Bitcoin Forum

You're getting paid to promote an exceptionally scummy site.  

Maybe you are able to fool yourself into thinking it's ok as long as A) you put disclaimer in profile  and B) you haven't looked into the accusations against the site but plan on doing so whenever you don't have more important things to do.

it's all bullshit. when you put the ad in your Sig you drive traffic and increase the reputation of the site. that's why they pay you. duh.

You're setting a bad example as a staff member, sending the message "we don't have to accept responsibility for the decision we make to promote a site (or not promote a site)"

Just because you haven't taken the time to research the situation for yourself doesn't make it ok.

I tried handling this privately but I find your "I won't be able to research this site for a while, but will keep promoting them anyway" attitude unacceptable.

My last pm to you over 24 hours ago got no response so here we are:

It's irresponsible to advertise a business without any due diligence.

Please, stop promoting Betcoin in your signature until you are confident enough to take a stance.  

LOL, that disclaimer is not even visible by default because it is in her "other contact info" section of her profile, so when people view her posts they do not see this disclaimer.

It is kinda sad that someone advertising what is fairly certain to be a scam site, or at the very least that is not 100% "above board" is allowed to remain a moderator. It doesn't exactly give a very good message to those looking from the outside when they are trying to form an opinion about the forum.

laudas mentality is clearly a popular one on this forum and results in sites manufacturing trust without anyone being held responsible.

If a site has a signature campaign on this forum we have the power to hold them responsible.  Sites that act scummy and ignore legit issues should have their Sig campaign shut down by trusted users who are willing to neg rep all who continue promoting after warning.


instead we have staff joining Sig campaign who are clueless and refuse to get a clue.

People who have promoted ponzis in their signature have received negative trust in the past...
I doubt if a disclaimer like this would have worked.

Of course that disclaimer is useless. I wasn't aware of a problem with betcoin.ag. Is there enough proof that it's scammy? Are you talking about  this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.0)? Any other?

If someone promotes a site which is known for being scammy then they clearly deserve negative trust, regardless of their position or any disclaimer. Now the question is whether that site is clearly scammy. If it is (without much doubt) then I'll add some negative trust.

Also, I do believe highly-trusted users and staff should be specially careful with what they promote. As I said long ago in a similar case: if the staff promotes a site newbies will think it's endorsed by the forum (I know it's not the case but it can look like it because of the 'Staff' legend). So they definitely need to check any site before promoting it.

Update: I haven't found final proof against betcoin.ag so I don't think promoting it deserves negative trust. There are some suspicious things so personally I wouldn't promote it but the benefit of the doubt could apply. However I do think it would be more responsible for anyone to research a site before promoting it. This is valid for everyone and even more so for staff and trusted members.

And just a note to Vod and Quickseller: you obvious can't have a proper discussion with each other so please consider just ignoring each other for everyone's sake. At least that's what I try to do whenever I see any of you writing about the other. I have to say I do strongly appreciate your opinions otherwise.

Yes, that thread.

It looks like a player won some kind of jackpot that should have resulted in the player receiving just under 3kBTC, however that player ended up receiving what can logically be explained as being less then the full amount via a confidential settlement (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=386266.msg15495256#msg15495256).

The root cause of the issue appears to be something about the software they are (not were) using, made by BetSoft (BetSoft might even be the one that is actually paying out -- I am not really sure). A best case scenario is that BetCoin is using a 3rd party vendor that results in players not receiving all of what they are due when they win the jackpot. Even if you were to argue that BetCoin was not aware of the issues with BetSoft (IMO, this is a little far fetched, but this would result in BetCoin being given a maximum benefit of the doubt), they are still hosting games that use BetSoft software, so they are knowingly hosing games that they know will not fully payout when a player wins. (archive (http://archive.is/SrIv3#selection-1314.2-1653.1) from today proving they are still hosing BetSoft games).

here's a thread I've attempted to use to keep track of all the scummy things betcoin has done

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1322261.0

some of it might be hard to understand for anyone without a backround in poker or gambling ( I'm happy to explain anything not clear in that thread)

I'm hesitant to call them a scam site though because I don't want to debate the definition of the word "scam" 

Who made you the babysitter of Lauda? Who cares what He/She has in their Signature. I understand you Question the Website in the signature but why the personal attack by naming Him/Her?

Personal attacks are part of the game here, especially if you are a mod / DT member.
There is no getting away from that.

I don't think this is a personal attack. The OP has been very active in trying to get shady casinos to payout what they clearly owe their players when there have been disputes in the past. BetCoin (the website that Lauda is promoting via her signature), apparently has a fairly long history of being extremely shady.

From the looks of it, the OP contacted one or more members of BetCoin's signature campaign, presumably asking them to remove their signature, and Lauda responded by posting a BS disclaimer (that is not even visible the majority of the time) that she does not endorse any website in her signature.

Another personal attack against Lauda.  I don't know if it's because Lauda represents the establishment that has labelled QS a scammer, or he just hates Lauda because Lauda is honest.

I have absolutely no history with Lauda aside from a few pms, all within the last 48 hours. 

 I just want to bring attention to the damage that is happening from people thinking they are not responsible for the site they are getting paid to promote and think since Lauda is a staff member, they serve as a good example to prove my point and also deserve to be made an example out of.

I don't think any site should be able to run a signature campaign on this forum unless they are prepared to respond to any reasonable question.  Ignoring players should never be considered acceptable.

Here are all 3 pms I've sent to Lauda.  I won't post the 2 responses, but to summarize: Lauda does not know about these issues.  THey aren't a priority and it will be  quite some time before they are able to investigate on their own.

I have not received a response to the final pm, and they continue to promote Betcoin and post in other forums. 


PM #1

(No subject)
« Sent to: Lauda on: July 07, 2016, 11:14:56 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote  ReplyReply  Remove this messageDelete 
Hi,

I noticed you've joined Betcoins signature campaign and hope you will reconsider considering the influence you would have over potential future Bitcoin users.

Am I right to assume you either haven't looked very closely or  don't understand the many accusations that have been made over the past year+ against them?   I'm not questioning your intelligence ( I've read some of your posts, I know you're one of the smart ones ), if you aren't familiar with or interested in gambling/poker, I wouldn't blame you for not digging through long threads which are mostly nonsense anyway. 

Betcoin is doing damage to the future of Bitcoins Casino and Poker industry by  establishing a negative image to potential players and setting pathetic standards of what current players should consider acceptable.

Their strategy is clearly focused on building their reputation artificially with bribes and signature campaigns rather than earning it.  They use their campaign members (most of which are never seen playing at Betcoin) to bully or discredit actual players who bring up legitimate issues. 

They also create the illusion that Betcoin has made themselves publicly available while ignoring the serious issues, they instead thank users (who they are paying) for any kind words or softball questions.

 I really hope you will take this seriously and respond with your honest opinion,  I'm more than happy to explain anything you don't understand.  I've gone out of my way to provide evidence to support all of my accusations, here are just a few of many, I don't know where to begin really, just let me know of any questions.
 
My big collection of Betcoin issues:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1322261.0

Recent issue about BTC500+ jackpot (resolution was simply  bribe to silence player)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15426182#msg15426182
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.msg15424335#msg15424335

Some quotes from Dooglus (I figure everyone trusts him, right?)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=386266.msg13025707#msg13025707
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=386266.msg14470101#msg14470101

Thanks

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PM #2

Hi,

It's disappointing to get this kind of response from a staff member.  You're accepting money in exchange for promoting Betcoin in your signature, clearly you have an ethical obligation to the community to make every effort to avoid driving traffic to any business that fails to meet whatever ethical standards you consider reasonable.  "I don't have time" is just such a bad example to set.

Your decision to promote Betcoin will influence the opinion of potential Betcoin customers, other signature campaign members and also Betcoins competition.  Whether you like it or not, you're sending a message that on some level, Betcoins behavior is acceptable.  Your "I do not endorse any website in my signature." disclaimer is not a substitute.

Here's a few bits that should take no longer than a few minutes to digest. Hopefully it will convince you that to at least remove the Betcoin signature, until you have taken the time to inform yourself and draw your own conclusion. (I'm happy to help if you have questions)

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In the last 48 hours, Betcoin has been blacklisted or had warnings issued on several of the most established Casino Affiliate Sites.

Here's a screenshot of three of them: https://i.gyazo.com/e2a153be33ff644bc3631a4fb8d9a6c8.png

Left: https://www.casinolistings.com/casinos/rogue-warnings-blacklist
Top Right: http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74146
Bottom Right: http://www.latestcasinobonuses.com/casinos/betcoin.html

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In this post I shared evidence that Betcoin changed their terms without changing the "last updated" in attempt to void a 505+BTC prize after it happened with the hopes that nobody would notice.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.msg15424335#msg15424335

They eventually changed the "last updated" several days after being exposed.

Stunna, one of the more respected members here, responded:

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Some of dooglus' statements from months ago:

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And finally, an anonymous person who seems to have been your campaign manager had a conversation with me in a google document.  Whoever it was clearly considered the fact you were joining a great success:

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PM #3

Re: (No subject)
« Sent to: Lauda on: July 08, 2016, 08:27:32 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote  ReplyReply  Remove this messageDelete 
It's irresponsible to advertise a business without any due diligence.

Please, stop promoting Betcoin in your signature until you are confident enough to take a stance. 

I don't think Lauda wearing a Betcoin.ag signature is a big deal. :P

There are accusations about every single site out there. This (resolved) accusation of not awarding the jackpot if I understand correctly is actually against Betsoft. As they stated, he wouldn't have received the jackpot makes no matter which site he was playing at.
The only thing I see shady is the way they changed their terms without changing the last updated date.

BetCoin is still actively promoting BetSoft games on their site, therefore, in my eyes they are just as responsible for the non-payment of the jackpot, especially now that they cannot deny that they were not aware of the issues.

Regardless of the fact that Betsoft software will cause jackpots to not be awarded when they should be, and regardless of the fact that this will happen at any site that hosts Betsoft games, it is still a possibility that this will happen at Betcoin, and as long as this is a true statement, Betcoin is a scam site. If Betcoin wants to get this label removed then they should pull/remove any BetSoft games from their website.

Until the above happens, anyone promoting Betcoin is promoting a scam site

Not in my eyes.

Do you mean all casinos, that still have BetSoft games on their site and, are or should be aware of this resolved accusation are scam?
If they had not updated the payout table I might have agreed with you.
Do let me know which slots or feature of BetSoft is not working as it should be?



Wait a couple of days and go ahead negging all the above and the members wearing any of their signature.  8)

Incorrect. I have asked the OP (kindly; now I see that it was a mistake) to give me some time because I have a backlog that needs to be worked down from. I added that disclaimer temporarily until I am able to verify what is going on, yet I get attacked even for that.

This has become a daily routine now. :-[

All that was required was to give me time to evaluate the claims and decide or provide a conclusive 'investigation' by possibly a DT member (which ended up as inconclusive). Until that time, I don't see why I should comply with the requests of a random person. I don't even want to comment on this further, it is quite disrespectful at best.

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Don't be surprised if Lauda is at fault for all of those as well. ::)

Not trying to offend you or something but if it is any other member on the forum due to any causes either a scam accusation is opened or found promoting something which is liable to steal money from users indirectly,DT members without even looking into the matter ,give a negative reputation temporarily which could be resolved later .Doesn't the same rules apply to you as well ?For example ,Cryptodevil negative reps any members who even post a comment on ponzi sites,with or without intention.Most of the times the accusation is solved later,I remember Shorena doing the same,negative rep first and remove the tag once the accusation is resolved or if the member comes clean at all.I don't think you should be given special privileges,the DT members should apply the same rules to everybody.Just my two satoshis.  

Understood. It would be only natural, according to what you're saying, that the service in question received those ratings first IMO. So mind telling my for what reason am I singled out here, out of so many members (there's at least 1 DT member wearing their signature) and Betcoin itself? After a certain amount of time and accounts it becomes obvious to one.

I'm not and I haven't done anything wrong either. What you're saying would only be fair in case that every single participant receives that negative rating.

Frankly speaking,I don't think it makes much sense to apply special signature rules to Staff as well.As said,there are more than 30 members carrying the signature of betcoin.ag who should be equally responsible for promoting the casino.No special actions needs to be taken just because you're a "Staff".

Correct.Otherwise,makes it look like a personal attack.

AFAIK we don't have a 24 hour deadline for PMs yet lol.





This is not a personal attack against Lauda - May be BetSoft or Betcoin.ag could call that.. I can see both sides. OP thinks that being a staff, Lauda should not promote this particular site.

I wouldn't worry too much about it.  It's more than obvious these anti-Lauda threads are started by Quickseller alts.  No one respects that scammer.

When you are wearing a signature, you're advocating for that product. You're encouraging the use of it, and what if the source is not reliable? This seems as if it's a personal attack, but a part of the problem lies in the fact that as EcuaMobi stated earlier:


Although the only explicit issue you can find about Betcoin is the Betsoft situation, research is still a necessity especially since TwitchySeal has laid out all of it on a thread. Doesn't the jasonort problem at least raise any alarms as to the fact that there might be something else going on? Even though he got his "settlement" (which is definitely a fraction of what he should have gotten) the entire situation started off with Betcoin's ignorance, which has happened on many occasions.

I don't know about Betcoin being scam but Lauda is a bonafide Staff Sig Spammer

He's an excellent mod but also a sig spammmer.

He should just own up to it and tell everyone to fuck off.

Let me channel Lauda.....

"Yeah I'm an effen sig spammer bitches, what you going to do about it"


Seriously what can any one do about LOL


~BCX~

Possible unrealistic solution, you can try to report one of his post (just to see what it will happen).  /s

If you recall, back when you joined their campaign, I've advised you against promoting that particular casino/brand, Lauda.
Right now, I'd go forward and once again do the same thing. I don't think you (or anyone else) should be promoting them in your signature.
You shouldn't be advertising betcoin.ag given their current situation and how they handle problems/themselves.

That being said, I would advise everyone else being enrolled in that campaign to do the same, drop it.

Do a little more research please.  I am not quickseller.

This thread was an attempt to bring attention to what I consider a major issue that many don't seem to take seriously. Seriously though, ask around anyone active in the gambling forum, I'm not Quickseller and my posts are not influenced by his agenda in any way.


The progressive Jackpot is only the most recent explicit issue, it is NOT the ONLY issue and, in my opinion it's not the biggest. 

There are many others.  So many I honestly don't even know where to begin.  Most of them involve what is likely an honest mistake made by Betcoin handled in an extremely unethical way. 

Please, read this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1322261.0

The reason Betcoin appears as if these issues don't exist is because of the 50+ signature campaign members some of them are very happy to be members of one of the highest paying campaigns.   When they defend Betcoin against "trolls" like me, Betcoin pays them bonuses.  When users are "spamming" their thread with legitimate questions, campaign members provide someone else to respond to.

To be clear, this type of behavior is not something all campaign members participate in and I'm not accusing Lauda of being one of them.  However, any reputable member of the forum who joins the campaign makes the entire campaign more reputable.

Here is one example of how Betcoin addresses issues, read the post and then the following few responses:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=386266.msg14470101#msg14470101

They never responded to dooglus, by the way.

The issue he was asking about involved a glitch that caused too much rake to be taken from Nov 1 - Mid December. (in cash games, they take a fee out of every pot based on the size of the pot and a few other factors)

A player reported the issue the first week of Nov, betcoin ignored it for over a month and continued to advertise a rake structure that wasn't being followed.

In December, they announced a rake increase and denied the issue happened.

From December - March they ignored the issue.  Me and a few other members posted about it nearly daily, along with signature camp members that didn't seem to know much about Betcoin other than "great promos and fast cashouts!"

In March, they had their "Betcoin to return overcharged rake" promo which made a lot of players happy but was not an appropriate way to handle the situation.  I am still confident that there are players who were overcharged 10+BTC and didn't notice.  The only way one would notice is if they own tracking software and understand how to use it.

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I'm not saying anyone should just snap neg rep anyone.

I'm saying we have a serious issue here.  It's become acceptable to help a site become trusted without taking any consideration into whether or not they should actually be trusted.

When I see a staff member do it, I see an obvious and legitimate response for every member who may be asked "hey, why are you promoting that site?"

Lauda, why won't you remove your signature until you have done your due diligence?

If the money is so important, you should consider the research equally important.

If it's not about the money, just remove it until you have time to educate yourself on the situation. 

Otherwise you're not just promoting Betcoin.ag, you're also promoting ignorance.

Great thread OP. I fully agree with you, it is bs.

"It's become acceptable to help a site become trusted without taking any consideration into whether or not they should actually be trusted."
Yes, it has clearly become acceptable for staff to take no consideration.

Good advise given from Lutpin. Completely agree with actmyname.

Someone finally gets it. If anything, DT members should have higher priority in such cases IMO.

I try to rationally accept the disrespect. That's the best that I can do I guess. I can't know to whom those alts belong, although the previous 2 threads were created by shills.

I don't see why I would do that.

How you forgotten about admin(s)?

No, you said "I wouldn't advertise for any coins in the world" and posted 2 links, which is less than OP PM'd me and equally useless to me ATM. That was about 2 days prior to the first PM of OP.

It should be, and would be deleted if it was not appropriate. Rules should be applied without exceptions regardless of a members position.

This is a trust related issue, right? So mind telling me why I'm being prioritized as a staff member (e.g. over a DT member) only when it (could) is 'negatively' effecting me? Additionally, don't be surprised if more 'random' people, that I've had strong discussions with (e.g. Core vs. Classic), hop on this bandwagon.

I've actually PM'ed EcuaMobi asking him to please provide me with the results of his own analysis, and it was inconclusive:
I suggest building a strong case again Betcoin first (no, you don't have that). That's the best way that you could 'effectively' stop their campaign if the company was truly a scam. This is what I've written via PM to someone and it still holds ground: "All that was required was to either give me a few days of time or provide a conclusive 'investigation' by a non-random (or possibly DT member) and it would have been removed." Guess what I had time to do besides sending a few PMs because of this thread (reading, processing and formulating takes up a lot of time) so far? Nothing. Additionally, the first experienced DT member concluded that there was no conclusive proof.

Indeed I found it to be inconclusive. However I did find suspicious things and I strongly advice you or any other not to promote it. That would be more responsible in my opinion.
I just didn't find enough evidence to demand it or to add negative trust to those who promote it.

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Regarding special attention to Staff, DT or trusted members I think we all should be more careful about who we promote, however I think this is specially true for Staff members because newbies see that Staff label on their profile and may think the prompted site is endorsed by the forum.
That's not the case with DT members, there's no 'DT' label which may confuse new members. Very trusted members should be extra careful too.

I don't know who "Lauda" is and have no opinion one way or another about him/her.  I also don't know what "DT" means, but I assume it's "default trust"?  So I'll try to explain the situation as succinctly as possible, but I apologize if I get an assumption incorrect:

Betcoin is a shady/sketchy site.  They have done a number of things in the past that are very ethically wrong at the BEST.  All of them are anti-customer and show a disdain for their customers, disrespect for their customers/customer's money's safety, and have a huge veil of secrecy.  Now, I don't come from a bitcoin world, I come from the poker world.  I've seen literally dozens of poker sites fold up and steal player funds.  Betcoin's activity mirrors made of the "warning signs" that those sites exhibited right before their cut and run.

Here are a couple of examples:

- Betcoin either sold their customer's email addresses to phishers or had several layers of their database compromised by malicious attackers.  They refuse to take responsibility for this or let any customer know what was going on, allowing made players to fall victim to phishing emails.  When made aware of what was going on, they POSTED THE PHISHING LINK ON THEIR FRONT PAGE!

- Betcoin stole player funds in the form of a bad beat jackpot and overraking pots on all tables. 

- Betcoin consistently underpays players in the form of their daily rakeback. 

- Betcoin steals money and actively bets against their player base by converting btc-to-usd at a rate up to $100 lower than the actual conversion rate.

And so many many all.  All of these situations have been documented extensively, and are listed in Twitchy's scam thread.  If you have time to post a couple of times on this board, you have the time to read through that thread and make an informed decision on what you want to promote.  The problem with a staff member promoting a shady site is that it carries a certain amount of weight to it.  It looks like bitcointalk itself is endorsing the site.  That's bad!  Will you be criminally responsible if Betcoin steals money from players who signed up under you?  Probably not (unless you are currently living in the US, in which case you are already breaking the law by being an affiliate for an illegal offshore US-facing site), but ethically you absolutely will be.  Most people wouldn't want that weight on their head, which is why every major affiliate rejects Betcoin ads, and I hope that staff for one of the biggest hubs for bitcoin fans would hold themselves to a higher standard than promoting a shady site for a penny per post.

What % of active users do you think could give the name of a single DT member? 

The system is really complicated and most people have no reason to bother trying to figure it out.  Default Trust members appear the exact same as any other member (I think, right? I could be wrong)

I have no clue what your job is, how you got it or who gave it to you.  All I know is it says "STAFF" under your name, and that seems pretty important.  Then after every post you make, it says "Betcoin.ag The Most Trusted Bitcoin & Litecoin Casino."


I've asked you several times now and haven't gotten a direct answer.  Why won't you remove Betcoin ad from your signature?

You're acting as if you trust everyone until it's been proven you shouldn't.  I know you are more intelligent than most, so I don't have to explain how ridiculous that is.


Ok, I'd really appreciate any specific reasons my evidence is not conclusive so I can have a chance to clarify. I've played 8 million hands of online poker in my life, and many of the issues involve stuff that non-poker players may not get, like rakeback, rake structure, satellite structure, ethical standards re: enforcing rules, dealing with cheaters, etc.

In the mean time, I suggest any trusted member to ask their campaign manager why they removed all the data from previous campaign periods, only share the data with members who request it and have kicked a member from their campaign for sharing it with me.  (or you can probably figure it out by reading this post:https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15142143#msg15142143 )

The paytable being updated/corrected only resolves the specific issue that was originally brought up by the OP of the thread claiming non-payment of the jackpot, since that thread was created, several other issues have come to light.

It appears that the jackpots are being paid out in a pattern that is unprobable, to the extent that it is fair to say that there is a serious problem with how BetSoft pays out jackpots. This issue is amplified by the fact that it is not possible to verify your "rolls" (bets) on BetSoft games. There are a number of articles on what appears to be online gambling sites warning about this issue (1 (https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games), 2 (https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games), 3 (http://vegasclick.com/online/betsoft-jackpot-issue), 4 (http://www.gpwa.org/forum/casinolistings-issues-betsoft-gaming-warning-227986.html), 5 (https://www.casinolistings.com/forum/gambling/online-casinos/28043/questioning-betsoft-jackpots?page=1#comment-48049) -- some of these may be somewhat duplicated).

BetSoft also appears (https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2014/07/betsoft-loses-alderney-gaming-license) to have lost their "Alderney Gaming License".

These issues appear to be severe enough so that bodiva (the largest online casino) has removed (http://archive.is/G0N3M#selection-1407.1-1407.107) BetSoft games from their site.

BetCoin has specifically dealt with the issue regarding jackpots themselves, so they cannot deny that they are aware of the issue. As mentioned above, bodiva has apparently removed their BetSoft games from their casino.

Regarding the other casinos, yes they should be aware of the situation, however I can understand if they are not, and I can understand if it would take a long time for someone with the appropriate authority and expertise (this might be two different people) gets the message that there are issues with BetSoft.

There is also a thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1322261.0) that lists some fairly serious concerns about BetCoin.ag that are not BetSoft specific. 

There is no reason to make an example out of Lauda (although it appears that is what she wants currently), nor anyone else for that matter. The best resolution would be for Lauda to remove the signature and get on with her life.

Addressing a complaint that you are advertising what someone believes to be a scam should be your number one priority, and should take priority over anything else in your backlog of things to get done. When I was acting as escrow for a signature campaign (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1021240.0;all) for a site that turned out to be a scam, I PM'ed all of the participants letting them know that they were "officially" promoting a scam, and that they had the option of receiving payment for the posts they had made to date if they removed their signature, and I received an ~instant response from ~all of the participants, all of which (except one) removed their signatures. When "bitcoin black Friday" was uncovered as being a scam, theymos looked into the situation ~immediately, and addressed it ~immediately. I see no reason why you should not do the same.   

^^the above post was found in another thread discussing betcoin

This quote is from March of this year, it is now July. If you are outright not going to look into the situation then you should just come out and say so explicitly instead of saying "I will look into it later". If you are not going to look into claims of the site you are advertising for ~4 months then it should be safe to say that you are not going to look into it at all!

I concur with this (fair point on the second sentence).

I can't answer that, thus you have a fair point.

The same applies the other way around: All I know is that you're a random member who's demanding that I remove their signature based on inconclusive evidence. You may very well have some history with them that I'm not aware of (an example).

I don't have to burn someone at a stake beforehand though.

Please talk about EcuaMobi in regards to that.

No, it shouldn't. The service in question would be negatively rated if it was a clear scam and that was not the case at the time (which is what I checked while entering, and after getting the PM). If I kept prioritizing things every time I got a message from a random member, I wouldn't have time to do anything.

How about you stop talking nonsense? I've joined Betcoin 6 days ago.

Re: Betsoft issues

The coingaming sites, bitstarz, betchain and a few others are indeed continuing to offer Betsoft slots, including jackpots.  But they have limited the denominations down to .02, .05 and .1 mBtc (used to offer .25, .5 and 1 as well)

Betcoin, on the other hand, continues to advertise a total of  BTC4,215.745 in progressive Jackpots on their front page.  However when you add them all up individually (as of a few days ago) it was BTC2,978.573 I've only been able to find record of one single progressive win since Betcoin has opened.  It happened in July of 2014, player "btc2014" won 3,800 mbtc progressive jackpot at 3D Slot Greedy Goblins." I posted this info last week with more details here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.msg15520409#msg15520409)

If someone wants to volunteer and go ask Betcoin to confirm how many progressive winners there have been, whether they have BTC4,200 in jackpots or only BTC3,000 set aside.  Also, we should wonder where the bitcoins are, right? They will not give theymos a direct answer if he asked, I am sure of it.

---

Edit: I  am happy to see lauda has removed the signature.  Thank you Lauda, I hope you understand my only motivation was to prevent uninformed users from thinking a staff member was claiming Betcoin should be trusted, and perhaps the spreading awareness of the Betcoin issues  would not be a bad thing.  Nothing more.

I'd like to continue discussing the benefits of holding other signature campaign members more accountable in the future, not sure if I should lock this thread and take it somewhere else or not though.  Will edit Title in the mean time.

Well done Lauda,  you have removed the signature ad :).


That's sure, it was just a sarcastic post (did you noticed the final /s?).

Hey Twitchy nice job.
Seriously, I thought this thread would just be like all the others with betcoin supporters pretending to be even dumber than they actually are.  Nice surprise.

Well I guess Lauda wasnt technically a betcoin supporter.  Guess thats why it ended ok.

Sorry but I never had such a stupid conversation with that TwitchySeal.




Best regards.

DUDE WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK ? YOU JUST EDITED YOUR POST AND YOU WERE NOT TOO QUICK IN DOING THAT ! I read the actual post and it was way too off or say distant from this one.Dear Roslinpl,I have not archived that post but if you you have the courtesy to post the same comments,I'd appreciate it.And I read your post like 3 times so I'm aware what its contents were.Please post the same comment you posted before editing the post. 

This is why Forum has an "EDIT" function so you can edit your post.

Yes it was way longer because I had enough of this TwitchySeal but I decided to edit my post because I don't need to share my feelings to you if I don't feel like I want to.

Remove the EDIT function! God damn!


and stop swearing :) please ... behave yourself.

https://archive.is/gn6Zm

http://img.michaeljacksonspictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/popcorn-blank.gif

That is what a 12 year old kid would say.I'm sure you're a grown up.That is now how stuff works around the world,especially when you're representing a company directly/indirectly.Though I have no interest in the case but you did mentioned that "You will quit your job as a campaign manager for betcoin if someone shows at least one proof that they have been scammed by betcoin " right ? Though these weren't your exact words but that's what it implied.And like a gentlemen I request you to stick to your words.

Where did your signature go, if you don't mind me asking?

Ohh much over 30! :) I don't need to grow up anymore, trust me.

But you need to learn how to behave to others. Indeed my friend.

Thank you for removing the Betcoin advertisement rosilin, I know you were in a tough spot.

Oh please, Lord have a mercy,

You are trolling the Betcoin.ag just because someone has paid you for doing that or because you are mentally ill. Because you spend whole day on trolling them. This is sick I must say.
And also you are an ignorant, you cannot even write my forumname in a correct way.

(same to cryptosmoker)

My final words about you and this whole situation.

A tough spot between calling you a lying, scamming paid troll idiot, or giving up his pay cheque?




http://img.michaeljacksonspictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/popcorn-blank.gif


Oh and mentally ill now!

Wow, I always assumed you just made a typo during registration.  I'm very sorry roslinpl.

What about when Betcoin overraked their players on ALL cash game tables for a long period of time?  And then refused to refund anyone for months and finally relented and said they would refund players if they showed absolute proof that they were overraked (when they could very easily run a database parse to look for how much everyone was overraked), but they would take money AWAY from the players if they determined that the player's "benefited" from Betcoin overraking them.  They made this announcement OVER three months after the period where they stole the money from players and of course would only consider refunding players that they stole from if the player reached out and contacted them.

So they stole money, and after three months of harassment said they would refund the stolen money IF a player saw their post about it (which was immediately buried with other self promotion), and of course they threatened to take MORE money if any player asked for their money back.  This in no way shape of form can be considered anything other than a scam.  You can read about this situation in more detail in Twitchy's Scam Accusation thread or the main Betcoin thread, although this took place over a period of 5 months so I'm shocked you don't know about it.

I feel like because of what you said, it's fair to assume that you will be stepping down as the Campaign Manager within a day, right?  Gotta stick to your word.  If you don't, I think it's fair for people to neg rep you since it's obvious that you can't be trusted, right?

Stop cramping Lauda's style. ::)

You should not rely on other people leaving negative trust when deciding to advertise for a company. It is ultimately your moral responsibility if someone were to get scammed as a result of you advertising for such company. If you are unable, or unwilling to research a concern that you are advertising a scam on an expedited basis, or if you are unwilling to research the legitimacy of a company prior to advertising for them, then your workload should either be significantly reduced or terminated.

Betcoin also did have numerous negative ratings from multiple users several months prior to last week, all with references. I don't think it would be difficult to look into them and reasonable conclude that betcoin.ag is a very shady site.

You were aware of accusations against BetCoin months ago, but between then and now you have not had a chance to look into them being legitimate prior to you starting to advertise for them.

Funny to see how staff member can be bullied out of wearing a signature. And all this done by people from competing casinos in efforts to eliminate competition.



Jason's case with jackpot was settled, and he was paid and satisfied, atleast until he wanted more money..






One would think that would be the end of it, but no, people have realised that they can exploit this situation and reroute traffic from betcoin.ag to them.
That's when more of opened threats started happening :





It's more than obvious that Lutpin, a crypto-games manager is abusing the position on DT, not to mention morale of conflict of interests in this case.

so he has become a thug on here now ? and he decides what is acceptable on forum ?


Open a petition in Reputation. Remember you need support , you alone shouting is a waste of time. Convince all the participants.

That's why you don't give gun's to little one's cause their 2 inch cock gets erect too often.

I have no clue what you are trying to say because you are mixing horrible metaphors, but I wouldn't count on theymos supporting Betcoin anytime soon.

Prove it, Twitchy may have a signature on his profile, but that's not even related to gambling. The accusations made by TwitchySeal against Betcoin has been supplemented with evidence to my satisfaction. Edit: I'm just wondering why how this is about the forum at all(this is me assumign what meta is about.) Edit2: sorry for the amounts of edits I did to this post. Edit3: Also, the second part's redundant considering that's the money that he was supposed to be owed for winning the jackpot.

Correct. Nobody other then theymos has rights to say what is acceptable or not . The signature campaign & casino is their service & as clearly stated by the admin the forum doesn't has any TOS on how to.

If some idiot thinks that theymos is not advertising them & hence it is not acceptable on forum then its obvious that his senseless brain is not able to understand anything of logic. Theymos could actually waste all the ad spots, it's his call.

The negative rating is because you think the person is shady etc etc.. not just because u think it is unacceptable on forum llol lol lol.You are definitely not the one to decide that.

as we all have seen blazed was enjoying the drama & the only solution to ajareselde or participants problem is by making an appeal to remove the person from Default.

Users should be held responsible for who they choose to advertise on this forum.  

Thats the point I'm trying to make in this thread.

Signature campaigns give sites credibility.  So does advertising on this forum through paid ads.  The fact that Theymos denied Betcoin.ag from advertising on this forum is totally relevant information that should be considered when making your own opinion on the situation.  But in the end, we each have our own opinion of the situation and have the right to leave whatever trust we see fit.

Personally I don't think "I don't know enough about the site thats paying me to advertise for them to decide whether or not they are trustworthy" is a valid defense for advertising a questionable site.

If anyone has a problem with Lutpin, please research Betcoin.ag before jumping to the conclusion that he's just being a bully here for his own enjoyment.  Betcoin.ag has refused to address numerous serious issues for over a year now. For the past 9 months they have usedtheir signature campaign to create the illusion that they are transparent and willing to answer any and all questions.  When, in reality, they are ignoring many of the real players on their site.

If anyone has any questions about the issues, please ask me or anyone familiar with the world of online poker/gambling to clarify.

Just a small point. Theymos did not accept ads from bitmixer. But Bitmixer's signature campaign is alive and kicking.
The forum did carry ads of Bitcoin Black Friday, which turned out to be a scam.
So we shouldn't be linking everything to the forum's ad policy.

Exactly. What theymos does is his call, not mine & not anybody Else's. Someone is a fan of him ? sure follow him but don't censor others to do it too.

---

Fortune jack openly lied about their video contest & didn't payed the 50+ btc bonuses but nobody has problems with them. Their campaign runs smoothly too.

'Extorting participants & saying what is acceptable and what is not' is not your right.What duties do you fulfill so you get the rights to say me what is wrong or what is acceptable ? do u pay my taxes ? do u pay my rent ? do u pay forum bills ? do u pay forum taxes ? do you come and speak in the court for me ? updating that fucking signature thread are your Duties ? are you even fucking serious ?

Even people who have never promoted ponzi received negative trust in the past...
I'm among them...
now it is ptoven that my site were never a ponzi...
but my red trust is always here...and the red trusters are disappeared...
so is life...what can you do against?
Nothing...

Telling people what I think is or is not acceptable is my right. Trusting or untrusting someone based on their actions is my right.

If you don't like what I think or do, then untrust me. 

 Same with Luptin.

Just because more people trust Luptin than me doesn't mean you have to or that he has any more rights than me.

Lutpin could of easily just neg repped all of them immediately.  I suspect (not speaking for him) he didn't because he doesn't want to create drama.

 Do you have any relevant questions?

By your logic, Bitcointalk.org is endorsing every company they've ever allowed to advertise.  Get a grip on reality Twitchy.

Here's how some of my players feel about his posts in my thread yet he continues to spam for malicious reasons, and he's even acknowledged to me he's purposely being malicious and "attacking" me.







When a player of mine posted this:


He immediately quoted a review that he made over 1 year ago in an attempt to shame him.  But that was 1 year ago, so clearly that means his opinion of the poker room has changed.



And also another example of Twitchy attacking my players.  When one of my players made this comment in the SWC thread, a totally valid comment:


Twitchy sarcastically assumed he was "shilly" and then used one of his alternates/co-conspirator to give him a bad feedback, the same alternate he used to give me a bad feedback after he already gave me a malicious false feedback awhile ago.


https://i.gyazo.com/606bc054d912396c5222b0942f6e3e6f.png



Some more of my players telling him to stop spamming my service thread and their opinions of him:



If he has Asperger's or any other mental disability, he shouldn't be in the position he's in, cause his hit or miss tactics of calling out people and businesses could really hurt someone.  His obnoxiousness and mental instability pretty much outweighs his "scam alerts."  

There's more players who've spoken out about him, and people have said stuff to me in private about him which I won't post, but the reason he started to upset me was not because of his issues with Betcoin and Betsoft.  I personally believe Betsoft was incredibly unethical in the way they handled the Jasonort situation.  But he continues to attack my rakeback program by spamming the Betsoft issue and bringing up old poker room issues (that he had gotten wrong anyway).


Some evidence of Twitchy having alternates:







His actions aren't any better than the recipients of his accusations.  He abuses the little power that he's gained from sitting at the computer nearly 24/7 and calling out businesses with his hit or miss tactics.  

He clearly knew that the CardsChat review of Betcoin Poker had already been removed, but he continued posting it everywhere as if it was still valid.  Anyone with common sense could see that that review was virtually gibberish.

https://i.gyazo.com/7d577207c7fa606d62b0391e23db4153.png

He infers that the reason it was removed was because Betcoin bribed them, but he's got absolutely no proof.  And even if Betcoin did bribe them, that just means he's posting the review of a company that accepts bribes as if it has merit.

He assumes that just because some players are outraged at him, it is the work of Betcoin.  That is not true, the reason I began noticing him was because he continued to spam my thread, and lately with casino related issues that has nothing to do with my rakeback service nor the poker room.

PS: There's a lot more cases in the past where Twitchy had been adamant that he's correct and it turned out that his assumption was wrong.  

Xiao, you have a reputation thread to attack me in.  Remember? [Beware] TwitchySeal: Abuses his Rep, replies to his own posts with alts, etc (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1554617.0)

I'm defending myself there. 

Thank you for further confirming my doubts that you are shill account of betcoin.ag competitor.   :-X

Just like Lutpin (manager of crypto-games (or more ?) ) , you are deep into conflict of interests here, and it's obvious from your sick engagement in attack
on particulary betcoin.ag and not any other sites using betsoft software that you have your own personal interest in seeing them being hurt.

Who are you two to force me into anything ?
Who are you to bully me and other betcoin.ag signature campaign members with open threats?

--

I am here 5 fucking years, and i can tell you people that centralization of this forum never was worse then it is now.
Decentralization forum based on centralized trust rating network, my god. This is exactly what created this atmosphere of company shills that lurk around the
forum dealing with DT to top up their trust and to selectively choose in other people's name who's right and who's wrong, and what you should and should not say.

This is school example of extortion, so stop lying to yourself that you're the good guy here, you're not.

Shill or not AJ, TwitchySeals has made some pretty valid points with damning evidence and evidence don't lie, unless you want to say that said evidence was fabricated? Calling Lutpin and Twitchy shill of some competitor won't make the evidence go away. Also, how do you account for the fact that some people agree with him, dooglus, blazr, Quickseller, and Aswan to name a few. Edit: I now see that betcoin has moved to a moderated thread.

just for yourself not for forum. You are not forum, you are a user.

Please tell me why you cannot do that ? why do you want to advertise your opinion ? just untrust the participants .

anyways, I clearly knew how things were going to be & i quietly got away/silent . So please continue,its none of my problems.

I've played over 10 million hands of poker online. 

Currently I play on the most regulated sites in the world (in New Jersey) and also at a few skins that offer WPN tournaments.

I was a player on Seals with Clubs from the pond and puddle days but barely play there anymore.

Regulated gaming has a restricted potential that sickens me.

The current state of unregulated gaming sickens me.

I am trying to make change, I have no allegiance to any site, only  to the future of Online Poker and Bitcoin.

I've never asked a single person to trust me.

I'm willing to help any online poker player or gambler as best I can, and I have helped many.

I've started a thread to better the future of Bitcoin Poker https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1504778.0;topicseen

I've called out many scummy casinos, not just Betcoin.

Hey, what happened to shangerlaa? Did he brain hemmorage? or sell his account?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=482945;sa=showPosts

I have not seen any evidence, credible or otherwise that TwitchySeal is in any way affiliated with any casino at all, let alone betcoin.

On the other hand, that signature of yours shows very clearly that you are receiving payments from betcoin.ag for at the minimum of posting with their signature, if not for something more ::)

That's how Betcoin Employees act.  They make up lies (and sometimes pay others to say them) and lob ad hominem attacks because they can't defend their positions without saying "Betcoin pays me so therefore I have to support them". 

If they were honest with themselves, they would say what those of us who speak out against Betcoin's shadyness are saying, which is that Betcoin has a good idea with horrible execution and they need to clean up their act so that they can thrive.  That's what they don't get...people like me don't want Betcoin to fail, we want the exact opposite!  A safe, trustworthy, reliable place to make money on.  Ignoring problems doesn't get to that end, though.  Facing the problems head on, taking responsibility, rectifying mistakes, and not repeating them is what they need to do to thrive.

But instead we get multiple shuttered and censored threads. 

I would never support a company just because they "pay for my signature", and I am more then willing to give my opinion on matters regardless of if I am receiving payment or not.

I can see however why betcoin would want to pay for Lauda's signature (which is what this thread was originally about), as Lauda is very good at "holding the company line" regardless of the facts that counter what he is saying, and clearly has no problems with keeping a closed mind in discussions.

I'm receiving normal payout for my signature spance, like any member of that campaign, sorry to disappoint.

It is my belief that TwitchySeal and Lutpin are deeply affiliated with crypto-games.net, and are selectively targeting betcoin.ag and trying to bully people into obeying what they want.

Same company that suddenly appeared on your signature space, even tho the campaign was closed/full. Same thing happened with another relatively high trusted member.
It's obvious that you were approached *cough* (bought) *cough* in hope to sway you to help them spread bullying stance towards other members.

Twitchy has nothing to do with crypto-games. I doubt he even visited the website once.
I'm managing a campaign for them, aswell as I manage campaign for other sites (777Coin or Bitvest, to name two more).
Furter, I'm a moderator of chat and regular player on the site, if that makes me deeply affiliated with them, so be it.

Quickseller is no part of the campaign under my management.
The deal with quickseller is independently and a result of an auction bid on their signature space being made by DogecoinMachine some time ago.

DebitMe contacted me about getting a space in the signature campaign, not the other way around.
Feel free to check back with them and let them confirm this.

Just because that works for you doesn't mean other users work like that.
Quickseller had a problem with the way betcoin.ag acted before they advertised for cg, and if nothing changes on betcoins end,
that will stay the same even after the deal between them and cg runs out.

Some time ago.. Yeah.. Surprised you didn't say "ages ago"


I'm not saying QS is now your slave, but it sure is more appealing when he wears crypto-games signature in this crypto-games - betcoin.ag war you seek.

I know Quickseller for some time now and we dont always agree and had several discussions on several topics. I never felt they changed their opinion with their signature though. Maybe you can put some quotes to your accusations, because right now it looks like you are just increasing your post counter without saying anything of substance.

I didn't make this about crypto-games, there's no connection between me criticizing the way betcoin.ag acts on various matters and me working for crypto-games.
You're trying to pull in crypto-games, because you can't seem to defend betcoin.Ag without it.

As for bidding on QS' signature, that's nothing new and certainly not connected to this.

You should read from the start before you say such a thing.
I did not accuse QS of anything, therefore i don't need to back anything up. What i said was that it's funny and appealing that his signature was bought by crypto-games
now that this debate is on, talk about "accidental" timing.

Lutpin replied with :

Which is funny because it happened just yesterday.

So you are way off when you say that i'm not saying anything of substance of this debate, you're just not seeing if from the right angle.

I did.


Yes, you implied a connection. I question your connection based on my past experience with QS.


If there would a right angle it wouldnt be a discussion.

I was merely pointing out that you are in fact receiving payment from betcoin.ag, while there is no evidence that I am aware of that suggests that twitchyseal is receiving any payment from any betcoin.ag competitor. Based on this alone, it looks more like you are being paid to shill for betcoin, not that twitchyseal is being paid to harm their competitors.

I had auctioned my signature space, and the owner of crypto games won the auction. You were free to bid if you so choose, however one requirement is that I not advertise what I view to be a scam. I actually had a negative rating against the owners of crypto games for several months due to an issue with how they handled certain payouts; I removed my rating after they remediated the issue.

The company that I am advertising for does not have the ability to influence my position on any given debate. I form my opinion based on the facts that are available to me, and my own judgement. There is no amount of money that could possibly convince me to say that something is my opinion when in fact it is not.

Edit: I would also note that the only people defending betcoin are those who are wearing their signature. This is very similar to how the idiots who were advertising the scam site DaDice were blindly supporting them.

I understand what you're saying and i too believe it is true that you probably are not acting in favor of site you advertise, but i don't think the company that bought
your signature space hoped for the same.

I am by far not a shill, but rather just one of the members on who a clan of people tried to use bullying tactics  to make us do what they want, how they want, and when they want.
The fact that i don't react well on threats is one of my bigger flaws, so i apologize if sometimes i get too carried away.


EDIT: Do you realize that, for example, crypto-games.net that you advertise -  is an illegal gambling site with absolutely no gambling licence ? (Just like Da-Dice was)

Among the people in the DT network that have left betcoin.ag negative trust, one I have zero respect for due to his perpensidy to help his friends steal millions of dollars from people that trust him, one I believe is too immature to have any serious amount of authority, and one I trust. I can say that I am not part of any clan that is against betcoin.

Illegal in which jurisdiction? Which jurisdiction's licenses are they missing? Are they accepting players from any of these jurisdictions? Don't answer these questions because I do not care.

If you uncover evidence that cryptogames is cheating players, is not crediting deposits, is not paying out withdrawals, or is cheating investors, then please let me know, and I will promptly investigate, and remove my signature if I find the evidence to be credible, and counterpoints do not outweigh the evidence.

edit again panther. I am not.

;D ;D ;D

Just like Betcoin is.

Also, I'd like to point out that if you live in the US and are advertising as an affiliate for Betcoin (or any other illegal US-facing gambling site), you are actively breaking US law.  Playing on these sites is fine, but when you act as an employee, and especially one that is trying to recruit people to play on the site, that's illegal.

I must have missed your post when you said that you thought that Betcoin.ag was in the right.

The only posts that I have seen of yours in this thread is that the extortionist moderator Lauda has the right to advertise what he wants and if the OP disagrees with Lauda advertising for betcoin then the OP can distrust Lauda.

If the moderator is extortionist then the OP can extort him in reply as well. There is no question of betcoin ;D


You are prolly right but not all participants are defending betcoin as a casino, some of them are also against other people censoring them.

I do not think that any casino that blatantly deletes and ignores posts [that poke at the casino's ethics and ask important questions towards them] should be trusted. As for people defending said casino, if they have been given the information and are still ignorant to it (or equally bad, are shills) and are still willing to advertise for it, which advocates a product, then it is clear that negative feedback can be applied. Warnings were given - it is not as if Lutpin is not offering the signature campaign members a choice.

Consider if this situation were to have happened physically and not digitally: if you were advertising for a real casino that did what Betcoin has (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1322261.msg13507632#msg13507632), then shouldn't you too receive backlash at least in some form? It shows that you're associating yourself with a provider that is ethically wrong.

I'd also like to redirect this whole Betcoin talk down to BetSoft Non-Payment of Jackpot (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.0) (somewhat active) and Betcoin.ag Retaliates (Collection of scam accusations against me) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1554082.msg15608055#msg15608055) for anything against TwitchySeal and people defending Betcoin.ag (and Betsoft).


Oh, and finally: Betcoin.ag has a new signature campaign thread (which was previously probably the only way to actually talk to them about problems) which is now self-moderated to protect against spam (issues directed at them)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1571148.msg15778933#msg15778933

stop with the idiotic closed minded "I think you don't think" explanations & show me all you got. Otherwise you are a liar pussycat.

What does that post have to do with anything? OgNasty's involvement in Betcoin? That can't be used as justification. I'd also like to state again that Betcoin created the self-moderated thread to censor content that can be used against them. If only they would reply.
I've already linked the master list in my post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1322261.msg13507632#msg13507632.