The future of Bitcoin is illegal

[Jimmy Chang(y)]

Credit cards are just the easiest and safest way to buy things. You know it and I know it, so don't be ridiculous.

There are a whole class of people who can't get credit cards, for example young people, students (in Europe) who have no regular income. Poor people who are too poor to get even a bank account, in developing countries. Illegal immigrants who can't go to a bank where they live. People with bad or no credit rating, ...

The list can go on and on.

This is a sizable chunk of the market which is currently not served by regular credit card companies.

You'd be surprised at how EASY it is to get a credit card (in the UK atleast). Now try and get an over draft... well sir now that is difficult if your any of the above. If you have a name and adress you can pretty much get a credit card here, one of the reasons fraud is also such a big deal here.


As f

the average joe

The average joe, if they've ever heard of Bitcoin, have no idea what it is or how to use it.

The average joe don't buy drugs on SR either.  The number of computer geeks in the world outnumber the number of SR users many times, and how many computer illiterates know about SR at all?

Anyone who reads rolling stone regularly would have heard of silk road. Gavin Andresen is quoted in that article.

When the gawker article came out in 2011, a lot of news aggregators linked to it with  the same headline.....
"The underground website where you can buy any drug imaginable" or a more recent headline "Amazon.com for illegal drugs"

http://gawker.com/5805928/the-underground-website-where-you-can-buy-any-drug-imaginable
http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/amazon-com-for-illegal-drugs/

And there is word-of-mouth to spread the word.. which is part of the core culture of drug use. Help a brutha out.

How does the average joe participate? Through eBay sales. Joe isn't going to go through the trouble of signing up for an MtGox account. He's willing to pay as much as 50% over value to get bitcoins on ebay. The going rate is 30% over value. Of all the coins I have sold on eBay, the buyers are either holding on to them long term or they head directly to tumblers.

Based on sales and comments by buyers, I also assume that a group of people work through a tech savvy friend and coordinate/combine purchases. Also a core part of the drug culture.

Nothing new really except the guy who knows a guy is buying online and the price is a little higher but the options are greater. The casual user is you, your next door neighbor, your boss, your mom. If nothing else... Silk Road is a safer alternative than buying off the street.

Fully agree with this ^

Im your average Joe, found out about Bitcoins through Silk road from a friend, since then Ive told loads of people about Silk Road (I try bitcoins but being fairly computer illiterate by the standards here I dont do so well)

Id have to say for the time being atleast, bitcoins future is illegal.

My guess will be another Crypto currency will spring up, with a fresh start and be a little 'cleaner' if you get what I mean. Right now bitcoin has a pretty bad reputation and I dont really see it changing for a while.

Hell ive been here for about 5 months now lurking (kicking myself for not buying up big time back then) and ive gone from wanting to jump straight in to being alot more cautious. Why? Because the majority of the people using bitcoins seem to be computer nerds with a chip on their shoulder, the amount of scams, hacks and general chatter on this forum is a fairly big warning sign for someone like myself.

I see the potential and I loved the whole ideology aspect of bitcoin, but seems to me that died a while ago and what we have now is a rat race with rats alot more tech savy than myself, no thanks, for now atleast.

[FLHippy]

How does the average joe participate?

Nothing new under the sun. During the entire humankind history always criminals were the first to adopt every new technology. Should we stop developing new technologies just because of this fact?

The OP suggests that we should encourage it and find new illegal ways to use bitcoin. I agree. I also agree that shady dealings are the first to use new technology. The porn industry revolutionized delivery of video online. This is a great example of a shady business that could be convinced to deal in bitcoins that would benefit bit coin by increasing demand.

[stevegee58]

There is only one reason for a normal person to want a Bitcoin - to break rules, laws, and regulations...

Baloney.  That's the sort of reasoning behind Executive Order 6102 (Roosevelt's gold confiscation order).  I would argue that forward-thinking people seeking protection from economic collapse are looking at BTC as well as gold.  If some criminals are seeking tools to carry out their illegal activities then BTC will certainly be one of them.  But good old-fashioned USD greenbacks are the mainstay of illegal activity, not BTC.

[firefop]

Credit cards are just the easiest and safest way to buy things. You know it and I know it, so don't be ridiculous.

It is Bitcoin that seems to be held (by some) with such divine reverence that to even mention that it has some shortcomings is blasphemy here.

Also, to describe me as a critic of Bitcoin is an unfair and inaccurate characterization. I am a Bitcoin supporter. I just have a more realistic view than most.

I wouldn't go so far as to call you a critic. But if you think the point of bitcoin is to compete with credit cards... then you've really just missed the idea entirely. The entire issue with credit cards, chargebacks and selling online is "fraud prevention". Businesses (especially small business) hate the risk involved with accepting credit cards. The potential for the business owner to be left holding the bag on a bad transaction are huge.

One of the main reason that btc will gain traction vs credit is that you can't do any sort of chargeback. It removed 90% of the risk involved for the vendor. Yes, currently there may be more risk relative to the floating price of btc - but that becomes less of a concern as it gets more users and becoming more commonly accepted.

Before you discount this idea see american express... they came late to the card market and they charge higher fees (yearly) than most credit cards and they penetrated (and now dominate) the card market based solely on being a non-credit card.

[Severian]

Credit cards are just the easiest and safest way to buy things. You know it and I know it, so don't be ridiculous.

That's both an unfounded assertion and a logical fallacy combined. Congrats.

[CharlieContent]

Credit cards are just the easiest and safest way to buy things. You know it and I know it, so don't be ridiculous.

That's both an unfounded assertion and a logical fallacy combined. Congrats.

Please explain to me which online payment method is easier and safer than credit cards. If you say "Bitcoin" then you are as dumb as a sack of rocks.

[Severian]

If you say "Bitcoin" then you are as dumb as a sack of rocks.

Ad hominem also. At least you're batting .1000.

Count me as unswayed by your argument.

[CharlieContent]

But if you think the point of bitcoin is to compete with credit cards... then you've really just missed the idea entirely.

My entire point is that Bitcoin can't compete with credit cards and shouldn't try. You are preaching to the choir here, you should raise this point to the oddball "end the fed" Libertarians and assorted "global economic collapse is coming" tin foil hatted whackos participating in this thread who preach the bizarre and unhelpful dogma that Bitcoin is the future of all payment and currency.

One of the main reason that btc will gain traction vs credit is that you can't do any sort of chargeback. It removed 90% of the risk involved for the vendor.

And puts 100% of the risk on to the consumer. You think consumers are going to stand for that? Especially when dealing with small businesses who don't have a strong brand? Not a chance.

[CharlieContent]

Ad hominem also. At least you're batting .1000.

Count me as unswayed by your argument.

Count me as unaware of your argument, since you have decided not to make any point at all other than to put your fingers in your ears and say "You are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong" over and over again.

Also, that is not an ad hominem attack. An ad hominem attack would be "You are as dumb as a sack of rocks, so you must be wrong."

You seem very convinced of your ability to determine whether an argument is logically sound or not. I can only assume that means you are also confident of your ability to construct one. I would be delighted to hear it. I'd be very surprised too, because you haven't contributed in a remotely substantial way as of yet.

[RodeoX]

...
Credit cards are just the easiest and safest way to buy things. You know it and I know it, so don't be ridiculous.
...

I would have to disagree about that. Bitcoin is way easier than a credit card.

[CharlieContent]

...
Credit cards are just the easiest and safest way to buy things. You know it and I know it, so don't be ridiculous.
...

I would have to disagree about that. Bitcoin is way easier than a credit card.

In what way? I can understand that it is equally easy to make a credit card payment as it is to make a Bitcoin payment if you already own coins, but if you don't hold any coins then it is a much more convoluted procedure.

[kjj]

Credit cards are just the easiest and safest way to buy things. You know it and I know it, so don't be ridiculous.

That's both an unfounded assertion and a logical fallacy combined. Congrats.

Please explain to me which online payment method is easier and safer than credit cards. If you say "Bitcoin" then you are as dumb as a sack of rocks.

I have to say, bitcoin is much easier than credit cards for online payments.  You can skip the "billing address" part entirely, since that is just used to reduce credit card fraud.  And if your purchase doesn't involve a physical delivery, you can skip the shipping address too.  For ephemeral things, it really is as easy as sending the coins and getting the download link.

Safer, however, is a whole different story.  Bitcoin is irreversible, so if the seller doesn't deliver, you can get screwed.  Credit cards payments can pretty much always be reversed, which is great for buyers.  Also, the worst that can happen if the credentials get stolen is that you have the annoyance of cancelling the old card and getting a new one.

So, neither one of them is both "safer" and "easier", they are split.

[CharlieContent]

I have to say, bitcoin is much easier than credit cards for online payments.  You can skip the "billing address" part entirely, since that is just used to reduce credit card fraud.  And if your purchase doesn't involve a physical delivery, you can skip the shipping address too.  For ephemeral things, it really is as easy as sending the coins and getting the download link.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't already hold coins (99.99999999% of the population.) Do you still think making a Bitcoin payment is easier?

[kjj]

I have to say, bitcoin is much easier than credit cards for online payments.  You can skip the "billing address" part entirely, since that is just used to reduce credit card fraud.  And if your purchase doesn't involve a physical delivery, you can skip the shipping address too.  For ephemeral things, it really is as easy as sending the coins and getting the download link.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't already hold coins (99.99999999% of the population.) Do you still think making a Bitcoin payment is easier?

This is just an accident of history, not a consequence of the design of either system.  If that was a requirement, credit cards wouldn't have taken off, nor would paper money, nor gold.  These are all things that no one had, once.

[CharlieContent]

Again, you aren't playing fair. Start both scenarios from scratch and you might have an argument.

Someone going from having no credit card to making an online purchase with a credit card.

Someone going from having no Bitcoins to making an online purchase with Bitcoins.

Now it's certainly not as clear cut as you want to have us believe.

Yes, but we aren't starting both scenarios from scratch, are we? I am talking about the real world, as it is now. Not a thought experiment with a level playing field.

[CharlieContent]

Bitcoin won't always be new and niche. Obviously it hasn't reached it's full potential, and may not for years or decades to come. If you refuse to look at it's potential uses, in my opinion you are selling yourself short.

Let's put a kindergartener up against a professional athlete and see which one is better at sports! OK, great. Pro wins this round. Now let's redo the competition 20 years later when the newbie is full strength and the pro is nursing his worn out body.

I suppose you aren't interested in the future, regardless of the title of your thread.

Many of us here feel that Bitcoin has properties that make it superior to many existing systems. And those properties extend well beyond your black market uses, even if it is extremely well suited for that also!

As a parting note, you claim many of us have our fingers in our ears, but from my point of view, you are the one refusing to acknowledge things when they don't jive with your line of thinking.

I've definitely acknowledged things that have changed my point of view in this thread. One of them is the idea that Bitcoin can be used to empower disenfranchised residents of the third world who have been excluded from banking by giving them access to a payment system. I think in practice though that would create a two tier system and I wouldn't like to speculate on the implications of that. If anyone does move a project like that forward I think it would be very interesting, and I'll definitely be watching out for it in the future.

I think your kindergartener vs. pro athlete analogy is a little flawed. It severely understates how primitive Bitcoin is compared to the global financial system. I think it would be closer to compare it to some type of microorganism vs. a pro athlete. A bacteria is never going to beat a star quarterback, but it could evolve and change, over a very long time, into something that is good at playing a totally different game.

If we are making parting comments, I'll say this: I am very disappointed that so many people have interpreted my views as criticism of Bitcoin, and even more disappointed at the people who have accused me of trolling.

One guy said "Get over it Charlie, Bitcoins have a bright future."

It's sad that he probably will never understand that we agree wholeheartedly on that point, it's just a different type of bright future than he envisages.

[mobile4ever]

There is only one reason for a normal person to want a Bitcoin - to break rules, laws, and regulations...

Baloney.  That's the sort of reasoning behind Executive Order 6102 (Roosevelt's gold confiscation order).  I would argue that forward-thinking people seeking protection from economic collapse are looking at BTC as well as gold.  If some criminals are seeking tools to carry out their illegal activities then BTC will certainly be one of them.  But good old-fashioned USD greenbacks are the mainstay of illegal activity, not BTC.

The Google CEO said:


If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.


If having gold is considered criminal, bitcoin isnt?


For those who are worried about Google, please see your defense. (http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/)  

[Buffer Overflow]

The Google CEO said:


If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.


If having gold is considered criminal, bitcoin isnt?


For those who are worried about Google, please see your defense. (http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/)  

I would use Tor all the time if it wasn't so frustratingly slow.

[The_Duke]

Bitcoin won't always be new and niche.

FTFY.

[firefop]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2053520&page=1#.UHVVAGMk5_M

well maybe not a quarterback...