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Title: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 01, 2012, 09:49:03 PM I know there's been some discussion on this at various sources but what are the latest strategies to prepare for, and deal with this type of scenario? Specifically, what are the specific actions that one can take so he can continue to transact with bitcoin?
Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: kokojie on December 01, 2012, 10:00:14 PM The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out. Though if you are talking about blacking out access to the Internet, then I guess that's a possibility. In that case, electronic bitcoin transaction will be impossible, though physical bitcoins can still be used as cash.
Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 01, 2012, 10:05:36 PM The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out. Though if you are talking about blacking out access to the Internet, then I guess that's a possibility. In that case, bitcoin transaction will be impossible. Yes, agreed. But let's talk about the specific methods of changing our mode of operation. What would you do to continue transacting/protecting your bitcoin? The average person only knows the internet that they pay a monthly fee for through an ISP. EDIT: Perhaps a basic "how to" guide would be useful so dummies like me could prepare in advance. :P Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 01, 2012, 10:19:30 PM I know da2ce spoke about some "sneaker net" type solutions using freenet but I think that project has died due to lack of interest. (see http://agoristradio.com/?p=347 )
With certain parts of the world currently dealing with internet blackouts it would be great to develop multiple strategies for broadcasting transactions. I know there is also the "bitcoincard" project which is interesting as well. Here is another way of posing this question: What if the "internet" is shut down in your country tomorrow - what would you do with your bitcoin? Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: hazek on December 01, 2012, 10:21:26 PM The only thing you can't do without the internet locally is spend your coins. You can receive them, you don't need to worry about the blockchain, you just can't spend them. For that you need someone who does have access to the network in order to send the transaction.
I could envision a service that would allow incoming telephone calls where users could just tell their public and private key in order to make a transaction. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: cbeast on December 01, 2012, 10:29:32 PM I think this is something that bitcoincard will address. Only one card in the ad-hoc network would need access to an internet connected node. It could be land-line, wireless, or even satellite based.
Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: jago25_98 on December 01, 2012, 10:32:46 PM The problem with the question is that there are so many scenarios.
You could have a scenario like Syria, Iran or Libya, or you could have something bigger. In the case of the middle east blackouts it's probably as simple as buy a sat phone and hope it doesn't get jammed, or put a ham radio on the back of a truck and hope you don't get huff-duff located. Or carrier pigeon? Don't need much bandwidth for an offline transaction, even encrypted with PGP. However, I've found that things rarely work out how you expect. First of all blackouts are usually unexpected. Syrian rebels were lucky and saw it coming. Still, you usually find you're missing someone's PGP key or your copy of Skype is out of date or whatever. Or the radio doesn't work because there power supply is too bad etc etc. So you could pass offline transactions to someone who has connectivity to the blockchain. But I'd like to think that Bitcoin could somehow carry on without the internet, per sec. People passing round the blockchain offline and doing offline transactions, something like a digital huwala, but the connectivity needed is so high it doesn't seem at all feasible. How's about a series of bunkers with the blockchain passively updated over radio (receive only)? Or a copy downloadable via tor? All this I think though isn't a big deal. I think a much bigger threat would be the USA outlawing/confiscating, shutting it down as much as possible, then 51% other attacks all at the same time Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 01, 2012, 10:33:27 PM The only thing you can't do without the internet locally is spend your coins. You can receive them, you don't need to worry about the blockchain, you just can't spend them. For that you need someone who does have access to the network in order to send the transaction. I could envision a service that would allow incoming telephone calls where users could just tell their public and private key in order to make a transaction. Interesting. I could see the potential for that. The receiver of the payment would have to receive confirmation of the transaction - by calling the same service I presume. Both parties would therefore have to trust this service and the service would become a target. It would need some type of self-defense protocols. I could also see physical bitcoins (ala Casascius Coins) trading at a premium provided that they are issued by a trusted issuer. They would already have to be in circulation though in order to make much of a difference. It appears to me that this type of scenario (internet blackout) would force most people into barter situations where physical goods, gold, silver and Casascius Coins would be the predominant medium of exchange until internet access was restored. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Stephen Gornick on December 01, 2012, 10:52:01 PM I know there's been some discussion on this at various sources but what are the latest strategies to prepare for, and deal with this type of scenario? Specifically, what are the specific actions that one can take so he can continue to transact with bitcoin? Operate infrastructure without chokepoints. - http://www.theFNF.org Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Gabi on December 01, 2012, 10:57:45 PM Remember connection via satellite ;)
Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: TheDarKnight on December 01, 2012, 11:02:42 PM Remember connection via satellite ;) But. isn't that even easier to blackout than any other route??? We don't put sats up the, the Governors do, and we couldn't keep 'em there cos we aren't military.Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: rexcoin on December 01, 2012, 11:04:16 PM Well the government can for example shut down peoples internet (as in the case with the dns keylogger)
If the government one days cuts off verizon or cable or dial up or whatever internet you use, you could do this (while your internet is working) Now i bet there is a easier way to do this, im just not GREAT with windows or linux programming. anyway: 1 - Get a twilio.com account (its a voice and sms api) 2 - Get a local numbeer from twilio 3 - write a script that will do ether of the following: 3.1 - Translate a websites data into a alphanumeric code (encrypted most likely?)(from your server side NOTE if your country blocks internet it would be smart to use another country for the server), then write a program for your Operating system that would translate the alphanumeric code into a webpage. OR 3.2 - Translate a websites data into a sound-type code (kinda like dial up)(from your server side NOTE if your country blocks internet it would be smart to use another country for the server), then write a program for your Operating system that would translate the sound-like code into a webpage. --NOTE-- I know 3.1 option is REALLY slow and might take 1 day to create a webpage - this is the worst case type thing. 3.2 is more like dial up which is slow but its better then no internet. I was looking for a dial up type thing to use with twilio but no luck. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: rexcoin on December 01, 2012, 11:06:30 PM Remember connection via satellite ;) But. isn't that even easier to blackout than any other route??? We don't put sats up the, the Governors do, and we couldn't keep 'em there cos we aren't military.I doubt for example if USA shuts down ALL internet that every satellite will be taking down (unless USA shoots them down, which would end up in world war 3 most liekly), other country have them and im sure if usa does that people will work with other countrys to help us internet people. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Rassah on December 01, 2012, 11:21:54 PM +1 on bitcoincard.
If the scenario is that our internet is still accessible locally, but blocked out from the rest of the world/country (great firewall of china example), we'll still be able to trade Bitcoin here, as long as ONE node somewhere in the system has a connection to the outside (we just may not be able to mine due to delays in block chain propagation). If worse comes to worse, and AT&T, Verizon, Comcast, and whoever else all go dark, at least in larger, more closely grouped together cities people may be able to switch their WiFi's to open Ad-Hoc mode, and set up a wireless mesh of sorts. It won't be easy, and will require both people with technical know-how knocking on doors, and WiFi owners consenting to it (likely out of desperation). I do really really really REALLY look forward to when wireless mesh networks can be easily set up and be practical. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: kokojie on December 01, 2012, 11:44:46 PM Remember connection via satellite ;) But. isn't that even easier to blackout than any other route??? We don't put sats up the, the Governors do, and we couldn't keep 'em there cos we aren't military.I think he's talking about the case for example if Iran's government black out the Internet for the people of Iran, then satellite would definitely be an option. Iranian government can't take down other country's satellites. Satellite companies can provide people in Iran satellite internet (though I guess you have to smuggle equipment into Iran first). Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Herodes on December 01, 2012, 11:47:16 PM I know there's been some discussion on this at various sources but what are the latest strategies to prepare for, and deal with this type of scenario? Specifically, what are the specific actions that one can take so he can continue to transact with bitcoin? Before this can be answered, you need to define the question properly. "How do we deal with an internet blackout?" How would you define 'dealing' in this context, and what do you define as 'internet' and more specifically, what do you define as 'an internet blackout'. We need precise questions to be able to answer them, or else we need to make assumptions that may be quite different from what you originally had in mind. The reason you should define it more clearly is that 'The Internet' itself is designed especially for the purpose of never 'blacking out'. Redundant routes is what ensures this, and even if a country has shut down their internet, access could be possible through satellite. And in a situation where a mesh net is used, the state could have special police with equipment searching for and punishing participants in such a network. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: cbeast on December 02, 2012, 12:00:37 AM I know there's been some discussion on this at various sources but what are the latest strategies to prepare for, and deal with this type of scenario? Specifically, what are the specific actions that one can take so he can continue to transact with bitcoin? Before this can be answered, you need to define the question properly. "How do we deal with an internet blackout?" How would you define 'dealing' in this context, and what do you define as 'internet' and more specifically, what do you define as 'an internet blackout'. We need precise questions to be able to answer them, or else we need to make assumptions that may be quite different from what you originally had in mind. The reason you should define it more clearly is that 'The Internet' itself is designed especially for the purpose of never 'blacking out'. Redundant routes is what ensures this, and even if a country has shut down their internet, access could be possible through satellite. And in a situation where a mesh net is used, the state could have special police with equipment searching for and punishing participants in such a network. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 02, 2012, 12:00:53 AM I know there's been some discussion on this at various sources but what are the latest strategies to prepare for, and deal with this type of scenario? Specifically, what are the specific actions that one can take so he can continue to transact with bitcoin? Before this can be answered, you need to define the question properly. "How do we deal with an internet blackout?" How would you define 'dealing' in this context, and what do you define as 'internet' and more specifically, what do you define as 'an internet blackout'. We need precise questions to be able to answer them, or else we need to make assumptions that may be quite different from what you originally had in mind. The reason you should define it more clearly is that 'The Internet' itself is designed especially for the purpose of never 'blacking out'. Redundant routes is what ensures this, and even if a country has shut down their internet, access could be possible through satellite. And in a situation where a mesh net is used, the state could have special police with equipment searching for and punishing participants in such a network. Yes, you highlight the difficulty of the question. There are multiple attack vectors and, I assume, multiple methods of countering each of them. I do not know all of those attack vectors and I know much less about how to deal with each of them. Perhaps others on this thread can post the most likely threats and their suggested countermeasures. Some good ideas have already been offered. I also recognize that "the State" is not as "all powerful" as some people make them out to be but, nonetheless, they must still be respected and not under-estimated. The question "what if the internet is blocked?" is a common objection to bitcoin's usefulness and my purpose of this thread is to help us understand/prepare for such a potential "Mad Max" event and, additionally, be better prepared to answer this important objection from bitcoin critics. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Herodes on December 02, 2012, 12:30:29 AM Holy fuck you are a paranoid little bitch today! Jesus, if we have to worry about Nazis hiding under the bad, we have bigger problems than how we pay for our pizza. Hm. I don't know why you're trolling. The millitary in many countries will use all force necessary to control information in a state of war. When we talk about a blackout, it's usually do to unrest in a country, for instance the govt. is shutting it down to prevent rebels from communicating and planning. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Herodes on December 02, 2012, 12:33:42 AM Yes, you highlight the difficulty of the question. There are multiple attack vectors and, I assume, multiple methods of countering each of them. I do not know all of those attack vectors and I know much less about how to deal with each of them. Perhaps others on this thread can post the most likely threats and their suggested countermeasures. Some good ideas have already been offered. I also recognize that "the State" is not as "all powerful" as some people make them out to be but, nonetheless, they must still be respected and not under-estimated. The question "what if the internet is blocked?" is a common objection to bitcoin's usefulness and my purpose of this thread is to help us understand/prepare for such a potential "Mad Max" event and, additionally, be better prepared to answer this important objection from bitcoin critics. In general, your bitcoins would be safe as long as the block chain exists and you have copies of your wallet. This could be local or remote copies. As stated previously, you could still receive coins to your adresses, but unless you had some mean to send them, it would be difficult. I see a lot of interesting protocols for this has been suggested in this thread. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: misterbigg on December 02, 2012, 12:45:48 AM It's entirely plausible to expect Internet access in a certain geographic region to be unavailable for days, possibly weeks, in the event of temporary anarchy. Everyone here understands how regulation and economic forces can devastate a society, sending it back significantly in terms of technology and standard of living.
I think the best way to deal with this is to have a small amount invested in physical precious metals, like one ounce gold and silver rounds. These are more readily spent if there's no electricity and the local currency collapses. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Herodes on December 02, 2012, 12:49:48 AM It's entirely plausible to expect Internet access in a certain geographic region to be unavailable for days, possibly weeks, in the event of temporary anarchy. Everyone here understands how regulation and economic forces can devastate a society, sending it back significantly in terms of technology and standard of living. I think the best way to deal with this is to have a small amount invested in physical precious metals, like one ounce gold and silver rounds. These are more readily spent if there's no electricity and the local currency collapses. Yes, and for those having the resources, perhaps investing in a backup of sorts (sattelite connection / ham radio connection) and solar panels / wind mills, could be an idea? Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 02, 2012, 12:54:55 AM It's entirely plausible to expect Internet access in a certain geographic region to be unavailable for days, possibly weeks, in the event of temporary anarchy. Everyone here understands how regulation and economic forces can devastate a society, sending it back significantly in terms of technology and standard of living. I think the best way to deal with this is to have a small amount invested in physical precious metals, like one ounce gold and silver rounds. These are more readily spent if there's no electricity and the local currency collapses. Yes, and for those having the resources, perhaps investing in a backup of sorts (sattelite connection / ham radio connection) and solar panels / wind mills, could be an idea? Agreed. You would possess valuable assets that, in turn, make you valuable to your local community. This is one more asset/service you can offer in trade to help sustain yourself. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 02, 2012, 01:06:21 AM Here's a relevant article to this discussion:
Syria's Internet Outage and the Future of Information Warfare http://www.activistpost.com/2012/12/syrias-internet-outage-and-future-of.html Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: miscreanity on December 02, 2012, 01:25:13 AM It's entirely plausible to expect Internet access in a certain geographic region to be unavailable for days, possibly weeks, in the event of temporary anarchy. Everyone here understands how regulation and economic forces can devastate a society, sending it back significantly in terms of technology and standard of living. I think the best way to deal with this is to have a small amount invested in physical precious metals, like one ounce gold and silver rounds. These are more readily spent if there's no electricity and the local currency collapses. Agreed regarding precious metals. By the end of 2013, basic meshnet infrastructure will have been rolled out. Exclusive reliance upon it will result in slow transmission speeds, but so long as there is power, there will be Internet access. Sometime in 2014-15, an even more resilient network should be gaining traction and capable of providing more robust services. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 02, 2012, 01:34:10 AM It's entirely plausible to expect Internet access in a certain geographic region to be unavailable for days, possibly weeks, in the event of temporary anarchy. Everyone here understands how regulation and economic forces can devastate a society, sending it back significantly in terms of technology and standard of living. I think the best way to deal with this is to have a small amount invested in physical precious metals, like one ounce gold and silver rounds. These are more readily spent if there's no electricity and the local currency collapses. Agreed regarding precious metals. By the end of 2013, basic meshnet infrastructure will have been rolled out. Exclusive reliance upon it will result in slow transmission speeds, but so long as there is power, there will be Internet access. Sometime in 2014-15, an even more resilient network should be gaining traction and capable of providing more robust services. That sounds great. How does one get involved and help move this along? Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: BitBlitz on December 02, 2012, 01:57:14 AM In scenarios where countries or large Geos are isolated form the rest of the Internet, I'd be concerned about which of the two blockchains will orphan the other when connectivity is restored.
Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Herodes on December 02, 2012, 01:58:27 AM has there been any larger test cases for a mesh net ?
Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: DoomDumas on December 02, 2012, 02:53:51 AM I found this : https://commotionwireless.net/[/b]]https://commotionwireless.net/ (http://[b)
If this project mature enough and gain a lot of participant, this could be an alternative in the event of an internet blackout ! very interesting ! Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: BkkCoins on December 02, 2012, 03:36:55 AM It may be helpful to set up some standards for handling transaction verification via voice calls or radio. It's very hard to say addresses and other long strings by voice reliably.
The Electrum client uses a set of words that are standardized and readable without confusion. It might be handy to create tools for taking addresses, keys, transactions, or signatures and converting them to readable word lists that can be verbally used to verify or send trx. I wouldn't mind adapting code and writing such tools but I'd need help to determine what's useful and what's not. So given certain scenarios people have for trying to do something by voice with no net, or even by SMS or mail, what bits of info need to be exchanged? Having a map of what's viable to do this way, a tool for encoding the right data when needed, may just make it feasible in situations. Without having it worked out in advance it would be hard to know what to do or what is secure or even that it may be doable. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Littleshop on December 02, 2012, 04:26:35 AM Remember connection via satellite ;) But. isn't that even easier to blackout than any other route??? We don't put sats up the, the Governors do, and we couldn't keep 'em there cos we aren't military.I think he's talking about the case for example if Iran's government black out the Internet for the people of Iran, then satellite would definitely be an option. Iranian government can't take down other country's satellites. Satellite companies can provide people in Iran satellite internet (though I guess you have to smuggle equipment into Iran first). Actually they can take out satellites by jamming. This jamming can be local on the downlink side (possible to get around) or be on the uplink side (much harder to get around). http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/iran-accused-of-jamming-satellites-300145.html If you have good techs with equipment you can do microwave links in some areas to bridge. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 02, 2012, 04:38:56 AM has there been any larger test cases for a mesh net ? Yes, and there is an org that is doing testing of a wireless mesh WAN, although I can't think of the name just now. I believe they are working in Arizona right now, but they already have a nationally allocated frequency band license from the FCC, so this is no fly by night operation. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 02, 2012, 04:39:59 AM In scenarios where countries or large Geos are isolated form the rest of the Internet, I'd be concerned about which of the two blockchains will orphan the other when connectivity is restored. There are ways to determine if you are on the small side of a network split, but none have been implimeted in any client yet, as far as I know. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 02, 2012, 04:47:09 AM It's entirely plausible to expect Internet access in a certain geographic region to be unavailable for days, possibly weeks, in the event of temporary anarchy. Everyone here understands how regulation and economic forces can devastate a society, sending it back significantly in terms of technology and standard of living. I think the best way to deal with this is to have a small amount invested in physical precious metals, like one ounce gold and silver rounds. These are more readily spent if there's no electricity and the local currency collapses. PM are not really a solution in the near term, as the vast majority of people have zero practical experience with silver or gold coins, in order to recognize them when they need to. It's relatively easy to create credible fakes of gold plated tungsten while the lights still work that would fool 98%+ of the population after the lights go out. This condition would last for months, until people began to figure out how to recognize the fakes; and until then most people simply aren't going to trust some guy with gold coins. Silver has less of a problem here, and is useful in other ways for disinfection, etc, but most people aren't going to have need for silver anyway. Barter items, such as common firearm caliber ammo, are better for the near term. Bullets are already money anyway. They are made of several commodities, are themselves useful, come in common units, are readily recognizeable to those who might wish to trade them, and any one is pretty much interchangeable with any other, and they don't rot. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Stephen Gornick on December 02, 2012, 04:55:22 AM has there been any larger test cases for a mesh net ? Yes, and there is an org that is doing testing of a wireless mesh WAN, although I can't think of the name just now. I believe they are working in Arizona right now, but they already have a nationally allocated frequency band license from the FCC, so this is no fly by night operation. Sounds like Free Network Foundation. They have a nationwide license for 3.6 GHz (for backhaul of a Kilometer-wide range). They are operating a mesh in Kansas City right now. - http://commons.thefnf.org/index.php Incidentally there's another recent thread with some overlap: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ? - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=127849.0 Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: cypherdoc on December 02, 2012, 05:38:32 AM Here's a relevant article to this discussion: Syria's Internet Outage and the Future of Information Warfare http://www.activistpost.com/2012/12/syrias-internet-outage-and-future-of.html does anyone else see the irony of the State being actively involved in developing the very tools that will eventually undermine the immense power they so lust? the Internet itself was developed by the military in conjunction with academia, Tor was developed by the Dept of the Navy, and now NATO is developing the Internet in a Suitcase? no wonder i'm so bullish on Bitcoin. this was a great article, as i had articulated earlier this week that the rebels, in fact, had just as much of a motive to disrupt Internet communications within Syria as the gov't. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: FreeMoney on December 02, 2012, 06:35:34 AM My bitcoin? What would I do with my day and my life? Walk around and look for berries I guess, maybe fashion a slingshot and take out the fattest squirrels.
Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 02, 2012, 03:52:33 PM Here are some relevant comments as well:
What happens to bitcoin if the internet were to be controlled by the government? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/141j2t/what_happens_to_bitcoin_if_the_internet_were_to/ Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: miscreanity on December 02, 2012, 05:23:42 PM does anyone else see the irony of the State being actively involved in developing the very tools that will eventually undermine the immense power they so lust? the Internet itself was developed by the military in conjunction with academia, Tor was developed by the Dept of the Navy, and now NATO is developing the Internet in a Suitcase? no wonder i'm so bullish on Bitcoin. Digging their own graves. Delicious, isn't it? Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: cypherdoc on December 02, 2012, 06:27:17 PM does anyone else see the irony of the State being actively involved in developing the very tools that will eventually undermine the immense power they so lust? the Internet itself was developed by the military in conjunction with academia, Tor was developed by the Dept of the Navy, and now NATO is developing the Internet in a Suitcase? no wonder i'm so bullish on Bitcoin. Digging their own graves. Delicious, isn't it? yes it is. where can i buy one of those suitcases? do they come with rollers? i'll take one in red with leather. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: phatsphere on December 02, 2012, 06:45:04 PM has someone actual experience with byzantinium linux? -> http://project-byzantium.org/
I don't know how robust it actually is, but i could envision that there could be an bitcoind installed and ready to fire up. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: cypherdoc on December 02, 2012, 08:34:57 PM does anyone else see the irony of the State being actively involved in developing the very tools that will eventually undermine the immense power they so lust? the Internet itself was developed by the military in conjunction with academia, Tor was developed by the Dept of the Navy, and now NATO is developing the Internet in a Suitcase? no wonder i'm so bullish on Bitcoin. Digging their own graves. Delicious, isn't it? have u heard of Saddam Hussein? Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 02, 2012, 09:06:08 PM has there been any larger test cases for a mesh net ? Yes, and there is an org that is doing testing of a wireless mesh WAN, although I can't think of the name just now. I believe they are working in Arizona right now, but they already have a nationally allocated frequency band license from the FCC, so this is no fly by night operation. Sounds like Free Network Foundation. They have a nationwide license for 3.6 GHz (for backhaul of a Kilometer-wide range). Yeah, that's it. In addition, if a link were to exclude whole blocks, the transaction traffic that bitcoin produces isn't particularly burdensome. A classic POTS link using old modems, or simply just a pair of wires, could keep the bitcoin network from splitting. Most of the time, even 6 blocks and hour wouldn't be much of a burden for a modem connection right now. And many people would be surprised what modern hams can do with shortwave transcievers connected to sound cards. In the end, a relatively small usb drive that crosses the divide every now and then would keep things from getting to far out of synch. We tend to forget that there are other ways to move data than the Internet. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 02, 2012, 09:13:29 PM Would there be a good option for higher speeds over shorter distances? Define higher speeds and shorter distances. Generally speaking, the shorter distance, the higher the bandwidth that can be practially maintained. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: cypherdoc on December 02, 2012, 09:16:51 PM EDIT: Was way off topic with that, sry. Not sure on your meaning about Saddam. Saddam was the US's tool against Iran in the Iran/Iraq War that went on for years and killed thousands of Muslims. they supported him with all the finest weapons. and then looked what happened. how many trillions did we waste on invading Iraq? Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 02, 2012, 09:31:01 PM Would there be a good option for higher speeds over shorter distances? Define higher speeds and shorter distances. Generally speaking, the shorter distance, the higher the bandwidth that can be practially maintained. It's not difficult to create a point-to-point wifi link using beam antennas this way, if there is a line of sight. Non-line-of-sight systems would need to be slower, require special infrastructure, require a ham license or some combination of these. Dash7 is good to a klick, and meshes by design, but is significantly slower than wifi. I'm still waiting for an android phone to become available with a built-in Dash7 transceiver, and then I'm upgrading. Samsung has given me some lip service on this one, but the rest of the phone manufacters just ignore me. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: BkkCoins on December 03, 2012, 01:03:27 AM does anyone else see the irony of the State being actively involved in developing the very tools that will eventually undermine the immense power they so lust? the Internet itself was developed by the military in conjunction with academia, Tor was developed by the Dept of the Navy, and now NATO is developing the Internet in a Suitcase? no wonder i'm so bullish on Bitcoin. Digging their own graves. Delicious, isn't it? The first wave of defense against Bitcoin will be to turn the public against it with media messages. My guess is that CP and Terrorism will be the two main prongs of that. I don't think they worry about mesh networks, or they won't until they are even considering shutting down the net. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: miscreanity on December 03, 2012, 03:50:33 AM ... does it make sense to give away tools that could later be used against you? It only makes sense if you have something to counter that system. It does when it makes sense to use every tool available to ensure success. Would you game the voting system to secure your reelection if there would be no repercussions? Or maybe to make sure that access to natural resources remains in place... Providing tools might not be a choice. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: interlagos on December 03, 2012, 05:34:08 PM ... Tor given away, sha, now meshnets, maybe handing out freedom is part of the masterplan but it doesn't fit in well with the rest of the script... They are bored with being unchallenged and therefore setting up the playground for the next generation games. I don't think people in the intelligence and military circles are concerned about survival, they like to play games with very advanced toys, but they need to find the opponent first. The other way to look at it is that military is tired of being at the mercy of central banks and they thought: "Hey, we're smarter than those guys... why work for them when we can create a better system?" There are also white hats in any three letter agency, I'd bet. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: mintymark on December 03, 2012, 06:20:35 PM The internet blackout in Syria got me thinking about this too.
I see two possibilities. A transmitter could be set up that continiously broadcasts the block chain. Several of them in different places perhaps. They could be jammed, or falsefied so perhaps more than one would be needed. Its possible this could be even on the longwave band, or on something more modern like encrypted CDMA on a band of frequencies. As well as current transactions, blockchain history would also be periodically transmitted, perhaps using a special protocol that was able to transmit current and historical data simultaneously. This gives you the ability to receive and verify reception of bitcoins, but not initiate transactions. To initiate transactions there are several possibilities that I see. a) Tempory and expensive satellite phone connection. b) Possible use of ham radio or phone to get a trusted 3rd party to send your bitcoins to a number of smaller 1 use accounts. The private keys to these could then be passed to others to make a transaction. They have to empty the accounts in your presence so that they know you cannot using similar methods. Not great but possible. This is for the future not now though, if we decided to do this. c) Transactions using other ultra low bandwith mesage systems (eg carrier pidgeon, SMS, air mail letter) and 3rd parties, trusted or untrusted. This in conjunction with b) d) Mesh networks, which will eventually become efficient, cheap and ubiquitous in countries like Syria. But this is for the future, not now, but will certainly happen. Thats my take. Is it needed? I would say certainly yes, it will become increasingly common and easy for governments to 'black out' the internet when something they dont like happens. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: 2112 on December 03, 2012, 06:29:06 PM A transmitter could be set up that continiously broadcasts the block chain. Several of them in different places perhaps. They could be jammed, or falsefied so perhaps more than one would be needed. Its possible this could be even on the longwave band, or on something more modern like encrypted CDMA on a band of frequencies. As well as current transactions, blockchain history would also be periodically transmitted, perhaps using a special protocol that was able to transmit current and historical data simultaneously. Moon bounce is the word. Let them shoot the Moon down to disable the radio and laser links!https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92781.msg1024491#msg1024491 Support the free trade on Earth by banking on the Moon! Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 03, 2012, 06:55:09 PM The internet blackout in Syria got me thinking about this too. I see two possibilities. A transmitter could be set up that continiously broadcasts the block chain. Several of them in different places perhaps. They could be jammed, or falsefied so perhaps more than one would be needed. Its possible this could be even on the longwave band, or on something more modern like encrypted CDMA on a band of frequencies. As well as current transactions, blockchain history would also be periodically transmitted, perhaps using a special protocol that was able to transmit current and historical data simultaneously. Shortwave DRM can do that, no problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Radio_Mondiale So could a bit of rented digital satillite downlink once each day, such as is used to deliver daily educational shows to distant elementary schools. Of course, then someone needs the sat dish and receiver/decoder; while DRM just needs a quality shortwave receiver that can be plugged into the sound port of a computer. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: miscreanity on December 04, 2012, 02:42:21 AM Moon bounce is the word. Let them shoot the Moon down to disable the radio and laser links! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92781.msg1024491#msg1024491 Support the free trade on Earth by banking off the Moon! FTFY ;D Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: miscreanity on December 04, 2012, 02:47:59 AM A good synopsis (http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/12/a-serious-problem-for-bitcoins.html?showComment=1354500128129#c7006163640757954337) provided by Trace Mayer. Quoted below with links added.
Quote from: Trace Mayer One of the most remarkable aspects of Bitcoin is its censorship resistance. First, any bitcoins stored in the blockchain will be safe. Private keys can be created extremely easily and securely using tools like www.brainwallet.org (the code is open-source and can be downloaded so an Internet connection is not needed if one prepares before hand by making a brainwallet and establishing the 'firstbits' for easy payments). Second, is the ability to transfer bitcoins and use them as a currency. This is where Bitcoin's censorship resistance takes on Godzilla like attributes compared to alternatives like cash or gold which can exist only in one place at one time and are easily identified due to their physical nature. Using the source code from brainwallet.org (http://brainwallet.org/) it is possible to generate Bitcoin transactions offline. Then all that is required is to broadcast the transaction to the network. Jack mentions a few of the great alternatives like the mesh net, bitcoincard, etc. A local mesh net could be setup and cover a large distance, many square miles, and there would only need to be one connection to the worldwide Internet and transactions could be submitted and processed. They could also be collected and batched; this would allow trade to take place and eventually be settled. Because Bitcoin transactions are small, usually less than 1,000 bytes which is tiny, they can easily be submitted via an Iridium phone or via satellite. Third, Bitcoin coupled with some of the innovations in Open Transactions (https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki), www.monetas.net (http://monetas.net/), and you could have a very powerful way to route around the politicians and Praetorian Guard. Bitcoin is already being largely used as a 'settlement currency' in a lot of cases in conjunction with Open Transactions. For an overview of Open Transactions watch this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfhbjkge4fs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfhbjkge4fs) So, in conclusion, Yes, it would be inconvenient if the Internet were drastically limited by State actors. Bitcoin could still be used pretty easily if one were prepared (had brainwallet.org source-code and an Iridium phone). In my opinion, the main problems would not be with using Bitcoin but the general economic environment of the area. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: hardcore-fs on December 04, 2012, 06:05:53 AM The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out. Though if you are talking about blacking out access to the Internet, then I guess that's a possibility. In that case, electronic bitcoin transaction will be impossible, though physical bitcoins can still be used as cash. Nonsense!!!!! War, is one example. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 04, 2012, 07:07:07 AM The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out. Though if you are talking about blacking out access to the Internet, then I guess that's a possibility. In that case, electronic bitcoin transaction will be impossible, though physical bitcoins can still be used as cash. Nonsense!!!!! War, is one example. An example of what? Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: hardcore-fs on December 04, 2012, 01:07:25 PM The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out. Though if you are talking about blacking out access to the Internet, then I guess that's a possibility. In that case, electronic bitcoin transaction will be impossible, though physical bitcoins can still be used as cash. Nonsense!!!!! War, is one example. An example of what? 1. The internet was not invented for that reason. 2. "it can not be blacked out", war is an example of it being blacked out, either in part of in full. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: cbeast on December 04, 2012, 01:34:17 PM The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out. Though if you are talking about blacking out access to the Internet, then I guess that's a possibility. In that case, electronic bitcoin transaction will be impossible, though physical bitcoins can still be used as cash. Nonsense!!!!! War, is one example. An example of what? 1. The internet was not invented for that reason. 2. "it can not be blacked out", war is an example of it being blacked out, either in part of in full. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Rassah on December 04, 2012, 04:28:25 PM 2. "it can not be blacked out", war is an example of it being blacked out, either in part of in full. Low tech war, like those waged by third world dictators, can black it out partially, and even then only temporarily. High tech war would only strengthen the internet, since it is used to communicate with troops, collect and disperse intelligence, and control remote war machines. Any threat to the internet during war would get first attention, and would be strongly defended against; defences which will become public again once the war ends. Unless you're talking about nuclear war that wipes out most of the population (or a zombie apacolypse ;D), but radioactive mutants and zombies have no use for internets, so... Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 04, 2012, 06:30:10 PM The first casualty of war is the truth, therefore any source that can offer truth must be removed. No doubt some will try. I question their practical effectiveness. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 04, 2012, 06:57:23 PM It could be worth reading up on borders and communication's, the introduction of radio must have given rise to methods of blocking it and I'd guess cables crossing borders have a lot or restrictions. Someone must have condensed all that into a paper without to many big words and there's a thread about that somewhere... Doubt there's anything to prevent bouncing signals off the moon though. Prevent it, no. Interfere with it, yes. The problem with a moonbounce is that it requires not just some high quality transmitters with highly directional dish antennas with accurate moon tracking gear, but due to the distance & scatter issues with a moonbounce, the receiving gear has to be pretty high end as well. So it takes a relatively low power jammer to screw with that, or a high quality one also pointed at and tracking the moon. If you turned up your transmission power high enough to overcome a moonbounced jammer signal, they would be able to identify your transmitter from orbital sats due to the signal leakage of your dish. Normal shortwave is much simpler, and much more effective, IMHO. The receiving gear is much cheaper, more widespread (outside of the United States) and the decoding gear is just a regular computer with a 16 bit soundcard. Sure, it'd be difficult to transmit the full blockchain, or maybe even full blocks once they start really filling up, but both block headers and loose transaction data could be transmitted continuously up to a certain point. The real beauty of the p2p network system is that not all the data must come from the same source. If your broadcast only transmitted the last block header and the myrkle tree, smarter clients than are currently available could piece together full blocks by collecting the loose transaction data from other sources, and there will be other sources, evenif it's only the occasionally smuggled blockchain on a usb drive two days out of date. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 04, 2012, 07:12:19 PM Maybe the bittorrent download implementation could handle that kind of thing? A torrent of the blockchain would do well, to a point. The torrent file would have to be updated on a regular basis though. Perhaps the magnet file is what you would broadcast occasionally on your transmitter. Quote The SW radio (I'm guessing that's the same as CB) Not even close. Quote soundcard modem setups, would they be able to work over a wide band in stacked frequency ranges to allow either wider bandwidth or multiple connections depending on what signals are found? Not multiple connections. There really wouldn't be 'connections' per se. There is the transmitting station and the listening stations, data flows one way, in a one-to-many format. A computer using much wider bandwidth sound cards (64, 128 bit) can listen to a muc wider band of the radio specturm at once, and could receive data from two ajacent stations, but it can't tune to tow distinctly different channels at the same time; that would require two sondcards at least, likley two different shortwave recievers as well, unless you've got the skills to bypass the tuner an access the internal frequency of the reciever. The bandwidth of the signal is limited by the transmitter gear, power requirements, and clear frequency bandwidth on a shortwave band. Shortwave is a worldwide set of bands that most americans have no experience with, and they are crowded. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 04, 2012, 07:41:08 PM Reading up on this atm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_radio Sounds like a stream of the data as it comes onto the chain would be fairly easy to set up and the more there are the more it could be trusted, would be a weak link though. Packet radio is a crude form of wide area, time-division type mesh network. Might be useful for relatively small areas, such as a medium sized city, but if the POTS system still works, regular phone modems would be better. Hams don't really use packet much anymore. Better systems are phase-shift keyed modes, such as PSK-31 and up. PSK-125/250/500 are more robust, and generally has better range and practical throughput, than a 300 baud shortwave packet modem. There are many other types of (software defined) soundcard modes to choose from, PSK was just the first in widespread use, and one of the simpliest to impliment. Packet radio requires specially modifed modems, and specialized hardware is expensive. Sound cards are not expensive anymore. Hell, I can do PSK-31/63/125 audio conversions on my android cell phone. Modern hams willing to invest that kind of money into specialized mode gear just tend to skip the packet modem and go for a full blown digital transciever with built-in software defined capabilities. Much better capabilities and costs about the same. EDIT: Really, some of this gear is truely impressive. If you've ever seen some of the modern digital transcievers that cops use in their cars these days, hams have had that kind of gear for over a decade now. A commercially available digital radio with 'meshable' computer capablities, called D-STAR, makes anything that you've heard of so far look about as advanced as morse code. A 50 mile, two hop, mesh connection while in a moving vehicle isn't even pushing the margins anymore. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 04, 2012, 07:59:51 PM That sounds like a really nice setup all ready to go. Maybe a stupid question but are police surplus units available? Well, yes. To licensed hams. But the D-STAR off-the-shelf transcievers are usually cheaper anyway. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 04, 2012, 09:33:13 PM That's very advanced stuff, not fast but the features and extra software are impressive. Was pricing the homebrew options, GMSK modems are very cheap but couldn't find a price on Kenwood TKR-820's or equivalent. Any idea what sort of power consumption? Power consumption varies considerablely due to a number of variables, but about 300 watts is your top end limit, practically speaking. Range with that kind of digital gear is more limited by line of sight issues than anything else at greater than 50 watts peak-envelope power, and is somewhere in the range of 10-15 miles radius with a high mounted mobile antenna of decent quality, or up to about 30 miles on a roof mounted stationary antenna. Again, shortwave bands make those ranges look like crap, but are bandwidth limited, crowded and noisy. A shortwave setup using a near-vertical incidental skywave antenna (NVIS) has a range radius of about 300 miles in all directions, and PSK-31 can do this with a peak-envelope power rating of under 10 watts. Slow as hell, though; but it scales up bandwidth almost linerally, so 50 watts PEP is about right for PSK-250 to that same range for a clear enough signal to be picked up with common quality shortwave listening gear. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: jgarzik on December 04, 2012, 09:56:56 PM This is turning into an interesting thread. Although it is now lapsed, I was formerly a licensed ARRL amateur radio operator ("KB4UZB").
Here is a useful, cheap, realistic idea that would help bitcoin survive an Internet blackout: Have multiple stations broadcast the best known bitcoin block header (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm). It is only 80 bytes of data, which on average changes every 10 minutes. That should be feasible for packet radio and other low bandwidth communication streams. Back in the late 1980s, the BBS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system) days, I remember one FidoNet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FidoNet) operator had access to a few unused, off-screen scanlines of a satellite TV channel broadcast all over the world. If you bought or built a cheap decoder box, and already had a satellite dish, you could receive FidoNet file downloads via satellite. You had no choice in what you received, of course -- it was whatever the FidoNet operator decided to send that day -- but it was a great alternate one-to-many broadcast mechanism. One could broadcast the blockchain headers in the same manner, with extraneous satellite bandwidth. (of course, that is an old trick and probably impossible these days due to tighter resource management) Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: miscreanity on December 04, 2012, 11:06:47 PM A commercially available digital radio with 'meshable' computer capablities, called D-STAR, makes anything that you've heard of so far look about as advanced as morse code. A 50 mile, two hop, mesh connection while in a moving vehicle isn't even pushing the margins anymore. Has there been much progress on an open ABME codec replacement? Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: hardcore-fs on December 04, 2012, 11:50:03 PM The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out. Though if you are talking about blacking out access to the Internet, then I guess that's a possibility. In that case, electronic bitcoin transaction will be impossible, though physical bitcoins can still be used as cash. Nonsense!!!!! War, is one example. An example of what? 1. The internet was not invented for that reason. 2. "it can not be blacked out", war is an example of it being blacked out, either in part of in full. Also incorrect............. (wikipedia after verifying references) "Although the ARPANET was designed to survive subordinate-network losses, the principal reason was that the switching nodes and network links were unreliable, even without any nuclear attacks. About the resource scarcity that spurred the creation of the ARPANET, Charles Herzfeld, ARPA Director (1965–1967), said: The ARPANET was not started to create a Command and Control System that would survive a nuclear attack, as many now claim. To build such a system was, clearly, a major military need, but it was not ARPA's mission to do this; in fact, we would have been severely criticized had we tried. Rather, the ARPANET came out of our frustration that there were only a limited number of large, powerful research computers in the country, and that many research investigators, who should have access to them, were geographically separated from them.[13]" lets face it, in the last 5 years an earthquake off Taiwan and a few chinks in a fishing trawler,took down the Asian side of the network for a few hours. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Rassah on December 05, 2012, 04:30:15 AM Isn't short-wave the radio that can transmit around the world? When my grandpa was visiting USSR from Ukraine, he brought a shortwave radio with him, and was able to listen to his news stations from back home.
All of this reminds me of those "mysterious" numbers stations that the CIA used to transmit info to spies. I wonder if the same thing can be set up with Bitcoin, transmitting the most recent mined block around the world every ten minutes? Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: jgarzik on December 05, 2012, 04:35:50 AM If you want to transmit whole blocks, you are looking at 1,000,000 bytes every 10 minutes.
Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: BkkCoins on December 05, 2012, 05:48:51 AM If you want to transmit whole blocks, you are looking at 1,000,000 bytes every 10 minutes. Sounds like within reach of modem speeds but don't know if shortwave can handle that. Is compression useful or is it already compressed. If not already, it seems like it should crunch down quite a bit.Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: paybitcoin on December 05, 2012, 05:57:36 AM A commercially available digital radio with 'meshable' computer capablities, called D-STAR, makes anything that you've heard of so far look about as advanced as morse code. A 50 mile, two hop, mesh connection while in a moving vehicle isn't even pushing the margins anymore. Has there been much progress on an open ABME codec replacement? Codec2 http://codec2.org/ (http://codec2.org/) is the open replacement for AMBE. Sounds (literally) quite promising. Transmitting the Bitcoin headers on HF would be fun... It seems like the ARRL should be pushing hams to invest in a long-distance mesh packet radio network; even if it was slow, it would provide an incredibly useful service when required. Think of a new generation the radio 'nets' and Field Day setups for that can operate automatically, 24/7. Maybe it would get more people into amateur radio as well. ::) Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 05, 2012, 05:59:04 AM Isn't short-wave the radio that can transmit around the world? When my grandpa was visiting USSR from Ukraine, he brought a shortwave radio with him, and was able to listen to his news stations from back home. All of this reminds me of those "mysterious" numbers stations that the CIA used to transmit info to spies. I wonder if the same thing can be set up with Bitcoin, transmitting the most recent mined block around the world every ten minutes? Yes, but keep in mind that your talking about transmitters in the 10's of kilowatts using commercial quality gear and very tall, low angle biased tower antennas. In order to travel farther than 300 miles, the signal must be able to bounce off the F level of the ionosphere repeatedly without losing too much signal to be picked up by common receiver gear. IMHO, start with a NVIS setup in order to get a good single bounce. Keep in mind, a 300 mile radius is a lot of area. If I did that in my home city near Louisville, Kentucky; using commonly available ham gear and a max PEP of 1500 watts, my signal should be clear from Chicago to Atlanta. The same setup in Frankfort, Germany should be able to cover from Paris to Prague and Amsterdam, Munich, Berlin, Hamburg and maybe Milan. It's not necessarily more cost effective to set up a full power shortwave station intended to wrap the planet compared to several well placed NVIS transmitters using gear at ham power levels. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 05, 2012, 06:00:34 AM A commercially available digital radio with 'meshable' computer capablities, called D-STAR, makes anything that you've heard of so far look about as advanced as morse code. A 50 mile, two hop, mesh connection while in a moving vehicle isn't even pushing the margins anymore. Has there been much progress on an open ABME codec replacement? Codec2 http://codec2.org/ (http://codec2.org/) is the open replacement for AMBE. Sounds (literally) quite promising. Transmitting the Bitcoin headers on HF would be fun... It seems like the ARRL should be pushing hams to invest in a long-distance mesh packet radio network; even if it was slow, it would provide an incredibly useful service when required. Think of a new generation the radio 'nets' and Field Day setups for that can operate automatically, 24/7. Maybe it would get more people into amateur radio as well. ::) "Automaticly" isn't really what ARRL is into promoting. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 05, 2012, 06:02:44 AM If you want to transmit whole blocks, you are looking at 1,000,000 bytes every 10 minutes. Sounds like within reach of modem speeds but don't know if shortwave can handle that. Is compression useful or is it already compressed. If not already, it seems like it should crunch down quite a bit.Compression is not likely to be worth it, and can violate ham rules against encryption. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: BkkCoins on December 05, 2012, 06:10:38 AM The wiki page on D-Star is very interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-STAR Quote D-STAR transfers both voice and data via digital encoding over the 2 m (VHF), 70 cm (UHF), and 23 cm (1.2 GHz) amateur radio bands. There is also an interlinking radio system for creating links between systems in a local area on 10 GHz, which is valuable to allow emergency communications oriented networks to continue to link in the event of internet access failure or overload. Quote Radios providing DV data service within the low-speed voice protocol variant typically use an RS-232 or USB connection for low speed data (1200 bit/s), while the Icom ID-1 23 cm band radio offers a standard Ethernet connection for high speed (128 kbit/s) connections, to allow easy interfacing with computer equipment. And the section on D-RATS. What does an Icom ID-1 typically cost? (edit - According to google, around $1000 US) Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: cbeast on December 05, 2012, 06:13:01 AM The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out. Though if you are talking about blacking out access to the Internet, then I guess that's a possibility. In that case, electronic bitcoin transaction will be impossible, though physical bitcoins can still be used as cash. Nonsense!!!!! War, is one example. An example of what? 1. The internet was not invented for that reason. 2. "it can not be blacked out", war is an example of it being blacked out, either in part of in full. Also incorrect............. (wikipedia after verifying references) "Although the ARPANET was designed to survive subordinate-network losses, the principal reason was that the switching nodes and network links were unreliable, even without any nuclear attacks. About the resource scarcity that spurred the creation of the ARPANET, Charles Herzfeld, ARPA Director (1965–1967), said: The ARPANET was not started to create a Command and Control System that would survive a nuclear attack, as many now claim. To build such a system was, clearly, a major military need, but it was not ARPA's mission to do this; in fact, we would have been severely criticized had we tried. Rather, the ARPANET came out of our frustration that there were only a limited number of large, powerful research computers in the country, and that many research investigators, who should have access to them, were geographically separated from them.[13]" lets face it, in the last 5 years an earthquake off Taiwan and a few chinks in a fishing trawler,took down the Asian side of the network for a few hours. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: paybitcoin on December 05, 2012, 06:27:51 AM A commercially available digital radio with 'meshable' computer capablities, called D-STAR, makes anything that you've heard of so far look about as advanced as morse code. A 50 mile, two hop, mesh connection while in a moving vehicle isn't even pushing the margins anymore. Has there been much progress on an open ABME codec replacement? Codec2 http://codec2.org/ (http://codec2.org/) is the open replacement for AMBE. Sounds (literally) quite promising. Transmitting the Bitcoin headers on HF would be fun... It seems like the ARRL should be pushing hams to invest in a long-distance mesh packet radio network; even if it was slow, it would provide an incredibly useful service when required. Think of a new generation the radio 'nets' and Field Day setups for that can operate automatically, 24/7. Maybe it would get more people into amateur radio as well. ::) "Automaticly" isn't really what ARRL is into promoting. True. I guess I meant in the sense that if it needed to run automatically in an emergency, there would already be a pool of knowledge, a reference implementation, and compatible nodes. Otherwise/normally it would just be for experiments and QSOs. Maybe upgrading APRS WIDE to a bigger mesh and a protocol that can operate globally would be a good start. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: novusordo on December 05, 2012, 02:50:46 PM I've been looking into running a Bitcoin node on the Hyperboria CJDNS network. The network currently runs on top of the Internet, but it is designed to not depend on any specific underlying network.
Of course, to do this correctly, we would need to get "bridge" nodes that connect to nodes on both the Internet and on CJDNS. Miners would need to connect to CJDNS if the Internet blacked out, but as long as there are bridge nodes between the networks, it would work without miners connected directly to the CJDNS network. CJDNS is currently under heavy development. It's extremely interesting, very disruptive, and I highly recommend that you look into it if you're interested. CJDNS Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cjdns) Github page (https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns) CJDNS info site (http://cjdns.info/) Hyperboria website (the actual CJDNS network) (http://hyperboria.net/) Project Meshnet (https://projectmeshnet.org/) Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 05, 2012, 03:44:40 PM From EconomicPolicyJournal - http://tinyurl.com/cyx8dl6:
Which Countries Are Most at Risk from Internet Disconnection Syria recently shut-off access to the internet in its country. This was fairly easy to do because only two firms provided internet service in the country. James Cowie of renesys writes: The key to the Internet's survival is the Internet's decentralization — and it's not uniform across the world. In some countries, international access to data and telecommunications services is heavily regulated. There may be only one or two companies who hold official licenses to carry voice and Internet traffic to and from the outside world, and they are required by law to mediate access for everyone else. Under those circumstances, it's almost trivial for a government to issue an order that would take down the Internet.... With good reason, most countries have gradually moved towards more diversity in their Internet infrastructure over the last decade. Sometimes that happens all by itself, as a side effect of economic growth and market forces, as many different companies move into the market and compete to provide the cheapest international Internet access to the citizenry...Here's a map of the world, with countries colored according to the Internet diversity at the international frontier. We did a census, from our own view of the global Internet routing table, of all the domestic providers in each country who have direct connections (visible in routing) to foreign providers. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-a3wj-6xw5-Q/UL65cj8vqcI/AAAAAAAAE2E/fs2rIATA9jM/s400/renesys.risk.internet.disconnect-thumb-600x395-810.png Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Jan on December 05, 2012, 04:27:11 PM To be honest, if there is an internet blackout I believe there are more pressing problems than spending coins. At least for me.
However, let's assume that you have a secure hardware device with built-in radio, that allows you to communicate securely (short distance, authenticated communication) with another device of the same kind, and that device does not allow you to export/import private keys. Then you could do multiple secure transactions from device to device for days or months before finally syncing up with the network. This could be useful in areas without mobile coverage, such as most of rural US ;D Rural Area United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_area#United_States) Quote 84 percent of the United States' inhabitants live in suburban and urban areas,[3] but cities occupy only 10 percent of the country. Rural areas occupy the remaining 90 percent. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 05, 2012, 07:06:51 PM That's pretty much what a bitcoincard is supposed to do, but it doesn't have the memory for a full client. An android app could do it using ad-hoc wireless or regular wifi and a piratebox as a hotspot.
To be honest, if there is an internet blackout I believe there are more pressing problems than spending coins. At least for me. However, let's assume that you have a secure hardware device with built-in radio, that allows you to communicate securely (short distance, authenticated communication) with another device of the same kind, and that device does not allow you to export/import private keys. Then you could do multiple secure transactions from device to device for days or months before finally syncing up with the network. This could be useful in areas without mobile coverage, such as most of rural US ;D Rural Area United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_area#United_States) Quote 84 percent of the United States' inhabitants live in suburban and urban areas,[3] but cities occupy only 10 percent of the country. Rural areas occupy the remaining 90 percent. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 05, 2012, 07:15:07 PM That's an interesting map, but it suggests to me that the size of the geographic area that a particular border incloses might have more to do with the diversity of the cross-border Internet connections than government interference. If one were to do the same thing examining individual US states, would the diversity be as high? Also, this map almost cannot include all the pathways, since many of the smaller ones are privately owned by corporations. This is pretty much how tor can puncture the great Internet wall of china, and exactly how we can reasonablely expect that bitcoin might be unstoppable. It's not that those slower connections have to be discovered, it's that someone still knows about them, and deliberately moves to take advantage of them when necessary. EDIT: It's probably got more to do with population than even geographic size. Otherwise Iceland would be much better. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Jan on December 05, 2012, 07:22:38 PM That's pretty much what a bitcoincard is supposed to do, but it doesn't have the memory for a full client. An android app could do it using ad-hoc wireless or regular wifi and a piratebox as a hotspot. Being an offline client like the one I outlined does not require much memory. 32 bytes for a private key and roughly 100 bytes for each unspent transaction output and 500 bytes for each full transaction, or something along those lines. You can go far with 1Mb flash memory which is nothing these days. I think we will see them within the next year or so if the market demands it. The tricky part is to make it sufficiently tamper resistant (not android phones) and cheap. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Rassah on December 05, 2012, 08:58:17 PM Damn! Poor Greenland! Must be some awful dictatorial despot up there, keeping a tight seal on internet access, and ruling with an iron lutefisk ;D Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: MoonShadow on December 05, 2012, 09:17:33 PM That's pretty much what a bitcoincard is supposed to do, but it doesn't have the memory for a full client. An android app could do it using ad-hoc wireless or regular wifi and a piratebox as a hotspot. Being an offline client like the one I outlined does not require much memory. 32 bytes for a private key and roughly 100 bytes for each unspent transaction output and 500 bytes for each full transaction, or something along those lines. You can go far with 1Mb flash memory which is nothing these days. I think we will see them within the next year or so if the market demands it. The tricky part is to make it sufficiently tamper resistant (not android phones) and cheap. Oh, I don't doubt that we will see them in time, because they certainly do serve a role. I think that we will see light clients like this that are tied to a trusted full client, whose job it is to load spendable transactions upon the light hardware client that are deliberately spendable in ways that do not require (or often do not require) a change output. Thus allowing the light device to forget about the spent transactions, because it no longer has a vested interest in them at all. Title: Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? Post by: Trader Steve on December 11, 2012, 04:23:37 PM A good post and comments over at Schneier on Security:
Dictators Shutting Down the Internet http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/12/dictators_shutt.html |
