’ve switches sides, and blindly rallies around Eurasia as its perennial friend and ally.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on October 30, 2012, 11:30:32 PM
In George Orwell’s novel 1984,  the country of Oceania has been in a war against Eurasia for years.

Oceania suddenly switches sides, naming Eastasia as its enemy and making its mortal enemy, Eurasia, its new ally.

The government uses propaganda to convince people that, “We’ve always been at war with Eastasia”.  The dumbed-down public doesn’t even notice that they’ve switches sides, and blindly rallies around Eurasia as its perennial friend and ally.

Oh, it's much worse than that. The dumbed-down public doesn't care, and the people within the power structure actively alter their memories (or at least pretend to) to reflect the new "reality".


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Jimmy Chang(y) on October 31, 2012, 10:17:37 AM
Are you guys familiar with Adam Curtis? In particular the Power of Nightmares which paints a view of 9/11 and the war on terror which I haven't seen before. Its in 3 parts, each an hour long but it is well worth a watch. Id be interested to know what you think of it too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGo1DqmfHjY



Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: conspirosphere.tk on October 31, 2012, 10:41:59 AM
talking 'bout nuclear demolitions:
Mini-Neutron Bombs: A Major Piece of the 9/11 Puzzle
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/10/29/mini-neutron-bombs-a-major-piece-of-the-911-puzzle/ (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/10/29/mini-neutron-bombs-a-major-piece-of-the-911-puzzle/)

Look for Dimitri Khalezov too.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: yogi on November 01, 2012, 03:16:46 AM
Are you guys familiar with Adam Curtis? In particular the Power of Nightmares which paints a view of 9/11 and the war on terror which I haven't seen before. Its in 3 parts, each an hour long but it is well worth a watch. Id be interested to know what you think of it too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGo1DqmfHjY



Yeah, I would recommend everyone give Adam Curtis a watch.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: 420 on November 02, 2012, 06:38:26 AM
Are you guys familiar with Adam Curtis? In particular the Power of Nightmares which paints a view of 9/11 and the war on terror which I haven't seen before. Its in 3 parts, each an hour long but it is well worth a watch. Id be interested to know what you think of it too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGo1DqmfHjY



gimme 2btc for me to find 3 extra hours to watch


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Jimmy Chang(y) on November 02, 2012, 11:27:20 AM
Are you guys familiar with Adam Curtis? In particular the Power of Nightmares which paints a view of 9/11 and the war on terror which I haven't seen before. Its in 3 parts, each an hour long but it is well worth a watch. Id be interested to know what you think of it too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGo1DqmfHjY



gimme 2btc for me to find 3 extra hours to watch

Do yourself a favour and watch it  ;)


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: legitnick on November 03, 2012, 04:17:57 PM
* PUTS ON TIN FOIL SUIT *


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: bb113 on November 04, 2012, 02:13:37 AM
Maybe the people running different wings of the federal government each have their own agendas and the system the employees work under leads to ineptitude.

 The cover up wasn't that 9/11 was planned by the US govt, just that it was allowed to happen because the federal government can't actually perform its main duty, which is to prevent these types of attacks, due to insane bureaucratic rules. On top of that, it is very likely that some of the money that funded this also came from well connected US citizens as well. They didn't want or plan 9/11, they just failed to think ahead.

Then like anyone who seeks such power, the leaders used the event to advance their various agendas.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: myrkul on November 04, 2012, 02:31:24 AM
Cock-up before conspiracy, huh?

Which is scarier, that a group of evil, very competent, very powerful people planned and executed a false flag event, or that the people who claim the power to steal your money, kidnap you, and kill you are incompetent, opportunistic fucks?

Honestly, I don't know. Either way, though, it's unnerving.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: legitnick on November 04, 2012, 05:43:15 AM
Everyone in this thread is probably now on another govt watchlist, I wonder how many I'm on now?  :-[


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: yogi on November 04, 2012, 04:22:40 PM
I think the unusually high volume of short selling of AMR and UAL prior to the event is also interesting.


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: 420 on November 08, 2012, 01:24:48 AM
Everyone in this thread is probably now on another govt watchlist, I wonder how many I'm on now?  :-[

420 on a watchlist? never...


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: Dalkore on November 09, 2012, 07:23:38 PM
What I don't understand from the conspiracy theory angle is that if they did plan it, how did they keep the secret from coming out? Say what you will, governments are not really good about keeping big secrets. And with a false flag operation of this scale surely some documents would have made it to the public.
Conspiracy theorists have no hard evidence, and the fact that there is no hard evidence for their theories speaks a lot by itself.

Interesting replies.   I am not going to wade into this debate but this post was worth saying a few words.


In general, any conspiracies start out as convert actions.   The more people that know about any covert action, increasingly the covert aspect of it becomes compromised (ie: more likely for something to leak).  

If we are to look at this scenario that has such large deviations of consensus, here is what I would say about it if I was tasked with making such a dramatic end happen.    You would use a very small team,  you would only do as little action as needed to get the desired result.  Taking the major charge that WTC's were done by some sort of controlled aspect,  it would need to be installed covertly, maybe using some sort of maintenance worker cover.   This would likely be done in conjunction with a real attack, ie:  Hijacker already planned to do this but you knew that there plan would not be enough to really solidify public opinion for a new policy change.  

You let the real attack happen and then you add your special effects (ie: demo the buildings) to totally and completely galvanize public opinion.  

Now the important charge is, why no whistle-blowers?    You liquidate them all, ALL.   Now they can not come forward.  The senior level officials that coordinated, well they know what happens if they talk, so you won't get anything there.   You have to remember that "IF" this did happen other than as a random terrorist event, they are TRUE BELIEVERS, so they BELIEVE what they did was in the "national interest" so there conscience is clear and they would not say anything.

If you look at what were the most important actions that needed to happen to make this outcome, there are only a few items that a relatively small team could have done to do accomplish said task.  


Regardless, I am too far from any of the information needed to make a judgement on if this was a random act or a planned covert act.   I watched it that morning and it emotionally hurt me in ways I still most likely do not understand.   I love America and even thinking about someone coming to the point that an act like this was in the national interest just makes me drop my head and frown.

There are many valid question that seem to keep coming up from both sides but instead of having a dialogue, both sides would rather insult and ridicule each other, so you feel better about this horrific act.    That makes me sad, we live in an America with two different teams and both sides have NO RESPECT for each other.  You can't have a meaningful discussion under those term.  

Ok carry on.


.02 BTC


Title: Re: 9/11 is the Litmus Test
Post by: conspirosphere.tk on November 09, 2012, 08:41:32 PM
what shocked me most in all this has been the treason by the "intellectuals", from Chomsky onward, and generally the left even of the extreme kind, who have been defending the official myth up to now. About this I still lack an explanation different from the one that they are all either accomplices or fearful. From controlled demolitions to controlled opposition.