Bitcoin Forum

What should be the market cap of bitcoin in your opinion if we want the bitcoin price to be relatively stable and saved from manipulation ?

The market cap should be at least $50,000,000,000 for us to have a bitcoin price that is relatively stable and saved from manipulation.

This is never happening.How will the market work if the prices don't flacuate ?There will always be demand for goods which will rise the prices in turn .One has to have a market which has an economy of what 10000 million to achieve a stable rate ?

Never. As long as we have the current shitty exchanges, we won't see the manipulation rates even drop 1%. In order to achieve a more stable price, we need to have one global orderbook just like for example the Nasdaq. That's when we will start to see the difference. If nothing happens and we keep the current exchanges, absolutely nothing will change.

probably very high in the range of trillion(1T at least), you see gold has 6T and still some volatility, but it's rare and certainly does not happen on a daily basis

When the market cap is so high that no single entity can move the price easily. The market cap can be similar to US debt or $19 trillion.

If you view bitcoin relatively to another coin like the US dollar you should ask yourself what is stable.

Never. Gold can't pull it off and that's only a few thousand years old and is worth trillions. I don't see how BTC could pull it off as there'll always be national currencies to measure it against.

it's very unlikely that a higher market cap will fully stabilize the bitcoin price. a higher market cap can make the price more stable, but that's all that's possible. there will always be large players that will and can manipulate bitcoin no matter how big the market cap is.

Much higher as it is now!
But you will never be safe or protected by manipulation.
I mean look how big the traditional markets are and they are all rigged in a way.
But to get rid off of the actual crazy volatility we will need a market cap of several hundreds of billions!
But please keep in mind that there will always be volatility, it just won't that super roller coaster crazy anymore.

I think it should be way higher than it is right now, but it's unlikely this will happen

That's just not the way the bitcoin market works. It goes up and goes back down.

Bitcoin is a free market. It's worth what we are willing to pay for it. I know right now the whole market is being controlled by large whales, so we are basically buying at whatever price they want. If they feel they should pump it to $500, then people will buy that. If they see people aren't buying because they pumped the price too high, then the price simply falls back. There is no such thing as stability as long as wealthy traders have the majority of funds and coins.

Normally the stability of a currency mainly come from the monetary policies created, followed and managed by the owners of it. Which are the States of all the world. They  delegate such power to one monetary Authority which normally is called Central Bank (but not always so; in USA for example is called Federal Reserve). The lasts take care and manage only the national currency. All their work and the structure they have is build to serve this aim. Normally, theoretically, the amount of money in circulation in a given moment must be equals with the overall value of all the good produced and in market and part of those in production in that given moment plus an amount which allow a desired amount of inflation of that currency (all this is very simplified).

Bitcoin have nothing similar. It is a pure product of market which move and play according to the rules and the "caprices" of the free market. Have no owners which can take care of it, have no goods which can justify its existence on the market. Have one particularity which make it very strong. Its flow in the market is constant. So in this case we have an overturned situation compared to the above explained. In the above the money must "follow" the value of goods in the market while in the case of bitcoin is the flow of the amount of bitcoin in the market (which is fixed) which must be followed by everything. This flow, being fixed, is the initial point of everything has to do with bitcoin. With this situation is hard to tell that bitcoin can follow the normal rules followed by the normal currencies in use and issued by the Central Banks.

So no one can know when or if someday bitcoin will have a stable price or less volatile possible. Can be guessed that this may happen with its maximal spread and the possible increase of price. But are only guesses. I, for example, personally believe that bitcoin will have one day a very high price and will be an almost stable currency when it will be in these levels. This is one my hope and maybe conviction given from the facts that it is the first materialized product of a disruptive technology (peer to peer), and above all, because it is in limited number. But i am sure that this cannot be verified if bitcoin will be not regulated by most or majority of the countries. The non legalization will transmute it in a marginal currency mainly used for illegal stuffs and only from people devoted to it. That's all I can tell about your question.

If one day that bitcoin will be stable, I want that bitcoin will be 100.000 dollars.
That would be a nice stable money for bitcoin.

With my little knowledge, until all the bitcoin get mined out, we cannot expect a stable price in bitcoin ecosystem.
Bitcoin prices are keep on driving high to attract many people into bitcoin adoption.
Maybe after all the bitcoin will be mined out and bitcoin goes into mainstream we can see a stable bitcoin prices.

I think bitcoin has a shot of maintaining a high sustainability of stability because of it's deflationary nature.

Yes it's true that gold is deflationary aswell but I believe that gold is a huge speculative bubble.

Also the dollar can fluctuate about 40% yearly with a steady inflation of 3-5% so it's no different.

What you are saying is true. The market will always move around, low and high and bouncing up and down.
That's how the bitcoin market works. Like I said.

Yeah for now bitcoin is going up and down, but I am sure that one day will just stop stable around 500K or some like that.
Maybe less than 500K.

I dont think that we have stable price for that we have to maintain it for a whilw and price is jumping 24/7

Gold and silver market are also getting manipulated till now so with only few million dollar market cap couldn't Stabilize the price. It will remain like this until bitcoin achieve global adoption.

Bitcoin will never be at a stable price. That's just not the way this market works.
There will always be pumps and dumps it's inevitable.

i guess this is the outcome of having a decentralized system like bitcoin, fiat can be much stable because their are issued by a central authority

i don't mind a bit of instability even when the adoption will be big, as ong is nothing crazy like +100% of value in 2-3 days or something

And is this bad? Of course there will always be volatility to some certain degree.
But in the future, with a bigger market cap, it won't be that crazy as it is now.
I could live with that, as I see Bitcoin not as a currency for at least the next coming 20 years.

Yes for next 20 years, bitcoin would be the biggest returning investment vehicle. So that it will attracts many new users and adopters. Many new users will make bitcoin into main stream of daily usage. Then bitcoin will turn as a currency. At that time you can expect a stable price.

I don't think we'll see a stable price because the price depends on factors like supply/demand.  The market cap will be much larger than today, because the technology is still undervalued and has so much potential.

If you think bitcoin market will be ever free from manipulation then... you are wrong. It won't happen, but you probably know that Stock market or currency markets are not free from manipulation either.
Unfortunately it is a fact, that you can't have free from manipulation of price market, there will be always backstage movements, pump and dump schemes, and I am afraid that market cap won't change it at all.

What should have we been saying when we had only Mt. Gox? :) I think that our exchanges have improved considerably in the past 2 years! I mean it ain't perfect and it always can be better but this is actually where we have made quite a progress in the past 2 years.

That statement is true to some extent. But now we have Cryptsy stopped trading and withdrawing our money.

I think if the market cap approaches $1 Tn and the holding is reasonably well distributed, it would be tough to manipulate the market.

You can't compare Bitcoin exchanges as Bitstamp, Bitfinex and so on with a shitty altcoin exchange as Cryptsy. Cryptsy has always been slow, shady and what not. That's not new. It's just that most people have recently seen Cryptsy getting worse and worse.

I totally agree with you. Cryptsy cannot be compared with any reliable exchange. I still have some money left in my cryptsy account that I am unable to withdraw.

Maybe at gold marketcap but still the price will change as everything is relative, even the dollar value changes among years.

Big market cap means higher acceptance of bitcoin. Bitcoin price is less like to fluctuate as before.

If the bitcoin marketcap is bigger than $1 trillion, not many organizations have the ability to move the price quickly.

I think the price of the bitcoin is not stable unlike gold. the price of bitcoin will rise and dump. see the chart the price repeatedly every year.

I guess the price bitcoin will never be stable if bitcoin still has a relationship with the market, because bitcoin will become a tool that has a price. bitcoin prices also in the set of users, such as the current bitcoin prices stable at $ 390-400 but maybe later it will change again over time

i also think the price will probably never reach the point of real stability. there is too much speculation in such a small market. that's why we shouldn't focus too much on seeing the price be stable. the most stability that we will see will never be more than what we have seen when the price was stuck between $220-$250 for a very long time. better stability is not possible with such a low market cap and so many early adopters holding thousands of coins.

As you said it depends upon market condition and this is the main reason. It would not become stable because market always faces ups and downs and it is obvious that bitcoins also vary with it. Due to its variable price many traders are in profit by buying it at low price and sell it at higher prices.

It is not the price that will make the price stable the but it will be the coins in many many hands so adoption is what will likely stable the price. I think we all focus a little to much on price and give it to much credit.
When distribution is more even the price will follow suit.

I think not only the market can decide when the price will rise or dump. I think also investors and new users has effect why price of the bitcoin will rise..
And i think bitcoin will never be stable is just like other currency or product market that never been stable in long time..
If bitcoin will become fiat i think it will be stable but i think its impossible..

That is right. But when the price is high, the market cap is also high, no single institution will be able to pump and dump easily.

Over the coming days the price might get stable at 400$ for a long time. This can be even get high.
Now looking the current market of bitcoin it would take time to be stable at the 400$ range.
we can expect such stable value by the end of april according to my calculation.

Well it seems that the price is quite stable right now. Perhaps this is the exact capitalization for the time being.

the current stable price is just temporary, and it would change soon enough. currently there is a lot going on with bitcoin.

actually two big things, one is the block halving expectation. and the other is the drama surrounding block size which both are affecting price pretty good.

It think it will take a long time till the bitcoin will really be stable at a point.
The bitcoin has to get bigger if it wants be stable, I think it just a matter of time.

i personally think we won't see the price reach the point of decent stability as long as very early adopters still have tens of thousands of coins. i think as soon as we reach $1000 again that they will surely cash out some of their coins, but they will still have enough coins to make the markets crash if they so wish.

Yes, but it isn't in their best interest to crash the market. If the market cap of bitcoin crosses a trillion dollars, the distribution would automatically become more widespread (early adopters would cash in at various stages).

This.  A good analogy would be in the stock market where it's much easier to pump and dump shitty-ass penny stocks than it is to manipulate the price of Coca-Cola stock.  For the latter, pretty much only Warren Buffett could do that.  So bitcoin needs to be a hell of a lot higher than it is, and I think we'll get there eventually.  Buy and hold.

I wish the price can stay in the current range to consolidate. The long the consolidation, the higher the price will be.

Its stable indeed. But I dont like it. I hope it will rise soon. Bitcoin now has no value. I cant sell it now. I hope it will be more worth.
Maybe next month it is going to rise. At least I hope that it will happen. But you never know what is going to happen in the future.

If the price is stable around $450 for 3 months, the price will rich $1000 after the block reward halving.

How do you come up with that? I really don't see how a three month stable price at $450 will result in $1000 after the block halving. We have to eat through hundreds of thousands of coins being sold across the largest exchanges in the runup to $1000. All that will make it a very difficult target for this year. I think it's more realistic to think about $1000 in 2017.

Its a little bit stable now. It is not very stable. You see that it is changing. And it is i also rising slowly and that is very good.
Maybe it is now good to make an investment so you can get later in the future more money.

So who is responsible for instability of price ?
Whales or fake volume on exchanges(in assuming he exist).
Can we get solution through decentralized exchange?

420$, would be nice number, and we wouldin't havr to wait alot because it's around this price allready, just bad thing is that it won't bestable anytime soon, it needs time

The whole market force is responsible for the price change. The big whales contribute most to the price instability.

If you write a post, at least do it with some attention to detail. That aside, since when was the price stable over a very long period of time? Never. I don't even think we'll see the stability that people are looking for within 5 years. Especially when more and more wealthy investors are entering the market. I see volatility everywhere.

How can you tell more investors, where you can find info about how many people using bitcoins,
and how this number growing?

Instability is a phenomenon. Why do we have to blame somebody for it?
If whales try to manipulate the price, that is a financial crime.
Otherwise, we just have to accept the high volatility of Bitcoin.

for now I prefer bitcoin fluctuating. with fluctuations in the price of bitcoin could be higher. surely it would make more people join again

It wont be stable. I think it will always change. And it is always changing, because the value is hard to predict.
You never know what can happen later in the future. But if you are now looking you see that the value is rising.

stable bitcoi price could be 10 000$, and stable price would stop all sellers/buyers, would be no manipulation, also a lot of poeple would use them, stores would accept them

That is right. If the price is very stable, there is no profit to be made from the fluctuation of the price, it will be good for the adoption.

The price wont be stable until all the halving is done or all the bitcoin has been mine and that makes it rear.
The more rare the item is the more price it will get and make there will be a stable price for that but until then we have to wait for all bitcoin to be mine.

The price is indeed now stable and that is much better than it will go down. So that is good. But now we must wait to that it will rise.
But we dont know when it will start and that is the problem. We need some patience, and just wait for what is going to happen.

Well we all want a stable bitcoin price. And right now the price is far from stable i think.
Some very interesting things are about to happen. Either China's money or a big sell out.

Don't worry I feel the price will be stable for some month or so.

It is stable and that is much better than it will be going down. So that is quite good now we must wait for a price increase.
And that will of course come. And that will be very good. Than we can sell it with a good profit and have some more money later.

Do we all want a stable price?

The price looks pretty "stable" to me: if I had to guess, based on what the market's done, I'd say that it was stable in October, volatility increased dramatically in November, and has been declining since then with a few increases in early/mid January and then again in early/mid February. (http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/bitstampUSD#rg120zczsg2015-10-01zeg2016-03-10ztgSzbgEzl)

Fortunately, I don't need to trust my guesstimate (or anyone else's). There's a standard, widely accepted, definition of volatility, and there's even a website that measures and displays BTC/USD volatility (https://btcvol.info/) (and even compares it with other currency pairs, like USD/EUR). (And it looks like my back-of-an-envelope analysis was slightly wrong - volatility actually fell in early/mid February. Thank goodness I don't need to rely on my own - or anyone else's - guesswork).

I think that dude means total stability. I personally like the way the price is moving since its very first exchange listing as it makes me great profits year on year. Don't want to see that change, but I am sure it won't change.

If you look at the overal price the last months, then the price remained fairly stable around the $400 level if you ignore the dumps to sub $400 and the peaks to +$440.

I don't think we all want total stability, either - even leaving aside the sheer impossibility of it! CNY was "stable" for many years (pegged to USD) and we're seeing now where that leads (sucks to hold CNY; USD and BTC - not so much). Fortunately Bitcoin has no Peoples Bank of China, so volatility - even if low - is likely here to stay, same as nearly every other currency.

total stability it's an utopia, it does not exist, not even gold with 7T marketcap has it, no fiat either, there is always a spread and a correction in value even if the coin is not based on supply and demand, there is inflation and deflation that play a big role

Absolutely. BTC/USD volatility [1.91%] is around 2/3x USD/EUR volatility [0.7%] (and not that far off USD/XAU [1.1%]). We either accept a freely floating currency (and the volatility that that implies) or we find some magic way to peg BTC to another currency and accept that we're now dependent on one central bank (and even then it's going to be volatile against other currencies floating against the currency BTC is pegged to).

How quickly we forget that major currencies experience volatility! George Soros made over a $1 billion betting on GBP volatility. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday)

But seeing a difference of 200% in one year is not what anybody could like unless they themselves are responsible for that or are making enough money from it.For btc to be more and more stable its market capital should be in Trillions which would make it impossible for one or two people to move it how they want.

You're suggesting that BTC should be more like GBP, and hence impossible for the next George Soros to move it how they want?

why do you feel that? is this just a wild guess or you just trying to guess it wildly? im not sure about it

the price is stable now but it can be sold down to something like 400 dollars per bitcoin as there is no high buying interest right now and the price is going up really slowly

I think that price is stable and i also think that price will jump at least for 100 or 200$

The current rise in bitcoin’s price is more stable than its previous price changes, in my opinion this little up`s and downs are just normal thing with bitcoin just cause btc is still young and vulnerable. How time passes we see bitcoin more stronger and stable. Bitcoin will have to fight many more battles before come to the throne.

We can expect price jump here, but $100 or $200 is not practically possible right now. Maybe in long term we can see big jumps. Moreover prices are more sustaining and stable right away so, only some small leap may possible in coming days.

I like the stable price now, it allows for some earning buying and selling at small ups and downs, and gives more peace of mind lol

Who knows, but i believe we will never reach stabile price which we expecting because we are paired with dollar.
If we finally experience bitcoin as real money not like investment then we can talk about stability.

Good to hear that price is stable. bitcoin is the thing which can be utilized on the better way. Also one more thing to remember which have to save some amount in it because possibilities it might go high as well.

price already stable for 2 weeks and i think it's nice because i already take a profit because price just moved around $400-$440

25000$ would be enough, it's pretty high price for bitcoin, also that would take years to go so high

But i don't think that it's possible to see stable bitcoin, price changes 24/7, we have price rises and falls

As you said the price is quite stable from the price of $385. At present the price is getting small increase for a short time and getting stabilized within $410 to $415.

And how long this will last? If not earlier we will see major movement of price at halving. This is far from stability and this is main cause of slow adoption i think. For stable business you need stable prices.

We can never expect price stability in bitcoins as the market cap is too small at a moment, and price ups and downs will always follow bitcoins as its hard to believe that bitcoin can ever be stable in future.

From the last week the price is stable around the $410 to $415 tag. This price has given good profit with the small variations.

A few weeks is just a small timeframe to consider the price to be stable. At min. you need a month for it when it comes to bitcoin. And I do believe the current momentum is there. So a stable price or at least a minumum price.

Almost every time bitcoin price will be stable. The price often jumps low and high to certain extent and finally will be circulating around a value for long time, as now its circulating between $410 to $415.

There's no stable price but rather support price if you get my point here.

You can't called the price is stable if it only lasted for less than a month, at least.

It is stable now around this time and that is very good. We all hope of course that the price will rise for a long time.
And that we can later sell it with some huge profit. Halving is also coming so that is also very good.

The price has been stable for over 2 months now. It has been fulctuating between $370-$420 since Jan and till now we haven't been able to get the price range of $450 - $550. In bitcoins, the price is not that stable always but when it remains in the same range since 3-4 months, we can see price rise or drop soon.

I noticed that the bottom of the price range has risen to $400 and the top is $450. So it is very tight range.

It is now indeed stable now and that is very good. I hope that more people will invest now and that they can have some profit in the future.
That will be so good. Because the halving is also coming and we all hope that it will be good.

i dont think this situation is good we already stable for long time in around $400-$440. this really hard to take a profit for who like short trade

Imo stable price to me is a minimum of 1 month or more.

Anything less then that, shouldnt really taken too seriously or you might screw yourself over depending on how many you hold.

This. It's getting ready to break out, only we're unsure which direction, lol. I personally think there will be some sort of pump before the halving.

Im sure it`ll go upwards.

Theres only so many bitcoins being circulated and now 78% of it is already all mined, so there should be some "rarity" if thats a word.

Its is not that stable. Because the value is always changing and that is the problem. I hope that more people will see it.
And the halving is also coming so that is very good. But you never know what will happen later in the future.

Bitcoin price will never be stable as some major holders of bitcoin are manipulating the price and a lot of people still dont know about bitcoin.
When all the bitcoin has been mined then we will see a stable price.

Yes indeed. it is a currency so that is always changing. You are right. But I think that it will be more worth later.
Because the halving is also coming and that can be very good for Bitcoin. But dont know and that is hard to predict.

The price right now is far from stable its everyday staggering from 400 dollar to 420 if you ask me its not stable at all and it never been of course.
Maybe in the future there is a chance it will be stable, in about 2 years or something.

And I will add that price volatility in bitcoin is different in fiat currencies that's why it can't be stable for at least a year.

Crypto's are commonly used for trading that's why price always move frequently.

Its indeed not stable at all but the future may learn it if I'm honest I think the bitcoin can be stable very soon it all depends on one thing
It depends on the halving if the halving is good the bitcoin will be stable soon after it.

$400 to $420 is a little bit stable all right, I mean it has been that way for weeks now so maybe that range is the new floor. If it's gonna jump like $30-$50 per day then $10-$15 for the next few days then that's unstable IMO.

How can anybody argue that the price isn't stable? The price has been in the same range for quite a while now, no epic crashes & no massive pumps.

The prices been holding for the longest in the $400 zone.

Why would you think different? If prices werent stable then everyone would of left by now and we wouldnt have this debate.

Yup only speculations that price will drop cuz some think here like that for me price is in stable run for now

Everyone wish for a stable price, so after this halving I think a time of stability will start and after that no one will then want any fluctuations in the price. So, the future will be better.

I think the price will now be getting up despite slight increases

you could say that price is stable range is 400-450  (380-450) and that is good and predicted and can make some income in right moment

It's actually nice to see such a stability throughout the months. Great for people who are using Bitcoin as store of wealth. It's actually funny to see that some people here still think the current price is very low. The price is exactly where it belongs.

Its not that stable now. You can see that the value is moving. And that will be good maybe for us.
And we hope that the halving also will be good for Bitcoin, so we can sell it later with some good profit and that will be great if that is possible.

if you always watch the chart every day the price is stable and playing around 410-425 that i can consider it as stable price..
2 weeks ago until now the price is playing around that price. Today price is 418 and i think it will increase soon until 425 and it will drop again back to 410-418.. just lets hope that the price will stay in 400 above or will increase more..

for now is good balanced between electricity price and mining equipment and it all good for now it will be good to keep it like that if possible

The bitcoin can be stable in the future without a doubt its just a matter of time before it will go to a higher amount and gets stable.
Most likely this is gonna happen after the halving because than everything has happens, and people will normally invest again in the bitcoin.

The bitcoin will our be stable at the end of this year or it will take a few years from now on.

Indeed, the stability of the bitcoin is almost there in my opinion because it now only goes from 400 to 450 dollar.
I think in the upcoming months it can get stable, it will be stable soon or later so, we do not have to worry that it will never happen.

Stability is a good thing to see.  This has been going on for weeks, there is a calmness about it.  More stability means btc is maturing and is a stable investment.

When the awareness and knowledge is spread all over the world and everyone adopt bitcoin and continue with it to do business then it will become a global established and stable currency.

Yes, when all bitcoins is mined and bitcoin is distributed in all over the world to the hands of a large community then we will see the stability in price, it may happen after many years maybe 100 years.

Yeah not possible at a moment as the market cap or bitcoin is too small at present and if we want to see stability in the price then we want that user adoption should be higher.

Two years are much lower for the stability, I think the fluctuation in price will take about 10 years more and after that we can see some stability in the price when it will have established in a large community.

It is not that stable now. You can see now that the price is rising slowly and that is very good. So I hope it will rise for a long time.
But the thing is that you never know when it will stop and that is the problem. I hope that it will also be more used. And more acceptable.

If you were really into trading those rise and fall of bitcoin is not really a problem trader are used to that.
People who are afraid about the rise and fall of prices of bitcoin tends to lose much.

The value is a bit stable. And we all hope that it will rise for a long time in the future and that will be so good for those people who already have some Bitcoin.
I also hope that more people will have Bitcoin and that they are also going to make it popular and tell their friends that they also must use it.

Yes keep on recommending to the people around your and one day they will surely think of using bitcoins, and if does it will increase the adoption level which will lead to more stable price in future.

Stability is relative and depends on many factors, For example in the last months it has been somewhat stable around $400 but with the passage of time values may be increasing or down and its effect extended by different time intervals.

Of course the stability of bitcoin depends on various factors. Some of which are decentralized, short term growth, digital form  and the major one is it's backing technology.

For now the price today is not stable and its gradually decreasing. and i think more dump will be happen in this week.. so stay hold guys so that the price will not increase more..

I believed stability was around the corner but maybe i was wrong. We have to see what will happen in a few wees. I hope to see the price becoming tsable
around the 400 dollar mark which would be good for everyone of us.

$400 is good value to have but majority of us would be much happy if the price remains stable on $500 that would be the good value to hold for a longer period of time.

500 is price that all gain miners traders investors all and maybe that will be stable price after halving maybe little more

$500 is the price for May or June or just before the halving. Then the price will rise a lot due to the halving.

that seems pretty low. 50 billion only? Seems that can still be manipulated quite easily.     

Probably need to at least double that.

I think there is no stable bitcoin price because bitcoin is so volatile and traders are want a bitcoin to be volatile so that they woould seize the opportunity to profit.

your point is true no way btc will become so stable he change every it can
but would be nice to see him really stable

the problem is that people will never be happy with whatever phase the market is in. when the price is stable, people complain about the price being boring. when the price is volatile, people complain about the price moving too much. i really don't know what people here want anymore. they will never get satisfied.

People only want profit nothing less,they will never be satisfied no matter what price we are at because it will only give them a few money and traders want huge money to take.

From March to April, the price is within the tight range of $400 to $450. It has just broken that range.

well the price is pretty stable at the moment and i hope that it wont fall any time soon befor the bitcoin halving event because it will surely pump the price up then and make me some good money

The bitcoin price was stable apart from the mini pump and dump in the last week. that is good for the mass adoption.

that has nothing (ZERO) to do with the adoption. Price action is result of speculative movements and lack of them doesn't yet mean that the price of Bitcoin became stable. We are very far from such a situation.

We still have to wait a long time before this happens but I think it will most likely will happen when the halving has been done maybe.
If its not by the halving it will most likely be in 2020 and is from now on still far away, we cannot predict this also of course.

Tell me, what makes you think in 2020 that there will be stability in the price? No one can look that far into the future. We don't even know what the price will do tomorrow.

There is a chance that it will be stable this year but this is still not to predict, first the halving needs to be done and maybe than we can predict if it will be go stable.
Its just a matter of time before we will know this.

I think this will be the stability of bitcoin best, the current price is really stable, I do not think that the price of bitcoin can be stabilized, although the price up and down, but not too far, this has almost happened for 3 months, and it might be better if the price is getting up

i think still the price is not stabilized, it is moving up and down, as compared with the previous months the price has stabilized a little, hoping this will be maintained and price will be increased to big heights within couple of months.

The price will be stable or not, we can expect a big increase in price during the days of halving. As we had seen good increase recently, it might happen often.

The halving could increase the price quite a lot. But it may have already been price in. So in July, there might be big rise.

It is only this time that the price is at stable but I am sure that it will start to rise at the beginning of the month of May. And since the halving is coming near, we expect a great price increase

The price was for a long time stable and that is because it is not rising and that is also quite bad for the most people because they want to earn profit in a fast time.
And now they have to wait a longer time until the value will be more.

the stability has been broken now and there will only be rise.

that is why i have my eyes and ears open on the market watching everything to buy in the dips.

We are all waiting for the price to break the 500% benchmark

There seems to be confidence with the investors at $450, and now we just have to watch and see where it goes. I don't think the market is going to correct itself much for a week or two, but we can never be 100% sure.

If we can break $470, chances are corrections will only be down to $450, and so there is less risk buying now than later.

It will rise to the moon and beyond. Non-stop, no doubt about it.
Come on. It will be very difficult to get the price beyond $500-600 area based only on the halving hype. It is all very thin air.

The block size increase to 2MB or higher will help the price to go a bit higher as well. Combined with halving, the price could be $800.

We might break that margin soon. Now price rise has once again started. This time it might touch $500, if the increase in price happens in a stable manner.

you are right. from March to April the price just went up by $ 50. This is a good hike but slow, I hope this month bitcoin prices could reach $ 500, I really hope

Yes, you will be benefited along with all of us, now till halving the price will increase and after that I think the price will get some stability and then there will mass adoption occur as more people like a stable currency for their business etc.

But there are some people who adopt bitcoin only because they want to increase their money with the increase of the value of bitcoin and they do not like the price to get stability but only a continuous rise.

Yes, the last week stability was only a short term stoppage to the pumps and dumps and then started again to fluctuate the stability is currently too much away from us and for seeing a solid stability we have to promote bitcoin and have to ensure its adoption to all over the world.

In my opinion, the 10% price change within a week for the bitcoin is quite normal. In the past, it was much larger.

What is being considered normal by you will be seen as abnormal by others. 10% change in a week doesn't happen that often anymore. It means that the price gets either pumped to nearly $500 or dumped to nearly $400 when there is a 10% change. It's too large to happen.

$100 change is not 10% when changing between 400 and 500 it is 20-25% depending on what is the starting price. but the percent or the price doesn't matter changing this big means a massive volume movement that is not going to happen it need a massive dump or pump to change $100

You didn't understand me. 10% up from current price of $453 = $498.3 and 10% down from current price of $453 = $407.7.

The price was stable for a long time indeed and there where a lot of people that dont like that and that is logic because they want to earn profit as soon as possible.
And that was not possible for them but now you already can see that it is rising slowly and that is perfect for them.

Now the only thing that they have to do is wait and see for what will happen with Bitcoin.

He will never be stable because if he gets stable there are less people using it anymore. Because of his
rising and falling price he get's allot of users. So don't be stable at all

Bitcoin was stable for a long time indeed and that is because it was not rising for a long time and many people dont like it because they want to make profit in a fast time and that was also their main reason.
But now they have to wait a longer time until the can earn profit with it and some of them have dont even the patience for it.

Not sure if you understand that if Bitcoin is valued at $10k, these $10k won't have the same value in other goods as they have today.

For making fast profits day-trading bitcoin can be extremely profitable if you know what you are doing. However, it is also highly risky by nature so you can both win and lose large sums of money very quickly.

Trading is always risky and day trading is more risky as you never know what will be the price at the end of the day, so if you can afford to take that risk then you can go for it.

Most people in this forum want quick gains, not understanding what are the underlying risks of day trading. Bitcoin, unwillingly, did a lot to promote day trading.

I really hope the bitcoin is gonna rise and be stable if the halving has been done but right now this is still far away.
I hope this will change soon or later, it can go stable after the halving.

I also do not like it if the price is stable for a long time only when I am on vacation or something because that means that I am not going to miss any big price changes.

I hope the price of bitcoin is as stable as the Euro or the US dollar. So we do not have watch the price all time.

Price of bitcoin seems to be stable at a moment but it will not continue for a longer time as bitcoin is well known for its price volatility which attracts many new users  towards it.

The price of bitcoin could rise a lot after the halving. It could even go to $1000 by the end of this year.

I think there is a chance that the bitcoin is gonna rise to a higher amount this year if the bitcoin will do its job with the stable price it has.
I really hope the price is gonna rise this year and than later on get stable.

I have same thought that price for Bitcoin is very stable at around 450 $ at the moment.It is very healthy and good sign.There will be some upward movement as we will approach to halving.I am not expecting some extraordinary impact on price.I think a price stability is more good for long term instead a temporary rise.

I also prefer a slower long term growth over peaks caused by pumps, but the majority (if not all) are only interested in short term profits. They will be very happy when the price is bouncing up and down quite frequently.

Yes if price of bitcoin is stable then it can attract many new users in future, and as a investor you will love to see a stable price as it will give you more faith in investing in a particular product.

Bitcoin price can never be stable

Until today, the bitcoin price is still just around the $440 range. It seems the price will stay below $500 before halving.

Personally I do not like it when the price is stable for to long because then there is nothing really to do on Bitcoin. I am here to make money so with the price bein stable I have to wait even longer for the price to up so I can make some money again.

its very difficult to get a bitcoin stable price

We like to the bitcoin price to be stable in short term, not too volatile. But we want it to rise in long term.

The price of Bitcoin was stable for a long time and that is indeed really bad because it needs a long time until it will be a higher value and that is bad.
Because not everyone has the patience for it and that have to change.

If the price will be stable the bitcoin will die. There will no stupid user be there who are using the bitcoin further if he has a stable value. Then you can leave the coin and focus on the gold.

Soon or later the bitcoin price will be stable but right now its not stable at all, it can still fall and let the price go to a low amount.
It will take years to let the bitcoin get stable.

Not sooner or later i think after block halving and  after satisfied for the price increased we will see the stable price for bitcoin because it will stay for less supply and high demands..

Stability in the price for several months isn't bad at all. It allows the market and its traders to take a break. For the evarage joe the stable period must have been fantastic as they don't like volatility.

I as a trader would find it hard to even earn from bitcoins if the price was stable. What would be the profit then?
If the currency was stable from first, it would have been a different thing but currently users have bought bitcoins at highers rates like $1300 and so on. They would all lose if the price gets stable at the current rate or even at $600-$800.

I hope he is stable for now but if he is stable for ever who has any profit i dont think anyone has a big profit right now. So lets hope he will get a bit higher and not stable for a long period.

It is not nice that the value keeps stable and that is because there are a lot of people that is waiting for a higher value and that have to change indeed.
The most people with Bitcoin are waiting for a higher value and that have to change soon we already waited a long time.

A stable bitcoin is at the moment far from now if I'm honest till will take some time for sure without any doubts.

What you see as being "not nice" is being considered a great thing by other people. One likes volatility as it allows that person to trade against it, and the other likes stability and a slowly rising price as they are holding their coins for a long period of time. Not every one can be happy at the same time.

I do not like it when the price is to stable for to long because it will result into people leaving and that is not good for Bitcoin at all. We have just left a stable price so for the price to be stable again is not good.

if the price is stable at a high rate I think is not a problem, but if the price is low then stabilized for a long time, then it would be very boring

A stable bitcoin is far from now, the bitcoin has to grow a lot to accomplish this, on a long term I consider it as possible.
We can only find this out in my opinion because this kind of things cannot be predicted.

I believe the same as there needs to be a threshold limit with regards to the bitcoin price and if it is too expensive for even the rich, it would be hard to fetch buyers. Stability like the current period was necessary as bitcoins rose to $490 in just a week while it was stable at $300 earlier last year.

I feel that $250-$400 range can be a preferred range/price for bitcoins as the price is not too high nor too low to buy/sell bitcoins. If the price is set above $1000, people might not buy it or there would be too many sellers and few buyers in the market. It should have a price like gold that can reach any person and be affordable.

we've had quite a stable period not long ago. i think more stable than what we have seen is just not possible. a lot people were very bored because the price was not moving at all. these people will be happy with the volatility now. traders want the price to keep moving as it allows them to make profit in quite a short time. the majority of the people don't like stability. i personally don't mind stability, but i also don't mind volatility as it allows me to make profits.

I assume you're talking about the pump in November last year? It was a quick peak that had no chance of surviving. Most of the experienced traders have made a good bit of profit during that time. Beside that, traders are just in the game to make profit. They want to see price swing after price swing as that is what gives them the opportunity to make money. They don't need any rest.

completely nonsense.

you can buy fractions of bitcoin, and if people find 1 bitcoin too expensive we can just switch over to millibitcoins

the amount of bitcoins is very limited, so they won't be in the $250~$400 range forever

The price of the coin will never be stable maybe for a couple of days and maybe a week of 2 but for ever no  that will never happen. So dont be afraid that he will stuck on this price he will rise again promise

The price of the bitcoin will never be stable maybe for a couple of time but not for always and that makes it so funny that many people want to invest int the coin. No one knows what the price of the coin will do so thats quiet excited.

both are correct price cannot be stable it can in theory but in practical use no way
sometimes it happen to be month or two that is stable then fluctuation comes to the price range (ups or downs)
my estimate is that it will always go up in price in time (as year pass) which is logical more people are known to it and will use it

maybe in 10-15 years you will need one or two coin to have some retirement plans

If the bitcoin price would be stable i dont think there would be people interested into. Because of the unstable price there are allot of people interested in to invest in bitcoins to make allot of profit.

The price of the Bitcoin was indeed stable for a long time and that have to change soon and many people are now waiting for a higher value and that would be perfect.
But of course we are not for sure what is going to happen and that is the problem but the most are hoping that it will rise soon.

I think the price was consolidating for the last 5 months. So when the price break out, it could be very high.

consider that price jumped from yesterday and this may be first sign for big coming
it may be small but price has gone 20+$ from yesterday in price it may just another pump but hope are high

It's different for each person. One person likes the volatility as it allows him to make profit while trading, and another person prefers stability as he is using Bitcoin as currency or store of wealth.

The Bitcoin price was stable for a long time indeed and that is now changing because you also can see now that there are more people that is having some profit in the future.
Because the halving is also coming towards to us so that would be really perfect.

After the bitcoin price is stable for a long time, it will rise a lot after it. This happened in the middle of last year, and is happening now.

Price of bitcoins cant be stable soon

That is the reason why the price will not be stable even for year because almost all people involved in bitcoin taking this currency as an investment.

Well it giving us benefit too so for others please don't desire for a stable bitcoin price. We can't make profit if the price is stable.

if the bitcoin prices continue to rise, I think bitcoin users who hold their bitcoin in large numbers will start to sell their bitcoin. and I think it will start to destroy the balance of bitcoin prices again

That's not entirely true, the price of bitcoin go in cycle, remember that when someone sell his bitcoin, someone will be buying it, except if that a big volume is being dumped and big time investors started to leave bitcoin after getting their profit, that I think would surely really affect the balance, but again, all that was dumped will then be again being buy by bitcoin users, if not very fast and in big volume, maybe slowly and in  many fractions which will make the price more stable.

I think 500$ is the lowest stable price of bitcoin right now. And the highest is 1000$ before the year ends.
But in order to achieve it we must hold our coins  and not selling it before the halving comes.

If it has low and high then that it's not a stable price. :)

If the volatility is less than 4% a week, I think it can be called stable. In the past, the price is very volatile.

The price of the coin will never be stable maybe for a couple of days and maybe a week of 2 but for ever no  that will never happen. So dont be afraid that he will stuck on this price he will rise again promise.

No it isn't. Bubble is not sustainable and soon will pop. I am not exactly sure when tho.
But I expect even $100 drop even before halving. It all depends if Chinese speculators will decide to transfer their BTC to FIAT soon or will try to create even bigger bubble.

Stable? How it rise 100 $ then in just few days.

That is why I love bitcoin. Its full with surprises, nice surprises I can say. Can btc make more in this year? I believe yes, some people made nice money with this rise. Most of everything I wonder can we touch 1100 $? Then its not late to buy even now I guess.

of course it can't be stable, the market cap is 8 billion, what do you expect.

the market cap needs to be in the trillions at least to be anywhere close to stable.

Yeah the price of bitcoin is quite stable till it suddenly increased steeply. This increase might continu and support in reaching $800-$1000.

I think today is not stable price of bitcoin, today is area resistance and it will be end than price will going down

yeah thats right so if you really want to make a profit with your bitcoins just hold your bitcoin because this the beginning of the price increase.. more increase coming these days..  and weeks..

That could happen. But if the bitcoin price stays around the $500 level for a few weeks, that is good achievement.

interesting part is that on Chinese market btc is over 560 on us/can market its around 550 and on Europe is 535 at the moment
so for now you could say that price is stable cuz its been like this for over a week now

you can say it's fairly stable once the price has been moving within a certain range for longer than a few months. at least that's how i look at it. that the price is holding its levels is because people aren't really interested in selling their coins right now as they expect a bigger price movement any time soon.

People are still arbitraging bitcoin across multiple exchanges and soon the price differences will become even smaller.

i dont think so, because i believe we will never reach stable price which we expecting because we are paired with dollar prices.
If we  experience and think bitcoin as real money not like investment then we can talk about stability but most of the people take it as investment.

I agree on it chief , bitcoin will be stable if it enters by the government and make it like fiat it will. But it has proven right now that bitcoin price is unstable and still gets higher and higher.

There will be a stable price soon or later its just a matter of time before this will happen in my eyes.
It can happen if the halving will also be good this year.

It will take years to get the bitcoin stable, I honestly do not see this in the upcoming years, I think that would not be realistic.
We should think about 10 years or more to get the bitcoin really stable.

I think the current price of bitcoin was not stable, the price is growing very quickly, and I hope when the price is high, the price will be stable bitcoin back together are like the previous

When the bitcoin market capitalization is as high as the gold, its price will be as stable as the gold.

Probably the price can back to stable again like before after the price fall down to $500, i've think trader will try create new botom price for bitcoin.

I think the bitcoin price will be around $570 level until the halving time. Then it will rise to around $700.

Bitcoin is now stable at all and that is because you already can see now that the value of Bitcoin is rising slowly so that is really nice for people with already Bitcoin.
They have now just to wait and see for what will happen later with Bitcoin.

I do not like it when the price is stable for to long because it will prevent the chance that we are able to make mmoney with Bitcoin. When the price is stable Bitcoin is somewhat dying at that time.

Stability is good for the bitcoin price. When it is stable, more people will invest in it. The more people invest, the higher the price.

Those fast pumps are making me sick. If you think bitcoin will rise endlessly till 1000$ or more, than you are delusional. There will be a huge dump soon and  you don't want to get caught in that shitstorm.

A slow rise is a lot better for bitcoin.

I do not like it at all when the price is stable because you never know when it is going to change and you just have to wait. The price being stable for too long has people quit Bitcoin before.

i dont think that is a good idea if the bitcoin has a stable value there will be allot of people stop investing into the coin because they cant make any money anymore with it because the price wont rise anymore.

Stable price does not mean the price will not rise. I think if the price rise 1% a week and does not drop 1% a week is stable.

It is quite difficult to achieve that. The price volatility is more than 10% a week. If it is 5%, it is already stable.

weren't they saying the same thing when we skyrocketed to $450? lol nothing happen we rised even more, i think we will see 1k soon, and it will be stable, not huge dumping after it, like many think

I never thought that it could stabilize prices on a specified range and to be honest I have never seen stable prices in an investment.

It is all relative. If the volatility of the bitcoin price is within 5% in a month, I think that is quite stable.

Its difficult to expect price stability from bitcoin, as that is never possible and it will keep on fluctuating on regular basis and we should make best use of price volatility to make profits.

a stable bitcoin price will never happen and that is only because if it happen there will not so many people are interested to the coin because they cant get any profit with it.

The value of Bitcoin is now going to be higher and you can even see that the value of Bitcoin will be higher and that is perfect for people with already Bitcoin.
They just have only to wait for a higher value and sell it on the right moment when they can earn profit.

Smart traders can make good profits even with slow moving markets. But yes, volatility is a key aspect for traders to invest into Bitcoin. I personally prefer the volatility to remain as it is right now. Where else can you gain 50-100% in a short time whilst trading. ;D

you are correct, people wouldnt be interested in bitcoins at all in my opinion if the price wouldnt give a chance to make you money

hopefully bitcoin price will never be stable as it would be really boring as gold in my opinion

now we should not have to think for the price to go down as with that people will leave bitcoin and the price then will start to decrease more and will not come back to higher value again.

I do not like it when the price is stable for to long because at that point I cannot make any money. So that is why the people sometimes say that the Bitcoin is going to be dead in the future.

I think for a stable price for 2 years, the actual price level is too low, or to high, as some already have pointed out. If Bitcoin's adoption grows, the price should rise.
But if it fails to do so, or a real competitor is about to emerge, then probably many "holders" will cash out and price should be lower.

Bitcoin is a deflationary, constantly artificially limited currency. It moves rapidly when compared to most financial systems, and because of this the value is basically forced to rise constantly to make up for the limits being imposed. The price will nearly never be stagnant because of the community, the investors, the speculation and said limits.

There will be lulls in the value, yes, but those have only 4-year spreads and a lot can happen in between those 4 years.

I think the price of bitcoin will rise consistantly if there is no big pump and dump like what happened in 2013.

A stable price is definitely not what bitcoin wants for its own good, simply because some people would like to have that opportunity to get access to BTC as an investment vehicle.

Bitcoin has the potential to rise in price, and that is great.

price is rising for last month quite rapidly
price went from stable to sky rocketing
lets see how it will be for this and next month

I becomes more concerned now. If the price keeps on rising at this rate, there will be a big crash very soon.

yes last time price went up and then went huge down after 3-4 month price went up 5 times i expect something similar this time

The bitcoin price is still very volatile. Some time people have too much hope and drive the price too high.

I think the price now is quite reasonable. It will be just stay around here for the next few months to consolidate.

price is now little off probably cuz of this brexit thing i dont if this is just another minor set back or this will change things for good
will this influence everything no just with btc , i mean on gold and oil 2

The bitcoin is too small, the big fund mangers who are worried about the Brexit will not notice the bitcoin.

The bitcoin community needs to promote the bitcoin more so that the price will rise more to attract more users.

I am promoting the bitcoin to my friends and neighbours. Some of them now understands the bitcoin.

Actually nobody can predict the stable price for bitcoin recently it going up and down very quickly, I think it is more stable above $600 so that is why it have pretty good chance for next floor above $700 very soon before block get halving.

The price will mainly trade between $600 to 700 in the next few months. But it may drop below $600 briefly.

everything is possible, but i think the $600 price level will get supported long enough to not let it fall below it. otherwise it would be quite sad. of course there is always money to be made whether the price goes up or down, but i am also interested in seeing the price climb up steadily, and not fall back to before block halving prices.

After the halving, the mining cost for some home miners will be $600. So $600 is a good support level.

The next bitcoin mining difficulty adjustment will drop about 1%. It seems some people's cost is higher than $630.

It seems the next bitcoin mining difficulty adjustment will drop about 0.1%. So the efficient miners have replaced the old miners.

So there is no need to worry about the block time after the halving. The market has already adjust itself.

According to https://bitcoinwisdom.com/, the bitcoin price is quite stable at the moment, within 5% for the alst week.

Yea and should stay like that for next 2-3 month then might go high not sky highbut some increase of 100-200 in price

i dont think the price is going to be that stable over time, to be honest it should start going up pretty soon because people are adopting and buying bitcoins

There are more trading in the Ethereum at present. Before the ETC dies, traders will have less interest in bitcoin.

Yeah, but we'll need some news or something about bitcoin. The price wouldn't move much just by word of mouth.

The next news to drive up the price is the 2MB block size implementation or the release of SegWit.

Any estimates when this will arrive? I haven't read btc news or that part of the forum for awhile already.

According to the Hong Kong meeting consensus, it should happen in July this year. But today is already 30th.

I have to say I don't understand the delay. This should have been implemented months ago. The moment when the bitcoin community started to have a consensus about it, the developer should have implemented and push the update. The more delay we see, the more negative the outcome will be. That's why i am for a instant implementation of Segwit.

In time the price will become stable, but the question is how long it will take. My perception is that we will see a couple of years of more users coming in before the price will become stable.
But it can happen earlier if after segwit more investors join the bitcoin markets.

I think it will take 10 to 20 years for the bitcoin to be stable. The market cap of the bitcoin should be 5 trillion dollars.

currently the price of bitcoin is stable because there is a stable supply and demand of bitcoin in the market whenever any variation took place either in supply or demand then the price of bitcoin will decrease or increase according to the situation, like if from tomorrow the demand increased from the supply then from tomorrow the price f bitcoin will start to  increase much higher.

The price of bitcoin dropped 10% from 30 days ago and 4 % from 7 days. Maybe we do not have to worry about that.

the stability would be great if bitcoin price would be high in the sky, right now im a bit worried about it to be honest because the bitcoin price is either stable or going down

the stability is never gonna last with bitcoin in the near future. because we are not at that stage yet. maybe in a couple of years with a lot more adoption but not now.
the market is just getting exciting again with a new opportunity to buy showing up.

it mean the 2MB block size implementation just a myth, come on guys,can't count on it anymore,maybe the factor because someone just disagree with the block increase,they say it could potentially slow down the transaction and make the fee far expensive

not necessary but it might be like that
mainly here are hopping for that cuz it will increase price bad side might be that
in any case all are just rumors and predictions about it until it comes if it comes i wont say is it good or bad

The stability is actually a dual-edge sword because whichever way the price goes, there will be winners and losers. Presently, volatility is to be expected because only a few people (or groups) have control over the price and the small ones like us are merely speculating what the turn out will be for the foreseeable future.

We do not want the bitcoin price to be flat. We would like it to rise between 2 to 5% every month.

We want that to happen, but there's no guarantee that is would happen and it is more often than not more likely going to go up all that much each month. You have to convince the investors that Bitcoin is worthy of going up 2%-5%, but right now the market isn't convinced and it is slipping, and rightfully so. Honestly a flat price until a bull run happens is probably the best thing.

For now we not experience of rises these days and weeks even every month the price of bitcoin right now is very low and i think it takes a long journey again to see that the price will increase again back to the high price..

you can see that the price of bitcoin fall down about 100 USD just in few days, so i am thinking that this is an artificial down fall and some people just want to get infinity from it therefore i am hopeful that the price of bitcoin will increase very soon and will reach to its original position in a very very short period of time.

Just keep hope for the better future of bitcoin, the price of bitcoin will sooner come back to a higher value, I think it is only a little dump and now we can see the buyers increase much more so we can expect the price to be increased sooner within a few days.

The bitcoin price will stay above $450 at least. There is not fundamentally wrong with the bitcoin actually.

I think the bitcoin will trade between $550 to 600 in the next few weeks before it rises to $700 again.

I do not think there will big buy into the bitcoin in the next few months. The market is more interested in good altcoins such as Ethereum.

I think that's not true, because I am sure all the people who do that only a few people understand about trading altcoin. now everyone will just keep waiting until the price goes up bitcoin back, during the wait for the price rises they collect as much as possible bitcoin. So this does not depend on the knowledge and mindset of everyone

For bitcoin stable or quiet, we can get a tremendous advantage. Because when prices come down we have an extraordinary opportunity to fold the duplicate bitcoin with very high and certainly when we managed to get a lot of bitcoin when low prices then will awaits us big profits when the price of the bitcoin remarkable increase

I would like to say that bitcoin price is stable at present moment. In future near this end of this year bitcoin price will increase upto 800$ and it will stable through out next year. So hope for the good one and everything become normal.

Hoping for something to be all right won't bring you anything. Bitcoin is too unpredictable for that.

Having said that, the current "stability" might actually bore certain large traders and make them dump as result. That's why I am prepared for literally anything right now.

The stable price could attract some big whales and pump the price a lot after they have got enough coins before the pump.

I am sure whales have done their accumulating at the time the price was very close to $500, and the lucky whales have even got sub $500 coins at the bottom of the recent dump.

I really see no reason for a pump at this point. If we will see a pump then it will be coming out of nothing from China.