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http://bitcoinmagazine.net/butterfly-labs-releases-more-asic-photos/

http://bitcoinmagazine.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/1-IMG_1562-602x537.jpg

Awesome! Can't wait to get mine!

EDIT: Here is the other pic for those that are too lazy to click the link
https://i.imgur.com/ehayS.png

  :'(

Damn... I guess late October was never going to happen.

neither is november or december..

I highly doubt November will happen. I was beat to the punch.

Is there any way to tell what process was used to make the device just from pictures? 130nm?

The physical package dimensions won't really tell you anything  :-\

That's what I figured. Although, I was only guessing because I know next to nothing about the subject.

It's becoming interesting.

Nice :)

Looking like an incredibly elaborate long-con now ;)

It's either smaller than I expected or the hand model is a giant.

I'm putting this in a server room.  It will be around several 60db+ fans.

BFL, please allow me to increase it to the maximum safe non-quiet mode.

ASICs look like RAM chips on an 8GB DDR3 module lol.

Based on the standard stacking connector size, de board seems to be 70x70 mm.

interesting, to put it lightly.

It's small

This is what I'll be tracking. Reminds me of the old governors we had to put on cars that could go faster but weren't allowed.
Hack.

Oh for fucks sake.

If it gets delayed anymore the SC is going to be allocated as "Andrew's Christmas present" by the Mrs

O.o

lol?

You do realize that both the word "chip" in "RAM chip" and the "IC" in "ASIC" mean Integrated Circuit, don't you.
And as they are both integrated circuits, it is not really surprising (or humorous) that they look similar when soldered onto a board.


Nah, from the shade of gray I'd say it's most probably 65nm.

Wow. Just wow.
The level of ignorance on this Forum sometimes astounds me.

They're friggen dark grey squares with no markings, how the hell is anyone supposed to determine the technology used.
(X-ray vision does not work over the Interwebs.)

If the parts were even ever marked at some point (and early engineering samples often are not) you can be sure that BFL would have sanded the markings off like they did with the Atratix chips in their previous generation products.

And yes, I know it's "Stratix", not "Atratix", I just find it funny how people have been quoting the original typo without ever realizing it.

I don't know that's all I was asking? Don't have a holy-fucking-shit-coniption. I've just heard a lot of talk about "I wonder what technology they're gonna use?" and was just wondering if there is a way to tell other than hooking the fuckers up to a computer or something. That's all, get it? The question was answered immediately after I asked it. Just sayin'

or Valentine's Day.

I can't wait for my singles to arrive anymore, thanks for posting the pics.

it looks nice. i like the heatpipes and copper. I see one connector for fans on the front (on bfl website) and 1 pin on the backside that may belong to another fan connector (i know they are not called "fan connector", 3pin connector? whatev). i really hope those are meant for the sc minirig, because otherwise i assume they are planned for cooling the single actively.

If not 60watt seem legit for a cooler that size. Hm..

Woohoo pics!  Thanks.

according to http://bitcoinmagazine.net/butterfly-labs-releases-more-asic-photos/ (http://bitcoinmagazine.net/butterfly-labs-releases-more-asic-photos/) and looking at the picture of an single bfl shwos on there website, i see there must be some "air" above the cooler.
comparing heigth vs length (74mm vs 98mm) there must be like 2/3 of it made of air (speaking of the heigth). more than enough space for a fan.
But maybe they just like to build something similiar lookin to their fpga, wasting space for no use at all. Whats it gonna be?

I think it's about 30Gh for one board if they are using 65nm, or 60Gh preboard if they are using 40nm.
And i think there must be another heat sink at the backside of the board.

So you suppose a low nanometer product, this would agree with a low power usage, do you think their estimates to be possible?

The heatsink your looking at is the one currently used on the FPGA Single (they have not updated the pic as of yet to an image of a ASIC ),which consumed 80 watts & was designed for a 72F enviroment.

But they may be able use something similar on the ASIC,just beefed up a little to allow it to operate in an environment of 90F this time.

my estimates all based on their announced specifications. it's a backward induction.

a major issue is the FPGA they are using (e.g. Altera S3) is a flip-chip package. and their ASIC is low cost wire-bond QFN. this package glue the DIE to the metal GND pad at the bottom. the θJb (to board)is low but the θJt (to top) is high. so it won't work whatever you do from the top.

my question is, as a ASIC developer too, i will prepare everything before our chip comes back, and will know if it work or not in a few hours test. now there are well assembled board pictures, but still no testing data.

why? ???

Just as a side note, the board is 92mm X 92mm.

Regards,
Nasser

To build suspense in us doe eyed fools???  :D

Here is a full-sized side by side wallpaper  ;D.

http://www.anonmgur.com/up/746d0a6ba54410ec39c8209abd266dc1.jpg

... and the hand in the OP is fake right ...
Photoshop FTW :)

Was it scaled correctly or is that one a little off?

The 2nd post looks real, but I think the 1st hand is a Photoshop.

Edit: the thumb shadow gives it away :)

Yeah, that was one of the first things I noticed too. They've basically got the entire thickness of the plastic chip package insulating their die from the heatsink that's meant to be cooling it.

And that's the other one. At this point I don't even believe major hardware manufacturers who show off pretty boards without bothering to mention little details like whether they actually work; NVidia famously pulled off a similar stunt, for instance.

Do my eyes decieve me, but does ASIC chip 4 (1st on second row) look like its bulged out?
 
POP!

Those ASICS look like a square piece of black duct tape lol

other than the weird bulged out one.. they look great but do they work?

With a bulge that big I doubt it. It wouldn't mate evenly with the HeatSink.

Might be a defective board they are holding in front of the camera.

Would be impressive if they were using 40 nm, but I somehow doubt it. The main reason being that it means there isn't much room to grow. As a company BFL would want to have room to lower the die size in order to make 'next-gen' ASICs that can run faster, cooler, and more efficiently. Unless they are gambling on there only being 1 generation of ASICs...

Late November or December huh?  Makes me wish I had enough BTC to hedge my bets with Tom, so no matter who delivers first, I can get in before difficulty shoots sky high.

Now if only they would post a screenshot of it actually mining...

This seems legit to me. I don't see wood screws anywhere.

It looks like all of the ASIC products will be built around the same board, populated differently. This raises a question: since the ASIC in the Jalapeño is significantly underclocked to keep power consumption down, would it be feasible to add in some of the power-supply components of the other models and a heatsink to get the Jalapeño running at the full 7.5 GH/s that the chip can deliver?

 late November or December. ? why so late?

Hardware hacks are bound to show up soon after devices are delivered :)

It will just depends on the network difficulty if it will be worth the time and effort to try to OC the coffee warmer.

Nice screenshots, now we need a working prototype ;)

Bulged? Looks like they've been 'shopped to remove any manufacturer markings.

Thats what I was thinking when I first say the pics, the smudged out the markings on the chips.

There is another photo with the device pictured on another angle. It is the same chip with the same bulge.

Got a link?

We should call it....BulgeGate!

A revolutionary 3D processor from BFL. [/joke/]

---------------------

Hopefully it is a manufacturing defect they actually noticed. Ever seen what happens when a heat-sink doesn't make good contact with the chips...totally fried. I hope they do visual inspections before final assembly.

If I had to take a stab at this configuration, I would say that a Single SC is actually comprised of 2 of those fully populated boards (each with 8 ASICs). Note the little off-white connectors on the board marked "Chain In" and Chain Out" which alludes to daisy chaining these little suckers (maybe just for the rig, but maybe not).

That would put a Little Single with 8 ASICs, which would be 3.75 GH/s per an ASIC. This is around what the Jalapeño is specced to run. They may be able to overclock it because they have less overall heat to dissipate with only 1 ASIC.

1 board per device, with the exception of the Minirig, which has 24.

Actually my mistake, the bulge pic was rotated.

Could be camera angle.. Could be a Photoshop job to remove something.. most likely, it's damage from someone not following MSD procedures.  Looks like typical popcorn damage.

Or it could be that it was an early sample where someone stuck an oscilloscope probe where they shouldn't have and shorted something out.  Not that I have any experience with doing that...

BFL, I will say one thing, the layout is pretty elegant.  Nice job.

24boards x 60GHs/board = 1440GH/s = 1.44TH/s. Maybe they OC them a little bit to get to 1.5TH/s, or maybe the Singles run slightly higher than 60GH/s? 62.5GH/s would give them 1.5TH/s with 24 boards.

The theoretical max performance of a fully populated card is 128 GH/s.  It's highly unlikely that we'll ever get close to that peak performance.  Nevertheless, there's quite a bit of margin left above the 60 GH/s mark...   some of which is being enjoyed in the Mini Rig configuration of the card.

 :o  WOW  :o

So maybe faster firmware,like the FPGA single,later on  8)

I would hope it's just something as simple as adjusting the clock rate, like configuring a GPU.

http://i46.tinypic.com/m7fb6p.jpg

So the actual max is not 1Ghz but closer to 1.1Ghz.

With a max draw per chip of about 16 watts.

[Speculation]

If we go by what we do know....then a mini-rig has 192 chips (24 fully populated boards).

Each Chip runs at 7.8125Gh/s.
Consuming just under 8 watts per chip.

7.8125 X 8 = 62.5 Gh/s per module.

Each boards draws about 62.5 watts X 24 boards = 1500 watts

Not including fans and a few other devices with marginal draw. (hence their power supply is 1650watt if I recall correctly.

Edit: Assuming a mini-rig board is about 100mm between boards and is distributed at even distances of 3 x 4 into 2 separate stacks. It should occupy somewhere around 1' depth x 2 feet height and about 8 inches width.

Or roughly the size of a full tower computer case. (well minus the radiator if they use the water cooling techniques.)

Hmm - would be good to see a Clock command in the firmware spec.

( Though last time I mentioned that quite a while ago, someone wasn't too happy about my wording ... )

I've just been playing with clock adjustments on the MMQ I got - was actually quite interesting in my opinion

Of course being able to adjust the Clock also requires some well defined specifications of the device limitations and performance and being able to accurately measure temperature
Though when devices hash 100x faster than they do now, it means dealing with the limitations properly is extremely important.

Anyway - we'll find out when the info comes out for each of the ASIC's what options there are with this sort of thing ...

It's interesting times ahead for sure, cannot wait any longer now. All this information makes me want to have my singles now ;).

I am happy and alot more confident now that we are gonna start getting our orders in the next couple weeks and it hasn't all just been a massive scam.

any live demonstrations of the chip working or mining at this time?

Not likely

Looks nice.  :)

Waiting for my jalapeño.  ;D

Next couple weeks huh?  I hope you're right, but I fear you're way off, especially with the new announcement of shipping dates being November/December.

I wonder what the ARM place holder is for ? how could an ARM chip benefit the board ?

https://i.imgur.com/UTEvKh.jpg

Source: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/190-More-board-pics

You thieved it from BFL's own forum, you thief :)

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/190-More-board-pics

Add a network jack and some ram and you'd be able to have a low power standalone miner --- maybe?

can someone re-up the new pics? I cannot view them on the BFL forum as I havn't signed up

That would work if the board had place holders for those additional things, but it does not so it would need a board re-design, which makes it pointless placing an ARM holder on the current board.

http://i49.tinypic.com/svgsch.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/33zcu1s.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/28bhdft.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/ibf9fn.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/30hwuf5.jpg

Courtesy of: www.butterflylabs.com

Thanks Puerto

Maybe one board, the one with ARM MCU soldered, will act as main controller or super controller in mining rig with all the other boards daisy chained.

Perfect! Thanks for the pics Puerto.

So do you suppose they intend to use that reflow oven to add the needed chips to those boards?

what are the chances they could rework the bitstream on the Altera to drive an Ethernet or WiFi shield attached to one or both of those minirig-sc ports?

It does seem interesting to have that ARM label there in what seems to be a very logically thought out board otherwise.

Has anyone seen the back side of the board?  High speed DDR is often soldered right behind the processor..

And..

http://i46.tinypic.com/2rzew5v.jpg

Something like this...
https://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/images/products/7/1/6/00716-02.jpg

Updated wallpaper  :Phttp://www.anonmgur.com/up/7661fe8d83daafadb0eeb88853ec80b3.jpg

Nice one ;).

On topic: I like the formfactor very much on these PCBs. Easy to cool.

It is the same form factor as the current FPGA Singles.

The ASICs themselves appear to have a plastic top; not the most efficient thermal interface to a top-mounted metal heatsink. Although 7W/chip isn't huge, the combination of 8 of them in close proximity generates a lot of concentrated heat. Transferring 60W from plastic chips to a metal heatsink can be a challenge.

Also, mounting a monolithic heatsink across 8 separate chips poses another challenge: if those chips are not coplanar, the contact between the heatsink and some of the chips will not be 'perfect'; the gap will be taken up by the thermal transfer compound which would further restrict thermal conductivity.

The good news is that the SC Single uses less power than the FPGA Single, which will mitigate the situation a bit. Plus, the 8 ASIC chips, though plastic, have an overall larger surface area then the 2 metal-top FPGAs in the old Singles. More surface area makes it easier to transfer heat.

So all in all I don't think cooling these will be an issue; I'm sure BFL has already thought of all this and they have plenty of experience with the FPGA Singles. The SC board is 92mmx92mm, so it seems clear from the mounting holes that BFL will continue to use a standard 92mm fan for cooling.

The pics with Henrietta are taken with my 5DMk2, though I scale them down for the web of course.

We actually agonized a lot over the plastic issue and went through scenario after scenario due to specifically that fact.  There a bunch of vias on the bottom of the board, and we were originally going to cool it from the bottom instead of the top, but simulation after simulation showed it was more effective from the top, so that's what we went with.  But the vias are still there for a bit of extra oomph when the clock rate is bumped up.

There's a pic of the back of the board on the BFL forums.

This is the very reason why most RAM chips you see use Termal Pads, rathern than a compound. Any possibility that pads would be used instead of compound, or would 60W be too much for them?

It may be worthwhile putting a passive heatsink on the bottom as well to give the device more thermal headroom. Some/most/all of my FPGA Singles have this (some also have a small fan at the bottom).

I do hope it does not become necessary to put a small fan at the bottom of the board; the FPGA Singles that have it can be very/too loud and makes it impossible to create a 'quiet Single' by replacing the top main fan only. And since the ASICs will likely not be 'under-clockable', we would be limited in how far we can reduce airflow to reduce noise (the FPGA Singles can be loaded with slower firmware to reduce thermal output; not so with ASICs unfortunately).

I suspect we won't really know the answer to this until BFL has had a chance to run these things at full load in an actual enclosure.

It's not always easy to find something there, so the link is: the back of the board (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101&d=1350918681)

Have to login to view =[

What passive heatsink are you using on the bottom?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100662.msg1105307#msg1105307

 ;) ;D :D

Many of the shipping FPGA Singles have a passive heatsink on the bottom already. I was just suggesting that  a similar approach could be taken (by BFL) for the SC Singles.

If the boards are already made, and asics already placed, something like this would probably be enough:

http://www.acousticpc.com/images/a_thermaltake_cl0025_bga_ram_copper_coolers.jpg


What'd be ideal is if these were almost exactly the same height as the space between bottom of board to enclosure, so that if the thermal adhesive proves not to be reliable, at least the heatsinks will be kept in place (not a bunch of copper pieces shaking around and contacting the board).

Would it be possible to solder something like this to the board before the ASIC chips are placed?

http://iforce.co.nz/i/zfhosr2z.v0s.jpg

Here we go.

http://i45.tinypic.com/34g6lhh.jpg
Courtesy of: www.butterflylabs.com

Pictures with the pig with wings to indicate that we'll get them ... when pigs fly?  ???

I actually find this hard to believe since the footprint of your ASIC looks to have a pad on the bottom for grounding and thermal dissipation (often called a heat slug). Usually the thermal conductivity to this pad is much higher than to the plastic case (I think I saw that ngzhang also mentioned this somewhere). Also, if you hadn't tented the vias on the bottom you'd get a higher thermal conduction to your heatsink (soldermask tends to be a thermal insulator).

Is this a 6 layer pcb?

I'm guessing that they put down that footprint to support a standalone miner eventually. Since there is starting to be plenty of mining software support for ARM processors (I'm mining on my Raspberry Pi currently), it wouldn't take much to run a light version on linux on-board the ARM processor to act as the controller.

That's what I keep thinking.  If the ships are not perfectly level, you're other going to crush them with the heatsink, or you're going to not have good contact with all of them.

Why not just use these little guys?

Good point- I cringe just thinking of copper scraping up against the case...  causing some non-loctite-coated screw to come loose or something  :P
Even if there were something insulating them (like eight non-electrically conductive thermal pads placed on the enclosure), it'd be a bad idea to have that tight a fit on a first run.

During the first production run, maybe it's best to just stick with the thermal adhesive copper heatsinks (<--pun) that may or may not fall off over time.
If BFL doesn't install them, I will do so on mine  ;D

Haha, seeks like a little bit overkill but thanks for the idea ;).


True that, hopefully BFL will do a similiar approach. But its always nice to have a backup plan if they don't ;).

We should be keeping the price paied in mind when it comes to what kind of fan/heatsink/case combo they come up with. I'd like my money on the heatsink.
i dont NEED a case, And i Can replace a fan..., Dont know how the hell i'd get a new BFL heatsink

I think they should go all the way and design a controller. Something like 16 USB ports of something crazy. Then jut arm and 256mb of ram. Then code some really basic Linux onto it and a ssh server. Then you can remote control it. Or scratch that. A device that supports daughter boards. Then you could buy 1 chip daughter boards,2 chip daughter boards etc etc etc.   

https://i.imgur.com/A3any.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/sIvAm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3RUEI.jpg

Stolen from https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/251-More-Jalapeno-Pictures-amp-Shipping-Update

Very simplistic looking design.  Pretty.

Nice pics. I will feel more comfortable when they have an ASIC chip working though :/

Cool pic, now just add chips.

I'm pretty sure the Jalapeno will only have the one chip pictured...  Not sure how it will be cooled though...

We don't need silly pictures, we need a demonstration of the chip doing the actual hashing! even if it is an early prototype with a few percent less performance!

Guess what, they don't have one.

Ah I see. As an employee, you must have intimate knowledge of their processes to make such an astute statement, correct?

Oh, what's that? You don't work for the company? Instead, you have felt the need to add nothing of importance to the current conversation?  ::)
Yeah, that makes more sense...

He doesn't have to be an employee of BFL to regurgitate information that has been made public knowledge. Now stop being an ass.

They have said it will just be passively cooled.

Too bad the little butterfly logo doesn't light up.

If I remember right they said that the casing would be the heatsink.

Yeah, you're probably right. I'm just tired of hearing the saaaammmeeeee thing in every thread I read.  :(

Nasser's other boards: https://www.elance.com/samples/Nasser750gx/gallery/

The brains behind BFL, it would seem.

How do you suppose he hooked up with them?

Craigslist.

Wanted: ASIC designer.  Apply within.

Aha! Now we know why chip production is behind schedule. You bought your chip designer on craigslist!  ;D :P

I'm just joking and mean no offence to Nasser!

Where do you buy these kind of heatsinks and what are they called?  I have a feeling I'm going to need some.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835708009

We just need to find out the dimensions of the package BFL is using for their ASIC...

Just measure them. You know the board is 92mmx92mm, count pixels.

11mm^2

didn't take long for Inaba to count the pixels  :P

Is that the die size? Or is the package 11x11?

Package size.  Do I get half a bounty?

I wish BFL had used ceramic packaging instead of plastic. How much more can mil-spec ASIC's cost?  ;)

Just out of curiosity, suppose we get our boards and you guys upgrade your chips a year later.  Would it be possible to just do chip swaps?  Pop off the old one and insert the new, smaller, faster one?

If this were intended, the chips would be socketed.

Yeah, and with a nice slab of copper in the middle of the socket  ;D

I'm still trying to imagine how to cool the bottom side of these chips.  If there are no traces directly under the ASIC chip, I'd like to cut a square hole under each chip and get at least some copper down there... The hole size would be limited by pressure on the ASIC being applied from the HSF on the top side.   The bottom heatsink could simply be a small square about the height of the board's depth above a larger square that adheres flush with board, and with some fins beneath.  It'd be like a 2 level pyramid with fins on bottom.

This is just my best guess for how I'd modify things on the board if I could magically change the existing design.

Copper island and vias can transfer as much as 30% of heat from the chip on the other side of the PCB. Just add heatsinks on the other side.

That is NOT an area of 11mm^2 (3.1x3.1mm), it must be 11x11mm.

Area on these bad boys (package, not die) is 121mm^2 if they are 11x11.

@ bce

I would think that if you start cutting on the circuit board you will void the warranty.

I counted pixels and arrived at the same conclusion:

Like Inaba said: (11mm)^2
lol

I'm just curious as to why the sub script isn't used: 11²

Now thats funny  8)

Oh Hai!

A ^superscript and _subscript feature, doh.

Thanks for the remedial forums training ;)

I C I got it erred. TY4 fixing.

I would be more worried about voiding the functionality of the ASICs than the warranty on the board...  If only I could get some blank boards to mess with  :).  I'm sure everyone will be careful with their SC singles when they first arrive, but it's only a matter of time before people try some modifications.  

I've got a couple of 5870s with stock VRM / RAM cooling and arctic cooling heatsinks.... running very cool all around - a hacksaw job that is definitely not warrantied, but running whisper quiet at 1000MHz  ;D.   I'll miss the days of the GPU in bitcoin mining.

god dammit... i'm wearing that shirt RIGHT NOW. *shame*

Where do I get this shirt? I've got to own one.

Yeah, Dremel was what I was thinking too!   I've already got the desoldering string, iron, and a little bit of experience successfully reflowing a board with a heat gun heh.  Check check and check.  I'll probably need to wait until I get all 3 of my SC Singles before experimenting though.    I'd love to see some pictures of those singles  ;D!

http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/8f52/

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=i%20void%20warranties%20t%20shirt&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ai%20void%20warranties%20t%20shirt

http://www.digitalmilitia.com/i-void-warranties-shirt.php

http://www.zazzle.com/i_void_warranties_t_shirt_customized-235061179862162575

 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Copernic is the bomb,most of the time  8)

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Pretty sure it doesn't need that?  It's not a communications device...

It verifies communications in the bitcoin network and can be used to relay communication in the form of binary messages in the form of multiple bitcoin transactions  ;)

In the US, all products containing electronics that oscillate above 9 kHz must be certified.
This device is being sold by a manufacturer located in Missouri? or maybe WYoming?  which last I check was in the US.

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

Interesting!  My new tidbit of knowledge for the day then...

.

*clapclap*
Now if only you had posted as BFL_josh so that people would take it seriously instead of sheeple going "unnnnn me no liek inaba, he lie in post"

Can we assume that all the products will be UL Listed/Approved? http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/contactus/faq/industries/retailer/

Does that mean you have a functioning prototype you sent to the test lab?

The most recent Jalapeño pictures to surface at the BFL forum show what look like two USB ports on the back. Would it be correct to assume that one is for power and data and the other is for more power?

They are both for power, BFL stated. Just in case your computer isn't able to supply enought power trough one single USB port.

MrTeal, you're an idiot! We all know that a physical working unit is not required. Only a sketch rendering the finish product.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2jPxoZVaG6o/TZobjypM_YI/AAAAAAAABTU/9oJnG-qOswg/s1600/155.jpg

But seriously, excellent question.

~Bruno K~

Read the thread, they were.

Wasn't it decided that these pics, while exciting, were still not of a functional unit as they are waiting on the asic chips?

Yes, still not functional, cases/side skirts and asic chips are not delivered yet, boards not produced.

That's simply impossible, for the FCC has one and BFL should be getting approval in a couple weeks. Make that two, for UnderwriterLabs (UL) has one also so that it'll be UL Listed/Approval. Now quit spreading FUD. The same process will apply for the other rigs as well, up to and including the $29K one.

Image the conversation at UL when that big ass rig arrives.

UL Guy 1: What the heck do we have here?
UL Guy 2: Never seen anything like it. Ready to plug it in?
UL Guy 1: I'm not pluggin' it in. You plug it in.
UL Guy 2: Fuck you, man! Hey! I got an idea. Let's get Mikey.
UL Guy 1: Yea, Mikey! He'll plug in anything.
UL Guy 1 & UL Guy 2 (in unison): Hey, Mikey!
UL Guy 2: Wait a second! We don't have to plug it in.
UL Guy 1: Why not?
UL Guy 2: Don't you see? It don't have an FCC sticker, so we don't have to inspect it.
UL Guy 1: Great! Send it back to the girls over at Butterfly Labs.
UL Guy 2: What I would give to watch one of their hot babes on the assembly line.

My mistake. I thought they had boards/samples, but were still waiting on the chips. Oops.

I love this. Take a look at the current Single's heatsink:

https://i.imgur.com/4Eu8B.jpg

It was later upgraded to this heatsink setup:

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Rev_3_hashing.png

Those dinky little heatsinks were originally only supposed to dissipate 20 Watts, but had to be upgraded to handle the actual heat output of 80 Watts. Now, they're actually designing a proper heatsink for the 60Watts they know the Single will draw. Pics from http://bitcoinmagazine.net/bfl-confirms-65nm-process-for-sc-lineup/ :

http://bitcoinmagazine.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/c.jpg
http://bitcoinmagazine.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/copp.jpg

I can see why they say that heat will no longer be an issue for these.

Just remember to peel off the label before you stick it to something.

The label backing seems a bit OTT, though.

There better not be a heat issue when they've got those sexy heatsinks on the boards :P

Looking super cool.. is this a custom heatsink build for them?

Underestimating customer stupidity is a common mistake. They've apparently learned their lesson already.

Bwahaha..sad, but very true!

Off/
Back in the days of s.478 a friend of mine installed the cooling with the plastic cover without even notice it. I spend some time looking for the problem why a new PC is shutdown before I can get to BIOS

Depends on how level the 8 chips are ...

Is it just me or does the size of this hand look funky?

https://i.imgur.com/4Eu8B.jpg

http://www.atmel.com/tools/AVRBUTTERFLY.aspx?tab=overview

http://www.atmel.com/Images/Butterfly.jpg

Can someone from BFL please clarify if at this moment their ASICs are packaged and delivered to the US?

That is unlikely.

First of all, the label on the heat sink says "Please remove label before you use it." This is bad English... I am assuming they are made in china.

Heat sinks come in so many different shapes and sizes, it doesn't make sense to me for them to spend the extra dough to create a custom heat sink.

"Josh Zerlan, a BFL representative, expects to have chips in hand by the end of November and begin initial shipments shortly after."
http://bitcoinmagazine.net/bfl-confirms-65nm-process-for-sc-lineup/

And we finally have confirmed that BFL is the winner in the process size category. 65nm sounds pretty sweet to me.

Once process sizes are confirmed, it will be interesting to compare actual efficiencies (J/Hash) - to me, the winner will be the one who used best and smartest engineering to get the most bang for the buck.  This should also translate into highest profitability for the manufacturer, assuming everyone offers similar price per Hash/s.

I'm surprised that BFL didn't get better efficiency than they did. Just going from 90nm to 65nm should double efficiency, right? Then where's the additional advantage of using the full custom approach? I'm comparing with the current power estimate of the bASIC.

The 1w/gh is a conservative estimate.  They are expecting lower power usage than that.

I wouldn't call +/- 10% a conservative estimate.

It's not just the fabrication process size that matters. The implementation of the hardware is a huge factor.

How would you call it ?

A brave estimate.

An accurate estimate? Something like +0/-30% would be a conservative estimate.

If you think the 54 GH/s ASIC is going to pull only 100w, I have a bridge to sell in Brooklyn as well.  The 27 GH/s units might be around 100w, though.

They are custom designed by BFL.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117403.0

fucccckkkk I really wish my investor listened to me when i said "PREORDER THEM NOW PLEASE?!" because now he just goes "theres not enough ROI in it for me at this point to invest"
I only got like a #11k preorder

Yep, so why do we only see the 2x "die shrink" advantage in these power estimates and nothing else? Where's the additional efficiency gain of going full custom? Shouldn't the BFL be 3x or 4x more efficient, not just 2x?

And I'm aware Inaba has already answered this by saying Tom's numbers are unrealistic. But I don't think either one has a working prototype, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Maybe they're "holding back" and will surprise us with better "real" numbers when the product ships.

^^^ This.  It will be very tricky to get all 8 chips the same height and in the same plane.  We have had similar issues with heatsinks not making good contact w/ multiple chips.  This could be a big issue for BFL.  But at the (low) power levels BFL is predicting, it may be less of an issue.

They're using thermal pads, so probably not much of a problem.

Hmmmm. At a certain point you start to hit severely diminishing returns though. As I understand it what actually matters is the junction-to-air thermal resistance R_θJA, which is equal to the sum of the junction-to-case thermal resistance R_θJC and the case-to-air thermal resistance R_θCA. Now, R_θJC is a property of the chip package and can't be improved by using a better heatsink, so once you've got R_θCA significantly lower than that you don't get much benefit from better heatsinking. (That's partly why you don't see fancy heatpipe heatsinks on Spartan-6 mining boards; the package thermal resistance is high enough that it's not worth it.)

I can't actually find any information on the typical thermal resistance for the top of a QFN package, though, which is where BFL are attaching the heatsink; most datasheets only seem to quote R_θJC for the exposed pad on the bottom.

That's because the bottom heat spreader has orders of magnitude better thermal conductivity than the top of the package and is used in most cases to dissipate the heat from a QFN package. I would expect that even with the heatsink on there the die temperature will get pretty high, we won't see anything like we have with the Spartan-6s where the die temp can be 35C. Still, even if the on die temperature is high it's not like that's a problem depending on design. People run GPUs at 60-70C 24/7 and they're more complex chips than thes.

http://semicon.njr.co.jp/eng/icpackage/doc03.html

Most likely the owner of the hand is fat.

Where is the NEW custom heatsink?

That's not the ASIC.

Checkout this post from BFL which seems to support my position:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:Bitforce+SC+ASIC+Product+Line (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:Bitforce+SC+ASIC+Product+Line)

"While our numbers are very good, we are being conservative with our announce power figures and the likely power consumption will be even less."

Reference: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/251-More-Jalapeno-Pictures-amp-Shipping-Update/page18

Eryngi (like Bogart) asks the right questions.

It seems to me like it is what eryngi points out (IMO), that there is possibly a different reason for leaving customers in the dark as to what is potentially being played out.

Indeed, it is very smart of eryngi to pull out. It would be dumb if he did stay despite strong indicators as to what the game may be behind the scenes. I think Sharky does not really understand (at all) what eryngi is going on about. If he did, he would be more concerned at the possibilities.

There are two kinds of customers in this case, those who are worried but their confidence is based on promises. Then there are those who understand what the subtle hints indicate and are worried enough to jump ship.

In this case, eryngi has decided that jumping ship was appropriate considering what all the indicators led him to believe. (Think of it like the Titanic just after it hits the iceberg) He has cashed out based on that information (and apparent confirmations/denials) of a situation. There are other people whom don't know what any of it means or don't know any better and will stay until it is very evident there are problems. (The Titanic begins to tilt and enters the waters length wise?)

The company has stated that refunds are currently a trickle, and they are honoring those whom wish to jump ship early. Though they said if it becomes an administration issue with too many refunds they will close that door. They also state that they have not used any pre-order funds. So that means every penny is safe. (Why accept pre-orders though if you can sell the product once it is ready for shipment if that is the case?Why not a standard pre-order down payment if you only wished to know how the market demand was for your product?)

Anyway, at the first signs of ice on deck, jump ship. Never believe that there are enough lifeboats or that this ship cannot sink. That is my personal opinion.

I just wonder if they will allow eryngi words to persist and sink in for others after eryngi's  refund? I am inclined to believe they will wipe it out.

This one stuck out for me. Given the BitCoin community they guaranteed their orders in a way that a deposit would not have done. At the very least they would be having issues with all the folks planning on completing their purchases with Pirate backed income.

It's also a good thing for the shipping and cashflow, no questions as to when they get access to the money for each unit (when they ship), and there is no drama about the guy who SHOULD have been in the first group but could not complete the purchase in time.

Honestly all the solutions are messy, but I think theirs is about the least complicated.

Question:

If you are paid in BTC (virtual funds), are any consumer protection laws even applicable for a cryptocurrency?

I know it is a question out of left field, and I am not implying anything, but we should start a thread to discuss what can be enforced if you use a cryptocurrency.

Your questions are right to the point. Why accept preorders with full up-front payment if you're not in need of capital to produce whatever you're producing?


BFL never answered if this meant the first month of preorders or all of them. So there is a possibility not every penny is safe. After all, if they go belly-up, it's not their problem anymore. They tried and they failed.

I'm pretty sure that the costs associated with 65nm ASIC production could not be covered by their profits alone. They claim they received VC capital, but no additional information has been provided on this matter.

Edit: I want to point out that none of the ASIC manufacturers have shown a prototype, and all have taken full up-front payment for preorders. The only company that has been open about their progress is BlockErupter(Asicminer), but they've run aground with GLBSE now. Also, I'm not aware what is happening on the Avalon mailing list, but looking at Ngzhang's track-record, I'd be amazed if they were not open regarding their progress as well as the risks associated.

I hoped this whole ASIC transition would've been completely crowd-funded and designed as an open project, that would've made all of us miners share/stakeholders. I'm afraid we've become like the people that rushed to Klondike over a century ago and lost all of their money due to their greed.

Like in my country right now, our precious Lapland is being raped by greedy mining companies spilling uranium and nickel into our pure lakes. Corrupt officials stand passive and watch as our national heritage is ruined for a fistful of dollars. Sad times.

In Sandwich, IL, when a business mysteriously burns down while struggling financially, the cause is referred to as Albanian lightning.

The payments to BFL in Bitcoins are automatically converted to USD through BitPay. BFL never sees a Bitcoin.

That said, the consumer protection laws would still apply since you're effectively paying in USD.

What part of ANY was confusing here? They have stated this multiple times even if they have not answered the exact post you are looking for.

Like it or not, this is not a community project, it is a for-profit enterprise. As part of that equation you keep certain information to yourself to avoid giving the competition information that they can use to get an advantage on you. In the case of BFL many of the things that have been asked for get into that proprietary realm.

They have answered, they have INVESTORS that covered the initial costs, their investors don't get paid back if BFL fails. Legally that money is not theirs until they ship the product. If they went bust without shipping anything all the investors will be on the hook to refund all of us from a legal perspective.

If you have ever operated a business on a line of credit or flooring agreement you are already very familiar with these rules, because exceeding your cashflow can allow a company to go under because it is TO SUCCESSFUL for it's resources.

Once you get past a basic small business, it becomes a lot more about the reliable and predictable flow of money through the organization (paying rent, salaries, buying new materials, etc) than just making a profit in a single tactical action. BFL has shown by their actions that they are interested in the long game (at least a year or 2, likely more) and are playing by business rules, this obviously is not a scam in a garage so we need to apply the relevant standard.

bASIC and Avalon are a lot more like the hobbist type project with one or 2 critical folks doing everything, but I think BFL has graduated from that category into a real business. This is AWESOME news in my book, we need more businesses using Bitcoin and operating like businesses rather than cowboys, hopefully BFL will be an anchor for others. This is because (beyond a small scale) established business don't want to work with an individual, they want to work with another established business that they can rely on.

+1

You paid them for something, and they acknowledged payment. It does not matter if the purchase was made with gold or Rare Purple Lego's (assuming both parties agree on the exchange rate), they are obligated to deliver or return you the same value in exchange. This does mean that the spot-rate will be used if you insist in payment in Rare Purple Lego's, so you won't get the same number, but they will be worth the same value when you get them.

Consumer protection (generally, not CC specific unless CC was used, etc.) applies, this is similar to why coupons have a "no cash value" clause.

?
bASIC and Avalon also employ third parties for designs as does BFL. So it is not a 1 or 2 person operation. The shipping side of each company IS a different story between the three companies. These three are not of the same size.

Avalon has gone on record to state that they don't want to ship huge lots like BFL in their first run. I forget exactly what the reasoning was.

bASIC's Tom has stated that he doesn't have the manpower but will hire IT temps to fill in as necessary.

But I totally agree, when there are alot of mouths to feed with cash, there will always be problems with cash flow if a company makes the wrong decisions.

It Tom gets hit by a bus, or ninja assassins take out Team Avalon, then it is game over. If BFL_Josh dies, we get to make jokes and then bug the company for our stuff. (No offense Josh, you would be missed by some at least!)

BIG difference. Even with outsourcing the risks around doing business with individuals and tiny groups is higher than when dealing with larger groups. Larger groups are more likely to continue in the face of adversity, which is one of the reasons for the rise of the corporation over the last 500 years. This is actually the case where the "corporate person-hood" thing we are dealing with is needed, that corporate person is obligated to you, no matter who owns/operates the corporation. (Free speech through unlimited campaign donations on the other hand seems to be a misapplication of the Bill of Rights)

By the way, the first chip run for BFL is allegedly 20,000 chips.

20,000 ASIC chips can make

20k / 8 = 2,500 Single SC chips.
20k / ? = ?,??? Little SC chips.
20k / 1 = 20,000 Jalapenos.
20k / 200 = 100 Mini-rigs.

Those are the totals if a batch of 20,000 are divided above as if the batch were used exclusively for one type.

Question: How does one go about fulfilling 12,000 order ID's? Lets assume there are less than 6,000 valid orders. (no clue how many are multiple units in each order...so lets assume it makes up to 6,000 assorted units. Some will order several units while others only 1 unit.)

How does one go about fulfilling that many orders with only 20k ASIC chips? Anyone know how many chips will go into each little single SC?

Well, You have a point I cannot refute LOL....you got me!

Edit: Note to self, ask Tom if he has life insurance.
Edit1: Note to self: Ask Team Avalon if they have any ongoing problems with Ninjas from overseas.

The Little SC will be 4 chips (logically, since each chip produces 7.5GH/s, and they will be 30GH/s units).

But why are you asking this question?  Josh already stated that the 20k chips was more than enough to fulfill all current preorders (as of a couple of weeks ago)... so the existing orders are some combination of the above units, but not enough to use up 20k chips.

Which is awesome news since it puts us right on track to meet my predictions from my October Analysis :P

I ask, because it means that out of the 12,000 electronic orders...very few that are actually valid. I thought they were well into the 6,000 range. But looking over different combos, I find it hard to believe that there are many valid orders. I expected many mini-rigs to be sold since customer service stated most of their customers were supposedly not front bitcointalk.org or any other forums. (?)

Oh goodness no. They have a preorder count of maybe 300 here on the forums (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89685.0), but they've noted before that total preorders are about double what we see here. Call it 600-700 orders, with the majority being Jalapenos and Singles.

And I know veerrryyy few people able to drop $30k on a dime for a Mini Rig. Out of the many thousands of BTC users, only a handful will be throwing down cash for them (including myself if my Fund raises the capital ;))

Ah, ok.  Yes, very few of the orders are valid.  I would guess maybe 1,000 orders.  Just my personal opinion/hunch.

Right.  This is due to curious people testing out the order button to see how many BTC they'd need to spend to make an order.  So people would try to time their order to the market and in the process they'd create 20 false orders.

Then I am deeply confused....

I thought I saw one representative say they had several hundred of each type. (Some post somewhere on BitcoinTalk or on their company forum (don't remember where).

I thought they were the biggest? If they only have 600 or 700 (or anywhere near that range) then why isn't Tom (of bASIC) considered the largest vendor? Hopefully someone can straighten me out as I have seemingly lost the plot and the narrative I kept seeing touted around....

How many units on preorder does Tom have?

He had about 900 orders as of about 2 1/2 weeks ago. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1292414#msg1292414

However, I think BFL has a lot more than 600-700 orders. That would mean that only 1 in 20 orders actually got paid. I'm thinking it's 4-5x that amount. About a month ago, they said there were upwards of 100TH/s in pre-orders.

So maybe it would be better to compare pre-sold TH/s then.  Tom doesn't have minirigs...  If 50 of those BFL orders are minirigs, that's 75+TH/s right there.  It wouldn't take much to make 600-700 orders into more than 100TH/s, depending on what each of those orders was for.

It's really useless speculation anyway.  Who cares how many orders there are?  What matters is how many TH/s were ordered, and (to a lesser extent), how much revenue those sales brought in to each of the companies.

Well - actually - Tom did say they had already done a prototype - but didn't show it.
That was his first announcement of bASIC back in September:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1157524#msg1157524
(stating Nov/Dec delivery)

and the post mentioning the prototype
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1157583#msg1157583

Right.

BFL: 20,000 chips in the first batch, maybe half of them go into Jalapenos for 4.5 GH/s and half into the other for 7.5 GH/s. We're looking at 120 TH/s preordered if they use every chip.

bASIC: 900 orders, also assume a 50/50 split between the 27 and 54 GH/s rigs. 36.45 TH/s total preordered.

BFL has roughly 3x the orders TH/s-wise as bASIC.

50/50 split is clearly not gonna be correct - I'd 'guess' it would be something like 90/10 since all the original orders were upgraded to 54 when he announced it.
Though even 75/25 puts that up to 42.5TH/s (not a big difference, but still a difference)

I don't think half of all the chips are going to go into Jalapenos. There's a reason they started offering a "Little Single" upgrade from Jalapenos while still maintaining your place in line. Combined with the fact that they only use 1 chip instead of 8, I'd say it's a small percentage of their chips that will be in Jalapenos.

Maybe I am thinking about this wrong but for each single traded in BFL will send out about 8 asic chips.
1 SC single =8
2 Little Singles likely = 8
8 Jalapenos = 8.

The rigs will throw off the numbers but knowing the raw trade ins are 8 chips per single trade in maybe would get closer to the right number.
Though the Mini rig trade ins will get more. I would expect every order to have at least 8 ASIC chips unless someone paid for a single jalapeno or a little single by itself.

I agree with your logic on this.  They went ahead with an upgrade option while maintaining current spots in line.  Makes me think they're good for it.

I dont think we can predict how those chips will be placed between units. There are still people trading in japalenos to something better.

The easiest and probably most accurate way is to just look at the wait list thread and assume that's close to the total distribution.

Why bother?

Just assume they are shipping ~15,000 chips over the first 6-8 weeks and finishing the 20K batch within another month or so (close to worst case, all 20K ship by 3/1.) It does not matter if they are in Jally's or Mini-rigs at the macro level, just multiply by 7.5 for worst case.

What is more interesting to me is the actual execution, will they achieve faster shipping, or will it take until 6/1 to sell out of the initial 20K batch?

I'm also trying to factor in a 20% boost in performance for all those chips someafter release when overclocking becomes common or BFL releases faster clockspeed firmware. (500Mhz to 600Mhz) A second boost of 33% (800Mhz)  is likely as well, but I'm betting something will give before we hit 1Ghz for most customers.

Well there is a relevance of chips <-> device coz it affects the difficulty.
The J'things produce a lot less GH/s per chip.

Actually i would like to know if those ASICs will be overclockable? Its no problem to put some fan on them, if that means more GH/s. If they will, that could raise difficulty even more.

AFAIK they will be at half speed ~500Mhz, so maybe with later firmware versions they will be.
IMO the more important question is would Jalapenos offer the possibility to put them at full speed i.e. 7.5Gh/s with proper power source and cooling.

I dont see why this would not be possible, there is always a way around that...  ::)

If that impacts the overall hashrate by more than 10% I'd be amazed. Many more chips will be going into the other models, which means that the slower speed of the Jally should be discounted to 25%, 12.5% or less on a per unit basis.

let me just make a point, I don't think that Jally's are going to be as popular as singles (or even little singles) but let's assume half of what they sell if Jally's and they sell 1000 of each them and Singles.

Jally: 1000*4.5 = 4.5TH
Single: 1000*8*7.5 = 60TH
Total: 9000 Chips for 64.5TH
Average per chip: 7.16GH/s
Impact of shipping half Jally: 4.5% total hashrate reduction.

It does not matter because it's a small margin and it's something that will be breaking in our favor, but unpredictably. There are so many errors larger than 5% in guessing this stuff that you are better off just assuming the worst.

Has BFL even gotten the 20K chips yet? From what I've read, they'll need at least 40K chips to accomplish the same task. Too bad twice as many units were ordered since this exampled was used.

Now, BFL is in the chips selling business while investors who ordered Little Singles get pushed further down the queue since they were tricked by BFL to trade in their Chilly Peppers.

How is that 2 week FCC certification coming?

ahahaha, yeah an update on that would be nice eh?

Soon, we will get to the bottom of this. I just sent out 5 emails to the FCC. Tomorrow, I make a call. I tried earlier but they were already closed. Make no mistake, I will not make the same mistake tomorrow.

Josh/BFL, you want to play hardball? Let's Play!

GAME ON!

I don't see why you really care so much about BFL's FCC status.