Bitcoin Forum

Like many of you, I hold a substantial number of Bitcoins. I am interested in seeing the value of those coins go up vs. the USD so that I can sell my coins for USD in future. For me, there's no other reason to have them.

I actually think that the more able members of our society have a duty to help the weaker members, so I don't have any weird libertarian fantasies. I'm just in it for the money. The actual, folding, bank account, Visa card money.

So how can we push the price of Bitcoin up so that we can sell our coins for more? As everyone knows, in order to increase prices we need to spike demand. So why would anyone want a Bitcoin?

When Silk Road became popular last year, everyone saw how it pushed up the price of Bitcoin. I haven't actually seen many people on this forum acknowledge the fact that Silk Road is driving the Bitcoin economy. There's simply not much else to buy with Bitcoins, and unless you are a currency speculator or a Bitcoin devotee there is no other reason to turn your government backed cash into Bitcoins.

I sold a lot of coins last summer, and I made over $100,000 clear profit from an initial $1000 investment, and that was from only about half of the coins I bought for that $1000. I still have the rest. I am sure a lot of you cashed out too, for even bigger profits.

I am sure that the increase in price that I profited so much from is down, mostly, to demand spurred on by Silk Road.

There is only one reason for a normal person to want a Bitcoin - to break rules, laws, and regulations. This is the future of Bitcoin, this is what will drive the price up, and I think this is what we should all be focusing on.

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts and ideas about this. I think that gambling in the USA is an untapped market but there may be other laws that we can help people break with Bitcoin too.

One time note: We simply want to make the weak stronger; not dependent on the strong.

Anyways, illicit activities are the future.

I'd rather spend my bitcoins than change it to EUR. I only buy EUR and USD so I can get more bitcoins when the price fluctuate.

It does have the potential to be a leapfrog technology in places which lack a financial infrastructure but nobody's going to get rich off that.  I find it utterly ironic that what users have been demanding are the same kind of dodgy financial products which lead to real world economic problems.  Many of them will never be able to generate wealth in conventional financial markets, so they try to create those same type of markets here - with much the same result.

That is a bold assumption. It's like saying the only reason to enrich uranium is to build nuclear weapons.
Bitcoin has no intrinsic purpose - just properties. It's up to the people to use it for different things.

I think it's wrong to promote illegal activities to increase the value of bitcoin. The only exception is when the illegal is ethically pleasing.

Thus I am fixing this for you:

From positive side of view, a pension fund will be interested in BTC, since it will hedge the risk of high inflation rate that the current monetary policy bring, and do not put any profit pressure on government bonds. Today's pension fund have big difficulties since the return of government bonds has fall below the inflation rate, and there is high risk for government default for those high return bonds of those debt laiden country

Of course they can also hedge that risk by buying commodities and golds, but these products also have an unstable demand, BTC is much more convenient to work with

If money flow in, the price will rise, if there is a trend that all the pension funds allocate part of their portfolio into BTC, the BTC will have a constant demand and the price will rise

This is true, but what if the current rules, laws and regulations could not help people to get a better life any more? BTC will shine when there is a crisis for the current rules, laws and regulations, and it is already happening

It took JAPAN 2 decades to get out of the recession after their housing bubble, US people just started to enter this long and dark tunnel, and BTC definitely shed some light in this darkness

I hope you can sell them before the dollar goes bust.



I would adjust that a little bit: ↓↓




https://i.imgur.com/o7sw7.jpg

anyone who wants dollars in this environment is not paying a great deal of attention

I find Bitcoin useful for legal marketing strategies, although not very far reaching at this point.

I am working on a site that should increase Bitcoin popularity, the back end is still in development and hasn't reached beta, I need some alternative income so I don't have to waste my efforts on a day job just to get by.

Rare to see commons sense in the bitcoin forums. Support.

A growing number of goldbugs are parting with their metal for bitcoins. That says it all.

It also wrecks the rest of your not well thought out argument.

Or they're Bruce Wagoner.

You're suggesting only terrorists & criminals use bitcoin?

What a thing to say.   ???

There are plenty of legit reasons to support and use bitcoins.

1.  Economic stability.  Bitcoins are more stable than currency printed by central banks.

2.  Low transfer costs.  

3.  Independence from banks, credit cards and others who have near to a monopoly on money exchanges.

4.  Protection from inflation.

.

Sounds like what a terrorist would say.

↑ Sounds like something someones mom would say.

.

*cough* There are hundreds of merchants accepting Bitcoin. Hundreds are listed on the wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade). There are more than a thousand (http://www.economist.com/node/21563752) merchants alone using Bitpay. There is so much to buy in bitcoins!

That's just nonsense and if you consider yourself a normal person then you even brought a counterexample in your own post.

There's lots of reasons for "normal", law-abiding persons to use Bitcoin: some are in it purely for profit (like yourself); many are fed up by Paypal's fees and chargebacks so they look for alternatives; others use it as a marketing tool because you can get easy press if you say you accept Bitcoin; some have used it to build viable businesses (e.g. BitPay). Of course, there's also all the normal people who simply want to hedge against inflation and therefore buy some gold, silver and Bitcoins - what's wrong with that?

Finally there's all those tech people who are in it for the cool technology and the unique possibilities it offers - to actually program money! But I won't argue with you whether geeks count are normal people ;)

This is true but people how many of these merchants don't accept other payment methods? Not many. The real value in Bitcoin is that it's a free money, not as in free beer, to paraphrase free software. So it represents a super-set of what you can buy with state currencies. Sure, much of that is illegal stuff. I think people will slowly wake up and experiment with what free money can buy and one of the potentially most important is "free speech", "free thought" products, ie. uncensored trade, unregulated knowledge.

I don't think this has been barely explored. I imagine a day when musicians or artists commonly have Tor hidden services and accept bitcoin for support.

+1

OP voices what (my estimate) 90% of bitcoin holders is thinking.

I'm interested in selling off my precious BTC for a fiat profit for as long as I need to use fiat on a regular basis. However, I also want to do something interesting and productive involving Bitcoin besides mining or speculating. I just have yet quite to figure out what that niche is, but I'm gonna try and work on it.

I've been using Bitcoin as a currency since the autumn of 2010.  So far I haven't done anything illegal.  I report my coins and my earnings to th tax authorities, who have no idea what it is.  So far it is untaxed, but I have done everything right.  Nothing I have bought or sold has been illegal.  I use Bitcoin because it is usually simpler and faster and cheaper and more secure than all other ways of international money transfer.  That is a lot of pros and no cons.

In my opinion the future is legal.  I sell coins every day to people who use the coins to pay for services or as a store of value / investment.  Nothing of this is illegal.  And the value will of course drop to the bottom if Bitcoin is deemed illegal.  Both I and most other people will get rid of all we have as soon as possible, and it is going to be hard to do it in a legal way.

I still think the cryptocoin ecosystem needs more than just bitcoins.

Bitcoins keep going up in value and can reasonably be expected to do so for quite some time.

We need things just as easy to use, compatible in their use, in short, altcoins, that do not go up in value as fast.

The prejudice against altcoins has been very destructive, I think.

Basically store of value and transmission of value are two different functions, and it is very useful to be able to use two different coins for these functions so you can stash your fast-appreciating bitcoins away in a margin aka collateral aka leverage account and borrow, using your bitcoins as collateral, something that appreciates much slower or not at all.

Obviously the fact that fiat tends to depreciate in value makes it tempting as the asset to borrow, but it lacks the ease of use cryptocoin users are accustomed to. Thus various altcoins are often much more convenient a choice as the asset to borrow.

From some reading I have been doing it seems possible that what "should happen" is the interest rates should adjust to prevent any one currency coming out ahead of any other as "the best one to borrow" but if in fact arbitrage or something is going to get to that point eventually it does not seem to have done so yet as some nice profits are being made even by the simple strategy of borrowing altcoins with which to buy more bitcoins to use as collateral to borrow more altcoins with which to buy more bitcoins, etcetera.

I do not agree that the future of bitcoin is illegal, as was already pointed out just one of the payment processors supporting bitcoin has over a thousand merchants accepting bitcoin, it seems unlikely they are all illegal businesses.

I do think though that the future is a diverse ecosystem of cryptocurrencies because there do seem to be advantages to diversity.

-MarkM-

Thx for very useful post. U r the first person in my ignore list who is included not due to personal insults.

I think thats where a coin like the proposed freicoin comes in.

While I'm no lover of the State and the taxman, I do respect and admire your honesty.


I don't think I can disagree with that.


I'm not convinced that's true. After all, prohibition has never made illicit drugs cheap, quite the opposite!

The "inflatacoins", DeVCoin and GRouPcoin, might work too. So far I have mostly seen DeVCoin used for the purpose and it has been working well so far.

(Both of them keep minting the same number of coins per block "forever".)

-MarkM-

I think it would have the opposite approach. Recall that Bitcoin began to go through the roof last year when Chuck Schumer started screeching about them.

Any attention to Bitcoin by banks or governments will increase their value. People may be sheep, but sheep aren't utterly stupid.

DId gold crash down in value in the U.S. when the government confiscated it?

-MarkM-

In fact, it went soo bad with gold that foreign countries redeemed their dollars en masse for this worthless piece of metal in the sixties, ultimately forcing Nixon to close the Gold window. The land of the free has been 'not so free' a lot longer (even going back so far as Lincoln).

Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate everyone who made an intelligent point joining the debate, whether we agree or not. I'm pleased to see that many people do agree with me. Here are some words for those who dont:


Spend them on what? There's nothing other than drugs to spend them on.  If you want to buy literally anything else (and drugs too), you'll find EUR and USD absolutely perfect for your needs.



Hahaha. I am good with dollars, thanks. You can buy things with dollars, plus invest them in legitimate things. You can't buy anything with Bitcoin, and 90% of Bitcoin investments are a scam.


I'm suggesting that only those who wish to break a law, rule or regulation have a good reason to use bitcoin.

Also, with regards to your points.

1. What utter nonsense. The dollar has been pretty steady against the gbp for 2 years now. Bitcoin has been up and down like  a yo-yo. It's the least stable currency  in the world.

2. It's only low until all the coins are mined.

3. There are no monopolies with banks and credit cards. I agree that Paypal has a ridiculous monopoly but there's no need for another currency to stop them, just a better system.

4. See point 1.


Why the fuck would someone go to the hassle of converting USD into Bitcoin when they could go on amazon and buy any of that instantly with their credit card?


This is the only decent counterargument I've seen. However the fact remains that you can't eat gold, silver or Bitcoins. If you want food or to pay your mortgage/rent, you still need to turn it into government backed currency. I also think the price fluctuates way too much to make it useful for this purpose, but I guess as a wildcard hedge in a basket of commodities it kinda makes sense. Kinda. But I honestly don't think many people are interested in doing that. Most people see inflation as a fact of life, not something to wage a life long battle against. That might be unwise but it is the prevailing attitude.


Simpler? Than going to a bank and doing an IBAN transfer? Man, cheaper maybe but not simpler. Getting money in and out of Bitcoin is an extreme hassle for most people. I don't think, for most people, it's a substantially better way to transfer money internationally. It's pretty slow, there is a hassle getting money in and out the system, and transfers won't be free forever.

Plus, for people to use Bitcoin to transfer money, they need to be aware of it, and they need to make a special effort to use it. Why would anyone spend money in order to market the system like that? They would need a reason, and that means exchange fees.

As to your 2nd point, if Bitcoin is made illegal somewhere then the value will soar. And of course people will be able to use it legally in another country.

Again, I concur with most of your arguments.

However, I disagree with this.

Let's assume bitcoin is illegal in the US, but legal in other countries. Legal exchanges exist in these countries.
Could you explain why you think illegality in the US would increase the world price of bitcoin?

It could become more profitable to export/sell bitcoins to people in the US. This would be akin to the aggressive enforcement actions of the DEA raising the market price of drugs. Yes, the drugs in question are illegal just about anywhere, but not all countries enforce the drug laws as harshly as the US (and of course there are a few, e.g. Singapore, that are a lot more harsh than the US!).

Publicity and the lure of the illicit.

Porn and internet services you want to contract privately are also a good niche right now.

As for the conclusion illegal->price raise, there is no solid evidence to back it up, just some wild speculation.

Read this I had a great idea (typically for me anyways), now I have changed cash into btc using various exchanges and methods and that's ok though some ways have high fees. I thought of another way and to convert my savings into btc and that is to open online shop taking payments in BTC. I would buy my stock using the fiat and my business would poop out BTC. So all you btc millionaires can start giving me your btc ok? The future of bitcoin isn't illegal, the future is ME, muahha haha ha  8)

Troll thread attracts trolls, film at 11.

What is illegal? As people start distrusting govt-backed "money" they will figure out that govt-backed "laws" are no different. They are just arbitrary abstractions imposed on them against their will. Or do you suggest that governments these days have highest approval ratings in history? No, they don't.

The future of Bitcoin is that govt in its current form will be dimmed illegal!
You're dealing with Super Nova explosion here in slow-mo, there is nothing you can do about it other than observe its magnificence, and don't get too close or you'll get burned.

Hi Charlie, I'm trying to understand your first point more clearly, in one paragraph you post about the more able members helping the weaker members, but following that you are stating a clear desire to push the price up to sell for more for personal profit. (almost sounds like a pump-and-dump):




I'm with MarkM on this one. I think you need to clearly understand that different individuals perceive value differently. I highly value a bitcoin over a USD as the value of any usd for the near future will drop due to inflation (quantitative easing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing#QE1.2C_QE2.2C_and_QE3)). As you've already experienced Charlie, the value of bitcoin over since its inception has only gone up... to your benefit!

Also, on your view that the future is illegal. I disagree. The reason? Its technologically useful. And $110+ million of market capitalisation backs up a perception that it is something with real world value.




To give my view a bit more depth, I'll use the analogy above. The US, after creating cryptography saw a huge threat in homeland security if it was used outside of its country by an enemy. They subsequently realised after the technology went mainstream that they could not stop growing consumer demand. If bitcoin is deemed illegal in the US, demand will drop but ultimately it will continue from the rest of the world.

When global adoption reaches a critical mass, if the US isn't in, then it will be at a disadvantage.

Prohibition -> reduction in supply (supply curve shifted leftward) -> higher market price

Econ 101!

Supply is fixed. You only need to concern yourself with demand. Publicity is possible, but whether this boosts or reduces demand is not obvious.

There is a bit of a catch 22 when attracting illegal dealings to bitcoin. This catch 22 exists on multiple levels. The highest level being that even the medium sized players would need a lot more value to the bitcoin to be interested in participating. Currently, it's like taking micro payments to these types. I think there is a total value of about 150 million dollars? This would need to be in the billions to have enough to go around to satisfy all the players who think 10 million dollars is an average take.

Here are some suggestions for the illegal side.

Getting Kim DotCom on board with bitcoin will probably drive the price up more than The dread pirate roberts has.
While not really illegal, the porn industry probably hates chargebacks. They could offer lower rates to people who pay in bitcoin.
Money Laundering.
Rainy day legal defense funds.
Political bribes.
Credit card theft, turn the stolen funds into bitcoin through forexes that pop up and disappear.
A bitcoin fencing operation... buy stolen goods for bitcoin. Operates like a silk road for stolen televisions.
a bitcoin based cash for gold for stolen jewelry. (cue south park audio byte)
Identity theft. Buy a new identity with bitcoins.
bets for video based blood sports like cock fighting and dog fighting.


Shit I could do this all day. There is a zillion things that are illegal that could benefit from bitcoin... but all of this shit is moot - it will take nearly a full generation before the majority of the population has the computer skills required to participate in the bitcoin process. The drug buyers are somewhat used to a certain level of scammery and taxation... They get taxed when they buy their drug coins on eBay and they get taxed for the privilege of buying their drugs in a safer online environment. There aren't many dinosaurs like me who have the computer skills to even set up tor.

Had to quote it, awesome post is awesome...  :)

:-p

we are witnessing the end of the relevance of the nation state in real time, take notes kids, its fascinating stuff.

Bitcoin's consequences could be mind boggling.

I'm not sure why you think this is a troll thread. Because I hold opinions that are different to the majority of people here? Tough shit man. If you want Bitcoin to be a currency to be widely adopted, you're going to have to accept that it's not a social club for people who all think the same. I'm happy to respect your opinions if you want to chime in. To be honest I think you are the one trolling, because you are doing nothing to contribute to the discussion. Feel free to contribute intelligently and prove me wrong.

That goes for the other guy who posted just to accuse myself and others of being trolls too.

I think this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77151.0;all


Will bring worldwide publicity to BTC if it is done correctly.

Hi. I was talking about society as a whole. The point that I was trying to make is that I don't have a political agenda for using Bitcoin. I don't really see trying to get the price up as anyway similar to a pump and dump.

Wild speculation passed as fact 101.

The exact effects in supply and demand are extremely unpredictable.

Did you know you can buy gold directly with bitcoin? (https://bitcoin.org.uk/forums/topic/384-new-bitcoin-for-gold-exchange)





Because Bitcoin is an investment, one bitcoin will probably continue to buy more Amazon stuff because of that. Have you heard of the Gartner Hype Cycle (http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2011/11/bitcoin.html)?








plouf // Jun 29, 2011 at 2:25 pm

I paid my rent in bitcoins today.
 (http://starburst.hackerfriendly.com/?p=1530)


This is the information era.

Bold my emphasis. A very large proportion of the world's population do not have a FICO score let alone a good one, credit cards or even a bank account. They are in fact the world's poor, and for them Bitcoin may well be the only alternative to cash or paying usurious service charges. So unless one criminalizes poverty there is a huge legal market for Bitcoin.

By the way online purchase is a horrible model for illegal drugs, particularly the highly addictive ones. How many heroin addicts are going to wait two weeks to get their fix in the mail? No they will buy from the local dealer for cash and go into the nearest dark alley to shoot up. Ditto for crack meth etc.

I'd add gain control of their own wealth to that list.  With infinite QE happening as we speak, keeping cash around is folly.  Not everyone involved in bitcoin is trying to circumvent laws and regulations, in the same way that not all people who hoard gold are trying to do so. 

Hahaha. You've misunderstood me. The Ford comment is a criticism of a Chevy. I'm not criticizing Bitcoin, quite the opposite. I am sorry you thought my comment was a derogatory one about something you feel strongly about. It wasn't. It was pointing out a strength, not a weakness. It's a shame you don't see it that way.


I don't think anyone who is currently involved in Bitcoins is normal by definition. It is a very, very niche thing that most people are completely unaware of. To even be aware of Bitcoins is unusual.

I'm not under the misapprehension that my Bitcoin profits are a reflection of any talent. I took a gamble with a thousand bucks and got very lucky indeed. The same with future profits.

I also don't really see hoarding Bitcoins in the hope of them raising in value as a "use"

I paid every penny I owed in taxes as I do with all the money I earn on investments, I have no idea why you are even floating the possibility that I might not have.


I said those things because I believe them, not to inflame your sensibilities. I don't have any interest or motive for getting you all riled up, and to be honest I'm surprised things have gone that way.


What exactly do you use them for?


I'm not quite at the level of involvement to call myself a Bitcoin enthusiast myself, but I do have nothing but good things to say about them. I'm sorry that you are so pissed off by me stating that the vast majority of Bitcoin investment vehicles have turned out to be scams, and that there isn't anything to buy with them (other than drugs) that couldn't be bought more simply, with less risk of fraud and more easily with whatever the local currency is. If you find that inflammatory, it is a shame, because to me those are incontrovertible facts and putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "TROLL" isn't going to change that. For me a discussion takes place around the facts, not in denial of them.

Fiat money is designed to fail when not pegged to the value of something else. The value of the dollar was separated from the gold standard in 1971. How long does it have?


Bitcoin has value in itself (http://paulbohm.com/articles/bitcoins-value-is-decentralization). 

Another good use was pointed out in the excellent TEDx talk (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115555.0):
the ultra poor -- those who have no means of establishing financial arrangements with banks and have no safe place to store their money -- could use Bitcoin not only as a bank but also as a global payment system. 

No doubt the cash like aspects of Bitcoin do encourage cash like use, especially in the same illegal ways cash is used; but to fail to see the global, society changing differences Bitcoin has from cash I think is short sighted.  Bitcoin is a bit more than drugs, porn, and guns.

If Bitcoin loses his decentralization it still will be valuable.

What, technically, can be done to centralize Bitcoin? I mean, I can see how one could centralize the addition of new features, but, you can undo what's been done.  Bitcoin is Bitcoin...it's not like it can just suddenly become this completely non-anonymous, heavily fee based network via a central authority...everyone running the software would have to agree...

This paragraph is baffling. My big profit came from coins I sold last summer. I didn't buy them last summer. At no point did I say that I bought them last summer. I did indeed buy into BTC when the price was a fraction of a dollar.

As for the rest, I thought your post was very well written, if slightly zealous, but I don't think anything you have said has any impact on my argument. You speak in rousing terms about young intelligent people getting together to start Bitcoin businesses. Where are they? Where are the successful Bitcoin businesses that aren't exchanges or money movers of some kind? The fact that the only legitimate successful businesses are in the business of moving Bitcoins from national currencies and back merely serves to underline the fundamentally auxiliary nature of Bitcoin.


Someone else mentioned this type of thing earlier and I wanted to comment. Very cool thinking and it appeals to me a lot. Is anyone actually trying to put this into action?

The number of coins in existence is fixed. But that doesn't mean that the supply is fixed. Supply refers to the amount of coins that sellers are willing to part with at a given price.  If it were illegal to transact with or sell bitcoins, I don't see many current holders simply deleting their wallets.  But they might be less willing to sell their coins if doing so exposed them to the risk of criminal sanctions.  So presumably the supply curve would be shifted to the right.  On the other hand, the demand curve would presumably shift to the left.  So the ultimate effect on price is not immediately obvious.  My guess is that the effect on demand would be greater than the effect on supply so I'd expect a price drop.  That's the opposite of what you see with the prohibition of illicit drugs where the effects on supply dominate the effects on demand.  The prohibition of illicit drugs does relatively little to deter users, but it does make sellers demand a fairly substantial risk premium.

The legitimacy boost of "This is a thing that worries us" is global and any actual cracking down would be local. We'll never really know the exact effect even if it happens because it will probably happen in response to a period of rapid increase in interest.

It is already seen by many as a way to get around laws, so it might not be hurt much by a law. Though you do lose the plausible deniability that you could be doing something legal with it if just owning it is illegal.

Not that I'm aware of...I mean, not directly.  A cheap Ellet would go a long way :)

Haha, I wasn't trying to convince you, but I think it's quite rude to call me a liar considering you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Luckily I don't care what you think.

I had a look at that list and I didn't see anything worth a fuck that either isn't an exchange or doesn't deal mainly in cash with BTC transactions offered as a little thing on the side. If I am missing something feel free to point it out.

A currency can't survive on speculation alone, at some point you have to exchange it for goods or services.

You're correct in reminding the OP about Bitcoin's function as a store of value, but bear in mind, to the OP's point, that in many countries on this planet, gaining control of one's own wealth is actually illegal.  Prohibitions against metals ownership, currency exchanges, and currency transport exist in most countries in varying degrees, and are specifically designed to disable people's ability to preserve and move their wealth.  And so, to the extent that Bitcoin is used to protect savings (which I agree with you, it is), it's potentially yet another bullet on the OP's "illegal uses" list, as opposed to the "legal uses" list.   Most countries (including USA in 1933) have, at least once, made wealth preservation strategies illegal, and will likely do so again as the worldwide ponzi economy continues to deteriorate.

Insofar I am aware, mobile payments in those areas is developing (e.g., payment by SMS).

In my opinion, we need some more years for the back lands to sufficiently upgrade on mobile networking (internet) and devices (smartphones) before we may expect BTC to lift off in those areas of the world. This element of time can hardly be considered as a blockade for BTC, because the more spread out the use of BTC is at that time, the better it will gain traction in less developed areas of the world.

In terms of mobile payments, we could use progress on speedy payment confirmation and a mobile BTC client that is lightweight and data-thin. I am yet to make/receive my first mobile Android BTC payment....  :'(

Those are really great points, thanks!

And people are exchanging bitcoins for goods and services.  But right now many of them are going through the intermediary of fiat.  I've argued that Bitcoin is currently operating a lot like gold, i.e. a store of value that few people use as a direct medium of exchange.  But bitcoins have tremendous potential to be an absolutely amazing direct medium of exchange.  It's just that becoming a direct medium of exchange (as opposed to a store of value) relies much more heavily on network effects. So it will take longer.  But I have no doubt that we'll get there. I'd say Bitcoin is doing pretty well for a kid who hasn't even celebrated his fourth birthday.

Prohibition has made illicit drugs more scarce.  Supply goes down.  The addicts aren't affected much, so demand stays up.  When supply goes down and demand stays up, the price goes up.  This is very basic economics.

Bitcoins however are produced in the same amounts no matter the legality.  Making them illegal just means fewer people will want them, which makes demand go down when the supply stays exactly the same.  If Bitcoin were made illegal tomorrow, all legal bitcoins will go on the market today.  And you can see how this thread alone makes the market nervous.  ;)

The future of bitcoin is bright, Charlie. Get over it.

[/quote]

http://coinabul.com/ (http://coinabul.com/)
Gold and silver != drugs....

I know gold and silver aren't as valuable or as durable as your "Visa money", but for those people that lack your faith in credit-based currency instruments, there's a rising list of metal traders:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Precious_.26_Base_Metals.2FCoins

When PM dealers are trading their stash for a currency, it's probably going to stick around for a awhile.

good point...their inventory is their hedge...

Actually this is not true, Severian. Goldbugs are people that have very strong common sense compared to paperbugs or cryptobugs.

The biggest goldbug in my town recently agreed to take bitcoins from me. I'd spent months trying to get him to take a look at Bitcoin, to no avail. It took a well-heeled couple coming into his store last week and bringing Bitcoin up to make him look at it. He's now willing to trade bitcoins. He's as conservative and common-sense as they go, having been in biz since the 70's.

So yes, it's a growing list.

this argument is ridiculously difficult to prove true or false...anyone up for a scientific survey of goldbugs?

Yes, simpler.  I can get loaded up with coins with one simple IBAN transfer, and use the coins for many smaller purchases.   Getting money in to Bitcoin is not any more difficult than one IBAN transfer.  And I make it even simpler for people in my country by offering coins at a low rate for domestic bank transfer.  This enables people who don't know how to do international money transfers to get their coins in a very simple way and very quickly.  Buying coins from me, asking me to pay directly to the address they want to pay to, is always faster than any kind of international money transfer through a bank.  Credit card may be faster, but not as secure.  And not everyone want to pay everything with a credit card for various valid reasons.
Slow?  Compared to banks?  Have you ever done an international money transfer?  It takes 4 to 5 days to transfer money to Japan from here.  A Bitcoin transaction has 6 confirmations in an hour by average.  And there is no risk of fraud.  Nobody can take the coins back when they are sent.
A lot of people do.  I've sold bitcoins to more than 400 people.  IRC and e-mail. 
I proved the opposite in simple economic terms in another posting.  Demand will go down.  Supply stays exactly the same.

Other factors which will also contribute to the fall if Bitcoin is made illegal.  Development will stop.  A lot of good services will stop.  Exchanges will shut down.  People with a lot of coins will obviously try to sell before the exchanges close their doors.

It's a growing list of people trying to profit from bitcoin, Severian. People that purchase bitcoins instead of gold believe that bitcoin will appreciate faster to fiat money than gold. That doesn't mean they will ditch their gold and silver for bitcoins!

It doesn't matter what they do with the bitcoins after they get them. The point is, a growing list of PM dealers are trading their metal for bitcoins. They see it as a viable trading option.

That speaks volumes about the longterm viability of the currency. How many PM dealers are trading their metal for Linden dollars or whatever they call EVE money?

Trading means today they'll buy bitcoins and sell gold, and tomorrow they'll buy gold and sell bitcoins. This is just a profit opportunity and is different to "parting with their metal for bitcoins".

Newsflash: Profit motive causes trade. I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. Or why.

This is pure fantasy.  Laws aren't passed in a day.  If it looks like Bitcoin will become illegal in an important country, the large holders will sell at once.  Get their money out while it is possible without criminalizing themselves.  I will.  No doubt about that.  And I'll try to be the first to sell, because the value will soon fall lower than most people here can remember.

Eh?  Yes, it does.  Not a little, it does a lot to deter users.  It has a large impact.  Drunk drivers was a problem as well before driving while drunk was criminalized.

So you think the future of bitcoin is in taking risk premium for selling them?  Why not just use a legal payment method, and drop the risk premium?

Now I'm not sure what did you mean by saying:

It's a simple declarative statement backed up by a mere glance at material reality.

So... what reality is more material: paperbugs, cryptobugs, or goldbugs?

I have your answer: yes.

Yeah, that's certainly possible.  But for every sale, there's a buyer.  And those new buyers will become the potential sellers who will determine the supply of bitcoins going forward.


Well, I suppose it deters some people.  *cough, cough*  But my larger point was that the deterrent effect of prohibition is much MORE pronounced on the supply side.  

No, I think the future of Bitcoin is to become the world's dominant currency.  Why not use legal fiat instead? Because it's being rapidly debased, because it's a terrible store of value, because it makes it difficult for you to preserve your financial privacy, because online payments require excessive fees, because your accounts can be frozen at the whim of a tyrannical government, because you're helping to prop up a corrupt and unsustainable system, etc.  

Holy shit, I was trying to kill that damn bug. good job.

I fell for it too!

Goldbugs obviously, and a growing number are taking a position in Bitcoin.

Why is this hard for some to accept?

I don't think it's an issue of acceptance...it's an issue of fact vs. opinion...

They are multiplying ‼
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2690;type=avatar
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2690;type=avatarhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2690;type=avatar
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2690;type=avatarhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2690;type=avatarhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2690;type=avatar

When opinion goes against fact, that's an acceptance issue.  ;)

typically one couples data with claims of fact...
(a link to a wiki site is not my idea of high quality data, just sayin...)

That's what we have now. That list has been steadily growing for the past year.

Accept it or not.

This is utter bullshit. I bought into Bitcoin with a very small amount of money, by the time I finished buying I was up to $1000, still a small amount of money. I dunno if you live in your parent's basement or what, but for grown ups $1000 isn't usually that much.

The investment became worth a comparatively large amount of money, not because I appreciated the concept that its best use is for illegal activity, but because I got really lucky.

I'm not preaching anything, I'm not talking about the "best destiny" of Bitcoin.

You've just pulled all that out of your ass.

I think that you might be a little dense. You haven't debated me at all, you've just called me a liar about a fact I mentioned in the OP which has no consequence to the debate, and accused me of being a troll. Here's a newsflash for you: sometimes people have contrary opinions to the ones that you have. Sometimes they even say them out loud. I am sorry you can't deal with that and you take it as a personal affront, and an insult to everything that you hold dear. Just because you are a baby doesn't make me a troll.

I'm also sorry you can't accept the fact that I made some cash with Bitcoins. I didn't mention it to boast, I just mentioned it to say that I have had some good results with Bitcoins, I am on the side of Bitcoins, and I still have some skin in the game. Ironically it was to stop people from thinking that I was trying to attack Bitcoin. To be honest I thought it would be a miniscule amount compared to what most people here have probably made, but from your jealous attacks I guess not.

You made a lot of bullshit claims, told me to do my research about them when I questioned them, I did my research and came back to tell you that I couldn't find a scrap of truth in the bullshit you are spewing, and yet again I get a personal attack. I think I can reasonably walk away thinking you are probably an idiot.

Gentlemen, whatever the particular destiny of bitcoin is we don't know. But I predict for each destiny there will be a cryptocurrency to fullfill the need. The cat is out of the bag, let's embrace it.

A strong regulation of bitcoin doesn't mean it's growth potential goes down - actually it's likely to be the opposite. In any event, the two key properties of bitcoin will always persist as long the majority of the hashing power is not in the hands of a large entity: 1) fixed money supply 2) fungibility

However, what we may lose on the way is anonymity, which is a problem for illegal businesses. I suspect that we will see other cryptocurrencies or services allowing the conversion of non-anonymous to anonymous money. If the OP feels that should be something worth pursuing I propose he should invest a fraction of that $100,000 accordingly.

As far as the cash-out strategy of the OP goes, I am pleased to hear that his early risk taking got rewarded and he can enjoy his lucky position (chance to be a super-early adopter). I hope we'll all be in the same position a few years from now.

Thanks. It's currently tied up as part of a rental property of mine. I'll enjoy it even more when I cash out the 5000 or so coins I still hold, hopefully for a fair bit more than $100k. :)

I can accept that. But remember, some are already paying rent with it -directly.

So I hear people can predict the future now.. sweeeet mang.

Totally Agree !!!

That's why I want Bitcoins !!!!

there is too many endoctrined, not enought awaken !

WAKE UP !  Stop taking what's told a truth, think and challenge, then you'll see the real truth !

The supply of Bitcoin is fixed.  Illegal coins are going to be harder to get and to sell, because you won't find any traders, but also less interesting to most people, and not used due to legal alternatives.  People don't walk around with illegal substances to pay for illegal substances.  They pay with something legal.  Supply is not only fixed, bitcoins will also not be used.  Because bitcoins will be hard to buy, and you don't want to get caught with something illegal if you can avoid it.  The value of the coins will go down, because you don't want to sit on a fortune in illegal money.  You will want to exchange the coins for legal tender as soon as possible.  The coins will no longer be useful as a store of value.

For illegal activity today, I think Bitcoin is comparable to cash.  A substantial amount of cash transactions involve illegal activity of some sort.  Most do not.  If cash is outlawed, cash will become worthless.

No. Bitcoin is a tool. You can outlaw a certain usage of this tool not the tool itself! You can not outlaw knifes just because they can be used by criminals!

Money in the form of cash is money not based on debt! If you remove cash you setup a monetary system that is entirely based on debt. That means every member of such a society must be indebted first if they want to be part of this society and use such money. And then, who would be the master creditor? How debtors would control their creditors? They can't. This is where capitalism transforms to neofeudalism and this is exactly what you'll do if you outlaw cash!

I'm using "supply" in the economic sense.  It's an upward sloping curve that tells you how many sellers you'll find at a particular price.  Again, if bitcoins are declared illegal, they're still going to be somewhere after that law passes. And I don't think those holders are going to be particularly anxious to sell them.  (After all, doing so will be illegal.) You don't have to "walk around with" bitcoins. If you use a brain-wallet, you don't have to worry about being discovered in possession of illegal bitcoins.  We're basically talking about thought-crime at that point.  But the holders might be somewhat hesitant to sell or transact with them.  So again, I think that shifts the supply curve to the right. Of course, as you point out, the announcement of the law might have first shifted the supply curve to the left if people scramble to unload their coins while it's still legal to do so. And sure, being declared illegal might also shift the demand curve to the left. But as someone else pointed out, the crackdown would be local (it's very unlikely that ALL jurisdictions pass laws at the same time) while the legitimacy boost of "this is something that worries us" would be global.  So I don't think it would destroy Bitcoin as a store of value any more than Executive Order 6102 destroyed gold as as store of value. 


Bitcoin is the opposite of fiat cash.  Cash depends on an artificial scarcity protected by government violence.  Cash is just not very good money.  Its primary competitive advantage comes from state authority.  Take that advantage away and of course it becomes worthless.  But that wouldn't happen with good money, e.g. gold or Bitcoin.

It would be awesome if these threads had a garbage disposal button. If garbage disposal is upvoted enough times, then everyone who posted in the thread would be banned from the forum.

Yes, you can.  And it is done.  Many kinds of knives are outlawed in a lot of countries.  You can outlaw a tool which has certain properties.  E.g. certain kinds of knives, weapons or tools.  Exchanging western currencies used to be forbidden east of the Iron Curtain.  In my country balisong knives, switchblade knives and stilettos are forbidden.  Usefulness as a tool is not enough.

I agree it will be hard to forbid Bitcoin, and I can't understand why most of the people posting in this thread wants it to be forbidden.
No.  Reserve banking means that some real money has to be kept in reserve.  This is normally money in a central bank or similar, not cash in a vault.  Not in 2012.

OP, you are a bit short sighted.

I have bought completely legal items with my Bitcoins. There are many legal items that can be bought with Bitcoin. As time passes, more and more items will be available.

No, you are redefining supply to mean something completely different, as it suits you.  The coins are still there, and people will work hard to get any money from them at all, because noone are going to want them.  Do you think Bitcoin would be more valuable if it were much harder to buy them?  Because that's what you are writing.  So far every new exchange and service has made the price go up.  Demand increases as the coins get more liquid and easier to buy and sell.  You seem to think the value will increase if all exchanges close, and you have to find a miner on the street to buy a coin.  And when you get it, you can only use it to buy something illegal.  This does not make sense anywhere but in your own head.  Back in the time when this forum was the only exchange for Bitcoin, a pizza would cost 10,000 BTC.

You finally hit the nail.  People aren't going to use bitcoins if bitcoins are outlawed.  There is no reason to do so.  There are plenty legal payment methods, so why risk using an illegal one?  Or go through any kind of hassle to buy it?  There will be no demand for it, and plenty supply.  You could just as well switch to NMC, in case they forgot to outlaw NMC at the same time.

You speculate a lot and don't concern yourself much with reality.  First of all you are now concerned about legality after all, but you think it will be OK as long as it is legal somewhere.  Laws spread fast.  If the USA or EU outlaw Bitcoin, the rest will come fairly quickly.  The result?  Bitcoins become worthless very fast, and the demand is gone as well.  People will use LR or something instead.  Easier to buy, quite anonymous and irreversible.  More expensive and higher transaction costs, but legal.

But cash is legal, and owning or using cash will not get you arrested.  The same applies to Bitcoin, and Bitcoin is doomed as a currency unless it stays this way.  If the future of Bitcoin is illegal, Bitcoin will become worthless in the future.

That is very funny statement. The worthiness of something doesn't depend on its legal status. You can outlaw the Moon or the Sun but they still will be used by humans.

How can you do anything illegal with a currency that today as a total value of ~$125-130 million again? This is peanuts, worth maybe one minuscule money laundering operation, if at all.

To put it back in context, Wall Street alone got ~$75 billion worth of bonuses last year. The Fed is printing $40 billion each month.

Obviously nobody is bothering doing the math and do a reality check.

Typical negative propaganda from the uninformed.

At this point BTC doesn't have enough traction to withstand the closure of its main exchange without a collapse in value. If Bitcoin was made illegal right now it would be set back very very strongly at this point.

But then there are people like me. I will continue to buy and sell in BTC no matter what the rest of you do.

This is a very silly statement.

I've spent probably $10k worth of Bitcoins over the past year and a half. Not once have I bought drugs. Most of this has been spent paying other individuals for various things (typically freelance contractor work from people in other countries). I find Bitcoin amazing useful for this.

I'm sorry that you have not found a way to use a frictionless international payment system to your benefit other than to speculate on price movements. But if you have as many bitcoins as you claim, I suggest you dig a bit deeper into the utility of this technology instead of fostering this notion that the only things people use it for are drugs.

It's not all that silly.

evoorhees has purchased very geek centric services I suspect. Bitcoin being geek centric currency, it wasn't hard to find a willing seller of geek services.

But, your average joe... what is he going to buy? Computer parts? probably not.. Speculation investments? probably not.... Drugs... More likely than not.

I think what Charlie means is that your average joe who is not a geek has no use for bit coins except to buy drugs or other black market items.

Did evoorhees benefit in any way by paying in bit coins over fiat funds? Avoiding taxes perhaps? I would speculate that even innocent sounding transactions are in someway illegal or are a benefit for avoiding legal issues that might otherwise be applied if paid in fiat currency.

 

Yes, the OP claim was silly, because it stated that the ONLY reason to use BTC is for illegal uses. I then countered with the point that I've bought services from people which were not illegal (or anything close to it). Unless I am lying, this invalidates the OP's point completely. Perhaps he could change his statement to say a large use is for illegal items, but saying the "only use" is hyperbole BS.

And the claim has NOT been made that BTC is currently useful for the "average joe".  It is not useful for him... today. Just as the internet was not useful to the average joe in 1995.

Which means those who are not visionaries, who can not see the future, will be the ones who try to malign bitcoin.

I've heard this all before:

1995: "The web will never be safe for commerce. Only geeks and people looking for porn are on the web."

2012: "Bitcoin will never be safe for commerce. Only geeks and people looking for drugs are using Bitcoin."

Well then... Why wait. certainly the bush has been beaten near to death with insinuations.

I would like to officially make the claim that to the average joe bitcoins are highly useful for buying drugs and other illegal items.

The average joe, if they've ever heard of Bitcoin, have no idea what it is or how to use it.

I'd qualify that and argue that Bitcoin IS currently useful to the average Joe at least as a store of value / inflation hedge (the same way that gold is useful to the average Joe). It's just that the average Joe has yet to recognise that fact.

The definition I'm using is pretty standard:

I've already said that I think making Bitcoin illegal would probably reduce its price, but that's because I think the leftward shift in the demand curve would "overpower" the rightward shift in the supply curve. Again, the coins would come to rest somewhere at the time the ban goes into effect. (Of course, to the extent that people DO in fact delete their wallets to comply with the ban, that also reduces supply.) Holding coins (e.g., knowing the passphrase for a brain wallet) is impossible to prevent. But if you're risking criminal sanction by selling those coins, you're going to demand a premium. Otherwise, you'd prefer to just sit on them and hope for a change in the law.


You're addressing the demand for Bitcoin. Again, I agree that the demand curve shifts left. Why is there still any demand at all? Because Bitcoin is still great money because of its properties, e.g., reliable scarcity, anonymity, low transaction fees, etc.
How is that responsive? Yes, cash is legal. I was responding to your hypothetical about the effect of making cash illegal and explaining why it's not particularly instructive when thinking about what would happen if Bitcoin (or gold) were made illegal.

Gold is illegal, at least in Indiana. (http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/15/liberty-dollar-office-raided/)

From that story:

Is that qualifier really necessary?

http://dollardaze.org/blog/posts/00747/ValueOfOne1913Dollar.png

I can't agree with this poster enough.

I think people are totally underestimating the market's need for a safe, reliable payment system that is NOT subject to counter-party risk. Counter-party risk refers to the risk that a borrower will default on any type of debt by failing to make payments which it is obligated to do.

Let me illustrate this with an example from someone, Person A, who has been approaching me about implementing Bitcoin with their business.

Person A has a business with many blue collar employees. Person A is worried about the business's cash balances being kept in various US banks because they do not know which bank will fail next so Person A keeps most cash reserves in banks outside the US which are more solvant. But Person A is even worried about those banks due to the European sovereign debt crisis and would rather be managing their business instead of worrying on a daily basis about whether their cash balances are safe or not in institutions which are very murky with their finances.

About 2 years ago Person A sent wire instructions late Thursday night to the European bank to move $1,000,000 (the actual amount, not hyperbole) for payroll. Friday the funds had still not hit the US bank but this could be normal due to time differences and Person A thought nothing of it. The $1,000,000 was to be wired to Wachovia and Saturday morning Person A woke up and began watching the news that Wachovia had failed.

Because I knew Person A pretty well and know more about finance, or whatever, he called me frantically and asked, "Is my money safe?" I replied, "I don't know. If the wire transfer was sent off and the federal government does not bailout Wachovia then likely your money is not safe and you will have to wait in line at the FDIC to recover a fraction of the $1,000,000 and it may take many weeks to get the cash in your account." He responded, "This could seriously and materially impact my business and I may not be able to make payroll." I responded, "I know. It sucks."

It is important to keep in mind that with Bitcoin there is NO counter-party risk. Additionally, if the wallet is secured properly there is NO performance risk related to a trustee, fiduciary, etc. who may embezzle funds, etc. like MF Global and others.

When deposits are held at US banks the depositer becomes an unsecured creditor. For businesses the FDIC limits are in most cases extremely small relative to the working capital needs of the businesses.

So a question becomes: What is Person A's fiduciary duty to the corporation in the management of cash balances?

In this case, there is now an alternative available that completely eliminates both counter-party and performance risk. The only material issue with using Bitcoin then becomes ease of integration with employees and exchange rate fluctuations.

It is all fun and games until the average Joe doesn't get his paycheck because of failures in the current banking and payment system. If you were an average Joe and your employer were to say they were offering Bitcoin now because the current banking system is not safe and that corporate funds were almost lost due to a bank failure that would have prevented payroll being met then would you agree to take some or all of your paycheck in Bitcoin. Especially if there were an easy integration with the current banking system with a debit card, etc.?

Just some things to think about.

Hey, y'know what would be even more awesome? If everyone who posted in a thread made some kind of constructive and intelligent contribution to the debate.

Hey sturie I fixed that for you buddy.

You remind me of a comic strip character called Mr. Logic in a magazine called Viz. Some UK people might get a laugh out of that.

Do you have autism? I am not trying to be rude, it's a serious question, because people with autism often get confused like you are.

Let me put it in a more simple way. Let's say I don't currently hold any Bitcoins. I want to buy a product or service. What am I going to do? If I am paying for it online, I would use my Visa card. I punch in the numbers on the website, and I am done. If the product does not arrive then I can put in a dispute to Visa and get my money back. I think it's a good system.

Now, why the fuck would I, instead of going through that simple process, go through the hassle of buying Bitcoin, try to find a merchant who accepts Bitcoin for the product I want, pay him, and then have no recourse either through a payment processor or the police if something goes wrong? Why the utter fuck would anyone do that? It's so utterly bizarre that anyone thinks they would...unless of course it is a product that isn't available through the usual (legal) channels.

Also, as to your second point, I was actually on the internet in 1995. It was a million times more useful than Bitcoin is now. It had so many uses, even back then, that the comparison is actually hilarious.

Yes. Easily.

I'm beginning to think that credit cards are some kind of religious object with many critics of Bitcoin.

Credit cards are just the easiest and safest way to buy things. You know it and I know it, so don't be ridiculous.

It is Bitcoin that seems to be held (by some) with such divine reverence that to even mention that it has some shortcomings is blasphemy here.

Also, to describe me as a critic of Bitcoin is an unfair and inaccurate characterization. I am a Bitcoin supporter. I just have a more realistic view than most.

I found it hard to believe that my own "free" country had banned owning gold in some ways...

This is very unlikely to happen because of the way credit card processors charge their customers. Small businesses usually pay per transaction, and this can be pretty expensive. Huge chains pay a large flat fee to handle unlimited transactions. This is why small stores and bars often impose a minimum transaction for credit card purchases, but supermarket chains don't.

Even if an online store did offer a discount for paying BTC, I doubt it would be much larger than the transaction costs associated with buying BTC. Plus the store themselves would no doubt incur costs when they sold the BTC, plus the high risk of price fluctuations, etc.

A very large chain of stores here in the UK called Marks and Spencers used to accept EUR as well as GBP for a while. They had to stop because fluctuations were harming their bottom line. And this is with very stable currencies (when compared to BTC).


I think superior is the wrong word. More like "vastly more practical for most purchases." Bitcoin is superior for other things. Like buying drugs online.

Maybe in 5 to 10 years things will be vastly different. We'll see.

There are a whole class of people who can't get credit cards, for example young people, students (in Europe) who have no regular income. Poor people who are too poor to get even a bank account, in developing countries. Illegal immigrants who can't go to a bank where they live. People with bad or no credit rating, ...

The list can go on and on.

This is a sizable chunk of the market which is currently not served by regular credit card companies.

Yes, but the banks aren't standing still as far as moving to serve that market.
This just making headlines today:

Prepaid Enters Mainstream
Venture Between Wal-Mart and American Express Illustrates Industry Shift
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444897304578044313831625492.html

The average joe don't buy drugs on SR either.  The number of computer geeks in the world outnumber the number of SR users many times, and how many computer illiterates know about SR at all?

For you, not for the merchant who don't get his money because you took the product and filed a dispute with VISA.  Actually it is not good for you either, because VISA's merchant fees of 3% or more is added to the price tag, and the losses due to fraud.  PayPal is even worse.
If the item is offered for sale in bitcoins, and you own bitcoins, it is the simplest way to pay.  It is like paying with cash on the net.  The police and other agencies are already investigating a number of Bitcoin related crimes.  I agree we need to work out a legal status for Bitcoin, so they can aid more and the tax status is clarified.

There are plenty of legal things you may not want on your credit card bill, btw.  I'm sure you can think of a few for yourself.
Say 1992 then.  Before the WWW.  The number of internet users then is probably comparable to the number of Bitcoin users now.  Basic services like E-mail, Usenet, IRC, games (MUD), gopher and FTP were in place.  Typical transfer rates were rather low.  Or internet banking in 1995.

Anyone who reads rolling stone regularly would have heard of silk road. Gavin Andresen is quoted in that article.

When the gawker article came out in 2011, a lot of news aggregators linked to it with  the same headline.....
"The underground website where you can buy any drug imaginable" or a more recent headline "Amazon.com for illegal drugs"

http://gawker.com/5805928/the-underground-website-where-you-can-buy-any-drug-imaginable
http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/amazon-com-for-illegal-drugs/

And there is word-of-mouth to spread the word.. which is part of the core culture of drug use. Help a brutha out.

How does the average joe participate? Through eBay sales. Joe isn't going to go through the trouble of signing up for an MtGox account. He's willing to pay as much as 50% over value to get bitcoins on ebay. The going rate is 30% over value. Of all the coins I have sold on eBay, the buyers are either holding on to them long term or they head directly to tumblers.

Based on sales and comments by buyers, I also assume that a group of people work through a tech savvy friend and coordinate/combine purchases. Also a core part of the drug culture.

Nothing new really except the guy who knows a guy is buying online and the price is a little higher but the options are greater. The casual user is you, your next door neighbor, your boss, your mom. If nothing else... Silk Road is a safer alternative than buying off the street.

Nothing new under the sun. During the entire humankind history always criminals were the first to adopt every new technology. Should we stop developing new technologies just because of this fact?

You'd be surprised at how EASY it is to get a credit card (in the UK atleast). Now try and get an over draft... well sir now that is difficult if your any of the above. If you have a name and adress you can pretty much get a credit card here, one of the reasons fraud is also such a big deal here.


As f
Fully agree with this ^

Im your average Joe, found out about Bitcoins through Silk road from a friend, since then Ive told loads of people about Silk Road (I try bitcoins but being fairly computer illiterate by the standards here I dont do so well)

Id have to say for the time being atleast, bitcoins future is illegal.

My guess will be another Crypto currency will spring up, with a fresh start and be a little 'cleaner' if you get what I mean. Right now bitcoin has a pretty bad reputation and I dont really see it changing for a while.

Hell ive been here for about 5 months now lurking (kicking myself for not buying up big time back then) and ive gone from wanting to jump straight in to being alot more cautious. Why? Because the majority of the people using bitcoins seem to be computer nerds with a chip on their shoulder, the amount of scams, hacks and general chatter on this forum is a fairly big warning sign for someone like myself.

I see the potential and I loved the whole ideology aspect of bitcoin, but seems to me that died a while ago and what we have now is a rat race with rats alot more tech savy than myself, no thanks, for now atleast.

The OP suggests that we should encourage it and find new illegal ways to use bitcoin. I agree. I also agree that shady dealings are the first to use new technology. The porn industry revolutionized delivery of video online. This is a great example of a shady business that could be convinced to deal in bitcoins that would benefit bit coin by increasing demand.

Baloney.  That's the sort of reasoning behind Executive Order 6102 (Roosevelt's gold confiscation order).  I would argue that forward-thinking people seeking protection from economic collapse are looking at BTC as well as gold.  If some criminals are seeking tools to carry out their illegal activities then BTC will certainly be one of them.  But good old-fashioned USD greenbacks are the mainstay of illegal activity, not BTC.

I wouldn't go so far as to call you a critic. But if you think the point of bitcoin is to compete with credit cards... then you've really just missed the idea entirely. The entire issue with credit cards, chargebacks and selling online is "fraud prevention". Businesses (especially small business) hate the risk involved with accepting credit cards. The potential for the business owner to be left holding the bag on a bad transaction are huge.

One of the main reason that btc will gain traction vs credit is that you can't do any sort of chargeback. It removed 90% of the risk involved for the vendor. Yes, currently there may be more risk relative to the floating price of btc - but that becomes less of a concern as it gets more users and becoming more commonly accepted.

Before you discount this idea see american express... they came late to the card market and they charge higher fees (yearly) than most credit cards and they penetrated (and now dominate) the card market based solely on being a non-credit card.

That's both an unfounded assertion and a logical fallacy combined. Congrats.

Please explain to me which online payment method is easier and safer than credit cards. If you say "Bitcoin" then you are as dumb as a sack of rocks.

Ad hominem also. At least you're batting .1000.

Count me as unswayed by your argument.

My entire point is that Bitcoin can't compete with credit cards and shouldn't try. You are preaching to the choir here, you should raise this point to the oddball "end the fed" Libertarians and assorted "global economic collapse is coming" tin foil hatted whackos participating in this thread who preach the bizarre and unhelpful dogma that Bitcoin is the future of all payment and currency.



And puts 100% of the risk on to the consumer. You think consumers are going to stand for that? Especially when dealing with small businesses who don't have a strong brand? Not a chance.

Count me as unaware of your argument, since you have decided not to make any point at all other than to put your fingers in your ears and say "You are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong" over and over again.

Also, that is not an ad hominem attack. An ad hominem attack would be "You are as dumb as a sack of rocks, so you must be wrong."

You seem very convinced of your ability to determine whether an argument is logically sound or not. I can only assume that means you are also confident of your ability to construct one. I would be delighted to hear it. I'd be very surprised too, because you haven't contributed in a remotely substantial way as of yet.

I would have to disagree about that. Bitcoin is way easier than a credit card.

In what way? I can understand that it is equally easy to make a credit card payment as it is to make a Bitcoin payment if you already own coins, but if you don't hold any coins then it is a much more convoluted procedure.

I have to say, bitcoin is much easier than credit cards for online payments.  You can skip the "billing address" part entirely, since that is just used to reduce credit card fraud.  And if your purchase doesn't involve a physical delivery, you can skip the shipping address too.  For ephemeral things, it really is as easy as sending the coins and getting the download link.

Safer, however, is a whole different story.  Bitcoin is irreversible, so if the seller doesn't deliver, you can get screwed.  Credit cards payments can pretty much always be reversed, which is great for buyers.  Also, the worst that can happen if the credentials get stolen is that you have the annoyance of cancelling the old card and getting a new one.

So, neither one of them is both "safer" and "easier", they are split.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't already hold coins (99.99999999% of the population.) Do you still think making a Bitcoin payment is easier?

This is just an accident of history, not a consequence of the design of either system.  If that was a requirement, credit cards wouldn't have taken off, nor would paper money, nor gold.  These are all things that no one had, once.

Yes, but we aren't starting both scenarios from scratch, are we? I am talking about the real world, as it is now. Not a thought experiment with a level playing field.

I've definitely acknowledged things that have changed my point of view in this thread. One of them is the idea that Bitcoin can be used to empower disenfranchised residents of the third world who have been excluded from banking by giving them access to a payment system. I think in practice though that would create a two tier system and I wouldn't like to speculate on the implications of that. If anyone does move a project like that forward I think it would be very interesting, and I'll definitely be watching out for it in the future.

I think your kindergartener vs. pro athlete analogy is a little flawed. It severely understates how primitive Bitcoin is compared to the global financial system. I think it would be closer to compare it to some type of microorganism vs. a pro athlete. A bacteria is never going to beat a star quarterback, but it could evolve and change, over a very long time, into something that is good at playing a totally different game.

If we are making parting comments, I'll say this: I am very disappointed that so many people have interpreted my views as criticism of Bitcoin, and even more disappointed at the people who have accused me of trolling.

One guy said "Get over it Charlie, Bitcoins have a bright future."

It's sad that he probably will never understand that we agree wholeheartedly on that point, it's just a different type of bright future than he envisages.

The Google CEO said:


If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.


If having gold is considered criminal, bitcoin isnt?


For those who are worried about Google, please see your defense. (http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/)  :)

I would use Tor all the time if it wasn't so frustratingly slow.

FTFY.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2053520&page=1#.UHVVAGMk5_M

well maybe not a quarterback...

I have elderly grandparents living in a poor country that is on the terrorist watchlist. I used to wire (from the US) about $8K a month to pay for their medical and hospice care bills. I make a faily decent salary working in an investment bank and I live well below my means, so sending them this money should not be a problem one would think. It turned out that each wire transfer I made tripped some kind of AML/anti-terrorist trigger and subsequently got delayed for weeks while I had to keep contacting the bank and explaining to them why I needed to send this money ... over and over and over again. We are talking about $8k/month here, not millions of dollars. I wonder how businesses can freely wire millions of dollars while an individual can't send a few thousand?

When I head of Bitcoin about a year ago I devised a scheme where I can send money using coins through my sister. She lives in an intermediate country where she can still easily cash out the coins through Mt.Gox, and then wire the money to my grandparents without the unreasonable restrictions placed by the US authorities. Problem solved!

So yeah, I use Bitcoin to bypass AML and anti-terror restrictions.

While paying with a credit card is easy, even if you don't own money or the credit card.  And that sums up the main problems with credit cards.  Paying with Bitcoin is impossible if you don't own any bitcoins, or can buy them from someone willing to take the risk off the merchant, and that is exactly how it should be.  It is a feature.  If you don't understand that, you have missed something very important.

False.  I hold bitcoins, and I am more than 0.00000001% of the world population.

Edit: I just realized I have sold or given away bitcoins to 0.005% of the population of my own country, and that is probably just a small part of the coin holding population of my country.

*sigh*

You're the autistic guy aren't you?

Is it too much to hope that you concentrate on the actual argument rather than the completely inconsequential numbers that I used illustrate it? Or am I in the wrong forum for that?

Let me ask you a question. If someone says "Can you wait a second?" do you look at your watch and wait for one second to elapse?

TAre you saying that it's easier to do credit card fraud than Bitcoin fraud?

I actually can't argue with that, since I have no idea how credit card fraud works. I do know one thing though, people go to prison for credit card fraud but Bitcoin fraud seems to be done openly and with impunity.

If you take Satoshi Dice out of the equation, I wonder how many bitcoin transactions have been people sending money to a place where they expected to get their coins back somehow and didn't in the end. I'd imagine a not inconsequential percentage.

I tend to look at this differently.

Paying with credit card is essentially no more than saying that company X will pay you on my behalf. Subsequently, company X will come to me for the amount paid increased with fees/interest.

The same type of construction is possible with Bitcoin. Company X will pay you on my behalf, but not in USD but BTC instead. Subsequently, company X will come to me for the amount of BTC paid (or USD if agreed upon) increased with fees/interest.

From that perspective, speaking about credit card payments on the one hand and BTC payments on the other hand is comparing apples with oranges.

The more I think about it, the more it dawns on me that BTC's essential property is really ease of payment. Not the software, not your HDD rumbling for hours, correction, days without end to update the blockchain but the pure and simple fact that I can send 'something' to anyone, even the moon (figurally speaking) if an astronaut has some sort of Internet connection. In fact, an internet connection is not even required for the receiver for the payment itself. He can generate his own unique key throuhg brainwallet.org or similar algorithm available offline to send BTC to.

The purse simple fact of a payment requires nothing other than me, my internet connection, the Bitcoin protocol and a receiving address. No blockades, no interference, nobody skimming fees in between and holding up one of the most simple and valuable things on earth: exchange between humans.

In a very abstract way of thinking about Bitcoin, everything that was not possible due to payment frictions, is now possible due to Bitcoin. Just to round off this little brainstorming event, a lot of things are alread possible:
*electronic money
*mobile money
*international payments

Not considering its flaws, Paypal is already immensely usefull due to its property of easy online payments outside of the banking system.

Very rough, Bitcoin enables the following additional properties:
*virtually no fees
*receive electronic payments without a bank account/Paypal account
*no central control

I do not see myself paying with BTC at the grocery store due to BTC's unique properties. But the same properties make it immensely usefull to make payments all over the world/universe to anyone, literally anyone, without limitations (if waiting for confirmation is not a problem; exactly the reason why I do not see it happening for BTC at the grocery store).

It is already possible to purchase the most outlandisch tablet from the most remote tablet factory/seller from China. Within time, you can also pay the chap without limitations.

Trust is not the problem (its a topic of trade as long as people have existed). Ability to pay/receive is, at least for a large part of the world (not our 1st world). Let's wait for smartphones and mobile internet to break through in developing countries. From where I am now in my line of thinking, that will be the most important source of BTC's upcoming success. Secondary properties (such as the fixed amount of 21 million BTC) are helpful (e.g., for the 1st world users).

It's gonna be great  ;D

So I use my bitcoin credit-card instead of bitcoin, so what, I don't see that invalidating bitcoin or making it "niche", and I expect I have a better chance of actually being able to get a bitcoin credit card than to get a fiat credit card though that would just be an artifact of which credit-rating agencies are consulted by the card-issuers I would think.

-MarkM-

No, but I certainly don't expect to wait for a whole week.  IMHO a long series of made up 9s expresses the same as the same number of exclamation marks.  Your argument doesn't get better by yelling it, but people would take it more seriously if you wrote it like this instead:
Or you could make it look even better, and make people notice your point, like this:
If you read this thread closely, I answered that.  It's a feature.  People who don't have money can't pretend to pay.  That is very important if you sell things, and the main reason why many stores are reluctant to take credit cards.

I tried to buy stuff in the U.S. and have it mailed to a friend there to avoid VAT.  (Sending it via my home address would mean 25% VAT and much higher shipping costs.)  It turned out to be impossible, because no store would send to another address than the one registered with my cards.  I wish I could pay with bitcoins then.  It takes maximum one business day to buy coins if you don't have any, unless you live in some third world country.

Was sending an email easier than mailing a letter in 1995 if you didn't have a computer, an internet connection, or an email account? Well, no, probably not. But the new technology was so superior to the old that it's hardly a surprise that over the next decade and a half millions of people acquired those things and learned to use them. Nor is it a surprise that people designed systems that worked with the underlying technology and made it much, much easier to use.

YEAH! ACTAUL MONEY. The kind made of paper! Not that unbacked stuff. That's what I'M talkin' 'bout!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zG8wp82bsQ


Replace 'auxiliary' with 'monetary'. I don't agree with the premise either but that's unimportant.

My succinct response to your posts is:

• Good call on the 2011 bubble.
• Replace 'Bitcoin' with 'gold' in your examples and see how they read. Bitcoin's suitability as a currency vis-a-vis dollars and its suitability as money relative to fiat are separate issues. The former is highly contingent; the latter less so.
• Check out Gresham's Law/Exter's Pyramid.

It is. :)

the sad thing is that some here will not even perceive your masterful use of irony

I believe that if BTC ever becomes mainstream, it needs to be legal, so help it to get more positive view and cooperate with certain regulations are necessary

If most of people find this thing insecure and illegal, they will not bother

Or, let it just be a currency in the virtual world, anyway the virtual economy is going to be as large as real economy in the future, and there are far less regulation in the virtual world

There is nothing virtual about bit coin, it is an electronic currency, not monopoly money!

Yeah, but those are the only (or at least the primary) kind of companies that would seem to fit a reasonable definition of "Bitcoin business."  If you deliberately set out to start a "Bitcoin business," it will probably have something to do with exchanges or moving money. If it doesn't, you're almost certainly setting yourself up for failure.  

"Bitcoin is so cool! I want to start a Bitcoin business! Hmm... I know, I'll make custom hats with my Bedazzler(TM) and sell them online for bitcoins!"

Well ok, great, but you're forgetting something.  Bitcoin is a currency and a payment system. It's not a business plan. It doesn't magically make the goods and services you intend to provide valuable. Now it's true that in SOME cases, the revolutionary properties of Bitcoin might enable a completely new business model (e.g., Silk Road), but that will be the exception.  For the most part, what you'll see are existing businesses adding Bitcoin as an additional payment option.  Making it the exclusive payment option is (in almost all cases) like opening a fireworks store that only sells snakes and sparklers -- it probably won't do great things for your sales numbers.  And things will likely stay that way for quite some time as Bitcoin becomes more widely known and used.  But remember - the fact that a hat seller allows you to buy their hats using bitcoins doesn't make them a "Bitcoin business" any more than their acceptance of dollars makes them a "dollar business."  So if you want to start a business that leverages one or more of Bitcoin's unique properties (e.g., ability to send micro-payments), then that's great.  And if you just want to sell Bedazzled hats, that's great too.  But in either case, understand what you're getting into.

The laws are set up to "raise the bar" for "competing" financial infrastructures such as bitcoin from arising.

For example merely setting up experimental "exchanges" for exchanging the experimental currency "bitcoin" ran into quite a bit of hassle due to legal concerns, and setting up an experimental "stock exchange" seems to have, or to have been about to have, run into more.

Preventing the experiment from actually being run long term is problematic, maybe we should also have set up an experimental "school" where people would create "student" usernames who would perform these experiments, or something.

I have been taking the approach from the start that no one is going to participate in such experiments day in and day out year in and year out with play money they consider worthless, thus that at the very least we need our experimental institutions to be set in an experimental world/universe in which the experimental currency / currencies are valued, much like EVE online's currency is valued and World of Warcraft gold is valued and so on.

If the experiment is a success, that is, if it succeeds in developing robust, reliable institutions, solving the "rampant scams" problem players attempting to participate in investment and finance in EVE Oinline constantly encounter and so on, then we can consider the experiment a success and start looking into what would be involved in expanding an experimental, aka game or "not real just a simulation so far" currency and its institutions into the "real world".

Unfortunately the scammers seem dead set on convincing people not only that their scams are legitimate experimental uses of this experimental software, legitimate instriturions of its experimental world/game/universe, but also that the whole thing is not in fact an experiment but an actual deployment of an actual currency.

That last part is probably a huge part of the problem. The whole thing has been massively misrepresented by people seeking "a quick buck", bringing bad rep to the entire experiment and the experimental settings and institutions in which and means of which the experiment is conducted.

-MarkM-

I totally agree with that and this is what makes the most sense indeed. This is the most efficient way to legitimate Bitcoin like it has been for PayPal for example. If this payment option is given, people (most of which have never heard or seen a bitcoin name and logo) will be curious. Combined with some free advertisement/endorsement (e.g. Max Keiser and the like) it will slowly get traction.

At present it is a very small volume currency. To date with ~10 million bitcoin mined at $12 per coin this is only a $120 million market, a drop in the ocean of paper currency (that can be printed ex nihilo) really. Value will have to increase significatively.

As always, time will tell.

The bitcoin system is ahead of its time, it's unclear if the society will be able to adopt its model in a short time. Investing time and money other than in a speculative way could be not a win situation at this time. Selling products for bitcoins is very risky for those who need an immediate profit.

Bitcoin and every kind of bond that have face value in bitcoin and are traded in bitcoin, will not be legal in near term future. Bitcoin is changing the status quo while financial laws and regulations are crafted to preserve this status quo. Learn from history!

Before the printing press was invented only the Holy Church has the right to sanction the writing of books. People should read only true stuff and someone should take care about that - they say. The printing press was invented by the German Johannes Gutenberg around 1440. And guess what, it was declared illegal and all the books printed were outlawed by the Church. Many people were sentenced to death and burned to death. The printing press changed the status quo and challenged the POWER of gatekeepers of human knowledge through controlling horizontal communication between people! As early as 1620, the English statesman and philosopher Francis Bacon could write that typographical printing has "changed the whole face and state of things throughout the world". Same repeats now with bitcoin. Just this same theater has modern decors.

Oh, they are believe me! Red lights are flashing and alarm bells are ringing at many government agencies. People that helped start bitcoin project intended to create a substitute to physical gold. But they are wrong. Bitcoin and gold are perfect additions to each other.

I don't see any reason why government will claim a potential investment target illegal, is gold or silver illegal? Some even more close example are Linden dollar or WOW gold, are they illegal?

Absolutely. Remember when Pirate's Ponzi crashed?

Bitcoin will gain with illegal activity. I wouldn't be surprised of there's human trafficking in exchange for btc.

Gold was indeed made illegal under Franklin Roosevelt in the United States in 1933. Holding physical gold could land you in jail. Check out Executive Order 6102. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

I tried to sell some products for bitcoins and guess what, nobody buys! This may be due to the prices which are a little bit higher than the price in dollars, but it may also show that bitcoin is not preffered for buying goods. So perhaps it will remain only an economical tool for the darkest corners of internet and a speculation area. Therefore, the bitcoin could not have a very bright future.

Maybe the sorts of people that buy your products just haven't heard of bitcoin yet.

I doubt that...

To me it's an expensive hassle to obtain BTC and through most paths I have to deal with entities who I don't trust (potentially including the likes of Dwolla, the various Bitcoin exchanges, my banks, and my government who is almost certainly logging all of my financial activity.)  To top it off, I am concerned that it will become even more difficult to obtain BTC going forward so the supply I hold currently exceeds the 'face value' in my mind.  That is why I have little or no interest in spending BTC when there are options.

Am I a bad person for failing to support the nascent economy?  Probably.  OTOH, I've not yet been ripped off either.  I consider the USD<->BTC hassles which currently exist to be something of a blessing insofar as it gives the solution an excuse to fail at the exchange level.  Perhaps the solution would not be so rife with bad apples absent the roadblocks to use which are currently in place.  I actually don't really believe that in a major way because the roadblocks are not that significant and the failures have been mostly associated with user error (aka, ignorance, greed, false mapping, etc) in my opinion.  But it makes a good story at least.

I think as you see even easier ways for everyone to buy btc - there will be an increase in fraud and scams until the percentages are close to normal. Right now we've got very little fraud because the market is small.

Dude aside from mining (and mining related) and speculation/coin resales, EVERYTHING else is a scam. I wouldn't call that very little fraud.

May?  Don't forget that most people who are interested in Bitcoin at this time probably knows a little bit about economics as well.  :)

When you get real hard irreversible cash like Bitcoin, you should take a lower price.

And what if the value of bitcoin drops because of some speculations? You will lose that money. The bitcoin can't be taken seriously when it comes to commerce. I don't think anybody would agree to sell a product lower than it's value to get some coins, if you want coins you can simply buy it with money.

If I had a widget or a service that I wanted to sell, I'd offer at least a 5% discount for BTC, and probably more like 15% or 20% just to avoid the hassles of acquiring BTC in other ways.  As it is I've got about the number of BTC that I want, nothing I want to sell, and there does not exist a means by which low-ish value transactions can be performed safely and inexpensively anyway (imo.)

You are of course right about the volatility, though it can work in two directions.  That is in fact a big part of the reason I am interested in holding BTC.  This speculative use-case is not appropriate for typical commerce though so I'll largely agree with your point here.  I don't think it dooms Bitcoin to a value-less state, and it could even work in the other direction in terms of values against other stores.

Because Bitcoin is like cash and kinda anonymous, it's up to real people to decide to engage in real transactions using as much of an accountable and real identity as they'd like.  It's tough to have anonymity and accountability at the same time and we have plenty of non-accountable scams to show for it.  It will take some time for people to figure out a good way to do Bitcoin business without being so open to fraud and (hopefully) not having to completely identify themselves...

I think the 'increase in price' is a problem. Personally, if I were to start taking payment with an existing business I'd be offering discounts for btc for the simple fact that it removes all risk on my part as a vendor. Once the payment is confirmed I have that coin. I'd also most likely be converting it instantly into fiat except for some small percentage (equal to the fixed costs I'm already paying for to operate my business on a day to day basis). In this way I would build up my name brand while still making more money. Bitcoin reduces overhead in most payment situations, and I'd want to pass some of that saving onto my customers.

If you're attempting to increase your prices because you don't trust bitcoin (or just out of greed) then I'm not at all surprised that you aren't selling.

I don't think that's entirely true.  If you're a vendor on SR or BMR aren't there escrow mechanisms to prevent a "take the money and run"?

I was speaking about direct sales... aka for legitimate and legal good (most likely done through automated checkout on company website).

It's not the illegal thing with me as the fact that when I want to send someone a Bitcoin there is no one who jump up and say 'you cant do that' and no one I have to go to, hat in hand, for permission that might not be granted for, you know, reasons.

I think it's the 'permission' thing that motivates me.

yes bitcoin future will be great and illegal and i think both have great future but the main thing is profitability as a investor you have to think how to get maximum profits and when you are watching according to profit then i Crypto Market has great future,

The question is, why bitcoin is illegal ? is that because peoples can gained much profit with bitcoin like you ?
price of bitcoin is decide by the market. so it is not our fault that bitcoin price is high and we sell it.

the future of bitcoin will not be elegant because I may be able to propagate it in the country and support it by the governments of every nation.

I think bitcoin does not have to be illegal because bitcoin does not violate the rules and bitcoin is not on the criminal track. so if anyone says illegal bitcoin is not right

I think I should disagree with that the future of bitcoin is illegal because I can see with the current stand of bitcoin here in our country many more people are embracing the culture or process flow of bitcoin and using this in for good purposes. Also many more establishments here are studying on how they can use bitcoin or corporate bitcoin on their business. Maybe if you were thinking that bitcoins future is illegal you are currently using bitcoin in illegal. This is basic that you are thinking not so good here because you are already using this in your illegal doing. Well different people different ways to use bitcoin which I can say that not all people is not the bad side there are more people in the good side of usage of bitcoin.   

I think it's not worth worrying about. Many processes do not depend on us. It is necessary to be able to wait. And we will see the real picture

Bitcoin's future is illegal.
the future we can not guess, whether bitcoin becomes illegal or not.
because at this time bitcoin still much in demand among the community and the community itself many feel the benefits of bitcoin itself.

The future of Bitcoin is legal. It is safe & easy to carry in the whole world.

I am not agree with this opinion that the future of bitcoin is illegal i think bitcoin will use in a common way i the future and the future of this currency is good because many business transactions will takes place through this currency and the crypto money is also very important for us because we can invest in this the trading facility is also a good way to make profit.

I dis-agree with that oponion, the future of the bitcoin someday is legal it will become more safe and easy to use. the question should be is why the bitcoin is illegal if it only does is give profits to the person who is require.

I do not understand why Bitcoin is seen as illegal. There are people who use Bitcoin for malicious purposes. That's right.
But why are we accusing the market of Crpyo money because some people are using it badly.
It's wrong to dismiss the Crypto world instead of fixing it. It's an important step for our future. We need to use this right.

anyone who wants dollars in this environment is not paying a great deal of attention

currently bitcoin is still considered illegal but still there are many who trade it. in the future it could still be the same. yes true, inflation of the dollar also affects the bitcoin trade, on the one hand the bitcoin price itself is also fluctuating. we should be able to set the right strategy to compare between dollar inflation and bitcoin fluctuations.

Bitcoin is a digital currency, it has a great value and it is natural to be used in some illegal activities but we do not need to blame bitcoin about it since Bitcoin is just being used. Even if a lot of people use Bitcoin for just their transaction purposes, there will be always criminals who will use it but it will not be banned or be illegal since fiats are used in the same way but not banned by the country.

Bitcoin is useful for legal marketing strategies, though not too far away at the moment. You are working on a site that is supposed to increase the popularity of Bitcoin, the back is still under development and has not reached the beta, I need an alternative income, which causes real world economic problems. Many of them will never be able to generate wealth in conventional financial markets, so they are trying to create this kind of market.

In the future bitcoin still can not be ascertained will be legal or illegal. All depends on regulation in every country that can accept bitcoin. Then the impact given by bitcoin will be good or bad. If the adverse effect given may be bitcoin will be illegal.

Things are still in the grey area when it comes to the legal stands of the cryptocurrencies. However, I believe that governments would try their best to restrict the usage of cryptocurrencies in most of the countries but as it is a technology based on the decentralization, it is impossible for the government to destroy it. Any minor mistake would lead to a huge trouble for the government so governments are still in the wait and watch mode. The next decade would shape this sector putting the impact on the whole century.

There is no Bitcoin feature that can be considered illegal. We are working on a promotional Website in Bitcoin that our precious time is not wasted.
Bitcoin can easily be transferred, economic permanence and its has  own independence.  ;) ;)

the future of bitcoin is as unpredictable as possible.I think that we will be very shocked what can happen in a short time

"Future of bitcoin is illegal".  ;D  ;D Topic selection should be correct.  How future can be legal or illegal.  Past Present Future are just status of time and is funny if I say it was illegal.  "Bitcoin in future will be illegal or legal" is correct statement.
But don't worry, nothing is going to happen like this.  Bitcoin is gaining popularity day by day.  Governments / institutions will certainly find some ways to make it legal, world over because of it's advantages.

No thats not true . Bitcoin in the fure will grow fast in a good way. Our future will become rich . And lots of Us earned in an easiest way . We here in this world can live happily and we can be able sustain the needs everyday without feeling hastle. More people will be blessed becaused of bitcoin.

Bitcoin is basically like gold, can any country declare gold to be illegal? No, but in order to tackle issues related to sales and purchase of the metal, governing bodies were set up in every country around the globe. Bitcoin will have a similar future as well.

I dont think so because many countries going to legal it and the popularity of Bitcoin increasing. Investors attract from Bitcoin and it create more demand of it.If this trend will continue Bitcoin will be global currency and commonly used in every state.

I strongly disagree with the illegal word in the future of Bitcoin, Because from this Bitcoin I have got good results, and also from this Bitcoin I get a lot of work fields that I can get for profit and also as a means to save and my capital for my future will be even better.
From this Bitcoin also I get a lot of science about the World Investment that previously did not I do not understand.
So, Bitcoin in the future I think is not illegal !, it is from Bitcoin that will prosper all the people in this world, and all its users become better developed in the future.

I disagree that "there is only one reason for a normal person to want a Bitcoin - to break rules, laws, and regulations" Normal person like me use bitcoin for most of my money remittance overseas. It helps me save time and I enjoy the freedom it gives me over the control of my money. I wonder how an expert in cryptocurrency can make such claims that bitcoins strive on illegalities. If we don't change this mentality, it will be hard for uninitiated to join the bitcoin train.

Yes, Bitcoin is listing at the illegal things because goverments still don't have the resolution for it's anonymous but actually America and Japan already adopted it.
In the nearly future, if those goverments figure the way out to control the anonymous of Bitcoin , they will absolutely adopt it and at that moment, Bitcoin will become the global currency.

I'm sure on the contrary, someday more countries will use bitcoin for global transactions so more countries are accepting and legalizing bitcoins.

Keep the spirit in digging your potential to find what you want in bitcoin to quickly materialize and you feel satisfied after you get it.
The popularity of bitcoin will increase if we generate bitcoin stability so we only do the best for the future of bitcoin so the world recognizes that bitcoin is worth using.

As what you have just said Bitcoin is already legalized in Japan and America and this two country are one of the biggest in terms of technology and technology innovation, sooner or later a lot of countries will be legalizing this monetary innovation because of its potential in the global market and economy. My point of view is different from the point of view of the thread starter and Bitcoin will be legalized in majority of the countries in the near future. 8)

want to be illegal or not is not important in my opinion. the most important is how I must become a millionaire in the bitcoin digital world
. if in the future say bitcon illegal why every year there are countries that join and receive bitcoin.