The future of Bitcoin is illegal

[nobbynobbynoob]

As for the conclusion illegal->price raise, there is no solid evidence to back it up, just some wild speculation.

Prohibition -> reduction in supply (supply curve shifted leftward) -> higher market price

Econ 101!

[cunicula]

Prohibition -> reduction in supply (supply curve shifted leftward) -> higher market price

Econ 101!

Supply is fixed. You only need to concern yourself with demand. Publicity is possible, but whether this boosts or reduces demand is not obvious.

[FLHippy]

There is only one reason for a normal person to want a Bitcoin - to break rules, laws, and regulations. This is the future of Bitcoin, this is what will drive the price up, and I think this is what we should all be focusing on.

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts and ideas about this. I think that gambling in the USA is an untapped market but there may be other laws that we can help people break with Bitcoin too.

There is a bit of a catch 22 when attracting illegal dealings to bitcoin. This catch 22 exists on multiple levels. The highest level being that even the medium sized players would need a lot more value to the bitcoin to be interested in participating. Currently, it's like taking micro payments to these types. I think there is a total value of about 150 million dollars? This would need to be in the billions to have enough to go around to satisfy all the players who think 10 million dollars is an average take.

Here are some suggestions for the illegal side.

Getting Kim DotCom on board with bitcoin will probably drive the price up more than The dread pirate roberts has.
While not really illegal, the porn industry probably hates chargebacks. They could offer lower rates to people who pay in bitcoin.
Money Laundering.
Rainy day legal defense funds.
Political bribes.
Credit card theft, turn the stolen funds into bitcoin through forexes that pop up and disappear.
A bitcoin fencing operation... buy stolen goods for bitcoin. Operates like a silk road for stolen televisions.
a bitcoin based cash for gold for stolen jewelry. (cue south park audio byte)
Identity theft. Buy a new identity with bitcoins.
bets for video based blood sports like cock fighting and dog fighting.


Shit I could do this all day. There is a zillion things that are illegal that could benefit from bitcoin... but all of this shit is moot - it will take nearly a full generation before the majority of the population has the computer skills required to participate in the bitcoin process. The drug buyers are somewhat used to a certain level of scammery and taxation... They get taxed when they buy their drug coins on eBay and they get taxed for the privilege of buying their drugs in a safer online environment. There aren't many dinosaurs like me who have the computer skills to even set up tor.

[paraipan]

What is illegal? As people start distrusting govt-backed "money" they will figure out that govt-backed "laws" are no different. They are just arbitrary abstractions imposed on them against their will. Or do you suggest that governments these days have highest approval ratings in history? No, they don't.

The future of Bitcoin is that govt in its current form will be dimmed illegal!
You're dealing with Super Nova explosion here in slow-mo, there is nothing you can do about it other than observe its magnificence, and don't get too close or you'll get burned.

Had to quote it, awesome post is awesome... 

[RaTTuS]

What is illegal? As people start distrusting govt-backed "money" they will figure out that govt-backed "laws" are no different. They are just arbitrary abstractions imposed on them against their will. Or do you suggest that governments these days have highest approval ratings in history? No, they don't.

The future of Bitcoin is that govt in its current form will be dimmed illegal!
You're dealing with Super Nova explosion here in slow-mo, there is nothing you can do about it other than observe its magnificence, and don't get too close or you'll get burned.

Had to quote it, awesome post is awesome... 

:-p

[jojo69]

What is illegal? As people start distrusting govt-backed "money" they will figure out that govt-backed "laws" are no different. They are just arbitrary abstractions imposed on them against their will. Or do you suggest that governments these days have highest approval ratings in history? No, they don't.

The future of Bitcoin is that govt in its current form will be dimmed illegal!
You're dealing with Super Nova explosion here in slow-mo, there is nothing you can do about it other than observe its magnificence, and don't get too close or you'll get burned.

we are witnessing the end of the relevance of the nation state in real time, take notes kids, its fascinating stuff.

[Wekkel]

What is illegal? As people start distrusting govt-backed "money" they will figure out that govt-backed "laws" are no different. They are just arbitrary abstractions imposed on them against their will. Or do you suggest that governments these days have highest approval ratings in history? No, they don't.

we are witnessing the end of the relevance of the nation state in real time, take notes kids, its fascinating stuff.

Bitcoin's consequences could be mind boggling.

[CharlieContent]

Troll thread attracts trolls, film at 11.

I'm not sure why you think this is a troll thread. Because I hold opinions that are different to the majority of people here? Tough shit man. If you want Bitcoin to be a currency to be widely adopted, you're going to have to accept that it's not a social club for people who all think the same. I'm happy to respect your opinions if you want to chime in. To be honest I think you are the one trolling, because you are doing nothing to contribute to the discussion. Feel free to contribute intelligently and prove me wrong.

That goes for the other guy who posted just to accuse myself and others of being trolls too.

[mobile4ever]

Prohibition -> reduction in supply (supply curve shifted leftward) -> higher market price

Econ 101!

Supply is fixed. You only need to concern yourself with demand. Publicity is possible, but whether this boosts or reduces demand is not obvious.

I think this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77151.0;all


Will bring worldwide publicity to BTC if it is done correctly.

[CharlieContent]

Hi Charlie, I'm trying to understand your first point more clearly, in one paragraph you post about the more able members helping the weaker members, but following that you are stating a clear desire to push the price up to sell for more for personal profit. (almost sounds like a pump-and-dump)

Hi. I was talking about society as a whole. The point that I was trying to make is that I don't have a political agenda for using Bitcoin. I don't really see trying to get the price up as anyway similar to a pump and dump.

[muyuu]

As for the conclusion illegal->price raise, there is no solid evidence to back it up, just some wild speculation.

Prohibition -> reduction in supply (supply curve shifted leftward) -> higher market price

Econ 101!

Wild speculation passed as fact 101.

The exact effects in supply and demand are extremely unpredictable.

[mobile4ever]

Hahaha. I am good with dollars, thanks. You can buy things with dollars, plus invest them in legitimate things. You can't buy anything with Bitcoin, and 90% of Bitcoin investments are a scam.

Did you know you can buy gold directly with bitcoin? (https://bitcoin.org.uk/forums/topic/384-new-bitcoin-for-gold-exchange)

Why would someone go to the hassle of converting USD into Bitcoin when they could go on amazon and buy any of that instantly with their credit card?

Because Bitcoin is an investment, one bitcoin will probably continue to buy more Amazon stuff because of that. Have you heard of the Gartner Hype Cycle?

If you want food or to pay your mortgage/rent, you still need to turn it into government backed currency.

plouf // Jun 29, 2011 at 2:25 pm

I paid my rent in bitcoins today.



This is the information era.

[ArticMine]

Like many of you, I hold a substantial number of Bitcoins. I am interested in seeing the value of those coins go up vs. the USD so that I can sell my coins for USD in future. For me, there's no other reason to have them.

I actually think that the more able members of our society have a duty to help the weaker members, so I don't have any weird libertarian fantasies. I'm just in it for the money. The actual, folding, bank account, Visa card money.

So how can we push the price of Bitcoin up so that we can sell our coins for more? As everyone knows, in order to increase prices we need to spike demand. So why would anyone want a Bitcoin?

When Silk Road became popular last year, everyone saw how it pushed up the price of Bitcoin. I haven't actually seen many people on this forum acknowledge the fact that Silk Road is driving the Bitcoin economy. There's simply not much else to buy with Bitcoins, and unless you are a currency speculator or a Bitcoin devotee there is no other reason to turn your government backed cash into Bitcoins.

I sold a lot of coins last summer, and I made over $100,000 clear profit from an initial $1000 investment, and that was from only about half of the coins I bought for that $1000. I still have the rest. I am sure a lot of you cashed out too, for even bigger profits.

I am sure that the increase in price that I profited so much from is down, mostly, to demand spurred on by Silk Road.

There is only one reason for a normal person to want a Bitcoin - to break rules, laws, and regulations. This is the future of Bitcoin, this is what will drive the price up, and I think this is what we should all be focusing on.

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts and ideas about this. I think that gambling in the USA is an untapped market but there may be other laws that we can help people break with Bitcoin too.

Bold my emphasis. A very large proportion of the world's population do not have a FICO score let alone a good one, credit cards or even a bank account. They are in fact the world's poor, and for them Bitcoin may well be the only alternative to cash or paying usurious service charges. So unless one criminalizes poverty there is a huge legal market for Bitcoin.

By the way online purchase is a horrible model for illegal drugs, particularly the highly addictive ones. How many heroin addicts are going to wait two weeks to get their fix in the mail? No they will buy from the local dealer for cash and go into the nearest dark alley to shoot up. Ditto for crack meth etc.

[ralree]

There is only one reason for a normal person to want a Bitcoin - to break rules, laws, and regulations. This is the future of Bitcoin, this is what will drive the price up, and I think this is what we should all be focusing on.

That is a bold assumption. It's like saying the only reason to enrich uranium is to build nuclear weapons.
Bitcoin has no intrinsic purpose - just properties. It's up to the people to use it for different things.

I think it's wrong to promote illegal activities to increase the value of bitcoin. The only exception is when the illegal is ethically pleasing.

Thus I am fixing this for you:

There is only one a reason for a normal person to want a Bitcoin - to overcome rules, laws, and regulations.

I'd add gain control of their own wealth to that list.  With infinite QE happening as we speak, keeping cash around is folly.  Not everyone involved in bitcoin is trying to circumvent laws and regulations, in the same way that not all people who hoard gold are trying to do so. 

[CharlieContent]

There is only one reason for a normal person to want a Bitcoin - to break rules, laws, and regulations.

That's not stated as an opinion. It's stated as a fact. And it's inflammatory. It's like me going to a Chevy forum and posting, "There is only one reason to own a Chevy, so you can get pulled out of the mud by a Ford."

Hahaha. You've misunderstood me. The Ford comment is a criticism of a Chevy. I'm not criticizing Bitcoin, quite the opposite. I am sorry you thought my comment was a derogatory one about something you feel strongly about. It wasn't. It was pointing out a strength, not a weakness. It's a shame you don't see it that way.

Besides, you stated yourself that you own Bitcoins. So are you normal? Do you only want to break rules, laws, and regulations? Oh right, you are the talented one that is making bank off of the scofflaws. Oh wait, now people have two reasons to use Bitcoin! Or maybe you didn't pay taxes on your alleged earnings, which would put you back in category one?

I don't think anyone who is currently involved in Bitcoins is normal by definition. It is a very, very niche thing that most people are completely unaware of. To even be aware of Bitcoins is unusual.

I'm not under the misapprehension that my Bitcoin profits are a reflection of any talent. I took a gamble with a thousand bucks and got very lucky indeed. The same with future profits.

I also don't really see hoarding Bitcoins in the hope of them raising in value as a "use"

I paid every penny I owed in taxes as I do with all the money I earn on investments, I have no idea why you are even floating the possibility that I might not have.

You also make several other inflammatory (trollish) statements:

There's nothing other than drugs to spend them on.

You can't buy anything with Bitcoin, and 90% of Bitcoin investments are a scam.

I'm suggesting that only those who wish to break a law, rule or regulation have a good reason to use bitcoin.

And I'm sure I can find more.

I said those things because I believe them, not to inflame your sensibilities. I don't have any interest or motive for getting you all riled up, and to be honest I'm surprised things have gone that way.

Guess what. I don't own Bitcoins in order to break laws. I don't use them to purchase drugs. And I've never been scammed using Bitcoins. So when I see these statements presented as fact, on a forum dedicated to Bitcoin, the only conclusion that I can come to is that you are a troll.

What exactly do you use them for?

Now, perhaps you are trying to have some legitimate discussion here. If so, perhaps you would have more success by being less inflammatory towards Bitcoin enthusiasts?

I'm not quite at the level of involvement to call myself a Bitcoin enthusiast myself, but I do have nothing but good things to say about them. I'm sorry that you are so pissed off by me stating that the vast majority of Bitcoin investment vehicles have turned out to be scams, and that there isn't anything to buy with them (other than drugs) that couldn't be bought more simply, with less risk of fraud and more easily with whatever the local currency is. If you find that inflammatory, it is a shame, because to me those are incontrovertible facts and putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "TROLL" isn't going to change that. For me a discussion takes place around the facts, not in denial of them.

[mobile4ever]

I'd add gain control of their own wealth to that list.  With infinite QE happening as we speak, keeping cash around is folly.  Not everyone involved in bitcoin is trying to circumvent laws and regulations, in the same way that not all people who hoard gold are trying to do so. 

Fiat money is designed to fail when not pegged to the value of something else. The value of the dollar was separated from the gold standard in 1971. How long does it have?


Bitcoin has value in itself. 

[bg002h]

Another good use was pointed out in the excellent TEDx talk (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115555.0):
the ultra poor -- those who have no means of establishing financial arrangements with banks and have no safe place to store their money -- could use Bitcoin not only as a bank but also as a global payment system. 

No doubt the cash like aspects of Bitcoin do encourage cash like use, especially in the same illegal ways cash is used; but to fail to see the global, society changing differences Bitcoin has from cash I think is short sighted.  Bitcoin is a bit more than drugs, porn, and guns.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Bitcoin has value in itself. 

If Bitcoin loses his decentralization it still will be valuable.

[bg002h]

What, technically, can be done to centralize Bitcoin? I mean, I can see how one could centralize the addition of new features, but, you can undo what's been done.  Bitcoin is Bitcoin...it's not like it can just suddenly become this completely non-anonymous, heavily fee based network via a central authority...everyone running the software would have to agree...

[CharlieContent]

One final note: You shouldn’t make stupid claims if you want to effectively sway others. “I sold a lot of coins last summer, and I made over $100,000 clear profit from an initial $1000 investment, and that was from only about half of the coins I bought for that $1000.” This is false unless you bought into btc well below a dollar (like mining with a cpu era) which you couldn’t have done since “last summer” or you have been playing the market which means in either case you shouldn’t need to be told all of this. It just makes you look like a liar and hurts your case.

This paragraph is baffling. My big profit came from coins I sold last summer. I didn't buy them last summer. At no point did I say that I bought them last summer. I did indeed buy into BTC when the price was a fraction of a dollar.

As for the rest, I thought your post was very well written, if slightly zealous, but I don't think anything you have said has any impact on my argument. You speak in rousing terms about young intelligent people getting together to start Bitcoin businesses. Where are they? Where are the successful Bitcoin businesses that aren't exchanges or money movers of some kind? The fact that the only legitimate successful businesses are in the business of moving Bitcoins from national currencies and back merely serves to underline the fundamentally auxiliary nature of Bitcoin.

Another good use was pointed out in the excellent TEDx talk (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115555.0):
the ultra poor -- those who have no means of establishing financial arrangements with banks and have no safe place to store their money -- could use Bitcoin not only as a bank but also as a global payment system.  

Someone else mentioned this type of thing earlier and I wanted to comment. Very cool thinking and it appeals to me a lot. Is anyone actually trying to put this into action?